User talk:Ikan Kekek/archive

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Hello, Ikan Kekek! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Project:Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub.

I wanted to make sure you got the proper welcome! And thanks for your work on NYC. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 14:26, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

Thank you, Peter, and thanks for your work, too! (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 03:08, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

  • Hey, thanks for the compliments. Anyway, you asked about the Chinatown article - I'm planning to improve it further, the reason I took down the cuisine categories is that Wikivoyage articles don't usually divide restaurants by cuisine, they divide them by price. If you think about it, it's simpler to just have three simple categories (by price) then to have multiple categories (by cuisine), especially when a lot of those categories have only one or two listings. Anyway, the current state of the article is just temporary. (WT-en) PerryPlanet Talk 00:14, 3 August 2009 (EDT)
Thanks for creating a user page - I was wondering why someone who posted about etiquette-as-practiced-in-Manhattan had a user name that sounded Southeast Asian-ish, but now the mystery has been solved :) -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 02:04, 12 April 2011 (EDT)
Yeah. I was really bicultural as well as bilingual for most of those 2 years. And I spoke Malay with a thick Terengganu accent! I still have some traditional Malay beliefs today. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:16, 12 April 2011 (EDT)
Hi Ikan,
   Thanks for editing the page of my province,Urdaneta! You are great editor.I'm jealous but i'm happy that you edit correctly the page.Thanks!

(WT-en) Angellene10

Using talk pages

While I'll stay as long from any punctuation debate as I possibly can. Just a quick pointer, new sections on talk pages should always be added to the bottom of the page. Otherwise us old dogs that you can't teach new tricks, have trouble finding the stuff. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 17:37, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

Thanks, Stefan. I'll keep that in mind. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 22:44, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

Hi Ikan Sorry to piss you off. Don't worry this is only a school project and I just want an A. Delete whatever, I don't care as long as my teacher sees what I wrote in the history it works. Have a good one. Heatherberg

The thing is, you're doing a very good job and your contributions are much appreciated. Don't take my edits based on Wikivoyage policies too much to heart. I hope that you stick around when you no longer need to do this for a grade.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 22:42, 16 April 2011 (EDT)

Thanks for the kind comment I hope to build the page even better, I am actually in kota kinabalu Malaysia traveling right now and wikivoyage has saved me many times that I am trying to repay the favor haha. -Travellight

External links

I think you've already figured this out, but to recap, the External links policy in a nutshell is that primary sites (hotels, airlines, restaurants, etc) directly operated by the thing listed are OK, but secondary sites (booking engines, blogs, newspapers, travel guides) maintained by others are not. (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:41, 12 October 2009 (EDT)

Yeah, I did get that, thanks. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:26, 12 October 2009 (EDT)

Brooklyn districts

We have tentatively agreed on a districts scheme for Brooklyn, and I was hoping you might take a look over it and share any feedback. It would also be fantastic, of course, if you would be willing to pitch in a bit with the actual task of moving content to new districts articles and replacing that content with overview prose in the Brooklyn article itself! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 20:19, 5 November 2009 (EST)

Get out

Just a heads up that this confusingly named section actually is meant to highlight nearby destinations worth visiting, rather than transport information! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 21:05, 24 August 2010 (EDT)

Shiny buttons

It's customary to ask someone if they'd be interested in having some additional buttons prior to a nomination. You've been around for a while, know the site's policies well, and would benefit from a rollback button, so would you mind if I put you up for nomination? -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 00:29, 1 April 2011 (EDT)

Thanks, Ryan. If given the shiny new buttons, I promise not to break them.
All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:41, 1 April 2011 (EDT)
Two weeks have passed, so welcome to the admin club! You may need to log out and then log in again to see any change. Check out the Project:Administrator's handbook for instructions on how to use your shiny new buttons - while the "revert" button is pretty tough, "block", "protect" and "delete" should be handled with utmost care. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 16:47, 15 April 2011 (EDT)
Thanks, Ryan. I appreciate the confidence you all have shown in me. I expect to lean on you and the others for advice from time to time, while I learn the ropes.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:51, 15 April 2011 (EDT)
A question: What does "Rollback" do that's different from "Revert," if anything? (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:54, 15 April 2011 (EDT)
I may have made a typo above - "rollback" as described here is what I meant when I typed "revert" above. It's useful for cases of vandalism, repeated policy violations, or other cases that involve reverting one or more edits that don't require any edit summary. If you're seeing "revert" anywhere then I suspect it's the same functionality, although I'm not seeing that option on a quick perusal of recent change or history pages so if you've got questions about a specific link you might need to let me know where you're seeing it :) -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 17:02, 15 April 2011 (EDT)
"Revert" is what I mean by the "undo" button. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 17:22, 15 April 2011 (EDT)
Rollback is a single step, which saves time but does not allow you to enter an edit summary. It automatically marks the edits in question as "patrolled" and removes all consecutive contributions that a person has made (undo removes only a single edit) so if someone makes five malicious edits in a row then rollback will remove all of them. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 17:28, 15 April 2011 (EDT)

Car Hire Listing Question

Hi Ikan, I notice you remove my work about car hire service from Yangshuo page. I think it is the same as hotel and restaurant listing. Should be okay to put it there.

I posted about this in the "Talk" (discussion) page for Yangshuo, so it's best to discuss it there, but part of the problem is what seems to me a touty tone in your description. But as I said, let's discuss the question there, where any other users interested in Yangshuo can easily address it.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 03:46, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

hi Ikan,

My car rental site is being removed from the link

the policy says "Rental cars operators, in cities where they are common (10 or more operating in the city). Typically we don't provide details of national car rental chains in local guides. Providing details at the national level, and mentioning the name and location at local level is sufficient if required. " There is only one other listing. is there something wrong with my listing (WT-en) Ano0810 09:36, 4 June 2011 (EDT)ano0810

Hi. (1) Please identify yourself on talk pages by typing 4 tildes (the "~" key) in a row at the end of your post, so that I know who you are. I'm guessing you are the owner of HemKund Sahib Tours and Travel? If so, you would have to satisfy the criteria under Project:Activity listings#Tour listings. In any case, you could have at most one listing and it would have to be in the right format (again, read Project:Activity listings). If this doesn't answer your questions, please clarify what you are asking about.
All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 01:15, 4 June 2011 (EDT)

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek Thank you for the information. I have read through the links provided and published in accordance with the guidelines. Please let me know if there is something more I could do to make the listing better. (WT-en) Ano0810 10:01, 4 June 2011 (EDT)ano0810

The problem is, it's not clear from either your listing or your website what services you provide. If you are a tour provider, that lack of clarity makes you out of compliance with the criteria for acceptable tour listings, under Project:Activity listings#Tour listings.

made some more changes (WT-en) Ano0810 19:30, 4 June 2011 (EDT)ano0810

I saw. I regret that I have to delete your listing for violating the criteria on tour listings that I linked for you above. You are offering a non-specific tour listing that in no way indicates how an independent traveler can't do it by him-/herself. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:32, 4 June 2011 (EDT)

There is another listing in the same section. Could you throw some light on how that follows the rules laid down the wiki? Thnx(WT-en) Ano0810 19:59, 4 June 2011 (EDT)

If you think a listing is against the rules, Project:Plunge forward and delete it yourself, giving your reason in your editing "Summary". I think you mean the "AC Volvo" listing, which is a bit confusing, so I don't know whether to delete it or not. You probably know better whether it's merely informational or really promotional. But that said, if it's really just a listing for a bus trip, not a tour agency, it's probably fine. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 20:05, 4 June 2011 (EDT)

Edit Summaries

Quick note in case you weren't aware of this before, but when you are entering text in edit summaries, if you use wiki link formats instead of full URLs, the link will be clickable from the recent changes and history pages. For example, instead of:

Hard revert. Edit to eliminate 1st-person language and repost. which case the URL shows up in the edit summary as plain text, you can write:

Hard revert. Edit to eliminate 1st-person language and repost. Project:First person pronouns which case the URL will be a clickable link in the edit summary. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 12:15, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

Thanks, Ryan. All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 18:04, 14 April 2011 (EDT)


Thanks for helping patrolling, but please remember to mark as patrolled, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 17:39, 18 April 2011 (EDT)

I don't mark articles as patrolled if instead of just patrolling them, I edit them. Are you suggesting that I marked them as patrolled in such instances? If so, please explain. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 01:01, 19 April 2011 (EDT)
I may not understand the purpose of marking a revision as "patrolled." I have been operating on the basis that doing so means that I approve of the edit. What does it actually mean? (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 03:43, 19 April 2011 (EDT)
It means that you either approve of the edit or have fixed the part of the edit that you do not approve. So clicken 'mark as patrolled' tells the rest of us that we do not need to check the edit because you have done it already, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 07:41, 19 April 2011 (EDT)
I see. Thanks for explaining. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 10:44, 19 April 2011 (EDT)

Once again, thanks for patrolling. One hint: I see you patrol one edit at a time, which of course is ok, but if you would like to patrol all recent changes to one artilce in one move, you can go to Prefences > Recent changes, and click 'Enhanced recent changes (JavaScript)', regards, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 05:28, 25 April 2011 (EDT)

Thanks. I'll try that and see how it works. All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 05:34, 25 April 2011 (EDT)
It really will make a difference. When I first discovered that feature it was like a whole new world of Wikivoyage efficiency :). --(WT-en) Burmesedays 06:23, 25 April 2011 (EDT)


Hi! I have seen your comment on vfd concerning Forex. Felix is not an admin, so when he sees spam he needs to label with vfd so an admin sees it and hits the delete button. (WT-en) jan 04:33, 29 April 2011 (EDT)

Thanks. I understand. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 14:44, 29 April 2011 (EDT)

Pure Lotus Edits - Yangshuo China

You asked about my edits on the above page. The reason that I am changing the Pure lotus listing is simple. It is wrong. I am a freelance travel writer on commission for a large US publisher. I am writing this from Yangshuo. In order to update the current edition info of the book that I am working on that includes Pure Lotus, I went to the restaurant myself. I confronted both the manager Xiao Dai, and the owner Malcom The, about the criticisms on the wikivoyage page, and both assured me that they are unfounded. Perhaps you have some extra information that I do not know about? I am not sure who wrote the original piece but it seems unfair that one person's opinion, offering no additional explanation should be acceptable as a wikivoyage listing. Sbouldn't wikivoyage be based on facts rather than personal opinions? Isn't that what Tripadvisor is for? I hope that this explains my edits. Chris

No, I don't have more information. All you had to do was explain why you're making the edits, which you now have done. You should be able to understand that we have quite a lot of touters and self-interested people here who would make the kind of edits you made without comment for commercial reasons, and not in the interest of accuracy. So we can't just assume there's a good reason for the kind of edit you made.
As for the question you ask about facts vs. opinions: Wikivoyage shouldn't be a purveyor of false information, but it is not supposed to be objective. The policy is summed up here: Project:Be fair
Thanks for explaining things, and please keep contributing but explain in the editing Summary why you're making any non-obvious changes.
All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 17:31, 9 May 2011 (EDT)


It looks like an inadvertent reversion caused me to repost some graffiti on May 2, 2011 in the Hinchinbrook Island guide. Sorry about that. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:51, 15 May 2011 (EDT)

Komodo National Park

Hi there. Just out of courtesy I want to let you know that I have reverted your deletion here [1], as this is the correct article for that operator (who is a good one). I realise why you deleted it as the user inserted it into the region and sub-region articles as well, but I think it ought to stay in the correct article. Cheers --(WT-en) Burmesedays 01:28, 4 June 2011 (EDT)

Thanks for the courtesy, and for your knowledgeable second opinion. All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 01:36, 4 June 2011 (EDT)

NYC pizza

Thanks for offering the local perspective on that John's Pizzeria listing I added. I'm not familiar with the NYC pizza scene, but after watching this Daily Show clip I figured I'd better make sure these places were at least mentioned on Wikivoyage. ;) (WT-en) PerryPlanet Talk 19:43, 4 June 2011 (EDT)

That was a hilarious segment! And you are making good additions, which are much appreciated. I wouldn't recommend that location of John's, but it is extremely popular, though mostly with tourists. We New Yorkers usually spend as little time as possible at Times Square, nowadays. :-) All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:50, 4 June 2011 (EDT)
Whoa, that video was legendary! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 12:46, 7 June 2011 (EDT)

As requested

Here you go :) Wikivoyage_talk:User_ban_nominations#User_talk:Xiali1208. Cheers. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 11:27, 11 June 2011 (EDT)


Hi there (with apologies for a cut and paste message). I am trying to muster up some interest again in the now almost moribund Destination of the Month feature. This used to be one of our more dynamic initiatives with lots of debate. Sadly, that is no longer the case. I have made some new nominations to try to get it going again. If you have a moment please pop over there. And some nominations would be good if you can think of any! Thanks. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:22, 9 July 2011 (EDT)

Wadi Rum

Hello Ikan Kekek,

Thank you to take care of wikivoyage pages.

You ask if Jordantracks is an abusive company. We also remark that people are making a lot of changes in the page, adding and deleting informations about us and about others. The final result appears that Jordantracks can't be mention in the same way than the others and is always the one removed. Could you please help for this page as it would be good that everyone have the chance to appear in the same way.

Kind regards,


Hi, Saleem, and thanks for contacting me. Are you representing Jordantracks? I would suggest that you post to the "Talk" page of the Wadi Rum guide if you believe you are being unfairly treated, rather than that you or someone else presumably representing Jordantracks has made abusive edits. Because what I observe is that you or someone else was posting up to 4 separate entries for Jordantracks and deleting competitors' information. I already made clear what was wrong here - [[2]] - among other places. There is also a very firm policy against business owners (managers, etc.) deleting competitors' listings, but it should be so obvious that's wrong, and at least looks and smells so much like bad faith, that I don't feel I need to link to the policy.
If you want to post an entry for your agency, do so, do it once, don't tout or use 1st-person language, and don't delete or edit any other agency's listing.
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 03:39, 13 July 2011 (EDT)
PS: It's customary to sign posts in "Talk" pages - though not guides - by typing 4 tildes (the "~" key) in a row at the end of one's post.

Koh Tao

Hello Ikan Kekek,

thank you for pointing out that there should be only one business listing, but as you might know diving and freediving are quite different and its not about having Alvaro Diving listed twice, but to have a listing in the right category. Since there is a "diving" and a separate "freediving" section Alvaro Diving belongs in both of them, otherwise you will find only one company in the freediving section and the other one somewhere hidden amongst the dive shops. do you have any suggestions on how to deal with the category listings other then deleting Alvaro Diving all the time?? Regards, Andreas

Sure, Andreas, and thanks for asking. Pick which type of diving you want to emphasize more, put the listing in that section, and indicate in your listing that you offer the other activity, too. That will enable you to put the information out there, and I believe it's probably the only solution that conforms to Wikivoyage's listing policy.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 05:01, 18 July 2011 (EDT)


Hi! Currently there are some trolls that delete and move articles a lot. There is not need to argue with them as they vandalise. Please immediately block them and delete their created mess. Thank you, (WT-en) jan 04:08, 4 August 2011 (EDT)

Please point out instances of this happening. I am here only part of the time and don't see everything that happens.
That said, I probably wouldn't block a user right away unless they were an obvious spambot. We all need to deal with a certain degree of frustration and use some measure of restraint. Some users start out disruptively but improve greatly. I've certainly seen that with some users who used to be seemingly inveterate touters.
All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:15, 4 August 2011 (EDT)


I am just checking, do you have an account on Wikivoyage Shared? If yes, you may, if you like, become an administrator there, which are privileges automatically given to admins from other language versions that want them. If not, I suppose you might prefer to first become acquainted with the policies and procedures over there ;) --(WT-en) Peter Talk 18:20, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

Hi, Peter. No, I don't have an account there. So I'm definitely not ready to become an administrator there at this time. :-) All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 00:54, 11 August 2011 (EDT)



I realise that lately you are often plying a lone battle with edit patrolling. Much of that is due to other regular patrollers being so frustrated by the slowness of the site. Huge kudos to you for carrying on with this against the odds. You certainly deserve one of these. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 07:11, 26 August 2011 (EDT)

Thanks for the appreciation, Burmesedays. I, too, am frustrated by the slowness of the site.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:02, 26 August 2011 (EDT)


Hi Ikan, I can understand your confusion. The shallow and sketchy reporting on Libya by the worlds media is not particularly informing, not in an way that is reality based anyway. There seems to be a determined move to legitimise the NTC by NATO allied governments and their media services but even the National Transitional Council do not claim to have formed a government. Indeed they recently again suspended plans to do so. They are subject to considerable internal divisions and conflict and occasionally bump each other off. Some qualified commentators consider that the place is going to go downhill even further and I will not be surprised if this odd assemblage of provocateurs, traitors and defectors from the original government, various ex-muǧāhidūn and so-called al-Qaeda elements don't go even more feral soon and start shooting at each other now that they are apparently running out members of the Libyan armed forces, Gaddafi supporters and angry residents to blaze away at. It would be naive to expect any democratic form of governance to emerge in Libya in the foreseeable future. As for the NTC, Mahmoud Jibril recently announced he is quitting. "We have moved into a political struggle with no boundaries," ... "The political struggle requires finances, organization, arms and ideologies,".... "I am afraid I don't have any of this." Indeed what the western press avoids reporting is that many of these so called rebels are not even part of the NTC and are likely to become combative if the current controlling elements of the NTC try to exert power as a national governing body. Indeed even putting the NTC flag in the article is highly questionable. The African Union certainly had a lot of difficulty in recognising these people as a legitimate authority in Libya. It must not be overlooked that Libya is flooded with a lot of fools carrying weapons and a lot of them have become accustomed to making their point of view understood by shooting at those who disagree with them. Indeed any detailed analysis of the situation in Libya will reveal a picture almost diametrically opposed to that presented in the western media. It has every chance of turning into a madhouse of quasi corporate governance mixed up with combative and competing private militias and extremist groups squabbling, maneuvering assassinating and shooting at each other. Libya is now a very unstable, fractured nation with a seriously damaged infrastructure from the NATO aerial campaign and ground based conflicts and no established civil governance. Libya is most certainly not a stable and suitable destination for a traveller and is unlikely to be so for some time. I think the Libyan articles are going to be subject to ongoing manipulation and posturing by self effected propagandists for some time. Lets just try and steer it toward the interests of the traveller whenever this sort of recent editing occurs. The warningbox needs some subtle rewriting to accommodate the most recent events and the possible cessation of air and missile strikes. -- cheers --(WT-en) felix 06:31, 22 October 2011 (EDT)

I certainly agree with you - the traveller comes first, propaganda be damned. Thanks for all you do, felix. You are an indefatigable editor! All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 20:31, 22 October 2011 (EDT)


Hi Ikan,

im suprised that most of articles are lacking info, i got my info through wikipedia as noticed most of the articles have used information from wikipedia. is that ok?. Sorry im new at this--(WT-en) Anthrogex11 14:41, 10 November 2011 (EST)

Hi. Have a look here: Project:Cooperating with Wikipedia. I think this is probably the key point:
"Wikipedia and Wikivoyage have compatible licensing, and it is technically possible to share content between the two provided the license requirements are followed; in general this entails providing attribution indicating the source from which the content was taken using the Wikipedia attribution template.
However, think carefully before doing this, and discuss it with others. Wikipedia and Wikivoyage have distinct goals, and forking large amounts of content from one project to the other creates wasteful duplication, and can actually stifle the development of creative, original content. In most cases, linking from one to the other would be a better choice.
As a rule, any significant copy-pasting of Wikipedia text to Wikivoyage is not permitted, while borrowing the odd single turn of phrase when your writers' brain is stalling is allowed."
So basically, what I'd say is don't copy and paste to any large extent, but taking travel-related information from Wikipedia and paraphrasing it is fine.
You might also want to run this by folks at the Travellers' Pub. I haven't been an administrator on this site very long, and others have much more experience with this kind of issue.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 21:45, 10 November 2011 (EST)

Hi Ikan, sorry I'm new to writing for Wikis. All my work seems to have gone. I can find it in older versions, but can't understand what's going on. I see you made a comment. Was it rolled back? I tried to edit it to remove the first person as much as I could, but in some cases not possible. Thanks.

Who is this and what article is this in reference to? Please sign your posts on "Talk" pages by typing 4 tildes (the "~" key) in a row before pressing "Enter." But in any case, please explain enough of what you're talking about that I can understand what happened and where. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 13:18, 12 November 2011 (EST)
OK, I see from the History that you are Gautam Khanna, but when I click on your contributions, your edit of the Changsha article is the current version. It looks like none of your edits were reverted (deleted), and the only edit I made was to change "defend" to "defended."
In looking through your helpful contributions to the article, the only problem I'm seeing is the use of first-person language, which is not part of the style of this site. So please read Project:First person pronouns and Project:Tone. When you have time, you can also look at Project:Manual of style. In any case, your 1st-person language and accounts will eventually be deleted or edited by someone, but you posted a lot of good content, and I thank you for that. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 13:25, 12 November 2011 (EST)

Mandarmani hijackers-the Bengal cowboys

Hi Ikan, regarding that recent MB Resorts edit...

Here are some of the other appearances of the contact number from that listing you just reverted due to the excessive Capitalisations. I thought I recognised the number and so I checked in my brief notes on the articles and other web listings relating to the Bengal area that have the sticky finger markings of these characters all over them

  • Bakkhali Hotel Amarabati 8100291011
  • Mandarmani / Tajpu 91 33 8100291011 from Hotel Sonarbangla Resorts
  • Digha‎ Hotel Dolphin 8100291011
  • Digha‎ Rojana Beach 91 33 8100291011

The URL is just a bait job as well.

I think it is reasonable to assume that (WT-en) M.B.Resorts is not playing the game straight. I have looked him over and this single edit has been the only activity with that account so far. Seeing as Mr Ryan likes to deal with these nefarious sorts of things I will leave him a note to have a look at this message here, I assume he might like to spam block the URL and that tel number, though I thought that number had already been dealt with when I raised it months ago after doing those serious sweep outs of the Bengali articles. I do not have the necessary buttons myself so I cannot send him to the bottom of the sea to visit the sea shells.-- (WT-en) felix 07:14, 15 November 2011 (EST)

There are a lot of these kinds of spammers/scammers. And thanks for being so vigilant and for tirelessly detouting and reformatting so many articles - you are a gem! (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 13:10, 18 November 2011 (EST)


Hi Ikan - I restored the IATA article that you speedy deleted to put it through the normal VFD process. While it's something that will almost certainly be deleted, it looks like it was created in good faith and there were three articles that linked to that subject, so using the normal VFD process seems like the right approach. Please understand that I don't think you did anything wrong - I just think this is (barley) enough of a borderline case that it makes sense to follow the normal procedure for deletion. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 12:25, 18 November 2011 (EST)

Thanks for the heads-up. All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 13:08, 18 November 2011 (EST)

liked your descriptive welcome messages..

like your welcome message to new users so much better than the standard one.. --(WT-en) Inas 02:06, 28 November 2011 (EST)

Thanks. I liked one you posted recently. Glad I was able to inspire you! (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:58, 28 November 2011 (EST)

El Salvador

Hi Ikan. I'm a Brazilian user, and mostly act on the Portuguese version of Wikivoyage, but stay alert in English as well, I've come to love and support the Wiktravel standards and format. Maybe you should check out the recent edits about El Salvador, one user who's most likely a publicist for the Tortuga Verde resort did a lot of entries that smell of toutism. Perhaps I'm a little high strung about it then I decided it's best to ask expert advice about it. Let's keep Wikivoyage up where it deserves! All the best. 18:50, 9 December 2011 (EST)

Hello. I have been looking at those entries and made some conservative edits. I am troubled by the spamming of the same information to several guides, as well as the listing a single resort in more than one place, which is forbidden, and which you were completely right to revert. Thank you for your help, and I hope you stick around and continue to help us patrol those articles.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:04, 9 December 2011 (EST)


Hi, i just edited the bucharest hostels list, i added my hostel and removed 2 other hostels that have been closed 2 years ago, namely east hostel and vila helga. I noticed you reverted the edits. I would like then to just add my hostel, and leave the other 2 there , even if they dont exit. Could i do that? Thanks

Hi. I just added your IP to keep things straight. It's customary to sign your name in "Talk" pages by typing 4 tildes (the "~" key) in a row before pressing "Enter," and it's also customary to start a new section at the bottom of the page.
All that aside, it sounds like your edits were totally valid; all you needed to do was explain them in an edit summary before you did them. Go ahead and put up your listing, but avoid first person, and redelete the listings for the closed hostels. Indicate in your edit summary "added listing, deleting listings for closed hostels."
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:21, 19 December 2011 (EST)
Nevermind; I deleted those listings. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:22, 19 December 2011 (EST)

Vang Vieng

Hi Ikan, Run your eyes over this group of edits, I would appreciate your POV. -- (WT-en) felix 14:59, 20 December 2011 (EST)

Hi, Felix. The thing that jumps out at me is the allegations about the police. But I have no personal knowledge about the behavior of the police in Vang Vieng, so I'm in no position to offer an opinion. Otherwise, "Politically incorrect jokes are a must" is a strange thing to put in a "Sleep" listing but nothing I care all that much about.
What jumps out at you?
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:29, 20 December 2011 (EST)
I feel prety much the same I guess. I was going to leave it as was but thought it might be good to get a second opinion as it is a bit odd. I also have no direct knowledge regarding the local plods. I guess it would not be a worlds first instance if there was some local funny business going on. I will just leave it I reckon. Sounds like eating rice porridge there has a few worrying issues, I will bear that in mind if I am there and feel a bit hungry for some bubur. It also seems that the guy he is most disturbed about works for the immigration services anyway, and not the police. I think it is the tourists that would have me more worried than the police in Vang Vieng, the place seems a bit unhinged. -- hope you are keeping well... oh BTY I did a little tidy up on Pedasi and did a listing edit on the apartment listing on the discussion page. --cheers - (WT-en) felix 16:49, 20 December 2011 (EST)
Yes, I saw that. Thank you.
If you have a chance, I'd also like some help with M'Hamid. I posted for help in the Travellers' Guide, but hardly anyone seems to be reading that, lately. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:55, 20 December 2011 (EST)
  • I have gone through the listing of camel and 4x4 tours and made some suggestions on the Discussion page. I think we might need to do a bit of a spring cleaning there. I think you would be quite justified in making some bold changes. I am uncertain about the listings as a whole, I guess as it seems to be such a feature of that town then it deserves such a dominating section in the article. The section stands out as the article is otherwise quite undeveloped, makes it lok a bit like a listing venue fo various camel and 4x4 trek operators, some of which should probably be cleaned out per general WT guidelines. Have a look over my Remove/Retain comments and if you agree then I think we should just do it. Certainly I would support you in that action.-- (WT-en) felix 08:03, 21 December 2011 (EST)
Pisa article. "If these are really sights, they should be moved back to "See," but if they were "mythic" educational institutions, they would be imaginary!". Quite right to move them as you did, I was so amused by the mythic educational institutions" I could not bring myself to do it. Leaning towers and mythic educational institutions have a certain symbiosis when appraised in the middle of the night. I guess really I should have fixed it up when I did the small tidy up there last night but the outbreak of serial walkingstreethostel edit reverts sort of distracted me. -- (WT-en) felix 08:03, 21 December 2011 (EST)


do i have a reason for removing my listing from manhattan? 04:16, 7 January 2012 (EST)tarasnake

What listing? (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:21, 7 January 2012 (EST)


I have seen your discussion on Jjtk talk page. Only as an admin the rollback leads to automatic patrolling. All non-Admin user need to click seperate for patrolling. (WT-en) Jc8136 06:06, 16 January 2012 (EST)

I see. Thanks for explaining. I had forgotten that rollback is an administrative function and that non-administrators have to revert. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 06:31, 16 January 2012 (EST)


I'm not a big grammar person, but regarding this revert, "...Secretary of State, William H. Seward (1801-1872), who...", while the second comma might be OK, the first one is questionable. For example, you wouldn't write "action by President, Barack Obama, who...". In any case, not a big deal, but the English student in me wanted to defend my grammar knowledge :) -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 01:39, 20 January 2012 (EST)

You're right: I misread it to say "the Secretary of State, William H. Seward." I'll revert my edit. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 01:45, 20 January 2012 (EST)

Piatra Craiului National Park

Hi, I changed my remark about a EU founded road passing the house of the minister of tourism to a more neutral sentence myself. Knowing the corruption in Romania it does not seem to be a coincedence when she has a house there. Especially when driving on the road you wonder why they ever built it. At the other hand I only heard about this house from a local. I would like to make this statement only when the house is realy there and some more proof of corruption can be found. I would like to re-undo your action.

--(WT-en) Bfwelter 11:08, 20 January 2012 (EST)

Go right ahead. Thanks for the explanation.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 17:48, 20 January 2012 (EST)


It's all written in Turkish and lately we had a couple of turkish articles that don't belong here. Is it worth to keep or not? Regards, (WT-en) Jc8136 08:43, 24 January 2012 (EST)

Hi. I moved your post to a new section at the bottom of this talk page in order to be able to read it and reply. Someone deleted the Turkish-language article in question in the interim. Any new article in that's not written in English should be deleted, and any edits not in English should be reverted. There are Wikivoyage sites in other languages, where a Turkish-language article might be relevant, but I suspect this article was probably advertising spam.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 00:12, 25 January 2012 (EST)
Incidently, on top of being in Turkish, that article was a non-travel-related information page about the state of wind power generation in Turkey. (WT-en) texugo 00:27, 25 January 2012 (EST)
I assumed it was spam. I always assume anything article posted in a non-English language is spam, and that's been true with languages I understand, too. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 00:32, 25 January 2012 (EST)

Bangkok bicycle tours

I'm not sure why you have removed [5] all the bicycle tours in Bangkok? They are a value-added activity. Cycling on your own in Bangkok is virtually impossible, as it it is incredibly hazardous. A cycling trip would definitely need to be done in some kind of tour. --(WT-en) Globe-trotter 04:00, 25 January 2012 (EST)

In that case, the listings should be restored but have to be realphabetized and some have to be detouted. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:21, 25 January 2012 (EST)

La Paz

Hi Ikan K, sorry I only noticed your post on the pub page well after I put the comments on the La Paz discussion page. I had been watching it for a while and thought about trying to give you some support but backed away as I could not readily identify a way to assist. Plus our electricity is on and off so often now that it is like a disco light show. It is normally bad here but there is also a cyclone not to far away and things have going a bit crazy with trees going over and killing people and ships capsizing or threatening to do so from the ferocious waves. Accordingly our internet connection here comes on and off rather frequently. I hope my comments on the La Paz page do assist. It is certainly a difficult and sometimes vexing problem and this particular listing although it appears quite legitimate still bears some issues with our understanding of the prevailing policies. Even with tour guides, some of them may be highly qualified and have something literally unique to contribute to a travellers experience that is otherwise unavailable. Very hard for us to determine that, although sometimes the 'can the traveller do it on their own' aspect will assist with that one. I think you explained it al very well on the La Paz Talk page but equally I can understand the frustration and POV of the person wishing to list his friend who provides the tuition services, especially as she was listed previously without event. Cheers -- (WT-en) felix 13:13, 28 January 2012 (EST)

Felix: Be safe! And thanks, as always, for your thoughtful perspective. All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 18:13, 28 January 2012 (EST)

Banaue tour guides

The two tour guides, one of them a driver, listed in the Do section seem to be in conflict with the general policies on listing tour guides. They do not seem to be doing anything that requires a permit or restricted areas access and do not appear to be taking anyone to a place that they could not go to themselves. I do not though that one of them is described as providing "regular treks in the Northern Luzon, but also some extreme activities". this is not really defined very clearly though. He is described as "accredited" but it is not explained by who he is 'accredited' or what it is that he is accredited to do. I think I would be inclined to delete them both, or move them to the Talk page and leave them there for discussion.-- (WT-en) felix 13:22, 28 January 2012 (EST)


I was hoping I could include you in an ongoing discussion group for WT admins, to which I realized you are not subscribed. If you'd like to join in, please email me, and I will send the Google Groups invite to the email of your choosing. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 16:49, 9 February 2012 (EST)

It looks like I can't email you unless I want to make my email address visible to all users here. If you can see a way around that, please let me know. All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:10, 10 February 2012 (EST)
I guess the best way would be to enable it, send me an email, and then disable it. By the way, enabling email won't actually make your email visible to the internet. It just makes it possible to send you an email (and, of course, if you reply to that, your email will be made clear to the recipient). --(WT-en) Peter Talk 14:22, 10 February 2012 (EST)


Thanks for fixing that typo, I think my eyes need testing. -- (WT-en) felix 08:48, 23 February 2012 (EST)

You do a great job, and it's easy to miss things like that. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 15:02, 23 February 2012 (EST)

Personal Talk Page Edits

Hello Ivan,

After I edited my talk page recently, you reverted it with a note stating: "You are not allowed to remove content from your user talk page". I believe this may be in error. The closest policy I can find is: "In general, conversations aren't deleted from talk pages but are instead archived when they are old or no longer relevant. To archive discussions simply create a new page such as User talk:Mypage/Archive and copy the old discussions to it."

If I'm in error, please direct me to the appropriate policy. Thanks!

In the mean time, I have gone ahead and moved it to an archive page as discussed in the policy.

My name isn't Ivan, first of all. But archiving is not the same as deleting. Every talk page is a record of discussions, and can't just be deleted unilaterally. There is a Votes for deletion procedure for proposed deletions of pages that aren't completely obvious candidates for speedy deletion. And I'm unconvinced the content you deleted is no longer relevant. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 22:54, 26 February 2012 (EST)
So your argument is that discussion that's less than a month old is "old or no longer relevant"? Very weak argument. I disagree. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 23:22, 26 February 2012 (EST)

Lima regional listings

Hi IK, good spotting. I did not even notice the listings were out of place, indeed I think I probably just went there to patrol an edit and got caught up in a little tidy up while I was there but did not pay any attention to the relative hierarchical status of the article. Those listings should be moved out but I do not know the area well enough to confidently move any listings into the correct sub-articles. BTY have a look over La Paz and make sure that you approve. I came in after the listing was restored and did a mild article-wide tidy up and left a welcome note on the contributors Talk page thanking them for their efforts as I noticed that neither of us had done that. I assume you are comfortable with the outcome. I will try and keep an eye on that article as well following the recent changes to those language schools. --Salam ke mr ikan-- (WT-en) felix 05:00, 3 March 2012 (EST).

I'm not familiar with Lima, either. I'll have a look at the La Paz article within a couple of days.
Yang ikhlas,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 05:34, 3 March 2012 (EST)


On the off chance that you haven't heard the "please do not feed the trolls" mantra that is standard on wikis, it's generally best to pay vandals as little attention as possible. User talk page messages such as this one are often just enough to let them know that they've gotten under someone's skin, and may be enough to encourage them to continue. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 19:07, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

I hear you. I posted that as a record, so that we can remember to block the user for a longer amount of time next time, but I can do that in a matter-of-fact way next time or just post nothing. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:56, 18 March 2012 (EDT)
You'll see any previous blocks if you go to re-block a user (for example), even after the blocks have expired. Makes it easy to avoid other acknowledgement. -- (WT-en) D. Guillaime 21:01, 18 March 2012 (EDT)
I didn't realize that. Thanks for letting me know. I will act accordingly. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 21:27, 18 March 2012 (EDT)
Thanks for clarifying - I figured there was a reason for the talk page posting, but wanted to note the "do not feed" advice just in case. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 00:22, 19 March 2012 (EDT)
I'm glad you did. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 01:05, 19 March 2012 (EDT)

Nuweiba posting

Hi Ikan, saw you removed an external link to Instead of deleting a useful link, you could have moved it/made sure it was in the right format? There is hardly any info on Nuweiba and what is on Wikivoyage is extremely outdated, so I thought the above mentioned link might be useful to the audience of Wikivoyage. But if you think Wikivoyage is better off without useful info, that's okay for me too. Regards, Ali

Nuweiba posting

Hi Ilkan, saw you removed an external link to Instead of deleting a useful link, you could have moved it/made sure it was in the right format? There is hardly any info on Nuweiba and what is on Wikivoyage is extremely outdated, so I thought the above mentioned link might be useful to the audience of Wikivoyage. But if you think Wikivoyage is better off without useful info, that's okay for me too. Regards, Ali

Hi, Ali. As I wrote in my editing summary, which you can see at [6], portals cannot be linked on Wikivoyage, per the policy detailed at this link: xl, and specifically Project:External links#What not to link to. If you would like to suggest changes to that policy, the place to have that discussion is at Project:External links. I don't think a suggestion to change the external links policy would be successful, however, because information portals are competitors with this guide, and I won't even bring up likely responses to any suggestion of allowing listings of hotel reservation or ticket purchasing portals - but again, discuss them in that talk page if you feel strongly, because that's the place where decisions can be made. Under current guidelines, it simply is not possible to list a portal. However, useful, relevant, and non-touty information on that portal can be summarized or paraphrased and put into the Nuweiba article.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:35, 13 April 2012 (EDT)

Last Vientiane Revert

The reference to iSpot was intended to supplement the wikivoyageers to Vientiane as it is a free information center. It is not a Tour Agency or Operator. If not on grounds of Tour, what would be the nature of the revert? Thanks!

Hi. Those were the grounds. If it's really not selling anything, it's probably fine to list it, but you'll get more visibility for the discussion of why it's OK if you post a message on Talk:Vientiane. And when you do, please sign it by typing 4 tildes (the "`" key) in a row.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:36, 20 April 2012 (EDT)
I may have been too hasty in my last post. xl should be looked at, too. Post to Talk:Vientiane, and let's discuss it. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:49, 20 April 2012 (EDT)
Thanks, will do


I removed the permanent block on this account as it doesn't look like a bot to me - there weren't any URLs on the user page, and the edits weren't done immediately after user registration, which are both usually good "tells" for a bot. However, a temp block might be warranted if the user continues to upload advertising logos and put tour advertising on the user page. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 01:59, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

OK, let's see. But I think this user will be a continual problem. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:15, 25 April 2012 (EDT)
Feel free to use shorter term blocks if that's the case - my only concern is that infinite blocks are a fairly harsh measure, and are only meant to be used in rare cases, such as when there isn't a real user operating the account. On a related note, thanks yet again for all of your patrolling - you have far more tolerance for reviewing edits than I do! -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 11:04, 25 April 2012 (EDT)
Certainly. And I do understand that, given any doubt, it is best not to block an account permanently. So I appreciate your decision. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 14:27, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

Car rental provider listing

Hi Ikan, We are a car rental service providers, we are not typical aggregators. We take care of end to end car rental service in 75+ cities in India to make tourist's journey easy and convenient,We own the customers (We provide the service; if any issue customer can directly contact us)hence I am not violating any rules.Look forward to hearing from you. Thank you. - Unsigned Nehapb

Dear Nehapb:
I hope you don't mind that I took the liberty of creating a new section at the bottom of this page and moving your post there, for the sake of easier reading.
This is from the FAQ on your website:
"What is is an online car rental booking service currently available across 75 cities in India. Our service enables customers to search for car rental/hire options in terms of operators, vehicle type, price points and then make an online reservation by making an advance payment."
"Why can’t I book from an operator directly?
Your favourite operator in your home city may or may not have operations in other cities. By using, you get access to a cross section of operators across cities, vehicles and prices giving you the freedom of choice."
Whether you are a typical booking service or not, I cannot judge, but you are very clearly and avowedly a booking service, and because of that, you may not be linked or have listings on this site. If you would like to argue that Wikivoyage's policy on booking services ill serves travellers in some way and should be changed, you are welcome to go to Project:External links and start a new thread at the bottom of the page. If you do, please sign your post, as is customary on talk pages, by typing the tilde key (~) 4 times in a row before pressing "Enter" at the end of your post. A discussion might be good for the site, so I would encourage you to set forth your arguments there.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 06:17, 7 May 2012 (EDT)

Thank You.

Utrecht Free Tours

Hi, just wanted to let you know I just found out I was the second person trying to add the Utrecht Free Tours to wikivoyage. I just red the guidelines on activity listings and will try to write something that complies to it. We are definately offering an experience that adds somethings to visiting Utrecht, and we are 100% non profit (even the tips are used to invest in a better tour). I will try so suggest that it is nice to take a free tour in Utrecht without referring to OUR free tour. IF that is not right, please help me in finding out what IS right and what is the difference between the Utrecht Free Tour and the Riga Free Tour [7] thnx, Jasper

Hi, Jasper. Your proposed edit sounds fine to me, as long as it's a comment and not an entry, but it's possible some other volunteer editors may not agree, in which case it would be best to discuss this in Talk:Utrecht. The Riga listing shouldn't be there, either, but please understand that these kinds of edits are often put back just as quickly as they are removed, so at any particular time, you may see a listing that shouldn't be there. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 17:38, 7 May 2012 (EDT)

(WT-en) Anand Ashram

Hi Ikan, I am very unconvinced concerning this content introduced into the Bali article. I have edited the recent reinstatement of the content however I note it was previously removed by Ryan (due to touting) and has returned, still with a touty emphasis. I have not seen the publication so it is difficult to assess the appropriateness of the content in a travellers context. I have left a note on Ryan's talk page as well as yours as he has been involved in corrective edits to Anand Ashram related content. I am also a little curious about (WT-en) Adisucipta and obviously the new contributions in the reading section of the Bali article raises the question of who (WT-en) Adisucipta and (WT-en) Anand Ashram are, and if indeed they are the same contributor. We have both left a note on Anand Ashram's talk page, doesn't seem to have had much effect though. I have also recently been editing Anand Ashram content in the Jakarta, Ubud and Bogor articles. -- (WT-en) felix 08:20, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

That edit caught my eye, too. Since I don't know the book, I took no action. Your edits are good. I would observe that it's because of these kinds of sometimes self-serving edits that listing suggested reading material can become a problem. It may become most appropriate to delete the entire section, though I don't yet recommend that "throw-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater" action. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:18, 9 May 2012 (EDT)
Followup: Look at Wrh2's latest editing summary: [8] (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:20, 9 May 2012 (EDT)\
Appropriate action by Wrh2 I think and it has my full support, that contributor/s is rather active in a 'promotional' sense at present, I hope they calm down soon. --cheers-- (WT-en) felix 22:37, 9 May 2012 (EDT)
"Free, but donations are accepted" whoops, thanks for spotting that, I only just noticed your corrective edit. -- (WT-en) felix 23:58, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

Can Tho

Regarding your help with the Can Tho page. We appreciate your help in regards to making us aware about links and the site policies as well as help on other parts. In regards to content, could we use the discussion page though? It would be nice, if you do not delete the content about free student tours. We are working on the site as part of a student project and constantly add content at the moment. It would be great, if you could help with improving the text itself as well. We are all non-native English speakers and would be happy if someone can contribute here as well. For the moment we would like to keep the tours inside. If you have any deeper concerns, could you please discuss with us on the talk page? Thank you -(WT-en) Mario

Hi, Mario. I appreciate the content you're putting up, and I will certainly have a look from time to time and see if any of it needs editing. However, I cannot control what other volunteer editors do, and the precedent has been that listings for tours, regardless of whether they're free or not, are reverted in every article where they are placed, in view of the tour policy. If you would like to argue for more exceptions to the restrictions on listing tours, I would recommend that you post your argument in Project:Activity listings. However, before you do that, I would suggest that you read this particular discussion a bit: [9]
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:00, 10 May 2012 (EDT)
Hello Ikan Keke,
I understand the guideline and I agree: Tours should offer something as a supplement, rather than a replacement for Wikivoyage guides. They should count as an activity available at a destination.
The particularity of the student tours are that they give people the chance to meet locals in their environment and apart from the usual tourist paths - Wikivoyage could not offer that and other tours do not offer this here. Visitors have the chance to meet English speaking locals, something not so easy here normally. As written in the explanation, visitors will also have the chance to get info about current developments, that would not be possible to cover in in Wikivoyage or other guides. Additionally, the tour allows people to access places with the guides, that are not usually available to tourists, e.g. manufacture area of tailors or a meet up with monks. We should probably clarify this in the description.
Thank you for your support and help to understand the working of the site better.
(WT-en) Mario 02:34, 10 May 2012 (EDT)
Again, I think you should be discussing the policy on tours at Project:Activity listings, because the same argument could be made for free tours in any other place, yet current practice is to revert (delete) such listings. If policy is to be changed, the change will have to be site-wide. I do see where you're going, though: If you can show that your particular tour adds so much value that it's unusual, that might engender a different reaction, even without a site-wide change of policy. It might be advisable to discuss that in Talk:Can Tho, though, in order to involve more people and reach a consensus. Sorry to sound so bureaucratic. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:34, 10 May 2012 (EDT)


Thanks for the welcome, Ikan! Hopefully I'll be able to make some valuable contributions around here. I noticed on your talk page you want to visit some cities with amazing mosques. May I recommend Dhaka? Haha, I may be biased, but Wikipedia does give it the title of the "City of Mosques". Enjoy your travels! (WT-en) JamesA >talk 05:09, 14 May 2012 (EDT)

Thanks, James. Yeah, Dhaka could be an interesting place to visit. So many places to go, so little time! :-) (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 06:07, 14 May 2012 (EDT)


I'm admittedly not a grammar person, but your revert in the Mogadishu article seems to be reverting three changes that look correct to me. Since I was the one who marked that edit as patrolled, please let me know if I missed something. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 19:29, 24 May 2012 (EDT)

I think I was experiencing some technical glitches on Wikivoyage earlier. I know there was another article in which I deleted spam links, and the "edit" view showed that they were gone, but even after I cleared my cache, the regular view was showing all the links I had deleted. So I will try to fix the two obvious errors. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 01:49, 25 May 2012 (EDT)
Thanks! As noted, I'm not much with the words, but that edit struck me as being OK so I appreciate the confirmation. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 10:55, 25 May 2012 (EDT)

Page move vandalism

As an FYI since your edit comment indicated you had questions about fixing page moves, if you ever have to remove page move vandalism, go to the Move Log and there is an "undo" button next to each entry. Note that if a page is moved multiple times (A → B → C) then you need to "undo" the move in the reverse order (C → B → A). -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 10:55, 11 June 2012 (EDT)

Thanks, Ryan. All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 23:29, 11 June 2012 (EDT)

Too many Ikan

So that would be an unrequired school of fish someone has called up from the depths :)

Might call for a speargun to cull out the bottom feeders and assorted miscreants.

I have voiced my support for an editing lock down, hope it assists to strengthen your own comments and advice. cheers--(WT-en) felix 22:45, 13 June 2012 (EDT)

Thanks, Felix. Seekor ikan cukuplah. :-) (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 23:02, 13 June 2012 (EDT)
Benar, terlalu banyak ikan nakal, aku harapan semoga sukses mancing -- (WT-en) felix 23:22, 13 June 2012 (EDT)
Terima kasih, Felix. Sedaplah makan ikan... :-) (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 00:07, 14 June 2012 (EDT)

Delete JamesA/Bangladesh

Hey Ivan. Could you please delete JamesA/Bangladesh? I've moved it into my userspace, after accidentally creating it in the mainspace. Thanks. (WT-en) JamesA >talk 10:15, 16 June 2012 (EDT)

Hi, James. My name isn't Ivan. :-) I'll poke around your user page and see if I understand things clearly. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:55, 16 June 2012 (EDT)
Someone already put in a redirect. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:56, 16 June 2012 (EDT)
Apologies for calling you a Malaysian fish (and mispelling it with a "v")! Yes, it was automatically turned into a redirect when I moved it, but wasn't sure if redirects from the mainspace to the userspace were appropriate. If there's no issue, it can be left as-is. Thanks, (WT-en) JamesA >talk 03:14, 17 June 2012 (EDT)
Ikan Kekek is a Malaysian fish, so no issue there. :-) (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 05:59, 17 June 2012 (EDT)

Mythinkhouse- Arusha Wiki Travel Edit questions

First of all thank you for your time. I originally had some posts taken down by you on June 15th I think. It was my first time posting so could see my mistakes based on your feedback which I appreciated.

Today I posted again for my restaurant (Mexican Cafe) in a manner that I thought was very acceptable. But I do not see it? Wondering if you had any feedback.

I also have a night club that I added into the "Drink" section of the page. I believe I can see where you took down this post in my history. It looks like it was replacing another location. The reason I replaced that location was because that club no longer exists in the city.

Please let me know any feed back so I can get it right. I don't want my account to be blocked.

Again the restaurant I felt was perfectly fine but don't see it listed. Feeback?

The Club AQ I see you said not to take down another location, but the one I did no longer exists.

Thank you in advance!


Hi, Patrick. Have read through don't tout? My editing summary for my latest reversion of your edits was as follows:
"Deleted per don't tout, etc. One listing only - no other mention - and never substitute your listing for another's."
Is that unclear? You can post a single listing for a business; you cannot mention it anywhere else. Had that been your first edit, I might have tried fixing it myself, but I want you to read and understand don't tout, and I don't think you've read it yet. Read it, and if you still have questions afterwards, ask.
As for a place that no longer exists, yes, of course you can delete such a listing and should, but make sure to write "closed" - or something similar - in your editing summary that makes it clear why you deleted or overwrote a listing. Unexplained deletions are typically reverted. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 17:45, 27 June 2012 (EDT)

Hallmark Greetings

It's been about three weeks since I've gone to Special:RecentChanges and seen "Ikan Kekek" in the listings. With any luck you've been able to fulfill your plans of returning to Indonesia or are otherwise engaged in fun activities, and hopefully we'll see you again soon around these parts, or at the new site (if/when that happens). -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 23:13, 24 July 2012 (EDT)

Sure. The trip to Indonesia didn't happen this summer, but I'm just back from almost a month total in California and Hawaii, a truly marvelous trip! Thanks for thinking of me, and best wishes to you! Aloha, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:31, 28 July 2012 (EDT)
Welcome home, and good to hear you had a nice trip away--(WT-en) felix 19:23, 29 July 2012 (EDT)

Block ID #10618

Hi Ikan,

One of my IPs was blocked for editing due to "Spambot" reason (no idea why, but I am certainly not a Spambot =)). Could you do the unblocking for me? The Block ID is #10618.

Best regards, --(WT-en) Edsonaoki 03:27, 3 August 2012 (EDT)

Hi. I've just read up on this. Apparently, you and Jnich99 were both using the same IP also used by a spambot, Hdfs9f2qb, whom I blocked. And believe me, you'd consider what it posted to be spam; just have a look: [10]. I just reblocked that user, but unchecked "Automatically block the last IP address used by this user, and any subsequent IP addresses they try to edit from," which seemed to be causing problems for you, Jnich99, and possibly other good-faith users. Sorry for the unpleasant experience.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 05:07, 3 August 2012 (EDT)
Thanks for the explanation. No great harm done. The various recent software upgrades certainly don't seem to have halted the march of the spambots. (WT-en) Jnich99 05:28, 3 August 2012 (EDT)
What upgrades? :-) I'm no techie, but I do know on an empirical basis that the spamming has gotten worse and more difficult to fight. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 05:33, 3 August 2012 (EDT)

Hello Ikan Kekek and welcome to Wikivoyage!

You sly old fox! You seem to be conspiring with sundry disreputable Janitors to achieve multiple "OrgasmsWelcomes" (huge grin):

Wikivoyage is a project with the aim to create a free, up-to-date, and reliable world-wide travel guide, and it is based on an association with the same name: Wikivoyage e.V.

To get a clearer idea about Wikivoyage and how it works, have a look at the community policies and the FAQ section. It may also be useful to read the Copyleft page where you can find more information about our license. The part of Wikivoyage called Wikivoyage General helps Wikivoyagers to organize and discuss language independent topics. If you want to find more information related to potential language versions, have a look at the language version discussions page. "How to start a new language version" will help you plunge forward.

If you understand their languages, it might be interesting to have a look at the German or the Italian language versions of Wikivoyage, as those are the long established language versions and there you will have an opportunity to discover what the project and its articles look like. The launch of the English Language version is imminent. The images that are used within our articles are at Wikivoyage Shared.

Our policies, guidelines and Manual of style may be a bit different to other Wiki's you've worked on.

If you need more information or you have questions that have not been answered in the help pages, please do not hesitate to write a post in the Travellers' Pub or to ask me directly.

--W. Franke-mailtalk 02:35, 24 September 2012 (CEST)

cross confirmation

Hi Ikan, hope you are doing fine. You have not been around for some time, so this might be interesting Also we try to get the new policies here implemented, so any helpful hand is appreciated. Have a great weekend, Jc8136 (talk) 12:46, 5 October 2012 (CEST)

Hi, Jc. I'm not a techie, so I couldn't help with the implementation of this kind of policy. Are there any other new discussions I should be aware of? Thanks, and I hope you also have a great weekend. (WV-en) Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:53, 5 October 2012 (CEST)
Ikan, there is an misunderstanding. The policy is already implemented and made. If you would like to merge your accounts from WT and WV here, then you solely need to add your account name on the bottom of the list [11]. It's great because it imports your old WT history if you want, too. Regards, Jc8136 (talk) 13:06, 5 October 2012 (CEST)
I accidentally deleted my WT history before I left WT, so that wouldn't help. Oh well. :-) (WV-en) Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:07, 5 October 2012 (CEST)
I saw that my undeleted WT history was imported here, so I did apply to merge my accounts. Thanks again, Jc. (WV-en) Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:26, 14 October 2012 (CEST)

them external links

Thanks for the welcome back, Ikan! And thanks for pointing out the external links page - with all the listings now doing frontlinking, I thought that was going to be the new standard here. Then I found this. Well, back to fixing my stuff up! PerryPlanet (talk) 18:21, 12 October 2012 (CEST)

Account merge

Hi Ikan - I've merged your (new) Wikivoyage account with your old account, so this account should include all content contributions you've ever made. I've also moved your user page and talk page. You were somewhat of a test case, so please report any problems. Provided everything worked as expected then the same process will probably be used with other user accounts. -- Ryan • (talk) • 20:52, 13 November 2012 (UTC)


at my page --Cyrfaw (Talk) 07:40, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you :)

Thank you for your warm welcome Ikan Kekek :) I see Wikivoyage has recently been added to the Wikimedia Foundation and now is itself a Wikimedia project. I am very happy to be a part of such place. I originally started on Wikipedia and have continued to spread out on other wiki's like Wikisource, Wikibooks, etc. and now Wikivoyage! This looks like a very interesting project related to travel and tourism which has one of the most reliable world-wide travel guides that can be found on the web. I look forward to be a dedicated long term member and a positive contributor to Wikivoyage. Best Regards! TheGeneralUser (talk) 20:01, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Wonderful. I look forward to working with you and reading your contributions in the future. All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:05, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Plain words

May I compliment you on your much clearer wording?

I think many Asian cultures employ these indirect circumlocutions because they think it is more likely to preserve harmony.

(Every time I look at Abbrev. it grates that we firstly recommend something like "These abbreviations should be uniform and consistent and generally should not include full stops or periods" in the lead or nutshell and then go on to say "Some country abbreviations include periods while others do not: "United States of America" should be abbreviated as U.S. with periods, not U.S.A., USA, or US" when the latter abbreviation is used by some (but certainly not all) US departments and agencies...).

Happy New Year! -- Alice 19:44, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the positive feedback. We argue about more or less small or moderately important points in the "Talk" pages here, but it pays for us to remember that we're all really trying to do the same thing, which is to make this site better for readers. Have a great 2013, and enjoy the warm weather you have at this time - and every other time of year - in Singapore. It's cold here in New York! :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:23, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Sometimes it is very difficult not being able to see faces and hear tones of voice. I need to try very hard to be tolerant of Peter's boorishness - I'm sure I'd probably find him very attractive if I met him face to face - but it really is very tough trying to ignore the continual sniping about me being a puppet of a German friend of mine that lives in Glasgow. Especially when both Frank and I have already established our bona fides to Fred Bauder and Jimmy Wales on Wikipedia all those years ago and I personally have offered to appear in person with my passports and driving licences to a named admin that promises to keep my personal details confidential - plus anyone with Check user rights can see that I don't usually edit from the continent of Europe. By the way, my work takes me all over the Pacific Rim (but often to and from Oz and NZ) and I'm down under right now and won't be back to spend much time in Singapore until March. -- Alice 00:30, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Happy New Year from Cyfraw

Hi there and happy new year! Thanks for your efforts at WikiVoyage. Regards --cyrfaw (talk) 09:25, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Cyfraw. Same to you! All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:48, 31 December 2012 (UTC)


You're welcome! Tony (talk) 06:02, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


Hi, are you still here? I clarified my Main Page edit request at Talk:Main_Page#Mobile_version. :-) Rogerhc (talk) 05:52, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, but I'm having trouble seeing things clearly in that dense thicket of HTML on the main page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:53, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Okay, answered here. Rogerhc (talk) 06:01, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for helping. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:03, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, no comma

[12] Travelpleb (talk) 09:59, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Things sure have changed since I was in school. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:01, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Aggressive flirting

Ok, now that you explained, it's clearer to me. On the other side, we should have to be aware that the vast majority of en.wikivoyage readers are not English natives; and, by any means, "aggressive" in such a transcultural context is semantically conveying the idea of snatching a woman's arm in the street. Which is naturally false, especially when you consider the incidence of rapes compared to apparently calmer cities like Florence (which, between you and me, has the highest rapes' incidence in Italy, followed by Milan...)...Neapolitans consider getting along with a woman like a proof of their courting capabilities, so being "aggressive" in such a trans-cultural meaning would be cause of shame for them. So, having understood your meaning, I would rather use "persistent" or "insisted". Ah, probably you understood I AM a Neapolitan and live in town, so I can speak about courting with some insider view... :-) --Ferdinando Scala (talk) 10:53, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Your point is well taken. Can we agree on "somewhat persistent flirting"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:01, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Sorry if I didn't answer earlier, I was working and then flying back home. Your new version is ok, thank you for your kind understanding. Btw, I often travel to Turkey for business, and first time I read your nickname I thought you were a Turkish...thenafter I read the history of your life, quite fascinating. I'm also a global traveller, so it will be great to share views with you in the future. And, in case you come to Naples, I will be happy to show you some special places. :-) --Ferdinando Scala (talk) 21:46, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
I'll let you know. I loved visiting Naples. :-) Distintamente, Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:51, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Johor Bahru

Hi! I have seen that you worked a bit on the Malaysia article. We tried to get Johor into a better shape for OtBP but it contains to much info. Felix and i tried to work it but another helping hand would be great, if you have some spare time. Regards, jan (talk) 08:25, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Jan. I've never been to Johor Bahru, but I'll have a look when I have a chance. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:26, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Not a Bot.

I am receiving multiple email about some minor edits I made asking me to post a reply to confirm that I am not a this the correct place to do so?

You already made that clear. I was asking you to respond in your user talk page. Did you read the messages I left for you there, and do you understand them? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:00, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Vikram chuahan

Hi there, I change the deletion template from {{vfd}} to {{speedy}} because it is lacking information and it looks like a non-sense article. If you don't belive me you can undo my edit. Thanks! --cyrfaw (talk) 11:10, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

not done - Never mind - The page is already deleted since it has lack of information. Thanks! --cyrfaw (talk) 05:09, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I noticed. And that's certainly fine with me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:12, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Good, thanks! --cyrfaw (talk) 05:15, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Hudson valley

You're welcome! Daniel Case (talk) 05:18, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

I restored Il Cena'colo to the restaurant section minus the Zagat ref (didn't know about that rule, thanks). It's not the only one of those restaurants west of the river. Daniel Case (talk) 02:28, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Why does it belong in Hudson Valley, rather than Newburgh? The standard practice is to list restaurants in city guides, whenever possible, and to list them in regional guides only when there is no other place to list them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:59, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Oh, OK. The article had a very broad "Eat" section; since it just said "Since CIA is in the region there are a lot of good restaurants", I decided to list some because you can't just pick any one at random, even if the chef did go there, and assume it'll be great. I suppose that section, in regional pages, is just for particular regional food treats? (yes it is, I see now). I suppose in this case snickerdoodles would be about the only thing I can think of. Daniel Case (talk) 18:15, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
It's fine to mention that the CIA is in the region, and it could be OK to mention a few other places by name, but readers should be directed to guides like Newburgh for full listings of restaurants that are in particular towns. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:14, 18 May 2013 (UTC)


I blanked it because

Don't tout. Wikivoyage is a site for travelers, not for marketing, and promotional listings will be removed. This guideline identifies ways for businesses to contribute constructively. In particular, please do not ever add more than one listing for a business. —The preceding comment was added by User:Manoli (talkcontribs)

I just did a lot of detouting. Look now. Deleting the entire sleep section is overly extreme, in my view. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:49, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi Ikan If everybody will leave advertisings for some villas or apartments, the sleep section will be filled with advertising spam. The whole sleep section is a copy and paste product. The same you will find here:

and under other URL's

For my opinion seems like you want to protect somebodys intrests in zakynthian tourism.

Please lets stop spamming. Have a look for Exemple to wikivoyage "Mallorca" - there is no adveretising spam in the sleep section. If they start there the same it will filled up with thousands of entrys. —The preceding comment was added by User:Manoli (talkcontribs)

Thanks. The link to the Zakynthos Sleep site does persuade me that you have a good argument for deleting all the "Sleep" entries in the Zakynthos article, but the mere fact that entries are listed in multiple places is no proof that they are not worthy of being listed (although, obviously, copyright violation is an issue). So in order to reach a consensus, which consists of more than two people having a discussion, I will copy and paste this discussion to Talk:Zakynthos. But please disabuse yourself of the weird notion that I support spamming. I have never been to Zakynthos; know no-one who owns any property, operates any business, or has any interest whatsoever in any business in Zakynthos; do not own or have any financial interest in any real property whatsoever; and am a volunteer admin on Wikivoyage. Meanwhile, I have no idea who you are. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:04, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Rock, Cornwall

Hi Ikan, could you please explain why you have single handedly decided to take the rash decision to delete a new page that I was in the process of setting up on Rock, Cornwall? I had set up the page and entered some introductory text and had gone away to get some additional information to start filling in other sections only to return to find that some idiot had deleted the page. I can't see that the page infringed any of the policies or guidelines and you have clearly not properly followed any deletion procedure. You give a reason for deletion that there was little useful content on the page and there had only been one contributor. Hardly surprising when I had only just created the page a few minutes before? Perhaps a more productive use of your time might be to actually contribute something positive to Wikivoyage rather than preventing others from doing so. Tallguyuk (talk) 13:50, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

My apologies. If someone else has not restored the page, I will do so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:51, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
It looks like someone else restored it in the interim. Apologies again; I goofed on this. Thanks for contributing, and I will try not to make this kind of mistake again. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:05, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
No problem, I can see how it happens. Tallguyuk (talk) 20:17, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for understanding. All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:22, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

IP blocking

For the record, 3 months is a little high for IP blocks since some users have dynamic IPs. If it's a static IP (the vandal keeps using the same IP and keeps getting the same blocks) it's probably okay though. It depends on how the ISP is set up. No worries though, it's always difficult dealing with anonymous editors :) --Rschen7754 20:21, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't know how to recognize a static IP from a dynamic IP. Would you recommend a 1-month block in cases of spambots or severe vandalism? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:22, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
If they come back under a slightly different IP, it's definitely dynamic. In extreme cases, you can do a rangeblock (a block of a range of IPs), but if the range is large, you may need to consult a steward (since you have no local CUs) to make sure that you're not blocking innocent users as collateral damage.
However, if the same IP returns after you blocked it, it's definitely static. A 1 month block for a spambot seems fine, unless you can tell that it's an w:en:Open proxy, in which case you can block for a year or two. (If you look at the IP's contributions page on the English Wikipedia, there's some additional tools, and may have some additional info. Unfortunately, I don't know too much more about finding those beyond that). IP blocking is definitely a complicated art :) --Rschen7754 20:30, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Protecting politically charged pages

Hey, I wanted to respond to your comments on India and Pakistan. I don't think the problem as of now is very serious—I've seen edits every 2-3 minutes over the course of hours before that did justify protects, but I don't think it's too bad right now. (And I think I've watchlisted all pages related to all the world's territorial disputes by now.) If you're feeling burnt out at all dealing with the nationalist edit warriors, I'd recommend just working on something more enjoyable for a spell. For me that's usually mapmaking or more recently writing about Fitzgerald. The India and Pakistan articles are pretty well watched by a number of people. Your prolific patrolling work is amazingly helpful, though, so I hope I'm not discouraging you from it! --Peter Talk 09:01, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the good thoughts and helpful perspective, Peter. All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:36, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

India/Pakistan, moved from my user page

Dear, I know that this is travel site then also you have to show unclaimed map hatched understand. and if not then see you will find kashmir region hatched. (Unsigned, posted by User:Jay8580)

The solution is that the cross-hatching should be deleted from the Pakistan map. I'm not sure how to do that, but you are right to point out an inconsistency. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:23, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Dear finally you understand what i wanted to say.

Please sign your posts by typing 4 tildes (the "~" key) before you press enter on talk pages. But anyway, I'm sure we will fix the Pakistan map when someone checks Talk:Pakistan who knows how to do that. Please be patient. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:41, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

~Thanks Because i read this matter in state level newspaper.

This was covered in a newspaper in your state? That's surprising, and could help to explain the vehement reaction. And the moral of the story is, never ascribe to bias what is much more likely to be due to oversight. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:51, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

~Yes. It is gujarat samachar news paper leading news paper in gujarat state. go to this link Jay8580(talk)

Well, I can't read Gujarati. Anyway, thanks for clearing that up. I certainly was not aware of the inconsistency in the maps until now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:02, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

~ you can use google translate

True. Do you suppose they'll do a follow-up article when we correct the problem? Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:12, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Your comment

I responded to the comment you left on Talk:Buffalo and I wanted to make sure you were made aware of it so that you could give your opinion.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:34, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Your advice

Re: - I have seen this addition and it looks like a straight copy and paste from wp en - I would suspect such an addition is not really a valid way to provide information for a wikivoyage phrasebook here on wikivoyage in comparison to say - I'd be interested to know how you would approach the problem... (on wp en the tendency for sundanese cultural info has a real problem with WP:UNDUE as if it is the centre of the known universe - something like some regions of malaysia as well...) thanks for any adevice or comments on the issue. sats (talk) 09:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi, sats. Yes, at a glance, it is clearly a cut-and-paste job, and therefore, needs to be blanked except for perhaps the barest of an introduction. I'll take care of it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:37, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
A further remark: As a matter of policy, wholesale copy-paste jobs from Wikipedia are not allowed on this site, especially when they aren't even credited and include extraneous encyclopedic content. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:44, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


Thanks for this. I understand the reasoning; but there's a problem. As it happens, many more visitors come to Levoca for the day than stay overnight. If these restaurants are listed only under hotels we actually end with 'under-touting' - not making people aware that these resturants exist and effectively giving preference to the restaurants which don't have sleeping accommodation attached. This also seems unfair. In the meantime anyway I will reedit the articel to place the restaurant listings in the sleepsection, with perhpas a note after 'Eat' on the lines 'many hotels also have good restaurants open for day visitors,(see below)'. Best, --Smerus (talk) 21:19, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

That sounds like a good solution. Another possible solution is, if the restaurants are more notable or much more patronized than the hotels, perhaps it might be best to list them in "Eat," rather than "Sleep," with a note in their "Eat" listing that you can also stay at the hotel and a description of the hotel included. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:29, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


just in case you didnt notice it - (User creation log); 17:41 . . User account AliCeja80 (talk | contribs) was created by AnnabelleDeitz85 (talk | contribs) ‎- cheers sats (talk) 10:15, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I didn't notice. Thanks, sats. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:26, 29 January 2013 (UTC)


Thanks for the welcome. I hope I don't screw things up...much. ;) ReveurGAM (talk) 10:36, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Don't worry about that. We all screw up, and when we do, others are there to edit the screw-ups. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:15, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

"Lombok chillies"

I noticed your deletion of this photo item in Indonesia's food section, which I had considered doing last night (well, actually, after midnight) while editing the section, and I have a question about this food item. I have not heard of cabe lombok and, to my knowledge (and my Javanese wife's), lombok is just another word for chili pepper. Can you set me straight on this? Perhaps, if you can tell me what the Indonesian name is, I might have a photo I could upload. Thanks!ReveurGAM (talk) 05:22, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi. I really don't know because I really speak Bahasa Melayu, not Bahasa Indonesia. Lombok is only an island to me. Cabe evidently is the Indonesian equivalent of cabai, one Malay word for chili (lada and cili are more common), and coincidentally, that's how the word would be pronounced in Kelantan, the state just to the north of Terengganu, where I used to live (Bahasa Terengganu would pronounce the word "cabaaa"). Anyway, a Google image search for "cabe lombok" turns up a few photos of chilis, but I'm not sure what that proves. [13] Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:36, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
So, I guess we're both confused then. :) FYI, "cabai" is infrequently used here as an alt. spelling. "Lombok" is only uncommonly used to refer to chilis, being subject to confusion amongst the uninitiated because of the island. "Lada" and "merica" are used to refer to black/white pepper, not chilis, here. The only thing I know about Malaysian is that it's different enough that when I watch Upin Ipin or Boboi Boy, I get confused without subtitles. :)
I did a quick Google image search of "cabe lombok" and the hits on the first page (ignoring the island hits) showed the two words to be synonymous (e.g.: "cabe a.k.a. lombok"), not the name of a species of chili. The chili shown on that page appears to be the common but pricy mild "cabe merah besar", except for an image of "paprika" (bell pepper). That chili (CMB) and "cabe keriting" would be worthy additions given how frequently they are used (less so than rawit because of the higher price and inferior spiciness). Any thoughts?ReveurGAM (talk) 05:52, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Oh, by all means insert any photos you feel would help prospective or current visitors understand Indonesian cuisine!
By the way, in Malay, lada hitam does mean "black pepper," but "lada hidup" means fresh hot pepper and "lada kering" means dried hot pepper. When I visited Indonesia a couple of times in 1976 (yeah, that's how long it's been!), I think I understood about 75% of what people said to me, and they understood something more like 90% of my Malay. Using words like "bilik" instead of "kamar," they told us, was "Bahasa Dusun" - dusun being a word that in Malay was a bit fancy and synonymous with kampung. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:24, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I just noticed this discussion and thought I might add a couple of comments, and a digressive factiod for good measure. I my own experience I would normally expect to see a chili described as 'cabe' (alt) cabai, (alt) cabai merah, (alt) lombok (bahasa Jawa). That is certainly what I am familiar with conversationally. It must also be understood that the range and variety in chili plants and their 'fruits' is quite considerable.
Cabe is a general descriptive word, to which additional descriptors may be appended, hot, green, red, small, dry, fresh, sweet, long, big, small, and additionally many have common and specific names, many of which vary between regions.
Now for the slightly distracting, but still contextual factoid. The name of the island of Lombok is often misattributed to the chili (Id:cabe alt. lombok). Tourism promotions often use an image of a chili when marketing the island as a destination. Travel writers, often with some air of authority (and presumably just copying each others work), refer to the name of the island of Lombok in eastern Indonesia (NTB) as being "derived" or "meaning" Chili, from the Indonesian word (lombok), as is sometimes used to describe a chili.
It is true that the Sasak people of Lombok are quite liberal in the use of the chili in their diet, indeed some may appraise they are excessive in their embracing of the chili in various condiments, sambal, salads and in cooked food.
However, the name of the island is actually derived from the Sasak word lomboq, which is equivalent to lerus or (En) straight, straight ahead (alt:in a direct course). The Sasak (orang Lombok) describe a chili (cabe or lombok) thus; sebie, (alt) sebiya, (alt) sebiye, (alt) sebiye. The first may be the more popular spelling. It must be understood that Bahasa Sasak has strong 'oral' traditions, the language in written form gets a bit vague at times, and there is considerable regional dialectic variation, both in word use, and in pronunciation.-- Felix (talk) 18:03, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Looking over some of the recent edits on the Indonesia article I feel a bit concerned regarding some of the new content and edits, so I am going to wander over to the articles Talk page and leave a few comments. -- Felix (talk) 18:03, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the interesting discourse on chilis and language, and for whatever edits you will do in the Indonesia article. You always do great edits! Also, if you're an admin now, congrats, and if you aren't yet, you will be shortly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:02, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Holy chilis, Batman! Actually, dusun is used here, too, but not nearly as commonly as kampung and desa. I've not come across bilik but it seems oddly familiar. Or perhaps I'm just thinking of "bilk". ;) hehe
Felix, how many languages do you know? I don't even remember how to say "thank you" in Sasakian. :( You suggested above that cabe merah is the same as cabe, however that prompts the question: "What then is the meaning of merah if not "red", because chilis come in red, orang, yellow, green, purple and black?" -- —The preceding comment was added by username (talkcontribs)
It most certainly only applies when they are red, but they don't need to be hot and red, it only pertains to the colour alone as far as I am aware. Generally I am more concerned about the fluctuating price of the things :) -- Felix (talk) 18:34, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

wikivoyage user page

it would seem that user pages - if a user chooses to offer an email address for off wikivoyage conversation - that long term users have simply provided their email address as part of the text on the page. I understand that some would never want such a connection, while others would want to do so - my stance is that if someone really wants to contact - they go to my wp en page and send an email via the link there under 'user' - I wouldnt want to bother the current range of considerations in wikivoyage with such a facility in the drop-down, I think there are far more important things to be considered policy wise... sats (talk) 09:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I just about never provided my email address except accidentally, and then I discover that because a user emails me about something that should be discussed on user talk or the talk page for an article. I did send you an email through one of those forms on Commons, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:40, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
odd, as I do not seem to have received anything - the wp en drop down seems to be the best way to go sats (talk) 10:02, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

spammer for some reason i cannot find how to revert 2 edits rather than the one. unsigned 10:12, 31 January 2013 SatuSuro oops sats (talk) 14:47, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Click history, select the last good version, click 'edit', click 'save'. K7L (talk) 10:51, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Or what I usually do: You go into the history and then compare the current version to the last clean version and click "undo." Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:53, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
thank you both - I was in a hurry to get off the computer to get to an appointment but didnt want to leave it unattended - thanks sats (talk) 14:47, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Real and non-promotional?

OK I'm not new to wikis but new here and a bit confused about Wikivoyage policy so perhaps you could help me out. Just so me and you are on the same page, you just deleted a link I added to Bridlington. I have no link to the fish and chip shop in question and no desire to promote it. What I've read says this wiki likes in article links to pages(rather than citations) and also likes direct info rather than third party sources. So when I come across a national award winning chippy in Brid I think it'd be good to have it in the article. I can guess a few things I might have done wrong - but the trouble is they're just guesses. So can you explain to me more fully what you have problems with so I can try to not do it again, if indeed I have broken WV policy? And perhaps in future you could maybe leave me a message on my talk page if you have a problem with my editing as a message in a edit history box probably comes across harsher than you meant it... and in any case leaves me little wiser as to what actually needs changing. --Dakinijones (talk) 04:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi. I welcome you here and appreciate the editing you're doing, and I'm sorry the edit summary sounded harsh. A real entry looks like this, as shown in Wikivoyage:Restaurant listings:
*'''Name of Restaurant''', Address (''extra directions if necessary''), phone number (''email, fax, other contact if possible''), []. Days and times open. One to three sentences about the food, service, atmosphere, view, specialties, music, what have you. $lowprice-highprice (''extra price info'').
There needs to be a physical address in the guide, so the reader knows where the fish and chips place is. And it's great if the fish and chips place won an award, but the name of the organization or survey that gave the award needs to be mentioned in the description within the entry. Just a link plus a "best in UK" seems promotional, but in context, the link and a mention of the award would be fine. For the other edit I made, please have a look at the external links policy. One of the goals of Wikivoyage is to serve travelers on the go who don't have access to the internet, for whatever reason. So necessary information - name of pub, address, how to get there if it isn't obvious, phone number, hours if you know them, some kind of description - needs to be in the guide on Wikivoyage, not in a link somewhere else. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:58, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for explaining... That's really made it a lot clearer and will definitely help my editing in the future. --Dakinijones (talk) 05:05, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Great! Thanks again for your edits, and please carry on! Cheers, Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:09, 1 February 2013 (UTC)


Hi Ikan, that is a notable improvement here. That was one of the several issues that bothered me on a first read. I think it could be developed a bit further though. In my own experience there are no "pockets of animism". There are certainly areas where animism is more overt, the adherents of Waktu Telu in North Lombok, even more so the (not quite diminished) Boda of North Lombok are stand outs. There is also a distinct group of people midway between Jakarta and Anyar in West Jawa. However my point here is that though they, and other similar groups may be overtly symbolic of Animist practice it has a far more common theme in Indonesia. I cannot recall ever meeting an Indonesian that is not bearing at least latent Animism. Scratch the skin of any Indonesian and a Animist is revealed. I have formed the distinct impression that it is not only part of the 'human condition' for Indonesians, it is possibly somehow imbedded in their DNA. When considered with some pause this is not surprising. Animism is part of the human condition, indeed some may go as far as to proclaim that it is the human condition. The progressions of first Hinduism, then other beliefs such as Buddhism, Christianity and Islam have really only served to repress Animism in Indonesia, it is alive and well behind every tree, hiding under every bed, in all the shadows and borne upon every gust of wind and in every rustle of a palm frond. If any thing goes wrong it is quickly revealed who in the room is an animist, I would be surprised to see one in their number who will express it either overtly or by deference. I don't think we are portraying that in the article yet. Maybe we don't need to. However I though I might share that with you as I am aware of your own roots in the region. -- cheers Felix (talk) 13:48, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I do relate to this. But thinking about my greater experience in Malaysia, while I think a lot of the orthodox Muslims actually would fear hantu, they don't make animism part of their religious or customary (adat) practice. So maybe it would be more accurate to say that there are some Indonesians who adhere only to traditional Indonesian animistic religions (pockets of them, if we want to maintain that phrasing), whereas most other Indonesians are in a formal sense adherents of Islam, Hinduism, Christianity, or Buddhism, though most of the inhabitants of the country - of whatever formal religious identity - also maintain animist beliefs. In any case, don't hesitate to make any edits you believe would improve the accuracy or tone of the section on folk religion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:05, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
I, too, like your improvement that Felix linked to above, and I agree that it should be developed further. I've already made my opinion clear (I hope) about what you wrote about religion in the talk page. I'm not sure how I feel about "pockets" because I've met people who deny being animists (despite utilizing animistic beliefs, sometimes), others who admit believing in it while it isn't their religion (with the same caveat), and I've met some who claim they are animists. Most interestingly, the syncretization (sic?) of Christianity and Kejawan is not denied quite as often as it is with Muslims.
I will, however, have to completely disagree that it is "in their DNA." I won't expound on it, but I find it oddly offensive.
The overlay of newer religions on older ones can be observed all over the world, or so I've heard. Look at Christianity's holidays: most of them are placed over pagan holidays (eg: Easter, Halloween, Christmas), even to the point that Christmas is on the wrong date. I doubt this has anything to do with DNA but rather indicative of how difficult it is to rid oneself completely of one's value system, even when it has been discarded in favor of another.
I appreciate your experience in Malaysia, IK, but what is true there isn't true here. Animism is, indeed, alive and well - even if it's not admitted to. When my in-laws insisted on hanging my daughter's "twin" from the rafters, they admitted it wasn't an Islamic tradition and, when pressed, admitted it was animistic. My son's "twin" was buried. My in-laws, by the way, are tolerant but fairly religious (but dad's dead :( ) Still not sure about "pockets", but I like the way you worded everything else above. FYI, you forgot Confucianism, the 6th religion. ReveurGAM (talk) 17:47, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

2012 and 2013

These articles were copied directly from Wikipedia, if you were wondering. I might go ahead and nom nom nom them for deletion, unless if you think they can be speedied. JamesA >talk 06:32, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

I already deleted 2012, having checked Wikipedia myself. I will delete 2013. No reason to have a Vfd discussion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:33, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

real life and indonesian folklore

have had a few days attending to real life, and will try to read all the comings and goings with the Indonesian article - once I have read all the talk material, and changes in articles, will decide whether I am interested in getting involved. Having both my wife and I do Pd level anthropology field work in Java, I find quite a lot that I have read so far quite to be debatable, but whether, in the end it is worth taking on the opinions or even commenting here on wikivoyage is debatable. I might in the end just remain silent, and edit the atrociously under-written Tasmanian articles the talk pages are already far too full, and honestly 'Indonesian superstitions' aka folklore, was in my head for over 15 years, to have to deal with others experiences or ideas might not necessarily be of any benefit to a wikivoyage article or two in the end... it might just muddy the waters... sats (talk) 15:05, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, sats. I'd be grateful if you'd edit anything that's either inaccurate, misleading, or has a problematic tone. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:02, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
sheesh - the Indonesian stuff feels like too much to handle at the moment, I think Ill go back under my rock and have a slightly longer sleep. One thing to tag the newcomers, another to enter into conversation about the nuances of life in the tropics ... sats (talk) 01:07, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Selamat tidur. All in good time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:58, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
and when I do dip in the recent edits and see like : -(diff | hist) . . Talk:London/City of London‎; 01:09 . . (+243)‎ . . ‎Visit the City (talk | contribs)‎ (→‎Hello - here to help: ) - and remember seeing you do blocks on spammers - I suppose I need to get into a conversation about doing the patrol, seeing the really obvious usernames and the subject, and without even looking at what they have (or not) written, I am interested to see your comment about how much leeway such edits are or not allowed in the area of spam and setting themselves up as 'the centre of the universe' as at - havent welcomed, as even if I was to read touting into the edits, interested in having any suggestions as to where the lines of demarcation are seeing you regularly knock em off... sats (talk) 09:01, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
This is by no means the worst touting I've seen, but current policy is shown here SEO#Marketers_and_SEOs:
"Because there is an inherent conflict of interest when someone is being paid for their edits, if you are working for a hotel chain, a marketing agency, or a similar organization then you may not add multiple listings for that business to Wikivoyage articles. Wikivoyage is not a yellow pages, so adding every individual location for a hotel brand or restaurant chain is not an appropriate use of this site. If a hotel is truly exceptional, or if a city has a very limited number of lodging options available, you may propose a listing to be added on the article's talk page, but do not add the listing yourself. Marketers that add multiple business listings should expect to see their contributions reverted, and in the worst case repeated violations of this policy may lead to blocking of the contributor's account and possibly blacklisting of the business in question.
Marketers and paid editors may make factual corrections to existing hotel listings, but these changes should be strictly limited to non-subjective information such as URLs or phone numbers. As explained above, do not remove negative information from a listing without first discussing the change; if a listing states that a hotel has a dated interior but the property has undergone recent renovation, point out this fact on the article's talk page and let someone else update the listing."
I think some other admins would immediately revert the entire edit and tell the commercial user to stop touting. However, no listings were actually added. So what I would do is detout the listings to make them purely informational and merge them into one listing (presumably in "Sleep") that covers both the hotel and the restaurant, and send the commercial user a message pointing them to don't tout and welcome, business owners. Would you like to take care of this? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:39, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
almost in a car pile up about an hour ago, the foxtel signal has gone down, and I have a meeting to go to, I'll pass... sats (talk) 10:44, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Yikes! Glad you're OK. Be careful out there! Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:08, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

That sounds quite unsettling sats, maybe you shouldn't have been watching foxtel in the car anyway. I do hope you are OK and that the TV is not broken. I had a look at that article and made a few adjustments. Have a look over it and take care of anything else you notice. -- Felix (talk) 20:39, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

As an admin

Wondering if you can take care of these [14]? Travel Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:47, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't know how to do this and I'm not sure how much longer I'll be awake, so I'll just leave the task for someone else. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:49, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
That would've also been the reason why the main page wasn't displaying properly for you :-) JamesA >talk 12:50, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Moszna Castle

Hello. I am relatively new to WIKIVOYAGE and am not positive if I can reply to your emails. I have been attempting to make/create the Moszna Castle page. I do not mind that the page has been re-directed, however, I made an error on the original entry and now the page is in the wrong place. My original error involves the "Lublin Voivodeship". This castle is not located in the Lublin Voivodeship. It is located in the Opole Voivodeship. Can you please redirect it to an "Opole" or "Silesia" page? Once again, I do not know how to reply to your messages. If you could be so kind as inform me that the changes have taken place I would appreciate it. I want to make sure it is in the correct spot. Thanks, Norris4949.

Hi. I will take care of this. I hope it isn't confusing to you that I moved your post to the bottom of my user talk page for ease in reading. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:55, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Talk Back Targetkristy

Hey Ikan Kekek, i replied to you on my Talk page - (talk!

White space

Is it a hangover from wiki travel or some other part of the archaeology of this venture - but a large number of outline articles seem to have headings and parts of things with vast amount of white space (ie spaces between text and headings), I was sure when I just a starter at old wp en that I was chastised for leaving any white space around... I was told in no uncertain terms that such a practice was a waste of space as the headings didnt need space above or below and they were formatted to make the right adjustments. It seems that the vast spaces here on wv are testament to something that is not explained anywhere... sats (talk) 10:18, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi, sats. I really don't know if there's any policy on this. We should have a discussion about it and come to an agreement. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:14, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
hmmm - I know some of the discussions here are so extraodrinarily specific on some issues, I am not sure this is going to be an issue with time well spent, oh well here goes... sats (talk) 23:30, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

OK I am wrong - once again - Wikivoyage:Section headers has established that the spaces are required (the reasoning to me is bollocks, but hey), however the talk page suggests that inadequate discussion has occurred on the subject... so I have taken the subject to the pub. sats (talk) 00:19, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Good. I'll have a look. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:57, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
It was discussed - but hey like some things here - one support, one oppose - so it went nowhere... also a reply to my query making fun of worrying about a byte seems to be what i expected. Less then 50,000 articles it might seem ok - when the project gets to over 100,000 maybe they might think again about wasted space sats (talk) 08:54, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
That's a good point. I hope you make it in the thread. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:03, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
There's the rub - the amount of dead threads around the place make one wonder... Even something as simple as my admin nom sits in limbo like a sore thumb (either direction... wait or archive or what) some parts of this project they leave the lights on and the door open... :| sats (talk) 09:08, 15 February 2013 (UTC)


Hello Ikan Kekek. You have a new message at Curtaintoad's talk page. Thanks, Curtaintoad (curtain or toad) 09:24, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

History sections

The Indonesian one bothers me a lot - but real life returned my youngest from overseas with suspect DVT early this am (long waits in emergency departments etc etc), along with everything else, my capacity to be coherent in my critiquing having long history sections will have to wait. Thank you for suggesting about taking it higher. sats (talk) 02:35, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Sorry to hear about your son's travails. My best wishes to both of you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:58, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Nah he's sleeping it all off at the moment - its all good - as they say. I am more concerned that the history discussion that you and reveur are having is a good productive reduction - and I dont want to thwart that process - it is clear you both sound off against each other on the issues - and it looks good with the improvements.

As I say elsewhere, I am simply against putting extensive history into wikivoyage - it smells of (ie has a nafas of) something that somehow doesnt feel right to me - it is one thing to have issues with renditions of what Suharto did or didnt do - and the effects that have carried down to affect the world that traveller is moving in - but the nafas is of moving into non-goal, I know that if I was to an 'understand' section for my research site/(which is a tourist destination, must write it up some day), then I would really get carried away with aspects of history, anthropology, semiotics, and a little bit of the 'londho's' reflection of what a ziarah site might be like in the bantul regency.... I certainly would 'not want to provide anything' about the complex enclave issues that existed between Yk and Sk (assume you know the abbreviations) and how it affected villages and wider community issues in the eastern bantul area for over 50 years before sukarno era... the detail is probably the devil in all this... If there is anything that has got to me almost 20 years after my fieldwork, is that its what you leave out is as important as what you put in. Like my wifes fieldwork that echoes your mothers... there are details in the world of birth in this whole archipelago that might fit into some books, but others it doesnt go in it all. Hope that explains where I am coming from just in case you wondered. :) sats (talk) 09:41, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

I sort of get it but it's late and I've had a few shots of whiskey, so I'm not sure. :-) I don't actually recognize the abbreviations Yk and Sk. I get your point about non-goals, but a bit of knowledge may be good (though I do get the point about a little knowledge being dangerous). Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:46, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
sheesh it is sooooo hot here (40 degrees C) - a drop of anything alcoholic would be close to fatal for me - Imogiri - Yogyakarta (Yk) and Surakarta (Sk) enclaves - the subject is like a borgesian labyrinth of madening intricacy that even local yogyakarta based academic historians were averse to try to unfold/unpack and explain... sats (talk) 09:54, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
It's cold here. Yes, I do know some about the rivalry between the two great cities of Central Javanese culture. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:55, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
This was something much more complex than that - I must do something somewhere to explain the issue, it was bizarre and really obscure... somewhere, some day... sats (talk) 10:07, 21 February 2013 (UTC)


Hello Ikan Kekek. You have a new message at Curtaintoad's talk page. Thanks, Curtaintoad (curtain or toad) 09:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Please be my friend ! ('~') And please reply to this message if you have the time! Curtaintoad (curtain or toad) 11:37, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Not sure what you mean by being your friend. We're just pixels on a website, hopefully going after the same goal of improving the site. Take it easy. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:53, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Okay. Curtaintoad (curtain or toad) 23:23, 22 February 2013 (UTC)


Having polluted your talk page with all the self revealing material about the unfinished post graduate project (any archiving of any of the material would be appreciated...) - could you be so kind as to delete the page entitled SatuSuro/sandbox please? I inadvertantly created it without placing the rather important User: in there , and the redirect page is now redundant. Thanks sats (talk) 08:33, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I deleted the redirect. I thought anyone could do that, though. No? As for the other stuff, go ahead and delete or archive anything you don't want to be here that concerns you, as long as it won't mess up a conversation that's important for some other reason. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:57, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
nah no big deal really - as for the delete - I didnt think ord eds could do... sats (talk) 12:00, 24 February 2013 (UTC)


Hello! I was just checking Prevalla. The text has been taken from [15] which is under Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 License and afaik, according to Wikivoyage:Copyleft, the user who created the article is able to use the text from it. Maybe I'm wrong but I think this has always been like this (CC-by-sa-3.0 or Pd is allowed on wikimedia projects). Thank you in advance--Arnaugir (talk) 15:41, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

You are right, but I don't think unattributed copying is OK, as we don't allow that from Wikipedia, either. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Yes, it should be cited, maybe in edit summary or talk page? like in wikipedia.--Arnaugir (talk) 14:52, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Suharto's regime & the military

I decided to put this on your page instead of on the Talk: Indonesia page since it seemed of interest to you and not so useful for travelers to know, perhaps. I hope that you don't mind.

Your comments about your experience in the 70's during Suharto's reign spurred my curiosity. Yesterday, I was judging a competition so, afterwards, I took the time to ask my fellow judges (all in their early/mid 30s) about the Suharto era. I also asked my mother-in-law today, whose husband was a police officer (he was part of the first batch to graduate from officer's school), about what her perception of that time was. I thought you might find the information interesting.

Prior to Suharto taking control, the masses viewed him as the best choice to succeed Sukarno. There was no awareness of his villainy and machinations against Sukarno. After his rise to president/dictator, the national educational system (at least up to secondary) was used as a propaganda system to plant in the minds of the masses that he was a great man. And, indeed, the commentators I spoke to all agreed that he did a great deal of good for the common person. But, they were - in effect - brainwashed into believing him to be a hero of the highest caliber (sounds like N. Korea, almost?). Three of the four stated they were completely unaware of Suharto's real nature prior to entering university. Even as the wife of an officer, my mom-in-law knew very little about what was going on because her husband didn't discuss police matters with her. One commented that there were rumors going around prior to university, but it was their fellow students (activists) who opened their eyes to the corruption and abuses of Suharto's regime. In particular, one of them commented that some of her "seniors" (activists) disappeared from campus, never to be heard from again. They all confirmed the illegal imprisonments, kidnappings and "petrus" (penembak misterius = mystery shooters). They also told me that Suharto had a special way of dealing with the craftiest of criminals in Indonesia - the ones who couldn't be caught or proved guilty: he'd have them shot.

An interesting comment: they all felt that corruption became MUCH worse after Suharto was ousted. I have to say, though, that in recent years I've noticed a bit of a decline in naughty behavior (but not enough for my tastes!). Perhaps, however, it's because I tend to take a hard line with corruptors so they know I'm not interested in giving "uang rokok".

A couple of years ago, I read the book "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" and he talked about being here during the 70's and how people were very politically aware - but he wasn't socializing with the masses. He was socializing with the well-educated. When you were there, were the people who were speaking out also well-educated (just curious)? If what they all said to me is accurate, then a great many Indonesians were unaware of the crimes committed (at least during his reign). I would love to be able to run a large-scale survey about this - it'd be very interesting, don't you think?

A few weeks ago, a man I met by chance recently popped in for a visit. During the course of conversation, he revealed to me that he believed that the military still rule Indonesia. If we look at the number of ex-military candidates (and SBY) who've run for president, one might wonder. So, I asked the same people for their thoughts on this topic. Here's what they said.

On a national and regional level, the military has a great deal of influence on the political process, even to the point of being able to make laws and influence decisions and, in fact, they have a body that has political power (PangLima, they said) at the national level, and the PangDam on a provincial level (or maybe I've got them reversed). These groups have a great deal of power, it seems.

In addition, they told me that the military is also very needed because of all the disasters so, while there are many stories of the military ripping off people (a neighbor back in Semarang was ripped off for an entire property by a commander quite recently), behaving as if they are superior to everyone else and abusing their power, they haven't been excised from general power. I also remember being told that the reason Megawati continued to back Sutiyoso as governor of Jakarta was because she needed his military connections. What's your take on this military angle? It certainly isn't obvious to me (aside from stories told to me recently), but I don't know a lot about the political structure here. ReveurGAM (talk) 06:39, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

From an academic point of view the military issue started in the 1940's and you cannot understand Indonesian history from then unless you have a very good understanding of their role from then until now. As to whether they are needed is irrelevent... in the end sats (talk) 08:18, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Great stories as usual, Reveur. The people who spoke with us in 1976 ran a fairly wide gamut. One of them was an artist who was imprisoned for years without trial in Buru, for no specified reason (he figured that an artists' union he belonged to was considered somehow Communist by the military) and then suddenly released, but most of them were working-class people like cab and bemo drivers and the driver the US Embassy provided for my father in Jakarta when he was lecturing at the auspices of the US Information Service. It's a long time ago, but it seems like easily over a dozen people we encountered spontaneously complained to us about "banyak korupsi." A particularly touching moment was when a cabbie in Jakarta recited an Indonesian translation of the preamble to the US Constitution by heart. It really touched me to see that, despite the US government's complicity with their government's depredations, most Indonesians seemed to still think of the US as a land of democracy and freedom and trust the American people. The only real exception was the time in Berastagi when teenagers threw clods of stone-hard dirt at my mother, yelling "Belanda" and continuing when we said "Bukan! Kami orang Amerika." Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:33, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

Administrator Barnstar Hires.png The Admin's Barnstar
In appreciation of your hard work and dedication. INeverCry 22:51, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, INeverCry. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:41, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Give me some work? :)

Could you find me some work, something to do, etc? I'm getting a tad bored. Ceadeus Slayer Sea of Blood -Underwater Ruins 19:43, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Can you draw maps? A map of the proposed boundary is needed here: Talk:South_Island#Boundary_of_Queenstown-Lakes_.2F_Otago.3F -- 21:15, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Also, there's always Wikivoyage: Recent changes patrol. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:45, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
If you like making articles, there is information here: 27 New section on folk religion provided by Spartacks and here: Pariaman information from an interview by me. These could be incorporated into a new article about Pariaman. Spartacks is from that general area, so he can probably answer questions for you. ReveurGAM (talk) 15:04, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
Would Spartacks consider writing the article? I've never been to Pariaman Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:27, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
I don't think he has time as he is one of the main editors for the new Minangkabau edition of WP and, thus, has a lot of work to do to make sure that the committee doesn't yank it. I just suggested it since Ceadeus said s/he was bored. When I have time again, I'll do it if it isn't done yet. Right now I'm busy researching for my book on education. ReveurGAM (talk) 05:21, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
Cool! Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:31, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


-- Alice 05:27, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Put it in Project:Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense if you like. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:30, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Indigenous tourism in australia

Sheesh the article text is an insult to the readers intelligence... rubbish... pity my laptop battery needs re-charging....sats (talk) 09:53, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

I might have a chance to look at it in about 18 hours but probably not sooner. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:02, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Still have computer problems - the generic preaching in the article might or not pass a wv test - but really the complexity of the culture and the issues in each separate state are worth explaining. My reason for being negative about the article is that it is hardly an example of well explained introduction to the heritage that spreads across the country, and has so many variations. Simply put the last few sentences are a bit too blandly generalised as to be of any use to a traveller... sats (talk) 08:16, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
I don't know enough about Aboriginal cultures to knowledgeably edit it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:45, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
OK I'll get around to try to broaden its scope, but will be delayed to real life issues... thanks for responding - cheers sats (talk) 08:48, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Of course! And remember, you're a volunteer here (as we all are), so no obligation, and deal with real-life issues first! All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:49, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
My resolve when I get the time next week is to see how indigenous populations in all other countries are dealt with... so maybe they are as good or as bad... as articles or sections of articles... sats (talk) 13:58, 7 March 2013 (UTC)


re: [16] - good idea. --Piotrus (talk) 05:41, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Glad to help! Welcome, and thanks for your edits.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:43, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Adding a hotel

How do you add a hotel to the site? Since the Best Western Haiti is a brand new hotel in Haiti and the only american owned hotel, I fell users could benefit from there information.

Do you work for the hotel or do publicity for them in any capacity? If so, you can't add a listing. If not, make sure you don't use ALL CAPS or otherwise touty, advertising-like language. As I said on your user talk page, please read wbo and dt. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:15, 13 March 2013 (UTC)


What is unclear about "The official tourist office or government web site for a destination"?

You can't put it as a naked link by itself. The title of the article, Newark (New Jersey) can have a link right after it to the official tourist office, or the tourist office can have a listing. It cannot be a naked link. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:10, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
But also, this is not a mere official tourist office link. You are linking a Vistors Guide. Wikivoyage:External links#What not to link to prohibits links to "Other travel guides," without specifying that official visitors guides are OK, and that is intentional. The list of landmarks should be used as a reference for editors here, not a link, though readers can certainly find it through the main site, which is linked at the top of the article.
The basis of many of the External Links policies is that we want information to be on this site, rather than off-site only, at some link. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:19, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Musandam Peninsula

Hi mate! I'm sadly back from my last trip. I started a complete overhaul of Musandam and Khasab to better ignore the snow. Could you check a bit for spelling, grammar etc. as i only start to see text? I want to bring it to guide, so that i'm able to nominate it for OtBP. I know that i have to change pics in Khasab but beside that, what is missing? Thank you and regards, jan (talk) 16:34, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi. Sure, I'll have a look when I have a chance. Sounds like an interesting trip! All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:52, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
Done! It looks like you had a fascinating trip! The main issues I saw were "alt" listings that were more or less repetitions of listing names. The "alt" field should be left blank unless, for example, a hotel used to have a different name (in which case, alt="Formerly known as X"). Also, addresses need to be street addresses, not post office boxes - the point of the addresses is not so that people can write to an attraction, but so they can get to it. All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:12, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your check! It now reads so much better. Writing on a IPhone definitely deteriorates the quality... The alt listing were already in from the past and i tried to delete them, too. Just to many of them and even on the Ipad hard to delete. Thanks again and have a nice easter weekend, jan (talk) 11:13, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
You're most welcome! Happy Easter to you, too. Where else did you go on your recent trip? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:01, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


Why not red link ? . פארוק (talk) 17:02, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Shalom and todah rabah for all your great work!
The reason why the red links weren't useful is that there will never be articles about attractions. Please read Wikivoyage:What is an article?.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:30, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Ok. but places of tourist visit, can i writte about this ?. פארוק (talk) 08:03, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Of course you can, and please continue! It's just that attractions should (except in very rare cases) be covered as "See" or "Do" entries within city guides, as you've been doing, and not in their own separate articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:26, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
But places that i put red link is places of tourist visiting. פארוק (talk) 09:07, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
I understand that, and what I'm saying is that red-linking attractions is not a useful way to emphasize them. Instead, put the name of the attraction in Bold type by using three ' in a row on either side ('''See or do name'''), and don't write any separate article about any attraction. Do you understand what I'm saying? Did you have a look at Wikivoyage:What is an article? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:14, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Ok. thank you very much. פארוק (talk) 09:16, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Any time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:18, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Appalachian Region

Should Appalachian Region and Appalachian Mountains be merged? Nicole Sharp (talk) 09:15, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps, to avoid confusion, but don't worry about that right now. I also replied in Talk:Appalachian Region.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:25, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


Yeah maybe it shouldn't be added, but the "secret" bases are definitely real, and its not uncommon to see tanks and military convoys chugging down the mountain on I-68, I see them at least every couple months or so. The NSA operates ECHELON (a satellite intercept facility) in the National Radio Quiet Zone, the only radio-quiet zone in the United States (where no radio transmissions are allowed in order for dishes to pick up signals from outer space). Another not-so-secret base is in Lewisburg, WV, where a huge top-secret facility was built under a luxury resort to hold the US Congress and Cabinet during a nuclear war. But there should be a Wikivoyage page to list UFO hotspots on and for Wikivoyagers to post where they saw UFO sightings. I've long advocated for using Wikimedia for organizing UFO sightings, Wikinews said they weren't interested :-(. Nicole Sharp (talk) 11:37, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

UFO hotspots is a fine travel topic, in my opinion, but it would be best to exercise caution and gain a consensus before starting the article. I get your point about secret military bases, but in what way is that a safety issue for travelers? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:44, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
I just wanted to weigh in and say that UFO hotspots could be an interesting travel topic for those tourists who are into that sort of stuff. But we have to be careful in avoiding it becoming an updatable list of sightings. It should only focus on hotspots, not every spot! :) JamesA >talk 11:49, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
I'll remove the section for UFOs#UFO sightings. However certain places such as locations of crashes or places with physical traces, abduction sites, etc. are still important for historical reasons and for ufological research, such as Roswell, NM or Kecksburg, PA. Nicole Sharp (talk) 11:54, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
Yup, those sorts of places are fine. JamesA >talk 11:55, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Yeah unless you're wanted by the Military Police I guess, I created a new page, UFOs. Nicole Sharp (talk) 11:48, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

User reply

You beat me to User talk:Ldecola by just a few seconds! :P I did have a short paragraph response written up, but you hit the nail on the head. In other matters, I'd appreciate your input (support if applicable) at Wikivoyage_talk:Barncompasses. Cheers, JamesA >talk 11:47, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Ikan. I had previously added Eritrea to my project list, but hadn't got around to it, prioritising Qatar instead. Info on Keren does seem to be fairly scarce. The only sources I can find are the Wikipedia article and an old Lonely Planet chapter on Eritrea. They do have a fairly detailed lot of listings on Keren. If you wanted to help develop our article, I can email you the chapter... just don't tell Lonely Planet :P JamesA >talk 06:54, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, James. Please make the edits whenever; no rush. Goodness knows, I have a lot of work to do for my actual paying job (as you may for yours). Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:02, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


Thanks for the proofread and the vote of confidence ;) Since you've already had a look over the article, would you mind commenting on the starnom? --Peter Talk 15:26, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Denial of service attack?

Swept in from the pub

What happened here? was inaccessible to me for some 15 hours. Instead, "DNS Advantage" came up. All other language versions of Wikivoyage worked, and the other travel wiki was also up. It would seem that there hasn't been nearly enough traffic here to hang this site. Is this being investigated as a possible denial of service attack? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:54, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Haven't seen anything of the sort from here. Texugo (talk) 22:07, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
No issues of that nature here, either. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:46, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
My guess is that it's a DNS caching issue rather than something on the WMF side. --Rschen7754 03:09, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
No problem seen here, Eastern Canada. The WP page on DNS_Advantage is interesting. Pashley (talk) 11:31, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
So what's my recourse if this happens again? It can't be purely accidental that was the only page that wasn't working, right? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:19, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
As Rschen7754 noted, a DNS issue is almost certainly a problem on your local machine or with your internet provider. There are options to flush DNS caches if the problem is on your machine (sometimes a reboot may do that), or you can try changing the DNS server you use for lookups - Google DNS is an option and there are some instructions on that page for using it. Note that changing DNS is a fairly technical thing, so probably best not to fiddle around with it unless you continue having problems. -- Ryan • (talk) • 19:56, 6 April 2013 (UTC)


Hi Ikan, thanks for the check-up. So now I found you as a Malaysia expert! ;-) Next August will likely be the first time I go there, as part of a South-East Asia trip, so I'm not too familiar with any of those places. Please do add any places I've missed. As for the "luxurious", as I understand it from the policy page that refers mostly to hotels and such. My point was rather to include a high-end resort hotspot in the see-section, like Goa would be in India or the French Riviera in France. I think part of the audience is always looking that. Of course there are resorts everywhere, but would Langkawi be a fair pick? Then I'll just try to find some other wordings. (P.S. any personal tips for not to miss places on Peninsular Malaysia are appreciated too haha ;-))) Cheers, JuliasTravels (talk) 09:33, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Julias. I have never been to Langkawi (nor to the Perhentian Islands, either, though my brother, who scuba dives, loved them). My expertise is dated, too: I haven't been to Malaysia since 2004. I also have yet to visit East Malaysia (the part of Malaysia on Borneo). All that said, and with the caveat that I speak Malay fluently and have an appreciation for Malay culture that ordinary visitors without anthropologist mothers and a history of living in a kampung (Malaysian village) may lack, I'll mention that on my last trip, I liked KL very much, though it was of course radically different from on my previous trip (1975-77!). I also found that, though much more developed, the coast of Terengganu was still beautiful (actually, the petrochemical plants near Paka are also beautiful!), and Kota Bharu was interesting for about 3-4 days (I probably stayed a day too long - I think I was there for 5 - and I understand the local dialect perfectly, as it's very similar to Terengganu dialect, which I was fluent in, so take that as a caveat). I enjoyed a couple of days in Ipoh very much; there's great food there and it's a more relaxing city than KL, with some nice late 19th/early 20th-century colonial buildings in the center of town. There are also some interesting cave temples nearby - karst limestone hills (I think) that have been turned into mostly Chinese temples, though one I visited was Hindu.
In the 70s, I found Penang very much worth visiting, but I didn't make it back in 2004. I'm sure it's still worth visiting. It's renowned for great food and has a character all its own. We enjoyed taking a funicular railway to the highest point on the island; see if it's still operating.
Malacca disappointed us because there are only a few old colonial buildings, but it's probably worth going there, anyway. Malacca is well-known for Peranakan/Nyonya cuisine, traditionally cooked by the descendants of Malay women who married Chinese men hundreds of years ago (after the Chinese were sent as a result of Qin Shi Huang's voyages). The Peranakan people are mostly not Muslims, so they eat pork, but their cuisine is a fusion of Chinese and Malay influence. You can get it in places other than Malacca, but that may be the place where it's easiest to get it in great diversity.
I did not go to Johor but did visit Singapore, had great food, but found it too antiseptic. But that was 1976. I hear it's quite a lot more individualistic now, in relative terms.
There were some more off-the-beaten-track places we liked in the 70s, too: In Negeri Sembilan, we liked the Istana Lama (Old Palace) in Seri Menanti; a web search shows that there's now a RM150/night resort there. Kemaman, Terengganu had a few beautiful ornate wooden buildings of a style influenced by the royal style of Johor, perhaps dating from the time when Kemaman was a semi-autonomous area with its own quasi-sultan. I have no idea if any of those buildings still stand and haven't found photos of any of them on Commons.
You might consider also visiting Indonesia. There's much more traditional culture still happening there, at least in parts of the country. Traditional Malay culture has been stamped out to a large degree as antithetical to orthodox Islam, whereas the Indonesian government has to a large extent sponsored a continuation of traditional culture like Kejawen (Javaneseness) in Java.
All that said, if your main interest is scuba diving, I think that Sipadan and the Perhentian Islands are for you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:08, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks a lot Ikan, that's far more information than I would have dared to ask for. No, scuba diving is not really my thing (although I'd love to learn properly one day), so your suggestions are very welcome. I'll only have a week or two for Malaysia this time. Indonesia, especially Bali, is our next destination, hopefully for a longer tour. Again, thanks :-) JuliasTravels (talk) 11:13, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
You're most welcome. In a week, a trip to the East Coast might be a bit much to do, but if you go back, it would be a good change of pace from the more heavily populated and ethnically diverse (or/and more Chinese) West Coast cities of KL, Penang, Ipoh, Malacca, etc. Terengganu and Kelantan are very Malay and probably still pretty peaceful on rural areas of the coast, though the cities of Kuantan, Kuala Terengganu, and Kota Bharu were already humongous in 2004 by comparison with the 70s, with most of the virgin jungle cut down near the coast for profit and to make way for communities that didn't use to exist. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:54, 7 April 2013 (UTC)


Hello Ikan Kekek, please block the above username, as it is probably [17] a violation of the username policy that represents a group, organisation, or website. By the way, do you know and how do I send block nominations? Regards, —CURTAINTOAD!— 07:00, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

What username policy are you referring to? I don't know of such a policy, so please point to the relevant policy page. Moreover, from what I've seen so far, the user in question has presented a very cooperative attitude.
I also don't know of block nominations, only nominations for URL blocks, which can be posted to MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:07, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Bot to add banners to Category:Austria

Hi Ikan. I noticed you seem to be about in the Recent Changes. I'd appreciate if you'd add your administrator's support at Wikivoyage:Script_nominations#User:Traveler100bot_pagebanner. Traveler100 is going on a plane soon, and it'd be good if we could have something to play with and test at Austria before that happens. With regards, JamesA >talk 06:56, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Links to Wikipedia

Hi Ikan, you removed links to Wikipedia from Leiden article. But it seems to me that is not what this policy article suggests: Cheers, Erik Zachte (talk) 19:11, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Did you read Wikivoyage:Links to Wikipedia#Different subject? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:32, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
No, I just did, thanks. I also looked at the discussion page, and see this has been hotly debated recently. To me it seems odd for Wikivoyage to become a Wikimedia project and still treat Wikipedia as a foreign site. 100,000's of articles would have to be replicated to bring depth to Wikivoyage on buildings, people and more where it is readily available one link away. Anyway, you were right that your action was according to current policy. Cheers, Erik Zachte (talk) 14:35, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Yes, this is indeed a hotly-debated question, and one you could contribute your own viewpoint to. But do keep in mind that a link to Wikipedia is a standard feature of almost all Wikivoyage articles. The debate is about whether it serves the site to have multiple links to Wikipedia in each article, on different subjects than the subject of the article, and also on whether it really does serve the traveler to link to a tertiary source, and one particular such source, in entries (or even more controversially, anywhere in an article).Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:42, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

About Sochi

  • The Jewish Autonomous Oblast has always been "autonomous", even in Soviet times; more so than Abkhazia or the Sochi region have ever been, I guess. I think best to undo the change and remove the word "autonomy" as superfluous. Ibaman (talk) 19:51, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Sounds fine to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:19, 16 April 2013 (UTC)


Thanks for your revisions. Only I don't understand your question "What "the first decennium"? Do you mean the decade 1-10 AD or 1900-1910? Copy edited, but this point still needs clarification." Concerning the text: The current suburbs, Leidschendam and Voorburg, developed in the 20th century. Voorburg, which is closer to central The Hague, started to grow already in the first decenniums. Leidschendam only started to become a suburb in the fifties, and as a consequence in this town highrise developed on a rather larger scale, whereas Voorburg was already fully built up in the era of highrise architecture.

Isn't it very clear that it's about 1900-1920 or 1930. Also in the sentence before is described dat Voorburg developed as a suburb in the 20th century.VanuitVoorburg (talk) 13:40, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi. We don't use the word "decennium" in English. The word we use is "decade," but based on what you're telling me, the text should read "the early 20th century." I'll have a look. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:39, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks again and sorry for my mistakes!VanuitVoorburg (talk) 17:49, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
You're welcome, and there's no cause to apologize; the important thing is that you put up the content! Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:38, 3 May 2013 (UTC)


Thanks. Don't know how that happened. My guess is that the page hadn't fully loaded when I saved it. --RegentsPark (talk) 19:05, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Glad to help.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:23, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Photo linking help

Swept in from the pub

Hi, everyone. Please have a look at Latina. Two of the photos I just tried to link are showing up as red links. That's because they are in, not Commons, as I detail in Talk:Latina. I suppose the solution is to move the photos to Commons, but I don't know how to do that and also don't know whether that could be a problem in regard to Italy's law (if any) on photos of architecture from the 1930s. I feel like showing a bit of fascist architecture is the right thing to do in the Latina guide, since the city was inaugurated in 1932 and probably is still chock-full of fascist architecture as it was in 1991, when I had occasion to be there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:43, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

They are both in the Public Domain and you can transfer the photos yourself (the images are: 1 & 2). They have both been tagged for transfer to Commons. I don't understand why some images uploaded to Wikipedia remained tagged for transfer for years and don't get moved by the transfer bot. AHeneen (talk) 09:01, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for confirming that they are in the public domain. Is there someplace I can read easy instructions on how to transfer the photos? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:21, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
Maybe take a look at [18]. Or else I could do it for you if you want :) JamesA >talk 10:05, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. I took care of it, but boy did those file transfers take a long time! Do they usually take several minutes apiece with a DSL connection? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:29, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
It's not your connection that's important, I think... unless you downloaded and re-uploaded the files manually. By the way, the images on the Italian Wikipedia now need to be marked with their equivalent of w:Template:NowCommons so that they can be deleted. LtPowers (talk) 15:03, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
I took care of it. It turns out to be the same template on Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:57, 19 April 2013 (UTC)


Hello Ikan Kekek, thank you for welcoming :)

Do you know how can I rename (correct) titles?

Peñíscola, Dénia, etc. are spelled with acute accents. Lliure albir (talk) 21:33, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Is it also possible we rename Valencia (region) to either Valencia (autonomous community) or Valencian Community?
Yes to your first question. What would be required would be to move the article. At the top of the page, you should see a triangle facing down. From the dropdown menu, select "Move." Then, in the move screen, type the spelling you want to move the article to and give a reason in the summary box. Always leave a redirect behind at the former spelling. If this is any trouble, you can always propose the move in the talk (discussion) page for the article in question and someone else will execute the move unless there's some reason not to do it.
As for your second question on renaming "Valencia," I'm guessing not, but the right place to bring this up for discussion is Talk:Valencia. The reason I doubt you could get a consensus behind such a rename is that we don't like long official names, as the point of this site is to serve the traveller.
One unrelated thing: Official tourism sites should be put as a URL only in square brackets [], at the beginning of the the article right after the place name.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:43, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for your help =)
I can't see the small triangle, why? Could that be because I am a new user? Lliure albir (talk) 22:06, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I think there may be some minimum amount of time a user has to be registered before s/he can move a page, but I don't know for sure. So maybe your best bet is to post the suggested name changes on the talk pages of each article Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:20, 19 April 2013 (UTC)


Thanks for the textual adjustments of this article. English is not my native language (I'm Dutch) so any improvement is welcome. A few days ago I added the article Ustica. I would appreciate if you give it a short review. WiDi (talk) 10:15, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Sure thing. I'll have a look some time over the weekend.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:21, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
It was quite good. Most of what I changed had to do with the treatment of URLs, for which, see external links. But there will probably be a change to the standard format soon, anyway. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:41, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for your help. WiDi (talk) 14:33, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
You're welcome.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:49, 29 April 2013 (UTC)


For the edits at eyre highway - I have done it too many times in different ways to feel that enamoured of the 10 hour + stretches of nothing... will check it again - thanks again (last time - Eucla to Perth in one go... sigh, I dont think I'll ever try that again) sats (talk) 10:24, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, it sounds deadly! There's a stretch of highway in southern California like that - 60 miles straight through desert. I've flown over it. I think it goes from LA to Las Vegas. People speed to avoid falling asleep at the wheel, so I've heard. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:29, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

English Variant Editing

Hi Ikan, I have been writing my contributions to South and North Korea in US English (I am myself British). I don't really accept that 'Commonwealth English' is a standard when no local English language variant exists, however Wikitravel policy seems vague on this point. Do you know of a way that that this issue can be resolved by explicit policy? Thanks! Andrew

Hi, Andrew. The current policy is essentially enunciated at Wikivoyage:Spelling. The key point: "If the destination has no history of using English and no clear preference for the variety to use, we prefer US English spelling." My feeling is that your approach is exactly right: That South Korea prefers US spellings and North Korea presumably prefers British spellings. There may be room to argue for a default to US spelling for North Korea, but I really don't see it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:19, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Well, it doesn't seem like the biggest issue. I actually haven't seen any evidence that North Korea uses British English for official documents, therefore I assume US English should be the one used. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:57, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
It is crystal clear that US English is the variant to be used for South Korea.
However, I find it slightly comical that you think that the DPRK would specifically sanction US English in the same way their sworn enemies in the south do, Andrewssi2. What passes for official DPRK sites typically use non-US spelling (eg: uses time-honoured and metres rather than "time-honored" and meters) and that non-US spelling version is also the one that most North Koreans I have met (and I have met a large number both inside and outside the DPRK) use. All the official forms for tourists in use in North Korea that I have seen (eg: hotel registration forms and meal ordering) use (relatively good and correct) non-US spellings - but using the OED idiosyncracy of -ize rather than -ise.
This may change very suddenly of course if the current Kim family tyrant has another whim.
I agree that our wv:Spelling policy page is less than clear at the moment. To see why, you can read through the interminable argy bargy at Wikivoyage_talk:Spelling.
For a clearer statement of what I also believe to be the current working practice here at Wikivoyage, you might like to read the page from which we forked a while back: (a lot of people put a lot of effort into that site and it's a pity to see it go to waste).
If you ever visit the DPRK - or even one of their diplomatic missions - you'll understand why I find your earlier stance that DPRK articles should exclusively use US English ever so slightly risible.
PS: I'm NOT British (huge conspiratorial grin). -- Alice 07:21, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
I'm in agreement with Alice here. North Korea is in China's sphere of influence, to the extent they pay attention to anyone, and clear enemies of the US. I would continue using British spellings for strictly North Korea articles. If there's a real question about that, it might be necessary to spend time discussing that at Talk:North Korea. But I would just do it, and not spend time discussing it on a talk page, trying to gain a consensus, since there are more important things to discuss at length. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:38, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Ikan Kekek is again spot on when he suggests using the discussion page of a particular article to seek a consensus to change the spelling variety of English where a consistent particular variety has been established already on non-destination articles or where the destination has no clear link to a particular variety. In the proximate case, most of our current editors for our DPRK articles (including, I presume, yourself) are happier with non-US varieties. (Including our resident IP apologists for the DPRK regime). -- Alice 08:32, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Alice, Ikan. I actually really don't mind which version of English is used, just that there would be a clear policy around it and that policy that could be clearly applied to all Wikivoyage articles. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:40, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
I think we really can't do that. It would look very odd to have articles about Britain in American English and articles about the US in British English, and enforcing either policy would waste loads of time and cause lots of pretty justified offense. The most we can do is be consistent for each country. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:43, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
I know that "lists" are anathema to a lot of stalwarts here, but I really do think it would save a lot of (ultimately not very productive) typing if we could just tweak policy to specify the 113 odd countries where there is a relatively clear varietal connection. Those 113 probably will account for more than 85% of all editing on Wikivoyage. I agree that the remaining 96 odd "countries" may be slightly problematic, but my idea of an approach to their respective governments for adjudication would probably only leave 3-7 "undecideds".-- Alice 09:00, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
I agree, but that probably needs to be discussed in a policy page to gain the indubitable, exhausting consensus... Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:04, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Alice's suggestion is actually what I meant around policy clarification. I'm not sure what mechanism in WikiVoyage (if any) could be employed to achieve the consensus --Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:53, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
As Alice suggested, you may want to slog through the preexisting discussion at Wikivoyage Talk:Spelling and give your 2 pence. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:23, 30 April 2013 (UTC)


Hello Ikan Kekek,
Just for practice I played with the Maastricht routebox. Is this a correct way? I ask this as the route numbers change at the Belgium border. A2 becomes A25, and N278 changes into N79.

Routes through archive
AmsterdamGeleen  N NL-A2.png S  → Belgium Border (6 km) → A25 Liège
ENDHeerlen  E NL-A79.png w  END
AachenVaals  E US blank wide.svg w  → Belgium Border → N79 Sint-Truiden

WiDi (talk) 12:35, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Maybe I was to fast with my question. I found Wikivoyage:Routebox navigation. I think this is better. Do you agree? WiDi (talk) 13:10, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
Routes through archive
AmsterdamGeleen  N NL-A2.png S  → Belgium Border (6 km) → BE-A25.svg Liège
ENDHeerlen  E NL-A79.png w  END
AachenVaals  E US blank wide.svg w  → Belgium Border → BE-N79.svg Sint-Truiden

Yes, the second one looks better. I'd say, go ahead and put the routebox in. In the event someone thinks it can be improved (which I doubt), they can always edit it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:39, 3 May 2013 (UTC)


Thanks for the support. I'll be patient. :)

The reason I mentioned possible hesitation from contributions to the project by users from Croatia if inapropriate grouping would remain was not intended to be a form of pressure or threat, but based on cognition I have that some very deligent and laborious users (and admins) of Wikipedia in Croatian language don't contribute to the Wikipedia in English. Just because of their experience with similar things on regarding favouring mental concepts instead of knowledge about Croatia history and culture. People don't like to fight against windmills. Maybe what I mentioned is the reason why isn't so clear about Croatia as a Central European and Mediterranean country. I wouldn't like if that problem would appear here as well and I'm pretty convinced it won't because wikivoyage has excellent The traveller comes first rule you pointed to me. So I think and hope consensus will eventually be made to respect the rule properly in this subject too. Please have understanding if my English is not always correct.

Now I'm gonna spend some time exploring the project in order to start contributing articles. All the best, Vrkach (talk) 00:18, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

All good points, in my opinion. Thanks.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:51, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Avalon vacation rentals

Would you care to weigh in on Talk:Avalon#Vacation Rentals? Thanks! Mcd51 (talk) 01:19, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Unconstructive threat

I have removed your constructive threats from my page: in future, please could you keep discussions civil.—The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)

I told you that you needed to stop edit warring and could be blocked if you continued. I think that's more civil than blocking you without warning, and the warning may have been what led to this discussion, so I'm unconvinced it had a bad effect but will certainly avoid mentioning these things if you continue being constructive. We want anyone who is here to improve the guide. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:35, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Hi - you were being unconstructive & aggresive. Also, your claim that "You've given no good reason to change" could easily be classed as hypocritical considering your lack of a summary for this edit [19], and it is also incorrect as I gave an explanation (in the same vein as another by you) here [20] —The preceding comment was added by User: (talkcontribs)
I don't have to give the same editing summary twice for the same edit, and the fact that Taiwan is not in the US is not a meaningful explanation of why British spellings should be used, because Taiwan isn't in Britain, either, as you of course know. I don't see a point in discussing this further. Go ahead and edit the content, as you discussed below, but leave the American spellings unless you can give a good reason for why they should be changed to British spellings. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:46, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Taipei article

Please advise:

  • Why spellings unique to the US should be used for non-US articles.
There are quite a few discussions on WikiVoyage around this very point. Usually each country uses one variant of English for local usage (either American English or 'Commonwealth' English). Taiwan would be regarded as using American English. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:33, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Why you describe the 'metro' as 'subway'. The former is by far more universally used, whilst the latter has other meanings.
  • Why you added 'pavements (US English: sidewalks)'. I can find no other comparable explanations, such as 'subway (English: metro)'.
  • Why you added the personal commentary 'My favorite is the kobe beef pot and mushroom pot.'
  • Why you replaced the widely recognised 'air-con' with 'A/C', which is less widely used and is open to misunderstanding.
  • Why you added a number of unnecessary exclaimation marks '!'. —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)
First, please sign talk pages by typing 4 tildes in a row (~~~~).
Second, I didn't add anything: I just reverted your edits, which introduced unnecessary British English. I don't have a dispute with the other changes you are mentioning, but we've had a problem lately with people changing Taiwan articles to British English unnecessarily, so I'm a bit sensitive about this. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:27, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
  • "Second, I didn't add anything" Then you simply blind reverted changes? And then posted an unconstructive threat to me about my edits!
  • "we've had a problem lately with people changing Taiwan articles to British English unnecessarily" Why is this a 'problem', especially as 'British' English is what is used outside the US?
<ANSWER> The is factually incorrect. 'British' English is not the accepted English spelling system in every country outside the US. Taiwan is a case in point. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:12, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Andrew, I don't think I would spend time "correcting" a Taiwan article that was originally written in British English, but I think it's clear that Taiwan has a strong cultural connection with the US, and not nearly so strong with Britain (though there are longstanding ties with Hong Kong), so if anyone _changes_ American to British English in Taiwan articles, I will revert. Similarly, someone recently "corrected" British English in an article about a place in Belgium to American English, and I reverted that. Basically, I look askance as language trolls and believe there should be a strong reason to change one form of standard English to another. So I will, for example, change American to British spellings in articles about India, but I won't change spellings in either direction for places like Ethiopia, where I'm totally unclear on whether anyone there would care what spellings are used. Anyone who changes from one standard form of English to another should have a good reason for doing so, and explain it in their editing summary. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:42, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Hi Ikan, I am not user I was responding to user --Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:44, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
I know that, but I felt like further addressing your comment, anyway. Thanks, Andrew.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:47, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Oh, I figured out what happened. The bulleted list is all from the IP user, and you replied to the first question. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:50, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Adirondack Park

I promise, it's not a state park [21] ;) It's taxonomy is weird, but there's more info at w:Adirondack Park#Today. --Peter Talk 05:05, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

OK. That wasn't made clear at the official sites I looked at, but it sounds authoritative. Thanks, Peter. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:13, 14 May 2013 (UTC)


Cuba is a democracy and has not been a single party state since the 90's. Stop spreading false information.


I won't debate this. If you'd like to engage in political polemics, go to some other site where people are interested. This is a travel guide, not a political debating club. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:27, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

User blocks

Hey Ikan - re User talk:, we've updated our policies to allow blocking of vandals if they are blocked for the same offense on other Mediawiki wikis (Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits#User ban). In this case the user is blocked for six months for vandalism on Wikipedia - w:Special:Contributions/ - so definitely don't feel that you need to offer too much leniency here. -- Ryan • (talk) • 14:55, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that user was blocked on any other wiki.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:36, 23 May 2013 (UTC)


Long time no speak. Toodyay is a country town which I was in yesterday, trying to encourage the local history society, and council to be part of a wikimedia australia QR project in the town. I think the most recent edits apart from mine are put in a misguided good faith, so I havent directly accused of being touts - despite the user name. I have left a note, welcome and expect either a re-visit, or re-edit is possible. It would be great if you could have it on your watch... thanks sats (talk) 08:48, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Sure thing. Lately, I've been busy looking through articles I edited a long time ago and doing things like adding photos from Commons that weren't available in the Wikitravel days. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:50, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
excellent anything to help the old thing along - not even 6 months in this current form and sure looks like it needs some piccies!! sats (talk) 09:02, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Geo WV icon on map

Hello Ikan. I have a question. If I put Geo coordinates in an article and watch the result, the map does not show the Wikivoyage icon. For Instance Eindhoven and Nuenen. Can you tell me what I'm doing wrong or do I have to be patient and wait for an automatic bot doing this. Thanks. WiDi (talk) 09:30, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi, WiDi. I'm sorry; I'm ignorant about how Geo coordinates work. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:32, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Reverted your reversion on Wikivoyage:Policies

Hello, I reverted your edit per Wikivoyage:Autoconfirmed_users. Just to be sure, it is four days, correct? Or is Wikivoyage:Autoconfirmed_users incorrect? Surfer43 (talk) 21:47, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I actually don't know, but thanks for linking to a policy page. I'll assume the information you've linked to is accurate, unless someone who knows for sure contradicts it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:39, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
I believe that's what it is on all WMF wikis. Some wikis require a certain number of edits as well, but I don't think this one does. --Rschen7754 04:26, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
It was 30 on WT for autopatrolled. (I don't think we even had autoconfirmed over there.) Four days is probably right, if I'm reading this discussion correctly, but only someone that can view LocalSettings.php on the server itself can verify that. -- D. Guillaume (talk) 04:41, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Possibly hacked account

Hi. I'm User:electAbuzzzz. I'm afraid my account might've been hacked, although no use of it has been made since... I'm turning to you simply because you're the admin who made me autopatrolled. A few days ago another site of which I'm a member has been hacked, and now I can't log in here on Wikimedia. I'm 99.999% sure I'm using the correct password, but the worrying part is that when I try to reset the password, it says that "There is no email address recorded for user ElectAbuzzzz", even though I have the email-confirmation mail in my inbox. Anything we can do about that? I'm assuming you can check the IP, or have me send you the confirmation mail. Thanks -- 15:17, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi, FYI I'm looking into this. --Peter Talk 18:44, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, Peter. Sorry to hear this, ElectAbuzzzz. Hang in there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:56, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Somewhat to my surprise, it looks like there isn't really a process for dealing with hijacked accounts. We have a local process that could work, though. If you can still log in to WT, do so, post a statement letting us know that you posted this message here, and also forward me your confirmation email. If that all checks out, register a new account on Wikivoyage, and I will merge your ElectAbuzzzz account history into your new account, and delete the old account. Please do this ASAP, as the way the WMF handles accounts is going to change in the near future. --Peter Talk 16:59, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
OK, this is me from my new account. I had to already create it in order to be able to e-mail you (which only registered users can do). Please respond to my e-mail, so that I could forward you my confirmation mail. Here is my message on WT. Once I'll send you my confirmation e-mail, that's all you asked. Thanks for your help! --Buzzy (talk) 10:06, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
You've provided (and exceeded) the same amount of evidence we require to claim the contributions history of a legacy account, so I feel comfortable merging your ElectAbuzzzz contributions into your new account. --Peter Talk 21:20, 15 July 2013 (UTC)


Thank you for your kind support of the cross-wiki discussion concerning Travemünde. I started to like that so much that i intend to bring to star level until the presentation. I have completed the entries/content of all sections and hope to nominate it some time next week for star. Would you be so kind to cross check all the little nasty things a non-native English speaker might miss? Thank you in advance and best regards, jan (talk) 11:49, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

P.S. I asked Pashly/Sandy the same thing because he started a while ago to check what i do in parts.
I'm very jetlagged because I just got back to New York from Berlin last night, but I will check when I have the chance. Thanks a lot! All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:15, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Ikan, take your time. Star noms usually take months. Hope you had a great time in Berlin. It is a great city. Regards, jan (talk) 05:37, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your proof reading and real-time corrections. It is very much appreciated. I will be on holidays from mid-August and hope to have the first round of feedback done until then. Best regards, jan (talk) 14:02, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
You're most welcome. Thanks for adding the content! Best regards, Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:22, 16 July 2013 (UTC)


Thanks, I've been finding Wikivoyag a useful guide to hotels in unfamiliar cities lately, so I thought I'd add some of the ones I've been pleased with in more comfortable terrain. DavidArthur (talk) 17:13, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! The kinds of descriptions you're putting in those hotel listings are very helpful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:18, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

hills around Jerusalem

Hi. if you look at Wikipedia, so some of that Mountains have a lot of information and tourist places. פארוק (talk) 22:11, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It also has lots of information about other attractions, like the Louvre Museum, that don't get their own article in Wikivoyage. All useful information about those mountains should be possible to cover in appropriate district articles for Jerusalem. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:13, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Stop threatening me

I've helped a lot to improve this article, but if you want to suspend my account, I don't care, I'm offering a great help in the article about Colombia. You're a tyrant that tries to remove information completely correct.

"A country twice the size of France, and with a diversity of landscapes and cultures that would be hard to find even in countries five times its size, Colombia potentially belongs in the upper echelons of the world's most incredible travel destinations, now you can enjoy one of Latin America's best kept secrets for you and an increasing numbers of tourists." - This information I not added it, this information was in the article for a long time and seems completely correct.

I've traveled to Colombia and I am quite sure that this information is not disproportionate. You do not know Colombia, then I ask that you allow people who has visited Colombia edit this article.

what are you smoking?

That is not my ip, what are you smoking? --Theryx7 (talk) 02:08, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

That might be more convincing if you hadn't just edited his talk page from that IP. -- D. Guillaume (talk) 02:18, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Don't bother me, I have nothing to do with the vast ignorance of users such as D. Guillaume or Ikan Kekek
Anyone can edit these pages --Theryx7 (talk) 03:17, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Are you denying that this edit is yours? -- D. Guillaume (talk) 03:20, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
You can read this information (One intermediate revision by one user not shown).
Is your stupidity low or high? --Theryx7 (talk) 03:49, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Field decoration

Barnstar of Diligence Hires.png The Barnstar of Patience
is awarded in recognition of extraordinary patience when trying to gently nudge editors in a more collegiate direction.

Have a couple of drinks on me, Ikan Kekek!
W. Franke-mailtalk20:09, 18 July 2013 (BST)

Thanks, Frank. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:22, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Judaean Mountains

the Judaean Mountains are not in the Shefela. the Shefela is much lower place. can you please fix that ?. thank you. פארוק (talk) 19:41, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Respectfully, no, I can't do that by myself. Another admin (I forget who) already explained that if you would like to argue for a different regional division of Israel on this site, you need to do so at Talk:Israel and try to achieve a consensus for your proposal. Things are done by consensus here. And I don't have an opinion about your proposal, so you'll need to convince others. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:43, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


Hi! Just so you know, that's the "Test, just a test" spammer who spams those messages across multiple wikis and is the subject of many global blocks. --Rschen7754 08:22, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh. Thanks. In that case... Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:24, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Need to develop compassion

Hi there. I am a long term Wikiproject person. Recently, after taking a lot of time to add some new content, you changed it and I had to tediously go back and modify it again to retain the original meaning (whilst conforming to minor stylistic change). Earlier, some of my photography was deleted. I was shocked to find that in both of these bad experiences cases, *you were involved*. Could you please think a little more about the effect of your actions on others before policy-thumping? To be frank, you come across as a bit of an asshole. Pratyeka (talk) 05:10, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Try being less "frank" and more flexible next time. I replied on your user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:10, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Re: Flags in banners

Hi Ikan, thank you for bringing that to my attention. I wasn't fully aware that adding flags to banners was still in discussion before being adopted into a policy. As you can probably tell, I'm still getting used to Wikivoyage, but I love the site! I'll be more careful next time. Vacationer (talk) 15:30, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. I really appreciate your respect for the need for consensus. Happy editing and please ask me any question you like (within reason, of course :-)
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:32, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Ikan, there are still flags in the banners on Sweden, Norway, and Somalialand...shouldn't these be removed as well if we've yet to reach a consensus on these decorations? Vacationer (talk) 13:27, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, indeed they should be. Thanks, Vacationer.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:53, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
With respect, I disagree.
Unlike most banner images, the flag is not just a "decoration" or eye- candy. It has a practical value if you are looking out for it on some road signs near borders.
As I understand the way that consensus is supposed to work on this site, the status quo should normally obtain until there is a consensus to change something.
Most of our country level articles have featured a small image of that country's flag for many years. It may well be that a new consensus that "it would be helpful for the traveller to have to go off-site to somewhere like Wikipedia to see in advance what that country's flag looks like" will shortly emerge - but I don't think we've reached that point yet. --W. Franke-mailtalk 20:04, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
Adding flags to banners was a new idea, and has met significant community opposition. If you wish to contribute constructively, please join the discussion regarding where to put the flag. --Peter Talk 20:28, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
Unless I've misunderstood the history, the main motivation for having these horizontal minimalist ToC's was to avoid "squeezed worm syndrome" - not remove flags from our articles. Since we don't vote here, there would not be much that I could add to that discussion. Until and unless there is a consensus to remove flags it really is rather disingenuous and a disservice to the traveller to remove them from banners. --W. Franke-mailtalk 21:15, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
I have no problem with flags being in articles, though I'd rather they be somewhere other than the pagebanner. However, your discussing this here is not nearly as likely to persuade anyone to change the current policy than if you choose to discuss policy matters outside of a user talk page. Meanwhile, I think you're aware of how consensus works here: It's required to change a policy, not to keep the status quo, which will continue to be enforced until it is actively changed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:46, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Panama City Entry being deleted

Hi Ikan - I got tour message. Your message said that business owners and employees are not allowed to add listings. The page you refered me to - Welcome Business Owners - says business owners and employees of a business are allowed to add entries to the Wiki. Is there a better way to add the entry? Maybe you can help me to do it the right way. I tried to use all the fields correctly. Nevertheless a hotel listing is important to let travelers know where to stay thus I want to add it. Please let me know. Thanks. -- Fernando • (talk)

Moved to end of page - will reply in your talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:22, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Video entry into travel pages

Hello, I checked the discussion page and it seems people are still discussing it. The strange part is Wikipedia is trying to allow and develop all forms of information to spread better knowledge to everybody. But especially some people limiting videos in one part of Wikipedia sounds like some anarchy thing. I will involve into that main discussion thanks for your notice. Orgio89 (talk) 06:21, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Indeed feel free to give your input, but please keep in mind that this is Wikivoyage, not part of Wikipedia. If part of your argument is that this site is really part of Wikipedia, it is unlikely to be well received.
Also, while some discussion is still occurring, this site operates based on consensus, and since there is strong opposition from more than one or two people to allowing video files on this site, it's a foregone conclusion that the existing policy that prohibits them from being linked will be sustained for some time to come (probably years).
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:38, 5 August 2013 (UTC)


Actually there was a request here (Talk:Vilnius) and then you have said it was a 'good idea' to create a redirect. Sorry if i did it in a wrong way but it clearly says how to create a redirect - Wikivoyage:How to redirect a page

1Arena1hu (talk) 22:23, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I remember now. But I didn't realize there was another place called Wilno that had an article. If there were no other place called Wilno, a redirect would be a good idea. But since there is, it is not a viable idea. I think the "other uses" idea in the currently-existing Wilno article is the best solution. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:04, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
I see that Globe-trotter dealt with this issue. Sorry for the confusion, but everything has worked out for the best. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:09, 8 August 2013 (UTC)


In Bethuadahari for the Tourist Lodge the ONLY place for booking is in the main office of the department in Kolkata. They are not agents but owners and a government department at that. There is no booking at Bethudahari. This is the system with all Tourist & Forest Department bookings of the Govt. of West Bengal. So, please don't delete such details. You may delete all booking details of Kolkata AGENTS, but not the Kolkata Offices of owners, which is easily identifiable. As regards, the monitoring levels and authority. I am not really worried on that front. I am also sorry for some mistakes I made and it is good that you cautioned me against the same. Cheers. - Chandan Guha (talk) 06:08, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Chandan. Thanks for explaining. I will put that information back in, with the specifications you've given. However, we do need to include the location of the lodge in "address," so that travellers can find it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:12, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
Such places don't have an address as such. It would just be Bethuadahari, which is not wanted. Later, I would try to get a location on the Google map. If available, I will place the coordinates. Thanks and cheers. - Chandan Guha (talk) 06:24, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
Excellent. Thank you very much. All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:41, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Anonymous user issue

Hi Ikan, there is a rather aggressive anonymous user going around the north korea pages. Panmunjeom is a good example.

Since I cannot communicate with him/her, what is the best course of action? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 14:50, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I see. You can always try posting to their user talk page, but it doesn't look like that's likely to work. It's still the best course of action, though. I can post a warning about edit warring. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:27, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, by putting the block in the anonymous user at least has started writing on my User page rather than waging edit war on the page itself. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:55, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
We're watching him/her. Edit warring sucks.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:22, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
Hi Ivan, it seems the user placed an abusive message on my talk page. (I deleted it, however it can be seen in the history). I have argued with him however have not been abusive towards them at any time. What can be done (if anything) for such an action by an anonymous user? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 10:11, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
Hi Ikan Kekek - let's see about the claim "have not been abusive towards them at any time": [22]
With respect to both of you for caring about the content of articles here, I'll nevertheless say that I'm not very interested in trying to referee personal disputes. If you folks can't discuss content without it turning into a personal fight, I would strongly suggest you avoid each other's talk pages and write only on the talk pages of articles, and only about the content of those articles, not about anyone's behavior. As you know, all editors here (including admins) are volunteers, and as we don't get paid by the hour, we're not interested in wasting time policing bad behavior, and when that becomes necessary, suspensions of accounts can quickly follow. If they do, I can assure you that we can see who among you is the more belligerent and who is the more constructive and has contributed more content. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:39, 11 August 2013 (UTC)


The edit summary for this edit mentioned touting.

I've been meaning to add a lot of material to all our Nelson articles for quite some while, but I've been considerably distracted and had my morale sapped by all these wicked and lying sockpuppet allegations. It's really not what an old age pensioner like me should be having to deal with.

Unlike Nelson, Lancashire or Nelson, British Columbia, Nelson, NZ has some particularly fine examples of Victorian architecture such as Fellworth House, Melrose House and Amber House. However, I think we need to distinguish between the physical houses themselves and the traveller oriented businesses that may operate from them. In the case of Fellworth House, I see no problem at all about having a "See" listing for that and a separate "Sleep" listing for the Golden Lodge accommodation business that operates from part of the upper floor there (and, possibly, the Dentist if it were ever decided to list those in destination articles). Same situation with a "See" listing for Melrose Historic House and Gardens that's owned by Nelson City Council and a separate "Eat" (or "Drink") listing) for the privately owned and operated Melrose Cafe business. Those 2 cases are straightforward because the names are sufficiently dissimilar to have two separate listings without it being in any way regarded as touting. Now I would like to get around to making a "See" entry for Amber House - but now your edit has complicated that by meaning I have to choose between deleting the bed and breakfast business you rather misleadingly re-named and creating a "See" listing (which will be nothing to do with that accommodation for travellers B&B business). I also think that the licensed and registered actual trading name that you changed conforms to the spirit of the policy here: Wikivoyage:Spelling#Proper_names. I'd much prefer to get your understanding rather than be accused of edit warring. --W. Franke-mailtalk 21:58, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

All I did was to eliminate ALL CAP TEXT and a promotional phrase with an exclamation point. If the B&B is really called "AMBER HOUSE - at the centre!", the way around the problem is to give as the name `Amber House (officially called "AMBER HOUSE - at the centre!")'. My previous experience is that we don't normally respect corporate ALL CAP naming, except sometimes for acronyms. As for the rest of your ideas, they sound reasonable to me, on the face of it, but are probably better discussed at the article's talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:01, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
Yes, the B&B is really called "AMBER HOUSE - at the centre!", complete with exclamation mark:
To give as the name of the "Sleep" listing: ‘Amber House (officially called "AMBER HOUSE - at the centre!")’ Just compounds the problem since it is even longer and draws undue attention to it (which was, I believe, the main reason we decided not to use black rather than the universal blue colour for listing names externally hyperlinked) and also muddies the distinction between the house itself (which existed before the street in which it is situate was even built, given a name or numbered) and the accommodation business that currently operates from there. If the business stops operating, the house will still exist as a "See" listing in its own right and I'd like to keep the plain and accurate "Amber House" name for that enduring "See" listing that I will write shortly. Did you know that one of my hobbies is Victorian architecture - which is how I started on Wikimedia projects in the first place? --W. Franke-mailtalk 23:44, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
Nope, I didn't know. Perhaps you might consider starting a Victorian architecture page here.
I take your points on the form of the listing, but I think it would be a good idea to get a consensus, so please feel free to copy this exchange to Talk:Nelson (New Zealand) for comments there. I would still argue that my suggested version clarifies things, but I wouldn't buck a consensus to just use the official name. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:49, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
I don't think my publisher would like that (grin). On the proximate topic, I think I'll wait until I start that "See" listing and revert your edit then. At that time the B&B business may have stopped trading and solved the problem and, if not and you still feel the same way, you can raise the issue on the Nelson, NZ discussion page. I also need to declare an interest in that I know many if not all of the owners of these Victorian houses in Nelson from when I was writing my book in 2005-2007. --W. Franke-mailtalk 00:05, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
I don't see it as a problem in the least that you know the owners of the houses in question. You see the problem with the sleep listing, though: The official name of the B&B looks like an advertisement. So somehow, it would be good to have a record available to readers/editors that that's the real official name, even if only by copying this exchange to the relevant talk page. If you don't, perhaps I will, with your permission.
I'd prefer you didn't because I'm one of the minority of people here whose real life identity is relatively trivial to establish. If you wish to revert your change and add an HTML hidden comment, I think that would be more efficient than putting this huge splodge of text over a relatively trivial issue on the Nelson discussion page. I don't think anyone else is likely to gib at this after I finish the various "See" listings (the B&B had its real name in its listing at Wikitravel for more than six years before you thought it was a combination of shouting and a promotional phrase). By the way, what do I call you? "Ikan Kekek" is a bit long to type? --W. Franke-mailtalk 00:41, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
OK, I'll take that suggestion under advisement. That could be a good idea. People call me Ikan or IK here, so those are OK. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:45, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
Done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:51, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, IK. If you like a copy-editing challenge, you might like to cast your eye over this section in my birth town of


eh? I wouldn't know where to begin --W. Franke-mailtalk 22:34, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Sure, Frank, I'll have a look when I have a decent chunk of free time.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:22, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

New York regions

Ikan, I'd appreciate your perspective (as a downstater) on the options I've laid out for adjusting the regions of New York State at Talk:New York (state)#Catskills, Hudson Valley, Capital District. I've put up some maps to help clarify the discussion. LtPowers (talk) 20:42, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, LtPowers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:11, 22 August 2013 (UTC)


"08:15, 23 August 2013 Ikan Kekek blocked with an expiry time of 2 hours (anonymous users only, account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page) (Vandalism)."

Thanks for being observant and giving this IP guidance on using article discussion pages. What's your rationale on not allowing the IP to edit own talk page, please? I would have thought we want to try and encourage this editor to be more collegiate and communicative? --W. Franke-mailtalk 12:45, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I actually think a longer block is in order now but with the ability for it to communicate (if it wants to) why it is making these strange deletions. --W. Franke-mailtalk 12:51, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, Frank. It was because it was just for 2 hours. Although if someone is practicing vandalism, it might be a bad idea for them to be able to edit anything. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)


Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, Ikan Kekek. You have new messages at AndreCarrotflower's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Re: Brazil

Hi there! No worries, I should've probably checked these guidelines before. Thanks for the heads up. Pikolas (talk) 05:06, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

You bet. And don't worry too much about them. The most important thing is to keep putting up good content. Read the Manual of style and linked pages at your leisure.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:17, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Mindo - Ecuador Edits

Hi Ikan, you reverted all my edits on the Mindo page. I did include Links to the website which is for the moment the only site about Mindo and there is NO official site. The site is under development with the purpose of offering not only tourists but also people from Mindo a platform including an events calendar, presentation of the different cultural initiatives and groups in the town, and a classifieds section for better reuse and sharing of resources. This effort is from Mindo for Mindo. It does not advertise and has a unique function to locate the different businesses on a OpenStreetmap. If this does not deserve to be mentioned in a travel guide like Wikivoyage where basically hotels and other businesses leave their advertising and directions then I am pretty disappointed by the site and not inclined to contribute more. I reverted your deletions and would appreciate if you could keep it that way. Greetings from Ecuador —The preceding comment was added by ArndZ (talkcontribs)

Hi. Please sign your posts on talk pages by typing 4 tildes at the end of the posts. So my reply to you is that (a) you need to read the external links guidelines and (b) you need to type this post (with a signature, please) in Talk:Mindo, to try to gain a consensus behind your site being an exception to the rule. We have rules here in order to prevent chaos, as thousands of sites could make claims fairly similar to yours, so if your site should be an exception, it wouldn't be just because you threaten to stop editing unless it is, nor because you say it doesn't advertise (but note that it does take classified advertising). In terms of businesses you see advertising, read don't tout, and please feel free to detout or delete any entries that are in violation of the policy instead of making global complaints about problems the volunteer admins here haven't had a chance to see. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:35, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
You were also touting: You mentioned your site with a link 3 or 4 times in the article. That kind of thing will get reverted every time. And I also note that your only edits (so far) were to tout your site, so threatening to stop editing just makes you sound unfriendly. Have a look at welcome, business owners for some ideas on how to actually help out here. Otherwise, happy trails! Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:48, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Hong Kong/Central

Dear Ikan,

thanks for editing the post for the Ovolo Hotel. I changed again the Price because it was mistake - didnt change the category but I think now it`s Splurge. Also added the 9000 Hong-Kong wide free WiFi Access Points because I guess a lot of travellers could safe a lot of money with this.

I`d like to add the other Ovolo-Hotels also is there something I have to keep in mind or would it work if I include them like the one I already did? Thanks for your support!

Just one additional question: you didnt accept the new "Boutique" category, but I guess a lot of travellers are interesed in Hotels apart from the mainstream ones - as I do when I travel. What do you think about this? —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)

You should just put it in the splurge category and indicate in the description that it's a boutique hotel. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:16, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Ikan, its me again ;-)

you removed the word "free" from our "free happy hour"!? Our "Happy Hour" is really FREE for our guest in all Ovolo Hotels!! the same for our Minibar and our Wifi in our Hotels.

I think you will find it was removed because you are using a non-standard definition of 'happy hour'. It might be better to rephrase it as 'free evening drinks'. Andrewssi2 (talk) 04:27, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi Andrewssi, thanks for your advise. So our Name for this 'free evening drinks' is "free happy hour". What should be the best formulation for this? Maybe: "free evening drinks so called: free happy hour". I fully understand that it shouldn't be written in an advertising style. Thats why my question: What would work align with the policies here? Thanks a lot!
There isn't a policy for this (as far as I know). The problem is that the international definition of 'happy hour' is loosely that you buy one drink and get another one for free. That is what I would expect if I would stay at your hotel (and I stay a lot in Hong Kong). If you would like to offer me free drinks in the evening with no payment, then just call it 'free evening drinks'.
If you REALLY wanted to use the term 'happy hour', then how about: "The hotel offers a version of 'happy hour' where all the drinks are free" ? Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:03, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Sorry for not responding quickly during my travels abroad. Andrew has given you good advice. I'd also say that in the US, Happy Hour generally means that drinks are half price or priced at a particular lower-than-usual price (e.g., $5 shots of whiskey, $2 PBRs or what have you). Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:57, 4 January 2014 (UTC)


Hi! I'm new here in WikiVoyage and you're the first person who send message to me and offer me some help. Nice to meet you! I find you have edited Wikivoyage for a long time. If I do something wrong here. Please feel free to tell me. :-) In addition, do you when Chinese wikivoyage can be in use? It's still in Wikimedia Incubator. --Someone's Moving Castle (talk) 06:53, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I couldn't tell you what the status of the Chinese Wikivoyage is. I'll let you know if I see anything wrong here, though. Meanwhile, I'm really liking your edits. Chinese destinations need a lot of work, so I'm glad to see more work being done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:55, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


A bit harsh for an outline article?. --Inas (talk) 05:10, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

There's a huge rash of these kinds of edits, and I think they're all by the same person, who uses several IPs and never replies to any messages on his/her user talk page or pays any attention to editing summaries. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:14, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
I just tried a friendly message on the IP's page. I predict with great confidence that the message will be ignored, but I hope I'm wrong. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:29, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
In the usual way you'd be right, Inas.
However, I agree that IK is very probably right in this analysis. This character pops up in a huge range and variety of edits (almost certainly from Australian IP's) and scattering various "fun facts" gleaned from Wikipedia. These fun factoids display no local knowledge and to allow them to remain involves a huge amount of double checking - never mind fleshing them out. I wish they'd stop it and communicate too! --W. Frankemailtalk 12:08, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

At first I thought that User talk: was some sort of crazy bot, but I have now discovered 2 good edits among the dozens of empty section headings and copyright infringements he's been inserting, but boy, is it a waste of time trawling through all those nonsense edits. I think he needs to be blocked for longer periods if he/she/it refuses to communicate. To me, it's obvious from the Australian IP and some very finicky English grammar edits that he/she/it actually has a reasonable command of English. Sorry for all your valuable time that he/she/it is wasting. --W. Frankemailtalk 21:37, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, it's pretty frustrating. The user clearly is not a native English speaker, but that doesn't account for his/her complete ignoring of user talk page messages and editing summaries. And this user uses a bunch of different IPs, making blocking pretty ineffective. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:44, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
It is serious though. Now he's breaching the copyright of One weeks block for anonymous users only on the 7 IP addresses he uses, please, I need a rest. --W. Frankemailtalk 02:11, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
That's probably justified. I think I have to deliberate, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:11, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
Okay, I'll just add visitable attractions back. Thanks. --Inas (talk) 05:13, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
Thank you as always, Inas. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:20, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Source recognition

I understand focusing on primary sources... but not on excluding source info. I created a section on the related policy to discuss it. Thanks! Sj (talk) 06:03, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Cool. I'll just mention that it's usually possible to include information about useful links on the talk page of an article if you like. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:20, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Photography usage

Apologies for resizing portrait-oriented photos – I wasn't aware that there were restrictions on making them smaller, as I've seen pages with photos of all sizes. I was trying to match the long edges, so that each image takes the same amount of real estate on the page and none dominates the others. I haven't found a help page yet which clarifies this.

On a related note, I'd like to ask your advice re: Doha. Previously there were several older images of well-known buildings which were deleted apparently due to 'freedom of panorama' violations. From my readings here it seems possible to work around this by uploading locally, as Wikimedia images are hosted in the US which does not have the same restrictions. I could not figure out how to upload my images locally to Wikivoyage, so guessed that uploading directly to Wikimedia Commons was appropriate. Can you advise if this is indeed the correct protocol?

The images in question: Museum of Islamic Arts and Fanar Cultural Center.

Thanks! StellarD (talk) 07:53, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi, StellarD, and thanks again for your wonderful work! I'm not sure what the apologies are for; if you resized photos, you probably had a good reason to do so, and there are no restrictions I know of in making photos smaller; it's just a matter of judgment.
My understanding is that Commons deletes photos of copyrighted buildings and public art, so such photos have to be kept locally on Wikivoyage's servers. Unfortunately, I don't remember how to do that. I hope someone who does comes by to tell us how to do it.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:05, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
Wikivoyage:Non-free content LtPowers (talk) 00:02, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the policy link, LtPowers. The "how-to" was addressed in the Pub. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:11, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
I just read your post on the Pub thread. Thanks for clarifying. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:12, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Inline Links

Hi Ikan Thanks for the guidelines. My reason for adding those links was that someone had added those people (Dadasaheb Phalke, Pt Paluskar) as prominent members from the city of Nashik. While these people are well known to Indians, I felt that non-Indians might find them unfamiliar and therefore unhelpful. Hence I added those links. However, as you say, since the guidelines are such, I will try and add some useful material in the text itself. Thanks, Anannya

Of course. I understand completely. But because we operate on consensus here, and since there's no consensus to allow other-subject Wikipedia links, with about half the people who took part in a discussion about that resolutely opposed, we can't use them. Thanks a lot, Anannya.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:23, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Steve Wicks

I suggest you review an editors complete work before your hair trigger causes you to revert hours of hard work, or are you trying to antagonise contributors into quitting? If that is your intention, please make it clear so that I can email Jimmy Wales: to inform him.

Wicks Steve (talk) 05:49, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

No Sir, I don't want to antagonize you, nor do I want you to quit. I am not aware of your contributions outside of Wikivoyage, and you haven't put anything up on your user page to tell me anything about you (not that you have to). I just react to what I read, and there are consensus guidelines on this site that need to be followed, and avoiding the appearance of touting is one of the more important ones. I pointed you to pages you can read. As I see Ryan said on your user talk page, it's not difficult for you to see the edits I reverted. If you go to the history of any article, you can see any previous version of the article. For example, this is the history page for the Chippenham article. All you need to do is edit the listings to bring them into conformity with our policies, and then put the edited versions of the entries up. Thanks for Jimmy Wales' email address, though.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:24, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your response, I fully understand your concerns regarding the appearance of touting. I didn't feel the need to rectify the first edit prior to you reverting it some hours ago as a simple error made it non visible. It was the instant revert of my second edit that was upsetting, as it had taken quite a number of hours to get right. If you still feel any part of it does not conform, please let me know which part(s) specifically so that I can address it, and for my future reference.

Wicks Steve (talk) 06:33, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I just posted a message on your talk page that I hope explains most of it. Please feel free to ask any question you have, and I'm sorry your early experience on Wikivoyage has been disagreeable. I completely understand why you were upset and alarmed. If my action had irrevocably deleted your work, I would never have done it, but would have sent you the content, instead.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:41, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


Hi Ikan, First of all, i would like to thank you for helping me on the article of ruwais. I was thinking if you could help me on getting a cover photo for the page. Thanks Djsamyak (talk) 14:58, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

You're most welcome, and thanks for creating and putting content into the article! If you mean a pagebanner, I have never learned how to make one, and as far as I can tell, the only photo of Ruwais, UAE that in Wikimedia Commons is the one I posted. Do you live near there or travel there often? If so, perhaps you could take some more photos and one could be made into a pagebanner. Or possibly, the photo I posted could be made into one.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:40, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you and goodbye

Dear Ikan,

before i'm leaving and i wanted to leave you some words. My respect for you is huge and if any word by myself offended you, please accept my sincere apology. I think you are the kindest and best mannered administrator here and i'm amazed how calm and consistently you handle the situation. I'm very bitter that there is no trust in my activities on WV and you have been the only supporter. My bullshit bingo argumentation is purely directed on LtPowers who quotes policy but don't get active.

Reflecting the ongoing discussion, i listened yesterday to Smetana and i hope there will be a future after the current rough waters. All the best for you, jan (talk) 08:02, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm very sorry to see you go. Godspeed to you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:08, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Sorry to see you go Jan. Please seriously re-consider returning in some capacity. --Saqib (talk) 08:10, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Jan, I should add that I understand what you're speaking of. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:36, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


Thank you for dropping the note on my talk page. You refer to discussions about links with sister projects. I wonder if you could put a link as regards where I might find such discussions.Leutha (talk) 11:13, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Sure thing. You'll find extensive discussion at Wikivoyage talk:Sister project links, especially starting at Wikivoyage talk:Sister project links#Inline links to Wikipedia. I would suggest reading through all of it before advancing a new argument.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:22, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Same commuting Ozzie

I fear... --W. Frankemailtalk 17:07, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/ yet another IP from down under with similar edits... ϒpsilon (talk) 07:17, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm actually really curios about this users motivation.. he/she could spend all this time really improving one article rather than spending all their time adding a few words of near zero value to lots of articles. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:46, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
Who knows? This is undoubtedly the same user, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:01, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
And he/she is back again: User_talk:Saqib#Difficult_User --Andrewssi2 (talk) 12:06, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
I have proposed a three day ban here: Wikivoyage:User_ban_nominations#User: --Andrewssi2 (talk) 13:42, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Re: Restaurant listings

I can try to add some descriptions, but I'm not sure how to figure out prices, since it depends a lot on what you order. Should I give a range ($40-70) or try to figure out a hypothetical "standard" meal? -- Ypnypn (talk) 13:35, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Anything is helpful. I've sometimes posted the price of a meal and sometimes (when I could see a clear online menu to remind myself) the range of prices of different categories of items (e.g., Appetizers, Soup, Salad, Mains, Sides, Desserts). Thanks a lot.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:24, 10 October 2013 (UTC)


Hi Ikan Kekek, if you have time, would you (as a native speaker of English, I think) be willing to proof-read the Vianden article? I've expanded the content but it would be good if someone could correct the remaining spelling/grammar mistakes and any other issues they might encounter. There's no hurry, I would just appreciate an extra eye on the article and couldn't find any general request page for proof-reading. Thank you! JuliasTravels (talk) 20:54, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Sure, Julia. I'll have a look when I have a chance. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:29, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
You did a great job! I put in some edits. When a map is added, this could be a good Off the Beaten Path article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:49, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
Well, that was fast service indeed! Thank you. I've been struggling with the geo coordinates and a map, but I can't seem to make it work, so I don't think that's going to happen soon. Fortunately, it's a tiny town and a map is hardly needed. There's almost no way to walk around and not encounter all the sights and restaurants. So I'm comfortable leaving it. JuliasTravels (talk) 09:33, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Ashmore and Cartier

At the best is a place either crawling with para-military Australian customs/border proetetcion personnel or illegal immigrants or Indonesian fishermen - hardly a destination - all i can think of is emergency stops in the event of sunk ships/crashed planes - we dont have any templates for dont go there unless it is to save your life at all? sats (talk) 09:30, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

No, we don't, but I think readers will get the point. Very nice to see you. Apa khabar? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:32, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
Sulit sekali, keterangan di tempat yang lain... sats (talk) 09:35, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
Baiklah. Selamat malam dari New York. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:36, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
goddamm i miss new york!!!!sats (talk) 09:49, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
Let me know if you come for a visit. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:08, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Da Nang

Hey—just a note to acknowledge your revert of the Youtube links added to Da Nang—I guess I got carried away and forgot I was on a Wikimedia project for a bit ;) My bad. Thanks for the oversight and I'll make sure to do better in future! --Dragfyre (talk) 18:55, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh, no need to do a "mea culpa" over this; your impulses were all to the good. And thanks for adding all that great content! Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:57, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Re: The Wikivoyage Barncompass

Thank you for The Wikivoyage Barncompass. Massimo Telò (talk) 08:44, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome! Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:47, 21 October 2013 (UTC)


I could understand the need for the {{Wikipedia}} template to provide attribution for material sourced from Wikipedia (which is necessary to comply with the licensing requirements under the cc-by-sa-3.0 license used by both WV and WP) if there were still some material in the Wikivoyage article that comes from the current version of Wikipedia. However, it seems that was all removed long ago. What's the particular part(s) that still use WP prose (as opposed to re-written facts), please? -- 09:38, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't know, because I haven't checked the Wikipedia article lately. I do know that when that template was put in, there was material borrowed from the Wikipedia article. You're presenting an interesting argument that has not been topical before: Namely, that content borrowed from an earlier, superseded version of a Wikipedia article no longer requires a citation. I actually have no idea whether that's correct or not, as I've never come across such a situation before. If you know for sure this is correct, I will support you in once again removing the template, with the stipulation in Talk:Bohol that there is no longer an evident overlap in content between the current versions of Wikivoyage:Bohol and Wikipedia:Bohol. If you're not completely sure this is correct, it would be a good topic to broach at the Travellers' pub.
Thanks for your thoughtful dialogue and contributions so far. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:48, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Sorry to bump in, just wanted to point out a recent discussion in the Pub regarding that same template: Wikivoyage:Travellers'_pub#placement_of_Template:Wikipedia. JuliasTravels (talk) 10:16, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
So maybe the template is never needed in the article space and should be moved to the talk page for each relevant article? But what about this case? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:25, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Indeed, the in-article template is (in my opinion) never needed. Determining whether any contribution is needed requires some research, however, in order to find if there are no overlapping wordings but also if the "sort" of information (e.g. the choice of which attractions are listed) is sufficiently different. Personally, I'm typically too lazy to find all of that out when there's such a simple solution as just mentioning it in the history. If any of you is confident that there's no content left that requires attribution, just deleting would be okay, but otherwise I'd just give a link to the wp article in the summary, when removing the template. JuliasTravels (talk) 11:50, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Ikan Kekek: I see now that what I wrote was not clear - sorry! My view is that while our article contains any copyrighted material copied from any version of Wikipedia (superseded or otherwise) it may conceivably be appropriate for the template to remain. However, once our article has been re-worded so that it no longer contains exemplars of non-trivial text from any version of Wikipedia then the templated attribution is redundant and should be removed.
I do agree with JuliasTravels that making this judgement can be laborious and challenging and it may be more efficient simply to link to the WP article in the edit summary, when removing the template - which is what I now intend to do. -- 21:04, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, and sorry for being confused about the proper procedures. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:09, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
This has been an educational exchange for me but I do think it is more important to remove the hard-coded active hyperlinks to (the very censorious and dysfunctional) Wikitravel site on the majority of this site's pages if you ever want to get any visitors from search engines like Google. Most searchers don't go past the first two or three results you know. -- 22:25, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I'm very much aware of this problem. Unfortunately, unless Wikimedia Legal changes their minds about what kind of notification needs to be on the affected pages, there may not be much we can do about it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:27, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Where may I read this (mythical?) legal opinion, please? On the face of it, this (mythical?) legal opinion seems to fly in the face of the requirements of the cc-by-sa-3.0 license used by Wikitravel, Wikivoyage and Wikipedia unless this was a (secret) clause in the out of court settlement with Internet Brands. Do they realise that this (mythical?) strange decision dooms the English language Wikivoyage to be inferior to Wikitravel in most search engine results forever (or at least until search engines value "mirror" sites as highly as "original" sites - which probably amounts to forever!). -- 23:10, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
I seriously don't think this is mythical. I understand that it was a part of the out-of-court settlement. I don't have the info at my fingertips right now and probably won't have time soon to research where you can read this verbatim. My suggestion is, if you can't find it in the Travellers' Pub, please post there and ask. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:14, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Tanjung Puting

Hi Ikan, hope you're good. I noticed you marked this article patrolled but as far I know tour listings and agencies are usually not allowed on this wiki except in some rare cases. No doubt, you know best how this site works and well aware of policies but I need some clarifications please. --Saqib (talk) 13:19, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Orangutan tours seem like value added to me. Do you think you can just as easily see orangutan on your own? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:36, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
Ops, I thought Orangutan is name of a place. --Saqib (talk) 18:20, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Premature (?) "sweeping"/cover up

Just in case you missed this? -- 07:38, 1 November 2013 (UTC)


Hello, Ikan Kekek! Thanks for helping me out here. This link seems more informative than another official English link I found. Also, thanks for linking me to the relevant policy! So, if my understanding is correct, only links to primary sources are allowed? Rotideypoc41352 (talk) 02:57, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that's correct. The reason for the policy is that, although there are sometimes unofficial links that are more informative — so in those cases, it can be accurately argued that including them would serve the traveller — it was very hard to police unofficial external links when they used to be allowed, and the result was a bunch of promotional links and too much time spent trying to evaluate links. You can see discussions on Wikivoyage Talk:External links that helped us to get where we are now. Everything is subject to change if the consensus changes in the future, though. Best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:22, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

It seems I may have misjudged you

If so, let's shake hands and start afresh. Tell me if you want any of my previous comments stricken. -- 04:46, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Totally up to you. Either way, there's no problem with our continuing to work together to try to better the site.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:10, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Vienna unfortunate district split

Hello Ikan Kekek,

The Vienna district split is unfortunately really an artifical split, but a small change - Moving one district in the current split - would already help us to better sort districts that kind of belong together. Could you please chimme in at the latest section Talk:Vienna.

Thank you very much! Best greetings, --Axisstroke (talk) 18:38, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Axisstroke. I don't think I can be of much help in this instance, because I am really unfamiliar with Vienna.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:56, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi Ikan Kekek,
Ok, thank you was worth a try. (: Best, --Axisstroke (talk) 02:35, 8 November 2013 (UTC)


I noticed you have placed and withdrew a user ban nomination for Tony1. I personally have had no interaction with him, although attempting to be neutral and just looking at his contribution history it seems that he went off the rails on September 16th and has only been combative since. I would say a long ban would actually be appropriate since the negativity on the Travellers' pub is not helping the site in any way and is making it unpleasant to be here. Andrewssi2 (talk) 10:44, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

The only thing is, it might be more effective to ignore the trolling for a few days. If it doesn't stop soon, I'll surely reinstate the user ban nomination. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:01, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
OK --Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:15, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
Actually, a user ban nomination has been put up, so feel free to comment on it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:48, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

What do I do next at El Camino Real?

I just finished all 21 missions at El Camino Real (4 received entries for the first time, and all 21 entries were improved in some manner). What do I do now to make it a proper itinerary? I have the beginnings of a seven-day itinerary (three missions a day) on the talk page...are there other things I should do? Purplebackpack89 19:42, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

This article is shaping up nicely! Make sure you link the name of every town. I think it would also be good to give very brief overviews of each town, summarizing the general scene in terms of other things to see and do and what's available to eat, drink, and for sleeping. In no way should you recapitulate what's in the linked town/city guides, though; I would keep those overviews extremely brief (probably 1-2 sentences per city/town). I see Ryan gave the example of Route 66, which I probably would have given, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:23, 9 November 2013‎ (UTC)

Re: offical tourism site

Hi you messaged me asking if a site I listed was an official tourist one. I take it you changed it already as I can't seem to see the link on any of the likely pages to change it myself. Sorry about the misunderstanding and thanks for the feedback. —The preceding comment was added by Travelling ali (talkcontribs)

Hello. I don't remember changing it. Someone else may have done so.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:50, 11 November 2013 (UTC)


See my talkJustin (koavf)TCM 05:17, 12 November 2013 (UTC)


Once upon a time, some children found a kitten. They didn't know whether it was a girl kitten or a boy kitten, and they didn't know how to find out, so they sat for some time and tried to puzzle it out. Finally, remembering something learned in school, one of the children declared, "I know, let's vote!"

So that's pretty much what I think of the claims of "consensus" r/t Wikivoyage talk:Time and date formats‎‎ you made on my talk page. Better to ask what the issues are. As I see it, this is an international website, written by international editors, for an international audience, who we want to participate in the writing of the wiki as they travel. This means they will come to the project speaking and writing several varieties of English, all standard. So how to accommodate all. That is the real question, not which variety of English will claim a temporary "consensus" and push out the other varieties.

Whether your consensus existed at one time or not, it clearly does not exist now. I have removed the entry pending a new consensus.

Regards, --Neotarf (talk) 06:12, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

That's a great warning on the dangers of democracy, Neotarf. However, as I understand the way consensus used to work here, if we have something in our MoS that has been that way (however, stupid or illogical) for a long while, a new clear consensus is required to change it. ie, it shouldn't be thrown out or suspended while we discuss the new proposition - because that discussion may take a long while and there is a risk of damage in the meanwhile? --118.93nzp (talk) 06:32, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
Exactly. And Neotarf, you needn't try to convince me, of all people, that your proposed changes are good. I proposed them before you did! And in the ensuing discussion, it became clear that my point of view was outnumbered. And as far as I'm concerned, that's probably the end of the story. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:52, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
Oh dear, did I break teh wiki? But let me point out that "democracy" is not the same as "consensus", in fact it's the complete opposite. "Democracy" presupposes a vote, and therefore winners and losers, with eternal acrimony. A "consensus" implies an !vote, that is a vote that is not really a vote, but a discussion based on issues, not numbers. An effort is made to reach a conclusion that everyone can live with. In all fairness, what I am advocating probably comes closer to "anarchy", but in this situation, that might not be a Bad Thing. --Neotarf (talk) 06:57, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
Maybe and maybe not, but this site is not going to stop running based on consensus and embrace anarchy. If you would like to start your own anarchic travel site, I promise to check it out when it's up and running. :-)
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:03, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
So where is this alleged consensus discussion of which you speak. Might there be diffs? --Neotarf (talk) 09:54, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
It's been around for nearly nine years but I don't think Huttite is still with us (I can't remember him editing for several years now). Nurg might remember (apart from Evan himself who rarely honours us with his presence, he's been here the longest). --118.93nzp (talk) 10:12, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
As User:118.93nzp points out, a consensus is required to change a policy. When the policy was adopted by a previous consensus is something that can always be researched, but I consider it somewhat beside the point. If you look at very recent discussion on the change I attempted to make in the date format, you will see that the majority of people discussing it were against the change. As I said, I regret that, but that's the way it is. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:22, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
So according to the above link [23] there was never any discussion, and never any consensus. It was just something that was migrated from WT, that some guy from New Zealand put up there. Presumably he speaks BrE. It's a good start, especially since he seems to be a tech-type guy and not a linguist, but there are other perfectly correct and internationally recognized formats and no reason on earth they should not be valid here. -Neotarf (talk) 01:58, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Yes, that seem broadly correct, but really Nurg needs to come in on this because he really started the whole ball rolling. The fact that there was no discussion might mean that nobody ever noticed it and it might mean that everybody at the time thought it was a great idea. I know I thought it reasonable at the time (unlike the ugly AM/PM but, heh it was very US centric in the early days and I never felt fired up enough about anything like that to register an account and comment - although I did very occasionally comment from an IP, I always felt nobody took IP editors comments seriously and, after a while, just gave up bothering and went back to intermittent copy edits with the occasional content contribution if I was fairly sure things were going to be quiet for a bit at wrok.).
What I do find strange is the sudden hatred of relative sizing in thumbnails. Nobody ever objected or batted an eyelid for years and then, suddenly when Frank starts using them (and he certainly wasn't the first to use that upright syntax), they are the work of the devil and the reverse argument is used: because nobody explicitly sanctioned them, they're forbidden until a consensus forms to use them! Whatever happened to pf ? --118.93nzp (talk) 02:09, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Huttite put that in the policy, no-one disagreed, there was no discussion, therefore there was consensus by passive agreement. But the policy is not fossilised. Ikan opened a discussion - if there is a consensus for change, the policy will change. If there is no consensus for change, the status quo will remain. Nurg (talk) 04:12, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

You seem like "Pfft, Z82 Retrocade does not exist!"

You seem like you don't believe that Z82 Retrocade exists, it just opened in June 2013! —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)

Hi. Please sign your posts on talk pages by typing ~~~~. It's always good to remind people of what you're referring to, but I believe the issue is that I deleted a totally unexplained listing. If you want to list something, give a description in the listing so that people know what you're talking about. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:07, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
I see that User:118.93nzp did put up a real listing for this arcade. That's what I was looking for. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2013 (UTC)


I didn't revert your spelling correction. I added geodata, and unfortunately the old spelling was in the dialog. It was a cross-edit. -- Mark (talk) 13:48, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

I understand, Mark. Thank you.
Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:32, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the Heads Up

Hello Ikan,

Being new to Wikivoyage I must have missed the external links article regarding the site's policy. Thanks for the info; I've read over the article and I'll make sure the guidelines be followed.

Good day,

Minivation (talk) 00:49, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

You're very welcome. There's nothing intuitive about this one, and there's been plenty of discussion about whether to allow more Wikipedia links, but there's always been a majority against inline Wikipedia links, to date, and discussions were fairly recently deadlocked and suspended for now. I moved your post to the bottom of the page, which is where new posts in a thread customarily go.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:55, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Ypsilon's essay

I'm going to hold my tongue regarding what was said in that essay, only because I think I'd need to hear the opinions of some other, more knowledgeable Wikivoyagers before I were able to judge how likely the extremely serious allegations made there are to be true.

Nonetheless, even if none of those speculations check out, the suggestion that the drama here might lead us to be evicted from the WMF family deeply concerns me. For my own peace of mind: in your opinion, how much danger are we really in of that?

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:45, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea. And I don't know if the essay is accurate or not, but it sure is interesting. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:20, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
To be blunt, I think it's a huge conspiracy theory. The labs part is flawed; only *hashes* of passwords were revealed. --Rschen7754 23:18, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
And nobody ever gets evicted from the Wikimedia family. But there are certain Wikimedia sites that nobody goes to, because they are so corrupt (en.wiktionary, en.wikinews, hr.wikipedia come to mind). I fear that en.wikivoyage is going to make that list, really soon. --Rschen7754 23:19, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
If that's the case, we should do whatever we reasonably can to avoid such a fate. I don't perceive corruption here, though; what I perceive is that we're sometimes too hard on new or innovative users. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:29, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
[24] is the sort of stuff I'm worried about. As far as corruption, I know we're not corrupt, but it could easily look that way to an outsider. (points I hope to make in my essay) --Rschen7754 04:02, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Very regrettable. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:04, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
How do we solve that, though? Seligne's revert had nothing to do with his administrator status, so that seems a red herring. This is a wiki, after all; sometimes your edits get undone if someone disagrees with them. Isn't that part and parcel of wiki-participation? Even in this specific case, we do frequently undo good-faith edits that nonetheless cause a degradation in tone or clarity, though the preference is to incorporate the added information elsewhere or in a better way. Certainly we don't want to scare good editors off, but collaborative editing requires a little bit of a thick skin and a willingness to defend changes you wish to make. LtPowers (talk) 21:31, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Pardon me if I'm wrong, but I do believe Seligne is a woman. That aside, I think part of the answer is that sometimes, we should hold back on reverts and instead engage people in dialogue. And when I said "engage," I mean hear out their views. Being a bit brutally honest, I don't see where Seligne fully did that, but I think there could be a language issue, since Seligne's English is excellent, but it's not her mother tongue. I think that when there are reverts based on content, we should really try to explain the reasons for them, as in why we feel like the changes are unfair or less accurate or something. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:59, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
Good evening. No, I do not think it is probable that that is actually going to happen. I do find it utterly disturbing that some people, most notably the person(s?) behind the Tony account have openly showed such hatred towards WV. I stumbled upon that individual in June and what I read back then was unlike anything I've ever seen here on WV/WT. I really did not like what I saw - most of that took place at Peter's talk page. Let's say I very quickly got a very negative perception of that person. Yes, I was also aware of the Frank/Alice story back then. Because I happen to have a habit to check out the Recent changes I also followed Frank's contributions to the site up to his voluntary Wikibreak a month and a half ago. When was the next time Tony paid us a visit? He suddenly emerged to comment on a "Frank thread" in the pub - out of the blue. Following his doings for the couple of days he was here wasn't fun to see. I also noticed the first thing Frank did when he came back. A look at the involved people's interest in similar topics and above all their attitude made me very uneasy. When three of our best contributors soon after just disappeared with Peter asking a very strange question in the tourist office and I got the message of the hacked password hashes almost the same day - I felt even more uneasy. And started to dig more and more into everything. What I found I wrote in the essay. Doing this does not entertain me the slightest. This was one of the reasons why I reverted the essay. Frank seems to have noticed it in his sandbox, though. Another was that I cannot prove anything, I can just give you the links and tell you my opinion. While I suspect I'm wrong in some of those allegations, I would love to see some proof. I cannot find any myself. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a someone that keeps coming back again and again and again and again doing something people do not agree with and do not listen to other people's advice isn't really a "troll" in the traditional sense that he or she is merely here to f*** with us for fun but instead that they try to accomplish something. Just think of what positive things this energy could've been used for here on WV instead. Then came the infamous Signpost. And now we have this 118 person who seems to know a whole lot about everything and everyone despite having been here for just a short while, defending users against allegations that in some cases haven't even been made. And I think I've heard the tone he uses a couple of times before. I hadn't really said the person a word before his check user request, merely commented on the Time and Date talk page, where I used an abbreviation he didn't know in a message to Ikan, he asked me what it meant (I would've used Google), I answered and he thanked. Yeah, and on his talk page I told other people how I find the coordinates for places. And now this check user request - what for? - and exactly what does he want to accomplish by it? I mean, WTF? Seriously? Why me? Aside of what I've already written in the check user thread about the Spendrupsforall account, the person behind this account has used it to commented on topics I'm not very interested in (SEO, improvement of Google ranking, the legal aspects of removing the WT notice at the bottom of articles etc.), and that is because I do not have enough knowledge about the topics to have something reasonable to say about them. To conclude I'd have much better things to do, both here and elsewhere, than to deal with 118 & co., but I want to put and end to this horror movie once and for all. This weekend I haven't managed to do much of anything that I use to do here on WV but I've still developed a kind of a editing window phobia... ϒpsilon (talk) 17:58, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, Ypsilon. Do you have some suggestions for what to do from now on? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:38, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Right now - let’s just concentrate on our regular “job” here on WV. That’s what I’m going to do, at least until the next time something negative pops up. This is also something that needs to be implemented better sooner than later. Admitting that I could (and should?) have replied to 118 in a less fierce way. I think it would also be good to keep an eye on the following issues of the Signpost. ϒpsilon (talk) 16:44, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
That's sage advice.
"'And now we have this 118 person who seems to know a whole lot about everything and everyone despite having been here for just a short while..."
I don't really mind you being rude - or even being ruder via other Sockpuppet accounts. What I do mind is 2 things:
1) Sloppy analysis. Either that or you seem to have been highly selective in your investigation. We see that all the time in police forces throughout the world. The detective has a hunch and then only investigates and collates material and evidence that supports that initial hunch. That way lie convictions that are overturned on appeal when someone (hopefully a more competent cop) does a proper investigation. Even worse, of course, is when, if the bad cop can't find the evidence to support/prove their initial pet theory, they start fabricating/ planting it. You'd be surprised how often that happens - not necessarily for "bad" motives, but because the cop just "knows" a particular crim is guilty of something, but has proved too smart so far to get caught and convicted.
So what made you overlook/discount this edit Oopsilon - where I stated quite clearly that, although I've only just created an anonymous account, I've been editing (and reading) both on WT and subsequently WV for years as an IP - sloppiness or a particular axe to grind?
2) Unfair "enforcement". Obviously our admins are not a disciplined force subject to guidelines and standing orders, but it is quite amazing how Frank gets banned for 3 days for posting an apposite image, Tony for a similar period for arguing rationally and doggedly (albeit very annoyingly and abrasively) over a relatively trivial matter of style, Alice is permabanned for (what exactly? Just being Alice and silent as far as I can tell, although maybe there were equally nonsensical reasons as the conspiracy theory you're peddling put forward in private fora). You (and your puppets/tag teamers) come out with vitriolic and sloppy hatchet jobs on me and my tag team of socks/non-users of US English and what happens? Sundry admins don't bat an eyelid except to recommend the personal attacks for everyone to read. Do the same admins continually banging on about sock puppetry and alternative accounts then bust a gut to arrange an extraordinary check-user request to confirm their suspicions? Do they hell! --118.93nzp (talk) 05:47, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to avoid discussing your specific points and suggest that everyone else does the same. The only thing I'll say is that constructive attitudes and edits are always the antidote to any suspicions (founded or unfounded, and I have taken no position on whether these are founded or unfounded, only interesting) or bad feelings toward anyone. And one other thing: I've got a much thicker skin than many other people here, but no one user should be considered more important than the site, meaning that if anyone (I repeat: anyone) does things that have the effect of causing several really good editors who contribute a lot of great content to leave the site, the terms of their presence should be open to question.Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:55, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
Wrong way to go in my opinion. We shouldn't be in the business of pandering to a few thin skinned prima donnas. When we had a small cadre of super- productive editors (PeterFitzgerald was one, you're another) that might have been a productive and utilitarian (if rather unethical) stance. Now we're a WMF project with the potential to have an order of magnitude more editors and readers, the better way would be to have clearly defined standards of conduct and consensus finding even handedly applied to all, however irritating (or majestic) their contributions. Otherwise, can we have a list published of these thin-skinned and too easily annoyed "really good editors who contribute a lot of great content" so that they can be tiptoed around and treated like unexploded ordinance? --118.93nzp (talk) 06:23, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
Your point makes sense, though I think the truth is in the middle, in that really good editors don't actually grow on trees, especially for this project. In terms of the more clearly defined standards, they are being worked on and will be up and running soon. I'll say this, though: I might wish that everyone would have relatively thick skin, but the fact is, many people don't, either for cultural or/and personal reasons, and will simply up and leave at the first sign of what they consider disrespect. And I think that does call for a bit of sensitivity from everyone. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:36, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
Let's close on that note of agreement then. You're an intriguing character; like Ryan, much of what you write in these project pages makes entirely good sense and I can thoroughly agree with most of it - it's just that sometimes your judgements are spectacularly poor and strategically potentially disastrous for this entire project. I'd love to meet you one day - I suspect we'd both be shocked. --118.93nzp (talk) 06:53, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
I never claim to be perfect. We all should just do the best we can and remember that in the end, this is just a website, and unless we're blithely advising people to do spectacularly dangerous things, it's very unlikely that anyone will live or die based on anything that goes on here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:07, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

A barncompass for you!

Barncompass.png The Wikivoyage Barncompass
For not only your continued willingness to engage in the increasingly dirty work of Wikivoyage policycrafting, but also doing so in a manner that consistently balances fairness with tolerance and open-mindedness. AndreCarrotflower (talk) 07:52, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
That's very sweet of you, Andre. I try my best, as indeed you do.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:56, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
Well very deserved. I must say you're one of the best among us. Keep it up Mick! --Saqib (talk) 20:11, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, Saqib. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:04, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Hoi An

I fail to understand why you do not consider My Son one of the things to do in Hoi An. It is the major thing to do. As a traveler, I find it unconscionable, not only that I have to rely on Lonely Planet to tell me this, but that when I try to correct it in the guide, you delete it. Twice.

If there is further information about My Son, don't you think it would be better to link to it from the Hoi An article than to delete it from that article? --Neotarf (talk) 12:42, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't think you understand. It is already linked from the Hoi An article, in the "Go next" section at the end. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:46, 19 November 2013 (UTC)


Would you mind putting a word in on the ongoing debate between me and Saqib on this thread? I know exactly what my position is, but I don't want it to appear as if I'm picking on him. :) -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:38, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:42, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Prague tours center

Hello, thank you for the explanation and sorry for my attitude. And first at all, I would like to say that I am not the owner of the mentioned companies, I'm just webmaster.

I spoke to the company owner and I told him that if he wants to be placed on this wiki site, then he must have a service with great benefit to the tourist. He wrote me back that offers free services which tourists could take a free and I have put it into the text. I'm just not sure categories. —The preceding comment was added by Platform.www (talkcontribs)

Hi. Please sign your posts on talk pages by typing~~~~, as it's easier to follow discussion that way. In any case, tours that fall under the exception criteria shown at the tour policy page would go under "Do," but just because a tour is free doesn't automatically mean that it should be listed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:22, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Platform.www (talk) 20:03, 24 November 2013 (UTC) I think that this is free without hidden conditions, of course, if some person comes to the Prague tourist center, than will communicate with him and try to sell him some other services, but it is not mandatory.

Romantik Manoir Carpe Diem, De Haan

According to and Google Maps, there is a hotel in De Haan called "Romantik Manoir Carpe Diem". I'm not sure how you want to handle it. It was not my entry. —The preceding comment was added by TheTrolleyPole (talkcontribs)

So it sounds like I would have lost my bet. I'd insert the full name of the hotel, then. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:41, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Done. Thanks for letting me know that I got this one wrong. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:45, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Chinese Wikipedia link deletions

Hi Ikan, I was actually wondering about the Wikipedia links in Chinese_phrasebook (I didn't put them there). Thanks for resolving that so quickly. Andrewssi2 (talk) 05:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Absolutely. I didn't like deleting them, but I don't think they're a good exception to current policy. I also added a phrase at the end of the "Basics," which I hope you can insert characters and proper tone notation for. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:58, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Abbots Langley

Thanks for upgrading Abbots Langley to 'Usable' status! I've just added a bit more info on getting in and around and was wondering if you could give me any tips on how to make the article better and maybe get it to 'Guide' status, or does it just need more content? I've come from OpenStreetMap so I'm pretty good at adding data but not so good at actually talking about it :p. Any help would be much appreciated. Cheers. Alux (talk) 22:43, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Alux, and thanks for doing such a great job! I think that the only thing the article really needs for Guide status is prices in "Eat" listings. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:54, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Awesome, I'll start taking notes when I visit them. Thanks. Alux (talk) 23:03, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Friday 13th

Hmmm, I still pine for a good walk on the lower west side trying to work out which no longer existing piers were the ones my father uesed to go for his cross atlantic trips. New York new york, indeed.

The issues for the quietness - another place another time. I realised the best way to get back into the editing was to do some bare bones itinerary items for western australia based on the main highways.

Hope to simply add content after getting some very very negative feedback from some australian eds about this site. My way of considering the status of somethin akin to being a child and told leave the place tidier than you found it of something totally unrelated. Namo tassa bhagavato.... the buddhist mantras for equanimity come flooding back... bugger the negative karma, just doing it instead... Trust all is well sats (talk) 09:23, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

sheesh synchronicity bit spooky, sultanahmet was one of my favourite parts of the big world tour four years ago, and in the last day or so have just re-acquainted with one of the villians of my very short stay there. sats (talk) 09:26, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
I have yet to visit Turkey, but everyone I know except for my aunt who's either from there or has visited loves it. My aunt had a compound fracture on a hike up a hill and had to be carried down, so she has a special reason for not having good memories of Turkey, but that kind of thing could have happened anywhere that was hilly.
I think things are improving on this site, with some new excellent content being added by new editors. We'll see how things develop. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:33, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
well an interesting start to the afternoon, foreign text and yogya promotion... sats (talk) 09:25, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Yeah. And back to grading final papers for me this early morning. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:30, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Australian alert

if you're not tracking him already... --118.93nzp (talk) 09:33, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

I was, and I'm definitely suspicious. Thanks, 118. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:01, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Too much Xmas pud?

Have you been helping yourself to too much brandy butter?

Why are you weirdly suggesting that registered editors are not free to have their table of contents exactly the way they want it on their own user talk page, please? -- 07:50, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

I already posted about this on a user talk page I believe you have access to. Anyway, I did misread the history of that user talk page and regret the hassle. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:52, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Eh, no worries. Coincidentally, i've already read this answer you've given to 210's inquiry, so i understood what had happened even without your latest (and direct) explanation. Small things like this can be good at times, particularly if they interrupt a long-established routine: this one helped to remind me to cope with the unexpected, and never forget to AGF. Happy editing. -- Jokes_Free4Me (talk) 08:36, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Right back at you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:53, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Your revert Las Vegas Elvis Picture

Hi Ikan Kekek, did you see this ugly pic? You only can see someone from behind 100 feet away, I´m sure there are better pics of Las Vegas and of famous Elvis impersonators. Greetings --Bernello (talk) 11:16, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Bernello, I added it there half a year ago and I have personally removed it now. I put the pic there because I wanted to show that it's very common to stumble upon people dressed up like Elvis, people from movies etc. when walking in LV. I do have some better pictures of them too, but didn't upload them because earlier on WTravel uploading pictures of recognizable people (in this case the impersonator) was a quite big no-no. ϒpsilon (talk) 11:23, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
It sounds like this has been resolved. Bernello, if you had criticized the photo as ugly and a poor example of an Elvis impersonator in your editing summary, my reaction would have been different. Best to both of you, Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:30, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Hi Ypsilon, Hi Ikan Kekek , thanx for your answers, you are always welcome with better pics, Greetings --Bernello (talk) 11:38, 28 December 2013 (UTC)


I have proposed some changes in KL's structure. Not sure, whether you are the right person to ask... :) How are things going here? I have heard about some community problems here. So I am a bit concerned. But due to lack of time I haven't been able to follow everything here.... Have a nice transition to the new year 2014.. Greetings from Germany. -- DerFussi 09:46, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Happy Holidays and A Happy New Year Fussi. --Saqib (talk) 10:11, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes indeed. And also to you and your family, Saqib. And by the way, I'll be in Munich from January 1-17 and Berlin from January 18-25. I think those suggested changes to the KL structure sound perfectly reasonable. I should say that I haven't been in KL since 2003, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:16, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
Berlin? I live in Cottbus (just 1,5 hours by train)..... Time to meet? If you want of course and if you have time .... -- DerFussi 10:57, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Saqib. Best wishes to you and your family. -- DerFussi 10:59, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure whether I'll have time in Berlin, but it's certainly possible, and we can be in touch and see. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:15, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Australian IP vandal


Andrewssi2 and myself have drafted a possible solution to the Australian IP vandalism. Given that it involves a rangeblock, it'd probably be best to get as much community input as possible before going forward with it. You've been front and center in this struggle, so your approval/alternate suggestions would be highly valuable indeed.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 07:20, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


Firstly I want to thank you for your correction to my mistakes. Then could you explain me in which section can I write about Iseo's events? Thanks --Lkcl it (talk) 17:16, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Certainly. You can include events in the "Do" section. If you like, you can create a subsection for them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:38, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Main articles

On wp en and here, I have a basic principle, I used to avoid them like the plague. A they attract atttention seekers who like to do their little do dos on them to more or less say look i did my doo doo here style editing, and also they tend to get too big in size others want to make them even bigger...

I have come across an article which most of what I find I considered complete and utter crap in almost every second sentence - it seems that because voyage does not require due diligence over opinion, all it needs is a few smart asses from somewhere who might not have even been there to actually completely mis-describe a location... I am wondering in my peripatetic wanderings through the essence of the psyche of voyage whether the lack of what we have on wp en - WP:V and WP:N - might also be a very basic flaw here.

Intellectually I have serious misgivings about less professional textual renditions about tourist locations that I find regularly in the paper version of information in my town of origin, but the voyage version makes me wonder where or how voyage might even take stock of the issues of its own content. Thinking aloud as I venture into my home town again. It may well have been hammered out already somewhere either in the previous mode or the current mode, but I have obviously missed the conversation. sats (talk) 01:46, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Sats. By main articles, do you mean country-level articles? I think the solution to the problem you've described is for people who know places better to correct things. For example, there's no way that utter bullshit about New York City could stand; however, crap about Bamako might be hard to discover, as we probably lack editors who are very familiar with Bamako. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:52, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Almost every second sentence in Perth is either wrong (we had recent editor try to discuss snow in Perth, which is outright bizarre) or slewed with innacuracies that creep in with generalisations that seem to be ok, but really add up... and then in wp en we talk about wp:undue - someone obviously got very keen down the article about nude bathing, it has not been discussed publicly here for any reason in perth for years and is a non topic - and the emphases in some sections on things seems really out of kilter... I dont want to re-write the whole article, but parts leave me flabbergasted sats (talk) 01:58, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
And repetition - overdoing it about isolation - in the end so what? - but 3 - 5 times... sats (talk) 02:00, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
[Edit conflict:]If you would rather not spend the time rewriting the article, I completely understand, but please list the inaccuracies on Talk:Perth to give guidance to others. I'm sympathetic, of course, but I haven't been to Perth and would rather that someone like you, who knows the city, would edit content for accuracy.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:02, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Yeah hard to know where to start or finish on such an issue, thanks for listening. sats (talk) 02:06, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Any time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:19, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
instant karma - exactly what the current discussion has emanated - an IP asserting from an oggle search and leaving nothing to verify as such. pity someone in voyages history hadnt thought about wp en's WP:V policy, that would leave a few of the wilder claims (weasel words specially) lying around on the edge of a cliff so to speak... sats (talk) 02:38, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Sats, if you feel like we need to discuss verifiability, please start a thread in the Pub. I don't think we want to require footnotes, but it is indeed a problem when people make stuff up. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:45, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
We don't need to require footnotes, but at the same time if someone questions the accuracy of information it should be removed pending clarification - we have always erred on the side of caution when it comes to misinformation. -- Ryan • (talk) • 02:48, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Agreed, Ryan. I just made a comment to similar effect in Talk:Perth. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:50, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Another thorn in the toe

Abbreviations - presumably my edit there is more appropriatel located than the pub? trust it is so sats (talk) 06:03, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Depends whether people pay attention to Wikivoyage talk:Abbreviations or not. I noticed the edit that set you off, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:06, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
I get your drift, oh well it is off to the pub we go... sigh sats (talk) 06:09, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Papi Hills - Upcoming dam

There is a dam which is going to be constructed soon . The construction was stopped or is running slowly due to lot of difficulties .Check out W:Polavaram_Project . --Pavithrans (talk) 02:51, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

I see. That would be "dam under construction." But unless it's already interesting to look at, it should not be listed and probably shouldn't even be mentioned. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:58, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
I am really not sure if it is interesting or not , its a dam stuck under controversy . The dam when finished would submerge large portion of tribal dwellings , at the same time the dam would give drinking waters and help lot of farmers . --Pavithrans (talk) 04:50, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
That sounds like a news story, probably something not to even mention until it's complete or at least far enough along to have dislocated people. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:00, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Question on map usage

I would like to know the wiki policy of Openstreet map usage . Can I atleast take some screenshots and put them up ? I remember Frankfurt used a lot of Mapquest maps . Can you point me to some help articles ? I would like to use them in Khammam. --Pavithrans (talk) 04:54, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Pavithrans. You can look at Wikivoyage:Mapmaking Expedition and Wikivoyage talk:Mapmaking Expedition, plus Wikivoyage:How to draw a map and Wikivoyage talk:How to draw a map for some relevant information and discussion of static maps, and Wikivoyage:Dynamic maps Expedition and its talk page for dynamic maps. The brief version is that two types of maps are used here: Static maps, which are drawn in Wikivoyage style (see Wikivoyage:How to draw a map), and dynamic maps (see Wikivoyage:Dynamic maps Expedition), which as far as I can tell always use Mapframe. Sadly, Mapframe is having problems right now (see Wikivoyage:Travellers' pub#Dynamic map problems and the linked discussions: Wikivoyage talk:Dynamic maps Expedition#Sorry to bother the Dynamic map team again... and Wikivoyage talk:Dynamic maps Expedition#Problems with mapframe.
If all of this is as clear as mud to you, perhaps someone else may be able to clear things up a bit. I've never created any online map, myself. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:10, 29 January 2014 (UTC)


Hi, Ikan, and sorry for my bad english. "Calvaries" is a category of Wikipedia Commons, defined there as "monumental public crucifix, sometimes encased in an open shrine, which may include figures surrounding the Crucifixion itself such as Mary, the apostles of Jesus, or other saints and symbolic figures." These sculptures are numerous in very catholic regions such as Brittany. Perhaps another english word would be convenient ?

All the best.Moulinsart (talk) 07:09, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I think I'd just call those crucifixes, or possibly crucifixion scenes, if they show figures other than Christ on the cross. For example, this, called "Calvaire" in French, is clearly a crucifix. Just about every one of the images I see on the first page of Commons results for Commons:Category:Calvaries is either a crucifix or a crucifixion scene, except for the Stations of the Cross and one or two crosses without a figure of Jesus on them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:26, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


I was wanting to send you an email - but then I realised you didn't have it enabled, so I will have to be a bit circumspect and stilted in what I say here.

I've enjoyed your edits over several years now and, despite my crusty tone at times over the course of the last few months when I've not been editing as an IP, it's been nice to know that there's been someone hovering in the background to correct my worst howlers.

I must admit that my original intention of creating a Wikivoyage account for the first time was to have some fun at Alice/Tony/etc's expense - finicky ndash and non-breaking space and all that.

Unfortunately, the more I tried to ape her style the more I became convinced of the correctness of her position in many respects. I made my peace with her a long time ago and my original intention was to fade back into the obscurity of copyediting from the random IP's that Vodafone New Zealand assigns to me. However, I doubt that will be possible now - for one thing I've been promoted and so will have a fixed IP shortly - for another my various hobby-horses of increasing readership, honouring the preferences that readers choose and trying to make sure that there is a good visual experience for people using a variety of screen sizes, resolutions and connection speeds/tariffs have, unfortunately, become bêtes noires for some of our most dogged and combative editors here.

I must admit I've definitely now realised how much of an advantage it is to have your own account - especially being able to "Thank" people quickly and having your own watch list.
My original intention was to quit using this account after the first 500 edits but I'd better stop real soon now because I see I'm in danger of breaking the three thousand mark now in just the 3 months since I made the first non-IP edit at 1:31am GMT, on November 8, 2013 (that's not including another few thousand using various IP edits during that same period).
If I can't manage to stay away, is there a procedure for creating another account without the same wrong-headed allegations of sock puppetry (my own fault, really) dogging me for ever? -- 04:28, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to say more and put you more fully in the picture, but can't be any more forthcoming in public due to the sensibilities of my own family and a duty of confidentiality to others.

All the best! --118.93nzp (talk) 04:24, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Understood, 118. I think the way to avoid any accusations of sockpuppetry is to state openly what accounts or IPs you have previously used. I will say that I do expect to see you here again, under some guise or other. Meanwhile, however long it may be, enjoy your break and your life, and thanks for all the wikignoming you've done.
And as we say in Yiddish, Zei gezunt! (Be healthy!)
Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:55, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Talkback: Nils von Barth: No inline links to Wikipedia

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Hello, Ikan Kekek. You have new messages at Nbarth's talk page.
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Delaware County

I'm not going to do the towns for a while ... it was mainly because I'm trying to get rid of all the redlinks in Catskills, and, being familiar with both Delaware and Sullivan counties, it seemed that the former would be easier to write (especially seeing that I hadn't started a page here before).

I do have some more to write. Feel free to look for more photos, though. Daniel Case (talk) 00:46, 14 February 2014 (UTC)


Special:Contributions/Ncseo was repeatedly adding links to "" from cities in that region. I see you've moved them to "Cope" but don't think they belong in the guide at all per Wikivoyage:External links (spam links, links to other travel guides). I've removed them. K7L (talk) 15:58, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

I understand completely. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:37, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Moreton Island

Hi Ikan,

Thanks for your help. I will take this into account with the latest edits; please let me know if there's anything I need to fix up there.



Sure thing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:32, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! Have gone through now, is that a bit more appropriate? I note has 5 listings under 'eat' of which 4 link to the same page - not trying to be snarky but are the rules different for accommodation?

Also Reality Cruises unfortunately no longer service the island (you can see their site is down too:

Thanks for all your help with this.



Sure, Charles. There is still an issue under the don't tout policy: Generally speaking, it is not OK under that policy to have more than one listing. Is Castaways Restaurant owned by Moreton Island Adventures Accommodation? If not, its link should be to its own website (if any). If so, its listing should be incorporated into the "Sleep" listing, which also should use normal capitalization ("units, glamping, camping and dorms"). In terms of the ferry, I see that the micat site forwards to your site, so I think it's OK and serves the traveller to keep the link. But also, please have a look at the external links page for currently-approved linking format: Footnote-style used to be used but is now deprecated.
As for why another business has 5 listings under "Eat": Some touting gets through when people aren't looking. If you see any more examples in any article, please don't hesitate to post about them on the talk page of the appropriate article, or delete the extra listings yourself if there's no risk that that could be interpreted as action against a competitor.
Finally, the custom here is to sign one's username on talk pages (though never on travel article pages) by typing 4 tildes in a row like this: ~~~~.
I'll look forward to seeing your further edits in that article, and if you have any more questions, please don't hesitate to ask.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:03, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for alerting me to the multiple listings of; that was really an example of fairly gross touting. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:14, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi Ikan,

Thank you again for your patience - I have amalgamated all the relevant eat/drinks/sleep/convenience store into one listing - I hope this is the correct way to do it? They are all owned by Moreton Island Adventures. Wasn't sure whether 'relaxed' is a bit too touty, please feel free to remove if you don't think it's the right usage.

P.S. Not to be a pedant, but the 'Whalers' bar' is also owned by Tangalooma Resort - the link there just goes to a generic page. I'd not feel comfortable editing their listing, though. Would like to leave it up to your discretion.

Thanks again for all your help.



MoretonIsland (talk) 05:33, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

You're very welcome, and thanks a lot for cooperating and producing an excellent listing. "Relaxed" is not touty but descriptive. And you were absolutely right about Whalers Bar, not pedantic at all. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:42, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm back

I'm back. I don't want you to think it was that county thing that made me take a break, it was just the straw that broke the camel's back. There were quite a few things I was behind on. I do have an idea for what to do with the county redirect redirects tough, send them them to New York City#Boroughs. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 21:48, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

I noticed that you were back and editing. I'm happy you're back. I'm also sorry I aggravated you - I didn't mean to, and really appreciate the work you do.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:24, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
No apology necessary; you hardly aggravated me, it was just a straw. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 00:06, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Auto is not car

I do understand the western notion of using a car, well autos are just not cars. Infact they look or feel no where like that. Please checkout w:Auto_rickshaw and yes in India we call them "autos" and we rarely use the full name of auto rickshaw but I guess naming should be unambiguous.--Pavithrans (talk) 12:58, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

I see. No, that can't be called "By auto," because people from outside the Indian Subcontinent will assume, as I did, that auto is just short for automobile, which is synonymous with car. If this is what you mean, please subtitle the section "By auto rickshaw". Thanks a lot. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:19, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

topic article

just checking volcano topic article and feel this is unnecessary spruiking - your thoughts?

With 167 known active volcanoes, Indonesia is the world's most volcanic country by far. Volcano Adventure Indonesia, Sukapura, tel. +62-335-581439, +62-81319090225, [1] runs specialist volcano tours all around the country.

sats (talk) 09:03, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Those facts have nothing to do with a listing for a tour company. I would delete that opening sentence right away - or move it to the explanatory sections of the article if it's useful, say, in "Understand." Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:19, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Wikivoyage:Destination of the month candidates/Banners#Buffalo

At this point, the Buffalo banners aren't doing much more than taking up space on the page. However, I want to preserve the conversation as it exists now because I plan on using at least some of the same banners when Buffalo's DotM nomination is revived. Would it be okay to move that section into my userspace and then move it back when Buffalo is renominated?

Also, FWIW, my tentative plan is to switch out one of the North American DotMs for Buffalo as soon as possible after it's re-nominated. My original goal was to sub it in in June in favor of Manhattan, but that may be too optimistic at this point. Calgary in September seems more realistic, which would require moving Chicago/Far Northwest Side out of the August 2013 OtBP slot, but whatever.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:39, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Andre, anything you want to do is totally fine with me. And in case I haven't said so recently, you rock! Rock on, bro. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:39, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
Thanks again, Ikan! Buffalo/West Side will be online by month's end if not before. It's my favorite one so far, being my own neighborhood. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:22, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Edit conflict

We edited the Ann Arbor article at the same time. Feel free to revert me if you think the listing should go. -- Ryan • (talk) • 05:27, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

If you're satisfied that's sufficiently detouted, that's alright. However, I like to get rid of all imperative-voiced verbs. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:30, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Sometimes our tone lends itself well to the use of imperative sentences. Powers (talk) 19:20, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
I feel like a commanding tone in a listing for a business tends to promote, rather than describe. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:12, 10 March 2014 (UTC)


Wondering if you get the same results as me [25] Currently seeing if pagerank changes with the article I am looking at now. Travel Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:18, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, nice to see you on WV, but I don't have time to do this right now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:28, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

External links guidelines ...

Hi, I've seen your corrections about my changes on "Elba" and "Ischia" pages. Obviously I must agree with you about unsuitables links I added on these pages. Nevertheless I see on "Ischia" page I still see more then one link that clearly are againts guidelines ... I mean: (Pronto Ischia), (Hotel Ischia Reservation), (Hotel Ischia). I think you should remove these links too, don't you? :-)

--Oldlhsguy (talk) 17:16, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. We volunteer editors don't always notice everything. If you see more, please post to the talk (discussion) pages for the articles in question. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:16, 11 March 2014 (UTC)


First to do this etc - I have somewhere some books about tourism in indonesia in the 30s and then the 70s and earlier - the interesting thing is I reckon that any claims to be first anything in Bali is probably wrong. sats (talk) 09:54, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Sounds likely to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:11, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Non-latin scripts in article names

I'm not following the discussion super-closely, but in this edit of yours at Wikivoyage talk:Deletion policy#Non-latin scripts in article names did you overlook the bit in the proposed wording that preceded the bullet points and said "Titles in non-Latin scripts"? cheers. Nurg (talk) 10:03, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

But my objection was to this part: "Redirect titles that are the local language name of the redirect target as it appears in the lede of the article are discouraged on English Wikivoyage and may be subject to a Votes for Deletion discussion." Local languages are fine unless they're in non-Latin letters/syllables/characters. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:09, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Map of places that have Wikivoyage articles that are near Tiraspol...

I'm a bit baffled as to why exactly you think we should not be linking to the Wikivoyage map server. Can you explain your reasoning, please? --118.93nzp (talk) 00:54, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Looks like I made a mistake! :-) Thanks for speaking up. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:56, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for taking a second look! --118.93nzp (talk) 01:21, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Wait, why are we now including links to a tools server? There are much better ways to include that sort of information, not least of which is the (beta) Special:Nearby functionality. In any case, however, wouldn't the normal process be to start a discussion to figure out how we would want to present this sort of information, rather than inserting links that may be questionable? -- Ryan • (talk) • 01:13, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Now I'm really baffled. Doesn't the Special:Nearby functionality relate to the actual (or stated) position of the reader rather than what Wikivoyage articles might be close to an article?
In any case, it doesn't exactly leap out and grab the reader by the gizzard from its left hand gutter position, does it? And even if the reader is savvy enough to click on "Special pages", it's just one of many options in a long list.
By all means thrash out a better way to do this, but please recognise that one of the virtues of plunging forward is that it may promote new ideas and better ways to do things - that's why I'm still so pissed off at your curmudgeonly and luddite attitude to both better Search Engine Optimisation and honouring registered readers wishes as to their thumbnail sizes, Ryan... --118.93nzp (talk) 01:22, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Oy, don't go there on my user talk page, please. Just keep to the subject under discussion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:00, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Sorry - I'll strike words that may offend. --118.93nzp (talk) 02:16, 24 March 2014 (UTC)


Hi IK. I noticed you just removed "Ideal" from Royal Chitwan National Park because the word sounds like touting. Fyi, I've recently used this word in numerous articles (Mirpur_Khas#Sleep, Nawabshah#Sleep, Thatta#Sleep, Umerkot#Sleep, Hyderabad_(Pakistan)#Sleep, Sehwan#Sleep) to which I contributed recently. On Wikivoyage:Words to avoid, it stated State what exactly makes it ideal. and I tried to state in the listings what make that accommodation ideal as well used the word "ideal". Do you think I should remove that word incase it violates our rules ? --Saqib (talk) 10:55, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I tend to think so. My interpretation of the remark in words to avoid is that we should describe what makes a place "ideal" but avoid using that word. But maybe I'm wrong. It might be a good idea to have a broader discussion about this in the pub. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:59, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Alright Imran Khan IK. I'll try to bring the matter to pub sometime soon! --Saqib (talk) 11:01, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Hahahahah. But to be somewhat serious for a second, a lot of this is really contextual. If a place is truly ideal - such as its location being ideal for having the single greatest view over the mountains or something - that's the rare occasion to use the word and really mean it. Because ideal means the best possible, and even more so, it has to be not only the best possible in a particular place but clearly fantastic and almost perfect in some defined way. That, anyway, is my interpretation of what "ideal" means. It's not only the best, but a standard of perfection to be aspired to. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:09, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
During my trips to destinations, I tried to visit every accommodation and thus I used word "ideal" for a accommodation which is far better than all other options exist in that particular destination. --Saqib (talk) 11:14, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
In that case, I'm OK with you restoring the word to the entry I deleted it from. But maybe make it clearer what makes it ideal. I wasn't aware that you, rather than someone else, had used the word in the entry I edited, but the tone didn't make it clear to me that it hadn't been posted by someone in order to tout. That could be a shortcoming on my part, but please see what you can do, anyway. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:18, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
I think you misunderstood. I never been to Nepal nor I ever edited Royal Chitwan National Park. I only brought up this discussion because you removed the word from this national park article so I thought of letting you know that I myself used this word on many Pakistani destination articles recently. --Saqib (talk) 11:29, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
I did misunderstand. So then, to restate things a bit, I'd be careful to use the word sparingly, at most, but I think I've tended to leave your use of "ideal" alone most of the time because you've made clear by the context what was ideal about the place you were describing. In general, though, I find the word very overused, often in the context of either touting or an over-enthusiastic raving description by a rabid fan, which could be mistaken for touting. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:44, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Alright. Btw, Do you have in mind any similar expression which can be replaced by word "ideal" for a accommodation Or a restaurant which are better than all others options exist in a destination? --Saqib (talk) 11:47, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
The best thing to do would be to be more specific. "Fantastic food - the most complex-tasting in City X." "Most centrally-located hotel in town, right next to the Central Railway Station." "Incredible 360-degree panorama from the roof of this hotel, worth a visit even if you're staying elsewhere." "Cleanest, most comfortable guest house in the park." Etc. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:55, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
The language we're looking to avoid is "Restful Inns and Suites is the ideal location for all of your East Podunk travel needs". If something truly is ideal, and it's not just puffery, then it's okay to say so; "Words to avoid" are not forbidden, just words you should be very careful about using. That said, "ideal" does not mean "best". A hotel can be the best one available in the area, but that doesn't necessarily make it "ideal". The word connotes an absolute superiority of purpose, not merely a relative quality judgement. Powers (talk) 13:50, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
We agree on the meaning of "ideal." As I said earlier in this thread, it's a standard of perfection to be aspired to. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:44, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Agreed. When Saqib says he "tried to visit every accommodation and...used [the] word "ideal" for a accommodation which is far better than all other options" - that is not the meaning of "ideal". It doesn't mean "nothing better (currently) exists"; it means "nothing better could possibly exist". If something is ideal, it's typically really hard to even imagine something better in the given sense. Texugo (talk) 20:06, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

What's going on?

Aloha, Ikan! You probably noticed the vandalism going on here 15 minutes ago. Boeing 737 was moving around your and Saqib's user and talk pages in addition to maybe 20 odd other pages. I returned the content to Saqib's user and talk pages and tagged the pages created by the vandal for deletion but Saqib reverted them and also another of my reverts. I see you've blocked Saqib because his account is hijacked. o.O ϒpsilon (talk) 10:09, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Yep, that's how it seems to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:11, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
This is all a misunderstanding. Saqib's account is not hijacked. User:Boeing 737 moved many pages and Ypsilon tagged the pages for deletion while it should have been reverted without redirects. Saqib reverted those moves with redirects. --Glaisher (talk) 10:16, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
That's not what I saw. I saw in the history of a lot of the vandalism that he created pages, so obviously, his account was hacked. I don't remember seeing you around before; welcome! I've been spending a lot of time deleting those pages. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:18, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
I believe Glaisher is exactly right. Nurg (talk) 10:21, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Holy shit, I come back to Wikivoyage and I see this in the recent changes filling up my watchlist. Most likely Saqib was just concerned Ypsilon wasn't reverting properly since he does not have the suppressredirect given to administrators, which leaves tons of redirects behind to clean up after. TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 10:25, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Which I've spent the last half hour or so deleting. Nurg, you may be right, but why was Saqib the first name in the history of all those vandalism articles? Does the name of the author disappear when he's indefinitely blocked? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:27, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
The vandal was primarily doing just page moves, not editing. Nurg (talk) 10:30, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
When the vandal moved "Page A" to "Nonsense Page B", their name comes up first in the redirect created at "Page A". When Saqib moved "Nonsense Page B" back to "Page A", Saqib's name comes up first in the redirect created at "Nonsense Page B". In the process the move most likely overwrote the vandal's username. TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 10:32, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
Oh, I see. Very confusing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:34, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
You can try creating and moving some pages at and see it for yourself. TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 10:36, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for explanation TeleComNasSprVen. I'm wondering one thing BTW. My user page was vandalised because I was at that time reverting vandalism but IK was not present on wiki until 9:58 UTC then how and why his user page got attention of the vandal and Boeing 737 crash landed on IK user page as well. --Saqib (talk) 11:07, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
It could have been random. That vandal messed with a lot of pages. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:08, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Pardon me for bothering you with a matter not strictly related to Wikivoyage...

Where is this???

This would probably be best asked in the Tourist Office, but you're a native Manhattanite and if you don't know the answer to this, likely no one will.

I was going through my photo archives, and I'm trying to figure out what street corner this is. The photo was taken somewhere in Chinatown in August 2004. If it helps, I believe that I was walking from City Hall Park toward the corner of Canal and Mott Streets. Google Street View has been no help thus far.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 07:04, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

No bother at all! That photo was taken on East Broadway, looking toward the approach to the Manhattan Bridge. The near cross-street is Catherine St. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:13, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 07:16, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
You're welcome! Next time you're here, let me know, and I'll take you to some of my favorite Chinese restaurants. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:27, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Careful now, I'll probably take you up on that. :) -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 07:35, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
We don't really have Chinese of the non-Americanized variety in Buffalo, but if you like Burmese and ever make it to the far end of the state, I can definitely show you some good places. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 07:43, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
I mean for you to take me up on it. I love Burmese food, and we don't have a good Burmese restaurant in New York, though there is one in Philadelphia. I like Buffalo, but I'm not sure when I'd come up again. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:54, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
My brother lives in Bushwick, and I visit him from time to time. I'll let you know next time I do. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 08:24, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Cool. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:34, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Re: Azhar sabri

FYI, his CentralAuth information shows him adding lots of userpages and vandalizing a couple of other high traffic pages to promote himself (Wikidata main page, Meta Wiki main page and Commons Wiki template) and that's why I tagged it. But if you disagree and it's determined his userpage on this wiki can stay though, I'm fine with that also. --TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 08:00, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I see. You did research, whereas I was just looking at his user and user talk pages. Let's see what else he does on this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:10, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
It's my fault for not communicating a clear enough reason when I put up the template. --TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 08:31, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
No problem. I have no big problem with what he posted on his user page, per se, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:33, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

"add listing" buttons

I will use these buttons in the future to add more info about listings. I can use these on most computers, but the one have used for Wikivoyage updates most of the time had a setting not allowing me to use this option. I found the setting and changed it, so I can now use the add listing buttons. I will go back thru my entries and add what info I can find. Wpollard (talk) 11:58, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Excellent. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:28, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
I had to abandon the computer I was using and use my laptop to properly add listings. I started with the Wauchula article. Some computers have security settings that prevent the use of certain functions. Wpollard (talk) 07:00, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
I had no idea about this. That's unfortunate. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:03, 16 April 2014 (UTC)


Thanks for your guidance. Can I use my userpage Rukn950 to keep track of my interests?Rukn950 (talk) 14:16, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:20, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

An award for you!

Barncompass.png The Wikivoyage Barncompass
Congrats, Ikan, for your revisions ! Cquoi (talk) 19:27, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm jealous but yes, you deserve one for patrolling. --Saqib (talk) 21:31, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, you two. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:27, 1 May 2014 (UTC)a
You are welcome, Ikan !--Cquoi (talk) 12:11, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Ignorance- fishery sites

I can see you do not show any understanding of the fishery as the second most important industry in Norway. So I ask you; honestly, why not for tourists to Norway. For your information, the page I am referring to is an official, Norwegian site, driven by government. Carsten R D Carsten R D

Replied on your user talk page. Thanks for reading it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:46, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
So, still you do not understand the meaning of fishing along the coast of Norway (as any idiot should do -to refer yourself), from north to south, but you continue to make an issue of this! Carsten R D Carsten R D
I think we should discuss this on Talk:Norway and invite more participation. I would suggest that you might want to be less confrontational, considering that this is the very first time you've ever given any evidence of paying any attention to your user talk page. I'd like to make you an autopatroller and stop individually patrolling every one of your edits, but while you put up a lot of great content, you do not consistently follow the guidelines in the Manual of Style. Look for the thread in Talk:Norway. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:07, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
So what? I suggest you exit here, even if you have extensive experience of adding up in irrelevancies.Carsten R D Carsten R D
This is a collaborative site, which means that we discuss things. I suggest you do that in Talk:Norway#Norway Seafood web page link. I will consider this thread closed and await discussion at that link. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:21, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
I find joy in creating articles on Wikivoyage, you can delight in correcting articles others have created. But you should realize that your activities do not create more desire to work for us who want only to improve Wikivoyage, with your focus on any minutiae in the articles. This reminds me of a destructive, strict, not praising school teacher's activity with a red pen. Carsten R D
Sorry you feel that way. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:14, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
The thing is, what do you think Wiki is? What's your conception of how editing works on sites like this? I'd like to know. My motivation is like yours: To help make this site and its articles as good as possible. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:36, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

South Korea

Thanks for your interest. I just found Wikivoyage:Links to Wikipedia being somewhat inconclusive on when to or not to link, so similar to other notations of Korean phrases, I am annotating the draconian National Security Act with more relevant Korean hangul and hanja per Wikivoyage:Foreign words to facilitate those who would like to search about it, but I as a Korean learner wonder if using a comma between hangul and hanja here has been standardized while I would like annotate more hanja when appropriate.--Jusjih (talk) 06:07, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

That page is conclusive on inline links to Wikipedia not being allowed except on talk pages like this one. Just look at Wikivoyage:Links to Wikipedia#In-line links:
The External links guidelines do not permit links from Wikivoyage articles in the Main namespace (travel articles) to Wikipedia articles (except in the "Related sites" menu), as they are not primary sources.
Unfortunately, I don't know Korean and couldn't comment on the different scripts. It would probably be best to ask for advice at Talk:Korea. Thanks a lot for your edits! Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:29, 4 May 2014 (UTC)


Hi Ikan, just saw your comment on talk munich. My hope was that you can help shorten the Understand Art section that is reiterated in several parts of the whole article. I think we have more than enough content, the article rather needs a red line when it comes to art stuff. I can't differentiate between the big & small fish from all the names and films. Do you by incidence? I will focus on Munich/South-West which is the only obstacle to the guide level for the whole article. jan (talk) 18:34, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't know all the arts equally well, but I'll have a look later or tomorrow and see what jumps out at me. Thanks, Jan. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:57, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
Hi, Jan. I've had a look and really don't feel qualified to make cuts to the names because I just don't know enough about German visual artists to recognize a lot of the names. I'm really unsure the section is unduly long, though, as Munich is a major city of the arts. If any of that stuff is reiterated elsewhere, the things that are repeated can be deleted as redundant. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:06, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
Ikan, i have no clue about these art sections, too. Maybe it is a way to delete all the names and name instead the art style. Either way it needs to get shorter. Lets see, maybe some other WVer has a clue. jan (talk) 12:36, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
Ikan, please feel free to change/add the Understand section. I completely trust you and know that you do great work. jan (talk) 11:48, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. However, I want to avoid adding back too much. I liked all the background, but I understand that it's better not to go on too long and lose many readers who want a much briefer introduction. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:51, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

US History

Thank you for your comments. I appreciate you taking your time to add your criticism. I left my justifications on the USA talk page. I think my edits on the Civil Rights portion could be improved, but I'm sticking by my thoughts on the reasons for the War of 1812.PhilD86 (talk) 06:00, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Plymouth Colony

Plymouth Colony rederect

Plymouth Colony map.svg
Map of Massachusetts Regions.png

There's a redirect I created which I'm thinking of having deleted, but I wanted a second opinion before taking any action. The redirect is Plymouth Colony and the target is Southeast Massachusetts, but it turns out I misremembered the borders. Cape Cod (not including Nantucket Martha's Vineyard islands) is part of the former Plymouth Colony, but outside of our definition of Southeast Massachusetts.

I'm thinking this should be either deleted or turned into an extra-hierarchical region. I'm strongly leaning trodes EHR. The Plymouth Colony is rather famous, it does seem like something someone would look up in a travel guide, at least if said travelers motivation for traveling was (at least in part) to learn about history and visit historic sites or something. What do you think. Mind you deletion and EHR aren't necessarily the only options, just the only ones I've really thought of. If you have your own idea, feel free to suggest it. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 20:39, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't know. I'm a bit skeptical of redirecting defunct entities consigned to history multiple centuries ago to existing entities. You might want to post to the redirect's talk page and get others' views. Perhaps User:Pashley, who likes to create articles about historic empires and such, might have a view of what to do in this case. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:08, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
It looks like a good candidate for an extra-hierarchical region to me, though others might not agree.
For an example of an e-h region article I have done for a historic area, see Bactria. For my argument that having more like that would be a good idea, see Wikivoyage_talk:Search_Expedition#Index_articles. Pashley (talk) 23:20, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
I think I agree, Pashley. I'd suggest that a Plymouth Colony article should include a historical map, some background, links to towns that existed then and still exist, and some remarks about points of interest from those times that are still extant and visible or/and visitable. I like that idea much better than a redirect. Thanks for your input. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:32, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
Here's a stub. The historic map if should help with that town list. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 00:27, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
Good start. I enlarged the historical map. I think the map of Massachusetts should be deleted from the article, though; I think it just takes up space. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:31, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
I actually plunged forward and deleted the regions map of current-day MA. As Boston is shown in the historical map, that should be good enough, in my opinion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:33, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Audio for phrasebooks proposal

Hi thereǃ It's taken a while, but I have now written the proposal to introduce audio files for language phrasebooks. It turns out there was a previous discussion which touched on some of the same issues, but it was last year and came to an abrupt end without any sort of resolution, so I have made my proposal under a new topic heading.

Anyway, see you there --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:40, 11 May 2014 (UTC)


Just wanted to say thanks for checking my grammar in the Tokyo/Nakano article. Looks like I need to learn that "lots" goes with "There are", not "There's". Stupid brain should know better. Keep up the great work!--Red Trela (talk) 12:24, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome. And keep putting up the content!
Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:42, 15 May 2014 (UTC)


Hello Ikan Kekek, sorry for my miscommunication. I was the one who wrote the information about Ride in Peru like a month ago and I just actualise yesterday it with a more explicit name and the email most used, as you can see I let the same phone and most of the informations. Can you tell me how I should communicate to do changes o actualisation because I was about to do it in others languages. Thanks in Advance. Jumojumox —The preceding comment was added by Jumojumox (talkcontribs)

Hi. Please explain why you are changing (hijacking?) the horse riding listing in the Arequipa guide. Edit warring of this kind without explanation will not be tolerated and may necessitate blocking your account. Communication in this kind of situation is essential. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:30, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I'll type this information on your user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:40, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Re:User Visitlutsk. Copyright violations. Lutsk article

Hello Wikivoyage. First of all we would like to point out that it is very hard to understand the mechanism of communication with the administration. Secondly, answering your complaints of copyright violations, we have to say that the information placed by us on Wikivoyage was taken from our official site with the aim of spreading the information to a wider public, since Wikivoyage is much more popular. Concerning the matter of rewriting, we should say that if you think it is necessary then go for it, because quite frankly we are not paid to do this kind of work. We are pretty sure you won't be getting any formal complaints about plagiarism on the account of this particular information. Our aim is to give useful information about Lutsk seeing as the name of our organisation if The Center for Tourist Information and Services. It is by all means your right to delete the information and waste a hard days work, but you also haven't mentioned the means by which we can prove that we have the right to publish this particular information. Please send us a reply and maybe a manual on how to use this awkward system of correspondence. Best regards, The Center for Tourist Information and Services

Replay to: User talk:Visitlutsk Hello, Visitlutsk! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. If you are familiar with Wikipedia, take a look over some of the differences here.

Thanks for contributing to the Lutsk article. I'm not sure if the history section needs to be that extensive, however. Also, if you're working in the tourism sector you may want to read through our Welcome, tourism professionals section. ϒpsilon (talk) 15:47, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Also, please have a look at Wikivoyage:Copyleft. Specifically, I'd like to call your attention to this: [Y]ou are legally responsible not to put other people's copyrighted work into Wikivoyage without permission. What this means is that you are not permitted to verbatim quote passages from other sites that do not use copyleft, in particular those that specifically affirm a copyright ("all rights reserved," etc.). However, even copying long passages from other sites that do use copyleft is a bad idea; it's much better to paraphrase the material such that it's most appropriate to this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:58, 22 May 2014 (UTC) For example, I notice that you have verbatim copied the passage on Jazz Bez from Now, given your screen name, I might assume that you have permission to do this, despite the "© VisitLutsk 2012-2014. All rights reserved" at the bottom of the page. But how do we really know this? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:03, 22 May 2014 (UTC) It is also important that our Ukranian colleagues have found multiple copyright violations by this user. --Alexander (talk) 09:39, 22 May 2014 (UTC) Please reply, User:Visitlutsk. If no satisfactory reply is received, it may prove necessary to delete all your edits. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:43, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi. I replied to your user talk page. Please read my reply there. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:16, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Temporary announcement

You wrote on your user-page that you will have intermittent internet access for up to 2 weeks, starting on May 5, 2014. Is it May 25 or June 5 because its already been 3 weeks since May 5. --Saqib (talk) 20:01, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Geolocation, common sense

Thanks for your message! Please excuse my perhaps slightly unclear message in the edit summary. Further to your explanation - do note that the geolocation tools we have at hand (all of them) tend to be fallible and sometimes return quite incorrect results. This is frustrating and time-consuming, but I try to double-check every set of coordinates I get from them, and I see results of trusting them too much all around, which is sometimes very bad.

For now, until the tools get improved, I would say one of the best things we can do is actually spending some time verifying those listing locations when editing a guide.

On an unrelated note - thanks for bringing common sense to many of the discussions we are now having, which gives me hope they aren't going to turn as absurd as they are promising to. PrinceGloria (talk) 05:28, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I do my best. I think it's best not to get too attached to a position about anything here, as in the end, this is just a travel guide, nothing that's too likely to be the difference between life and death. We've seen what's happened when some people have been way too attached to their positions - even when they made a lot of points I agreed with, they too often became unpleasant, so when they were absent, things became much more peaceful around here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:31, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

My continued work on Wikivoyage

I have been adding a number of items to this site since I first started. It is a bit different from Wikipedia, but I got the hang of it and plan to add info as I visit places new to me. And I like to travel, even if I don't get far from home. Just wait until I visit England next year; I am quite familiar with many places, since I lived there in 2001-2. Wpollard (talk) 12:47, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Excellent. Have a great trip when the time comes, and I'll look forward to your contributions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:38, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Berlin#Rebooting districts

Hey Ikan, I saw you took some interest in Berlin/East Central, a guide that I propose splitting in a discussion thread linked to in the heading of this message. At this moment, Berlin's article's are a bit on the fence between the old split between districts and a new one we never finished. I would love some comments on my proposal to be able to push it towards a final consensus and finish the redistrictification so that we could continue working on polishing district articles in a sensible fashion (for now, a lot has been out there rotting as it will probably be split / eliminated anyway). PrinceGloria (talk) 06:55, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi, PrinceGloria. I spent a month in Berlin last summer and a week there this past winter, but I haven't been to all parts of Berlin, so I don't think I know enough to have an opinion about how to divide the city up for the purposes of this site. The new map looks neat, though.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:01, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Ikan, you probably spent more time in Berlin in total than I did. Nobody's ever been to ALL parts thereof, but we need an educated guess. I propose to focus on the central areas and add one more, which covers all that is south of Mitte (I don't believe you never were to Kreuzberg or Tempelhof or didn't consider going there), and throw the areas most of us will never cover, at least not in total, into an article on the "outer ring". What do you think of it? Do let us know in the talk page, you surely know enough Berlin to chip in very valuably! PrinceGloria (talk) 07:06, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
PS. Whichever is the "new map", as I have no idea what you are referring to...
The map of regions of Berlin on the Berlin page is not new? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:16, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Age old, drawn on the orders of the Kaiser on parchment with a quill. I am proposing to do away with it and:
  1. limit City West to actual City West (not City West and Messe and Grunewald and whatever else),
  2. split East Central into actual East and South that would cover Kreuzberg, Tempelhof and Neukolln (all that binds the current "East Central" together is the administrative collection of Kreuzberg and Friedrichshein)
  3. move all POIs in the outlying areas into one article, as there aren't many and they are so few and far between no common "get in" instruction or "understand" introduction is really useful however we splice them, so we need one article with multiple instructions not to split the hair in four.
PrinceGloria (talk) 07:22, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
I really feel like this is above my depth to a large degree, but have you drawn up a map of the proposed divisions? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:37, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Bowling Green (Florida)

Thank you for fixing some of my shortcomings in creating this article. I'm still learning all the ins and outs of Wikivoyage. I have been looking at similar articles and studying what has been done to create them. If I keep learning enough, I will be able to create seamless articles. Wpollard (talk) 21:41, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Happy to help. You're doing fine; keep it up! Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:33, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

New York skyline guide

I was looking at the article request section and noticed somebody has asked for a New York City skyline guide. Just want to let you know ;) ϒpsilon (talk) 13:47, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I noticed, too, but I have no intention of attempting such a guide, and if it were attempted, a decision would have to be made about which viewpoint the guide would cover. Would it be the view from the Brooklyn Bridge, the Empire State, the Top of the Rock, the Brooklyn Heights Promenade, Weehawken, Jersey City, the George Washington Bridge? I think it's probably a fool's errand. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:52, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

An award for you!

Barnstar of Diligence Hires.png The Barnstar of Diligence
This award was long overdue. In appreciation of your hard work, dedication and for your community service. Well done and thank you for all the hard work that you do. Saqib (talk) 10:59, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Yes, thanks for your great work, Ikan!ϒpsilon (talk) 11:13, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, guys, and right back to you! Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:16, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

RE: Indonesia

Hi, Ikan. Nice catch and thank you for the acknowledgement. I am actually a native Indonesian, and while I don't have life, which I often am, I would look at Wikipedia & WikiVoyage & see what information can I update. It's kinda sad to see the contents are somewhat poor and when there is content, it's usually not up to WikiVoyage standards. For the long term, we can collaborate on making Indonesia an article (and finally the place itself) that one has to see! Othello95 (talk) 14:18, July 14 2014 (UTC)


Okay. Thanks for the welcome and tips. Sprayjavas (talk) 02:08, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Sure thing. As long as the articles in question are all well developed, I don't think anyone will have a problem with them (although I can't be positive about that). Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:52, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Kunming metro map

Hi Ikan. Is this what you were looking for? Anyway, the map is also in Chinese only, so I'm not sure it's worth linking directly to it. At any rate, normally we would only provide a link to the home page of the company, right? (I don't think there is one in the article yet.) If we put one, then anyone who can read Chinese can click to the site and quickly spot the link to the map page, no? Texugo (talk) 13:27, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that looks like what I was looking for. Yes, if you can read Chinese, you can navigate the site, but even people who can't read Chinese can see the Chinese names of stops on a map and find out how to read the names. Is it better to use the Commons map? I fear that it won't be updated so readily, whereas the Metro site's map will be. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:44, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I dunno, I just thought we usually tried to avoid deep-linking and/or multiple links to a single site, in which case a single link to the site's main page would suffice. Texugo (talk) 14:44, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I would make an exception in this case, in the interest of travelers who can't read Chinese but can read a map. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:08, 25 July 2014 (UTC)


Hello ikan, I read your message and the guidelines. I understand I cited ADI's guesthouse twice on the page, which is redundant. What I don't understand is why you removed all the information about surfing in Pantai Air Manis. I struggled a lot over internet to find a good spot for beginners. I think this information deserve to be there.

As for adi s guesthouse, it is indeed a nice place to stay. And budget too, which is always good to know. So I thought it was a useful information. Maybe we should only edit the description I wrote, and leave the information. (I am not a tout, and was not paid by adi to write this)

While traveling, I rely a lot on internet and wikivoyage. It was a challenge to get information on beginner surfing spots and to find accommodation there, that's why I found important to share this information.

Thanks for considering this opinion,

Noemie —The preceding comment was added by Noemieontheroad (talkcontribs)

Hi, Noemie, and thanks for writing. All of us have to avoid the appearance of touting, regardless of whether we ourselves are touts or not, and I'm glad you aren't. It's fine to post a single listing of the guesthouse in "Sleep." The reason I reverted your entire post was because it was more work than I had time for to delete most of your post and keep some of it up, so I left that task to you, while giving you a link to don't tout, so that you are less likely to run afoul of those guidelines in the future. We are all volunteers here, and your edits are appreciated. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:08, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Hi! I would love to edit my previous post. Is there a way for you to cancel the deletion? It is the first time I contribute, it took me some time to do it, so if I don't need to spend too much time on it again, that would be nice. Thanks —The preceding comment was added by Noemieontheroad (talkcontribs)
You can always see what was edited by clicking on "View history" on any page. For example, if you look at this, you can see your version on the left. One other thing: Please sign your posts by typing 4 tildes (the ~ key) in a row at the end of messages on talk (discussion) pages like this one. Thanks a lot. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:51, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
hi! Thanks for the very quick reply. I actually was trying to add a signature at the at the same time you were answering me. ::::Thanks for the explanation about the history. I beginning here, so it's really helpful.
Before I add adi guesthouse again, do you think that say that the owner is reliable and helpful is touting? For me it is a quality of this small hotel, to know that you won't be cheated or overcharged, but maybe it's more a trip advisor kind of thing. What's your opinion on that? Noemieontheroad (talk) 02:01, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
On the face of it, that sounds fine to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:00, 31 July 2014 (UTC)


...for copyediting the Discover section. I should be more careful what I pretty much drag and drop from articles (Bahamas is of Spanish descent?) ϒpsilon (talk) 16:55, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Don't knock yourself too much - thanks for taking the time to do this work every week! All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:40, 27 August 2014 (UTC)



Thanks for adding me in the autopattroller group. Regards, Yann (talk) 13:38, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely. I'm very surprised that fell through the cracks for so long. You should have been made an autopatroller a long time ago. Thanks for all your good work! Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:37, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Sonoma Valley

Hi Ikan! Thanks for the great edits. I do tend to get a little chatty, even with my old work on building out the original Indianapolis article back in the day :) Anyway, living in Sonoma now I thought I'd work on things. Regarding Sonoma Valley and the "talk" section. Now that I re-read the understand guidelines, perhaps its' a good idea to move the section about some of the local lingo to Understand. What kind of subsection header should we give it? Thanks! Missvain (talk) 01:56, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi. First of all, I'm delighted that you're back and editing, and I love all the new content you're adding. I think I would use a subtitle of "Dress" in the "Understand" section for "Wine Country casual," but the rest of the lingo is fine to keep in "Talk," in my opinion.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:02, 2 September 2014 (UTC)


First of all thanks to have corrected my mistakes, then I want to answer to your questions:

  1. the restoration of St. Silvestro hasn't been planned yet (they are collecting signatures and votes for the competition iluoghidelcuore). Perhaps it's bettere to delete this part.
  2. You were right about wars museum.
  3. "For want of St. Vigilio": the meaning is that the church was founded by this Saint.

Please tell me if i have to do some edits or if I made other mistakes or if you need some more information. --Lkcl it (Talk) 09:00, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for all your work. I'll have a look when I have more time. "For want of [name of person]" in English means "Because [name of person] was lacking (=not there)." Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:07, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Now I understand the problem, I'm sorry. --Lkcl it (Talk) 09:18, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
It's nothing to apologize for. You do the best you can and we can work with you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:25, 4 September 2014 (UTC)


In the interlingual lounge you wrote that Milan article need a lot of work to become a Guide. Could you give me some other details? I haven't understood very well what should be written in Milan and what in the district pages. Thanks for your help. --Lkcl it (Talk) 11:02, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I've yet to visit Milan, so I'm not the best person to answer in detail, but I'll note that:
(1) Two of the district articles are Outlines, while the rest are Usable. To be a Guide, all district articles must be at least Usable.
(2) There normally should be no bulleted lists in the article for a districted city, such as there is in "Do".
(3) Gay bars should not be listed in a separate section, but instead, should be listed in normal "Drink" sections in district articles. I think the actual paragraphs in "Drink/Gay and Lesbian Travellers" can be kept.
I'm sure other things will come up.
Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:42, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
The first problem is solved, and I have a question about the second one (then I'll work on the third): should I make edits like these [26], [27]? Thanks --Lkcl it (Talk) 18:33, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
I don't think having that marker there was doing any harm, so I'd say no. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:57, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
As you probably understood I misunderstood you, but I fixed reverting my edit. Now I hope to have understood: I'll remove the bullet list converting it into one or more paragraphs. --Lkcl it (Talk) 08:14, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Excellent. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:20, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

A quick question

What's your opinion on this pagebanner? Too boring? I could probably take another one, but I'd have to get on it quick before the snow starts. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:09, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

It has a very streamlined look. I think it's quite acceptable, though the extreme right could use some work, especially the thing that's in the upper right corner. By all means, take more photos if you have the time and inclination, but I don't think it's essential to do so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:02, 6 September 2014 (UTC)


Hi Ikan! I've seen your edit in Logroño and I want to thank you for your corrections. With "artifacts to experiment" I refer to some source of machines that are set in this garden to experiment with science. For example, spinning a wheel you can provoke a water vortex or in another one you listen to the echo. --Pablovp (talk) 09:28, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Pablo. So these are tools you can use to do your own experiments, then. The word "artifact" is most commonly used to mean an archeological relic. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:49, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Is that a recognised US spelling? (In other Englishes, it's spelt as "artefact".) --W. Frankemailtalk 13:38, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
Yes, exactly. That's the US spelling. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:41, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Inadvertent loss of good material

Since you're much more diplomatic than I and have additional tools available, please would you take a close look at some of the many edits being made by User:Othello95?

He adds much good material but I am getting increasingly worried about good material that is being deleted - perhaps by mistake.

What do you make of the removal of Japanese and Malaysian style restaurants here? --W. Frankemailtalk 13:38, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I've given him a lot of latitude, but I was surprised by the edit to "Sports." I'll write him a note. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:33, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! --W. Frankemailtalk 14:46, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

repairing copy-paste moves

I notice that you warned on July 5 about a cut-paste move which cut Washington, D.C./Northeast, dumped the content in Washington, D.C./Near Northeast unattributed (in its entirety) and then redirected the original page. This sort of cut-and-paste move creates attribution problems (as the history and contributor list is left behind at the old title) Wikipedia has a good explanation of Wikipedia:How to fix cut-and-paste moves but the process is awkward, especially if there were subsequent contributions after the move.

The same user has other copy-paste moves, including an August attempt to dump Tysons Corner into McLean (Virginia) and an attempt today to move Cleveland to Cleveland/Downtown. I haven't attempted to contact them directly, as this may require an admin to clean up any breaks in attribution (undoing a cut-and-paste move is a delete-move-undelete process to combine the article histories). K7L (talk) 17:15, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Maybe it's because I didn't get that much sleep today, but my brain doesn't seem to be completely processing this. If you're concerned with the user's edits to Cleveland, please post to Talk:Cleveland. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:52, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
I have no idea what the user did to Cleveland, but I assumed it was mostly moving listings into the district articles. Powers (talk) 19:01, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
That's what it looked like to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:06, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
The Cleveland edits would be valid if they had a descriptive edit summary saying what was done, so if text was moved from Cleveland to Cleveland/Downtown credit is given where due to the original authors at Cleveland. Fair enough.
The Washington/Northeast copy-paste move was a bit more problematic as it moves the entire page, leaving the entire edit history on the old title hidden behind a redirect; from the history on Washington, D.C./Near Northeast it appears falsely that the IP is the sole author of all the text as of the date of the cut-and-paste move. That's where the entire history needs to be moved with the article; a mess to fix as this was done in July and there have been subsequent contributions at the new title. It's fixable, but to recombine the Washington/Northeast and Washington, D.C./Near Northeast histories into one requires deleting Washington, D.C./Near Northeast, moving Washington, D.C./Northeast over top of it, then undeleting the Washington, D.C./Near Northeast revisions so that the whole mess is one article with one unified revision history. That's the sort of repair which requires an admin (a delete and undelete) and is nearly impossible to undo (as it combines revisions of multiple pages in one edit history).
It's a bit hard to follow what the user is doing. K7L (talk) 02:20, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
I don't volunteer to do these kinds of convoluted things just for the sake of a clearer history. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:25, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Do you mean you don't fix copy/paste moves because a clearer history isn't sufficient reasoning; or do you mean that you don't do copy/paste moves because they produce an unclear history? Powers (talk) 13:24, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I just find this overly complicated and don't find unclear histories to be a sufficient reason to go through these gymnastics. We all choose to focus on different things as volunteers here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:05, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm afraid I don't see the connection between your two statements. No one's forcing you to repair copy/paste moves, but at the same time, our licensing methods require someone to do so. It's not really a matter of discretion. Powers (talk) 17:03, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
And what I'm saying is that someone else can take care of it if they want to. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:08, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Harassment from another user

Hi Ikan, It is with disappointment that I have to report user W. Fr*** (name censored for privacy reasons) for a behavior on my talk page that I believe is harassing. When we were debating about the use of the currency system, he wants me to put the Rupiah's currency notation using his own idea of the three letter designator (IDR) that does not comply with the Wikivoyage:Currency page. I decided that I have to alter the page about notating the Rupiah because based on the official Perfected Spelling System adopted for the Indonesian language, it contains no space (sorry, I am unable to find any link in English that supports the idea, if you request I can give the Indonesian website), only for him to force me change everything in favor of using the version before my alteration. Apparently this issue has not reached a consensus as it looks like my discussion on the specific talk page has been ignored and just filled with his pushy message. I had no idea of what he really meant when he said everything, but in my perspective, he poses threat. I'm not on both sides of debate but I only follow what is the consensus. Please mediate us in this cold-headed war between who's right and who's wrong and you're next in deciding what should be done.

P.S.: In this case, is there any way to message any other user privately? Othello95 (talk) 17:41, September 14 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you felt I was harassing you.
I wanted to suggest that you bring up your suggested change at the relevant discussion page of wv:$.
You did so very quickly - but then, and without giving a chance for others to comment on your proposed change of using the Rp symbol for the Indonesian rupiah without a trailing space, you plunged forward and changed our currency policy page unilaterally. While I admire your chutzpah I suspect that it is your imperfect understanding of English and the Wiki way that is causing you to feel harassed. Please note that I did not revert your unilateral changes in defiance of existing policy - merely suggest that you argue your rationale in the appropriate place and achieve a consensus for a (much needed, in my opinion) policy change.
As for private messaging, many users have allowed the e-mail facility to be activated. See my signature, for example... --W. Frankemailtalk 18:14, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
W. Frank, I think your suggestion that User:Othello95 downgrade his Babel to intermediate English was inaccurate and unhelpful. As for the rest, Othello, Frank is just unusually passionate about these issues of formatting. In this case, I agree with you about the format of the Rupiah —- not that I care a lot about these things, but since the official way in Indonesia is not confusing, we should just go with it, with the exception, as Frank points out, of using commas instead of the periods that are used in Indonesia. I hope that is acceptable to you guys. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:48, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Very well then, my no space decision stands, and so is your argument for the preferred use of comma. We both win this time, Frank. I'll be back reverting the display of prices in the Jakarta article. Othello95 (talk) 02:54, September 15 2014 (UTC)

September 19, 2014

I'm going to be in NYC next weekend, arriving at Penn Station Friday in the early afternoon with nothing to do till my brother gets off work about 7PM. I'd like to take you up on your offer, if possible. I realize this is extremely short notice - my whole trip is, frankly - but I figured I'd give it a shot, anyway. You can send me a Wikivoyage email if you like.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:55, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Upload files, Upload Wizard?

Wikimedia Commons logo

Hello! Sorry for writing in English. As you're an administrator here, please check the message I left on MediaWiki talk:Licenses and the village pump. Thanks, Nemo 19:23, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Driving in the UK

Thanks for tidying up the edit. I had meant to delete the second reference to the website but forgot. The site is a free resource under licence to DVSA, and the income is negligible. There are no other relevant articles to link to it, so there won't be other edits/links relating to it. I'll carry on looking for other typos, though. Cheers, Darren Motorracer (talk) 08:25, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, and the copy editing you're doing is much appreciated. Given what you're telling me, I think it's probably fine that the site is linked on all those pages, although you should be prepared to defend this in a talk page discussion if another editor decides to delete one or more of the links.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:00, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks - no problem. I've removed the ref section, too. I do a lot of copy editing on Wikipedia and I did read the policy here about external links but I didn't see anything specifically mentioning references. I also noticed that in some pages there are a lot of commercial links, e.g. to various rental car companies, to the exclusion of others. I'm not sure we need them seeing as Google does a fairer job. I'll continue tidying the pages up, anyway. Darren Motorracer (talk) 09:16, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

You're right about car rental companies. The policy here is, if it's easy to rent a car in a particular place, no car rental agencies are listed. And if it's not easy, all reputable companies should be listed. So please feel free to delete listings in those kinds of cases, giving your reasons in your edit summary. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:37, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

revert and block

what is the logic behind reverting the edits and blocking --Traveler100 (talk) 10:34, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Apparent Telstra vandal. The edit in Mago National Park was pretty obviously that user. And all s/he has to do is engage in a dialogue; that's the whole problem. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:44, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
Still do not get it. The two edits where both correct facts. It appears to be a new user. No one approached them to ask about the edits or point out what was wrong with them. --Traveler100 (talk) 12:39, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
This "new user" has been asked to reply to their talk page. See if they ever do. Are you familiar with the Telstra vandal case? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:05, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
Please read through Wikivoyage:User ban nominations/Archive#Telstra vandal and look at the pattern of contributions in the links. It is a good and not a bad thing to avoid wasting time on this user, who never pays any attention to edit summaries or user talk page posts, very often commits copyright violation, and also posts a bunch of useless or nearly useless things, along with some useful corrections and such. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:11, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
Hi, How should I do the vandalism?Can I block by true reason ?Yanlinnnaung (talk) 11:08, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
Are you saying you've seen an example of vandalism? If so, please post to Wikivoyage:Vandalism in progress to inform admins about it. Only admins can block users' posting privileges. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:51, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Reversion at Pescara

Sorry for the reversion, it seemed an arbitrary elimination. Greetings.--Syum90 (talk) 09:15, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

No problem, but do you see why it wasn't arbitrary?
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:10, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
Yes, of course, I see it. Greetings.--Syum90 (talk) 00:04, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
Greetings right back to you. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:46, 9 October 2014 (UTC)


Re: this edit: Some research reveals the North Fork to be indeed highly regarded as a wine region, but the statement you inserted is kinda blah. "Also produces some very good wines" doesn't say much. What kind of wines do they specialize in? What makes the wineries on LI unique? It also adds a third sentence in a row using the word "also" and scans as "tacked on" to the paragraph. Is there any way we can punch it up a bit, make it flow better? Powers (talk) 14:11, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Sure. I'd have to do a little research to find out which wines they do best, though. I've had some good wines from there but I'm hardly an expert. I'll try to take a little time later, but I can't guarantee real life won't intervene. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:54, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for reverting Chantilly

Hi, thanks for reverting the article on [Chantilly (Virginia)]. I'm not sure what happened. The text looked O.K. in my web browser. Maybe one of my Firefox Addons accidentally deleted the text? Or perhaps the browser was acting incorrectly when I clicked the "save button". Bye Starionwolf (talk) 16:11, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

It's easy to do, and I've done it, too. You probably accidentally selected text. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:29, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Removal of audio files

Hi. Can you point me to any discussion that supports the removal of the audio links as in here? Such additions definitely add real avlue to phrasebooks (not everyone knows IPA and transcribing things phonetically may add confusion). Plus, it is always good to hear a native speaker say the phrasses. Wpedzich (talk) 18:10, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't disagree, but there is no consensus to allow such links. User:ϒpsilon provided 3 links to such discussions at Talk:Polish phrasebook#Audio files. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:00, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Reporting abuse

Sorry to bother you but I don't know where else to report this. It never occurred to me that the topic of driving in Doha could be so contentious on Wikivoyage. I have tried to be reasonable, but am unwilling to engage with this individual any further, or to continue to edit Doha.

Best, StellarD (talk) 02:14, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Addressed at your user talk page.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:08, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Golden Plates translation

Hi, Ikan. I appreciate the impulse behind this edit, but I think the questionable accuracy of Smith's account is made clear via the rest of the paragraph, and adding further disclaiming verbiage only serves to make the sentence more awkward. Keep in mind that I was using the word "translation" in the sense of "The end result of translating text", not "The act of converting or translating", which I think mitigates things a bit. It's also important to remember that we don't need to jump through extensive hoops to describe mythology as mythology. For example, in Bethlehem, we can say " the Romans set up a shrine to Adonis on the site of the Nativity" without having to say "on the site believed to have been the site of the Nativity" because the questionably historicity of the event has already been made clear earlier in the article. What do you think? Powers (talk) 02:18, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't have really strong views about this, so I'm fine with deferring to your judgment. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:22, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, and I apologize if I'm being pushy on this. Powers (talk) 11:28, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
I didn't think you were pushy. No apology needed! Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:02, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

"No reason"?

I don't understand why you asserted that there is "no reason" to include the Imagineering Field Guides in the Walt Disney World article. Please see my reply on the talk page, but I really think it was irresponsible of you to comment like that without knowledge of what the books are about. You've essentially stated that I performed an action without reason and advocated reversion of my edits without consulting with me or asking why I did what I did. That's disrespectful and not up to your usual standards. Powers (talk) 21:32, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I took the remark at face value and paid no attention to who had included those guides. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:59, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
I apologize as well, as I thought I'd mentioned them in my initial post on the talk page. Still, this is the WDW article we're talking about; I've had a hand in just about every word there. =) Powers (talk) 12:34, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
I wasn't aware of that, either. Basically, I need to be a little less knee-jerk sometimes. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:36, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Hindi phrasebook

Hi Ikan, I noticed that you started the India expedition and made improvements to the Hinduism page. Thanks for all of your work on Wikivoyage.

I would like to get your advice on the Hindi phrasebook. Some of the sections are in a table format while other sections are in a non-table format. Russian phrasebook, which has star status, is not in table format but maybe it works better for Hindi. What are your thoughts? DaGizza (talk) 00:39, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Hello, thanks for starting the Hinduism topic, an important topic someone should have started before, and thanks for asking for my thoughts.
My reaction is that the standard we use at Wikivoyage is normally to have the words written in the original alphabet or syllabary, with a "pseudo-pronunciation" in parentheses, as shown in the Russian phrasebook. I think an exception is made in the Chinese phrasebook, though, where the original characters are transliterated into Pinyin. But since Devanagari is an alphabet, it seems to me that using a Latin transliteration that's standard is India is not useful to English-speaking travellers, so while the tables in "Vowels" and "Consonants" are useful though not standard for Wikivoyage and could perhaps be retained, I would definitely suggest eliminating the tables in the rest of the phrasebook and substituting a useful form of pseudo-pronunciation for the non-useful transliterations. I can't tell how to pronounce "praņām" at a glance, and that's what pseudo-pronunciations (or pseudo-transliterations, if you like) are supposed to enable English-speakers to do, as much as possible.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:19, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
OK, I will follow a w:Hunterian transliteration-ish style as much as possible and get rid of all of the complicated diacritic symbols. It is easy to change the vowels to pseudo-English pronunciation (ā becomes aa, ī becomes ee and ū becomes oo) but it will be more of a challenge for the consonants. There are different "n" and "t" and "d" sounds. But even on the signs in India written in English, these sounds aren't differentiated. I guess the keen language learner can learn the Devanagari sounds accurately but the traveller who doesn't have much time can just pronounce as best they can. The locals will still be impressed even if you have an accent. :) DaGizza (talk) 00:08, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
That sounds like a good approach to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:53, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

You're Welcome

Hi, this is Ibaman, who mostly appears under the 200.252. IP number, plugged elsewhere. Always watching. Thank YOU for the amazing, tireless effort in WV. 14:23, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

You're most welcome. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:34, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Sydney

Oh well! If you checked the link, it's fine then. :) 02:00, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

How do I upload a picture in jpeg format into the wikivoyage article I am creating

When I copy a jpeg that resides on my computer in my MY DOCUMENTS and try to past it into the article I am in process of writing the wiki s/w will not allow me to paste

The jpegs are important to the itinerary I am working on —The preceding comment was added by Sloflash (talkcontribs)

Except for some unusual cases in which photos are important for travelers but not covered by Freedom of Panorama laws, jpegs are uploaded to Wikimedia Commons and then linked as thumbnails. Wikivoyage:How to add an image talks you through the process (note the linked text "How to upload files" near the end of the "Find available images" paragraph, which redirects you to a page on Commons).
By the way, if you haven't checked out Commons before, you're in for a load of enjoyment. I look at Commons almost every day, and like to link really good Commons photos in order to add value to Wikivoyage articles.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:56, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I can't upload my photo to my user page at wikivoyge.Give me some advice!Yanlinnnaung 17:01, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi, Yanlinnnaung. I'd give you the same advice I gave Sloflash above. Photos need to be uploaded to Wikimedia Commons and then linked as thumbnails on this site. Start by following the directions here (you'll need to use [ the Commons Upload Wizard to upload the file, but the previous link gives you information to read before you go through that process). Then, when you've successfully uploaded the image to Commons, follow the directions at Wikivoyage:How to add an image.
I realize it could be complicated the first time. Do you have any questions now that you've read these links? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:20, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi,Ikan Kekek.Thanks for your advices that is worked.Great! Yanlinnnaung (talk) 04:30, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm glad it worked. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:15, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
Hi,Ikan Kekek.I can't do to add a jpeg photo to pagebanner by .Why that ?Help me!!!Yanlinnnaung (talk) 19:00, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
First, a formatting request: Please put your newest post at the end of this topic, so it's easy to follow. I'm guessing the problem is that you didn't use the thumbnail format, which would look like this (without the "nowiki"): [[File:Images-37-jpeg|thumb|Desired caption (write what you want here, within reason)]] Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:25, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

"don't tout"


Can you please specify where and how did we use tout? And if you are going to remove the properties you can atleast let us know which ones and specify why.

Thanks —The preceding comment was added by BaliTjendanaVillas (talkcontribs)

Selamat datang dan terima kasih untuk menulis disini!
Have you read Wikivoyage:Don't tout yet? If you haven't, please read it and see if it answers your questions about what "touting" is, under the policies this site follows by consensus. Also, please look at editing summaries, which you can also see in the editing histories of articles. For example, you can see my remarks in the edit summary for the Nusa Lembongan article:
Edits per don't tout. Normally, you can't have more than one listing anywhere. It may make sense to allow a single "Do" listing in addition to your "Sleep" listing, but no way is it reasonable for you to have 3 listings. Don't use "we" or tout.
Wikivoyage:Don't tout will make clear what I mean by "more than one listing": For example, if you own a villa that has a garden, a pool, a bar and a restaurant, that doesn't mean it's appropriate for you to post 5 listings to an article.
I should say that your listings have become less touty lately, but I still get a bit of a whiff of promotion from at least some of them, so please watch that, given that this site is non-commercial. We do very much welcome business owners who want to share their knowledge with travellers, though. Please have a look at the welcome, business owners page for some thoughts on that, and write me back if you have any more questions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:54, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
i don't understand why you have removed my listing, at least you can explain ! it was at skopje, macedonia, under sleep- budget, the name is arss apartment

Alphabetizing sections

You re-alphabetized the "Eat" section of Lakeland, Florida, after I added an entry. Is there an app or a tool to automate alphabetizing a section once I add entries to it? If so, I will make note of it in my talk page for future use. Thanks. Wpollard (talk) 22:23, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't know of such a tool. Perhaps someone might suggest something if you ask in the Pub. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:20, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

email due

will eventually send a complex explanation as to the long absence - about to start editing again after it all - trust all is well - have had a range of barriers to regular voyage editing - about to break through and get back into it all - trust you are well... sats (talk) 15:56, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I am well, thank whomever/whatever. You don't have to explain anything to anyone, but the main thing is that I'm happy to hear from you and hope things are OK. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:40, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
Nah, I see things look quiet on the Oz-trylian front, need to get into it again, but the email - as much an explanation will be a christmas greeting offline as well... sats (talk) 01:03, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Wow in hindsight, and a small wander into some, a huge number of Indonesian articles have been clearly edited by non native english speakers and many parts are almost intelligible. But what really gets my beef - when I lived in Yogya - I never hard of rulers of Mangkunegara/Surakarta/Yogyakarta/Pakualaman as being designated as Kings - yet on wp en, and here it seems the rage with the eds who end up here to use the term - do you have any idea why this particular gloss? If no easy answer - I would have thought that such a translation is weird and not really appropriate - you thoughts would be appreciated on this matter. sats (talk) 14:11, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

There have been a lot of edits by an Indonesian user who posts plenty of information, but all of it has to be copy-edited, and I revert some of it at times. We also have another editor whose command of English is quite good. I do think that king is a good translation of raja or sultan, though. Why not? Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:28, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
good point - why not? - ok, as I said I never heard the usage by english speakers or english speaking indonesians in the 90s. I have all my multiple dictionaries from my fieldwork in storage, must dig them up and find if I am wrong - or not in my intuition. sats (talk) 13:37, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
We could always just use the word raja or sultan, but otherwise, how else would you translate their title into English? Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:43, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
The source of concern arises from indonesian editors getting into wp en - in most cases with limited or no english - adding all the honorifics to the various rulers in java. That is the source of this issue. Sri Sultan.... dan lain lain.... - with no understanding of why honorifics are left off in wp en (even people with Sir... and others - being simply their raw name with honorifs left off in name of article). So HB IX cannot be simply HBIX as far as the eds have it - all the beginning bits happen. So having never haerd 'king' in fieldwork, I have been fascinated how it has crept in - and of course the fierce Solo - Yk (Jogja) rivalry over 300 years - the appelation 'sultan' and 'susuhunan' as markers and identifiers of what side of prmabnan you come from.... as I havent been 'in country' since the 90s I am not sure what current usage in javanese or indonesian media is - but I think king is wrong, and either the local appelation of sultan/susuhunan/ or the more neutral 'ruler/raja' might be more neutral. But hey just my very skewed point of view. sats (talk)


I don't understand why this addition is considered as spam as long everything follows the guidelines. —The preceding comment was added by Myconiancollection (talkcontribs)

I appreciate that you read my message and would like to address it. But my response is: No, it doesn't follow this site's guidelines. Read don't tout. You might also want to read welcome, business owners. Business owners are most welcome here, but like all other volunteer editors, you have to function within the rules of the site. Read through those links, and then feel free to ask me questions relating to any details.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:43, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
P.S. Please sign talk page posts by typing 4 tildes (the ~ key) in a row at the end of your posts. Thank you.

Be Good

User talk:Ikan Kekek,

you should learn how to talk to others. beware of others capabilities and make sure to not involve your self in warnings etc.

See you soon. —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)

IK, I'm wondering what made this user to say this. Anyways, I've closed the edit-drive. It is not helping, rather people making non-constructive edits. --Saqib (talk) 17:31, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
I have no idea. It's always good for people to give context. But I suppose it has to do with a warning that someone is likely to be blocked if they continue to spam tout or edit war as a touter. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:26, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

style tags

Hi Ikan - I started going through the lists of articles that have a {{style}} tag with no suggested fix (see Category:Style tags without suggested fixes) and came across Baclayon, which you tagged in 2013 [28]. I wasn't sure why the tag was added, so can you either add a suggested fix for the style tag or remove the style tag if the issues have been resolved? Thanks! -- Ryan • (talk) • 05:08, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that worthy work, Ryan. I'm not sure why I added the style tag then, and I now try to give more or less detailed suggestions for style fixes when I insert style tags, but I didn't initially realize that I was able to do so. Anyway, I fixed the problems that seemed to be continuing issues in that article and deleted the style tag. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:21, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! The discussion at Talk:Albany (New York)#Conversion to templated listings got me wondering how many articles are tagged with style tags where no one is quite sure whether the problem has been fixed or not, so I spent some time this morning tweaking the {{style}} template so that it's possible to figure out when the "suggested fix" parameter is blank, and I then started going through some of those articles and removing the style tag where it isn't clear why it's there; over 150 such articles remain, so it's not a task I'm likely to get very far on. -- Ryan • (talk) • 06:29, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
I'll try to tweak "style" tags when I see them in articles without explanation and have the time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:31, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Jakarta will more severe traffic jams in rainy season

I live in Bekasi and sometimes go to Jakarta. From Bekasi to pay inner toll road fee in Cawang sometimes need 45 minutes. In rainy season, when rain and after rain, Jakarta will more severe in traffic jams, because floods or no floods because the water only maybe 5 to 10 centimeters above roads, but nobody can guarantee there are no hole below the water, so people drive carefully and slowly, many motorcycles have engine failure and many motorcycles avoid rain park below overpass and only give one lane from 3, 4 or 5 lanes for cars which run certainly slowly. The effect frequently make traffic jam occur up to 2 to 3 hours after the rain stop or at least one hour after, before no traffic jams. One traffic jam in certain location has snowball effect to traffic jams in other locations. If I don't mistaken Jakarta is one of the worst three of traffic jams in the world.Gsarwa (talk) 07:35, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that you posted that information in "Understand." It needs to be in the appropriate "Get around" section. The other problem is that not only would the text have to be moved, it also would have to have been drastically copy edited, and I simply didn't feel like doing all of that, so I deleted, with a request to you to at least put the edit in the most useful section. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:38, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
I'll be honest with you: I appreciate your helpful attitude and the fact that you add content, but just about every single one of your edits has to be copy edited, and I find that tiring. Sometimes, I find it a lot easier to just revert your edits. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:50, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
I added a very short summary (1 sentence) of your main points in the introduction to Jakarta#Get around. I think one way you can improve your edits is by trying to keep them as short as possible, without details that travellers don't need to know about. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:51, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your clarification.Gsarwa (talk) 14:43, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:17, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Appreciation and clarification for your comment on Varzaneh page

Dear Ikan Kekek,

First of all, thank you for your attention. Yes, the article is being copied and pasted. However, I am the author of the original article. Moreover, I will be preparing this article in a word file, completely written by myself and I have already published the majority of that in other wikisources, including wikitravel. Please give me some time, I will be uploading many of the images. I need to emphasize that I have much of your guidelines and it is necessary to mention that, many of the photos are captured by myself, or from, which publishes free licensed photos. However, the texts will be edited, and updated due to my frequent personal trips.

Please let me know or any other concern you might have. —The preceding comment was added by Mohammad-javad-Isfahan (talkcontribs)

Mohammad, your explanation is much appreciated. You would retain the copyright, since it's your own work. There are some special issues regarding Wikitravel, though. Please have a look at Wikivoyage:Wikivoyage and Wikitravel. In terms of how to deal with the image files, please have a look at the Upload Wizard on Wikimedia Commons and Wikivoyage:How to add an image. I'll look forward to seeing the progress of the article.
Thanks, and all the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:12, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Dear Ikan,

Again, thank you for you attention, and providing further information. For me, it was really important how wikitravel is kind of separated from other wiki projects. Due to your information, I completely understand it and I shall declare that now on, I put wikivoyage on a priority for any contribution, as now I feel that wikivoyage is completely independent, charitable website as a member of wiki family. I will be editing the page of Varzaneh, and I find myself very responsible to input correct and precise information from any other major travel destinations that I have. As for now, every single sentence of Varzaneh article is mine and the photos are mostly my job, unless it is precisely mentioned about alternative sources, in wikimapia.

Keep in touch, Mohammad

Again, much appreciated. Glad to have you here!
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:34, 29 November 2014 (UTC)


Since you're the site's most prolific patroller I'd be interested in your feedback at Template talk:Tout‎, even if it's just a simple "support" or "oppose" message. I've been meaning to put together a standard talk page message for touts for my own use for some time, but figured there was probably value in creating a site-wide standard. Thanks for any feedback! -- Ryan • (talk) • 06:31, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Recommended mid-sized city article with a good 'Get in - by plane' section

Hi Ikan, I'm looking at cleaning up the get in by plane section of Semarang as in my opinion it is too messy and have many unnecessary details - that table is eww..

Any good / star article to refer to as an example? I've been looking at some articles but ideally I want to see the section in a city article with similar airport significance (top 10 or so in the country, a trickle of international, mostly domestic - definitely not an airport needing its own article) Found the Hiroshima, Bali, and Copenhagen star articles. Can you point to a good article you could suggest for me to have a look and feel of how the section is supposed to be?Ditz (talk) 21:22, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

You could also look at Washington, D.C. and Albuquerque. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:13, 11 December 2014 (UTC)


Hi Ikan - I reverted the addition of the autopatroller flag for this user since the user's editing pattern matches that of 118.93nzp and W. Frank. So far as I know no other editors use the "WV:Aou" shortcut [29], none consistently change the spelling of "traveler" [30], etc. With the exception of accusations against NainTours [31] this latest account hasn't yet been disruptive, but based on past history I don't think adding an autopatroller flag is a good idea at this time. -- Ryan • (talk) • 22:24, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough. Thanks for explaining. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:52, 12 December 2014 (UTC)


Hi, Thanks for the welcome tips. I am finding a lot of properties not listed so I have been adding them to the talk sections. I was wondering if you have 5 mins and could take a look and confirm that I am approaching this in a way that shouldn't get me blocked from wikivoyage. example: —The preceding comment was added by VerbInteractive (talkcontribs)

In short, you are acting exactly according to policy. But in addition, for the benefit of people not familiar with the properties in question, please make a specific argument for each listing, and we can then come to a consensus on the talk pages and probably work this out to the benefit of travellers, you and the site. Thanks for working within this policy; it's a refreshing, unusual experience. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:41, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Thank you I will do that going forward, I was worried about that detailing the property might appear too self promotional. I will try to keep it factual. Thanks again. —The preceding comment was added by VerbInteractive (talkcontribs)
You're welcome. Just one request: On talk pages (and only on talk pages), please sign your screenname by typing 4 tildes (the ~ key) in a row.
Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:33, 15 December 2014 (UTC)


I may be wrong about the article but Kersa, Hararge is in Ethiopia.--Traveler100 (talk) 06:11, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Hmmmm...Well OK, let's check and see whether that mosque is in Ethiopia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:17, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
In web searches, I've found nothing about the mosque, nothing about the mountain, nothing even about Kosum and Dolu, where the article originally said "there are undergroun water." So I'm none the wiser. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:23, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
I also struggled to find anything. Only references to mosques I can find are in Oromo, which I cannot read. --Traveler100 (talk) 07:57, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
If that particular mosque is referenced in Oromo, then this place is indeed in Ethiopia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:11, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
I found nothing specific enough, also interpretation of spelling is a challenge. Suggest we wait and see if the contributor comes back with more information. I see they have done some edits on Wikipedia, en. and om. --Traveler100 (talk) 09:01, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
What does .om stand for? If that's Oromo, I think we should go ahead and restore the link you inserted and I deleted. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:03, 19 December 2014 (UTC)


hi lkan . this baner is 2000x 300 or 7:1 and true color what is problem? —The preceding comment was added by شاملو (talkcontribs)

Please sign your screen name on talk pages (only) by typing 4 tildes (the ~ key) in a row.
The problem is that custom pagebanners are replaced only by consensus on the relevant talk page. Please join the discussion currently taking place at Talk:Iran. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:13, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek:؛ Well, what results did? شاملو (talk) 23:34, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
Let's just discuss this more on Talk:Iran. This isn't just between you and me, and other people may have things to say. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:46, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek:؛ So we change the image and the feedback we have accepted?
@Ikan Kekek:؛ So do not be upset if I change the picture and we look forward to hearing others. ok? شاملو (talk) 00:01, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm not upset. We're just following standard procedure, which requires a consensus. Please be patient. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:26, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek:؛I'll give you one day soon proved wrong picture and then we change it. And you will agree. ok

Please stop contacting me about this. The discussion is at Talk:Iran. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:44, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek:؛ Dear friend, we had enough time, and I think you'll agree this is so intense Does? شاملو (talk) 19:10, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
I said, stop contacting me about this. The discussion in at Talk:Iran. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:34, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Pagebanner issues

Thanks for the heads-up. I was basically replacing one image I had created from another photograph with an image I had created entirely, and not many other people have an interest in that page. I'm certainly aware that one doesn't change a biggie, however, without some consensus. Daniel Case (talk) 07:12, 20 December 2014 (UTC)


You may be interested in a discussion taking place at User talk:Texugo#Sockpuppets, chased from EN wikipedia to here. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 16:27, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't recall anything about this though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:04, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Award for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Platinum disc icon.png Friendly User
Please accept this award!!! ;) Angellene10 (talk) 08:36, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Award for you!!!!!!!!!!!!

Star.png Deep Thinker User Award
Please accept it!!Thanks for helping me!! You are genius in editing!! ;) Angellene10 (talk) 09:04, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Award for you!

Bomb.png Ground Breaker User!
Accept this!!! Thanks for helping me!!! That's why Bomb because you're super super friendly for me .... ;) Angellene10 (talk) 09:33, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

An Award for you!

Gold record icon.svg A Diligent User for Me!
I will give you many awards!! and please give me awards at least 3 !! ok hahaha joke !! :P Angellene10 (talk) 10:01, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
LOL. Too many award. --Saqib (talk) 14:49, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
Thanks User:Angellene10. You're funny! Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:44, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your kindness!! ;) May I call you Kuya,if you are a boy,I call you Ate if you are a girl!! Agree?? I don't know if you are a boy or girl..Because in your User page,,did not tell me if you are Female or Male.. Please,say it to me,or leave a message in my talk page!! ;)Thanks Kuya/Ate !!! Angellene10 (talk) 01:53, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm a guy. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:11, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Talk back DLindsley (talk) 16:14, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome

Glad to get involved, used this site as a resource many times, figured it's time I throw something back in. One thing re: the specific details in the regional sections... Although I know it's not to standard, most of what I've been entering this evening are for locations in rural areas or towns with less than a thousand people - places that (I would think) lack the size to justify their own pages. Is it actually recommended practice to create pages for every one-horse town?

Jmackay80 (talk) 02:24, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

There are some exceptions: For example, Rural Montgomery County. That kind of solution is unusual but can work in certain circumstances.
All the best,
08:53, 27 December 2014 (UTC)



I'm a bit unsure about this spambot block:

The spambot appears to be on the IP, the block on an account with no contribs? While there's been no further WV spam, a look at suggests the IP is one which should be blocked if it's not already on any global (Wikimedia-wide) block lists. K7L (talk) 01:31, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Sorry to jump in, but the MarjoriClark account is definitely a spambot - see [32], which was originally created by User:MarjoriClark. I've blocked the IP as well as it also appears to be a spambot. -- Ryan • (talk) • 01:56, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. K7L (talk) 03:36, 28 December 2014 (UTC)


IK and Pashley. I've been told by User:Jianhui67 to remove the auto-patrol rights of said editor because User:Ttcf is indef. blocked and I think thats totally fine. Perhaps at some point, we may remove his blockage but its important to keep an eye what kind of edits he makes. While you both gave the said editor autopatrol rights, so please applogies if It offended you but as Ryan also said its better to hold off. If you still thinks, the right should be given back. Please do so. --Saqib (talk) 17:04, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Of course. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:49, 29 December 2014 (UTC)


Does something similar to it:Template:Photolist exist on en.voy? I'd like to translate the see section from Franciacorta, but I can also add photos manually. Thanks (also for your edit on Franciacorta) --Lkcl it (Talk) 13:07, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi, and thanks for your edits, too! I'm sorry, but I don't know the answer to your question. You might try posting to the Pub. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:57, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Help with dynamic map

I've been trying to figure out what to do about the dynamic map on User:AndreCarrotflower/East Side for a long time. Currently, even though I've trimmed down its frame so that the outer borders of the district are as close to the edge as possible, the map still seems too big. But if I expand the map to zoom level 12, not only does it become far less usable, but the portion of the map that would be covered by markers drops well below the standard 400x600 dimensions. Any advice? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:53, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm really not sure. I guess it's impossible to use decimal points in zoom levels? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:25, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Sorry for commenting unasked, I just saw your post. I don't really find the map that large. If it would be a short article, the map would soon be disproportionate, but you're not known for creating particularly short entries ;-) Usability is key. The map may be slightly larger than you'd like, but in my eyes it's not at all unacceptable if this the more useful zoom level. Just my opinion. JuliasTravels (talk) 20:33, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
Thank you, Julias. :) I was particularly concerned about how awkward the text looks, on my screen at least, stuffed in a narrow column to the left of the map. But I suppose it would be equally acceptable to simply center the map and have the the Understand section start immediately below it. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:04, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
That map barely fits on one page on my laptop, so yeah, I guess the size may be OK. How would it look on a cell phone? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:51, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
On my iPhone 5S it looks basically the same as on my desktop monitor. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:57, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
That's good. I favor viewability. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:59, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

(reindent) Better now? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:41, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Pinging JuliasTravels as well. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:42, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
That's really clear. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:24, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
Well, on my screen the text wasn't all that jammed on the left, so for me it didn't need the central position. However, if this solves the issues for your screen too, I'd say this is fine. And we'll see what happens when you have all the text complete, you can always judge then if you like it centralised or not. JuliasTravels (talk) 21:49, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
I also doubt it needs to be justified center. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:03, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
Buffalo East Side screenshot.png

(reindent) My screen has a 1024x768 pixel resolution. This is what the map looks like for me when it's not centered and when the width is adjusted back down to 450 pixels (it's at 600 currently, to cut down on the white space along either side of the mapframe). While it's not an absolutely unacceptable scenario, the text at left strikes me as a bit too squished for comfort. I was over at my mom's apartment earlier today; she has a widescreen monitor and the dimensions of the map were much more tolerable when right-justified. But all in all, I'd prefer a solution that's suitable for as many different display settings as possible. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:16, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

That's pretty convincing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:18, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
It's a matter of taste, I suppose. While the text is a bit squished in that screenshot, I don't find it unacceptable and would say the aesthetics are overall better. It's a bit of a trade-off in terms of screen sizes, I guess. The centralized one doesn't look so great on a wider screen, while the right-justified one is less great on e.g. your screen. I presume widescreen is most used now? Maybe that's something to take into consideration. Again though, it's better judged when the article is more or less complete. In any case we all agree you have nothing to worry about ;-) JuliasTravels (talk) 23:25, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

RE: External links policy (Meteora)

Hi, wasn't aware of that, sorry. The thing is that these are as "official" as it gets here in Greece, because unfortunately there aren't any websites of the Monasteries. Said that, I will leave the "See" section as it is now.

Cheers —The preceding comment was added by Kostaschasiotis (talkcontribs)

Thanks. Too bad about the websites. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:20, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Hilton Head Island

Hi Ikan, sorry about my edit there; it was mostly the position of the link that threw me off. However I've just read Wikivoyage's guidance on the matter, which does permit such links in that position, so it's all good. Graham87 (talk) 08:30, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, it's all good; it's not a self-explanatory thing at all.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:46, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

New discussion

Ikan stop editing, suggest first Atanuami (talk) 16:15, 23 January 2015 (UTC) Atanuami

Have you edited on a Wiki before? You're trying to order me around instead of engaging in dialogue. That's not going to work well. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:17, 23 January 2015 (UTC)


Indonesian articles are getting worse... sats (talk) 07:56, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't always have the patience to copy edit them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:02, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Yogyakarta traffic jams

Traffic jams in Malioboro street and through to North Central Park are severe in traffic jams, by limiting buses through pass make traffic jams more controllable. Indirectly it will make more difficult to travellers go inside to Jeron Beteng and make also tourist visits drop (has happen). Big buses are usually carry old foreign tourists and they are difficult to change to other moda or at least want always in a group and play safety and don't think they can walk along Malioboro street. Indonesia has rapid changing in tourism business and sites, so electronic encyclopedia, I think should be updated regularly and certainly it is different with old printed encyclopedias. Low-cost airlines in Asia article is not updated for years, it also same with Indonesia article when I first time contribute it. Thank you for your query.Gsarwa (talk) 14:48, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

This isn't an encyclopedia. All that travellers need to know is the current situation, as it pertains to them, with a bit of background that's interesting. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:03, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
I think you may be misunderstanding what this user is trying to say, Ikan? The point of the sentence he added is that you can't use the many tourist buses to get into Jeron Beteng or North Central Park, because they are not allowed to go there. That seems relevant? JuliasTravels (talk) 22:24, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Three things - the user adds from their perception as to what might or not be relevent to tourist esxperience in his/her/etc world, and secondly - in most cases Ikan has to, if he has the time, edit the entries to make sense of them in english. thirdly, Yogya has always been a nightmare for traffic, even thirty years ago when I first went there. As a potentially old foreign tourist now, I would expect that it hasnt improved, so I would not need to know the 2010s variation of a difficult time getting around the crowded streets. The nature of 'useful', 'helpful' or unnecessary information in non-standard english renders most Indonesian tourism articles difficult to apprehend, and at times incomprehendable mixes of potentially misleading information. It would be nice to think of the problem in positive terms, but its hard. sats (talk) 01:33, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
JuliasTravels, it wouldn't be surprising if I didn't understand what Gsarwa meant. To be honest, I often have trouble understanding what he means, though I certainly try. But my main point to Gsarwa, always, is please summarize and simplify as much as possible and if you have any doubt about whether something might be interesting to a traveler, leave it out. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:03, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you so much for the comments for all of you. Certainly I know diferent (may be not to much) between Wikipedia and Wikivoyage. When the first time I contribute wikivoyage I rather surprise that wikivoyage have no references, so I hope all the contributors are faithfully enough. I contribute when there are no other contributors contribute of the certain article. When I want to contribute something, I'm fast reading the article first and if there are contribution which it is better that I want to contribute, I always cancel my contribution candidate. But if my contribution candidate will be better as a contribution, I always combine my contribution and the contribution exsisted, because I'm an inclusionist and not agree with deletionism when it is not necessary, although to delete is easier than to be an inclusionist. IMO wikivoyage is rather out of date than Wikipedia. One of the benefit of electronic media is continous update. I don't know the structure of Wikipedia compare to Wikivoyage? Is the editor in Wikipedia and Wikivoyage is the same, and also the administrator? Wikipedia has good structure of Editor and also knowledge of English, such as Native speaker, En-1, etc. When I edited Wikipedia about optics in Photography, I know that who usually edit my contribution, throw the ball to who know well about optics. I don't know in Wikivoyage, when I contribute about Yogyakarta is also read and edited by who know well about Yogyakarta or not, but certainly is more difficult to Wikivoyage to try same thing with Wikipedia. But I notice when I mention about RV (Caravan), some one who know well about it and frequently use the RV, edit my contribution. Thank you again for reading it and I hope all of us have open minded well.Gsarwa (talk) 15:49, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Dengan Hormat Gsarwa, bahasa inggeris is not your strength... with the problem of some of your contributions, they might make sense to you, but to native speakers we do not understand. Keep it simple, keep your sentences short. Kalau terlalu lama, bingung!!! Please try to keep your sentences short, and try to understand the differences between Wikipedia english, and Wikivoyage. Often there are things that are interesting to your understanding of what might be useful information, but remember semua londo biasanya lihat cepat dan terus di luar dari disini for a very short time, stays in yogya have been always short. There are things people do not need to know for a short visit. Please understand, shorter sentences, and care with what your write. sats (talk) 16:08, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your wejangan. When I contribute to Wikivoyage Indonesia article, I ever contribute more than 7,000 (if I don't mistaken) characters in only one contribution (means Indonesia article is not updated well) and most of it has been reverted in several edits, so after that moment I frequently contribute certainly in least characters, but maybe is not clear, because when I try to contribute rather long, editors are understand, but sometimes they trim it and say it are not necessary to contribute to detail. In wikipedia maybe I have known the leeway, because I have known that every editors have different view about certain thing, although certainly they use same Wikipedia guidances. In Wikivoyage I am not yet find the clue. So, I stress to the context first, when I contribute to Wikivoyage.Gsarwa (talk) 04:16, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Gsarwa, to me the real issue is that if we had as many editors as Wikipedia, I wouldn't usually be the only person editing your work. I really can't do it by myself, so if I find it really too hard to make sense of, I revert it, and if I can make sense out of it but it needs a lot of copy editing that I don't have the energy for, I just leave it for possible later work. But I'll say this: If you are putting in information about the history of transportation in a particular place, I don't think it's relevant to the interests of a traveler now. If you are putting in details that are relevant to a bus driver but not to a tourist or business traveler in a private car, I don't think they're relevant to the interests of a traveler. If you're inputting information on likely routes to take to avoid traffic jams or the pricing and types of accommodation in different modes of travel, that is relevant and helpful to travelers. I'd advise you to write only the minimum amount of background necessary for a reader to be able to make sense out of the gist of your content. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:27, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you so much that you are frequently edit my contributions, I appreciate it so much. I don't know about the burden of work in Wikipedia and Wikivoyage. I only know a little bit that the active contributors in Wikipedia is only about 2,000 persons and in Wikivoyage maybe less. The editors and also administrators are frequently use several names including anonyms by using url number only. I'm an immediatist that I think it is needed in electronic media, so when I mentioned about compact camera market share declined and grab by smartphones, someone revert it, although there are sufficient references and in talk palk there are also comments that it is impossible. But the fact now it is true. I realize that inclusionist vs deletionist, immediatist vs maturist and context vs eloquent English will always happen. So, I think you are in the right position as I do also, but maybe different principles and different point of views will always make us in slight different places(I hope it is not a lot).Gsarwa (talk) 15:57, 26 January 2015 (UTC)


Hi, Lucky102 here. I did not do anything, and I did not make my account for spam. I am an editor on wikipedia under the same username so that is why lucky102 is my username. If I edited an article it was either to improve it or fix a spelling or grammar mistake. Hope this answers any queries and my account can still go ahead. I actually edited the article about Nenagh to a much higher standard so I don't know why it was deleted. Lucky102 (talk) 15:14, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm confused by your message. User:Lucky102 has exactly 3 contributions. That account has no deleted contributions. I did, however, recently delete this spam that User: put up in place of where your user page would be. No-one is allowed to put up a page on another user's user page, least of all a spam page. Furthermore, that IP user has no contributions, only the one spam page I deleted. So what is it that you're really requesting? Your account clearly isn't blocked, as you posted the message above. Please go ahead and edit! Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:35, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
Hi again. Phew, I must have read that wrong! Could you please revert the Nenagh article to the way I edited it, as it improved on every section and it included a few photos. Thanks :) Lucky102 (talk) 13:25, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
Now I'm even more confused. User:Lucky102 has no edits in the Nenagh article on Wikivoyage, according to its revision history. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:15, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
I mean the IP edits Lucky102 (talk) 11:18, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
I have no idea which IP edits you're talking about, but you've spent a lot of time asking me to do something you can do yourself - namely, edit an article. Please do it yourself. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:59, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
On the Nenagh article the IP edits were deleted, by you presumably, due to you leaving a message on their talk page. I cannot edit something to the way it was if I cannot remember it, ergo asking you to put it back to the way the IP edit was... Lucky102 (talk) 11:54, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
I have no edits on the Nenagh article, as you can see by looking at its revision history, which I linked above. I really don't understand what you're talking about. The spam I deleted on your user page started thusly: "Prompt service on writing essays..." If you'd like to edit the Nenagh article, just do it. I consider this matter, whatever it is, closed. Thank you and goodnight. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:59, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Lucky102: Perhaps you're talking about. --Saqib (talk) 12:37, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, Saqib. Perhaps that link will solve the mystery. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:05, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Lucky102, I suggest you check out the edit history of Nenagh. There you can find who's edited the article and when, plus the content of each edit (by clicking "prev" next to the edit you're interested in). BTW here is the last IP edit on that article. Is it you (i.e. have you been editing from Brisbane, Australia)? ϒpsilon (talk) 13:12, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Ypsilon No, those are not my edits. My edits were more recent than 2013, but they are not in the history at all. Lucky102 (talk)
Did you look at the Wikitravel link? We keep records of deletions here. I have never seen a situation in which anyone's work on Wikivoyage vanished without a trace, so I doubt this'll be the first time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:14, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
The IP you posted earlier ( is in Ukraine, and I ain't in Ukraine... It is the wikitravel link. Lucky102 (talk)
Lucky102, as Saqib earlier suggested, maybe it is the Nenagh guide on Wikitravel you've been editing, then? Wikitravel is a completely different travel site. ϒpsilon (talk) 11:45, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Deleting spams

When you delete spams, it is good idea to blank the box below boilerplate reason so that actual spam message does not appear on deletion log. — Revi 16:09, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I didn't think of that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:10, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
If I am correct log is not something that can be searched from Google (and its' friend) but precaution is a good thing. :) Next time you delete them, make sure to blank the box! (It doesn't take long time, does it?) — Revi 16:15, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
No. I don't think anyone is doing that. Maybe this is something to bring up at the Pub. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:24, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Oh, is it too hard for you to just blank the box for precaution? You want discussion for this simple thing? I do blank the reason box when I delete things (where I am admin...), but I don't want to make pointless and never-ending talk like this, so I will stop here. Happy editing, — Revi 16:36, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
I think that Ikan's point about discussion is that if it's something admins should be doing then it should be brought up in a place that will get more exposure than his talk page. Personally, I think it's a preference thing - I usually don't blank the box so that others can get a sense of what's being deleted. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:45, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, I think it may be good not to delete, for record-keeping. Also, I just recently had occasion to refer to the beginning of a deleted spam - see the section immediately above this in this page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:52, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

New discussion

Thanks Ikan —The preceding comment was added by Rberchie (talkcontribs)

You're welcome. Thanks for contributing to articles about Ghana. We need them.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:33, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you

Thanks for giving me autopatroller rights, Ikan! Much appreciated. -- Half past (formerly 'SUFCboy') 17:08, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

You're welcome. I looked at your posting history, and it certainly seemed warranted.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:14, 24 February 2015 (UTC)


Oh no, I didn't have a DotM nomination in mind (though upon considering it, that certainly would be nice!). I just noticed it was in bad need of some copyediting and decided to make a little project out of it. :) PerryPlanet (talk) 08:12, 26 February 2015 (UTC)


Thank you so much for your guidance. I have corrected it and made addition, hopefully it will be better, but some trim or make it concise maybe neccessary. Your guidances are important for me, so I know exactly which ones should be improved.Gsarwa (talk) 14:57, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks on DF

Thanks for the correction on DeFuniak Springs. I was thinking the two pictures under each other would make the text look wonky, but that wasn't the case, so goody. :) Anyway, appreciate the continued kind words. It's stuff like that which makes folks want to keep contributing. Cheers! :) --Ebyabe (talk) 16:38, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Who John Is

Hey there, thanks for removing references here. I didn't realize that was the case until I happened to see your edit just now, I'll avoid using references in the future.

John is a local who lives in Roche Harbor and drives people to/from Seattle with the Island Airporter service. I'm not sure if that makes him authoritative at all. Feel free to remove if it doesn't meet standards. For the sake of my own understanding, what *would* make someone an authoritative source on where to get a good margarita on sleepy island? :) Does WikiVoyage allow for local tips/recommendations in any form?

Thanks again :)

--KrystleChung (talk) 21:10, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for writing, Krystle. Yes, local recommendations are absolutely appreciated, but they don't have to be cited. However, feel free to add a single phrase explaining who John is, if you'd like to keep the citation. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:26, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Awesome. Thanks for the response! I made this edit, do you think this helps? --KrystleChung (talk) 05:07, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
The date of the assertion isn't needed; that's the kind of rigorous citation that's used in scholarly papers. I'll see what the current version is and edit a bit. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:18, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
I'll admit that when reading and editing the entry, I still had the feeling of "So? Why is the opinion of a bus driver who happens to be local any more authoritative than anyone else's opinion?" But I'll leave that for others to judge. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:21, 3 March 2015 (UTC)


I was looking at the "Recent changes" and started to wonder something is missed. Offcourse edits of IK are missing. But when I came across your user-page, I started to laughing out loud becuase you always have one issue: Your computer issue. Well, Wikivoyage is seems incomplete to me without you, so I hope you'll be back soon and this time with a replaced computer. And yes, Lenovo suck! --Saqib (talk) 16:25, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, they're giving me an epic runaround. I'm typing this from my girlfriend's laptop, which has its own issues. I hope the problems are resolved soon. Thanks for the sympathy. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:03, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Rankin Inlet

Hey there! just wanted to say thanks for fixing up my translation of Rankin Inlet. Nice to have someone picking up my mistakes haha. Hshook (talk) 10:22, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Glad to help, and thanks for adding all that great content! It would be great to have another Off the beaten path feature from Arctic Canada in due time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:25, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Bonifacio, etc

Apologies for the mess. I've got some list of POIs in Corsica, so I wanted to share it, but I need to be careful with "translations". -- Vadp (talk) 18:26, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

It's OK. It's good to get the content up. Corsica is an under-covered region on this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:22, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

detout or delete

Agree should not allow touting but should we not just detout and not delete? Wondering about actions such as here. I only see one contribution from the user, we are too small a community to discourage new users. --Traveler100 (talk) 05:53, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Feel free to detout it if you like. I don't feel that single-hotel touters add much to this community, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:41, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Back off!

I̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶n̶t̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶s̶t̶o̶p̶ ̶u̶n̶-̶d̶o̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶e̶d̶i̶t̶s̶,̶ ̶p̶l̶e̶a̶s̶e̶.̶ —The preceding comment was added by DAZ14LPA (talkcontribs)

As near as I can tell, Ikan is simply making edits in accordance with our manual of style. Do you have a specific instance where he "undid" one of your edits recently? Powers (talk) 23:08, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I̶ ̶q̶u̶i̶t̶.̶ ̶I̶ ̶r̶e̶s̶i̶g̶n̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶n̶o̶w̶.̶ ̶I̶ ̶k̶n̶o̶w̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶'̶r̶e̶ ̶g̶o̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶s̶a̶y̶ ̶"̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶b̶r̶o̶u̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶s̶e̶l̶f̶"̶;̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶f̶r̶a̶n̶k̶l̶y̶,̶ ̶I̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶e̶.̶DAZ14LPA (talk) 20:05, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Happy trails. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:46, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
I̶'̶m̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶h̶a̶p̶p̶y̶.̶ ̶D̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶g̶o̶ ̶p̶u̶l̶l̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶m̶e̶.̶ DAZ14LPA (talk) 22:10, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Forget everything I said. I owe a sincere apology; had I known you were an "alpha-dog" in the Wiki-communities, I would've stopped this whole thing before I started getting angry. If you want me off the website, and nominate me for banning, go ahead; I won't shed a tear, and I deserve it. One last thing to apologize for, I never meant to say that I quit, I was extremely frustrated that my edits were deleted that I blamed you; I was such an idiot, and once again, I'm sorry. If you don't take the apology, I'll be fine; I'm just glad to get it off my chest. DAZ14LPA (talk) 19:41, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

I am not "the alpha dog"; that's your misjudgment. I am simply one of a bunch of administrators who's a volunteer editor like you, and because I'm particularly active in the Wikivoyage:Recent changes patrol, I quickly noticed the great edits you were making and also the instances in which you were deviating from consensus procedures, and let you know about both. And the only problem I have with you is that you want to be an exception to any preexisting guidelines you don't want to follow, and then you quickly and increasingly became hostile, just because of completely normal edits that were explained to you, with links to policy pages. I'd rather that you neither be hostile nor self-deprecatory, and simply have normal interactions in which everyone is respecting consensus and working toward making this site better. If you can't do that, then yes, you should probably frequent another site such as your personal blog, which wouldn't require you to interact cooperatively with others, but I have never had a desire to throw you off the site and still don't, if you would just act cooperatively. And finally, there is really no need for us to talk to each other at all. Just make your edits, I'll make mine, and leave the drama off this site, because it has nothing to do with making the site better. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:28, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks a bunch for helping me set the record straight, IK. PS, I owe you. DAZ14LPA (talk) 20:36, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

No, I really don't think you owe me anything you don't owe any other user here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:39, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Okay, then. DAZ14LPA (talk) 22:23, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Oh, almost forgot to respond to the Uber thing you commented on: The Melbourne to Stuart thing on the Port St. Lucie page isn't necessarily relevant, but shows how far they are planning on expanding, and if you go from Stuart or Melbourne back to where you are in Port St. Lucie, this is where they plan to go. Sorry I forgot to talk about that. DAZ14LPA (talk) 23:42, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Editing guiding templates

Is there any template to put into section, so that it asks to be expanded? Soshial (talk) 16:57, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Please give me an example. Do you mean listing templates or templates like {subst:welcome}, which are used to welcome new posters? In what kinds of ways would you like to expand the templates in question? Some listings are too complex to fit well within a listing template and may work best as subsections of an article. Xi'an#Daqin Pagoda is one example of such a listing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:28, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
Something like this: w:en:Template:Expand_section. Soshial (talk) 19:25, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, I understand. But is there any article in which it's not obvious that a section should be expanded? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:31, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
For example, almost the whole article is finished, but some sections needs a bit of expanding. Soshial (talk) 21:13, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
It might be a good idea. Have a look at Wikivoyage:Using MediaWiki templates#New MediaWiki template proposals. You'll be able to use the template initially in a single low-traffic article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:26, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
Couldn't find exactly the one I was asking for :) May you point it out? Soshial (talk) 15:37, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
I thought you'd just import the template from Wikipedia. I am not knowledgeable about the technicalities of templates, so I probably wouldn't be able to give you more technical advice. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:17, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Warning to Newbys

Here's a summary of my experience on Wikivoyage. I found Wikivoyage a few weeks ago and thought what a good idea it was. I spent some time in the sandbox and reading various guidelines encouraging me to pitch in, and not to worry about getting things wrong, and telling me about the friendly and helpful community. I then thought about what I could add that would be useful to others, taking care to follow the relevant policies. Since there were a couple of tours that I went on last year that I could thoroughly recommend (because they provided lots of interesting information that was otherwise unavailable) I added them under Carcassonne and [Albi].

I checked back later to see if my edits had registered OK. There were no messages saying thank you for your effort. No message of welcome to the community. Nothing. Not even my edits. It took me some concerted effort to figure out that they had been deleted ("reverted") by Saqib. No explanation. No suggestions. No encouragement. Nothing. So I put the edits back and ask why they had been "reverted". In response they were once again reverted by Saqib. No explanation was given other than a link to Listings#Tour_listings, the policy on Tour listings. This was a bit puzzling because my edits obviously did comply with the policy - 100% as far as I could see. Anyone who knew the two places listed and who looked at what the details of the tours involved would have seen this immediately. On talk, I therefore asked this question "Saqib, Could you please explain why you are reverting my edits, even though they comply with the stated policy, as you will have known if you had followed the link included". But Saqib was clearly too important and too busy to provide a response.

Instead, a response came from Ryan. No welcome. No offer of help. He said that there were two "issues". The first was that "guided tours are generally only considered appropriate when the destination cannot be visited without a guide.". This of course is not true. What the policy says is that Tours can be listed on Wikivoyage as long as they constitute a value-added activity. If a traveller could fulfill the substance of the tour on their own, the tour should not be listed. (my emboldening). As I kept pointing out, my edits complied fully with the stated policy at Listings#Tour_listings, (since they do constitute a value-added activity and a traveller could certainly not fulfill the substance of the tour on their own, even with all available audioguides, guidebooks, and everything else available). Ryan's second "issue", was that "the tours are being added as advertising for a tour operator, which is considered touting and is strongly discouraged...". I looked at touting and found that my edits did not count as "touting" under the policy. I was then, and am now, completely mystified how anyone could read either edit as advertising or touting.

I was so annoyed that I asked how to complain. My assumption was that Saqib and Ryan must be just kids messing about and that a responsible adult would be able to put them right. But no. There is apparently no complaints mechanism, so if a group of kids fail to understand a policy or get some wacky unwarranted idea into their heads, or take a dislike to you, or just decide to back each other up irrespective of the facts, then there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Of course, neither Saqib nor Ryan responded to my key point - that my edits were in line with stated policies. Instead of addressing the points made, Ikan Kekek now joined in and said this

"In any case, it looks to me like you may be ignoring this fundamental part of the tour policy Tours can be listed on Wikivoyage as long as they constitute a value-added activity. If a traveller could fulfill the substance of the tour on their own, the tour should not be listed.

The idea of quoting back to me the fundamental part of the policy that I had myself relied on and emboldened was little short of malign genius. Ikan Kekek then added

"That means, if individual travellers can see these Cathar-related sights without hiring you [sic], you [sic] don't get to list your [sic] tours or your [sic] company. As it further states "In practice this policy disallows listing most[...]guided tours since the substance of such tours can generally be fulfilled by an independent traveller[.]".

I don't need to belabor this, but Ikan Kekek has gone to considerable lengths to ignore the "value added" criterion and the key fact that the substance of these tours cannot be fulfilled by an independent traveller - the whole point of the policy. He is now firmly convinced that I own a tour company. I find it difficult to believe that these are genuine errors.

Normally, if three out of three separate people suggest that I'm in the wrong, then I tend to suspect that they are right. But I have looked pretty carefully at this over the last few days, and there really is no question about it. I don't believe that Saqib, Ryan or Ikan Kekek have understood the policy (which is simple enough), or visited the places concerned, or even bothered to consider what might constitute value added in this case. I might have thought this was just wilful ignorance, except that all three have all gone out of their way to ignore or misconstrue every point I have made, and have then invented a pretty zany excuse to justify their mistake - my "obvious anger" proves that they are right!

So Saqib, Ryan and Ikan Kekek, I have no idea how your minds are working or why you you might want to behave like this. Frankly, I find your behaviour baffling. I'm sure you'll be delighted to learn that I will not be troubling you or Wikivoyage ever again with eccentric ideas about basic courtesy, listing attractions, adding value, complying with policy, or with my "obvious anger" or indeed with anything else.

ErnieNode (talk) 17:31, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Please explain how this tour represents "value added" under the tour policy. Merely asserting that it does doesn't convince anyone. We want more editors, but there's another factor, which is that we've had quite a lot of experience with people coming to this site to spam or advertise. There are ways to productively work with us. Whether you choose to do so or not is up to you. I can't address your criticism of other admins on this site, but I can certainly say that I have no "malign" intent. As far as I'm concerned, the ball is in your court.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:10, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

An award for you!

Barncompass.png The Wikivoyage Barncompass
Thanks Prof tpms (talk) 09:42, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
Thank you, that's very kind. And thank you for adding content! Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:31, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
Congrats, IK! You deserve it. DAZ14LPA (talk) 00:01, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

An award for you!

Barncompass.png The Wikivoyage Barncompass
Prof tpms (talk) 09:43, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, but it's really not necessary. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:55, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
Excessive usage of Wikilove is not good! --Saqib (talk) 10:54, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
Honestly, what I'd much rather have is a discussion on User:Prof tpms' user talk page. I appreciate that the professor is obviously reading his/her user talk page, but the discussion has been quite one-sided so far. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:58, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Am I doing something wrong?

IK, am I doing something wrong in regards to editing? I see you put me on the vandalism page, and even thinking of banning me, and I would like clarification on what is happening. I just apologized to you, and I tried to clear up confusion on that page; can you help me understand what exactly is going on? Like I said, I never meant to say that I quit; I was just frustrated especially since this was my first time on a big website. But, just answer this: am I doing something wrong? Let me know as soon as you can. DAZ14LPA (talk) 20:40, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

DAZ14LPA: I don't think IK has nominated you for banning. That was another guy so relax and enjoy crafting your userpage as you usually do. --Saqib (talk) 20:55, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. Sorry for putting undeserved words in his mouth. DAZ14LPA (talk) 21:59, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, nothing to worry about now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:53, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for clearing up the confusion, IK. See you around when I mess up, he he...just kidding. DAZ14LPA (talk) 21:33, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Port St. Lucie

IK, I need your help with the Port St. Lucie page. As you know, I've added lots of information to the Port St. Lucie page, and I need your opinion on whether it is an outline or a "usable" article. If there is anything needing to be improved on, let me know as soon as you can, please. DAZ14LPA (talk) 11:54, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Have a look at this: Wikivoyage:City guide status
Port St. Lucie is clearly an Usable article. Possibly even Guide. ϒpsilon (talk) 12:53, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
Thanks a bunch. I'll go update it, if not already. DAZ14LPA (talk) 13:14, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
Sorry to bug you again about the PSL article, but should more topics be added? Basically, should I add "Cope", "Connect" and add information under "stay Safe"? Let me know as soon as you can. Thank you.
Cheers! DAZ14LPA (talk) 22:22, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
Have to ask, but have you set up a voting system on Wikivoyage? I'm asking because I thought of some idea to finally get a banner on the PSL page because I have no pictures of the city without violating copyright. If so, can you give me some tips? Thank you. Donny (talk) 19:10, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
Voting is not something we do very often here on WV. Especially not for "small" things such as pagebanners for individual articles (we do sort of vote for destination of the month banners for the main page but that's an entirely different thing). Banners are added to articles on a first come, first served basis. If there's an absolutely terrifying banner on some article, people can start the discussion on the article's talk page and come up with suggestions for a better one.
Concerning Port St. Lucie, if you have some photos of the city yourself, why not make a banner of one of those? Making a banner is not very hard. ϒpsilon (talk) 20:09, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
I don't have any pictures. It's not like I can flag a cab or I have a bus stop near me. Any picture I get is taken down due to the stupid "copyright laws". I know how to make a banner, but it doesn't work on this old computer I have. Getting a picture in a good area is very difficult. Any picture I attempt to take gets blocked by traffic or my camera dies when the elements are perfect. You understand my dilemma, right? Donny (talk) 23:31, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
We do sometimes discuss which of several proposed banners is better, but if there is no custom pagebanner on a given page, it's preferable to post something even if discussion is ongoing between two or more alternatives. My suggestion to you would be to look for good pictures on Wikimedia Commons that you could turn into banners. If there are none, you may be able to copy a free-to-use photo from a site like Flickr. There's some information on Wikivoyage:Banner Expedition, especially the first section of Wikivoyage:Banner Expedition#How to make a quality banner. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:56, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. I'll do my best. Donny (talk) 15:15, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
Uh, no pictures were taken in a quote-on-quote "good" spot; not trying to say Flickr sucks as a website, but no one really bothered to take a picture of the well-known areas. BTW, thanks for helping out with the PSL article and giving tips about certain sections, which will come in handy. See you around, -Donny (talk) 19:21, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
Sure thing. I wouldn't be offended if you said Flickr sucks, but I'm sorry if it does in this case. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:34, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Airport taxis unhappy for short distance

Legal taxi aiport in Soekarno Hatta International Airport should queue about 3 hours to get passengers, so the drivers want long distance passengers, and unhappy for short distance. And who queue for passangers cannot refuse passangers for short distance, so frequently the taxi driver says with unhappy to the passengers that he has waited for 3 hours and get only short distance passengers, alternatively some short distance passengers choose illegal taxis who don't need to queue, certainly with haggle.Gsarwa (talk) 17:24, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I get your point now, but I didn't when you posted it. But I'm not sure it's really that important to explain in detail to readers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:11, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
It's OK. Not everyone want to know about the system.Gsarwa (talk) 05:01, 14 May 2015 (UTC)


to cause you extra work with "signing" my contributions on talk pages! (Sometimes it's forgetfulness and sometimes it's diabolically slow INMARSAT connections that lose cache information. 12:43, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

It's OK. I occasionally forget to sign my own posts, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:40, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

An award for you!

Barncompass.png The Wikivoyage Barncompass
Thanks for helping this new user with my post about Dufur, Oregon, USA. I appreciate your input and comments. JosiahEDean (talk) 18:16, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
You're welcome. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:02, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

United States of America#Cities

Hey, IK. I'm responding about your question about my trivia about New York being the most powerful city in the world. I was alluding to Wall Street, in fact, but it is also a major city in the fashion world, as well as one of the most visited cities in the world. If you wanted that information instead of "most powerful", I'm glad to have cleared up the confusion. Thanks a bunch. Donny (talk) 23:38, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

That makes sense. Add a few specifics to the description if you like, as long as it doesn't exceed a single sentence without period. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:26, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
Awesome. Thanks, IK. Donny (talk) 09:40, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Your attitude

You have a very long history of high-handed, patronising and borderline aggressive behaviour to other editors. Please remember that Wikivoyage does not belong to you, and your behaviour is contributing to driving away editors. —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)

What is your basis for this vague claim? Powers (talk) 15:14, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, a specific complaint would be more useful than a completely out-of-context remark by an IP with very few posts and no user talk file that might be able to help provide some kind of context. Most of the people who've complained about me have been touters or users who believe they should be able to individually disregard Wikivoyage policies at will and resent moderation in general, while many other people have thanked me for giving them helpful pointers. If you have a specific complaint, you're more likely to get that resolved by addressing me with it specifically than by acting like you represent a class of aggrieved people, instead of simply and authentically representing yourself. Thanks, and have a good day. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:29, 21 May 2015 (UTC)


  • I went ahead and alpha-ordered the Novgorad sections and made see/do listings with a little bit of text for a couple of them Matroc (talk) 21:26, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
Thanks a lot. Of course, there are still many naked names, so I hope User: or someone else who knows anything about these places comes back to turn them into real listings. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:04, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

My trip to Munich

Thank you for your answers to my questions about what to do in Munich way back in January. I went to the BMW Welt and BMW Museum and had a great time there even though I'm not a car enthusiast (I don't even have a driving licence). I also went to Augustiner-Keller on Arnulfstraße to eat and drink beer. The whole experience was great. Munich restaurants sure know how to make great sausages. The next day, I went to Bratwurst Glöckl for lunch. This time I drank Spezi instead of beer because it was so early in the day. But the sausages tasted great there too. My main program took so long that other than that, I only had time to shortly visit a small part of the Englischer Garten and the Haus der Kunst. In the Haus der Kunst I almost got trapped because I wanted to see what the Kinder- und Jugendprogramm was like, only to find it was closed, beyond locked doors. The door I had come in through seemed also to have locked itself, but with enough force, I managed to push it open and go back where I came from. I have no idea what I would have done if I had actually become trapped. JIP (talk) 19:03, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Wow! That was a little too exciting! I'm glad you had a good time. I love that Augustiner-Keller! Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:25, 26 May 2015 (UTC)


Thanks. I didn't know! Best regards. :)--Asqueladd (talk) 15:11, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

That's why I told you. :-) Have a good day.
Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:24, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Wikivoyage, Central Dhaka, Page Banner

I think my page bannercovered the entire length of the page, do have a lokk again. --Rangan Datta Wiki (talk) 07:01, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

It didn't before, at least on my laptop. Now it does. Thanks a lot for your valuable edits!
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:22, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Magnificent Morocco

Trophy.png Magnificent Morocco
Hi, Can you tell me why my listing was removed and what i can do to get my listing onto this page? I see that I Go Morocco is still on the page and their business is no different to ours? Magnificent Morocco (talk) 09:50, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Which page, please? The answer is likely to relate to this site's policies on tour listings, promotional language or external links, but I don't recall which of these applied. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:53, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I posted on the page, my listing is no different to the one above it, and it keeps getting refused for various different reasons, the latest one was the website address, however if you look at the listing that is already there, their website is for their tour company. Please can you tell me how I can get properly on wiki? I also want to place a banner somewhere too. We are a genuine business and I want to do things right. —The preceding comment was added by Magnificent Morocco (talkcontribs)

I posted to your user talk page, and you should read that post and stop edit warring, please. This site does not allow listings for tours that an independent traveller could do on their own without too much trouble, but does, for example, allow desert camel safari operators - but not mere ticket brokers - to list in the article for the place where their physical office is located. General tour companies simply are not allowed to list on this site, but if you do fall within the exception rules to this site's tour policy, you still cannot use promotional language, or your listing will again be reverted. At this point, I think it's important for you to post an explanation of why your company should be allowed a listing under Wikivoyage's policies in the talk page for the article where you want to list - and note that you cannot list on more than one page, at most. You need to read the relevant policy pages carefully before you do anything else on this site. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:19, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
As for why the tour company in the "Learn" section has a listing, it's because it looks like it offers Arabic courses, but I see at their link that this is false, and their listing belongs in "Do" and should focus on their desert tours, which are considered "value added" under this site's tour policy - which, again, you need to read. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:23, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Response from Sarr Cat

Your very welcome! I enjoy contributing across many wikis, plus openstreetmap, this is my first day on here. Glad My edits are appreciated! (I don't know if the same talkback templates from Wikipedia work on here, so I just decided to respond here!) Sarr Cat (talk) 01:07, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

The Talkback templates work, but a direct response is less trouble. :-)
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:16, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

If they work, why didintchya use one??

Heheheh! :P

Sarr Cat (talk) 01:24, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Eh, I don't like them. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:37, 11 June 2015 (UTC)


On June 10th and 11th 2015 I, TheCribHostel, added myself to the list of budget places to sleep in the city of Plovdiv on the page titled "Plovdiv." Both times I erased the section on a "competitor" named 'Hostel Mostel.' After being unable to respond to your warning and threat against this, Im writing here to tell you that Hostel Mostel no longer exists in Plovdiv but only works out of Sofia and Veliko Tarnovo. I therefore thought it positive to rid the city's article of obsolete information.

Please consider my words, check the validity of my statement if you like, and allow me to make this contribution to my city's page here on WikiVoyage.

Thank you, TheCribHostel —The preceding comment was added by TheCribHostel (talkcontribs)

Whenever you make an edit on this site, there is a long, horizontal rectangular window just below your edit screen that says "Summary:". When you make an edit that deserves any kind of explanation, always type something as an edit summary, so that you don't run into this kind of problem. It's really not up to volunteer users to spend time finding out non-obvious things like this. So go ahead and reinstate your edit, but make sure you type a brief explanation in your edit summary. You may include "Also see discussion at User talk:Ikan Kekek". Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:51, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Attitude problem

Ref: (diff | hist) . . Ouagadougou‎; 00:50 . . (-75)‎ . . ‎Ikan Kekek (talk | contribs)‎ (→‎Get around: I'm not sure how the poverty of the country is related to good driving.) Thank you for the above advice. Even though I don't suffer from any attitude issues, a small negligence can make the people of some countries feel that they are not honorably treated. I understand the importance of such care and niceties. Prof tpms (talk) 02:44, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't really get it. My feeling was that you were implying that it was to be expected that a poor country would have bad drivers, and therefore, that it was to be complimented that in a poor country, they surprisingly drive well. That seemed like a backhanded compliment to me, so I thought it was best to simply say that they are bad drivers and not mention the poverty of the country in connection with that. Maybe that was only my reaction, but I don't really understand your point yet. When you're talking about small negligences, are you referring to the people of Ouagadougou, and/or are you making a complaint about me?
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:11, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, what I meant was that a small negligence from my part should not hurt the sentiments of the Ouagadougou‎ people. I was trying to clarify that your point of view is broader. Prof tpms (talk) 07:22, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I see.
I feel like Mark Twain speaking about how America and England (or in this case, India) are divided by a common language. :-)
Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:27, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, a lot of confusion can come even though we learn branded British English in our colleges. The thing is that all Indians are strongly influenced by the structures of the Indian languages which are entirely different. Prof tpms (talk) 14:24, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Bus booking agent links

It's against the rules to list Gotobus as a booking agent here as it clearly states that third parties should not be listed. Also it kind of sad that we are linking to a tool for finding bus companies that are often shutdown and operate in violation of the FMCSA and the DOT. Sounds like a great experience waiting to happen for a first time US visitor =/ —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)

That would be a reason to de-list Gotobus, not to list another booking agent for Amtrak and regular bus services, which can be easily booked on websites of Amtrak, Greyhound, et al. Make your argument at Talk:United States of America, please. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:43, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Gedong Sate

When I was a kid, I frequently played around Gedong Sate and there were no fence before, so I know exactly which part of the building image is taken. To take image of front of Gedong sate, nowadays is rather difficult due to fences and heavy traffic of Diponegoro street.Gsarwa (talk) 15:43, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Right. That wasn't my point. "The behind" makna punggungnya! Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:49, 26 June 2015 (UTC)


Hi abang nama saya Bobby dari Afrika selatan dan saya ingin tahu kenapa km revert edit saya tentang Gautrain. You see, I wanted to write in detail about Gautrain since I use it everyday to and from work, and I also think it would have been great for me as a person who lives and work in Johannesburg to make this contribution since I have experience about this, you can answer in either bahasa or English I stayed in Indonesia for yearsBobbyshabangu (talk) 14:51, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

We usually have no articles on individual rail lines or streets, unless they are destinations for travel all by themselves. We also discourage articles about individual even state owned and de facto monopolist companies. We do however have travel topics along the lines of rail travel in Germany or Rail travel in South Africa. You can very wall handle the Gautrain as part of such an article or as a paragraph in the get in and get around sections of the city/cities and/or region(s) it serves... Best wishes Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:37, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Hobbitschuster covered it above (thanks, Hobbitschuster). Unless there's something truly unusual about the Gautrain that would make it an amazing experience in itself, it's unlikely an article about it would pass this site's What is an article? test. Here in New York, we have a commuter rail called Metro-North. Its Hudson Line has beautiful views, yet we have no separate article on it, and that seems right to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:16, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Chisinau Eat undo

Hi Ikan,

I see you undid an edit I made to the Chininau page, and am a little unsure why.

I was trying to change the address of an eaterie from 120 of a particular street to 130. I actually went to the place about 10 days ago, and originally I couldn't find it due to the incorrect address ... although I later found it by accident the next day!

I don't mean this message in a hostile way, if I've done something wrong I'd like to know why so as to avoid mistakes in the future. Thanks.

FTMDave (talk)
Hi, Dave. The reason I reverted your edit is noted in my editing summary: "Don't delete unused fields in templates." When these unused fields (e.g., "phone") are deleted, that causes confusion for other editors who may later want to fill them. However, I see the address change you mentioned. I'll change the address back from 120 to 130.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:13, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi Ikan,

thanks for the clarification. I think I must have deleted "120" and then pressed the delete button some extra times without meaning to and accidentallly deleted a field! I certainly didn't intend to.

Live and learn and all that, I'll watch out in the future!

All the best to you too,

FTMDave (talk)
Thanks for understanding and for contributing! Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:27, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

That one IP User...

I see that you have come into contact with a certain IP User, whose edits while not overtly malicious do seem to be controversial. In addition to contacting him on his talk page (I don't think he reads edit summaries), what should we do? After all creating an article of a city as a "continet article" does not seem to be an innocent mistake... Or am I seeing ghosts? Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:13, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't know. Eventually, it's possible to block the user in question. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:14, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Another potentially problematic user

While I assume good faith, the recent edits of User:Gol929 appear problematic to me. Could you please have a look, as well as at talk:Mongo, I fear I don't currently have the patience to deal with her/him... Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:24, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Why are you people trying to boot me from this site i love to travel. --Gol929 (talk) 13:25, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
This is not my intention at all, but it seems you are doing that yourself, with what you recently said at my talk page. Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:29, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Sorry iam just frustrated. --Gol929 (talk) 13:30, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
I was busy enjoying Pasadena today. It looks like Ryan took care of the situation. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:31, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
I hope you had fun. Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:28, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
I did, thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:34, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

An award for you!

Barncompass.png The Wikivoyage Barncompass

I am new to wikivoyage and I don't know how the talk thing works.. I was in Changchun for 2 days at the end of last month, and yes there are a lot pine trees around~ They are also building the metro and constructions here and there. I am native Chinese thus I don't have experience of local's English. But Chinese overall speak better English now than 10 years ago~ I didn't see many western tourists during my stay, and the ones I saw I believe they were Russian. Changchun is not a tourist city like Shanghai or Beijing, and yes people there are less pushy~ cheers~ Iyoo (talk) 06:44, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, you're doing fine. You can just post on a talk page like on any other; no need to use a barncompass unless you really mean to do so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:47, 7 August 2015 (UTC)


Thank you for putting this article in the proper place. I had not created a town or village article for some time and got rusty at it. I plan in the next few days to flesh this article out. I once lived in London Colney, another Hertfordshire village. I will create and flesh out this article, as well. A friend of ours lives near Westmill and several times while we were in Hertfordshire on holiday (we live in Florida), we were driven through the village. It's a scenic place that deserves to see people who like to find things off the beaten path. Wpollard (talk) 12:40, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for starting the article! This site depends on people like you to create the content.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:48, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Beijing/Dongcheng sleep listing

Hi Ikan,

a couple of times recently you've edited what I've written, including today, always in a courteous and informative way.

I'll try and learn from your advice, as I value Wikivoyage when I travel myself and try to return the good work when I'm on holiday/vacation.

Thanks again for explaining where I'd gone wrong - I'll learn for the future!

All the best,

FTMDave (talk)
Thanks for helping out, and for having a great attitude!
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:33, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Editing Pigeon Forge Listings


I noticed that you removed the listing for cabin rentals added to Pigeon Forge. I did not add a description this time to avoid "touting." Are there other guidelines I am missing? Or a previous decision about this page that I am unaware of? "CabinsUSA (talk) 14:08, 24 August 2015 (UTC)"

Not adding a description is not good. The way to avoid touting, as it's defined on this site, is to give objective descriptions only, without slogans ("for a unique vacation experience") or 1st-person language ("we offer"). If you haven't read the guidelines at Wikivoyage:Don't tout, you should, because it will answer most of your questions. Also have a look at welcome, business owners. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:06, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for directing me to these resources. I will edit the listing to make it more compliant with the standards. ("CabinsUSA (talk) 15:15, 24 August 2015 (UTC)")

Good. And thanks for putting in the effort. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:16, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Dots below horizontal ToC

Is the row of dots that has appeared today below the ToC headings in the banner in preparation for a new feature - or is the CSS temporarily screwed? BushelCandle (talk) 19:13, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Now fixed by User:Wrh2. BushelCandle (talk) 19:45, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

WARNING for beirut Article

Do you know that tourists even afraid when a child whizz!--Sonia Sevilla (talk) 09:12, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

you have the right of editing on articles of places you have visited.--Sonia Sevilla (talk) 09:21, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
I have the right to edit any article, as do you. If you have information suggesting that the U.S. State Department warning is excessive, please go ahead and share it, but our practice is that when there are governments that have warnings, we share them and let travelers make up their own minds, so I think it would be improper to take out that warning entirely. Instead, it would probably be a good idea to check websites of other governments that issue travel advisories, such as Canada, France, Australia, the UK, New Zealand, and India and add links to their advisories, if any. However, all of this can be discussed on Talk:Beirut. Give your opinion, but be respectful of other Wikivoyagers, as that's the way you're most likely to convince them that your argument is in good faith and persuasive.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:37, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Delete my user page, please!

I agree entirely with your edit summary of "It's inappropriate to edit other people's user pages, because those are solely for a user to introduce him-/herself. Instead, edit their user talk pages - those are for communicating with them." and I suspect that this may well have been User:Rakibhasan786 trying to be helpful and posting in the wrong place after forgetting to log in.

However, I would prefer that you delete my user page entirely (until such time as I choose to create it) because then it will at least be "protected" by the standard warning that it should only be created by me.

Sorry if this causes you work, Ikan! BushelCandle (talk) 12:26, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

No problem; happy to help. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:54, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, Ikan! BushelCandle (talk) 12:56, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
You're welcome. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:56, 4 September 2015 (UTC)


Sorry about mangling the image syntax - I was editing while on a train and my thumbs were just too big for the tiny touch screen! BushelCandle (talk) 09:46, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

No problem! Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:46, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for being so understanding and for keeping an eye on things. BushelCandle (talk) 16:28, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

regarding your question

In the edit summary at [33]: if you ask it on talk, I'll show it to my students (who are going to expand this article) and ask them to answer. Cheers, --Piotrus (talk) 05:49, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Excellent. Thanks, Piotrus. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:51, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Would you mind helping to break a logjam...

--AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:16, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I made a comment, but I'm throwing it back to you guys to try to work out a compromise, as I think both of you have good points. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:58, 13 September 2015 (UTC)


In which article could I add this beautiful panorama as a banner? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 14:02, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Good evening. I'm not Ikan, but if the camera location parameter in the photo's description is correct, the geographically closest article we have would be Dead Horse Point State Park ϒpsilon (talk) 14:51, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
Done. ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 23:22, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for taking care of this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:31, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Ok(Ansan edit)

I admit my mistake. By the way, I don't completely understand what you're talking about. As I am not good at English, I feel so sorry! —The preceding comment was added by Gong Ju-young (talkcontribs)

I appreciate the note. Don't feel too bad; there are quite a few users here who don't have advanced English knowledge. Please ask me any question I might be able to help you with. (By the way, on "talk/discussion" pages like this one, please sign each post at the end by typing ~~~~.) Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:58, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
Wikivoyage:Travellers'_pub#We_have_some_Korean_guests_on_board :) ϒpsilon (talk) 12:12, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, ϒpsilon. I'm well aware of the project and indeed welcome all the participants and look forward to working with them more. Thanks for posting that great note in the Pub. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:15, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Welcome msg

Thank you for welcoming me. Nobody did that on Wikipedia (where I'm currently on wikibreak). Eat me, I'm a red bean (talk) 23:59, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

You're welcome! I hope you enjoy it here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:54, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Cotton Club

Ikan, might I prevail upon you to restore the listing of the Cotton Club to the Manhattan/Harlem and Upper Manhattan article? While I understand it's south of the nominal dividing line, it seems perverse to so strictly follow our somewhat arbitrary district boundaries at the expense of including the establishment within its proper historical and geographic context. At the very least, the Jazz section of the Harlem article needs to mention the Cotton Club, even if it links to a different article, don't you think? Powers (talk) 19:26, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

I like your second solution better. Mention it. But if you feel really strongly that it best serves the traveler to make an exception for the Cotton Club, I won't fight you on that, even though I grew up in the West 90s and always considered 125th St. the dividing line between the Upper West Side and Harlem, that far west. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:45, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
You know the area better than I, but this seems like an obvious case for an exception, given the proximity (we're talking mere feet from the boundary, aren't we?) and clear cultural connection with the other Harlem jazz venues. Powers (talk) 18:08, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
Are you not satisfied with this edit? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:41, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
I would still prefer to see the listing restored, but if you feel strongly about maintaining the centerline of 125th street as an inviolable boundary, I could live with it. Powers (talk) 01:29, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
I just took a look at the district maps, and neither one includes the little triangle where Dinosaur BBQ and the Cotton Club are located. (The main Manhattan map does show the triangle as part of the Upper West Side.) I'd thought both were considered part of Harlem, though. Powers (talk) 01:33, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
They are not, according to loads of maps I've seen going back quite a long ways, as well as the general opinion of people in my neighborhood when I was growing up. What do you believe the dividing line is? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:04, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
If you feel strongly about making both sides of 125th St. be in Harlem, go ahead, though that is not the traditional dividing line, going back a long ways. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:44, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
I have no idea where the dividing line is. I just know that when Dinosaur was opened it was publicized as being in Harlem, and that the Cotton Club is strongly associated with Harlem. And just to be clear, I'm not talking about both sides of 125th street all the way to Central Park; just the little piece north of St. Clair. Powers (talk) 23:43, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
I think the simplest thing to do, if you want these places listed in Harlem, is to make both sides of 125th St. part of Harlem. I don't think it's historically accurate, but no-one will really care that much and it's not like there's any drastic difference between the two sides of the street. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:52, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Well, with due respect, it does sound like you care at least a fair bit, and unlike me, you've actually been to the area. I respect your opinion a lot, and I don't want to make changes to the region boundaries that aren't warranted. But at the same time, I think it's important to put establishments in the article where people are most likely to look for them. Powers (talk) 18:28, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
The Upper West Side is the neighborhood where I grew up. I lived there for decades and maintained a connection with it for as long as my parents lived. So yeah, I've been to the area, alright. But I'm saying that despite the strong opinions of Upper West Side natives like me, a single side of a street doesn't really matter much. If you'd like to respect my points, the solution is to mention the places on the south side of 125th St. in the Harlem article and refer readers to Manhattan/Upper West Side. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:42, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps we should get additional input. Which talk page would you suggest? Talk:Manhattan? Powers (talk) 19:34, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
That would be the best one. Feel free to point to this discussion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:35, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Yongin edits

Thank you for your comments. I corrected my edits like your advice. However I will fill the addresses, phone numbers, URLs section. Please give me more time. Ji-soo Seo (talk) 09:49, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Certainly. Take your time, and thank you.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:54, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Iquitos article.

Hola Ikan, I've updated the article of my city, Iquitos in the Spanish Wikivoyage. I wish your help to get the status of Star Article. May you help me? --EdwinJs (talk) 21:08, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

My Spanish is not so good and I've never visited Iquitos, so I'm not sure I could help you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:23, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

A Barncompass for you!

Barncompass.png The Wikivoyage Barncompass
Thank you for your tireless contributions. --Rubbish computer (talk) 00:00, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. Happy to help. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:08, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Jensen Beach

IK, I hope I don't come off on you as pretentious, but I do understand your edits on Jensen Beach, and I would just like to clarify some info with you. First, Jensen Beach is a Census-Designated Place (CDP) in Florida, and the US Census counts the population of this place every 10 years, and is not included in the yearly estimates, so it's population is, technically, current until the next census. Second, I wasn't sure whether to have used ALL CAPS on the Caution; I thought it would've gotten the point across, but if it's not "recommended", then so be it. Thanks for taking time to help with these articles, and letting me know what to improve on. Donny (talk) 20:01, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi, Donny. No, none of this comes across as pretentious, and I considered my edits minor, anyway. :-)
Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:22, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, man. Donny (talk) 23:50, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Sure thing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:27, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Paris postcodes

Hi Ikan. I was thinking, wouldn't it in fact be better to include the postcode in all Paris addresses? I know there are only 20 in the whole city, but they are needed for postage and they quickly tell a traveller on the ground which arrondissement they should head to (I'm sure you know this, but just in case you don't "75012" means "Paris, 12th Arrondissement". So, hence my partial revert of your edit. Merci, et bon dimanche --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:12, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, you're actually right. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:27, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, Ikan. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 07:16, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

About User:Illinoisboy18

Greetings Ikan Kekek!

Thought I'd like to tell you that Illinoisboy18 (who made this administrator request here) is currently blocked indefinite on Wikibooks for this confession, who has also wrote the same message on Wikiversity, after requesting to be a sysop on Wikiversity. Just thought I'd tell you about this.

Thank you --Atcovi (talk) 23:01, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate the notice. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:06, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Nuremberg Zum Guldenen Stern

Just to point out. It is temporarily closed (since the summer), due to reopen 1st November. --Traveler100 (talk) 20:49, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Oh, in that case, my deletion should be reverted, with a note about the temporary closure and scheduled reopening. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:51, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
I took care of it. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:53, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Wishes and thoughts about WV

Hi. How are you? Roland is going to meet a guy from the community team of the WMF tomorrow or the day after to talk about the future of WV and checking out opportunities to support WV in a better way. Its short term planned, because the guy will happen to be in Berlin these days. Does the English community have some ideas/wishes (e.g. map/mobile/offline features)? -- DerFussi 09:40, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm good. I'm not sure offhand. Perhaps if you post to the Pub, some other folks may have ideas. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:58, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
Done... Thanks. -- DerFussi 11:44, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

How're you ?Long time no see?Yan Linn Naung (talk) 04:54, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Just fine, and I've been active on this site. Anything on your mind, or did you just want to give me a friendly hello? :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:13, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Protracted break

Sheesh, a range of issues, but now back, will be in earnest returning to try to make head or tail of australian articles and things, trust all is well.

Should be in earnest, editing in the next day or so. sats (talk) 01:29, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm doing fine, and it's great to hear from you. I hope everything is OK. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:44, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
The level of enlgish tense issues in indonesian article should be enough to keep the fervour for a good duration JarrahTree (talk) 08:07, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
I'm glad, because I just cannot handle all the edits by myself and it's mostly been me, while you and User:Othello95 have been experiencing that mysterious thing called "real life". :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:09, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
sheesh the Indonesian material is monumentally bizarre - the Go Next in most developed indonesian articles is touting with a grab bag style and no sense of direction or even cartographically verifiable next system

surakarta is weird... the insistence that something is best got to by car is a bit overdone in lots of the arts as well.

more than chipping away, wow this is something bigger than merapi and merbabu on a hot day, I'll need a big drink after reading some of the contradictions in some articles :( JarrahTree (talk) 23:24, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

If this were Facebook, I'd "like" your post. Are Templeton rye, Woodford Reserve bourbon or Blackwell's rum available in your neck of the woods? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:04, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
I suspect I am too poor for all of them, I got hung up on Iced Wine in Niagara Falls country 6 years ago, havent really moved on from that since I am so broke...JarrahTree (talk) 08:50, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
I haven't checked ice wine prices lately, but I suspect none of those are nearly as high-end as ice wine. For example, you can easily get a bottle of Templeton in New York for under $40. Actually, I think all three of those cost less than $40 a bottle. Another excellent rum in the same price category is Zacapa, from Guatemala. And of course a bottle of liquor goes a lot further than a bottle of wine, except for people who are alcoholics or otherwise really hard-core drinkers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:43, 5 November 2015 (UTC)


I wrote that offline on my laptop (on a train, actually). Will format it soon. -- Vmenkov (talk) 05:52, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Excellent. Very diligent of you! Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:53, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

user pages

If you had chosen to have investigated or to have had a conversation, I could have told you that this person had added the same or similar spam-like action xwiki, and that I had addressed this with the user at one of the wikis. Within WMF it has not been the approach to encourage advertising or components outside of the scope of the site, is that different at WikiVoyage and you encourage the addition of irrelevant promotion?

Where a user wishes to have a generic type user page, then they can follow the guidance and put one at meta, and have it transclude across the wikis, and then not pollute search engines with promotion. Billinghurst (talk) 23:04, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

If you had chosen to type an explanation in your edit summary, we wouldn't have had to have a conversation. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:33, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
I'll delete the page. Next time, you can use Template:Delete.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:57, 6 November 2015 (UTC)


It was kind of already divided by regions, and yeah, i think the word "but" before listing a bunch of cool shit has the intended meaning of being negative. I'd also like to note that California's is pretty lengthy too. It will be reworded at some point. It makes Florida sound retarded. -Mathew105601 (talk) 01:05, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

It's OK for you to reword, but please keep it to a single sentence w/o period. I don't agree on "but", though. You'd prefer "and"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:07, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
Alright keeper of the US page, I'll have to go back to the drawing board. You threw a wrench in my original plan. "and" isn't going to fix it. You don't have to believe me, but the way it is currently worded implies that North Florida is part of the South and lacks sandy beaches and the finer things of Florida, which certainly isn't the case. My idea was to fashion a few sentences to try and capture a unbiased fact based description of the state, which is pretty culturally diverse. Mathew105601 (talk) 01:16, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
I'm not the keeper of the page. I gave you the policy reference. Had I not reverted your edits, someone else would have done so very quickly. Anyway, I don't have to agree with your point of view for you to edit the 1-liner listing. Go ahead. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:22, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
Like every description on the USA page has more than a sentence. So I really disagree with you. What the hell Mathew105601 (talk) 01:25, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
I see that some of them have 2 sentences, but your edit was just too long and complicated, more appropriate to the Florida guide. Anyway, if you really disagree strongly with me, the best place for you to argue is Talk:United States of America, because I (or you, or anyone else) can revert edits unilaterally, but I cannot approve edits unilaterally, as anyone else could revert them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:30, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
No, I will reword it. I can see how it was a mouthful. I've been a member for years and recently I've been blocked on a few things. It just got me frustrated. I'm going to see if I can boil my points down to a more reasonable size. Sorry for being an asshole. Mathew105601 (talk) 01:36, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
That message got a chuckle out of me. No, you weren't and aren't an asshole, just passionate about your state, which is great! See what you can do to improve the listing, with my blessing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:59, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
Its not perfect, but eh? "Much more dynamic than its 1,200 miles of sandy beaches, Florida is culturally rich offering a diverse range of destinations and visitor attractions, including major resorts in Central Florida, Caribbean-influenced South Florida, and Southern-influenced North Florida." Mathew105601 (talk) 04:16, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
It seems to me to be less specific than the current text, as it no longer mentions the Everglades, the resorts of Orlando (Central Florida is less specific), or retirement communities. It strikes me as a little bland. We need a balance between the necessity of generalization in this context and not saying things that are so general they don't really give the reader much of an impression. You might seek other people's feedback at Talk:United States of America, as there are others who know Florida way better than I do, and perhaps as well as you do. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:40, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for offering tips

Have a nice weekend. Litbott(talk)

You too.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:54, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

An award for you!

Barncompass.png The Wikivoyage Barncompass
Thank you for helping my article, Daebudo. Your contribution is really helpful to me! Thank you. Misokkkim (talk) 02:45, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
Sure thing. That article is coming along nicely. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:30, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Yan Linn Naung

Hi, Ikan Kekek, How's your days? Yan Linn Naung (talk) 08:53, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

OK, a little sad about all the murders around the world. And you? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:27, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Orlando page

Thank you for the update. I will refrain from adding city names if a site is within the city page. I will use Asian instead of Oriental. I live in a very multicultural area and some Asian businesses use Oriental in their names and many Asians use the term freely. As you surely know, usage of English words can vary considerably from area to area. I lived in England and found a few words or terms used in the US and UK that cannot be used in the other country, as they are taken as insults. Actually, I am gathering British terms and plan to write about what they mean, as Americans can be totally lost when some terms are presented to them. Anyway, I am committed to writing information in Wikivoyage and Wikipedia that is completely correct and unbiased. Wpollard (talk) 02:07, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I do know these things, and thanks for your reply. Of course it's absolutely OK to use "Oriental" when it's part of a store's name.
Also, we have an English language varieties article that you'll want to look at.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:33, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Judaism Article

Hi there, I just wanted to ask you for your opinion on something as a Jew, since I do not want to make any edits that would seem disrespectful to your religion. For the Judaism article, how much do you think is acceptable as far as mentioning the difference between archaeological findings and the biblical account go? I have been reading quite a number of articles about biblical archaeology, and many of the findings seem to contradict the biblical account. For instance, the bible describes David as a great king who ruled over a united Jewish kingdom of Israel and Judah, but according to what I've been reading about the archaeological findings, Jerusalem was only a village at the time King David was supposed to have ruled, so based on that, he would only have been a village chief. I understand that this is a very sensitive issue, and from a religious point of view, the biblical account is something that you should believe without question. So I would just like some advice on how I could approach this subject in the article but at the same time be sensitive to your religious beliefs. The dog2 (talk) 03:24, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, I'm a secular Jew, but I think the proper thing is to present the beliefs and the science. Don't hold back. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:38, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
I think our current articles on the monotheistic religions reflect a bit on the apparent composition of our most prolific editors (i.e. them being mostly secular / moderately religious). However, it may well be that at some point some person might complain about us "badmouthing" a certain religion by showing how the modern science disagrees with the "holy books"... Anyway as for secular Jews, I've once heard the joke of two Rabbis (it can also have been a Rabbi and a member of the congregation) discussing for hours whether god exists... After a long time they agree that (s)he/they doesn't. But by now they've become hungry and grab a bite. So one of them speaks the customary blessing before beginning to eat and the other replies "Wait why are you speaking the blessing? I thought we agree there's no god...?" Says the first one: "Well god, no god, you just can't eat without speaking the blessing". I found that hilarious and though I don't know many Jews personally, I am tempted to say that there is a kernel of truth to that joke... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:44, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Hobbitschuster, sorry for replying late to this. My godmother is a Modern Orthodox Jew, and she told me that many Orthodox rabbis are agnostic and some are even atheists. Judaism is a religion of laws, and if you follow all the laws while not believing in God, you are Orthodox. In that respect, Judaism is very different from Christianity, in which faith in Jesus Christ is basic. Though I don't mean to suggest faith has been unimportant in Jewish history; in fact, I believe it's only because of zealots who preferred to die than give up their religion that Jews still exist. Otherwise, the Jewish people would have all converted to the local religion and ceased to exist as a people with their own identity. Yet another contradiction. Here's another Jewish saying for you: "If you have two Jews, you have at least three opinions." Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:49, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
Yeah I've heard the saying about the two Jews and three opinions" and even the Judaism and Atheism being compatible in some cases... Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:21, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

San Jose | San José

If you go to the official website of the city, you'll realize that San José is the most used and official name. It also appears in the seal of the city. —The preceding comment was added by Salvaeditor (talkcontribs)

There's no accent on the website for the San Jose Convention & Visitors Bureau. I again suggest that you make your argument at Talk:San Jose (California). You'll need way more than one person's agreement to make this kind of change, so even if you convinced me, that wouldn't be enough by itself. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:45, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
I don't have any opinion on how the name should be written but I believe User:Salvaeditor by the official website of the city meant the city government web page, and not the one for tourism. There the name is occasionally written with an accent on the e. ϒpsilon (talk) 16:55, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. On that site, the accent is used only some of the time (not in all caps). Anyway, the issue would be not what the official name of the city is, but what the most common usage in English is. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:00, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
To chip in: The real academia de la lengua española (yeah I know, they have no business regulation how Americans spell stuff) explicitly says that on upper case letters the "´" becomes optional. So I would not focus too much on the way it is spelled in upper case letters. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:47, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
OK, noted. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:08, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

padang bai

an ip reverted two entries for diving - maybe they dont exist anymore but as there was no edit summary, simply reverted, fyi JarrahTree (talk) 23:45, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

I think those had URLs that were dead. Check them and see. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:14, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
oops - thanks for that reminder JarrahTree (talk) 14:10, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
No problem! Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:20, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Article undeletion request

Hello, currently we are working in a training workshop in Christ University, Bangalore. The articles you have deleted recently, could you please undelete the articles? As the articles have been deleted, we are facing trouble. And it seems the IP has been blocked as well. Please have a look onto it soon. Thanks. --Titodutta (talk) 09:27, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

  • The IP address is --Titodutta (talk) 09:29, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
Thank you very much for contacting me, but I must decline your undeletion requests, because undeleting these articles would be a violation of Wikivoyage policy. Please read Wikivoyage:What is an article. This is not Wikipedia. Not everything merits a full article on a travel guide. If Christ University is an interesting place to visit, it should be a listing in Bangalore#See.
However, I will provisionally unblock the user who recreated a deleted article about an art bungalow or whatever exactly it was.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:33, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Thanks a lot for replying so fast. Yes that makes sense. We are asking to work on userpage or sandbox. --Titodutta (talk) 09:37, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
Thank you very much. I'm so glad there's a good explanation for what just happened, because I was afraid it was an attack of page-creation vandalism. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:38, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
Yes, we are taking care of it. We are asking students to create articles in userpage or sandbox now. Thanks. --Titodutta (talk) 09:54, 26 November 2015 (UTC)


i am having a very complex argument with myself about which locations are worh going to for cheese in oz. complex. unresolved. JarrahTree (talk) 08:38, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Take your time. No-one will push you on this. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:41, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

edits to Jinotega

Seeing that you have partially reverted the edits made by an IP to our article on Jinotega, I will now try to explain my dilemma: On the one hand, the editor in question seems to have been there and there is surely some value in their additions, on the other hand, their English seems to be limited as does the ability to differentiate between Jinotega the town and the equally named departamento. And some changes to the lede just make no sense to me... However, I think I am sometimes a bit harsh with newbies, so I am seeking your advice... Hobbitschuster (talk) 07:21, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

I think that it's fine to include information about other places in the departamento, if there are no separate articles about the towns in question. Maybe it's good to give the new user some latitude to put in the edits s/he wants, within reason, and then when s/he seems to be done, edit the article as you see fit and leave a message on the IP's talk page thanking him/her for his/her edits and explaining your reasoning for editing them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:24, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
I posted messages to the talk pages of the user's 3 IPs (so far). Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:33, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Deleted entrances

Hello, i have noticed that you erased my entrance, even while you have some options, you are not showing every option and if you are deleting one, you should be erasing all of them. Otherwhise, you look like you have some interest with the other links. Please un-delete my entrance. Kindly, Alex. —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)

I'm glad you've stopped edit warring and are now communicating with us. Which other entry should I delete and why? You are not going to be able to list in more than one article, I believe, based on this site's don't tout policy. If you believe you have a good, non-promotional argument for why you should be allowed to list in cities where you (I believe) have no physical office, make the arguments in the talk pages for those articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:37, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your prompt response. If you take a look at this: section "get in", you will see that i only recommend another company, there are 4 companies, and i think that if you have those 4, then other companies should be allowed to do the same, but you erased only my colaboration. —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)

On talk pages, please "sign" your posts by typing 4 tildes (~) in a row at the end.
I have no idea what you are talking about in regard to the Tulum guide, which mentions no private transfers from the airport or anywhere else, just buses and a collectivo. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:26, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
Anyway, you are using the wrong argument. If other listings are in violation of the don't tout policy, that doesn't mean you should also be allowed to violate it, but that their listings should be deleted. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:26, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

A large fierce older and large Czech woman who looked like she was still in the cold war

Toilet attendant for one of the darkest and gloomy loos I have encountered (apart from the outdoor urinals in Yogya, but hey thats another very long rave) a railway station on the way to crakow in Poland, the few minutes I was in the Czech republic to go to the toilet before the train ventured into polish territory, finger gestures for 1 or 2. She was going to charge me more for 2. I was trying to be obtuse, obviously it didnt work for you - thats fine, at least there is a mention of attendants. Some of the nicest most pleasant public loos that I have used in the world are personed by pleasant people taking small amounts of money, the Czech one wasnt. JarrahTree (talk) 15:02, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Just make the point more clearly. It's a relevant story; I don't think it's unique to charge more for the toilet than for the urinal. I think I recall correctly that a public bathroom in the Munich Train Station required a larger fee (or probably just a larger deposit) to enter the area with toilets. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:13, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
Good point, the whole article is careful and I was trying to be javanese and elusive (should that be allusive) and not as specific, but yes. Clarity JarrahTree (talk) 23:09, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
You should have gotten to know my neighbors in Terengganu. They were not allusive. When someone who had been in the house was not there and asked about, the response was "Dia gi berak". Do you understand? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:28, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Links from Commons

re: Special:Diff/2904177/2904197 Is there a process in place to link to Wikivoyage from Commons? c:Template:Sisterwikivoyage exists but it isn't clear to me if it should be used only when a non-category page exists on Commons, and how specifically it should be used. If we have any documentation on Wikivoyage about this process please include a link on WV:SEO as it would definitely be helpful to include links from Commons. -- Ryan • (talk) • 01:31, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I always put the Commons category in manually. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:53, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Just to clarify, are you talking about linking from Commons to Wikivoyage, or vice versa? The WV:SEO advice is for the former. -- Ryan • (talk) • 05:58, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
To Commons from Wikivoyage. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:04, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying. Since we don't currently have any clear guidance on linking from Commons to Wikivoyage I've changed WV:SEO to just refer to Wikipedia again. -- Ryan • (talk) • 06:11, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
I often build the Commons link by matching the article's Qnnn with Wikidata and pull the Commons Category property 'P373' then check Commons link in sidebar and if correct make the link permanent in the WV article - (To Commons from Wikivoyage) - Matroc (talk) 07:17, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
I don't know what these things are. I just go to Commons and do a search on the name of the place. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:29, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
I do that as well or edit the article - run a template script, build the Commons link, verify and save - as long as we get there with the correct info, its all good!! - Matroc (talk) 18:54, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
I don't get them to roam; they just do it. 

Ha. ̴̴̴̴-Prof. Shareef 08:47, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

;-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:54, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

"Undistinguished-looking motel"

Re this: I suppose it's justified, as I haven't really expanded the listings for that article, but that's no "typical motel". The Explorer, by contrast, is widely considered Yellowknife's best hotel (it should really be classed as "splurge" at CDN$183 a night, honestly). The British royal family stays there, rather than the local Days Inn, whenever its members go to YK.

I know it seems boxy and boring, architecturally, but it sits on about the highest spot in central Yellowknife and has great views (like this late-hour sunset I took quite a few views of on the one "night" I was there. And as for its appearance, that sort of boxy style is typical for the city ... partly because most of its major buildings went up during the early 1970s when that was the thing, but also (I suspect) because that way they are easy to keep warm when temps get down to -50º in the winter as they have been known to do.

Basically, what I'm saying is that the Explorer is a local landmark that any resident of Yellowknife would probably expect to see pictured on a travel-guide page for their city. Daniel Case (talk) 18:15, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining all that. I'll revert my edit. If you could add that information to the listing for Explorer, that would be great.
By the way, unrelated, but is my behavior on Commons OK? The man who took the photo whose bokeh I objected to as making me physically dizzy and opposed featuring said I was using an unfair criterion for judging a picture. Seems fair to me, but what do you think?
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:19, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
I have no problem with it. And I don't think other people do, either. Daniel Case (talk) 04:54, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, Daniel. It's interesting to take part in those discussions, more as a viewer than a photographer. I've done some photography and enjoy it, but I'm nowhere near the level of the really great photographers on Commons. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:12, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

New nickname

Please note my new nickname Prof. Manna (talk) 00:58, 18 December 2015 (UTC) Prof tpms (talk)

So I saw. You plan on giving gifts from the sky? ;-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:00, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, it is the name of the hamlet where I lived in my childhood. Prof. Manna (talk) 01:39, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

That makes sense. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:43, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Logjam breakage

Ikan, would you mind putting your two cents in to this discussion? PrinceGloria and I have been butting heads on the Stockholm issue for a few weeks now, and it seems we're at an impasse. As you know, it's a tough tightrope to walk having most of us Wikivoyagers basically defer to me on DotM-related issues, yet striving to make sure we all understand no opinion counts more than any other, which makes it awkward when I have to advocate very forcefully for my own POV. I think an impartial third-party opinion would be very helpful. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:08, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

I'll have a look. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:16, 22 December 2015 (UTC)


Do we need to block? Have removed link to private page. Should we not give the user a chance? --Traveler100 (talk) 11:07, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

No. That's an absolutely typical format for a spambot. Have you been doing a lot of recent changes patrols and noticing numerous spams of identical format? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:14, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
Do we maybe want to think about documenting blocks on user pages? As I did not notice any pattern. --Traveler100 (talk) 11:22, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
Try looking at the block list for users blocked as spambots. Restore their deleted user or user talk pages to read them, then re-delete them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:26, 1 January 2016 (UTC)


While I'll agree that "expressway" is more common in New York, "freeway" is indeed used. For example, this sign on NY 590 North in Rochester. Powers (talk) 01:40, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. I appreciate the info. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:34, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

"Diving in South Australia"

Hi Ikan Kekek. Thanks for reverting the recent changes to Diving in South Australia - the removal of information about particular service providers is unconscionable. I have the following comments. Firstly, I am the editor who started the article and who has made most of the edits since its creation. Secondly, I must point out that the "Dive Shack" and "Snorkel Safari" are in fact the same business. It originally started as the "Dive Shack" and changed to "Snorkel Safari" which the business moved its premises from Port Noarlunga to the centre of the Adelaide metropolitan area. Snorkel Safari is actually the name of a national chain of dive stores which has outlets in most Australian capital cities. Based on a recent conversation with one of the store managers, the business has reverted back to the Dive Shack name along with some changes that has not been publicly advertised. I will made the necessary changes to the article at an appropriate time in the near future. Regards Cowdy001 (talk) 10:32, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Excellent, and thank you. I hope you have a great 2016! Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:54, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Aarhus (immigrant gang issue)

Hi. As you have dicovered, I tried to supply some important information for Middle Eastern visitors, regarding the nightlife. While I think it is useful information (many residents of Middle Eastern descent have complained for not being let in), I didn't wanted it to overshadow the more general information in the section, and tried to include it as a "note". Is there any way to do this on Voyage? Could it be mentioned in a more discete way somehow? Thanks. RhinoMind (talk) 22:03, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for all the great work you do, and for reaching out. You could use the Infobox template, but I think that will actually call more and not less attention to it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:46, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Metro Atlanta

  • My friend, I had to reread the article three times to see any mention to Athens. I honestly thought it was a silly joke. Sorry again :( Ibaman (talk) 19:39, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Next time, do a simple word search. Were you unaware that there is an Athens (Georgia)? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:42, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
No no, I have always been a fan of B-52's and REM, and know where they come from :) but honestly thought it was farther from Atlanta. Ibaman (talk) 19:46, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
That was exactly the IP user's point. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:47, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Bay Area public transit—under construction

As you noted, this wiki is small enough that there are not many edit conflicts. On the other hand, the Bay Area public transit article needs a lot of development, and I am hoping others will jump in. As my editing sessions on it, so far, have tended to be long, I've copied {{In use}} to my user space and am uncommenting it in the article when I will be editing. I would like to do the same with {{Under construction}} and hopefully move them both into Wikivoyage template space (after making needed changes). I think those two templates will be useful as WV scales up. For now, I called {{Under construction}}, knowing it would red-line but thinking this would at least alert people to the fact that some sections that might look kind of complete really are not. Peter Chastain (talk) 23:47, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

I'd say "if WV scales up". I hope it does, but so far, there isn't much evidence of that. And I don't think that putting a red-linked template (or even a regular one if it were approved) would really catch anyone's eye. I don't want to cramp your style, but I think you can expect someone to delete it if I don't. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:02, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Editing on Skyros Island reverted

Hi Ikan, I tried to correct an edit that I had made for Skyros (Greece) that was reverted, changed first person language and deleted a second link that it had but apparently it was reverted again, can you please advise on what else is wrong? Cheers! —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)

Thanks for writing to discuss this. I guess it's not that hard to detout this listing, but I think you should do it. What's the real name of these apartments? "Skyros Studios" looks like a promotional (SEO) description, probably not a genuine alternate name, and "in the Greek island of Skyros" is purely promotional and completely unnecessary because the listing would be in the Skyros article. Try to think of yourself as giving a purely descriptive listing with information that is helpful to prospective travelers, nothing promotional and nothing that's obvious. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:42, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Tijuana (article) hotel listings

Ikan Kekek says: "Hi, and thank you for your work in the Tijuana article, but would you like to help move listings to the district articles for the city? No specific templated listings should be in the article for the whole city. Also, I noticed that one or two of the hotel listings are touty. 'Hotel X is very close to attractions A, B, C, D and E' is not an appropriate description for Wikivoyage; instead, the hotel's address and lat/long coordinates should be given, and then visitors should look at a map and make up their own minds." Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:22, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

The listings have been moved to the district articles as requested. The listings were already put there by others. I simply re-format it to look like the what the listing format should be and to include more information such as address, url, phone number, etc. and to make it look consistent. The comments about the hotel rather they're "touting" or not were previously submitted by others. They were not something I wrote. I simply copied, pasted and changed some of the wording but the overall content remained the same so feel free to change it to whatever is appropriate to posting on here. Denontating 'Hotel X is very close to attractions A, B, C etc.' were more intended to describe the location than to tout as some these attractions are more of a local landmark than to tout. In some places, there are inconsistent addressing or NO formal addresses so everything is described in relative location to a major landmark or to each other. More so on the streets when trying to tell taxi drivers where you want to go as they may not necessary know a particular address. —The preceding comment was added by Anyone150 (talkcontribs)

I was just about to post a "Thank you" note to your user talk page for the work you've done. My phrasing didn't suggest you were at fault; it just pointed out things you could do to help. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:57, 29 January 2016 (UTC)


Also the migrant hostels. They are spread out all over town and are not necessarily located in the districts you have carved out. How do you want to organize those? I moved everything else over as you asked. —The preceding comment was added by Anyone150 (talkcontribs)

Yes. Which I was going to thank you for. I don't know what to suggest about the migrant hostels, other than to post a message on Talk:Tijuana asking for input. By the way, on talk pages like this one (or that one), please sign your posts (type 4 tildes [~] at the end of the post).
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:14, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

I dont know if I ever told you this one

Somehow when I was doing fieldwork in yogya I was in contact with a jakarta based map maker whose attitude i found hard to fathom. I sent an email saying edition such and such of your map series shows roads that do not exist. (I said you have a road going up and down a 500 metre gunung kidul cliff on the side of the oyo river He wasnt the slightest bit interested, and replied with the claim he was so proud he had got all the extra rivers into the map . arrrggghh. it makes me think of the recent brick wall stuff about category of rivers and creeks JarrahTree (talk) 09:46, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Amazing. That's having no pride in doing one's job right. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:13, 11 February 2016 (UTC)


  • Hi, it is OK. I was already four times there, the last one in October 2015. The hotel Namche Bazar has accommodation ranging from 3 to 25 dollars. Best regard. DARIO SEVERI (talk) 08:49, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
And I've never been there and simply appreciate the content you're adding! Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:15, 26 February 2016 (UTC)


You'd marked User: as "19:37, 2 March 2016‎ Ikan Kekek (talk | contribs)‎ . . (58 bytes) (-16)‎ . . (Not obviously spam.)"

Perhaps would be reason to reconsider, if the only contribution being a generic user page which claims this site to be a "forum" isn't grounds enough? K7L (talk) 04:43, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

The post wasn't obviously spam, in my opinion. Using French on en.voy was a bit odd, but as for "forum", a lot of people use imprecise language. So apparently the user is a spammer, though there's nothing harmful in the post itself. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:43, 3 March 2016 (UTC)


In the buddhism article there is basically one tout/spruik - Buddhism#Do and I am uncomfortable with that, I would think if one network makes claims, I can think of about 40 or roundabout of other networks of the tibetan, and other thervadan networks who could as easily make similar claims, I would have thought better to leave out rather than have undue promotion of one. Very cuirious as to how you would consider the issues. JarrahTree (talk) 06:21, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

Totally agreed. I will remove that section. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:46, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

A note

Thank you for your revert – I would have done it myself but I was running late for Spanish class! –StellarD (talk) 13:12, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

IP exemption request

Is there a wikivoyage process for requesting an IP blocklist exemption beyond asking you / another admin? I'm often in places where wikimedia is inaccessible and find myself unable to edit when using tor or VPNs. Ttocslliw (talk) 19:09, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't know how to do this. Most IPs aren't blocked, though. I think you might want to try posting this message to the Travellers' pub. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:26, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Mitzpe Ramon guide

In the Mitzpe Ramon guide I added the passage: "Line 65 is an express bus that not enters inside towns and facilities on the way." This was not an error. I added the passage to let tourists that travel in the area by bus that bus 65 from Be'er Sheva to Mitzpe Ramon is fairly different than the other lines that go from Be'er Sheva to Mitzpe Ramon as that specific bus line have fewer intermediate stops and not enters to towns, military bases and Midreshet Ben-Gurion. The other bus lines that go from Be'er Sheva to Mitzpe Ramon(Lines 60, 64, 160) are regular buses that enter inside places that line 65 don't stop inside them.

Thank you, DanBus43Maalit72

Thanks for explaining. The English expression would be "does not enter", or maybe "does not stop" would be more idiomatic. I'll edit the passage. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:20, 20 March 2016 (UTC)


...for reverting my unintentional rollback. Touch screen on my gadget is sometimes difficult to operate. --Alexander (talk) 11:12, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

Any time. We've all done the same thing, I think. I know I have. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:59, 25 March 2016 (UTC)


Thanks for praise about the Mawlamyine article, there is still much to do regarding Myanmar ... working on it.

I also have to thank you for the work you do here. It is much greater. Keep up the good attitude.

̴̴̃Ceever (talk) 10:20, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I will do my best. I, too, try to improve articles about places I travel to, but for the rest of the year, when I'm at home, I just do my best to copy edit and such. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:22, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, But Your Grammar Is Incorrect

I noticed that you reverted my edit to United States of America, with the reason being a "grammatically correct sentence being turned into a run-on". While your concern is certainly appreciated, I'm afraid you are incorrect in this case; the sentence in question is not grammatically correct as is. To explain, here is how the sentence in question appeared prior to my edit (which is also how it appears now):

"Today, this is not the case; as most enter by plane."

Like this, the semicolon is being used improperly (or, conversely, the word "as" is being used improperly). Due to the fact that "as" is being used as a conjunction in this case, it cannot be directly proceeded by a semicolon, as this renders the role of the word "as" as a bridge between two distinct thoughts ("Today this is not the case" and "Most enter by plane") redundant. There are two correct ways to express this same sentence, which are as follows:

"Today this is not the case, as most enter by plane."
"Today, this is not the case; most enter by plane."

While I don't plan on reverting your reversion or changing the sentence again (I doubt that either of us needs an edit war), I do believe that you have made a mistake, that my edit was both justified and proper, and that you should take the liberty of correcting yourself. If you have any comments, questions, or additional concerns or rebuttals, please notify me on my talk page. If you doubt my logic, please feel free to consult another party for verification. Thank you, Colonel Wilhelm Klink (talk) 20:48, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I misread that as a comma. You are right. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:50, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
It's no trouble; sorry to make a big deal out of it. :) Colonel Wilhelm Klink (talk) 20:52, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
Not a problem at all! I would probably have a similar reaction. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:56, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Ngwe Saung

Sorry, forgot the MS Word check again ... working on it.

Ceever (talk) 15:28, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

No problem. Thanks for adding all that content. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:54, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Difference between "Related sites" and "In other projects" ... and Yangon


1) For the Sittwe article (and probably others) I have "Related sites" and "In other projects" on the left side, but they list the same links. Why and would it make sense to remove the links from the wiki text therefore?

2) The Yangon article is quite long due to the longish of the Main Pagoda there. However, the Yangon Pagoda is not particularly more special than other big ones all over the country. And I doubt anyone would want to concentrate on that much content compared to other sights in Myanmar. Would it make sense to move this content somewhere else? Or what would be a valid option?


Ceever (talk) 17:59, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

The best thing for the sister site links is to have them at the end of the article for them to appear in the sidebar. Automatic links from Wikidata are the ones that should not be showing.
I don't see how text about a sight in Yangon would make sense to move anywhere else. If you feel that pagoda is getting undue emphasis, perhaps you'd like to edit the listing down a bit (I say that without having looked at the listing, or at least not recently). Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:44, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

HI Ikan

Hi Ikan, my apologiese I only saw your messages now, can you please contact me at regarding my submissions, I'd just like to clarify why I believe they should be allowed as it is a service to visitors of our area, we dont charge tourists any fees or commisions for using our information sites, we are a part of the Tourism Industry in the Inhambane province of Mozambique.

Many thanks for your time,

Kind regards

Eddietofo —The preceding comment was added by Eddietofo (talkcontribs)

Hi, Eddie. I appreciate your friendly tone, but that's not the way things work here. Individual admins don't email people about this kind of stuff. Your effort at explaining how you are an official (that is, governmental) agency or otherwise don't violate external links#what not to link to needs to be in Talk:Mozambique, and it's not up to me to decide that you deserve an exception: You'd need to persuade a consensus.
I'll also say for the record to anyone who might be reading that no-one should ask me to communicate with them by email about reversions, deletions or any other administrative action. We are not going to have a private chat and work things out between us, because Wikis are collective, not personal, and I also have a right to privacy. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:40, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Reasonable prices

And yet 2 listing above has "A little pricey" and you did not delete that. Why is that everytime I go on a wiki site and try to make it better, an editor-nazi comes along and wants to be anal as hell? I read the guidelines and differences between wikipedia and wikivoyage - this is not an encyclopedia dude! —The preceding comment was added by Pacezg (talkcontribs)

And you expect what kind of response to this? Yeah, this is a Wiki, which means that everyone's work is edited. If you think that makes people Nazis, start a blog.
With a real effort, I'll give you a substantive response to your over-the-top screed: Words like "reasonable" or "inexpensive" can be used to tout; "pricey" can't. Really, it's best to put in actual prices and let the reader make up his/her own mind.
Also, I'm always pretty unsympathetic to "but such-and-such has a similar phrasing". No one editor sees everything. If you think something violates policy or is in some other way bad, don't complain that I "did not delete" it; do your own work. And have a nice day.
Someone the Nazi Party would not have accepted into its ranks,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:31, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

You people are really nuts. It was fun editing... for like the first 10 articles. Then people like you come in. Happened on both wikipedia and here. Enjoy your power pedestal and good luck. —The preceding comment was added by Pacezg (talkcontribs)

Did I make the listing more informative, and therefore more helpful to a reader? Talk about "nuts", calling someone a "Nazi" for copy editing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:52, 21 April 2016 (UTC)


Re Dujiangyan - the bus company does not seem to have a web site. The map I posted is on imgur, but it's not available anywhere else online, so why not keep it? Ar2332 (talk) 09:47, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Does that violate its copyright? We have to be concerned about such issues. Please make a remark at Talk:Dujiangyan, and if a consensus develops, perhaps an exception can be made for this page.
Thanks for writing, and also for all the great work you're doing!
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:36, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
OK, I've opened the talk page. Ar2332 (talk) 08:49, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Hey, quick Apology

Hey, I'm the 74. IP person. Sorry for those messed up edits, relatively new to this wiki. —The preceding comment was added by Branthecan (talkcontribs)

Cool. Which edits? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:40, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
Oh, I see. No big deal. I'll post an official welcome message on your user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:41, 1 May 2016 (UTC)


I looks somebody try to change every phone number at Mount Merapi Article. please to make some measure soon. thanks —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)

You're saying the changes are incorrect? Did you revert them with an explanation in your edit summary? That's what you should do. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:37, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

yups, user name: Ardi.keling and Ardi.Merapi was added his phone number to homestay listing. it's are in corect, he was change the contac person of homestay owner And Guide association with his phone number. but,to day, i was changed with true number phone of the homestay Owner. I'm Sura Mendhol, i live in Selo Village, near Merapi, i know all of Homestay Owner that wroted in Mount Merapi article. if neded, find me at Fb :Mendhol FromSelo WithLove and whatsapp: +62 815 48615234. Thanks ikan keke —The preceding comment was added by Sura Mendhol (talkcontribs)

OK, but three different numbers have been posted by three different users. Your remarks seem convincing, but you can understand why I'm confused. Could you please post a similar message at Talk:Mount Merapi? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:01, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

muj oblibeny

Trophy.png pan
vazeni Drancakova.barb1 (talk) 17:22, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the silver goblet! I had to put that through Google Translate, as I don't know Slovak. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:36, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

What's the difference?

What's the difference the two sentences below? Sue was walking the dog. Sue was walking with the dog. Please reply me!Yanlinnnaung (talk) 10:29, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

The difference is subtle and might not really amount to much. In the first case, "walking the dog" usually means you have the dog on a leash and you are taking it for a walk for the purpose of having it urinate or defecate or both. In the second case, the dog may be off leash, and Sue may simply be walking along with the dog, for no other purpose than to walk. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:42, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
Thanks so much!Yanlinnnaung (talk) 03:26, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
Hi, How are u? I hope u are well,

What's the difference of in Proverbs and Quotes.Yanlinnnaung (talk) 05:38, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Proverbs and quotes aren't similar at all. A proverb is a wise saying like "Look before you leap", "What goes around comes around" (an explanation of karma) or "Pride goeth before destruction and an haughty spirit before a fall" (which is from the Biblical Book of Proverbs, Chapter 16, verse 18), and Proverbs is also a book of the Bible. A quote is just whatever someone said. So if someone says "Wow, that's stupid", I just quoted it, but that's no proverb. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:46, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, have a grate day.Yanlinnnaung (talk) 09:01, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Great. :-) You too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:03, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Transport at Lake Toba

Hello Ikan Kekek

I want to know,why you undo our listing at lake toba? because we are transporter at lake toba from medan airport. we have services for direct transport about 4-5 hours approximately to lake toba. and we can combine with another location if travellers to lake toba want to continue their trip. please give them a good information,so they easy to come to our Beautiful country Lake Toba Ikan Kekek. you also can help our Lake TOba become famous with good services,because travellers need services and truth information about that area.

Regards All Tobatransporters Crew HORAS! HORAS! HORAS! —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)

Hello. I guess you're using a dynamic IP. I explained in the talk page for the IP you were using yesterday that your website doesn't seem to give travelers the option of simply paying for travel from Medan Airport to Danau Toba and then back, but appears to require them to also pay for at least 3 days of tours. If that's indeed the case, your company unfortunately cannot be listed on this site because of Wikivoyage's prohibition on listing most kinds of tours. See Wikivoyage:Tour. If that isn't the case, it's probably important to post a clear update on your website. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:40, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Merapi guide

Whay you can't recomendasion i have e-mail and phone namber about guiding in merapi? 08:01, 12 May 2016 (UTC) —The preceding comment was added by Ardi.keling (talkcontribs)

I'm sory sir

sorry I have made a mess! but I beg you please email and my number written on your page merapi 08:46, 12 May 2016 (UTC) —The preceding comment was added by Ardi.keling (talkcontribs)

You mean on your user page? On your user page, you can briefly state who you are and what you do, but you cannot advertise on any page on this site. Have you read Wikivoyage:Don't tout and Wikivoyage:Tour yet? If not, make sure you read those pages. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:50, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm So sory

but I beg you help me for writing my address on your merapi guide. thank you 09:16, 12 May 2016 (UTC) —The preceding comment was added by Ardi.keling (talkcontribs)

My friend, before you make any more edits to Mount Merapi, you need to respond to the thread I linked above in Talk:Mount Merapi. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:20, 12 May 2016 (UTC)


thanks for the suggestion , but I have a problem because of my account on the wiki has been deleted! 09:27, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Your account has not been deleted - you're posting from it! All that's been deleted are posts you made, including on your user page, that seemed to violate the don't tout policy. And if you can post to this talk page, you can also post to Talk:Mount Merapi. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:47, 12 May 2016 (UTC)


thanks for the warning and advice, then you can write me an email and phone number in the mount Merapi about a guiding sir? 10:00, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm not even really sure what you're asking, but I don't think so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:01, 12 May 2016 (UTC)


Whay??? Because I make a problem in wikivoyage or something? 10:11, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

My friend, I'm a volunteer editor. It's not my job to write your listings. Please do what I suggested to you above. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:54, 12 May 2016 (UTC)


Ok! No problems bud I'm little bit disappointed sir! 11:06, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

I've taken some time with you and given you advice. Your history until today has been to use promotional language and edit war, yet you're disappointed because I won't write your own edits, when I'm not even sure whether or not they belong on this site. :-P Put in some more effort, please. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:19, 12 May 2016 (UTC)


Maybe you can talk to him sir 11:22, 12 May 2016 (UTC)


I don't how I can make sure to you! But I say true! About I make problem in wikivoyage I'm so sorry sir!!! I just hope to you sir! 11:47, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Saudara/Saudari telah mengerti yang saya sudah tulis di atas? Kalau tidak mengerti cukup, malangnya Saudara/Saudari tidak mengerti cukup Bahasa Inggeris untuk tulis di Wikivoyage Bahasa Inggeris. Kalau sudah mengerti, sebab apa belum post di Talk:Mount Merapi? Saya tidak akan jawab lagi disini. Selamat pagi (atau untuk Saudari/Saudari, saya fikir selamat sore). Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:20, 12 May 2016 (UTC)


Thanks for your support and answer sir! Happy nice day and good luck! 12:29, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Ground Zero (talk) 11:17, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Certainly. You've made yourself a valuable editor here. Thank you! Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:31, 17 May 2016 (UTC)


Hi I got the listing from google maps and the description for the listing said "Google". --Frommkeyeditor (talk) 17:18, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

No need to cite where you got the listing from in the description, but in the future, you can mention in your editing summary where you saw the listing. However, if you copied and pasted the information, please paraphrase it, as this site has a copyright policy that doesn't allow for outright copy-pasting in most cases.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:22, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
I understand working on it now. --Frommkeyeditor (talk) 17:23, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
Excellent. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:34, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Vijayawada in Hyderabad

Thanks User Ikan. Sorry if I made any incorrect assumptions re. spelling of Indian city names (viz. Vijayawada in Hyderabad article.) Spelling of geographic names was the first step by the British colonials to de-racinate the natives from their culture. Since samskritand its derivatives of the subcontinent are phonetic unlike the English language, any spelling distortions are seen as a continuation of the colonial power. Wikipedia in general and Wikivoyage in particular should be sensitive to the sentiments of the whole world since Wikipedia claims to represent the "world citizen". While the spelling mistake may not be intentional, it is still advisable that ownership of how it should be written (in roman alphabet) is given to those who live in the region. While my intention is not to deliver a lecture on the proper Wiki etiquette, my hand has been forced to just that because you left a long lecture/links on my talk page regarding the proper Wikivoyage etiquette. All the best, so long, and live long and prosper. —The preceding comment was added by Telugujoshi (talkcontribs)

Thank you for your message, and welcome! I certainly understand and sympathize with the points you're making. However, the policy of English-language Wikivoyage is to use the name and spelling most commonly used in English. That disregards local sensibilities sometimes, but this site's basic principle is the traveller comes first. Wikipedia, as an encyclopedia, has different aims and policies. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:18, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
By the way, I'm sorry that my welcome +information post on your user talk page came across as a lecture. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:20, 31 May 2016 (UTC)


Hi, Ikan. Looking at User:NeoMaps' global edit history and their editing on English Wikivoyage since yesterday, they bear a remarkable similarity to User:Turbo8000, as does the phrasing in their talk page posts (right down to editing other people's posts); Indeed many of his Wikipedia-edits are linked to Peru. I don't want it to seem like I'm stirring up trouble, but I do think I should raise my concerns with a sensible moderator who knows both users / accounts in question, and allow you to decide for yourself from the edit history. Thanks, --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:59, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

I quite agree. Moreover, this user is blocked indefinitely on I haven't checked that user's latest edits (since last night). If you believe it's warranted, please start a thread at Wikivoyage:User ban nominations. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:27, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Hi. I am not Turbo8000, and second, I got blocked on eswiki because my username was a political party name so I requested the unblock. NeoMaps (talk) 19:54, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
OK, but please be collaborative and avoid suspicious edits like changing the spellings of words in other people's comments on talk pages. It's hardly an accident that both ThunderingTyphoons! and I drew the same conclusion about who you are, so be careful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:59, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Why would you go on to a conversation that took place months ago, that you, as a user who only registered yesterday, wouldn't even have a reason to know about, and correct the spelling comments just as Turbo8000 did back in January, leave the same snide edit summary ("fix") as Turbo8000, if you and he weren't the same person? Why would you even care to make such an edit, if it wasn't to continue the pointless campaign is disruptive edits you lost months ago? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:03, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Hi everyone, I would just caution against everyone piling into this new user. Yes we have had some bad experiences before, but benefit of the doubt is probably called for in this instance. As far as I can tell, their only 'crime' is before overly enthusiastic with changing Spanish pronunciations --Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:11, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Understood. But I know it's him, so I'll just keep away --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:34, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
I don't agree with you, Andrew. Block evasion is grounds for an immediate ban. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:19, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
I agree that block evasion is grounds for an immediate ban, and should be actioned if this does in fact turn out to be Turbo8000. I'm just not convinced it is yet, although the editing history does have a few parallels. Andrewssi2 (talk) 05:03, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
I'm convinced, but like I said, I'm willing to give him more rope to hang himself. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:40, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

A question of tone

I realize NPOV is a Wikipedia principle that doesn't apply here, but I'm wondering if you can take a look at this edit and let me know if you think this might be too opinionated a tone. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:39, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

If it's fair, I've got no problem with it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:02, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Don't tout

Hello , my content was tagged and deleted as "dont tout" . Could you explain please how should I write my content for not touting ? Thank you. content is : Kusadasi —The preceding comment was added by Kusadasitaxi (talkcontribs)

Hi, Kusadasitaxi. Thanks for contacting me. I moved your post to the bottom of the page so that I can easily find it. It's customary on this site to put new posts on talk pages at the bottom of the page and sign them by typing 4 tildes (the ~ key) in a row.
That said, the problems with your listing included the following:
(1) You created an entire new primary section of the article, rather than just putting a templated listing in the "Get around" section. (2) You gave neither a street address nor a phone number for your company. How do you expect people to find it? By going to your website? It's great and important that you included your URL, but Wikivoyage is not a link farm, and Wikivoyage articles are supposed to be fully usable in printed form. (3) Your last sentence seemed a little promotional to me: "Taxi drivers in Kusadasi will also help you to find a restaurant, hotel or whatever you need." (The "whatever you need" is the problem; I admit I'm being a little nitpicky, but nevertheless.) If you tone it down just a little bit to something like "Taxi drivers in Kusadasi tend to be helpful and are normally happy to give you recommendations for restaurants" and so forth (though not at great length), it could be fine. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:08, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for your answer , I will make changes you want , and sorry for "whatever" it is all about my low english. When I make necessary changes you'll see and not remove this time I hope.

Thanks for your help Kusadasitaxi (talk) 10:25, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

You're welcome. "Whatever" isn't poor English; it just is a bit excessive, as what I need may not be something a taxi driver can do for me. I appreciate your working with me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:27, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

New "Don't tout" thread

i don't understand why you have removed my listing, at least you can explain ! it was at skopje, macedonia, under sleep- budget, the name is arss apartment —The preceding comment was added by Zizikozle (talkcontribs)

Zizikozle, I hope you don't mind that I moved your comment to the bottom of the page, where it's easier for me to see it. I also signed for you - it's customary to sign talk pages by typing 4 tildes (the ~ key) in a row at the end of your post; otherwise, it can be very hard to see who posted what where.
As for your question, though: I already answered it by giving you links to look at. Read the links I gave you carefully. Then, if there's something you're not sure you understand, ask me a specific question.
Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:21, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Europe is not part of Europe?

Hi there,

I see you've reverted my edit by saying that "Europe is not part of Europe", which is kind of odd at face value but probably reflects a technical consideration (hopefully). In any case, I would think that the Europe article should be included in the Europe category - if only because Europe is, indeed, in Europe. Do you have any workaround for that? Thanks! Popo le Chien (talk) 10:34, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

No, you don't understand. "IsPartOf" is literally for articles that are lower down in the breadcrumb trail of this site's hierarchy. Making Europe subordinate to Europe - which is what "IsPartOf" does - makes no sense. Do you understand now? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:05, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
Ok, got it. Then does it make sense to include European itineraries such as Cruising the Baltic Sea or Amber Road in the Europe category, or should they be categorized for every country they cross? Popo le Chien (talk) 07:39, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Itineraries aren't part of the breadcrumb structure of locations. You can see the breadcrumb trail of Cruising the Baltic Sea at the upper left of its page: Travel topics > Transportation > Boat travel > Cruising the Baltic Sea. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:48, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Regarding Trevor Noah's identity

He has this whole bit in his standup routine where he says that he does not speak Afrikaans and has trouble being mistaken for "Coloured" in South African places where they are a large group. Apparently when he went to the US he was happy to finally be "black" only to discover being mistaken for Latino upon arrival. It's a joke obviously (setting up him not understanding Spanish), but I think it sums up his identity. I will see whether I can find a video of it on Youtube. Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:21, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

here is a video where he talks/jokes about his identity. You be the judge what he identifies as. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:59, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
It's funny. I think it's clear he doesn't consider himself Coloured. More than that is hard to be really sure about, because it's a comedy routine. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:09, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

endless tireless unthanked

wow I hope they develop a special medal for you - your contribs seem to go on endless, trust you are well! JarrahTree (talk) 03:12, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

I am. Thank you. How are you? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:18, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
real life has its small complications, I'll possibly wont bore you with the details here, maybe when I have settled, and moved back in here, rather than dumb category tagging on wp en... Its good to be back, hope to be much more active after yet another break JarrahTree (talk) 03:23, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
Oh sure. Life is complicated, and then you die (but hopefully not too soon for either of us). Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:50, 9 July 2016 (UTC)


Just to clarify my edit, I was meaning to highlight that Jews do not believe in original sin. Hence, that is a key difference between Judaism and Christianity. There is part of the "Islam" article that mentions some differences between Muslim and Christian doctrine, so I though that it would be useful to compare Jewish and Christian doctrine too. The dog2 (talk) 19:48, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

We could work on these things, but I'm not sure how travel-relevant it is, and also, there is so much argument within the Jewish community about proper interpretation of Law that it will be difficult. Another thought, if we are going to tackle this at all, is that since Judaism was the father of other Abrahamic faiths, we would talk about how Christianity and Islam are different from Judaism, rather than vice versa - in other words, it is not necessary at all to understand Judaism in terms of how it differs from religions that sprang forth from it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:23, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Belgrade, Serbia

Hello! Thank you for your comment on my edit of the Belgrade article. Good to know about linking to the phrasebook, I have to admit I wasn't aware that Wikivoyage already had one, thank you for pointing it out. The reason for editing the NATO part out was that it didn't really fit with the section, as it is (unfortunately) just one of the many horrific instances of violence that Belgrade has suffered. As the History section is brief, there isn't much mentioning of the wars Belgrade has seen, and as such the NATO part just comes across as superfluous.

MeriadocTargaryen (talk) 11:53, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

It's the first thing many people think about when the hear Balkans. Whether justified or not. Just like any coverage on Nicaragua should mention the Contra war if only to get it "out of the way"... Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:31, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

External links

Regarding the external link I had added to the itinerary section on the Djibouti (Country) page, I have to admit it was quite reckless of me to lazily add a link to a blog without even reading the rules. Either way, thanks for notifying me about it as I would have probably continued to do this in the future if it weren't for you. Would it be fine if I link the itinerary to a separate page titled 'Djibouti in 4 days' and rewrote what the blogger had described in their article while of course, giving credit to the original creator?

Irrelevant Notice: Ignore the strange username, it makes no sense and I came up with it on a whim when I had noticed a grammatical mistake on a Wikipedia page, I didn't want any strangers on the internet to know my IP address so I had created an account, I hadn't logged into it in ages and I'm only now using it as I want to actively become a part of the Wikimedia/Wiki Voyage community.

--The8-Fact2-Freak6 (talk) 22:16, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for posting here. By the way, I don't think you were the least bit reckless, nor do I expect you to know all the rules and guidelines by heart.
I wouldn't want to presume as one person to give you a definitive answer on your question about the itinerary. One potential issue is covered at Wikivoyage:Itineraries#"Personal" itineraries, although these guidelines have been enforced less lately than they were a few years ago when what I considered an excessive spate of deletions occurred because of it. You might want to bring this up at Talk:Djibouti and see if you can get advice from a number of different users. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:31, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply, I'll have to check out Talk:Djibouti some time.
--The8-Fact2-Freak6 (talk) 11:52, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
By the way, another place you could bring this up, which might possibly get more eyeballs (no guarantee, though) is Wikivoyage talk:Itineraries. You could also point to whichever talk page your post is on at the Travellers' pub. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:43, 27 July 2016 (UTC)


This user seems to be fond of introducing awkward less idiomatic wordings. While I am not ready to jump to any conclusions, we may want to be on the lookout. Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:44, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I reverted all of his/her edits that I've seen so far. S/he also "corrected" Canadian spelling to American spelling in the Halifax article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:52, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Mlg, ID

Hi Kekek! I'd watched your activity on Malang City page. You look strugled to face tout writing there. Firts, may I introduce my self. I've signed up in wiki for couple years ago but I just really know how-to-participate here recently. So, I have some questions which might can helping you on that page.

  1. 1. Some the wikivoyage policies and guidelines has been I known; Why were you just push on MLGTravel but not to others?
  2. 2. Something you might not know is that Malang can reference the name of city and also regency. If I create a new page for Malang regency, is it justified?

Oh ya, good job! Presidenvolksraad (talk) 22:13, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Welcome, and thanks for introducing yourself! If I missed some touters, it was probably because I reverted a new touty edit, or that was simply the touting I saw. If you see other touting, please plunge forward and delete it, referencing don't tout in your edit summary.
My guess is that a separate article on Malang Regency might be confusing, but you might start a thread in Talk:Malang and see what others think.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:59, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Belgrade Hotels

What exactly do you mean by "Don't tout"? I added the Square Nine hotel with a description of the property, it wasn't copied from their website or any other. And leaving out the arguably best-ranked hotel in Belgrade is a move I think needs some explanation. Thanks!

MeriadocTargaryen (talk) 12:35, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting that the hotel shouldn't be listed, but that the listing should conform to this site's guidelines. Please read Wikivoyage:Don't tout. After you've read through that page, if you still have questions, please ask. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:37, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Ok, I tried to make it concise but apparently more is better on Wikivoyage. Please feel free to edit the Sleep section the way you think it should be done. MeriadocTargaryen (talk) 12:41, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
I haven't vetoed your idea (and I wouldn't really have the power to singlehandedly do so, anyway); I just don't want wholesale deletions to take place without a consensus. Wikis work by consensus. It's fine to plunge forward, but on potentially controversial issues, it's often best to wait a day or a few to see what others think. Please don't be discouraged by that, nor by my initial reversion of a listing. Your work is valued; new content and edits for greater user-friendliness are the lifeblood of this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:46, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the revert on my talk page

Yes, this is a Wikipedia vandal who has editted there under various IPs and sockpuppet accounts. When they are discovered and blocked, they retaliate by attacking on other wikis. Because that is the mature thing to do. This editor has harassed me on my Tardis Wikia page and at WikiCommons. They have done the same to other editors. If you are an admin, can you protect my talk page from IP editting for a while? Like until the end of the year? Or as long as possible? If you are not an admin, can you direct me as to where to make such a request? B/c I think they are just going to use different IPs to continue. Tbh, I find it somewhat amusing, but I understand it can be disruptive, so protecting my talk page is probably the best thing. Cheers. --Ebyabe (talk) 22:36, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Hi. I am an admin and have started a thread on this user at Wikivoyage:User ban nominations. Feel free to participate. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:40, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

A message...

Thank you for notifying me.But I found there's a same link in the text.I thought I should delete one. HiemstraTIME (talk) 11:50, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Oh, sorry about that. I'll have a look. By the way, you can help by typing an edit summary that explains why you made an edit, if it isn't obvious from looking at only the change (rather than the whole article).
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:52, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
Which article are you talking about, please? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:53, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
Oh, the Brooklyn article. I know that all the "district" articles are linked in a list. I still didn't think it was a great idea to make the deletion you made, but I'll look at the whole article again to see the context. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:55, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
I agree that since that article is linked immediately above that subsection, it doesn't have to be linked again. You can see what edit I made. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:59, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Oh,I have seen it.Actually I am a newcomer and I have never edited an article before.Thanks for your advice.You're so kind then. HiemstraTIME (talk) 12:39, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

No problem! I'll post the standard "welcome" message on your user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:47, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry for disturbing you again. I have trouble creating my user page now. There was no reaction when I clicked the 'create your own' button. In addition, my talk page is blank, but oddly, I could see the welcome message sent by you this morning (and I had yet looked through it). So would you mind telling me what to do to creat my user page? Thank you very much. HiemstraTIME (talk) 02:30, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't really understand why you're having these problems. I posted to your user talk page, not your user page. I post by clicking "Edit" at the top of the page and then typing. You should be able to do that on your user page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:07, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Okay, I'll have a try... Thanks. HiemstraTIME (talk) 03:24, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Oh,it can be edited now

Non-Free link

replied on the talk page [34] (from a different IP address). Let me know what you think. 20:48, 9 August 2016 (UTC)


Trophy.png Hi!
Hello, Ikan!

I am very appreciate for you edits of my improves of article about Ganja. Thanks man ! Ismail Khatai (talk) 19:38, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Delighted to help you. Thanks for adding the content!
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:54, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Vancouver article

Hi Ikan! I am new to Wikivoyage (I mostly stick to editing the English Wikipedia and sometimes WikiData). I was not aware about the linking policy while using Wikivoyage. Thanks for letting me know! Daylen (talk) 02:55, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

No problem! I just gave you some more detailed pointers on your user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:58, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Algarve article

Hi Ikan, there is no violation of copyrights, because I am the owner of the website Juergen Algarveportal

Thank you for telling me, Juergen Algarveportal. I thought you might be, but I had to do due diligence. Wikivoyage:Copyleft also says this:
If you are the original author of the text, note that on the article talk page, or else someone will likely remove it as a copyright violation.
So you can go ahead and add content from your website, but please post to Talk:Algarve to the effect that you are the owner of the copyright for that site and have freely decided that the Creative Commons Attribution/Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 license will apply to the portions of its text that you include in the Algarve article on Wikivoyage.
There is one caveat, though: Make sure that nothing you do runs afoul of another Wikivoyage policy, the don't tout policy. Because the problem is that Wikivoyage does not allow links to portal URLs under the external links#what not to link to policy. That said, as a citation on the talk page, you can certainly link the portal there.
Thank you for your generosity, and please let me know if you have any questions.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:47, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Hi Ikan, Thank you very much for your kind welcome and the information provided. Can you restore the text I have already added, because it is not a 1:1 copy of content from the Algarve-Portal? I fully understand the restrictions regarding links to sites like ours, but in several cases it will not be very pratical or even impossible to import the full content.

All the best,
Juergen Algarveportal (talk) 10:19, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
Please don't import the full content, but if you would like to argue for an exception to the external links policy, you would have to make an argument at Talk:Algarve and try to get a consensus behind it, and I wouldn't expect such an argument to succeed. There's a background behind the external links policy, which is that in the days when we used to allow 3rd-party external links, we spent too much time arguing about which links were and weren't OK, so a decision was made to allow only primary links (such as links to websites for museums or churches in listings for museums or churches, and a link to a city's official tourism bureau at the first mention of the city's name in the body of the article).
You can see your edits here. Please go ahead and put back any text you like that specifically applies to Algarve (I'm not so sure about general information about highway tolls in Portugal and such - that might belong in Portugal#Get around), and I feel apologetic about the application of the external links policy to you, but as I said, exceptions are difficult and would have to be agreed on by a consensus.
Thanks again, and all the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:30, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Hi Ikan, Thank you for the clarif