Wikivoyage:Travellers' pub

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Template?[edit]

Tracked in Phabricator (?)
Task T359446

What's up with the templates inserting a completely useless contents block on the left side of every topic? In some cases it produces astoundingly ugly and unusable page layouts (especially for countries and regions). Did somebody do this on purpose? Mrkstvns (talk) 19:15, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you're experiencing. Is this when you're editing or reading? What pages do you see this on? What do you mean by "topic"? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:04, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When reading. I see it on every page on the site: Cities, regions, countries, parks, travel topics, etc.
Gray box with links to all the sections.
Pagebanner
[+] Understand
[+] Get in
[+] Get around
.... Mrkstvns (talk) 21:17, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's a bug, see T359446 on Phabricator. -- Alexander (talk) 21:29, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can see it now. That box is the "Table of Contents". WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:37, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Andyrom75: Do you think you could possibly reinsert that temporary fix you made sometime back? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 12:44, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SHB2000, I've temporary patched Template:Pagebanner. Please, ping me as a reminder when the bug has been solved. Andyrom75 (talk) 15:34, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Andyrom! SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 20:25, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Andyrom75, the bug report says the patch was riding this week's deployment train, so it should be fixed now. (You'll need to double-check that it actually did get fixed; all I can confirm is that the deployment train has been here.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:50, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@WhatamIdoing, thanks for the ping. The server-side changes has been been reverted, so I've done the same with my temporary patch.
Now it seems that the previous behavior has been restored. Andyrom75 (talk) 22:36, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your vigilance, Andyrom! --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 09:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Where did the table of contents go?[edit]

I'm using Vector 2022 skin. I vaguely recalled clicking on the hide button which made the table of contents on the left-hand side disappear. But I can't re-enable it. I already tried "Preferences" -> "Misc" tab and the options in "Table of contents". I do notice that in MediaWiki, there is a button beside the page title to re-enable the "Contents" section but that doesn't seem to be an option here. And oddly enough, talk pages show the table of contents. OhanaUnitedTalk page 04:28, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could this be related to #Template? above? —Granger (talk · contribs) 04:55, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Andyrom75:? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 06:02, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SHB2000, @Mx. Granger, @OhanaUnited, I confirm that this is related to the temporary patch I've applied on #Template?.
Once the bug T359446 will be solved, the patch could be removed and the normal behavior will be restored.
Sorry for the temporary inconvenience. Andyrom75 (talk) 07:34, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, it's understandable. Hopefully the bug should be fixed sooner than later. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 09:12, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for confirming. —The preceding comment was added by OhanaUnited (talk • contribs)
@OhanaUnited, please check if now the "Table of contents" can be shown. --Andyrom75 (talk) 22:39, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes it reappeared. Thanks. OhanaUnitedTalk page 05:54, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Informative status[edit]

I see a that "informative status" has been created as an article category at Wikivoyage:Article status. A discussion took place Wikivoyage talk:Article status#Creating a new status for something in between usable and guide? which seemed to find support for the idea two years ago, but Wikivoyage:Informative articles still refers to the concept as "experimental". I personally support the proposal, but we do need to decide whether we should implement this concept more broadly or withdraw it. If we do approve it, many articles would need to be recategorized over time. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 19:01, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I like the idea of a status in between usable and guide, but I think the criteria for making an article "informative" should be better described. It would be nice if it were at least a little bit more demanding than simply a usable article with at least 3-4 listings. Crikey! All of my "usable" articles meet that low threshold. I think that in order to be considered "informative" there should be a well-written lede and a good "Understand" section that explains what's special about a place (maybe with Infoboxes for cultural traditions, etc.) Just a thought... Mrkstvns (talk) 20:01, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As the proposer, I think it's time to withdraw it. It's a great idea in theory but the logistical challenges of implementing this on a mass-scale has become near-impossible. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 20:30, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is no need to have all eligible articles updated to the new status. That can be done as article status is otherwise checked, given that the status is widely known. The problem is in defining the criteria. In trying to do that, I saw quite some oddness in the present criteria. Can we adjust the criteria at all, making some usable articles revert to outline and some guides to usable (or informative)? If we can, we can do the same with a new status. However, the discussion stalled, it seems with not too much interest from the community. –LPfi (talk) 11:56, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Which is partially why I'm on the side of abolishing this status. Without much community input (I presume the numbers post-COVID will remain like this for a while), it's hard to make bold changes like an entirely new status. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 12:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if I'm being a bit too pessimistic or if I'm biased as the one who initially proposed it. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 12:05, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think if we create a new status, it will be adopted over time. However, we would need to form a new consensus on the qualifications of this article status, IMO. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 14:12, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, we have and it's existed for over two years, but very little has been done on it for cases where the criteria is evident. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 09:41, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we get much value from increasing the number of possible ratings. The fewer categories we have, the less time we'll spend on bureaucracy. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:03, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I guess it's less so the bureaucracy and more so just the time spent to make the status mainstream. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 20:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just don't think there's such a drastic difference between usable, informative and guide for town and small village pages. Take Kuujjuarapik that I created last month while I travelled there. I added practically everything there is about the town. Right now I'm already hung up on whether changing it from usable to guide (because the only thing missing for guide is "go next" one-liners). If we introduce informative and I added the "go next" one-liners, I honestly don't know whether my article is considered to be informative or guide. And I think many editors will also be confused by this somewhat blurred distinction between the two. OhanaUnitedTalk page 06:24, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikivoyage talk:Park article status has some discussion on the issues. If people are interested in getting this forward, I think it is worth skimming through (at least for those working with parks). One should do some analysis about what differs between a just barely usable and a good usable article (of some category), and what holds articles from becoming guide, as I suggest on that talk page. We could make a comment on forgetting about informative in the case of small towns ("just make them guide instead"); for real cities I think there is a huge difference between barely usable and near guide. –LPfi (talk) 07:10, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The status I aim for on any page where I do substantial work is PDG. That means it's Pretty Damn Good, and is a near complete self-sufficient guide to the place. But I almost never upstage beyond "usable" precisely because I don't want the quagmire of definitions and hair-splitting. Another day gone, another town PDG, and tomorrow onto the next. Grahamsands (talk) 22:01, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees 2024 Selection[edit]

You can find this message translated into additional languages on Meta-wiki.
More languages • Please help translate to your language

Dear all,

This year, the term of 4 (four) Community- and Affiliate-selected Trustees on the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees will come to an end [1]. The Board invites the whole movement to participate in this year’s selection process and vote to fill those seats.

The Elections Committee will oversee this process with support from Foundation staff [2]. The Board Governance Committee created a Board Selection Working Group from Trustees who cannot be candidates in the 2024 community- and affiliate-selected trustee selection process composed of Dariusz Jemielniak, Nataliia Tymkiv, Esra'a Al Shafei, Kathy Collins, and Shani Evenstein Sigalov [3]. The group is tasked with providing Board oversight for the 2024 trustee selection process, and for keeping the Board informed. More details on the roles of the Elections Committee, Board, and staff are here [4].

Here are the key planned dates:

  • May 2024: Call for candidates and call for questions
  • June 2024: Affiliates vote to shortlist 12 candidates (no shortlisting if 15 or less candidates apply) [5]
  • June-August 2024: Campaign period
  • End of August / beginning of September 2024: Two-week community voting period
  • October–November 2024: Background check of selected candidates
  • Board's Meeting in December 2024: New trustees seated

Learn more about the 2024 selection process - including the detailed timeline, the candidacy process, the campaign rules, and the voter eligibility criteria - on this Meta-wiki page, and make your plan.

Election Volunteers

Another way to be involved with the 2024 selection process is to be an Election Volunteer. Election Volunteers are a bridge between the Elections Committee and their respective community. They help ensure their community is represented and mobilize them to vote. Learn more about the program and how to join on this Meta-wiki page.

Best regards,

Dariusz Jemielniak (Governance Committee Chair, Board Selection Working Group)

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Wikimedia_Foundation_elections/2021/Results#Elected

[2] https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Committee:Elections_Committee_Charter

[3] https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Minutes:2023-08-15#Governance_Committee

[4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_elections_committee/Roles

[5] Even though the ideal number is 12 candidates for 4 open seats, the shortlisting process will be triggered if there are more than 15 candidates because the 1-3 candidates that are removed might feel ostracized and it would be a lot of work for affiliates to carry out the shortlisting process to only eliminate 1-3 candidates from the candidate list.

MPossoupe_(WMF)19:57, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If anyone is curious what I think would be helpful in Board members, I've put a list of questions at m: User:WhatamIdoing/Board candidates. It always amazes me that some editors believe that fixing thousands of typos on Wikipedia would make a person qualified to set a multi-million dollar budget and lead 600 employees. IMO we need volunteers who understand financial statements and have some general idea of employment law. If you've got some business-related experience and are willing to put in a few hundred unpaid hours for the next three years, please consider volunteering. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:31, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Harrassment[edit]

Apologies to bring this unpleasantness here, however user SHB2000 has a vendetta against me and is harassing me on my talk page (protected for time being). I will be clear - I want no further contact with them, and I would ask the other Admins to counsel them on their behavior. Obviously, I won't contribute to this thread further because I really want no more to do with them Thanks. Andrewssi2 (talk) 10:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To the community, please comment on Wikivoyage:User rights nominations#User:Andrewssi2 (removal) for their abuse of admin privileges and UCoC violations. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 10:45, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And TIL that leaving talk page messages about misuse of rollback was "harassment". --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 10:46, 14 March 2024 (UTC) [comment hidden by LPfi at 11:25, 14 March 2024, comment unhidden on 11:30, 14 March 2024][reply]
Let's keep the discussion on the nomination page. –LPfi (talk) 11:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@LPfi: Why did you hide my comment? At least you could have given me a courtesy notice on my talk page. I will unhide it as there are no policy-based grounds for hiding that comment. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:29, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't think about a courtesy notice having been appropriate. I assume most regulars watch this page and the threads on it they find interesting. I thought making the hiding obvious was enough. Sorry for misinterpreting best practices.
My reason to hide the comment in the first place was that it was making an accusation, which could prompt a response and a thread partly doubling the one linked above. Referrals to discussions elsewhere should generally (and especially if the topic is sensitive or heated) be made as neutrally as possible.
–LPfi (talk) 11:57, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for explaining it through (censoring isn't the best practice for that, though). --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 12:00, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm really disturbed to hear about this. Both of you have been valued admins. I will comment on the linked thread. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As a side note: could someone else possibly not mind editing Andrewssi's comment from "SMB2000" to "SHB2000" – I understand that this was a typo made in good faith but "SMB" is a very inappropriate text slur. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 20:30, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well I hope this doesn't preclude everyone from calling you SMB2000. Brycehughes (talk) 02:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Global ban proposal for Slowking4[edit]

Hello. This is to notify the community that there is an ongoing global ban proposal for User:Slowking4 who has been active on this wiki. You are invited to participate at m:Requests for comment/Global ban for Slowking4 (2). Thank you. Seawolf35 (talk) 19:45, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They have made just one edit here, are indefinitely blocked on five projects and a hasty look shows they might have deserved it. –LPfi (talk) 20:47, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, this ban might be a negative for Wikisource but it is probably for the better for the wider WMF world. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 06:13, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your wiki will be in read-only soon[edit]

Read this message in another language • Please help translate to your language

The Wikimedia Foundation will switch the traffic between its data centers. This will make sure that Wikipedia and the other Wikimedia wikis can stay online even after a disaster.

All traffic will switch on 20 March. The test will start at 14:00 UTC.

Unfortunately, because of some limitations in MediaWiki, all editing must stop while the switch is made. We apologize for this disruption, and we are working to minimize it in the future.

You will be able to read, but not edit, all wikis for a short period of time.

  • You will not be able to edit for up to an hour on Wednesday 20 March 2024.
  • If you try to edit or save during these times, you will see an error message. We hope that no edits will be lost during these minutes, but we can't guarantee it. If you see the error message, then please wait until everything is back to normal. Then you should be able to save your edit. But, we recommend that you make a copy of your changes first, just in case.

Other effects:

  • Background jobs will be slower and some may be dropped. Red links might not be updated as quickly as normal. If you create an article that is already linked somewhere else, the link will stay red longer than usual. Some long-running scripts will have to be stopped.
  • We expect the code deployments to happen as any other week. However, some case-by-case code freezes could punctually happen if the operation require them afterwards.
  • GitLab will be unavailable for about 90 minutes.
This project may be postponed if necessary. You can read the schedule at wikitech.wikimedia.org. Any changes will be announced in the schedule. There will be more notifications about this. A banner will be displayed on all wikis 30 minutes before this operation happens. Please share this information with your community.

Trizek (WMF), 00:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Trizek (WMF), is this hoped to be one minute or so? Or is this expected to be longer than the previous ones even if everything goes perfectly? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:47, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We can't know in advance. This time, some scripts took longer than expected to execute, and the read-only happen a donen of minutes after 14:00 UTC. It lasted 3 minutes though. Trizek (WMF) (talk) 16:31, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Accessibility of map pins / tube map references[edit]

Hey there, I've been slowly preparing Wikivoyage for night mode. On the most part it's looking pretty good for that, but I'm noticing that we have many problematic accessibility issues in the standard version of the site. I'm using https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/wcag-color-contrast-check/plnahcmalebffmaghcpcmpaciebdhgdf to get an overview of the issue in our pages.

  1. Problem 1 - Listing numbers
    In our use of colors for maps - for example the map pins we use e.g. the Do, See etc.. templates we generate boxes with the pin number inside them. In the London article for example "Watch Tennis at Wimbledon" as a gray box with white text. This does not pass WCAG AA ( https://webaim.org/resources/contrastchecker/) so means that text is unreadable to certain users.
  2. Problem 2 - the pins. For the pins themselves, I am not sure of the constraints at play here, but again the colors and backgrounds are not always accessible.
  3. I'm also seeing some accessibility issues in templates like  VIC  where the white text on blue is not accessible to some readers. In this case we can probably switch from white text to black text, or alter the background colors slightly (where possible).

Proposed solutions:

  • I'd like to suggest that we move away from text on backgrounds for this sort of thing. For example instead we could move the color alongside the text it represents like in this example:

https://en.m.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=London&diff=4847875&oldid=4847186&title=London&diffonly=1. Could we do something similar to this work for the See, Do etc.. templates?

  • I think we should provide some better guidelines to editors - particularly in the template namespace. Do we have any existing pages that guide editors around how they use colors on this site?


Thanks in advance for your input and ideas!

Jdlrobson (talk) 22:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can only really comment anything meaningful to your third point, being a major contributor to RINT myself. Editing labels like  VIC  would be highly problematic, as RINT's purpose is to reflect the labelling as it appears in place. The Victoria line simply uses that blue and that white. Switching the colours to anything else would make it more difficult for a reader to recognise the branding when visiting. Besides, a lot of these colours have passed design boards galore - TfL's lines are one of those. A single Chrome plugin flagging it as an accessibility issue is not something I would value over representing reality accurately. There no doubt are some labels that pose genuine accessibility issues, but they are best resolved in a case-by-case scenario.
That said, I did change {{RbE}}, the template responsible for generating the RINT labels, to use red instead of light grey whenever a colour is not defined, as red is the most common line colour. That should resolve the biggest accessibility issue with RINT that can be fixed en-masse.
― Wauteurz (talk) 21:33, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, while it is tempting to change the colours from an accessibility standpoint, changing the colour defeats the entire purpose of the template. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 09:59, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikivoyage:Social media[edit]

This page might need an update. Are any of the social media accounts still active? (none of the 6 users in charge of maintaining WV's FB and X/Twitter accounts are active anymore) --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 09:58, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at it, May 30, 2021 for FB and some date around 3 years ago for X/Twitter (need an account to open the page). Should the English Wikivoyage permanently abandon its social media accounts? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 10:31, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep — Since many people in the world are interconnected with social media (including me, of course), I think the social media accounts of Wikivoyage should be kept as they are obvious platforms to promote our project. We should also venture into the Threads app to promote our project to the Insta users. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 17:31, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree in principle, but those accounts are literally abandoned and there's no way for any of us to take over both the FB and X/Twitter accounts since almost all of users maintaining those accounts have left. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 09:00, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If we can't take over those accounts, then it is better permanently abandoning those accounts in favor of new ones. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 09:45, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are the people who maintained them not contactable? I assume they have other things going on in their lives, but they may be reading their email, and somebody may even have their phone numbers. If so, they should be able to hand over rights to the accounts. Leaving abandoned accounts behind and creating new ones gives a bad image. If we have to create new ones, we need to create some mechanism for the situation not to be repeated (and put a note and link on the old ones, if possible). –LPfi (talk) 10:36, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, I suppose LtPowers might be contactable given they've made sporadic edits both here and on Wikipedia, but all of the others haven't made edits in years (except Andre, who left due to abuse of admin tools on Commons). --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 10:56, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those two both have their email enabled. If their email addresses are stable non-throw-away ones, them not editing doesn't affect being able to reach them. Some in the community may also have personal contacts to them. Similarly with the others. –LPfi (talk) 12:49, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, for heaven's sake, I'm still pingable and emailable. Andrew did such a good job with the Facebook postings that I fell out of the habit, and no one notified me when he stopped doing them. Plus I didn't (and don't) really have the time to keep up with it. I will say that I don't know that we ever got much engagement on Facebook (can't speak to the other social media), but I'm happy to add other people as admins if anyone wants to step forward. Powers (talk) 13:47, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest that at minimum, we post Destination of the Month, Off the Beaten Path and Featured Travel Topic each month. They seem like low hanging fruits, high quality entries and give us something to post about on a regular basis without looking too spammy or bot-like. OhanaUnitedTalk page 19:18, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't disagree, but someone has to write the blurbs. It gets to be a lot for one person. Powers (talk) 19:48, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just use the lead section of those articles as blurbs. No need to reinvent the wheel. OhanaUnitedTalk page 04:16, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Or use the blurbs that will go on the main page. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 04:24, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Early access to the night mode (mobile web, logged-in)[edit]

Hi everyone, as announced in November, the Web team at the Wikimedia Foundation is working on night mode. A very early version of this feature is now available on a small set of wikis. Because there are active technical editors in your community, we have decided to roll it out here. But don't worry, the new feature is not disruptive! (See the "known limitations" section below.) It's important for us to work together with you before we release this feature to a wider audience. Our goals for the early rollout are to:

  • Show what we've built very early. The earlier you are involved, the more your voices will be reflected in the final version
  • Get your help with flagging bugs, issues, and requests
  • Work with technical editors to adjust various templates and gadgets to the night mode

Go to the project page and the FAQ page to see more information about the basics of this project.

Known limitations of the initial release

  • Currently, night mode is only available on mobile, for logged-in users who have opted into advanced mode, as an opt-in feature.
  • Gadgets may initially not work well with night mode and may have to be updated.
  • Our first goal is making night mode work on articles. Special pages, talk pages, and other namespaces have not been updated to work in night mode yet. We have temporarily disabled night mode on these pages.

What we would like you to do (the broad community)

Consider linking to the Recommendations for night mode compatibility on Wikimedia wikis on pages explaining how to format templates and similar pages. Soon, this page will be marked for translation. We would like to emphasize that the recommendations may evolve. For this reason, we are not suggesting to create your local wiki copies of recommendations. At some point, the copy could become different from the original version.

What we would like you to do (template editors, interface admins, technical editors)

When most bugs are solved, we'll be able to make the night mode available for readers on both desktop and mobile. To make this happen, we need to work together with you on reporting and solving the problems.

  1. To turn it on, use the mobile website (for example, this is what the main page looks like on mobile) and go to the settings part of your menu and opt into advanced mode, if you haven't already.  Then, set the color to night. (Later, we will be allowing the device preferences to set night mode automatically).  
  2. Next, go to different articles and look for issues:

Thank you. We're looking forward to your opinions and comments! SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 18:24, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SGrabarczuk (WMF), I'm having a problem with https://night-mode-checker.wmcloud.org/enwikivoyage-mobile-light/ When I click one of the names to uncollapse the list of errors, it uncollapses it, and then opens the page on top of the list. Should that be opening the article in a new tab? WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:38, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hey @WhatamIdoing! Are you asking if the page could be opened in a new tab instead of the same tab? SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 11:33, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's one way to solve my problem. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:56, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see. Well, I was asking because I wasn't sure I understood what the problem was. Could you rephrase the question? SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 23:46, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As a contributor who would like to resolve problems, I want to look at the list of errors on a page. However, when I go to https://night-mode-checker.wmcloud.org/enwikivoyage-mobile-light/, the list of errors is collapsed. When I click on (for example) "Main_Page - Total Errors: 12", the Cloud Services tool is immediately overwritten by the Main Page. I don't want to see the Main Page itself in this tab; I want to see the list of errors. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:48, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
it's just a bad UI :). You can expand by clicking outside of the links or right click and open in new tab.
The list of errors is not too useful out of context to be honest. I would recommend using the browser extension on the pages with a high amount of errors.
Szymon - you can talk to Kim about improving the UI while I am out!
I think it would be useful to finish up my video too. Jdlrobson (talk) 10:32, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a way to turn on dark mode on desktop? Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering doesn't have anything for me. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 06:05, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello @SHB2000, great question. It's too early to enable it on desktop. We'll roll it out on more wikis on mobile, and then on desktop, as a beta feature. You may read more about this in our FAQ. There's a table there with all the details. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 11:36, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's all good. I do like the look of it on mobile, though. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:40, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If people can opt in on mobile and let me know via my talk page if you see any articles that look broken I will be happy to get those fixed. The top 100 most read are looking good so hopefully this will be on desktop soon. Jdlrobson (talk) 16:03, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jdlrobson: I notice Template:Infobox is broken, not displaying content, e.g. see the one under United States of America#Holidays. Was it this edit? Brycehughes (talk) 15:40, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems it was. I rolled it back but now the HTML table styling is off. Brycehughes (talk) 15:55, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ At the German Wikivoyage, we are using the solution of the English Wikipedia for desktop computers. It is working well (now only for logged-in readers). --RolandUnger (talk) 16:51, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Article suggestion[edit]

If anyone is up to the task of writing it, I think a Canada without a car article will be a good one to have, along the lines of the United States without a car and Australia without a car. I've never lived in Canada, but based on my visits there. Canada is also a very car dependent country. And it seems that Canada's famed national parks are very hard to explore without a car. If anyone knows if any of them can be explored without a car, that information will certainly be useful. The dog2 (talk) 15:15, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This looks like a viable topic. Perhaps some of these webpages would inspire someone to create it:
WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:31, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Re alternative transport. Brycehughes (talk) 18:11, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, from experience the Vancouver metro area is easy to get around without a car, but I needed to rely on one of my mum's friends in rural BC. A guide like this would be very helpful for many travellers. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 08:59, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because of overcrowding at the parking lots, Banff National Park has shuttle buses to get people around, but other parks are difficult to access. Park Bus has sporadic trips from Toronto to ten parks in summer. Rouge Park is a national park in Toronto, accessible by city bus. Ground Zero (talk) 11:47, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Multilingual static maps[edit]

I did a little experiment with File:Norðoyar regions map.png, where I tried to minimise the amount of English I used and always use the local dialect if possible to make the map as multilingual as possible. This would prevent having to translate static maps across different-language Wikivoyages, but it would also mean that the map contains some non-English phrases. There isn't any policy surrounding this, so what does everyone else think of minimising the amount of English used to ensure the same map can be used on different-language Wikivoyages. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 03:18, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This seems like a great use case for translatable SVG. Is there some incentive for what is clearly a non-representational map to be PNG? See e.g. File:ABO blood group diagram.svg and the many pages using c:Template:Translate. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 03:36, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, using a translatable SVG isn't on the table here since the quality of the SVGs that come from Inkscape is beyond hopeless. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 03:42, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
0___o? There are a lot of good maps on c: made in SVG, whether Inkscape or something else. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:05, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They work fine if you use a text editor or Illustrator, but not Inkscape. It is the only reason why policy requires uploading both a PNG and an SVG file. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 04:53, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is the code needed for translation difficult? Otherwise, as you edit the map as SVG anyway, why wouldn't you include the translations in the SVG code? Or is it that the base map is horrendous Inkscape code and Inkscape lacks the functionality?
I like having the map mostly in the local language (I don't think anybody regards Faroese a dialect), but there will be issues when the English name is very different (cf Jorvik for York), or there are different scripts (I cannot use maps in Chinese or Hebrew).
The key in the local language and English makes it usable to most people, but even for Swedish or French, the English looks a bit imperialistic. For projects in English the bilingualism is nice – I'd like having Swedish maps e.g. for Euskadi to be trilingual (Swedish/Basque/Spanish).
–LPfi (talk) 11:06, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is the latter – the base map is horrendous Inkscape code and Inkscape lacks functionaliity.
Thanks for the input on local language (yes, I meant language, not dialect – thanks for picking up on that). Maybe should we limit this practice only where the local language uses a Latin script? (unlike OSM's current approach) --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:19, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Although the base SVG maps are in English, you can see that there are both English and Bengali (my native language) labels in different layers. I disable the Bengali layer when I upload or update the maps. I use Inkscape to create SVG maps and export PNG maps for use in respective Wikivoyages. However, I have decided to replace those monolingual PNG maps with multilingual (bilingual or trilingual, depending on region) ones soon. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 07:11, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@LPfi: File:NLR diagram.svg is another example of a horrendous base map compared to the PNG map – it's bad enough where many text elements are hidden beneath the pictograms (namely the light rail and the wheelchair pictograms). --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 08:03, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Random error messages appearing on pages[edit]

On several pages, this message keeps appearing

https://imgur.com/a/Mq3p3UI

I try going to past revisions of pages but the message keeps showing up. How can I remove the message and get the pages to start working again? Matematica6 (talk) 03:46, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like someone vandalized a template. And I don't see the error message anymore. OhanaUnitedTalk page 05:12, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Bsadowski1 has taken care of it. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 05:56, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Central Jersey[edit]

The latest version of the New Jersey Travel Guide designates Central Jersey as a distinct region. Should it be incorporated into the Wikivoyage hierarchy? If not, should it be an extra region? JsfasdF252 (talk) 00:45, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that it does not:
New Jersey is commonly divided into two regions: North Jersey (including Bergen, Essex, Hudson, Passaic, Morris, Sussex and Warren counties) and South Jersey (including Camden, Burlington, Gloucester, Cumberland and Salem counties). Sometimes Central Jersey (Middlesex, Mercer, Somerset and Hunterdon counties) is considered as a third region. The trichotomous division is up for debate; for example Union and Ocean counties can be considered to both be part of Central Jersey or as part of North and South respectively. For the purpose of this guide, those two regions are further divided into four areas.
I would say that Central Jersey is an amorphous region that some people think exists, and I doubt it's useful enough to be covered in an extra-region article (Upstate New York similarly would not be a useful article), but if you think it is, what would you add to the single sentence that is the second in the above paragraph? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:08, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I meant the travel guide at visitnj.org, not the Wikivoyage one JsfasdF252 (talk) 05:05, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I think their take on what is Central Jersey is debatable. To me, Trenton, as a suburb of Philly, is in South Jersey. There are also towns that I tend to think of as more characterized by being right near Pennsylvania than by being Central or North Jersey (Flemington, Lambertville). But of course all of that is informed by my being a New Yorker. To me, a place like Scotch Plains is in Central Jersey, but it really isn't, geographically. Anyway, there's definitely nothing preventing you from creating an extra-region article if you think it would be helpful. Would you plan to do it for the other New Jersey tourism regions we don't use? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:51, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikivoyage uses four regions; visitnj.org uses seven. It would be a big job to re-sort all of NJ along the lines of visitnj, and we risk them changing their minds in five years. If someone has the time and energy to take this on, I wouldn't object to it, but it's not a job for me. Ground Zero (talk) 11:17, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We don't need to change our hierarchy to exactly match the one used by visitnj. In particular, the Jersey Shore region should not be altered. JsfasdF252 (talk) 18:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Southern Shore, one of visitnj's tourism regions, was part of the Wikivoyage hierarchy until I converted it to an extra region, since it makes much more sense to have the Jersey Shore region extend down to Cape May County. (Visitnj's Shore region only has Monmouth and Ocean Counties, while Atlantic County is represented as a region to itself.) If Central Jersey gets its own region article (extra or hierarchical) then should North and South Jersey get their own region articles, or should they merely be redirects? JsfasdF252 (talk) 18:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AI-"generated" edits[edit]

In a discussion at User talk:70.68.168.129 @Ibaman: wrote:

"AI-generated edits are unneeded and unwanted in this travel guide. Shut down. Turn off."

I agree completely.

Other opinions? Does this need to be added to a policy page? Which one? Pashley (talk) 03:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also Wikivoyage:Votes for deletion/December 2023#Car rental in Tashkent. While I haven't used AI to write anything, I have experimented by asking ChatGPT with this prompt: "Write a Wikivoyage article about [insert destination]" to see what would happen. I do appreciate AI in creating a draft by summarizing the destination (which then I could verify and adapt into my own words before creating the page if I had gone through with this). It appears to be quite accurate and I suspect that the LLM used Wikipedia page entries to learn the text for these destinations. I'm not sure where we should draw the line on AI usage in this project. OhanaUnitedTalk page 03:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Using AI responsibly like you describe it, including changing wordings and checking facts, should be no problem. If you do it like that, probably nobody notices that you used AI. It doesn't differ that much from using encyclopaedias, competing travel guides and other external resources to gather information. In the cases where using AI has been apparent, the text obviously hasn't been checked and rewritten, and not knowing how the used AI has been trained, copyrighted expressions main remain and some of the statements may be hallucinations.
I don't know how to word a guideline so that it does allow responsible use, without encouraging use that is highly problematic. Those who use AI without accounting for the issues, probably aren't prone to follow the spirit nor the wording of such a guideline, but may argue (stubbornly) that it allows their usage of such tools.
–LPfi (talk) 06:01, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've used ChatGPT for translating content, but that's about it (since the copyright remains with the original WM authors). It's fine to be used in discussions, but again, only for translations. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 07:54, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As I see it, these programs are basically plagiarism machines & we already have more than enough problems with plagiarism -- mostly uncredited copying from WP or lumps of text from someone's marketing material. We've also sometimes had problems with machine-generated text, in particular some pretty awful translations.
I conclude that we should ban use of AI-generated text entirely, at least in main space. Pashley (talk) 08:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with a complete ban. If that is too far, we could add "an individual editor may be allowed to use AI for a specific purpose if there is consensus on that use in the pub". Longer term I would like to see AI running on a WMF server to offer features like an improved InternetArchiveBot which could replace "dead link" with "suspect business closed - see this newspaper report of it closing". AlasdairW (talk) 13:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Given that you know you've used AI effectively when nobody can tell that you've used AI, I can't see how banning AI would hurt, as it basically implies no obvious AI, which no one wants anyway. Brycehughes (talk) 23:56, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For exactly that reason, I can't see how banning AI would help. The options are:
  • You use AI, but the content was good, so nobody objects – no harm, no foul (except perhaps in the opinion of people who believe that scrupulous compliance with rules is a morally good action, rather than a means to an end).
  • You use AI, but the content was bad, so it gets reverted – the "ban" was pointless (we revert bad content no matter how it's generated).
  • You don't use AI to create good content, somebody incorrectly claims you did, so good content gets reverted – we lose good content (and probably good will and time in unpleasant discussions, too).
  • You don't use AI to create bad content, somebody incorrectly claims you did, so bad content gets reverted – the ban was pointless (it would have been reverted for being bad anyway)
  • You want to use AI to create good content , but you're afraid of breaking the rules, so you don't contribute at all – we lose a new contributor.
BTW, I am leery of people who claim that they can tell the difference between a poor writer, an English language learner, and an AI tool. I put some of my Wikipedia articles through an AI detection program, and it had pretty much 50–50 results. I'm told that the accuracy is much worse for shorter content, which is most of what we do here.
If you want rules that can be effectively enforced, I suggest:
  • No high-volume editing by newcomers.
  • Regular patrollers are encouraged to check some of the facts independently.
WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:17, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with most of that reasoning. I am one of those who do believe that one shouldn't ignore rules even when they seem counterproductive – the "ignore all rules" rule is about cases where breaking the letter of a rule indeed follows the intended spirit of the rules as a whole.
Rule of Law is an important principle, which I believe is an important factor in the success of the Nordic countries, and being pragmatic about rules can have unforeseen consequences. (Still, the Finnish judicial system has what essentially is an ignore-all-rules rule: the main book of laws quotes Olaus Petri saying that what is not right cannot be law, and judges are allowed to ignore laws they deem unconstitutional – such as violating Human Rights.)
I would certainly not recommend using AI if we forbid it – but unenforceable rules are bad exactly because they undermine the respect for rules in general.
–LPfi (talk) 07:59, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Don't we need to make remarks about the use of AI in Wikivoyage:Copyleft, at least? "Good" and "bad" is not the only issue; copyright violation is also relevant. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:17, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Copyvio content is always bad content. However, AI generation is not synonymous with copyright violation. Training an AI system on CC-SA content, for example, does not violate anyone's copyrights. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:47, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm concerned that inaccurate AI-generated content (which includes most ChatGPT-generated content about reasonably obscure topics, in my experience) may be harder to detect than other bad content. ChatGPT is good at writing things that sound plausible but are actually bogus. In other words, I'm skeptical of the reasoning in User:WhatamIdoing's bullet point that reads "You use AI, but the content was bad, so it gets reverted" – I think AI-generated content may slip through the cracks more easily than other misinformation.
I also think it may be useful to have some kind of warning for good-faith editors who may not realize how unreliable language models are in terms of accuracy. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:56, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We could have a warning in some guideline giving advice on good and bad sources, without explicitly banning or accepting AI-derived content. A warning can hardly be seen as sanctioning it. –LPfi (talk) 07:14, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Although I have never used AI in any Wikimedia project, l do use AI to get the solution of a given problem since 2023 (when the CHATGPT revolution took place). However, I always use my own words when I write the solution myself. If I were going to use AI to contribute in English Wikivoyage, I would ask for transport options, list of attractions and activities with details, list of notable hotels and restaurants etc. individually, and then use my own words to describe these. However, I would never ask to write an entire WV article for me. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 06:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For reliability, the things found by AI should always be checked. If you don't find the POI or connection in other sources, confirming the location and other details, then don't list it. –LPfi (talk) 07:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's hard to even read the discussion and make sense out of what the user wants to say. "It's important to" is a dead giveaway of ChatGPT. You don't want to spend your time writing your own thoughts down, but expect others to read it? -> you earned a Ban, easy as that. -- andree 09:48, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that phrase is a "dead giveaway". For one thing, that exact phrase appears on 363 pages here, and many of those pre-date ChatGPT's existence. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:10, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
YMMV, but 1/2 of answers I get (if I ask non-technical stuff in v3.5) have this condescending tone. I'm allergic to that, so it may be the case that it just triggers me  :-) -- andree 18:46, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not surprised; ChatGPT, after all, needed to learn its content from somewhere. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 21:41, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The sanctimonious tone sounded more like Gemini to me. But that one unhinged comment sounded like the infamous Sydney. Brycehughes (talk) 22:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Change of Mobile View Watchlist[edit]

Since a few hours I noticed a change in the mobile view of the watchlist. The left side of the list has a grey background and is covering part of the text. FredTC (talk) 10:29, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jdlrobson, do you know which team is working on the watchlist? I assume this problem was on the current deployment train. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:44, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like a side effect of phab:T358904. I'm currently traveling so would you be able to raise the alarm? Seems like this should be fixed immediately and possibly block train from rolling out further. Jdlrobson (talk) 00:14, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is back to normal now. FredTC (talk) 13:34, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gender-neutral language[edit]

@SHB2000 recently changed some text in Go, replacing "he or she" (which I'd written) with "they". This is fine, though I do not think necessary; certainly either is better than just using "he". In general, we should avoid making any assumption about anyone's gender (traveller, editor, or in this case go player). Should we make such changes elsewhere? Is there other usage we should correct?

The notion that "singular they" is somehow ungrammatical is utterly bogus; using it with an indefinite antecedent ("Has everyone got their passport?") is entirely normal English that has been in the language longer than singular you. One reference. It can also be used in cases where the gender is unknown (most people you interact with on the net), or undefined (some angels & demons, perhaps God?). Recent attempts to extend the usage are more debatable. In general I'd say anyone who announces "My pronouns are ..." should be laughed at, not humoured, but on the net it may be a legitimate way to avoid being labelled.

There are other cases of arguably sexist language. e.g. Great Rift Valley has "Mankind seems to have evolved largely in this valley" and search shows that "mankind" is used in many other places. These could all be replaced with "humanity", but in my opinion that would be silly. Probably there are other phrases that might be changed, but that I have not noticed.

Do we need a policy on this, or some advice in a style guide? Pashley (talk) 01:54, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think "mankind" has evolved to be gender-neutral. I disagree with "In general I'd say anyone who announces "My pronouns are ..." should be laughed at, not humoured, but on the net it may be a legitimate way to avoid being labelled.", but won't delve into it to avoid a rather off-topic discussion on this page. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 03:46, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
MANkind, huMANity, perSON... I'd say if someone wants to search for sexist verbs in a language, they will find it. I'm for equality as the next person, but constantly pushing annoys even the biggest supporters, IMO. Definitely don't make it a policy. If someone wants to spend time thinking about it and fixing it, let them - but don't bother people that don't care. TBH, I wonder more why we have an article, with half of it describing the rules of Go :-))) -- andree 09:42, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also disagree creating a policy on gender neutrality. You can simply recommend the users to use gender-neutral language in WV:MOS. You can also link to the relevant WP policy if necessary. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 10:54, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also don't think we need a policy on this. Mankind is not sexist, just like saying "Hey, guys" isn't sexist. People who make those types of arguments are the types with solutions in search of problems. Most of the time we refer to the type of person ("travelers", "backpackers", "hikers", "divers", etc.), so I don't think we generally need to get involved with playing pronoun games. I don't think "his or her" is a problem, because it does cover all humans, despite what the narcissistic fake LGBT "personal pronoun"-types claim (I resent what the "self-identity" movement is doing to real LGBT people, but that's beyond scope), but "their" is also not a problem. In short, I don't think this is an issue. It's fine as it is but was also fine as it was. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 11:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"because it does cover all humans" – no it doesn't. Neopronouns are used because it reflects the gender identity of non-binary individuals better than conventional pronouns. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:16, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Non-binary is as legitimate as saying you're a turtle or a douvet cover. It makes a mockery out of real LGBT people and their issues. The non-binary mantra of "I say therefore I am" is a false claim, but this discussion is beyond scope and a consensus has been reached, so we can just leave this where it is. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 11:27, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Let's stick with the question of whether we should have a policy, and avoiding bringing a culture war to the Travellers' Pub. Wikivoyage is written by a collection of people. The language Wikivoyage uses will evolve as the language of its writers evolves. I don't think we need a policy. Sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic, ablist language has no place in Wikivoyage. Inclusive language is always preferable in an project aiming to appeal to a broad audience. If someone wants to replace non-inclusive language with inclusive language, they should go ahead and do it. Writing a policy, however, is going to lead to a whole bunch of dyspeptic rants and unproductive debates. Let's not spend our energy on that. Ground Zero (talk) 11:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. My main issue was with ChubbyWimbus' denialism of non-binary people which has no place on Wikimedia. I don't like closing discussions but can we just close this? I don't think we're going anywhere by continuing it. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:41, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, everyone agrees, so unless someone opposes, consensus has been reached. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 11:42, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that ChubbyWimbus' denialism of non-binary people has no place on Wikimedia. Ground Zero (talk) 11:46, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
He said he despises that stuff (not that he denies existence of such people), and even gave a valid reason, IMO. The non-binary people can call themselves whatever they please. They can't force anyone to like it, though. -- andree 11:58, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are misreading CW's comment. See the one at 11:27, 12 April 2024. Ground Zero (talk) 12:01, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, he is right. I didn't say that nobody identifies as non-binary. I said I don't agree with the logic or lack thereof surrounding "non-binary" and that I think it does harm to LGBT people. The referenced policy is specifically about dealing with others users and states that we should identify users how they wish to be identified. Nowhere did I identify anyone in a way that they asked not to be identified nor did I state anywhere that I would refuse to do so. It does not state that users must all have the same religious or ideological beliefs or that they all must state that they believe in all religious or ideological beliefs. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 12:26, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is never constructive to bring a w:Straw man argument into a discussion. No-one argued that users must all have the same religious or ideological beliefs or that they all must state that they believe in all religious or ideological beliefs. No-one claimed that you kick puppies or beat your spouse, either.
It is clear that you are looking to have a fight about this. There are other of places you can fight about this on the internet; you don't have to do it in the Travellers' Pub. This is a forum about building a travel guide.
The comments that "despite what the narcissistic fake LGBT "personal pronoun"-types claim" and "Non-binary is as legitimate as saying you're a turtle or a douvet cover. It makes a mockery out of real LGBT people and their issues. The non-binary mantra of "I say therefore I am" is a false claim" were completely unnecessary, gratuitous, and not germane to the discussion. It makes it clear that you want to have an argument. This is not the place for that.
These comments are insulting and do not meet the Wikimedia Universal Code of Conduct (2.1) "We expect all Wikimedians to show respect for others." They do meet the definition Unacceptable Behaviour (3.1) "Insults: This includes name calling, using slurs or stereotypes, and any attacks based on personal characteristics. Insults may refer to perceived characteristics like... sexual orientation, gender, sex, ... or other characteristics. In some cases, repeated mockery, sarcasm, or aggression constitute insults collectively, even if individual statements would not."
One of the reasons that this behaviour is unacceptable is that it can drive contributors away. The condescending and sarcastic tone taken by CW (and others) in this discussion caused me to take several days off to consider whether I want to spend my time online in a hostile environment. Let's not let this sort of behaviour be tolerated. Ground Zero (talk) 17:06, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not only that, but Chubby's comments are insanely disrespectful, inconsiderate and insensitive to those experiencing gender dysphoria. The WMF knew what they were doing when they created the Universal Code of Conduct, and part of that is to avoid comments like CW's to ensure that communities, including the English Wikivoyage, are "positive, safe and healthy environments". --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 21:38, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion has gone way off the rails. Just stop. Already. Please. Nurg (talk) 23:08, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

+1. Brycehughes (talk) 23:50, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Pashley (talk) 01:17, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is sad that the Wikivoyage community has no interest in following Wikimedia's Universal Code of Conduct. It was adopted hy Wikimedia for just this sort of situation. Ground Zero (talk) 01:51, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pashley your framing of a legitimate question was unnecessarily combative, sparked this, to wash your hands now is a bit rich. Whatever. Everyone take a step back. This is a travel guide. Ground Zero you of all people know that this is not Wikipedia and we tend to have a a more cowboy/cowgirl/cowwho approach here. Users want to know where to eat, how to get from A to B. Arguments like these are peripheral to our mission. Brycehughes (talk) 01:59, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikivoyage is part of Wikimedia. Pashley was out of line; ChubbyWimbus was insulting and looking for a fight. Calling out this toxic behaviour is how we stop Wikivoyage becoming like so many other parts of the Internet. And it is Wikimedia policy. Ground Zero (talk) 02:31, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They're opinions that you'd find in any pub around the world including this one. This is a travel website. Brycehughes (talk) 02:48, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikimedia has a Code of Conduct that requires treating other contributors with respect, and to create a positive, safe environment. ChubbyWimbus is violating that Code of Conduct.
I've created 162 travel articles on the website, so I know it's a travel website. And I think you know you're being condescending in telling me that repeatedly. Being a travel website does not give anyone licence to be insulting, or to use it as a soapbox for their views as Pashley and ChubbyWimbus have done. Ground Zero (talk) 03:10, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok but I also refuse to believe that you travel around the world asking others abide by the wm code of conduct. So how do you get by? Brycehughes (talk) 03:28, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, you're being deliberately insulting and belittling, which is an obvious violation of any code of conduct on a site not known as, like, 4-Chan or Reddit. Second, this is Wikimedia, so you need to either respect the rules, be silent about them, or try to fight them at a much higher level than the Wikivoyage Travellers' pub. What you are doing constitutes harassment, and the high quality of your edits does not give you license to continue such behavior. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:55, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm being insulting and belittling... what? Brycehughes (talk) 10:01, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you didn't mean to be insulting or belittling by asking "How do you get by," I don't know what you meant by it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:30, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was asking about the techniques one uses in real life for coping with these types of situations. Apologies if it came across as insulting or belittling. Brycehughes (talk) 20:37, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Brycehughes: At the bottom of every page you should see the text "By using this site, you agree to the Terms of Use and Privacy Policy." That's because Wikivoyage is governed by the WMF, and these are policies that we can never change through our own means. foundation:ToU#4. Refraining from Certain Activities, which states that "We ask that all users review and follow the Universal Code of Conduct ("UCoC"), which lays out requirements for collegial, civil collaboration across all Projects that we host." If two users violate that code of conduct (thus the terms of service), it isn't an issue we can drop nor let go of. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 12:42, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I sort of disagree but I'm also kicking myself for getting involved here and so I'm just going to pay my tab and exit the pub. Brycehughes (talk) 20:39, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nurg: No – I would have agreed with you yesterday, but I am not letting ChubbyWimbus' derogatory comments against non-binary people go under the radar and am willing to fight tooth and nail until they retract their comments. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 06:58, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I do not believe I was at all "out of line", but nor do I think this should be argued here. If you think my rebuttal would be important (I don't), then take the discussion elsewhere — my talk page, a separate thread on this page, a policy talk page, or wherever you like — & I'll give you both barrels. But for heaven's sake either keep this thread for the original question or kill it off since the question is resolved. Pashley (talk) 07:04, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was this comment that was out of line: "I'd say anyone who announces "My pronouns are ..." should be laughed at, not humoured, but on the net it may be a legitimate way to avoid being labelled." Why did you go there? Why introduce this hostility? People who use pronouns that are not the obvious one do this commonly, and some people do this to be allies of non-bibary and trans people. Laughing at people who experience gender dysphoria or who are being supportive of other people is not respectful, and us insulting.
Picking a fight in the Pub and then telling those who call you out for it "this isn't the place; take it elsewhere" is hypocritical. Ground Zero (talk) 10:44, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since it was conjectured that I "wanted to fight", I had originally thought it best to not respond to show that I am not interested in "fighting". Doing so however, could be misconstrued in other ways, so I have decided to respond not to "fight", but in hopes of concluding this discussion to reasonable satisfaction so that we can all get back to travel content.
I take responsibility for and appologize for the flippant language used. The topic hit a nerve as I am firmly against going back to the days of "being gay is a choice" and have seen this attitude resurge in my personal life due to the choice-based/self-identifying ideology (this includes "being trans is a choice", which to me denies gender dysphoria and the real struggles people have with gender dysphoria to clarify the misunderstanding that I was saying anything against sufferers) and I find it troubling, but I admit that the better option would have been to refrain, so I appologize for the unnecessarily charged language that I used. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 14:03, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad I saw this before making a further reply. It's good of you to apologize, and your explanation is also a good thought that shows your good faith. But for others, I want to state clearly that we have editors on this site who publicly identify as trans on this site, doubtless other trans editors and/or readers who don't state their gender identity publicly, and we cannot make this site hostile to them but should keep it welcoming to everyone who wants to use it constructively. That's what the Wikimedia rules are for, and while everyone has the right to privately respect or disrespect such rules, Wikivoyage is a place to observe and not debate them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:29, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I concur with Ikan and thank ChubbyWimbus for making the first step which is to apologise. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 21:19, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ChubbyWimbus: thank you for this reply. I disagree with you, but accept that understand the impact on others of the words you used. Ground Zero (talk) 21:15, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Responding to the original post, I believe that we do have an article titled Use of pronouns that addresses this. In many cases we can avoid he/she/they altogether and write directly to the traveler. The exact reason Go is a problem is because much of the article's content is encyclopedic and therefore can't be addressed directly to the reader.
I disagree with the level of concern attached to the specific pronoun used in the article. Spanish, for example, uses the male-gendered pronoun to refer to groups of people ("ellos" for mixed or male groups, or "ellas" when all female) with the understanding that the masculine pronoun can be all-inclusive. If we are going to change a pronoun to "they," I suggest we make the entire sentence plural; for example we could change the sentence in that article to "Players may pass their turn if..." --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 18:59, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's fine for you to do that, but you should accept that singular "they" goes back further than Shakespeare (see w:Singular they: "This use of singular they had emerged by the 14th century, about a century after the plural they"), and that English is not a gendered language the way Romance languages are. In Spanish, "they" is gendered, as you state; in English, it is not. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:51, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at WV:Use of pronouns, I see that it has sections for 1st & 2nd person pronouns, but not 3rd. Should that be added? Pashley (talk) 01:00, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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