Wikivoyage talk:Listings

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Technical question[edit]

Swept in from the pub

I would like to try to "fish out" a list of all the tourist attraction articles in the English Wikipedia for a certain country in order to use that list in the Hebrew Wikivoyage.

Some years ago I figured out how to do this but since then I forgot, so I was hoping some of the experts here could maybe help me figure it out again.

So, for example, I would like to be able to take a category like Category:Tourist attractions in Spain and create a list that contains all the articles in that category and in ALL the sub categories (at least 5 levels down that category tree).

Is there any easy way to accomplish this? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 21:47, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[]

@ויקיג'אנקי: I believe that this will give you what you seek. --Nelson Ricardo (talk) 22:03, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[]
@Nricardo: thanks! ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 22:44, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[]
You may also be interested in the Nearby Attraction tool. This finds all the English Wikipedia articles (max 49) within 10km of the nominal centre of an English Wikivoyage article. AlasdairW (talk) 22:50, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[]
@AlasdairW: Oh wow! that one is amazing. I saw there's also a climate template generator in there for the climate template used in Engvoy... we at Hebvoy use the Wikipedia climate template... is there a similar generator capable of creating new climate templates for Wikipedia articles? (Which we could then transfer to Hebvoy too) ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 02:15, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[]
I have only used the Nearby Attractions and Nearby Destinations tabs. See Wikivoyage talk:Listings#New_editing_tools_for_generating_article_content for a discussion on these tools. AlasdairW (talk) 19:50, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[]

Problems with listings on Portuguese Wikivoyage[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Problem with Wikivoyage's template in Portuguese, anyone know who could help? pt:Wikivoyage:Itens da lista de acomodação.--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 13:56, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[]

Hi @Felipe da Fonseca: I won't be able to assist with anything template-related, but it would be really helpful if you could give as much detail of the problem as possible, so people reading know whether they can help or not.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:57, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[]
ThunderingTyphoons! hi: the first variable, "name", does not appear on the page, it is hidden. Thanks,--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 15:02, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[]
@Felipe da Fonseca:, fixed :) -- 18:40, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[]
Many thanks,! I had noticed a while back but failed to say anything (hangs head in vergonha). It was the main reason I did not contribute on pt, and I suspect that may be part of why that community is practically dead. While I'm here, I'll mention that I don't see an Edit link on listings. You can see this at pt:Utilizador:Nricardo/Sandbox. Thanks again! Nelson Ricardo (talk) 19:26, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[]
Sorry, one more thing: the images to add listings from the editor toolbar look messed up. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 19:30, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[] Thank you very much. I will try to follow that wiki and reactivate the community. --Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 19:35, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[]
I'll try to summon Andyrom75, he's the local "listing editor" guru :) Perhaps he'll know right away - it seems it's done by some javascript magic that processes span's with class listing-metadata-items, so maybe you have old listing editor JS?. And good luck restarting pt.WV to you all! I can imagine it won't be easy, considering how hard it is making HebVoy lift off... :( -- 20:20, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[]
andree, I haven't understood which is the current issue.
Ricardo (or anyone else), is there a test page where I can clearly the issue? --Andyrom75 (talk) 21:46, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[]
@Andyrom75, please let me know if pt:Utilizador:Nricardo/Sandbox isn't sufficient. It has sleep (durma), eat (coma), and see (veja) listings. Thanks! Nelson Ricardo (talk) 21:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[]
Andyrom75 the 'edit' button in pt.wikivoyage doesn't show up next to listings. It seemed it could be some old/improperly configured JS code? If you have time/will to check it... :) -- 07:03, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[]
andree, Ricardo, thanks, now I got the problem :-)
The first thing I've seen is that pt:voy use a very old version of listing editor. I suggest to use the last one. Since I'm not an admin on pt:voy I'll try to use the right one in my personal page (without any kind of translation). If it works, an admin can translate and move the script in the most appropriate location. --Andyrom75 (talk) 15:11, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[]
Ricardo, see the pages I've created. Replicate it on pt:voy and you'll see that everything will work as in pt:Utilizador:Andyrom75/Sandbox :-) PS I can see the [edit] link in your sandbox but listing editor doesn't work becasue currently my script is configured for en:voy, you have to customized it first. --Andyrom75 (talk) 15:55, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[]
@Andyrom75, Thank you for looking into this. I cannot see the Edit link in either your sandbox nor mine. Could it be a preferences setting? Or maybe the custom code applies to your account only? Do you see it from a private/incognito window? (At any rate, I'm just an end user without special privileges, so I won't be able to act on anything that needs extra rights. Also, I'm mostly clueless on the code.) Nelson Ricardo (talk) 22:52, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[]
Ricardo, sorry for my late reply. As previously said, I'm not an admin on pt:voy, so I can't change pt:voy config files. I've added the new script on my pt:voy account, if you want to test it, copy the same on your account. However, if you want to allow all the user to benefit of such script, you have to engage DARIO SEVERI that is the only active admin on pt:voy. --Andyrom75 (talk) 08:11, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[]
Thank you, @Andyrom75. I'll try to ping him here.
Olá, @DARIO SEVERI. My written Portuguese is assim-assim, so I hope it's alright if I address you in English. Please see the above conversation. Lusophone Wikivoyagers, including myself, would be grateful if you would please investigate and resolve this issue. Obrigado! Nelson Ricardo (talk) 08:43, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[]
Hi @Andyrom75, @Nricardo: and @Felipe da Fonseca:, I became an administrator there to help mainly to eliminate spam because I understand very little of the technical part. I read the above discussion and the difficulty is it on the pt:Wikivoyage:Itens da lista de acomodação? I created this sandbox there [1] and despite using an old system it seems that it still works. In order not to disturb the colleagues here, I suggest discussing the subject there. Regards. DARIO SEVERI (talk) 10:22, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[]
@Felipe da Fonseca: Where do I apply to become an administrator? I will help you there. I will soon realize a project with implications on Wikivoyage and I also want to be able to control things quickly (see: meta:Wikisul User Group/Projects). --Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 11:05, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[]

There is another problematic error: when one opens the source code editor, there are some links in the taskbar to add the common templates automatically, but they appear, today, disfigured and it is not possible to understand their functions, can someone help?--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 16:15, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[]

Guys, please, there is another strange problem: how do one control the categories? They seem to be added automatically... but are you adding categories in English... how do one add and remove them manually? Thanks.--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 23:26, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[]

@Felipe da Fonseca, Most categories here are added by template. Look at Caldas da Rainha, for example. At the bottom there's a {{starcity}} template. It adds not only the box at the end of the article but also the following categories: "Star cities", "Star articles", "City articles", and "All destination articles". {{IsPartOf|Oeste}} adds the breadcrumb trail at the top of the page, as well as the "Oeste category". {{mapframe}} in the Get around section adds a dynamic map to the page and the adds the "Has mapframe" category. Each listing template adds a category such as "Has see listing", etc. You can get more info. at Wikivoyage:Categories (note: it's not up to date). Nelson Ricardo (talk) 23:48, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[]
So I need to edit and change the templates? Correct? And how a add the phabricator task? Thanks, --Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 23:55, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[]
w:Wikipedia:Bug reports and feature requests Nelson Ricardo (talk) 00:00, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[]
Nelson Ricardo 2500 It seems that the categories are not being added by default, so I copied the whole page to my test area and they are gone: see here.--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 00:13, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[]
I looked at the code for "Predefinição:Cidade guia" (even though I'm no expert). It looks like categories are added in the Main namespace, so they won't appear on "Utilizador:" pages. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 00:24, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[]

They are claiming that the problem with the categories is on this page. here--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 08:31, 26 May 2021 (UTC)[]

Felipe, Dario, Ricardo, I renew my suggestion to implement the script in my pt:voy sandbox, into the Mediawiki config file, and afterwards, to apply the translation into Portuguese. Stop using the old unmaintained script, will facilitate to get support outside pt:voy. --Andyrom75 (talk) 10:55, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[]
here? Just answer there, thanks. Andyrom75.--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 11:09, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[]
Felipe, Andyrom75, Ricardo ... there is a colleague who is currently solving some of the problems there, he has a lot of knowledge of the technical part. DARIO SEVERI (talk) 12:57, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[]
DARIO SEVERI who? --Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 13:07, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[]
He is Edu, he is one of the administrators at Wikinews. DARIO SEVERI (talk) 13:10, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[]

For those interested this discussion continued here.--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 18:34, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[]

Box sizes and Event listings[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Does anyone here know why these boxes are so distorted and are all in different sizes with different alignments? Here's just an example on how distorted the text and the box sizes are:

On mobile:


On desktop:


Additionally, the event listing is not coming up on the map in Stratford (Victoria). Is it just meant to appear when the event is happening?

Does anyone know why these are happening? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 14:18, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[]

Is this how it looks everywhere, or is it in some specific article? I didn't find those bullets in Stratford (Victoria). –LPfi (talk) 17:33, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[]
Yes, please provide the article where you are seeing this the distortion. Re the event template: I suspect it was abandoned before completion. It doesn't even have an edit link like all other listing types (so you can't use the listing editor), you can't choose "event" as the listing type in the drop-down another listing (so it appears to be a non-standard type), and now it seems to not add a marker to the mapframe. I looked into using it on my pet Star article a while ago, but decided that its deficiencies were too great and used "Do" listings instead. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 20:13, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[]
I took these bullets from Syd Harbour National Park, but also the event listing isn't coming up in Stratford. I shouldn't have combined the messages. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 00:06, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[]
Sydney Harbour National Park: The markers look fine in Chrome, but do appear slightly off in Safari if one is looking for issues. (I'm on macOS Big Sur.) Nelson Ricardo (talk) 00:25, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[]
I'm using Chrome on macOS Catalina, so maybe something wrong with my computer? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 00:45, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[]

Another thread on walking tours[edit]

This new (or reopened) discussion is occasioned by discussion at User talk:Nikoghosyanmarianna. ThunderingTyphoons! believes that the following text implicitly disallows most walking tour listings:

"In practice this policy disallows listing most audio tours and guided tours

I disagree, and point to the two subthreads following Wikivoyage talk:Listings/Archive 2018#Revisit ban on listing free walking tours?, which I believe demonstrate that any walking tour whose listing otherwise follows Wikivoyage guidelines such as don't tout can be listed.

No-one is proposing a ban on all walking tour listings, so I won't copy that entire thread here, but I will copy the conclusion and the following two sections:

It's been over a week with no new comments. A few proposals have been made, the two main ones being to (a) change the policy to allow free walking tours, and (b) change the policy to allow walking tours in general. Proposal (a) has gotten significant opposition; proposal (b) has gotten clear opposition from AndreCarrotflower but support or an ambiguous response from everyone else. Can we find consensus to allow walking tours? Of course if it turns out to lead to too much touting or other problems, we can always change our minds later. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:00, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]

  • Support (b). Thanks for bringing this up again. Ground Zero (talk) 12:41, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[]

No new comments in a while, but in the discussion above there's been general support and little opposition to the proposal. I'm editing the policy accordingly. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:11, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[]

Discussion after policy change[edit]

I'm not sure it's good to allow all walking tours. Maybe it should be specified that "Walking tours may be listed, provided that the value added over an individual taking a walk by themselves is clearly indicated and no motorized transportation is included or offered by the organizers for any part of the tour". Then we could see how this plays out and revisit it if we don't like the results. Maybe my proposed language is too specific, but I don't think we want a bunch of totally generic listings. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:31, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[]
No. I think we discussed walking tours that are truly valuable. The current changed wording allows tours that give nothing more than you get by walking around by yourself with a leaflet in your hands. That the value added should be clearly stated is a good point. --LPfi (talk) 09:29, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[]
How are we ever going to evaluate walking tours based on Ikan Kekek's proposed wording? I think it's trying to fix a problem that we don't have, and is too cumbersome to put into a policy. Ground Zero (talk) 12:20, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[]
No, you misunderstand: We don't evaluate generically listed tours through independent research; whoever posts the listing has to include some kind of language explaining the value added. That value added could be that the guides are trained historians, for example, or that they will show people buildings that are off the beaten path, or whatever (there are a million and one possibilities), but something should be included to explain why it's better than someone walking through a place by themselves. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:30, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[]
But why do we think that this is a problem we have to address through policy? Do we have a policy about restaurants that serve food that isn't as good as food you'd cook at home? We have a general policy about not including places that aren't worth going to -- we leave them out. Why don't we just add walking tours to the list of examples there? Ground Zero (talk) 13:50, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[]
At the very least, we need to specify that no motorized vehicles can be included in the tour, because any tour agency could claim that if they bus people somewhere and then they walk a little, it's a "walking tour". But the reason is that this guide is expressly designed for people who want to take their own initiative - in other words, mainly independent travelers. I don't think we want to open the floodgates this wide to tour operators. If we do, wait and see whether our articles get overwhelmed with low-quality listings. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:00, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[]
"No motor vehicles" makes sense. Ground Zero (talk) 14:10, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[]
I'm okay with "no motor vehicles" and/or the other aspects of Ikan Kekek's suggested wording. —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:53, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[]
I am happy with Ikan's wording. (I don't think that we should exclude tours that make use of scheduled public transport - "we will take the train to the lake and walk back into town along the river", but the transport is not "included".) In particular, I would like to be able to add the walks organised by local history societies. AlasdairW (talk) 22:36, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[]
Agreed on historical societies. Sure, I'm fine with taking public transportation and then walking. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:23, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[]
Good point about public transportation. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:40, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[]

Discussion/vote on new language?[edit]

Do you prefer any of these or have another proposal?

1. "Walking tours may be listed, provided that the listing explains how they are superior to an individual taking a walk by themselves and no motorized transportation is included or offered by the organizers for any part of the tour. Taking public transit to or from the walking tour is fine."

2."Walking tours may be listed, provided that no motorized transportation is included or offered by the organizers for any part of the tour. Taking public transit to or from the walking tour is fine."

3. Current language: "This policy doesn't prohibit walking tours."

I prefer #1, though #2 is also better (because more specific) than the current language, and seems to be fairly popular in the thread above. I found a form of words to substitute for "value added", so as not to suggest these sentences apply to walking tours:

Tours can be listed on Wikivoyage as long as they constitute a value-added activity. If a traveller could fulfill the substance of the tour on their own, the tour should not be listed.

Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:27, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[]

  • I think #1 is the only one including the main point, that worthless tours should not be listed. The policy on not listing boring places does not work for these tours without that language, as somebody has to take that tour and find it boring for it to be removed. --LPfi (talk) 20:51, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[]
  • I prefer #1, but would be happy with #2. AlasdairW (talk) 21:36, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[]
  • Wording #1 is redundant to our general policy about not including places that aren't worth going to -- we leave them out. See Wikivoyage:Avoid negative reviews. Since the point is already covered more effectively there, let's not add more policy that could just confuse contributors. I support #2. Ground Zero (talk) 23:15, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[]
    The problem is that the tour can be listed by a tout, and then cannot be removed by us who do not know this particular tour (unless there are plenty of tour listings with better descriptions). Restaurants are often easier, as locals will know them. Locals seldom take these tours, so whom should we ask? --LPfi (talk) 23:43, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[]
Ground Zero, do you really think it's too much to ask whomever adds a walking tour listing to make at least some kind of statement of how the tour is better than just walking without a tour? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:43, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[]
Because all contributions here are effectively anonymous (Ground Zero isn't even my real name), we don't ever know whether a contributor is a tout or a traveller giving useful information. We can only tell if something sounds like touting. I don't see how a tout assuring us that his/her walking tour is informative, entertaining and stays crunchy in milk makes the listing any more or less worthy of having. We rely on the word of the contributor that the information they provide is accurate anyway. A clever tout doesn't use hyperbole, and will tell us what we want to hear. As with restaurant listings; as with hotel listings; as with rutabaga festival listings. Ground Zero (talk) 02:26, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[]
You're right, but I think it's still worth asking for, so we don't have loads of undifferentiated listings. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:49, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[]
  • The current language seems fine to me. #2, in my eyes, just spells out what "walking tour" means, and #1 seems to impose a requirement we don't have anywhere else; would we remove a hotel if it were added with no details beyond its name? And if we would, then we can do that with tours, as well, without writing it here. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 15:55, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[]
Hotel listings with no description are very commonly removed. But what you and Ground Zero are ignoring is that all travelers need someplace to stay, but a walking tour is optional. So in no way does a hotel have to be more than generic to be listed, but you really want every and all walking tours listed, no matter what? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:19, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[]
If we get too many listings, wouldn't we just take the ones out that provide useful info? It really seems like we're imagining problems that we don't have. If someone starts loading dozens of walking tours into an article, sure, let's discuss that. I will even say, "Ikan Kekek was right". It seems really unlikely to happen, so it's not worth putting in cumbersome easy-to-dodge rules into the policy. Ground Zero (talk) 01:05, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[]
So far, it doesn't look like there's a consensus behind any modification of the current language, so this is likely to be what happens, but I would observe that it's in any case extremely easy to evade the guidelines on touting: All that a business or marketer has to do is give positive descriptions to a bunch of mediocre-or-worse hotels or restaurants that don't obviously run afoul of the guidelines. I think you'd agree that "because they can be evaded" is not a great reason not to have guidelines. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:09, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[]
But having existing rules that address bad tours is justification for not adding more rules that will not be effective. A bad tour is a bad tour. A listing without information is a listing without information. We can take them out without another rule. Ground Zero (talk) 01:16, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[]
I'm okay with any of the three wordings. 1 and 2 strike me as almost equivalent, because the extra guidance in 1 is basically redundant with other parts of the policy. —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:47, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[]
I prefer #2. I'd say I'm okay with us including walking tour listings in our articles, but perhaps the number of walking tours listed per article should be limited (perhaps, to 3 listings per article or so? Maybe this could be included in policy text.) --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 02:29, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[]
I continue to be against the inclusion of any non-value-added tours. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:57, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[]

Even if all types of walking tours may be listed, do we need new language to more clearly state that?[edit]

Leaving the past and going back to 2021, I would ask the question of whether, if we do maintain a lack of restrictions on the kinds of walking tours that may be listed: Do we need to change the wording of this article to make it clearer that there aren't any "value-added" requirements for walking tours? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:33, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[]

Yes, the wording should be changed, as it's not at all clear from the policy that "a lack of restrictions on the kinds of walking tours that may be listed" has even been established. I quote myself:
"The only mention of walking tours in the policy is "This policy doesn't prohibit listing walking tours."; it doesn't say "All walking tours may be listed", and it certainly doesn't mean that (whether it was intended to mean that is another matter entirely). What the policy does say is "In practice this policy disallows listing most audio tours and guided tours since the substance of such tours can generally be fulfilled by an independent traveller, and the information provided on such tours should ideally be included in the appropriate Wikivoyage article." I would take "guided tours" to implicitly include walking tours."
You guys may have decided to allow all types of walking tours, but the resulting policy doesn't show this, nor does it make a distinction between walking tours and other types of guided tours. Because of this, I have interpreted the policy to mean that only "value-added" tours of any kind (i.e. including those made on foot) are permitted.
Despite Ikan Kekek's insistence to the contrary, I am not trying to change the policy; if there is in fact no restriction on the kind of walking tour which may be listed, and the "value-added" requirement only exists for other types of tour (if so, which tours?) then that's fine by me. I only ask that the actual policy be properly worded to reflect this fact. If I've misinterpreted the policy, the fault is not mine for failing to read a long historical thread, the fault is with the policy's wording not being clear enough.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:56, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[]
To be clear, I think you're trying to change the policy as I understand it, but I fully grasp your points about what the article appears to say. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:29, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[]
@Ikan Kekek: And to be doubly clear, I'm not trying to change the policy. There are many things of which you have a much better understanding than I do, but my own mind and intentions are not among those things. It's rather annoying that you won't take my word for this, and makes me question why I should bother commenting further when you won't show me such a basic courtesy.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:11, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[]
Apologies, but I'm having trouble following the sequence of events as each thread seems to link back to another one and refer to "current policy" without consistently quoting that current policy for future readers. I admit I didn't even know we'd changed the policy on walking tours at all. Now it seems we allow walking-tour listings as explicit exceptions to the "value-add" policy? Why in heaven's name? Powers (talk) 02:00, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[]
I shall quote from the thread copied from the archives:
Because all contributions here are effectively anonymous (Ground Zero isn't even my real name), we don't ever know whether a contributor is a tout or a traveller giving useful information. We can only tell if something sounds like touting. I don't see how a tout assuring us that his/her walking tour is informative, entertaining and stays crunchy in milk makes the listing any more or less worthy of having. We rely on the word of the contributor that the information they provide is accurate anyway. A clever tout doesn't use hyperbole, and will tell us what we want to hear. As with restaurant listings; as with hotel listings; as with rutabaga festival listings. Ground Zero (talk) 02:26, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
In any case, the entire point of this thread is that the current state of policy is not clear, but I think if you read through the posts I copied here, you will probably agree that a decision was made to allow walking tour listings without restrictions as to their content or whether you could do the same tour yourself without a guide. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:57, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[]

Dear all, having read through the past threads, I believe the policy can be made more clear on this so there is no need to come back to the same question over and over. I like the point of the tour to have "added value" however we should be more understanding of that term. I am not a guide myself (I use my real name, you can check it), but I am familiar with the travel industry. For example, added-value can be a particular knowledge (history, birdwatching, architecture, etc), access to specific gear without which you can't do that tour (jeep, climbing, kayak, camping, etc), or even the fact that it's not advisable to travel to certain places alone without a local guide for safety concerns (a site can be close to a border, it can be close to wild animal habitat, unsafe neighborhood, etc). There is probably more to this, but my point is that we need to look at the term value-added broader. --Nikoghosyanmarianna (talk) 07:32, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[]

Thanks for weighing in. Some of the things you mention are already explicitly part of the tour listings guidelines. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:14, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[]
"you will probably agree that a decision was made to allow walking tour listings without restrictions as to their content or whether you could do the same tour yourself without a guide." - Yes, that seems to have been the decision you guys made at the time, a decision which - I repeat - I'm happy to go along with and don't seek to change. But the wording of the policy ("This policy doesn't prohibit listing walking tours.") does not reflect the decision you made, which is why until last night I didn't realise walking tours had been made an exception to the 'value-added' requirement. That is the thing that needs changing.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:22, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[]

To make the wording clearer, maybe we should change the first sentence from "Tours can be listed on Wikivoyage as long as they constitute a value-added activity." to "Tours can be listed on Wikivoyage as long as they constitute a value-added activity or are done entirely by walking." AlasdairW (talk) 13:40, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[]

Thank you, that's certainly clearer. I would probably also get rid of "This policy doesn't prohibit listing walking tours.", which would be made redundant.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:56, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[]
About the "entirely by walking" clause: Imagine that Tourist Town has two guided tours. One happens on foot in a small area; one happens on bicycle in a large area. Both are organized by the local historical society. Do we intend to treat these differently? WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:58, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[]
Agreed. That's as clear as possible.
If anyone would like to reargue the policy, we should do that, too. Powers, would you like to start a new (sub)thread?
WhatamIdoing, bicycle tours are always listable, because they are considered a value-added activity. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:59, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[]
What is it that we intend to exclude? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:04, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[]
Put simply, most coach tours are excluded. AlasdairW (talk) 19:27, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[]
I think we should also clarify whether "ride your own bike tours" are included. Are "drive your own car" tours included - follow the orange leader's car and stop at several sites for commentary? I hadn't thought of either as value added, but tours where the hire of a bike, car or horse was included are value added. AlasdairW (talk) 19:58, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[]
I don't know. Do you think we should include those or not? I'm not sure. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:42, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[]
I would include tours by bike, skateboard, canoe etc. I am not sure about those by car, mainly because they can cover much larger areas outside the city that has the listing. A walking tour may be just of Edinburgh/Old Town. A tour by bike could cover a larger part of Edinburgh, but a tour by car might cover the Central Belt. AlasdairW (talk) 22:27, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[]
Maybe we should start by saying that basic restriction plainly: "Group tours by bus/coach are only included under extraordinary circumstances, such as when that tour is the only way to visit a restricted location."
Where WV:Tour currently bans "audio" tours, I assume that self-guided audio tours inside museums aren't exactly banned, just should be mentioned (if at all) in the normal listing for the museum. (Unless there have been disputes/confusion around that, then I think that line should be left alone.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:51, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[]
Yes, it's definitely fine to mention any type of tours a museum (or a cathedral or whatever) does in its listing, just not separately as additional listings. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:33, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[]

Why are walking tours special?[edit]

Contrary to what Ikan posted above, I don't find the previous discussions clear at all, though I'm not disputing the presence of a consensus (I just find it very hard to follow the conversation as it refers back to previous discussions and previous wording of the policy). But even if I accept the consensus, I'm still puzzled as to the reasoning for exempting walking tours *specifically* from a policy that otherwise seems to have served us very well in the past. Powers (talk) 22:11, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[]

To summarize the way this change in policy unfolded, I was one of the people who was unhappy about having to delete "free" walking tour listings over and over, so I proposed to allow free walking tours. Others pointed out that "free" tours usually informally required a tip at the end. Because it would have taken a lot of time and could cause a lot of disputes to determine which tours were really free - or if not free, good values - the question then became whether to allow walking tour listings or continue to almost always disallow them. And I have to say, I really don't think that our previous policy of nearly always deleting walking tours served anyone well.
My feeling is that this site mostly caters to independent travelers. Independent travelers don't take package tours and generally avoid guided bus tours. However, they might well enjoy a guided walking tour (or a bike tour, etc.), especially if the guide knows all kinds of things about local history that would be hard for them to know where to look up, themselves. It's really a question of how hard a line we want to draw between typical tourists on package tours and absolutely uncompromising independent travelers who hunt and gather for their own food and camp in tents they construct from local materials, etc. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:40, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[]
What is different about a guided walking tour as compared to a guided bus tour, from the perspective of the independent traveler? (And, relatedly, what does "independent traveler" mean in this case?) Powers (talk) 19:48, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[]
I see several differences between walking and bus tours:
  • Walking tours can only cover a short distance. So they "belong in the city" that they are listed in. A bus tour can cover 200 miles, and so it is not really relevant to the city it starts from (we could say bus tours less than 10 miles but that gets complicated).
  • Walking tours are generally run by small local operators, including non-profit heritage bodies and individual tour guides. Bus tours are more commercial, including operators which run tours in multiple cities, and tend to advertise more than walking tours.
  • Walking tours are much more likely to allow travellers to ask questions - contrast this with a taped bus commentary, or trying to ask a question when sitting in te back seat of a bus.
  • Walking tours are more likely to be part of an independently planned day in the city - many last 1-2 hours. Bus tours can be much longer, and include "14 day tour of the west coast".
I think that originally we were against guided tours as an attempt to encourage editors to create itineraries, but that has failed. AlasdairW (talk) 21:08, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[]
So is it only guided walking tours allowed by the policy? Or all walking tours, guided or not? Powers (talk) 20:45, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[]
All, of course. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:38, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[]
So non-guided walking tours are allowed, in part because they are generally run by small local operators and allow travelers to ask questions? I guess I just don't get it. Powers (talk) 01:54, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[]
Aren't non-guided walking tours usually done with information (either printed or an app or something) from a tourism bureau? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:14, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[]
I'm not sure I understand what "non-guided walking tours" means in this discussion. Are these self-guided tours where you download the information and follow it on your own, like our itinerary articles? —Granger (talk · contribs) 09:48, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[]
Or get the leaflet from the tourist office. I suppose we still require good value from tours listed, and if there is no information on why a tour is special, it can be removed with no thorough research. I understand bus tours are less attractive for independent travellers for many reasons, but the distance shouldn't be one of them. Tours that cover more than the city should go in Go next or in the region article, or whatever, but that is no reason to forbid them (the "history of the universe" walking tour over here, transforming years into (milli?)metres, crosses the city boundary – as do many hikes, guided or not). –LPfi (talk) 11:16, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[]
Distance is an issue for bus tours because touts can want to list them in multiple articles. A bus tour from Edinburgh may depart from a stop in Edinburgh/New Town, stop to pickup in Edinburgh/West, Falkirk and Stirling before going to Loch Lomond via Drymen and Balloch and returning via Callander. Do we want the tour listed in all 8 articles? AlasdairW (talk) 13:32, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[]
Well, it'd be listed in the regional article, I'd think. To answer a previous question, I guess I did mean "self-guided" rather than "non-guided". They obviously don't allow travelers to ask questions, though, so "you can ask questions!" seems like an odd reason to permit self-guided tours to be listed (especially when, say, bus tours, which do allow people to ask questions, are prohibited unless they provide a "value add" beyond what a person could do in a private car). And I'm still curious what is meant by "independent traveler" and why the site should focus on them versus non-independent travelers. Powers (talk) 15:03, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[]
You've been on this site and its predecessor longer than I have, have you not? Hasn't this site always catered to independent travelers? I would be OK with changing that focus, but if we do, we'll be once again in the position of having to spend time vetting bus tours, package tours, etc. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:39, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[]
Well I can't answer that because I'm still not quite sure what you mean by it. I don't remember seeing any policy documentation that mentions the term. Powers (talk) 21:49, 3 September 2021 (UTC)[]
There have been talk page discussions about this for ages, featuring departed admins as well as continuing ones. You really don't remember any of them? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:39, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[]
Getting back to a focus on language (though we can certainly talk about the differences between independent travelers and package/bus tour tourists): Do we need to change the language of the tour listing guidelines, and if so, what change should we agree to? Would it be better to enumerate what can't be listed than what can be? Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:46, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[]

Walking tours again[edit]

Swept in from the pub

To my understanding, any type of walking tour may be listed if the listing isn't touty, etc., but there is some disagreement about this. So if you have the time, please look at Wikivoyage talk:Listings#Another thread on walking tours. I've quoted rather extensively from existing relevant discussion that was archived, but I post at the beginning of the thread and also started a new subthread at the end about whether we need new language at Wikivoyage:Listings to lay out guidelines on walking tours more clearly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:37, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[]