User talk:Tony1

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Link to my English Wikipedia talk page

Hello, Tony1! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. jan (talk) 15:13, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Good editing job on Wikivoyage:Goals and non-goals. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:27, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
My welcome too. Thanks for getting right into it. --Inas (talk) 09:42, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Hyphens in dates[edit]

While it may be more typographically elegant, isn't it easier to use a hyphen rather than an N-dash or whatever in dates? Aren't we making a rod for our own backs going down this route, Tony? -- Alice 06:37, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Block revert and abbreviations[edit]

Hi Tony and welcome to the WikiVoyage project. I note you have recently been quite active on the project and have been discussing some issues at User_talk:Globe-trotter#U_dot_S_dot, I have left some comments there. I hope you will understand they are made with only good intent and concern. Hope to see some more of you here on WV. cheers -- Felix (talk) 12:50, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Wikivoyage:Geographical hierarchy[edit]

Regarding this: You'll note I only reverted one instance of United States back to United States of America. That one instance was carefully chosen: it occurred within a representation of our breadcrumb trail, which currently will display United States of America for any U.S. destination. If you want to propose renaming the article, that would be one thing, but the sample breadcrumb trail should reflect current reality. LtPowers (talk) 14:44, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind if we change United Kingdom to United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. And Australia to Commonwealth of Australia. It's really important for backpackers to have the formal, legal names every time they occur. Tony (talk) 23:48, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
You have missed the point. The breadcrumb IS United States of America. If you want to change the breadcrumb, then discuss that, but you can't have the documentation saying the breadcrumb is what the breadcrumb isn't. See Wikivoyage:Breadcrumb navigation for more. --Inas (talk) 23:52, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
Tony, I explicitly said I intentionally left almost all of your changes (of "United States of America" to "United States") in place, and I gave a very very specific reason for reverting the one, single instance I did. You proceeded to completely ignore what I wrote and instead responded as if I'd reverted every one of your shortenings. That is not very productive. LtPowers (talk) 02:24, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Times and dates[edit]

I understand you don't like Wikivoyage's current time and date format policy, but ignoring it blithely and revising eg. Melbourne's times and dates into precisely the wrong format is not acceptable. Please gain consensus for changes first. Jpatokal (talk) 02:22, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Times is a sitewide policy, and you've been on Wikipedia long enough to understand that these things matter. Think of it as a client brief: you may not like their house style, but if you're going to edit here, you either have to accept the brief or change it.
And for what it's worth, I have no particular attachment to large-cap AM/PM and would happily support a sitewide switch over -- but we need to get a few more people than just us two to agree on that. Jpatokal (talk) 08:06, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Heads up![edit]

Some people seem to think I'm really you! --90.215.245.164 11:05, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Changing the font and colour of examples in our MoS[edit]

Since you're interest in this topic goes back to at least December 2008, you might like to comment at Template_talk:Xt#Why_is_this_needed.3F, Tony? --W. Franke-mailtalk 18:17, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Your recent edits[edit]

Tony - insofar as you have suggestions for improving Wikivoyage your comments are welcome, but this isn't really the proper forum to state that you think WV was a waste of WMF funds and is doomed to fail [1]. While your opinion is of course valid, surely you recognize that repeatedly demeaning the hard work people have put into this project is bound to elicit strong reactions? I'd ask that you please remember that the primary goal of people here is to create the best possible travel guide, and ask that you try to refrain from comments that are counter-productive to achieving that goal. -- Ryan • (talk) • 03:01, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

The travellers' pub seems to be the ideal place to engage more editors. Part of the reason this site has become dysfunctional is because most regular editors don't participate in discussions. I'm sorry if people find it threatening to be challenged, but that is necessary when faced with entrenched stasis. It's far from being "the best possible travel guide", and these entrenched objections to change, and a dysfunctional approach to consensus gathering, ensure that that goal will never be achieved. Far from it. Tony (talk) 03:05, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
It's very frustrating that you seem unable to understand the difference between making suggestions for changes and saying "since you won't do what I want, you're gonna die." We all need to be a little less attached to our egos and a little more focused on trying harder to persuade people of things we consider important. Is it really impossible for you to understand this, or will you insist on reacting hostilely or defensively every time someone tries to reason with you on this? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:14, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
I see: you're the one "reasoning" with me. I'm the one who doesn't "understand". How more skewed and ego-centric could you get? More entrenchment. More "shut up and accept the way we do it". I don't. Tony (talk) 03:17, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
So the answer to my question, of course, is "Yes." Good day. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:21, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I've exhausted my weekly WV time budget confronting entrenched resistance here. It augurs very badly for my assessment of the prospects of this site. Tony (talk) 03:23, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
Understand that in no way do I feel that it is "threatening to be challenged", but if your goal is truly to engage other editors be aware that on a site that is driven by a need to find common ground, most editors here are likely to ignore someone who is combative. I've read many of the comments you've added in the past here, but given your tone and obvious disdain for this site didn't feel that it would be a productive use of time to try and engage you and have instead participated in more civil discussions; perhaps the reason why you feel that your comments aren't being addressed is that others have done the same. -- Ryan • (talk) • 04:01, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
"Understand that ...". Hmmm, we're down to ordering me about, are we? I don't like your tone. And constructing proposals for change as "combative" is part of the strategy to resist all change. I'm done talking in circles for the moment. The more I'm here, the more I think this site and its long-time community are terminal. Convince me otherwise. Tony (talk) 04:07, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
Hey Tony. What specific proposal did you make that was not supported? Travel Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:11, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
I haven't been around here much lately, but as far as I can tell, it has to do with making American English the default language for articles. Which Tony, being Ozian, is naturally not going to favor. He has already been central in getting more unbiased and internationally-oriented EngVar standards adopted at en.WP, so there's no reason not to expect him to work the issue on other wikis as well. —Neotarf (talk) 18:27, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
Yes, but he has to do so civilly and with a respect for our established editors, conventions, and processes. He failed on all three counts; this had nothing to do with the substance of his proposals and everything to do with the ridiculously combative way he presented them. LtPowers (talk) 19:15, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
This is stupid. I don't know why anyone has wasted any time on it. —203.189.156.207 02:21, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

User ban nomination[edit]

Wikivoyage:User ban nominations#User:Tony1

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:55, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Tony, I've applied a three-day block to your account to allow everyone involved to take a time-out. Since you are not a frequent contributor here hopefully this will not inconvenience you, and that should also give everyone involved time to step back and hopefully gain some distance from what have become emotionally-charged discussions. As I mentioned earlier, while suggestions for improving the site are very welcome, your comment style has been almost universally perceived as combative and is creating a distraction for everyone involved - based on your earlier comments I suspect you would disagree with that assessment, but the fact that discussions have strayed from matters pertaining to the site and into unproductive areas is a testimony to the strong reactions your words have elicited. Regarding your earlier comment that "constructing proposals for change as "combative" is part of the strategy to resist all change", I would propose that we can easily put that theory to the test in three days if you would like: if you have any specific proposals for change, let's discuss them without any blanket statements that this site was a waste of money from the WMF, without accusations that the editors here are unable to change, without repeated statements about the inevitable demise of WV, and without threats to "spend considerable effort in broadcasting to people in the WMF movement just what kind of closed, retrogressive, bullying mentality dominates here", and I would suggest that those change proposals will not be "resisted" and will instead be addressed productively. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:15, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
Right, you'll never see me again. (Oh, you'll see me, but it won't be on this site.) It is morally reprehensible, and demonstrates a clear strategy to get rid of critical voices—anyone who dares to stand up to the boys' club here.

From now on, I'll be deeply committed to letting Wikimedians know what a corrupt and bullying power structure has developed here. This is so dysfunctional it is laughable. Tony (talk) 16:30, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the statement that you will be "deeply committed to letting Wikimedians know what a corrupt and bullying power structure has developed here" is a reference to using your position with the Signpost, but if so I'd like to request that you have a neutral third-party review this incident before anything is published. In my (and others) attempt to resolve this incident objectively, it looks like your comments of the past few days were meant not to engage in improvement of the site, but instead to provoke the community of editors here by making inflammatory statements and then repeatedly accusing the "bullying power structure" of being xenophobic and attempting to "get rid of critical voices" when anyone requested that you try to be more civil, and under those circumstances I think the reaction was similar to what would have been encountered in most other WMF projects. -- Ryan • (talk) • 20:01, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
Your actions here have been aggressive, unjust, and ultimately self-destructive. They are symptomatic of a pattern seen in quite a few small wikis that are taken over by a clique of editors whose leadership focuses not on optimising content and presentation, and encouraging new ideas and adaptation to remain competitive, but in maintaining a closed and relatively static community that supports their own power. The English Wikinews is a prime example of this—somewhat worse than en.WV, but let's not compare with quite such a low base.

Now that the full extent of bovver-boy group bullying has been exposed in Wikivoyage, I regret having worked hard last year to provide favourable coverage of the Internet Brands bullying—behaviour that I see you and others now replicating. And I'm not the only one: I was rung yesterday by another editor who has clearly been the victim of lazy, untested presumptions and is similarly distressed. Yet another WV person emailed me a message that confirms my suspicions about very unhealthy developments in the culture, but as apologist claimed that it's just "going through a bad patch".

The names of perpetrators roll out, such as LtPowers, this chief-sheriff gun-them-down Andre person, PeterFitzgerald (apparently still around), and yourself. I'm sure these individuals have done good work, but it unravels before our eyes in this violent context. Just remember when you participate in this walled fiefdom behaviour that had it not been for the WMF you may well have been bankrupted personally and lost your IT business. We all felt sorry for you at the time, but the current scenario has painted you in a very different light. Why any WMF site would be quick to foment enemies by blocking people for trumped-up reasons is a wonder just in terms of its self-interest, let alone issues of fairness to individuals. You may censor me on this site, but you can't censor me on other sites. Indeff me, please, because it would make utterly no difference: I'm not coming back to this disgusting environment. This is a good start to the undoing of the site. Incidentally, the Signpost publishes only balanced material in its "News and notes" and is keenly aware of COI issues (although this is not necessarily the case in its occasional opinion pages). Tony (talk) 04:11, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Civility[edit]

It may interest you to know that

1) your (second) proposed user ban has now been withdrawn and archived by AndreCarrotflower

2) I have now made the changes you proposed at Wikivoyage:Time and date formats nearly 5mo ago since I did not read any opposes there whatever.

If you have the time to make any more constructive proposals I would personally welcome that as a clear sign that a bullying, ignorant, pack mentality here has not prevailed and that we are on course to return to the more welcoming and collegiate attitude that prevailed before the IB takeover. --118.93nzp (talk) 23:33, 10 November 2013 (UTC)