Template talk:PartOfPhrasebook
Another new template, this time something that is actually useful[edit]
- Swept in from the pub
Another new template, and that is {{PartOfPhrasebook}}. In short, it works similar to how we categorise topics with {{PartOfTopic}} such as Wine Regions of Ontario is basically categorised into Category:Topics in Canada, the same way it's categorised into Category:Alcoholic beverages. Similarly, this template should also basically do something similar, the only thing is it does not change our breadcrumb structure, only our category structure. Currently, Category:Phrasebooks is somewhat an unfriendly long list, so this template does do a good job in breaking it up. The only article where this is currently used, at the time of writing this is the French phrasebook. On top of all this, this template also eliminates the need to use {{phrasebookguide}} as all the main purposes of that template is basically integrated into this. On how that template works, see the documentation page.
Some questions answered here:
- How much more difficult would this template be for newbies?
Well, it's just as easy to use as {{PartOfTopic}}, {{IsPartOf}}, or {{PartOfItinerary}}. If those templates are too hard to use, uhm, I don't know what to say.
- Regarding on how difficult to use this template for languages spoken across two continents.
It should be just as easy to use this template as {{PartOfTopic}}. But this shouldn't be too big of a problem as there's only about 10 languages spoken in more than 2 continents, and meaning that the chance of a newbie having to use any more than the first parameter is almost zero.
- What are the chances of needing to create a new category?
Zero, because there is already six categories there, and as silly as it sounds, only if a new continent arises.
But in short, this template is no different to how other the two already existing templates of {{PartOfTopic}} and {{PartOfItinerary}} would work
Feel free to ask me any questions re this template. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:45, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- Since these categories are not breadcrumbs, how would users find them? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- On Wikivoyage, categories aren't meant to be found by users, they are for maintenance purposes only. I don't think it is much easier to find a phrasebook among 120 Asian phrasebooks, than it is to find it among the total of 260 phrasebooks. And there is already a break-up in Phrasebooks. If you use some automatic means to check that all phrasebooks are indeed listed at that page, subcategories force you to go through all of them instead of being able to compare single flat lists. So what is the use case? –LPfi (talk) 17:56, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- Well, this is already how we treat itineraries, so if this structure seems like a problem, then we also have a problem with itineraries (the breadcrumb structure for itineraries also changed with no consensus a couple of years ago by Traveler100).
- re LPfi's concern, this template does not remove the page from Category:Phrasebooks, it only adds the page to the additional category, just like we do for itineraries (except the {{PartOfItinerary}} template is not capable of handling itineraries in two or more continents). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:03, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing the point. What's the point of these new categories? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:58, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- Organisation. Keeps things much more cleaner SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:59, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- Who would look at them? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:06, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- People like me who do some maintenance work. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 03:24, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- It does also help with expeditions as well, particularly continent expeditions such as WV:Africa Expedition or a future Wikivoyage:Oceania Expedition that I may propose in the future. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:46, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- For other expeditions, such as the Nigerian, you'll need a break-up on country level. I feel there might be no end on what structures we might need for different purposes. And adding a group of categories isn't making things cleaner, unless there was some problem to begin with, and I can see none in this case. When there is real work to be done, repeat your suggestion. Perhaps somebody can propose a solution which does not require adding more infrastructure. The itinerary case is different, as the itineraries are split over continental pages. –LPfi (talk) 07:58, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- I expanded the scope to country level. So something like Category:Australia language phrasebooks is useful for the Wikivoyage:Australia Expedition. Might be a good way to incorporate phrasebooks into country expeditions. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:35, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- That'd mean 200+ categories. And then you'd have to add French into how many of them? And Russian? –LPfi (talk) 10:00, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- Well, the sole purposes of country categories is for expedition purposes, and since not every country has its expedition. (so countries such as Finland or Norway won't have its own category since its part of the Wikivoyage:Nordic countries Expedition). Otherwise, they should all be sorted out by continent. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:06, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- And then you'd need a continental section category for the Nordic phrasebooks, or country categories for the union to be used at the expedition page. Having categories for some countries but not for others is not a clean solution. Then you'd rather have a category tree of Categories by expedition or somesuch. But let's solve the problems at hand, not build solutions for possible future problems. Which means, explain the problem at a project page and let's discuss possible solutions together. –LPfi (talk) 10:24, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- But even with country expeditions, not all of them will need a category. For example, the Portugal Expedition won't ever need its own category since Portuguese is the only language spoken in Portugal. But for countries like the Philippines or India where there's a whole heap of languages used, it would be particularly useful, even if both of them don't have individual expeditions. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:31, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- Heh-hem. w:Mirandese language --Nelson Ricardo (talk) 23:39, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- Interesting. Never know Portugal had
twothree well spoken languages, including English SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:41, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- Interesting. Never know Portugal had
- Heh-hem. w:Mirandese language --Nelson Ricardo (talk) 23:39, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- But even with country expeditions, not all of them will need a category. For example, the Portugal Expedition won't ever need its own category since Portuguese is the only language spoken in Portugal. But for countries like the Philippines or India where there's a whole heap of languages used, it would be particularly useful, even if both of them don't have individual expeditions. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:31, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- And then you'd need a continental section category for the Nordic phrasebooks, or country categories for the union to be used at the expedition page. Having categories for some countries but not for others is not a clean solution. Then you'd rather have a category tree of Categories by expedition or somesuch. But let's solve the problems at hand, not build solutions for possible future problems. Which means, explain the problem at a project page and let's discuss possible solutions together. –LPfi (talk) 10:24, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- Well, the sole purposes of country categories is for expedition purposes, and since not every country has its expedition. (so countries such as Finland or Norway won't have its own category since its part of the Wikivoyage:Nordic countries Expedition). Otherwise, they should all be sorted out by continent. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:06, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- That'd mean 200+ categories. And then you'd have to add French into how many of them? And Russian? –LPfi (talk) 10:00, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- I expanded the scope to country level. So something like Category:Australia language phrasebooks is useful for the Wikivoyage:Australia Expedition. Might be a good way to incorporate phrasebooks into country expeditions. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:35, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- For other expeditions, such as the Nigerian, you'll need a break-up on country level. I feel there might be no end on what structures we might need for different purposes. And adding a group of categories isn't making things cleaner, unless there was some problem to begin with, and I can see none in this case. When there is real work to be done, repeat your suggestion. Perhaps somebody can propose a solution which does not require adding more infrastructure. The itinerary case is different, as the itineraries are split over continental pages. –LPfi (talk) 07:58, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- Who would look at them? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:06, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- Organisation. Keeps things much more cleaner SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:59, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing the point. What's the point of these new categories? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:58, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- On Wikivoyage, categories aren't meant to be found by users, they are for maintenance purposes only. I don't think it is much easier to find a phrasebook among 120 Asian phrasebooks, than it is to find it among the total of 260 phrasebooks. And there is already a break-up in Phrasebooks. If you use some automatic means to check that all phrasebooks are indeed listed at that page, subcategories force you to go through all of them instead of being able to compare single flat lists. So what is the use case? –LPfi (talk) 17:56, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
The itineraries were split into continents because the main Itineraries page became unwieldy to navigate. This diff shows how it looked just before the split. On the other hand, Phrasebooks is easy to navigate on both mobile and desktop. There are less phrasebooks than itineraries as of now and it's easier to present all of them on one page because the links are generally shorter in length. I don't see a pressing need to restructure phrasebooks yet. Gizza (roam) 10:37, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- To reemphasise, this template does not place itineraries into new continent pages, it only adds an extra layer of categories. So this template will not change the hierarchy structure, it only adds to the unreadable category structure, and is meant to be a mere aid in an attempt to also bring phrasebooks to geographical expeditions as well as for better organisation within categories. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:45, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- (Edit conflict) Also, there was consensus to redo the itineraries page and create the corresponding categories. See Talk:Itineraries#Long_lists. Six editors were involved in the discussion. Gizza (roam) 10:47, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- There was consensus to redo the itineraries, but there was no consensus to use {{PartOfItinerary}} (which replaced {{Itinerary}}). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:58, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- (Edit conflict) Also, there was consensus to redo the itineraries page and create the corresponding categories. See Talk:Itineraries#Long_lists. Six editors were involved in the discussion. Gizza (roam) 10:47, 10 October 2021 (UTC)