Talk:Imperial China

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Isn't this article name rather misleading?[edit]

I understand that we can create articles for historical China, but there was never really anything called the 'Chinese Empire'. There used be be some different meanings ( see w:Celestial_Empire ) for this term, but there were in fact multiple kingdoms and empires in the country now known as China.

Can we rename it to Historical China ? Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:57, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

How about "Chinese empires"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:03, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict) The biggest problem is pin-pointing the section of China's history this article covers. "Historical China" is probably the best name choice, unless we do something along the lines of "Dynasties of China". --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 02:05, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps it would be easier to decide if we understood the purpose of this article? Is it to cover A) The entire history of what is now China, B) List all the dynasties that have existed in China or C) Cover the w:Qing_dynasty, who ruled most of today's China from 1644 to 1912? Andrewssi2 (talk)
(FYI, I created the Western_Xia article to cover a small and discrete empire that existed in China.) Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:15, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict) To me, the statement "China was an empire from at least 1700 BCE until 1911 CE..." along with the listings that follow it imply that the article covers Chinese history in general, but not after 1911. However, the article could do with being clearer about the time period it covers. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 02:16, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
Actually, looking at the end of the list of destinations, I would say it goes on to the present, more or less. What it needs is more historical background so it is clearer what the time period is. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 02:18, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
I would say that it is a complete history based on current content. I would say better just to rename Historical China and probably split into further articles around specific periods of Chinese history, some of which already exist. Andrewssi2 (talk) 09:57, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Yes, but we would need a lot of content in the original article for that. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 13:59, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Imperial China? - 15:29, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
I'd say the current title is fine; we have Russian Empire, Mongol Empire, British Empire, etc. Pashley (talk) 20:16, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
Except for things like Tibetan Empire or Western Xia which were separate for centuries, or modern stuff like Long March, I do not think we need other Chineee history articles. I think there are already redirects here for all the dynasties; that's fine but they don't need separate articles. Pashley (talk) 21:30, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
Pashley - please read the original question above. The point is that the British Empire and Russian Empire were real things. The 'Chinese Empire' never existed, hence the name change requirement. Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:32, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
If a name change is necessary, I'd much prefer "Imperial China" or "Chinese empires" to the vague "Historical China". Everything is historical, including the present, and even if the past is implied, "historical" gives no indication when the endpoint of the historical scope is. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:59, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
i agree with Ikan here. "Imperial China" would be fine, but "Historical China" or (better) "Chinese history" would make sense to me only if someone wanted to do the considerable work of expanding the article to cover other parts of the history: arts, religions, etc,
As for "the British Empire and Russian Empire were real things. The 'Chinese Empire' never existed" I think that's a distinction that does not make a difference. China was certainly one of the world's great empires, though there were multiple different dynasties and the borders changed over time. Pashley (talk) 13:49, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
I'm good with Imperial China. I don't think it is a distraction because you can't point this article to a single 'Chinese Empire'. There were multiple concurrent empires in this region during the same time periods, and even Wikipedia agrees on this point in not having an article called Chinese Empire or anything like it. Andrewssi2 (talk) 21:38, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
I'm fine with Imperial China, Ancient China or something similar. It's true that there was never a single empire called the "Chinese Empire". The dog2 (talk) 03:54, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, I believe that we have consensus for a change to Imperial China. Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:24, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
@Andrewssi2, Mx. Granger: Given the discussion at Talk:Age of Discovery#China 2, I'm wondering whether this article's title is correct. "Imperial" could be seen as referring to imperialism and its impact upon China, including the Opium Wars, etc., when the scope of this article is actually much larger. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:05, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
I don't feel there is any way that this article's name could be confused with the impacts of other countries' imperialism upon China. That would be named something like Colonial China ... just my thoughts. Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:53, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
I agree. I'd be surprised by any confusion, and if there is, the first sentence could take care of it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:28, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
OK. I'm sure you guys are right. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 12:34, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
its not misleading, before 1911, it was kingdom not communism!


Let's discuss how to handle this, because the translation is a little complicated. Usually, the translation for "emperor" in Chinese is 皇帝, and the translation for "empress" is 皇后. However, the term 皇帝 is actually a gender neutral term, so we would use the same term even if the reigning monarch is a woman, while the term 皇后 refers only to empress consorts. So in the case of Wu Zetian, when we refer to her during the time she was actually reigning over China, we use the term 皇帝 just like for the male emperors. The dog2 (talk) 20:08, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

I would use the word "emperor"; I think it's clear in context. I've also seen Wu Zetian described as China's only "empress regnant", but that phrase feels a little technical for a travel guide. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:48, 26 February 2021 (UTC)