Talk:Kraainem

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Article status[edit]

Which additions/modifications would be necessary to make this article a star article? ArticCynda (talk) 20:05, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Generically speaking, you'll find what is needed to consider an article star worthy at Wikivoyage:Article_status. Specifically speaking, you'll need to nominate it formally by following the instructions on Wikivoyage:Star_nominations. There's a lot of discussion and revision and "defending" your nomination after that, so use the handy checklist on the side at the top of the page to make sure you "have your ducks in a row". If you need any help with the steps to do any of this, let me know. DethDestroyerOfWords (talk) 20:21, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, I notice a static map is still missing so that's an issue that needs to be addressed first ArticCynda (talk) 21:29, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
I notice the formatting is not according to the Manual of style: missing hyphens in phone numbers, hyphens instead of dashes in opening hours, EUR instead of € etc. --LPfi (talk) 13:08, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
@LPfi: thanks for the feedback, I've updated the EUR to € and the hypthens to dashes, but what exactly do you mean with missing hyphens in phone numbers? The style guide doesn't mention anything about hyphens in Belgian phone numbers. ArticCynda (talk) 13:33, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
Seems I haven't fully understood the phone style. --LPfi (talk) 14:35, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Kraainem Star nomination[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Our article on Kraainem, Belgium has been improved considerably and looks up to date, so I took the liberty to nominate it for Star promotion. ArticCynda (talk) 12:26, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Roaming fees[edit]

Has the passages on roaming fees been edited since the new EU tariff regulations? I suppose the issues are no worse than elsewhere in urban EU, and I am not sure whether they need to be addressed prominently in every destination article. Now roaming fees are mentioned both in Get around and in Connect. I suppose the suggestion to download the map may make sense, but otherwise the warnings in Mobile phones may be enough. --LPfi (talk) 13:01, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

A valid point, which I've tried to address as follows. I've modified the Connect section, removing the English reference for 112 (which is mentioned in European_Union#Connect already), and elaborating on the roaming issue for operators that are not based in the EU. ArticCynda (talk) 13:17, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Star nomination[edit]

This article has recently been updated with all the template modifications (most notably for public transport) and appears to meet all the criteria for star nomination. What do other Wikivoyagers think? ArticCynda (talk) 12:22, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

  • Not yet. It is a city article, but understand has a districts section like a Huge City. I think that these would be better renamed "localities" or something, and the map changed to just show the border of the districts, not shading which makes it difficult to read the map. Alternatively this could be shown on a small static map, and the dynamic map without the shading moved to the standard section of Get Around. Carrefour is mentioned 8 times in the article, but does not have a listing. Kraainem Shopping is not "free" unless the shops give stuff away. AlasdairW (talk) 20:27, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
@AlasdairW: Thanks for the feedback, I added Carrefour as listing along with other supermarkets in a new section, and removed the (very unfortunate) "free" designation for other shops.
I lack the skills to make static maps, could you produce one for Kraainem, please? ArticCynda (talk) 08:17, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the update. I have never made a static map, and I don't have the time at the moment to try. AlasdairW (talk) 13:13, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
ArticCynda trusted me to support this nomination and do what I can to get it through. Therefore, I hope in the fairly near future to read through it and get an opinion on its nomination. Considering the user's ban for their antisemitic comments, etc., I would like to check that through, but when I did a quick search for either "Jew" or "Jews" (I can't remember which, maybe both) in the article, nothing came up that seemed like harmful language. I would like to see this become a star article, especially since ArticCynda is de facto no longer an editor here and because it's definitely a good article written by a good contributor who unfortunately went the wrong way in the end. Selfie City (talk) 03:38, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
By the way, by reading AC's first comment on User_talk:ArticCynda#Blocked, you will see what I mean in my above comment here. Honestly, saying I appreciated ArticCynda's work on Kraainem is true but at the same time a stretch from his/her point of view. But still, I'd like to see this become a star considering the article's main contributor will no longer be able to improve other articles on the website. Selfie City (talk) 03:50, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
  • So I've taken some time to read through the Understand section and I've developed an opinion. First, it's detailed, overall quite well-written, and clearly one of Wikivoyage's best articles. The districts section works with the article, and I think this is a reason for it to be a star, not for it to stay at guide status. But still I am going to vote oppose until some changes are made. Here are the changes I think should be made:
    • Shortening basically everything would be helpful. Tourists will not want to spend hours reading the article; they want to find quality with some quantity but not too much.
    • The article is not poorly written, but at the same time the writing style indicates that the writing quality could be better. Here are a few examples:
      • "The Second World War put a temporary stop to the development of South Kraainem, but from the 1950s the deforrestation accelerated and had completely urbanized the area by 1967." For a start, I'm not sure the spelling of "deforrestation" is right here, and also it's not the deforrestation that urbanizes an area. This may seem like nit-picking but if this is going to be a star article it needs to be the best of the best and, since we're the sister website of Wikipedia, our articles should be very well-written.
      • "Kraainem has 5 districts, each with a distinct personality." Personality has the word person in it. City districts are not people. Character is a better word here.
      • "Upscale residential and commercial district around the Dumon Square with expensive flats, and a large shopping district with countless overpriced boutiques." The now-stereotyped ArticCynda edit that I've often called "lively travel writing gone too far". It brings memories of other statements AC made like "more money than brains" and "thriving on ... unemployment", and travelers who have been reading the Brussels article as well may think our whole travel guide is written like this.
    • I think these are fixable, however, and in the longer term I can definitely see this going in the star article direction. I sincerely hope that no-one tries to stop the nomination purely on the basis that AC wrote it; that's a very unfair view since ArticCynda put a lot of work into the Kraainem article that should be appreciated. Selfie City (talk) 02:30, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
      • I don't necessarily agree that "personality" cannot be used as a word to describe a district. Inanimate objects and concepts are described using anthropomorphic metaphors all the time. Gizza (roam) 02:47, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
Yes, but at the same time "character" seems like a better word to me. But anyway, if you read through the understand section you will get my general message (that the article's writing quality is not bad but could be better). Selfie City (talk) 03:33, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the very detailed and unprejudiced analysis of the article, Selfie City. I really appreciate the efforts you've put into supporting Kraainems nomination. I agree with the points you made, including that the language could be further improved, and recognize that its current state is a best effort of a non-native English speaker with inevitable linguistic flaws. Ideally, the article should be copy-edited by a native English speaker. I personally still don't see a problem with referring to some shops as overpriced (particularly since at the time of writing 554 other articles on WV also make use of the word to refer to restaurants, shops, services etc.) but if there is a consensus on removing it from the Kraainem article then I don't object if it is considered in the best interest of the article's quality.
P.S.: Selfie City, I intended to leave this message on your talk page to express my appreciation, but it appears to be protected from editing, hence I left it here. Feel free to remove it after reading. Thanks! — AC
Yes, I was getting quite a lot of vandalism to my userspace. Therefore, it's now protected so only autoconfirmed users can comment there. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 14:15, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
Support Well written article. Ran a quick google search, and by far the best travel (free) travel guide to this city. One remark: perhaps there are too many illustrations in this article. It is likely not necessary to have a picture for each See listing, and doing so will be detrimental when printing the article. —The preceding comment was added by 82.132.185.65 (talkcontribs)
Some of the pictures are just of fairly boring looking houses too. I don't think there are too many, but that they are unnecessarily bunched in the 'See' section, when they could be spread more liberally around the article.
The way the districts have been handled, sticking them under 'Orientation', makes sense, but are we really sure they're necessary to list, either at all or in that formal list + coloured map way? It's only a town, a village really, of 13,000 people, so the districts themselves are tiny, are never going to be articles, and navigating such a small place shouldn't pose much difficulty.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:38, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose Significant parts of this article were written by a user whom we know to have inserted factually wrong stuff deliberately into articles to push an agenda. I would moderate the vote if we had somebody on the ground who could go check, but we don't. Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:20, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
I don’t think the personal views of AC should influence this article’s star nomination, but at the same time this article does need to be well read and checked for antisemitism and the like. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 01:21, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
This is not about the "personal opinions" of AC. It is about us knowing that no9t all written by this editor is to be trusted and said editor being (one of) the main author(s). If we had somebody local who could check this would be much less of an issue, but frankly they could be making up a bizarre war and inserting it in WV for all we know... It might not preclude guide status or even featuring, but star status is definitely a bridge too far... Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:33, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Should we slush, then? I doubt that this will be nominated to star status now. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:57, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
I doubt any support votes will come out for the Kraainem article now, but I'll wait a couple more days before slushing just in case. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:09, 12 November 2018 (UTC)