Talk:Hagåtña

Changing name to Hagåtña

In 1998, the government of Guam passed Public Law 24-152 officially renaming the village of Agana to Hagåtña. The law can be found on GuamLegislature.org; to save everyone the trouble, here's a direct link to a pdf copy). This isn't a case of spelling it as Agana when writing in english, and Hagåtña when writing in Chamorro. While some areas of the village still retain the older name (e.g. Agana Bay, Agana Boat Basin, Agana Mall), the village itself is officially and colloquially referred to as Hagåtña regardless of the language being used.

To provide additional evidence of this, I'm listing below just a few random examples from official GovGuam and local media websites:

• Guam Election Commission showing the 2012 primary results, and referring to the village of Hagåtña.
• One of the island's two newspapers, the Marianas Variety, referring to Hagåtña.
• The other main newspaper, the Pacific Daily News, listing its address as Hagåtña.
• The Mayors Council of Guam directory of village Mayors, referring to Hagåtña (warning, pdf).
• Guam Legislature website, with the address listed in the right-hand column referring to Hagåtña.

I'm probably going overkill with the supporting links, but this is my first time using the talk page and I want to make sure I'm doing a good job. :-) Please let me know if any additional information is needed. If not, and there are no objections, can someone please click the "Move this page" link (as described here); my account is less than 30-days old, so I can't do it myself. Thanks! Kokobird (talk) 13:35, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm fine with this. The only issue is whether it's judged that because Agana is the more common name in English, we should keep it for now. So I'd like to hear whether there's any objection before we move the article with a redirect from Agana. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:42, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the guidance. You bring up a good point (re whether it's judged that because Agana is the more common name in English). With the links, I was intending to show that, even in English, "Hagåtña" is far more common than "Agana" (particularly with how all the English-only local media outlets refer to the village as Hagåtña, and never Agana). If anybody has any ideas on how else to provide additional evidence of this, please let me know (I've been wracking my brain and haven't come up with anything more). Kokobird (talk) 10:08, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for ignoring the links. So my feeling is, go ahead and move the page, keeping a redirect from "Agana." If you still can't do it, I'll try to remember to do it later, unless anyone pipes up with an objection. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:12, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't object to this move, but just for the record, providing the number of results that turn up for English-only searches of alternative names on Google is, by convention, usually accepted as kind of a proof for deciding which one is the most common name in English (I haven't checked the numbers for Agana vs Hagåtña myself, neither, though). Vidimian (talk) 14:51, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

I like the google search idea. I gave it a shot right now, though, and there may be some problems. While the village is officially Hagåtña, the mall and marina kept their old names (Agana Mall and Agana Marina). Also, there's another area of Guam, Agana Heights, that hasn't changed it's name (and, as such, people still refer to this other area as "Agana Heights" and never "Hagåtña Heights"). There also appears to be a DJ Agana and an Agana baby gear company, so the results may be skewed. I'm not sure if, in this case, google results may be much help. Kokobird (talk) 02:09, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Ikan Kekek and Vidimian for the input. My account is still too new to change page titles, but I'll do so as soon as I'm able. (Or, if either of you are able whenever you get a chance, that'd be great). Thanks! Kokobird (talk) 02:09, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Oh, yes, Google search results can be skewed in cases like this, when some well-known institutions kept the old name. This discussion started almost a week ago now, and given there are no oppositions, I'll be performing the move and updating the links — should an objection be raised, we can always discuss and revert later. Vidimian (talk) 10:29, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, after going through all the links you presented, I think I saw the diacriticless form (Hagatna) more often than the one with diacritics (Hagåtña) — was Hagatna where the article title should be moved to? (And the law mentions a name change in Chamorro language, not in English, as far as I can see, but I don't think we need to get into technical/legal matters.) Vidimian (talk) 11:01, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the move, Vidimian! Also, in regards to your comments/questions:

• Name change in Chamorro and/or English: I can see the confusion. The public law probably should have been worded better (something like "changing the official name of the municipality of Agana to its name in the original Chamorro language, Hagåtña"). To resolve the matter, I'm linking to the section of Guam Code Annotated that the law amended. It shows no mention of any spelling other than Hagåtña, regardless of language. I know you mentioned not wanting to "to get into technical/legal matters," but my intent is to just post all this info in case someone in the future has a question/concern. Overkill is my middle name. :-)
• Diacritics: Good question. Inclusion of diacritics is more common than not on official government communication, but in day-to-day practice it's certainly more common to leave them out (obligatory AintNobodyGotTimeForThat.gif). For the purposes of the page title, I'd argue that we should go with the official name per law, which includes diacritics (much like how the official name, "United States of America", is used as the title of its page instead of the more common "U.S."). Thoughts? Kokobird (talk) 01:26, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure. Wikivoyage:Naming conventions recommends using the most common name in English (whether it's the officially preferred version or not), and then goes on saying that if "there isn't an obviously correct English name, the title should be the most commonly-used name in the local language.", which, in this case, incidentally happens to be English! (Please correct me if I'm wrong, but after some reading about Guam throughout Wikivoyage, I'm under impression that the native Chamorro language is dying out in Guam in favour of English, but is alive and well in the Northern Marianas.) In cases like this without a clear-cut choice, the overruling guideline here is that "the traveller comes first". Which spelling would a traveller run across on, say, a bus sign or an airport board? However, this might be so tangential that it may not even matter — seriously, I don't think any sane and conscious traveller would get lost because we decided to name this article with the diacritics, or without the diacritics.

On the "U.S." vs "United States of America" issue: I presume a discussion should have taken place about this in some arcane corner of Wikivoyage that I'm too lazy and tired to locate now; and my guess would be that the long form was chosen eventually because it's an actual name, while "U.S." is simply an abbreviation. Vidimian (talk) 16:47, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Oh, and if we are settling with Hagåtña, which contains two letters that many of our readers may perhaps be unfamiliar with, could you please add a short notice somewhere in the article on how to roughly pronounce the word, if you can? Vidimian (talk) 17:08, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

All good points. Being new to Wikivoyage, I apologize for missing the naming conventions page; this definitely helps focus my efforts. And you are correct that English is, by far, the most common language on-island. Regarding which spelling will a traveller come across... this point definitely supports the shift from Agana to Hagåtña/Hagatna, as maps and signs these days do not refer to Agana (and could potentially confuse travelers when they come across the separate village of Agana Heights). But it doesn't clearly resolve the matter on diacritics. Street signs, tourist maps (I just checked a bunch that I have), and roadside point-of-interest markers all use diacritics. Restaurant/amusement brochures found in hotels, addresses listed in magazines, and advertisements tend to leave them out (and these are probably more in number). You're right that a person won't get lost if diacritics are or aren't included. Personally, if I had to choose, I'd probably argue for inclusion in order to match tourist maps; but I'm certainly not married to this stance. I'll defer to your experience on this. :-) Also, if you're comfortable keeping diacritics, I'll hunt down a pronunciation description to include. Thanks! Kokobird (talk) 02:48, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

This turns out to be one of the extreme cases that an English-speaking community doesn't have an exact name in English (or, at least, a clear preference on its spelling). In any rate, the new section I've added at Hagåtña#Understand should take care of all linguistic issues related to the naming. A short note on the pronounciation is still welcome, though, and it doesn't have to be the exact pronounciation in Chamorro; just how it is pronounced in the native variant of English is sufficient. Vidimian (talk) 14:23, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Great! Thank you for all your help. I've added pronunciation using the Wikivoyage pronunciation guidelines. Kokobird (talk) 04:40, 16 March 2013 (UTC)