Talk:Holmes County (Ohio)

Useful Holmes Co. info [1].(WT-en) Fastestdogever 00:02, 12 February 2007 (EST)

• Please note - I have a long established relationship with some Ohio Amish and Mennonites (Men of Science) families, due to a common interest in "native hardwoods". The photo's I have added today were taken after a discussion with some of them and do not offend their beliefs. Having known them for some 20 years, these are the first photo's I have taken. (WT-en) 2old 14:26, 9 July 2007 (EDT)

I deleted:

IMPORTANT UPDATE: The above statements are not completely accurate, and some are just plain untrue. The author of the above information probably got their information from a single visit, or a textbook.

• No, I have dealt with the Amish for over 20 years.

Where to begin...

The furniture made in Ohio's Amish Country is of the highest quality anywhere in the U.S. If a local person makes shabby furniture they do not stay in business very long. Yes, you need to be careful for some Chinese-made items (mostly the garbage sold in the tourist traps) but when you go into the vast majority of furniture shops, you are buying high-quality locally made furniture.

• When you go to well established furniture stores (Farmerstown), you find top quality furniture, in Berlin, quality varies from poor to fine furniture. Best (Johns Woodworking). Worst - most downtown.

The passage above about photographs simply is not true. As a local resident, writer, photographer and businessperson who does business with the Amish on a daily basis, I can emphatically state that it is NOT "against the religion" of the Amish to be photographed. My daughter goes to public school with Amish children, and the class photo is about 1/2 Amish children. Indeed it is children who are most likely to be photographed because they have not yet joined the church (Amish are adult baptisers, hence the term Anabaptist). Not only have I photographed Amish children many times (from a respectful distance) but I have published these photos in my books, and never once have I received negative feedback from the Amish. In fact, many have purchased my book.

• I can not argue this, but I know of no Amish who attend public schools, Mennonite maybe, but most Amish provide their own schools. They are way too polite to give you any "negative comments". Anyone doing what you are doing would have to be defined as an overbearing english person taking advantage of the Amish for personal gain. Not a good idea.

Where the confusion comes in, is with POSING for photography, whether or not the person is a church member, and what sect (local church group) they belong to. In short, the more conservative the sect, the more the people are going to not want to be photographed. How do I know? I asked! I work with the Amish, I write about them AND I photograph them. Also, to say that you should not photograph Amish farms is positively absurd. It is just wrong. Period. There are certain events I will not photograph, namely funerals. I have photographed weddings from a distance.

• Your words:In short, the more conservative the sect, the more the people are going to not want to be photographed. Well said. Do not photograph them. I asked also. Many discuusions on the topic with them in 20 years.

Finally, to equate asking permission to photograph an Amish person to racism is one of the most inaccurate, outlandish, ridiculous statements I have ever heard. The Amish ARE NOT a "different race" of people. What nonsense! The Amish are a Christian religious sect or European descent who simply choose to live their lives with a different focus and values than us "English." In Amish communities the three things that matter most are faith, family and community. Each is equally important, and their manner of dress and the customs are just a manifestation of their faith. Nothing more, nothing less. To call them a different race is naive, insulting and grossly uninformed. Asking permission to photograph an Amish person may be a faux pas by someone who does not understand that the Amish do not consider themselves a curiosity, and it may even be a bit rude depending upon the circumstance, but racist? Please. I've heard some ridiculous claims regarding the Amish, but that one is a true whopper.

• The Amsih are:An ethnic group or ethnicity, a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry.[1] Ethnicity is also defined from the recognition by others as a distinct group[2] and by common cultural, linguistic, religious, behavioural or biological traits. Agreed, not a different race, but in all of my discussions with Amish in Holmes, Morrow Counties, which are numerous, in and out of Amish homes, on farms and in workshops, they have convinced me that they do not want to be photographed, especially the children. I do know that overbearing "english" overlook and ignor this fact. Have you ever seen any photo's of anyone in an Amish home? I do not think so. So, my term as a racist action, is as descriptive as I can get.

I also can speak about the use of the word "Amish" in terms of marketing.

Over the years, the Amish have, by default, built a very powerful brand. People across the world equate the word "Amish" with quality because they know about the Amish work ethic, and dedication to producing high-quality products. In recent years, foreign competition and a "shakeout" in the Amish furniture industry has caused the Amish businesspeople to take a first real look at marketing. in the past, customers were plentiful, and selling was easy. But again, competition is the new reality and marketing is being introduced to a group that never really needed it or considered it before.

• Calling the Amish a brand, I am sure would be more than offensve to them, and yes, some VERY limited "Amish" is being used by them, mostly in fresh food products within their co-ops, but their is a lot of resentment within the community on this and may be short lived. How many jars of jelly or bakery items have you purchased from the Amish that had any reference to Amish on it. None.

Some Amish businesses will use the word "Amish" in their marketing. How do I know? Because I do marketing work for a number of Amish clients. Some are very, very reluctant to use it. Some understand the power of the "brand" they have built and use the word with caution. Such as, "furniture from Ohio's Amish Country." Others will not use it at all. It's all a matter of choice, and what one's church will allow.

Bottom line on marketing with the word "Amish": If you see "Amish furniture" or "Amish-made furniture" advertised, it probably IS Amish-made. It is not a "marketing ploy;" it is simply a way of defining one's product in an ever-competitive marketplace.

• Most of these terms are used by the 'hawkers" in Berlin, they attach those terms to what they buy from the Amish, the Amish do not use it.
• I really think you are a well meaning "english person" living in Amishland, with no understanding or respect for them. (WT-en) 2old 10:21, 28 November 2007 (EST)

Please, please read this!

OK, I have calmed down a bit. But...

I can emphatically state that the information you keep deleting is good information. You say you have known the Amish for 20 years. Good for you. I LIVE here, and my family has been here for 140 years. I write books about the Amish, and I work with them on a daily basis to help them promote their wholesale and retail furniture businesses!

I will not re-post my more-insulting comments about your work if you will please go back and re-read what I have posted. Please, open your mind to the fact that you are not, by simple virtue of your association with the Amish, necessarily an expert, and that your information could be in error. It is. In terms of some of your statements you are quite simply, quite wrong.

If you go to public schools throughout Holmes, Tuscarawas and southern Wayne County, you will see a lot of Amish children in public schools. Would you like me to post my daughter's class photo, comprised of approximately one-half Amish Children? The Amish WILL send their children to a private school based on their own personal preferences, and the availability of either private or public schools. I challenge you to go the the public elementary schools in Mt. Hope, Winesburg, Charm or Mt. Eaton to name a few. You will find that these public schools have many Amish students. In fact, some of those I just named have a majority Amish student body. I can take you to public schools that have a 100% Amish student body (Flat Ridge Elementary, near Charm, Chestnut Ridge, near Walnut Creek). You don't know of any Amish who send their students to public school? Well I do!

As an aside, I can tell you that I know more than one Amish person who has told me emphatically that they would never send their children to an Amish school. Why? Personal preference. Yes, even among the Amish there are varying degrees of opinions about education. What you will find is that the more conservative the sect, the more likely they are to build and support a private school, as opposed to using a public school. Probably 100% (or very close to it) of the Swartzentrubers eschew public schools in favor of parochial.

You are also wrong in your comparison of taking an Amish person's photo to racism, and you assertion that the Amish are a separate race. To me, that is a very insulting statement, because the Amish do not consider themselves different from us, except for the way they choose to live their lives. I cannot begin to explain how totally off base you are. Hear me on this: There is a great deal of variance of Amish beliefs and practices on photography. Don't believe me? Come to Millersburg, go to the Wal-Mart and watch the young Amish girls using the photo machines or picking up prints. I guarantee you that a lot of Amish are using cell phone cameras, too!

The Amish also are not a separate ethnic group. Never heard that before, and I challenge you to go the Amish And Mennonite Heritage Center outside Berlin to learn more about the real roots of the Anabaptists. They are of European descent, and are not a distinct ethnic group. Weird stuff.

• From Wikipedia:The Amish are united by a common Swiss-German ancestry, language, and culture, and they marry within theAmish community. The Amish therefore meet the criteria of an ethnic group. [2] (WT-en) 2old 13:00, 28 November 2007 (EST)

You state, "They are way too polite to give you any "negative comments". Anyone doing what you are doing would have to be defined as an overbearing english person taking advantage of the Amish for personal gain. Not a good idea."

You are right that they are very polite and nonconfrontational, but you are wrong in your statements about me, and how I earn my living. Please understand that Amish people, small and large Amish-owned businesses and MAJOR corporations in this area support my work, buy my work, display my work in their places of businesses and PAY me to do what I do! Otherwise I would have to go get a real job, instead of engaging in this Wiki-battle. :-)

Did you not read the part where I explained that Amish people themselves BUY my books? I will explain further that I do not publish photos of adults where their faces are recognizable. As for you comments about personal gain, I submit that you do not know what you are talking about. There are numerous books, magazines and other items that feature photography of Amish farms, people and events that do not exploit the Amish people.

You say, "I really think you are a well meaning "english person" living in Amishland, with no understanding or respect for them." NOTHING could be further from the truth in terms of my respect for the Amish people. Again, you do not understand my post. I work WITH Amish people on a DAILY basis. What I have stated about the use of the word "Amish" in their marketing comes from my Amish clients themselves. I work with Amish from across the spectrum, and you must understand the differences in and among the Amish.

I have the absolute deepest respect for and understanding of the Amish, and they know this, or they would not hire me! I honestly believe it is YOU whose knowledge of the Amish is quite limited.

I do apologize for my tone here. But I get very annoyed with people who have only a cursory amount of TRUE knowledge about the Amish trying to tell people things that just aren't true!

I want to speak a little more about how I make my living.

First, I do not publish photos of Amish adults where their faces are recognizable. Next, Please understand that I am a one-person business, and I am made by my reputation among my Amish clients. Do you honestly think they would continue to give me work if they felt I did not respect them? I have had many, many long discussions with numerous clients about how best to present their products to their customers (either at the wholesale or retail level) and still respect the wishes of their church, and their personal feelings. Example: I have a wholesale client who does not mind using the word "Amish" in his marketing materials. He builds one type of furniture and he partners with another man who builds the complementing products. The other man will not use the word "Amish." When we did a joint flyer for the two of them, we left out that word. When I do things for the other guy, we use the word. No one involved has a problem with it. Simple as that!

I work with Amish who have cell phones, use generators and computers. I also work with "kerosene lamp" Amish. I work very hard to respect each person's wishes and that of their church. Do you really want to rat them out?

Let’s talk more about the word “Amish” and marketing. Trust me when I tell you that I have attended many meetings where branding and use of the word “Amish” has been discussed. I’m not talking about jams and jellies or pies here. I’m talking about multi-million-dollar Amish-owned businesses that are trying to find the best ways to compete in the marketplace and still respect the wishes of their church. It’s a great discussion, and one whose time has come. I am not talking about “hawkers” in Berlin. I am talking about smart, savvy, very successful, very religious people who want to keep their businesses thriving and growing so that the Amish way of life can continue, grow and thrive. There is MUCH discussion about branding happening right now, and the entire community (except for the very conservative groups) is involved in the discussion. Some Amish definitely object (as I stated before) to using the word “Amish.” Others have no problem stating, for example, “Furniture from Ohio’s Amish Country” if it allows them to remain competitive and feed their family and their employees’ families. You really need to understand the differences among the Amish themselves.

A word on furniture quality: If you think John's Furniture in Berlin is the best quality, you need to get out more! John's is for tourists. Check Homestead (Wow! No, they are not my clients, but they have advertised in one of my publications); Walnut Creek Furniture, Weaver Furniture in Sugarcreek and Green Acres Furniture in Mt. Eaton. In any of those stores you will find furniture that far surpasses what John's offers. I agree, but none of them are in Berlin.

I do agree with you :-) that the downtown Berlin stores are not the best. But understand that these stores carry much more of the traditional Oak furniture in light stains that used to be very popular. Consumers today want new styles, designs and stain colors. The shops and stores that have responded to this do well. Others have not. As far as the "trinket" shops in Berlin, we agree. Skip them. You can find that junk anywhere. Although, I do take issue with your statement about an Amish person selling Chinese-made trinkets from their buggy. I'd like to see you back that up with some more specifics before I believe that.Try the old fellow with his buggy who is always set up across from the cheese factory in the parking lot, on 577. I want you to accept that I am not some "well-meaning English person" who is exploiting the Amish or doesn't understand or respect them. You have absolutely no idea who I am, and the statements you have made about me are as inaccurate as some of the information you posted. Even though I have deep, deep roots here, I did a LOT of research and spoke to a lot of people before I published my first book. The best indication I can give you that my work is accepted here is this: Have you ever had an Amish person call or write you and ask to buy YOUR book? No? Well I have. Photography of the Amish, and using that work to make money is not, in and of itself evil. When some yokel comes to town and runs up to an Amish person, sticks a camera in their face and takes their picture (like they are at the circus), THAT is wrong. That's not what I do, and you need to understand that the vast majority of Amish have absolutely no objection to photographs of the Amish and their farms being published. Some do, and I respect that. I do not buy that, but how is one to know who objects and who does not. All I know, do object.

Again, I apologize for my tone, but I have encountered "experts" like you many times, and you do people a huge disservice by spreading half-truths and misinformation. Please don't judge me, and please try to get your facts straight. And please understand that much of what you posted is simply not good information. I battle this stuff all the time, and believe me when I tell you that I work very hard to dispell the type of stuff you posted, and I do so with the support of the Amish community. I am a degreed professional writer, editor, photographer, publisher and advertising/marketing consultant who makes 100% of his living working WITH the Amish. I know what I am taking about! My credentials are unassailable, and I could name-drop if I wanted to. But at this point, I will not. I'll bet you know the Yoders.

Maybe down the road we can exchange contact information and eventually become friends. I can accept that you have some knowledge about the Amish, and are eager to protect and respect them. I can appreciate that.Thanks, but no thanks.

Can you accept that I am a professional who knows what he is talking about? Can you accept that Amish people and Amish businesses support my work and that they are not only my clients and business associates, but my friends and neighbors?

I have to go now. I have an ad to do for an Amish client and then I have to go see other clients, Amish and English alike! :-)

• I too am aware of the differences from community to community of Amish, but I truly beleive that you have confused the Amish with the Mennonites in your area. So, no, I can not accept that you are a professional who knows what you are talking about. The ethnenticity subject I addressed above is one example. And true, you will find Amish teens doing all kinds of things PRIOR to being baptised, part of the Amish way of giving the young a chance to make their own decisions. It is also odd that NOW, you say, Oh, well I don't show their faces. There is also nothing wrong with the furniture stores you mentioned, but did you notice none of them, which are all part of the community (except maybe Homestead), DO NOT USE THE WORD AMISH? I stand by my previous statements. I would have to put you in the same class as the leaches in downtown Berlin who have nothing going for themselves other than borrowing the term AMISH to benefit themselves.
• Those who do not choose to live an Amish lifestyle and join the church are no longer considered Amish, just as those who live the plain lifestyle but are not baptized into the Amish Church are not Amish (WT-en) 2old 13:13, 28 November 2007 (EST) ````

You are 100% off base, wrong and quite rude!

You wrote: "I truly beleive that you have confused the Amish with the Mennonites in your area."

Are you kidding me?!

You think I have the Amish and Mennonites from my area confused?!

I assure you, I do not!

How can you be so dismissive of the information I have provided?!

Let me state emphatically here and now that you know NOTHING about the Amish.

Try and read this s-l-o-w-l-y so you can grasp this:

1. I have written books about the Amish. NOT Mennonites, the Amish.

2. I WORK WITH Amish businesspeople on a DAILY basis. Not Mennonite. Amish. I know the difference.

3. My work is supported by Amish, Mennonite and English people and businesses (large and small) throughout this area.

4. If I was not respectful of the Amish, no business in this area (Amish, Mennonite or English) would have anything to do with me.

Your statements make it very clear to me that you are just another self-appointed expert who thinks he knows it all because he may or may not have done business with an Amish person. Again, I run into people like you all the time and find it quite annoying. The Amish want very much to clear up misinformation about them, and I try to do that. YOU are spreading misinformation about the Amish, and I will do what I can within the rules of this community to stop that.

You obviously don't have any REAL knowledge about the Amish and their practices.

You do not understand what I have posted, and you do not understand my level of expertise.

What I said about my photos is that I don't publish photos where the face of an adult who has joined the church is recognizable. Also, yes, when the aforementioned young people join the church, they will curtail their photography practices somewhat. But I could take you right now to an Amish person (more than one) who has and uses a cell phone camera. Adults. Baptized. Amish.

You also obviously did not grasp what I said earlier: The Amish SUPPORT my work. They HIRE me. Other companies in the area SUPPORT my work. Those of us who LIVE HERE and KNOW what we are talking about do what we can to publish good and truthful information about the Amish. We take it VERY seriously! My work is VERY well received by the Amish, Mennonites and English and large and small businesses in this area. PLEASE TELL ME: EXACTLY WHAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS?

I would not even post a response to you, but this is an important site, and you are posting information that IS NOT TRUE. Why can you not understand this?

In addition, I am very, very offended about your personal attacks on me and how I make my living. Do you not understand that if the Amish did not support tourism and make their living from it that they would simply leave this area? Do you not understand that if I didn't have a deep respect and understanding of the Amish that I wouldn't have any work? Also, please understand that your accusation of me being a "leach" is potentially a libelous statement. (Read the definition of libel. I know the definition because I have a DEGREE in journalism.) RETRACT THAT STATEMENT NOW.

Let me make a quick point: Tourism is a multi-million-dollar business in this area. More than 90 percent of the Amish no longer make their living as farmers, for a variety of reasons (land availability and cost being the number one factors). The furniture industry in this area (this is part of the information you deleted) is the second-largest furniture-manufacturing district in the USA. It is second in size only to High Point, NC. This industry would not have grown and thrived without the support of the Amish community. I deeply resent your statements about me and the work I do, because I HELP these businesses to sell their products on both a wholesale and retail level. They are my clients and my friends and I am VERY proud and happy to be doing what I do.

By the way: Of the furniture stores that I mentioned, and that you claim do not use the word "Amish," I can assure you that you are wrong there as well. I do ads for some, and at least one is a regular client of mine. They do in fact use the word "Amish" in their advertising. Perhaps not on their storefront signs, but in their print ads.

I truly wish that you would accept the fact that you are wrong, and allow me to post accurate information on this site. And I can't emphasize enough how wrong you are about me personally, and how angry I am at your crude, baseless allegations about me. I am a grown man, highly qualified, doing work I love with wonderful, kind people. I have great life! I wholeheartedly reject what you say about me and my work. I stand by my work, and my knowledge of and respect for the Amish 100 percent. Please allow the grossly inaccurate information you have posted to be replaced with good, accurate information about my friends and neighbors in Ohio's Amish communities.

Response.

Would you prefer parasitic to leach? Please read John A. Hostetlers' book Amish Society, or Wikiopedia's article on Amish. Both are well done and accurate. (You really need to!) I have seen many merchants in Holmes County provide poor literature this subject before. (WT-en) 2old 15:14, 28 November 2007 (EST)

10/23 Edit

Removed sentences calling the Amish "racist" and cleaned up some bad writing in the same paragraph. --Jeff