Talk:Zion National Park

The big map

This might sound a little ironic coming from a guy who just added five of his vacation photos to this page, but I think the regional map on this page is taking up way too much space--and I have a very wide resolution. Does anyone else think we should take it off, or at least shrink it? (WT-en) PerryPlanet 03:11, 11 December 2006 (EST)

Nice pics -- thanks! On my monitor my browser the map looks fine -- it's only half the width of the article and feels about right for the content. My browser isn't fully enlarged either -- it's only about 1300 pixels wide. -- (WT-en) Colin 03:17, 11 December 2006 (EST)

Now that I think about it, it's not that bad. Say, should I add the map of Zion Canyon too? It can go along the "Get Around" section (I'll move the Great White Throne pic). (WT-en) PerryPlanet 13:39, 12 December 2006 (EST) Edit: Never mind.

Sorry, but I just found this page. I am new to this. I did reduce the photos and added more images. It was getting cramped. Please feel free to enlarge them again if you feel it's better. -FrankEM

Hope I didn't go overboard...

I went ahead and added the map of Zion Canyon. I also added an infobox about the springs and hanging gardens(which I find a fascinating subject), and some info on the ranger programs.

With this, I think the article is complete! It'll probably have to go through some style/grammar editing to make it a star, but it's very close now.

And if I went too far or did something stupid, don't hesitate to let me know. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 18:44, 13 December 2006 (EST)

Nice work! I'm glad to see this article look so great as I have many happy memories of hiking the canyon... I think this article is getting close to a star! Kudos! (WT-en) Maj 21:01, 13 December 2006 (EST)

I like that infobox! FrankEM

Get out

The Get out section is a little big, the one area I can see editing back is the list of Canyon Country destinations, since we already have a link to the Canyon Country article, maybe we can bring it back to just one or two examples? (WT-en) Maj 21:05, 13 December 2006 (EST)

You definetly have a point. I don't know why Arches and Canyonlands are in the list, they're hundreds of miles away. Same with Las Vegas and the Grand Canyon, dunno why we need those. However, let's hang on to Bryce Canyon (it's fairly close), Red Canyon (on the road to Bryce), and Cedar Breaks (also pretty close). (WT-en) PerryPlanet 22:24, 13 December 2006 (EST)

Maybe for similar places, we could use the related articles feature instead? --(WT-en) Evan 22:37, 13 December 2006 (EST)

You may want to consider leaving Vegas there as it's the nearest large city, and many people visiting Vegas also visit Zion. As to using the related tag for things like the Grand Canyon, I don't know - if the Grand Canyon is "related" to Zion that opens up a pretty wide spectrum of articles that could be considered related... -- (WT-en) Ryan 23:38, 13 December 2006 (EST)

I just realized that Vegas is also the nearest major airport, so yeah, I guess it should stay. The Grand Canyon should also probably stay an individual link, since it isn't part of Canyon Country but still a very huge attraction. Also, what about Pipe Spring? Does it deserve a mention?

From Project:Park article template#Go next:

Information about how to move on from the park, and descriptions of nearby destinations. Try and include as many options as you can think of including land, air, and water. Provide a brief description of other nearby destination suggestions, neighboring cities or day-trip ideas. Don't replicate information that's up in "Get in", though.

My personal opinion is that the Grand Canyon isn't a day trip away - do people frequently go from one to the other without stopping along the way? Arches, Canyonlands, etc are probably similar. Similarly, since Pipe Spring isn't a major destination, if it's not really close to Zion I don't know if it belongs in the list. That's just my opinion though - so long as the list isn't too long and is useful to travelers it's good either way. -- (WT-en) Ryan 01:50, 14 December 2006 (EST)

Well, the Grand Canyon is pretty far away, I can't argue with that. I suppose we could put the Grand Canyon and Pipe Spring into the Get Out section on the Kanab page, that might work... (WT-en) PerryPlanet 02:48, 14 December 2006 (EST)

To be clear, I don't disagree that many visitors to Zion might also include the Grand Canyon as part of their vacation, but my concern is simply that this article is supposed to be a guide for someone visiting Zion National Park, not for someone on a family vacation through the Southwest - we have Southwest (United States of America) and other region articles for the latter case. The idea of "Get out" as I understand it is that someone could look at the Zion article and then refer to "Get out" for ideas of what's nearby for them to visit. Including a place like the Grand Canyon (eight hours drive from the South Rim) invites someone to add other destinations that might be considered on a vacation to the Southwest, rather than inviting people to add places that are in the same vicinity as Zion and that should be considered when visiting the park. -- (WT-en) Ryan 03:27, 14 December 2006 (EST)

So how about this: We keep Las Vegas, the three nearby towns, Bryce Canyon and Cedar Breaks (seeing that those are a day trip away), and the Canyon Country link, and get rid of the rest. Sound good? (WT-en) PerryPlanet 14:11, 15 December 2006 (EST)

Let's do that, and put the other parks as "related". I'll get this started. --(WT-en) Evan 14:32, 15 December 2006 (EST)

I would cut Arches and Canyonlands as well. I have to argue about Grand Canyon though. Many, many who visit Zion also hit Bryce Canyon and the North Rim of the Grand Canyon on the same trip. I do agree that the South Rim is too far away. -FrankEM

How to make Zion a Star

I am again confused. I went to the star articles and tried to add the kind of content I saw on those so that Zion would be a star, but it was mostly cut, including the photos. What sort of thing needs to be added?(WT-en) FrankEM

First, what was removed? It's a bit tough to tell what content you're referring to based on the article history. Second, I think before this article is a star it will need more information about how to get to the park, specifically information about arriving by bus and the location of the nearest airports - see Yosemite National Park#Get in for an example. I'd also like to see more information about how to get backcountry permits, and a bit more info about food options in and around the park - if there really is only one place to purchase food within the park then it would be nice to give a few sentences indicating what nearby towns have grocery and restaurant options. Last of all the article could use a bit more copyediting to avoid overlapping pictures (the canyon map and the Zion-Mt. Carmel picture don't layout very well), the Get Out section could use a bit of cleanup, and possible a pass through the rest of the article.

This article is close to a star, so you may want to nominate it to get more exposure from others. Nice work! -- (WT-en) Ryan 22:53, 30 December 2006 (EST)

Thanks! I will try and work on those items. I was not sure. I am sure others will as well. You guys at wikivoyage are very helpful! Ah! Yosemite was the star article I was looking at for ideas! :) (WT-en) FrankEM

Thanks guys! I knew those headers looked funky, but did not know how to fix them. (WT-en) FrankEM

I tried to add/do the suggestions given above. Any more suggestions? Hmmm... bus -- I forgot that one. There is a bus connection to St. George I think. There is not any bus lines going to Zion except tour busses that go through the park often.

I think this thing is very close to being a Star just as it stands. Some copyediting would be appropriate; there are a few odd constructions, errors of grammar, inconsistencies in the ways lists are presented, etc. Content-wise, it looks fantastic. Just go over it with an editor's fine-tooth comb, and bring it up again; I'm approaching the point of being ready to nominate it myself. (Incidentally, this might be a good place on which to test-fly the Project:Cooperating with WikiOutdoors collaboration that we've been discussing; WikiOutdoors needs all the help they can get.) -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 16:18, 31 December 2006 (EST)

Yahoo! :) I will try and proof again today. Help is appreciated editing masters!(WT-en) FrankEM

Yeah, it's pretty close now. I'll look carefully through this carefully and do some more editing. I've also nominated this as a Destination of the Month. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 18:32, 31 December 2006 (EST)

Great! (WT-en) FrankEM

I've removed the "By train" section - it felt confusing to me to provide Amtrak info when there is no way to get into the park by train. I also consolidated the "By RV/Camper/Yada/Yada" section into the "By car" section. Hopefully these changes make the article a bit more readable. -- (WT-en) Ryan 03:23, 2 January 2007 (EST)

It's looking good in here! Way to go everyone! (WT-en) FrankEM

Congratulations guys, it's a Star! A big thanks to all who helped improve the article, and a huge thanks to NJR ZA for making the maps! (WT-en) PerryPlanet 19:43, 22 February 2007 (EST)

Yahoo! I second what Perry said! (WT-en) FrankEM

The maps says Mt. Carmen Juction instead of Mt. Carmel Junction --- 1st glance (WT-en) FrankEM

Fixed --(WT-en) NJR_ZA 16:16, 24 February 2007 (EST)

You are awesome! Thanks for doing those maps! (WT-en) FrankEM

It's been a while, but I finally got around to adding those hiking trail to the map. Can someone that knows the park just double check that they are all OK and let me know if any changes are required. --(WT-en) NJR_ZA 19:28, 9 March 2007 (EST)

The maps seem good, but you might want to see if you can squeeze the names of the shorter trails in there, like Hidden Canyon and Angels Landing. I wouldn't worry about Weeping Rock or Court of the Patriarchs though, seeing as they're practically right there at the shuttle stop. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 19:53, 9 March 2007 (EST)

Thanks, done --(WT-en) NJR_ZA 03:31, 10 March 2007 (EST)

Oh, and you might want to put in where the Emerald Pools are too. Other than that, it looks perfect! Great job! (WT-en) PerryPlanet 13:11, 10 March 2007 (EST)