Talk:Northern Territory

Permission

In regards to all Northern Territory information I have added, you may notice that some of the text I am adding appears in another website eg travelnt.com, that is because I am the original author. --Lex 11:39, 19 September 2008 (EDT) Please contact Ryan Campbell if you require confirmation.

Ryan Campbell Manager – Web and Digital Development Brand & Marketing Services Marketing Communications Tourism NT t: 61 8 8999 3919  : f: 61 8 8999 3920 e: ryan.campbell@nt.gov.au

Regions

We now got the Red Centre and Top End regions. Do we even need these regions in the first place? NT only has a few cities, but does have some amazing national parks. I think they easily fit within one article though and no further sub-divisions. I suggest we get rid of Top End (it doesn't fit our regional scheme, as it includes parts of Queensland and Western Australia). But then, what to do with Red Centre? I think it's a bit of a strange article, can't we just merge it with Alice Springs? (WT-en) Globe-trotter 21:43, 22 December 2009 (EST)

I think a good regional structure could actually be really useful - because so much of what there is to see doesn't lie within normal city articles, and touring around regions is a popular thing to do.

Putting the whole thing in one region makes for a very large region. Uluru is closer to Adelaide than it is to Darwin, and more than a couple of days drive.

However, I agree that the current top-end and Red Centre regions are not a necessarily the most useful division. Red centre makes a really nice region I think. So many people do the Alice/Uluru/McDonnell Ranges/Kings Canyon trip, and grouping those together makes sense - but I don't think the current article does it justice. So does Darwin/Katherine and Kakadu make a good region. Many people do that region in a trip. The question is how you put a region around the rest of the area, which includes an awful lot of nothing. --(WT-en) inas 22:04, 22 December 2009 (EST)

Top End and Red Centre do seem logical: one is lush tropical, while the other is red desert. And indeed, sights in these areas are often combined. We could include Tennant Creek in Red Centre, which would make it larger, but it's not like it can sustain its own region. The same logic applies to Arnhem Land: we could make it a whole region, but i'd rather just keep it a National Park article. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 19:10, 23 December 2009 (EST)

Or maybe the Tennant Creek Area could sustain it's own region? From north to south there's Runner Springs, Barkly Homestead, Tennant Creek, Devils Marbles Conservation Reserve, Wauchope, Wycliffe Well and Aileron. It might be a bit comical to give those their own articles though, as most of them have sleeping facilities but are really small. But as I have been at them, I could give it a shot.

See the NT Regions Map here [1] and here [2]. I think this is good for us to copy (except that we should include full Arnhem Land, not just the east portion). That would make the regions:

• Darwin (region)
• Katherine (region) (which could be combined as Top End)
• Arnhem Land (possibly also Top End)
• Barkly Tableland
• Red Centre.

We could also combine Darwin and Katherine into "Top End" (which sounds more logical), and maybe include Arnhem Land in that. If done that way, we'd have three or four regions, Top End, Barkly Tableland, Red Centre and possibly Arnhem Land. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 19:29, 23 December 2009 (EST)

Sounds good to me. 3 regions, using Barkly Tableland for the area between the Top End and Red Centre. --(WT-en) inas 21:26, 23 December 2009 (EST)

Map

This was featured as DotM back in 2008 and hasn't been touched since than except few minor edits. This is one of our few region articles at guide status so I think it should need a proper WV-styled map and I'm ready to do it but I don't the boundaries of the sub-regions. Please let me know if anyone knows. Other then that, I think some of the section needs to be expanded as well. Is anyone up for it? --Saqib (talk) 14:15, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Capitalisation

@Vaticidalprophet: regarding this edit, per Wikivoyage:Capitalization:

"Political or geographical units such as cities, towns, and countries follow the same rules: as proper names they require capitals, but as generic words they do not.

Incorrect (generic): The City has a population of 670,000.

Correct (generic): The city has a population of 670,000.

Correct (title): The City of Durban has a population of 670,000."

So we use "the Northern Territory ", but "the territory".

Wikivoyage follows the Wikivoyage:Manual of Style, and not the NT Tourism Authority manual of style. We don't work for NT Tourism. Ground Zero (talk) 13:53, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

I think this might be a matter that should get more second opinions from Australian/connected-to-Australia contributors -- especially if we happen to have any Territory locals. My intuition is to say "the Territory" is a proper name a la the City, and this is the usage I see in both tourist contexts and seeing locals write amongst themselves. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 14:01, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

I have posted a note at Wikivoyage:Requests for comment. Australia has ten territories. Is "the Territory" always understood in Australia to mean NT, and not the ACT or any of the other eight territories? Ground Zero (talk) 14:38, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

In my experience, yes (and the other eight territories are more like trivia questions than anything else). The ACT is the ACT (or indeed just Canberra -- a lot of people don't make the distinction in practice). "The Territory" would be understood to refer to the NT. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 14:45, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

@Ground Zero:. Stumbled across this discussion after nine months. From my experience:

1. when using "the territory" alone, it usually means the northern territory. The other nine (or eight excluding the Aus Antarctic Territory) are pretty insignificant, with two others with the name territory, the Australian Capital Territory is mostly referred to as "Canberra" and Jervis Bay Territory is mostly referred to as "Booderee National Park" (a rare case where an entire territory is called a national park more than the name of the actual territory)
2. however, on the other hand, "the territory" is not capitalised. I've rarely seen "the Territory" before, except in some TV programs and ads although that's largely irrelevant. The only major universal exception is when using title case
3. the same applies for "federal territory"

In my opinion, this isn't a case of "which variety of English" is used, unlike in NZ articles where U.S. would be written as "US", and so it should probably not be capitalised. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:42, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

To add some additional real-world sources: I originally gave as examples of "the Territory" in common usage this and this, which Ground Zero rejected as tourist marketing. I spot-checked three random articles on a variety of topics (one tourism, one human interest, and one COVID-19) at ABC News, a respectable state-run news organization, and found that all three (1, 2, 3) made use of "the Territory" as a proper name. Meanwhile, articles relating to the Australian Capital Territory (which was a slightly tougher search, as many of those articles were actually about national politics) universally refer to "the ACT" and save "the Territory" as a proper name for the NT (1, 2, 3). Vaticidalprophet (talk) 03:53, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

No info about crime in the "Stay safe" section

I'd like a second opinion before adding it, but I think the higher crime rates in the Northern Territory should get a mention, and it should be mentioned in the territory article, not just the articles of Katherine and Tennant Creek. From this ABC article, "It is 30 times the national rate of the USA" and United_States_of_America#Crime has much more than what is currently here (which is nothing). It's also worth noting that Darwin is considered Australia's most dangerous city, and w:Crime in the Northern Territory seems to confirm that crime in the NT is much higher than the six states + Canberra. As the stay safe section currently has nothing about crime, I think it should be mentioned, but I'd like another opinion before adding it. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:46, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Ttcf. Add it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:12, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

I started a bit on it, though it may need expansion. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:21, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Crime

@SHB2000: I've never been to the NT myself, but could you please have a look at the Crime section under Stay Safe? It looks kind of sensationalistic to me, so I have doubts about its accuracy. The dog2 (talk) 15:39, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

The sad truth is that the Crime section is accurate (as much as I wish it was sensationalistic) – much of it is alcohol-fuelled, hence the recent alcohol restrictions implemented in the Red Centre after Albanese's recent visit to Alice Springs. I'll give a full response when I come back home, but many of the ABC's articles about the NT have either got to do with defence or crime. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 21:40, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

@The dog2: I decided to rewrite the section. It's worth noting that crime is a hot political topic in the NT, hence the recent visits to Alice Springs by both PM Albanese and opposition leader Peter Dutton (though let's just say his visit was the classic "politician visit") about alcohol violence. I do hope this changes in the Red Centre after the recent alcohol restrictions, but the crime will still remain a hot topic for years to come. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 12:32, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

@SHB2000: Thanks. If you have the time, you should probably add that information about crime to the Darwin and Alice Springs articles too. I'm against sensationalism, but if they actually have high crime rates, it behooves us to inform potential visitors about it. The dog2 (talk) 00:29, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Tennant Creek has no "Stay safe" section and probably should if it's a high-crime place. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:10, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

@The dog2, Ikan Kekek: It's surprising how little we cover on crime in northern Australia (i.e. the NT and FNQ), but that's probably because before Albo's recent visit (early this year), few Australians were aware of how bad crime gets up there. I'll add a bit about crime in all three articles soon. For some further reading about the comparison with the US, here's a good ABC article that highlights an ongoing issue throughout the Territory. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 02:51, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Done. Alice Springs already has a section on crime, though. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 03:27, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

I never felt particularly unsafe when I visited Cairns, but it might just be because I didn't stray beyond the main tourist areas. But yeah, if Far North Queensland has high crime rates, we should also mention it in that article. When I was there, I heard that alcoholism and drug abuse is a major problem among Aboriginal communities, similar to the problems Native Americans face. The dog2 (talk) 03:28, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Me neither, but the difference between Queensland's and the NT's crime situation is Queensland's crime problem is worsening while the inverse is true in the NT (after the recent alcohol restrictions). I guess Cairns (and its immediate surroundings) is a bit of an exception, given it's a major tourist hotspot, but the differences are stark once you head north or west. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 03:36, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Do you think you can update the Far North Queensland article then? The dog2 (talk) 11:52, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Crime revisited

@SHB2000: Revisiting the wording of this section - there is no debate that there is higher crime than (Australian) average in the NT, but I do take exception to the '30 time more than United States' since the comparison is truly meaningless. The US doesn't have a uniform crime rate and the types of crimes committed are often not comparable. Also the statistic - 30 times - has no reference either. Therefore do you really object to its removal? Andrewssi2 (talk) 05:42, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I do have a source, from the ABC, which clearly states that "It is 30 times the national rate of the USA, a country notorious for gun violence." These aren't stats that I pulled out of nowhere and should be emphasised as the NT is a pocket of crime-haven in an otherwise safe country. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 05:57, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

OK... so it is somewhat more nuanced what you are trying to say - the murder rate of two specific (small) towns is 30 times the average of the United States. But again, the United States is a huge country of 300+ million, with large regional variations. If it is to give the visitor a frame of reference, then I still don't find the comparison helpful at all. Would you at least feel comfortable comparing to a city in the US with a known high murder rate? St Louis for example? Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:04, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

For which we don't have a solid source for. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 06:08, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Ah, we do :) w:List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate - as you can see the variation in homicide rates in that country is massive.

Now Tennants Creek has a homicide rate of 59.6 (from the ABC article). St Louis actually has a slightly higher rate of 66.07 - now if you were to tell an American that Tennants Creek was similar in danger as St Louis then that would be realistic. Or you could say twice as dangerous as Kansas City (in the news yesterday). OR five times as dangerous as Miami. What do you think would be a good city? Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:49, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Similar comparisons in other articles have been deleted as U.S.-centric. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:12, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Which is why I'd prefer to go with the ABC's (somewhat generalized) figure over a niche US city. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 07:19, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Exactly because that 30x stat is literally US centric - and unhelpful as well - I'm asking for a better way to do this? Andrewssi2 (talk) Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:23, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I suppose you could compare to the Australian homicide rate - 0.82 - that would give you more than a 60 times multiplier? Does that fit perhaps? Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:27, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

If the ABC (an organisation with far more experience than us) is putting that stat, you can safely assume they did so because they know what their readerbase can relate it with. But yeah, the Australian homicide rate works as well (I was initially resentful since we'd be technically using OR but with simple math but whatever). --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 08:13, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm usually a fan of the ABC - but honestly that article did not work for me with the comparisons. As you've been contributing, there are very serious crime issues in the NT, but comparing it to gun crime in the US frankly felt like it was trivializing the story. Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:28, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Crime - renting a car

@SHB2000 Question about this advice - "If you're renting a car, avoid choosing one that may attract vandals or thieves." - legitimately not sure what model/type of car I would look for to follow this advice. - Maybe a cheaper car like a Toyota Yaris might not attract vandals so much, but thieves probably target any new looking car? (and probably old ones as well). Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:48, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Perfectly summed up :-). --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 02:58, 17 February 2024 (UTC)