Talk:Javanese phrasebook

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In written Romanized Javanese, a final -a must often by pronounced -o (open, as in British English long). So the word transcribed as saka (from) will actually be pronounced more like soko.

This is not usually a problem, as most proficient speakers understand the rules that govern this change. However, those who are unfamiliar with Javanese, will not know.

One idea might be to just write soko in the phrasebook, but that won't work as there are two -o sounds in Javanese - the open -o we met above, and the closed -o which is heard in British English go. It isn't correct to use the closed -o to sound the final -a. There would still be comprehension by the listener but it would sound strange.

An alternative might be to use a character such as -å, in fact already used by some writers of Javanese. This would give a clearer idea of when a written -a is sounded as open -o. The closed -o sound would continue to be represented by -o.

Any considerations from other users? Tawonmadu (talk) 09:42, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

I don't know Javanese, but in my pronunciation of English "long" uses almost the same vowel as "lawn" (the "aw" in "lawn" seems to be further back in my throat), while "go" also has a subtle "oo" sound at the end of the vowel (a commonality with English English, as many English folks I've known or heard speak use a "w" sound at the ends of vowels like "o" to a much greater extent). So in addition to figuring out how best to represent the sound you're describing, it may be necessary to describe the differences between the "o" sounds more clearly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:52, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
How about if we think about the 'o' sounds in the two words hot and hotel. The first is the 'open' sound that would be represented by ɔ in the International Phonetic Alphabet. The second is the 'closed' sound that IPA would represent as o. If the Javanese phrasebook says to use the word correctly transcribed as 'saka', then it needs to guide the reader to pronounce it 'sɔkɔ', not 'soko' or 'saka'. Writing it out in IPA doesn't really seem user friendly. To use IPA to get the sound of just one letter would be inconsistent, we would need to do it for all letters, and that adds complexity the reader doesn't need. Tawonmadu (talk) 15:33, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
My suggestion is to write it out as 'såkå', showing that the spelling is 'saka' but the sound is 'soko' (with the open o sound). Tawonmadu (talk) 15:36, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
My "o" in "hot" is almost like "a" in "father" (though further back in the throat). If everyone understood IPA, that would solve all these problems, but so far, we've made the decision that requiring people to learn IPA to use our phrasebooks is too user-unfriendly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:12, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
The varieties of English pronounciation are never going to make this easy. I'll make one reference to IPA in the intro to pronounciation, and try to give some clear examples. We'll see if there is strong objection. Can always undo if necessary. Tawonmadu (talk) 06:22, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

[edit]

@Bennylin: Since the current banner is being used for the Indonesian phrasebook, I think we should switch to a new banner. Perhaps we can replace it with a banner of gamelan or wayang kulit, as you suggested in the Indonesian phrasebook talk page. Would you like to make the banner? The dog2 (talk) 02:43, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Sure. Let's' brainstorm for several options. Bennylin (talk) 13:19, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
1. Collectie NMvWereldculturen, RV-847-116, Batikpatroon, 'Sorasari gumyur', voor 1891.jpg
1. Collectie NMvWereldculturen, RV-847-116, Batikpatroon, 'Sorasari gumyur', voor 1891.jpg
2. Batik pedalaman - sidha drajat.JPG
2. Batik pedalaman - sidha drajat.JPG
3. Melilin Batik.jpg
3. Melilin Batik.jpg
4. Traditional indonesian instrument being played at the indonesian embassy.jpg
4. Traditional indonesian instrument being played at the indonesian embassy.jpg
5a. Traditional indonesian instruments04.jpg
5a. Traditional indonesian instruments04.jpg
5b. Traditional indonesian instruments04.jpg
5b. Traditional indonesian instruments04.jpg
5c. Traditional indonesian instruments04.jpg
5c. Traditional indonesian instruments04.jpg
6a. Collectie NMvWereldculturen, RV-847-114, Batikpatroon, 'Gringsing wayang', voor 1891.jpg
6a. Collectie NMvWereldculturen, RV-847-114, Batikpatroon, 'Gringsing wayang', voor 1891.jpg
6b. Collectie NMvWereldculturen, RV-847-114, Batikpatroon, 'Gringsing wayang', voor 1891.jpg
6b. Collectie NMvWereldculturen, RV-847-114, Batikpatroon, 'Gringsing wayang', voor 1891.jpg
I like the musical instrument ones. If I had to pick, my preference would be for banner 4 or 5a. The dog2 (talk) 16:58, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
5a is really nice.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:05, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
I find 5a to be the most eye-catching. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 21:09, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
I concur about 5a. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 23:16, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Okay, I will create the file from 5a. It's called the "Javanese naga" (w:id:Naga Jawa). A common motifs in Java, Indonesia. Bennylin (talk) 14:32, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

WV banner Javanese phrasebook - Naga.jpg

Javanese phrasebook[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Hey guys, we're discussing a new banner for the Javanese phrasebook. Please give your input at the talk page. The dog2 (talk) 16:55, 29 April 2021 (UTC)