Talk:Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Percy's Hole

Nominated for Star on 25th February 2011

Star status criteria for dive site

Wikivoyage criteria:

Covers the topic fully.
Layout and listings either match the manual of style exactly or are the exception that proves the rule.
Prose is not only near-perfect grammatically but also tight, effective, and enjoyable.
At least one good-quality photo or illustration accompanies the article. Complies.
If practical it has a map identifying relevant destinations. Complies.

Diver criteria:

A diver competent to dive the site but without any local knowledge should be able to plan a safe and enjoyable dive using the information provided (in conjunction with a regional diving guide if applicable.) Complies.
Conditions during the dive should come as no surprise. Complies.

Checklist:

Leader paragraph

The site is named Complies.
Type of site specified Complies.
Geographical location given in general terms Complies.
- Nearest major landmark, near
- Nearest City in
- Region in
- Country.

Understand

A map showing the position and layout of the site in some detail, preferably to scale. Complies.
Reason/s why one would choose to dive the site. Complies.

Position

GPS position for the site. Should put a diver at least somewhere on the site, specify where if possible Complies.
Alternative range and bearing or cross bearings to well defined and reasonably close landmarks. Photos of landmarks desirable.
distance from launch site or harbour for boat access (km or N.miles). Distance should be along the usual route, not as the crow flies.

Name

Optional image of whatever the site is named after. (particularly desirable for wreck sites, where a photo or painting of the vessel or a similar vessel is preferred.) Not applicable.
Explanation of origin of the site name, translation if applicable. Complies as far as possible.

Depth

Maximum depth to be expected on the site Complies.
If applicable, shallowest point of the site Not applicable.
Average depth of a dive can be added if it will be useful.

Visibility

Range of visibility to be expected when conditions are generally considered suitable for diving. Complies.

Topography

Description of the layout of the site Complies.
General idea of slope, profile and rugosity Complies.
Description of major features and landmarks Complies.
Condition of wreckage if applicable Not applicable.

Geology

Only for rocky reefs
Type of rock, (geological age, name of formation optional) Complies.
Strike and dip optional if applicable Complies.

Conditions

What weather conditions will result in good diving conditions. Complies.
Any specific weather conditions which will result in unpleasant or hazardous diving conditions. Complies.
Any special oceanographic or weather conditions the site is known for. (sudden offshore winds, upwellings, currents, plankton blooms, thermoclines etc) if applicable
Information sufficient to allow a reasonably competent diver with a moderate understanding of the local weather and climate to forecast conditions during a planned dive over a short period (3 to 4 hours) when on site. Complies.

Facilities Complies.

Generally only for shore access dives
Facilities must be in close walking range of parking area or entry points
Facilities appropriate to divers and accompanying family only.(parking, ablution, fast food, dive services, picnic areas, security, beach, shade, etc)

Get in

Adequate directions to reach the site Complies.
A map or aerial photo indicating the position of entry/exit areas (only for shore entry ) if the main site map is not sufficient. Complies.
Sufficient text for a person who has no local knowledge at all to find the site and identify any access areas with confidence. Complies.
Photos of the standard entry and exit points if applicable. Complies.

See

Marine life and/or Features

Photos of at least three organisms or features one may reasonably expect to see at the site Complies.
Photos of organisms that are special in some way may be included even if not frequently seen, but it should not be suggested that a visitor is likely to see them
Description of what a diver may see during a dive Complies.
if the photos were not taken at the site this should be mentioned. Not applicable.

Photography

advice on photographic equipment (macro/wide angle, need for external lighting) if appropriate. Complies.
photographic opportunities that may be expected or hoped for if applicable. Complies.

Suggested Routes

generally at least one suggested or recommended route, with an indication of what the diver may expect to see. This may be a drift dive if applicable. "Follow the divemaster" is not really a route and will only be accepted if there are really good reasons, which are adequately explained. Complies.
Some indication should be given of how long a dive on the route will take, and if it is a long route, an approximate distance. This is not essential if it is shown to scale on a map. ~~needs more detail.~~ More detail added - complies.

Stay safe

Hazards

Site specific hazards of any kind, including access hazards if applicable. "No site specific hazards known" is null default, and implies that the local hazards are adequately described in the regional article. Complies.
Comprehensive listing of site related hazards (not regional hazards already in regional guide, ordinary diving hazards nor obvious sea/weather condition hazards). Advice on mitigation is optional. Complies.
security problems and land based hazards may also be mentioned if applicable. (theft/mugging risk, animals stealing food etc) ~~Baboons should be mentioned.~~ Baboons mentioned - complies.

Skills Complies.

Skills, competence or certification level required for diving at the site, if any.
Skills recommended for diving at the site, if any.
"No special skills required/recommended" is null default, this implies that a person trained to dive in the region will be able to handle the normal conditions for diving at the site.

Equipment Complies.

any equipment beyond the standard equipment listed for the region in the regional guide, either reqired or recommended for the site for safety of convenience. Reason should be specified if not obvious.
"No special equipment required/recommended" is null default, and implies that divers trained to dive in the region, or who have some experience diving in the region will know what is needed.

Star nomination discussion copied from Project:Star nominations

I guess its time to nominate the next dive site article for Star. This is actually the first site that I completed surveying, and it has a relatively complete map. It is also the site that originally inspired me to write dive site guides for the Cape Town region. I started diving at Percy's in ~~1883~~ 1983 and have dived there more than 100 times over the years, though not much recently. I have just gone through the article and found a few places that needed clarification, so have done that. I am fairly confident that the description is sufficiently complete, but need the outsider's perpective to illuminate my blind spots. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 12:06, 25 February 2011 (EST)

Since 1883! Wow, you're old! (WT-en) texugo 03:34, 4 April 2011 (EDT)

Thank you for those kind words. After that comment, I can't even correct the typo or people will think you have lost your marbles. 1983 it should have been. At least someone has read the notice, now I just have to hope somone reads (and comments on) the article. Cheers, • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 01:42, 6 April 2011 (EDT)

You can just cross it out and correct it like this: ~~1883~~ 1983 :) (WT-en) –sumone10154 17:30, 6 April 2011 (EDT)

Thanks, sometimes one needs to be reminded of these little details. Cheers, • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 03:59, 8 April 2011 (EDT)

Support, although I have a few questions/comments. The "Back to" link at the bottom of the page seems a bit odd - is it necessary and/or consistent with the other dive guides? Also, there are a handful of sentence fragments scattered throughout the article, and I wasn't sure if this was a stylistic choice or an oversight - for example, under "Facilities" it reads "Paved parking bay on seaward side of the road (R44). Sometimes crowded in the Kreef (Rock lobster) season but usually adequate". Finally, the pictures are great and I wouldn't remove any of them, but the large number makes for an odd page layout. Would it make more sense to use a <gallery> tag for the wildlife photos, or some other layout to present this better? With all that said, great job on another excellent dive article. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 21:45, 9 April 2011 (EDT)

I use a "Back to" link to reteurn to the sub-section of the main article that the link to the sub-article is from. This is useful because the main article is very long, and a bit of a hassle to find your way back to the area you were last examining. This is used consistently in all dive sites of the Cape Peninsula and False Bay articles for this reason. It was acceptable in the previous three Star nominations.

Sentence fragments are a hangover from the book that this was originally intended to be. Style has changed a bit since then, but not altogether updated. I will look into it.

I will consider a sub-sub-article with a gallery, as I used one in the first Star divesite after it was suggested by other Wikivoyagers. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 00:58, 10 April 2011 (EDT)

I think that having a column of pictures running the entire length of an article and well beyond the text is a sign that there are too many images period, per our minimal use of images policy. To my knowledge, using galleries is not a sanctioned practice around here anyway. I'd say you just need to cut out some of the images.

Also, rather than the "Back to" link at the bottom, couldn't you just use the IsPartOf template to have the breadcrumb navigation include that link? (WT-en) texugo 22:26, 9 April 2011 (EDT)

For the images, I'm imagining a gallery similar to Singapore#Local delicacies. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 00:19, 10 April 2011 (EDT)

Looks useful, and must be acceptable policy to have made it in a Star article. I will try re-arranging to suit.• • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 01:02, 10 April 2011 (EDT)

I just loaded Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Percy's Hole using Safari for mac and Firefox for mac and it looks good on both. The prior edit with the image list running to the bottom had display issues and was not wrapping with the {{starnomination}} template. I tried a preview using a different template in substitution and it did the same. (I only tried the substitution in Safari for mac browser). (WT-en) Pbsouthwood's recent rearrangement does not have any such issues. Nice article... -- (WT-en) felix 03:21, 24 April 2011 (EDT)

The addition of the image gallery is not displaying well for me. The vertical flush right runs down a little into the See section and then there is an unfortunate big white expanse with a messy intersection with the horizontally configured additional image display. The images themselves are very nice though and my personal view is that the article benefits from them. Hope this assists. -- (WT-en) felix 03:38, 24 April 2011 (EDT)

The images have been re-organised using small galleries as in the Singapore article. I had not seen (WT-en) felix's comments, and these may have been from before I finished the edits. It took some time to iron out the bugs, but I think those problems have been solved as they dont show on IE on my monitor. I will check on Firefox and Chrome for Windows. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 05:15, 24 April 2011 (EDT)

Hi Peter, rather oddly the horizontally displayed image galleries containing more than 3 images are not diplaying normallly nor are they wrapping. The outcome is that they jut or ingress into the banner ad area on the RH side of the browser window. In the case of both my Safari for mac and Firefox for mac page loads the page does not auto 'set' to cover that area so the 4th image is partially hidden and disappears out of the browser window requiring a scroll right to see it. I assume the embedded html is not sufficiently instructing the browser for display page width. (Note that my advert banner display prefs are set to off). Normally my browsers will not show this content area by default even if I widen out the window to full screen width. I have done a reload of both browsers and a cache clear and it repeats so I guess it is enduring. 3 images are OK even if the browser window size is reduced, they do not wrap but the display characteristics are normal to those I expect to see if I reduce a window width. I have not reset my prefs to displaybanner ads to see if the problem remains. Maybe this is a normal display characteristic but I do not recall seeing it before, however maybe I have just not noticed it. Grouping in a max of 3 images wide would appear to be the solution. I have not checked it on a cellphone or pda type device. Nice images, makes me feel like going for a swim but it is nightime now. cheers -- (WT-en) felix 06:45, 24 April 2011 (EDT)

Sorry Peter I should have also mentioned that the (big white expanse) issue I referred to before was indeed from before you finished the edits and that issue is no longer apparent, only the 4th image problem mentioned above. -- (WT-en) felix 06:56, 24 April 2011 (EDT)

No problems in display on Firefox and Chrome for Windows. I do have a wide screen though I usually view on a slight zoom at 125%. The problem you are having I can duplicate if I make the window narrow enough. The question now is, do I go to gallery width of 3 images, which is very narrow on my screen and makes double rows in placed, or stay with 4, which looks much better on my screen. I guess it should display well on the average laptop, so can somebody check for me which width works well on a laptop, as I dont have one. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 08:59, 24 April 2011 (EDT)

I have decided to just go with the 3 image width and rearranged the images to suit. This should give best all round appearance as approprite for a star nomination. I have also upgraded the map with routes, logo and a few formattig improvements. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 09:17, 24 April 2011 (EDT)

I am currently working on a 15" laptop as my 17" has a dead video processor. My (much older) 15" laptop is my back up and being an older machine the screen res is a lot lower, this also creates more fit problems however that screen size and resolution is possibly a good real world baseline. Your change to 3 wide still does the same thing with the ad banner area ingress but is virtually unnoticeable without actually looking for the problem. It looks and feels good and when reducing the browser window width the entire article wraps in a much nicer and more fluid way. The 4 wide was not actually a problem if my browser window was dragged out to a decent width as it will fit the 4 images. However a lot of people are using much smaller screens especially when travelling, also I often set the browser window a bit narrower if I am running other stuff in the background and I think a lot of other people may do that as well. I think you have done the right thing going to 3 wide, better to have a bit of white space over on the RH side of the page than any strange indenting into the ad banner area.

There seems to be another small problem now. The edit click points for all of the Understand sub-headings are lining up together. They are in a horizontal group of 5 and the group is flushed right and run up to the images. Same thing on both browsers and it seems they follow the images in position rather than the typography. Indeed the [edit][edit] [edit] [edit] [edit] aligns with the top left hand corner of the image captioned "View of the entry gully from the cliff on the north side." Seriously reducing the browser window width will make them independently wrap with one or two of them of them moving down the page, however even crushed up to absolute minimum width three of them still cluster together, on max window width there are 5 clustering together. It seems odd and as it is happening on both Safari and Firefox (for mac) then it is either some strange Mozilla thing (the two browsers are related at a low level) or something else is up. Aside from that the article looks great and it surely must be getting this star pretty soon. -- (WT-en) felix 12:47, 24 April 2011 (EDT)

That's a MediaWiki bug; you can see it, not infrequently, on Wikipedia and other wikis. (WT-en) LtPowers 15:32, 25 April 2011 (EDT)

I get that all the time on IE. Wikipedia and Wikivoyage. Its a bit of a pain as it can take some time to find the right one. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 04:22, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

Yes I get it sometimes both on WT and WP and it is a pain but I was not sure if it was something in the markup that set it off. I did not realise it was X-platform (mac and PC), rather I assumed it was something that arose from and incompatibility with the specific browsers used on macs. This article must be ready for the star by now surely. Support from me for what ever it's worth. I was glad to read the Baboons were dealt with. Did not imagine they had a lot of effect on diving but I guess I should get out more. -- (WT-en) felix 14:31, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

Baboons can be a serious nuisance in the southern Cape Peninsula, where tourists have gotten them accustomed to handouts, and they have now learned to open car doors and help themselves. They hang out in gangs and are always on the lookout for easy pickings. Leave your car open at some places, and you may find it looted with contents strewn around the road. At Rooi-els they have learned to break into unoccupied houses, but not yet cars. We are not able to persuade them that divers dont carry anything worth stealing, because they can smell that it is not true. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 16:51, 27 April 2011 (EDT)

Support. As ever, love your work Peter.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 21:27, 27 April 2011 (EDT)

It has been a month and no more comment, so I guess I will slap on the star. Thanks to everyone for the comments, as usual they have all helped to improve the article. Cheers, • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 07:35, 30 May 2011 (EDT)