Wikivoyage:Travellers' pub

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Experienced users: Please sweep the pub

Keeping the pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it gets too noisy and hard to read. If you see an old conversation (i.e. a month dormant) that could be moved to a talk page, please do so, and add "{{swept}}" there, to note that it has been swept in from the pub. Try to place it on the discussion page roughly in chronological order.
  • A question regarding a destination article should be swept to the article discussion page.
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  • A simple question asked by a user can be swept to that user's talk page, but consider if the documentation needs a quick update to make it clearer for the next user with the same question.
  • A pointer to a discussion going on elsewhere, such as a notice of a star nomination or a request to comment on another talk page, can be removed when it is old. Any discussion that occurred in the pub can be swept to where the main discussion took place.
Any discussions that do not fall into any of these categories, and are not of any special importance for posterity, should be archived to Project:Travellers' pub/Archives and removed from here. If you are not sure where to put a discussion, let it be—better to spend your efforts on those that you do know where to place.
QA icon clr.svg


Problems on big screens[edit]

Main page
Article with too small banner

I've just set my new screen up. Now I have noticed that your pages does not look very nice on my screen. The main page as well as the normal articles. Everything is too small. Especially the main page looks really strange. I am not sure whether you have discussed this already. I have added tweo screenshots. Centering the content could be a first solution, I think. I have a 27" screen (2550 pixelks width). Meanwhile these screen are not that exotic any longer and people will use it at home as well (like me). So we should consider such screens as well. -- DerFussi 09:07, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

Also something I noticed on my 24 inch screen. The first one is down to our banner templates which scale images down to 2100 pixels no matter the source resolution (I upload banners in as high a resolution as possible in anticipation that this will be increased). --Andrewssi2 (talk) 09:20, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
I usually just enlarge the browser scale with 'ctrl +' or ctrl mouse scroll wheel (or in your case maybe (Strg +). Not sure with web browsers but I have other applications that have a HD screen menu customisation option to make icons larger pixel sizes, also useful on high pixel count tablets. --Traveler100 (talk) 12:22, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
It's a bit tricky trying to find a balance between supporting very hi-res screens and not forcing users on smaller screens to download huge images. At the moment the DOTM/OTBP/Featured banner images are limited to 1700px width but they are still 230kb for Hilo, 284kb for the phrasebook, and 496kb for Kyoto, which is way too much for someone on a small screen. It's probably worth looking at how the pagebanner code sends different sized images to different users and seeing if that can be leveraged for the main page.
For now, those with a large screen can add the following to your User:UserPage/common.css file, which I think will allow page banners and everything but the map on the main page to stretch to larger sizes:
.banner-image {
    max-width: 100%; 
#mainpage-map {
        max-width: 100%;
.wpb-topbanner, .wpb-topbanner img {
        max-width: 100%;
.jcarousel-wrapper {
        max-width: 100%;
Fixing the map requires getting rid of the 1125px limit in Template:Mapbanner, but since doing so will add to the page size for users on small screens I haven't changed it. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:16, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
The problem is not my own screen. I can live with that (WV is part of my life). The problem are our readers and visitors that come over here by using search engines. Or journalists or blogger who want to write about us. They don't know about personal css files. And we can not expect that they create personal css files befor using WV. They also dont want to use browser magnifying shortcuts. They look at it and think: Oops, it looks quite nonprofessional - and go. And the article banner in Phnom Penh on the screenshot looks nonprofessional. In worst case we get bad advertising. We do not make this website for us, we make it for them. We should not forget that. The website should look acceptable (not perfect) on all screens and devices (desktop, table, phone). WV/it at least centers the content on main page. Look more acceptable to me than left aligned. -- DerFussi 07:32, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
To clarify, I'm not suggesting personal CSS as a long-term fix, I'm suggesting it is something you can try for now to see if it helps to resolve the problem until we can find a long-term fix. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:34, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
So if I understand correctly it is not the size of the image that has been uploaded but a restriction of what the pagebanner downloads to the viewer? Can it not be smart enough to know what screen size it should build too? People who are on wide screens generally do not have a bandwidth issue. On the usability side though, I think it would be good to download large images to high definition medium sized screens for better quality but I question the usefulness for large screens. It really is not good to have such a wide page to read paragraphs of text, it is difficult for the eye to trace back to the start of the next line when more than about 15 words per line. Generally I either set browsers to large zoom, or not the whole width of screen or move to second or third screen which is in portrait position (as people still insist on publishing documents that are portrait not landscape format). --Traveler100 (talk) 16:05, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
If the pagebanner adjusts the download based on viewer width, it should use the width of the browser window, not that of the screen. I for one only at rare occasions maximize the browser window. --LPfi (talk) 20:10, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
Good point, window width is the deciding factor not screen width. Due to reading line length I also tend not to do full screen. --Traveler100 (talk) 20:20, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
Of course it depends on the browser width. Nobody doubts about it. But i think its not useful (and shortsighted) to base a web design on the own browsing behaviour. A website should at least show not any glitch on all screen sizes. Thats what I wanted to point out. I think its very useful to use some time to set some css for @media (min-width: 1900px) {}up. -- DerFussi 05:50, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Note many sites limit a column max width on the content area. There are good reasons behind this, even if it seems counterintuitive - readability improves. It's dangerous and unfair to assume "People who are on wide screens generally do not have a bandwidth issue". A large image could be loaded on a large screen but this means a user on a slow/expensive connection may be punished simply for having a large monitor. The site gets slower and user engagement may drop/ I'd strongly urge the community to limit the entire content area rather than thinking about loading larger banners. Jdlrobson (talk) 20:53, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
Well, there is every permutation of user here I guess, from a massively wide monitor on a low bandwidth connection to an iPhone on 4G. There isn't 'one size fits all'.
I would urge however against being too precious about this point. The obvious trend over the past 10 years has been ever increasing bandwidth in all parts of the world and it will continue to be the case. If we extend the banner across the width of the browser window it is not going to exclude anyone. Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:45, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
I would urge you to read this report. 2G and slower connections are much more important than you might think. "The majority of the mobile users in the world uses a 2G connection, the growth will happen in the countries where the 2G usage is highest. And proxy browsers usage is low so it doesn't solve the problem. We need to have a site that is fast on 2G." Jdlrobson (talk) 18:00, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
There is no requirement whatsoever for the site to be 'fast on 2G'. The banner is basically another image on the article, no more and no less. It is distasteful to suggest people with 2G connections want to have a low quality experience, especially since most of those 2G connections will upgrade rapidly over the next 10 years. In any case there is a separate template used for mobile devices, and the banner is scaled down accordingly for that. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:49, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
It's not just a 2G question; voyagers relying on mobile data are likely to be either roaming at some inflated price or using a local pre-paid SIM with relatively limited data support. A dime a megabyte is typical for those sort of plans here, with wide variation in the number of megabytes in the bundle. K7L (talk) 02:53, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Main Page: max-width of Template:Bottomboxes[edit]

How about setting a "max-width: 1125px" CSS property at the table in the Template:Bottomboxes used on the Main Page, so that the it does not extend in width beyond the map and the other box on top. This can be a temporary solution, but will make the main page look better in the meantime. Xsobev (talk) 18:37, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Suggestion for Twitter - quick and easy fix (I guess)[edit]

Our Twitter seems to have become largely dormant. I suggest the following Quick and easy fix in absence of anything more elaborate that would need more resources. Let's just have it tweet our "discovers" with links once they enter the discover main page. Thus far we have always produced enough discover sniplets and it may be able to be implemented with an automated system. What do you think? I think it's better than nothing, absent an enthusiastic user manning our Twitter handle... Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:50, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

@Hobbitschuster: This idea sounds good, as it only needs someone to copy and paste the sniplets (I like that word) into Twitter, and having just checked, most of the ones at the bottom of WV:Discover are under 140 characters.  Seagull123  Φ  21:32, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
@Hobbitschuster: @Seagull123: I usually tweet using the italian Wikivoyage Twitter account (with only few followers). I can suggest to schedule tweet using tweetdeck: in an hour it's possible to schedule many tweets (especially if you already have the text to copy and paste) and then you don't have to remember daily/weekly to post a new tweet. I hope to have been useful. --Lkcl it (Talk) 18:49, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. Anybody else got an opinion on that? Ikan? Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:24, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
I don't really have an opinion, except that if you'd like to handle the Twitter account, great! Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:48, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
@Lkcl_it, Hobbitschuster: The idea of scheduling tweets sounds good, as then it lessens the workload of anyone using the account even more than just copy and pasting from Discover daily.  Seagull123  Φ  21:10, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Is there a technology available to ban invite links for e.g. uber?[edit]

Seeing this edit (unfortunately it's nontrivial to revert, as it is "buried" under somewhat useful edits), I am wondering, is there a way to ban such "invite" links before they happen? I know they are against policy, but so is touting and it never kept anybody from trying... Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:50, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

@Hobbitschuster: If this is still an issue: there is a thing called AbuseFilter. Commons admins seem to use it quite frequently for similar tasks … --El Grafo (talk) 15:21, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Server switch 2016[edit]

The Wikimedia Foundation will be testing its newest data center in Dallas. This will make sure Wikipedia and the other Wikimedia wikis can stay online even after a disaster. To make sure everything is working, the Wikimedia Technology department needs to conduct a planned test. This test will show whether they can reliably switch from one data center to the other. It requires many teams to prepare for the test and to be available to fix any unexpected problems.

They will switch all traffic to the new data center on Tuesday, 19 April.
On Thursday, 21 April, they will switch back to the primary data center.

Unfortunately, because of some limitations in MediaWiki, all editing must stop during those two switches. We apologize for this disruption, and we are working to minimize it in the future.

You will be able to read, but not edit, all wikis for a short period of time.

  • You will not be able to edit for approximately 15 to 30 minutes on Tuesday, 19 April and Thursday, 21 April, starting at 14:00 UTC (15:00 BST, 16:00 CEST, 10:00 EDT, 07:00 PDT).

If you try to edit or save during these times, you will see an error message. We hope that no edits will be lost during these minutes, but we can't guarantee it. If you see the error message, then please wait until everything is back to normal. Then you should be able to save your edit. But, we recommend that you make a copy of your changes first, just in case.

Other effects:

  • Background jobs will be slower and some may be dropped.

Red links might not be updated as quickly as normal. If you create an article that is already linked somewhere else, the link will stay red longer than usual. Some long-running scripts will have to be stopped.

  • There will be a code freeze for the week of 18 April.

No non-essential code deployments will take place.

This test was originally planned to take place on March 22. April 19th and 21st are the new dates. You can read the schedule at They will post any changes on that schedule. There will be more notifications about this. Please share this information with your community. /User:Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 21:08, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

This is over. If you found any problems, please let me know. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:12, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
And it's all been switched back to the Virginia servers, somewhat faster and definitely with fewer surprises. Again, if you see any problems, please {{ping}} me. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:26, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Couple of things about the visual editor[edit]

Hi, everyone. I've got a couple of things that I want to run past you.

First: if you haven't looked in Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-betafeatures for a while, then you might want to turn on the visual editor, and if you work on multiple wikis, then try "enhanced notifications", too. (That's the "let me know here, if someone pings me at Commons" tool.)

Next: The visual editor is pretty awesome for some kinds of editing (especially tables), and I think you should consider getting it turned on by default, rather than in Beta Features. On average, half of the new editors are using it by preference, and people running edit-a-thons and training programs tell me that it is far and away the preference among new editors there. It pretty much works like a rich-text e-mail editor, or editing a word processing document. This means that "improve the article" involves "clicking Edit and editing" rather than "clicking Edit and trying to learn wikitext". I think you'll be happy with the results.

Related to that: mw:Design Research is looking for experienced editors (hundreds or thousands of edits to any project, probably more than a year old) who haven't used the visual editor before (or at least not much/not recently). The usual setup is a scheduled video chat via Google Hangout on Air (or maybe Skype?) for 30 to 60 minutes, in English. To run the visual editor, you'll need to have a reasonably modern web browser (>95% of you already do) and to have Javascript turned on. They're mostly focused on the Wikipedias, but it might be good to broaden their horizons. 😉 If anyone's interested, please let me know. A note on my talk page or an e-mail message would be great. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:57, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

What needs to be done to "get the visual editor turned on by default"? I assumed Wikimedia would do that when they felt it was ready - is there something each wiki is expected to do? -- Ryan • (talk) • 19:20, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
When the Visual Editor was initially introduced, it was turned on by default on various wikis (Wikipedia in particular). At the time it was quite clearly not ready for the world - very slow, not able to edit one section without editing the entire page, rather braindead in its handling of tables and templates. The backlash to that move left us with the odd "edit" and "edit source" links as damage control. I'm not sure I want to revisit this? K7L (talk) 19:38, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
If I understand correctly, only users with the beta "visual editor" feature enabled see "edit / edit source". If I view a page anonymously I just see "edit" and it uses the wiki source editor, not the visual editor. Ideally it should not be necessary to enable a beta feature in order to give users the choice between editing wiki text or using the visual editor. -- Ryan • (talk) • 19:52, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
I have just used the visual editor to make a couple of edits to Wrocław, fixing broken links. The editor looks better than it did a year or so ago when I tried it on WP, but needs some work before being good for WV. It needs some customisation, like we have for the regular editor, to remove cite and add buttons for inserting listings. Clicking on a listing brings up a template editor which is poor compared to our listing editor. AlasdairW (talk) 21:27, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
It also screwed up the ordering and positioning of the fields in the listing templates: for example look for "Museum of Architecture" or "Novocaina" (see diff). 11:13, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
I have also used it to edit Aberdeen and Kilcreggan, and when I reviewed the differences I noticed what looked like extra changes. Although it is a nice feature to have, and is good for fixing dead links because the template's message appears in yellow, I do think that some work is needed before it is turned on my default. It is not available for articles in the Wikivoyage space, so I couldn't use the Wikivoyage:Graffiti wall to try things, and this edit had to be made using the source editor. AlasdairW (talk) 21:01, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Issues with Visual Editor[edit]

I thought that I would start a list of issues with the visual editor on Wikivoyage, beginning with those that I have seen in the past couple of days. Don't take the length of the list as an overall comment on the editor. Please add to the list as you find things. AlasdairW (talk) 22:35, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

  1. Customisation for Wikivoyage as needed, similar to that in place for the source editor, removing features rarely used like cite and adding listing template buttons for See etc.
  2. The order of entries in a listing is sometimes changed when that field is unchanged, showing spurious differences.
  3. There is no obvious way of cancelling an edit.
  4. When edit is selected for a section, the complete article is opened for editing. Edit summaries may give the wrong section for the edit as a result (e.g. an edit may start in the Eat section, but also make changes to Sleep, and by default the summary would be Eat).
  5. Editing listings is awkward - maybe it could use our normal listings editor.
  6. The table of contents links in the pagebanner appear during edits, but don't do anything.


Ryan, yes, the basic process is that the WMF turns it on. However, they don't want to just surprise everyone, and they definitely want to know whether it works well first. For example, I tend to agree with the suggestion above to kill the Cite button. The automagic mw:Citoid service is awesome, but it's not relevant. Changing the "default" means that you don't have to personally opt-in to it in your preferences. (All logged-in editors would still be able to opt out.) Also, although it's probably not necessary for a smaller wiki like this, it's possible to change the default for logged-in editors and IPs on different dates. They've done that at most of the large Wikipedias, to give editors a chance to get used to it.

K7L, there's a new feature that lets you choose whether to have two tabs ("Edit" and "Edit source") or just one ("Edit") that does whatever you want it to do. It's currently visible at the Wikisources, Wiktionaries, and three Wikipedias: hywiki, plwiki, and enwiki. Most existing editors are leaving the default setting, which is a single tab that opens whichever editing environment they used last – which, for most of them, is the wikitext editor. At the Hungarian and Polish Wikipedias, the visual editor is the primary editing environment, so IPs get that first (with a button to switch to wikitext). At the English Wikipedia, the wikitext editor is primary, so IPs get that.

AlasdairW, I really appreciate your testing and starting this list, and I hope that you and others will expand it. The template editor depends upon TemplateData, which half the listing templates don't have yet. It strictly follows the order of the parameters in the TemplateData, so if the order isn't what you want, it will definitely get it wrong. (I assume the order should be what the current listing editor does). Given how few templates we have here, and how frequently the listing templates are used, I do not believe that VisualEditor should be offered to by default unless and until that has been fixed.

I can ask to have it turned on for the [[Wikivoyage:]] namespace if you would like to use it in the sandbox. This could probably be done as soon as next week, if we make the request (in Phab:) soon. It's not really designed for comments on pages like this (e.g., no support for association lists, and therefore no ability to use half of that listing style to indent comments), but it's possible to add a normal signature, and you could edit any page in the namespace. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:45, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Update: I've got two requests in the system now.
The first is about getting quicker access to the listing templates. A Wikipedia editor suggested a drop-down menu on the toolbar; what do you think of that idea?
The second is to move the Cite button out of the main toolbar, and into the "Insert" menu (just in case anyone wants to edit the Dutch phrasebook, which currently uses two ref tags). There are a couple of other Wikivoyages that seem to use footnotes more often. If anyone knows a bit more about those Wikiovoyages, I'd be happy to hear whether this will work for you, too.
I haven't filed a request to have the visual editor enabled for the [[Wikivoyage:]] namespace yet (it'd let you edit the sandbox, among other pages). I thought I should wait until someone actually agreed to that idea. We can't enable it for the sandbox alone; it's everything in a namespace, or nothing. It is available in the User: namespace, so you could always use User:Whatamidoing (WMF)/sandbox as a place for testing. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:57, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

DotM attention banner?[edit]

Again many of the articles nominated for a month on the Main Page could use more voyagers to check them through/support them on the nominations page, in particular five out of six upcoming travel topics would need some more support votes.

However, this is not the first time this happens, we seem to have the same problem every couple of months. When the issue is brought up here in the pub voyagers do come and help out with the nominated articles, but 2-3 months later we are back at square one as the next bunch of articles are in need of more attention…

To avoid having to start a thread here in the pub every time this problem arises, I suggest putting a banner on the top of the pages (along the lines of the "We will be performing server maintenance..." banner that's up as I'm writing this) whenever, say, more than half of the articles in the table need more support. What do you think? ϒpsilon (talk) 13:32, 21 April 2016 (UTC)


Sealand was recently merged to Felixstowe by User:Traveler100, but I'm not sure it was the right move. The listed reason for a merge was "no place to stay", but that's simply not true. Sealand is a place, where people sleep. Just because there are no commercial hotels doesn't mean it fails the "sleep there" test. Sealand is likely more well-known than Felixstowe, and in fact I'm not even sure why Felixstowe is even involved; is it the nearest settlement? It just seems odd to redirect a place that people might actually search for to a place most people have never heard of. Powers (talk) 02:08, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

A merge is certainly not appropriate in this case. Furthermore, given how often the sleep test is misapplied, I think it may be time to look at making some edits to wiaa to really drive the point home that the lack of any hotels, etc. doesn't actually preclude a place from getting its own article. Frankly, I'd go so far as to ask whether the sleep test muddies the waters too much to be worthwhile and whether maybe we should look at other analogies for the dividing like between what kind of place does/does not get its own article. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:50, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
People sleep at my house and yours I would assume, but I see nothing on the Sealand web site to say members of the public and stay there or even visit the platform and no places to buy food. The web site just appears to be a fund raising and merchandising site so that the current occupiers can maintain it and live there. Did not appear to me to be a place for travellers to stay. Yes it deserves an article on Wikipedia, but on Wikivoyage is it more than a See attraction? --Traveler100 (talk) 06:51, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
I'm going to support dropping the sleep test or at least fixing wiaa. It only seems to create ambiguity as it stands.
Sealand is a unique destination, and not (in a simple sense) part of the British mainland and so should not have been merged. I'd say that it should be created again. The article is only as tenuous as the place itself. Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:53, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
Would this not just open up the flood gates for articles on places such as Freistaat Flaschenhals (which does have places to stay and eat), and a number of forts and castles in Europe (which can be visited), as well as privately owned plots of land and islands around the world? I think these are better handled as See listings or mentioned in Other destinations in the appropriate region article. --Traveler100 (talk) 08:12, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
Check out Bir Tawil , an interesting travel location with no infrastructure whatsoever :) --Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:27, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
Well if you are intrepid enough, and not risk averse, you can camp in Bir Tawil. My point with Sealand is that it is just a structure with now (Bates dies in 2012) some private individuals trying to earn money from a website. --Traveler100 (talk) 08:41, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
Sealand is a former offshore fort, similar to a small offshore oil platform. It was occupied in the 1960s, and has made claims of being a country, but this has not been seriously recognised by any other country or the UN (there are some claims of recognition). It appears that when the article was created, visits were possible (visits may have stopped before the article date), but the website now says that visas are not issued. I recently saw a report about it on TV, and they did allow a journalist to visit, but there appeared to be only one occupant, and there were clearly no facilities for visitors. I think that merging it was probably not a good idea, and either delete or leave as a "can't visit at the moment" outline. AlasdairW (talk) 20:52, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
So with respect to [wiaa], basically I would like to make a distinction between destinations that are better merged up to the nearest town to help the traveler (i.e. Hamlet X should be merged into nearby Town Y), and unique destinations such as Sealand that are obviously not general travel destinations and also do not fall under an obvious hierarchy. Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:00, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
Ah yes, Hamlet X. "To be or not to be, that is the question..." K7L (talk) 00:50, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
I chuckled. Though this does seem to be a serious issue... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:06, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
I think that we should not usually try to merge islands (which Sealand is ignoring the "country" issue). It is usually straightforward to sleep in Town Y and visit the sights in Hamlet X or vice versa. Unless there is a bridge between them staying in one island and visiting another can be difficult and require planning of ferry times, even if the two islands are yards apart. AlasdairW (talk) 22:41, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
So what if we stumble across a thousand islands, do we write an article for each? Some of them are only reachable by cruising on small craft and quite a few hold little more than an individual cottage. Montréal or Manhattan, on the other hand... K7L (talk) 01:45, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
This is where the 'can you sleep there' test really helps. If you're going to stay there a few days, then you'd like an article on the island. If you're going to stay in a nearby town, and just visit the islands, then we don't give them an article. Sealand is a very special case. There may be a good reason for doing away with the 'can you sleep there' test after all this time, but this shouldn't be it. --Inas (talk) 05:05, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

How to kindly request to consider merging existing article to new article of larger scope?[edit]

Archipelago Sea should IMO be merged to Sailing in Finland. but {{merge}} doesn't seem the right template to give people time to digest this move. --Jukeboksi (talk) 20:50, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Not sure what the problem is with the merge tag. Would place the merge tag on the Archipelago Sea and the {{Merge from}} on the Sailing in Finland page. On the first page's talk page please explain why you think they should be merged and not kept separate, as it does on first inspection not make sense to me? Then leave it a few week if you think people need time to digest. --Traveler100 (talk) 21:45, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

A podcast about Wikivoyage[edit]

For those of you who enjoy listening to podcasts, AndreCarrotflower and I both took part in an episode about Wikivoyage and travel writing for the Source Code Berlin podcast (associated with Wikimedia Deutschland). I invite you guys to listen, maybe leave some feedback, and enjoy! PerryPlanet (talk) 21:08, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Thank you! - Matroc (talk) 13:45, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
Good podcast. Maybe it will even draw an eyeball or two to our project... Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:21, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
Listening to it right now. It's good advertising for WV, so let's hope as many people as possible stumble upon it. Thumbs up to Andre and Perry. :) ϒpsilon (talk) 19:12, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
When listening, please bear in mind that I don't lisp like that in real life. It was a bad Skype connection. :) -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:00, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
Hi there, it's so much fun listening to you ;) Thanks! Danapit (talk) 20:04, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
I, on the other hand, frequently do sound that hyper and stuttering, especially when I start getting enthusiastic about something. ;) PerryPlanet (talk) 01:25, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
Thanks to Andre and Perry for contributing, and the producers for a very polished podcast. Nicely done, hopefully it garners some attention for the project. -- Ryan • (talk) • 03:35, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Jinotega lost a lot of pictures[edit]

Besides the problems with this guide we had discussed earlier, it has now lost a lot of pictures due to copyright issues. What should we do? Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:13, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

There's not much you can do other than find additional photos on Commons, search Flickr for CC-compatible images to upload to Commons, or physically go there to take photos. Anyway, even as it is now the article still contains three photos, which is less than it might have but not problematic per se. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:15, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
I'd definitely spread out those pictures we still have within the article. Powers (talk) 15:40, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
The article also seems to confuse the city itself and the "departamento" Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:08, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Adding traveller routers and carsharing and ridesharing services information from Consum(er)ium[edit]

How would one go about the task of incorporating this content?

--Jukeboksi (talk) 14:46, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure we want Wikivoyage turned into this sort of link farm? We link to the official site for each individual {{listing}} but otherwise links tend to be used sparingly or not at all. Hotel price aggregators in particular is just one long list of links to travel middlemen or encyclopaedia articles, which looks ugly and not very useful. If a hotel or venue is worth listing, we list it here ourselves. K7L (talk) 01:34, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Need for "connection" and "event" item types in Wikivoyage + semantic wikivoyage[edit]

For Wikivoyage in general I totally recommend using new items:

  1. Connection describes the two locations and the properties of the connection. Makes sense to link 2x instructions on "get to the port/station" and "get from the port/station but write these only once and maintain the master link at Municipality#Getting to and from the bus/train station Can be natural connection i.e. border crossing to neighboring entity via road or highway in car or man made: airplane, ferry, train, bus etc.
  2. Event describes a thing to do with a start timedate and end timedate plus the rest of {{do}}, {{eat}} and {{buy}} have. Then when added Semantic database consisting among other thigns of subject-predicate-object w:Triplestore would be possible to compile calendars like
  • "Get all me events sorted chronologically form this and all neighboring entities (and optionally also their neighbours) for some timeframe."
  • "Find me all the events in places east of 24° 00,0’E that are in Finland and have a guest marina."
  • "Make me a calendar of events in Finland where type=Film festival."
  • etc.etc.

Read more:

ps. Coming up is a post on description of transport networks as directed graph networks derived from sets of semantic descriptions. Instead of mentioning a permutation of times "there is bus/train/air/sea/road link to Y" in X and likewise. You just define possible nodes in (navigator that is road intersections) and make a linked list which is then incorporated into the directed graph network representation. Jukeboksi (talk) 10:12, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

I am a bit sceptical about the Connection type of item. (Although I'm not quite sure I understand correctly what you describe) This presumes that the information on both article is identical, but this is not always the case. For instance let's say we have a connection between a big city Paris#By_train and a small city Rennes. In the Paris article, there are so many connection, that it would be bothersome to have details to all of them, it would make the section very long and hard to navigate. On the Rennes article however you would have more space and it would make sense to put in things like travel time, ticket prices etc. Drat70 (talk) 00:55, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
To show how to get from A to B in article B, which I think you are trying to address with the connect idea, then consider the {{Routebox}} template which is near the bottom of many pages. Can show not just roads but also bus, train and ship routes. Advantage is that in one line it show next and previous destination and first and last destination on a route, which is more useful than just A to B. As for {{event}}, the template already exists. At the moment only a couple of hundred pages use this, would be great if you could expand its uses. My intention was that once widely used we could investigate how to make a database from the content and create calendar and search tools. If you know some good ways to achieve that please set up some test pages. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:11, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
I've been trying to match Wikidata properties to fields in the most common Wikivoyage templates. I don't see a good {{routebox}} equivalent there; d:P197 lists the "next station" on a rail line, but that's not necessarily the next city or next Wikivoyage destination - often, it returns a suburban commuter train station in the same city. For roads, the choices are even more limited; d:P1302 is just a list of cities in no particular order or position. Most of our local events are in {{do}} listings, often as an ===Events=== subsection of ==Do==. The {{event}} template only differs from other {{listing}} types by specifying event dates - the rest of the fields are the same as any other activity listing. You may want to look at d:Wikidata:Wikivoyage/Resources and the discussions currently open on d:Wikidata:Property proposal/Sister projects‎ as the task of fitting the existing (at best, partially-structured) Wikivoyage template data into any sort of semantic data structure still poses a few obstacles - {{quickbar}} and its counterparts in other languages are fairly straightforward (except for the bits on language and religion) but the hours and prices in {{listing}} are proving awkward and a structured approach has not yet been decided. K7L (talk) 16:24, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Template:User en-5 of babel combinations missing[edit]

Seems [[Template:User en-5]] is missing of the [[Template:Babel]] combinations. Somebody forget to import it form the 'pedia? Jukeboksi (talk) 23:11, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

We don't use -5 babel templates. You can see the full list at Wikivoyage:Babel. We already have six levels for each language (0-4, plus native); is that not enough? Powers (talk) 00:03, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. Template:User en-4 works. Jukeboksi (talk) 00:10, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Can we please address our "bodies of water" policy one way or the other?[edit]

I know I am kind of droning on about this and it may even be getting on the nerves of some editors, but please have a look at this issue that is still not resolved (there is a dormant vfd on one of the involved parts). I really do not care either way how this is resolved, I would even be fine with the policy being gutted entirely and both articles being kept, but the current situation is confusing, illogical and just too complicated for anybody to understand. I would really like to hear your opinions what we should do. The status quo is - in my humble opinion - not sustainable. It will by no means break the wiki, but it does not help her. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:48, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

There is the Wikivoyage:Cruising Expedition. I do not know how relevant that is for the Bodensee dilemma. The project page is dormant, but there is some development e.g. through Cruising on small craft, Sailing in Finland and Archipelago Sea. Information on cruising on small (and large) craft can be and is included in many destination articles (Get in and Get around By boat) and travel topics about bodies of water are allowed. If we get enough momentum to attract boaters, we probably need a change in policy. How to change it is unclear until we get some best practices. For now, having the bodies of water described as (extra)regions, travel topics and itineraries is no real problem, I think, as long as this route is clearly pointed out to newcomers. --LPfi (talk) 12:09, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Quy Nhon, Vietnam: Star Nomination[edit]

I'd like to nominate the article Quy Nhon for a star. I think it's an amazing article. Fun, lively, and very, very informative. It exceeds all the star criteria and compares very favorably to star articles we've read and used.

It has two wonderfully-detailed maps, both of which are better than anything on the internet (it's crazy, but as the article itself says, all the other maps are just wrong, including Google maps). The prose is effective and enjoyable (trust me, it hooked us into driving hundreds of miles out of our way to visit; now THAT's effectiveness!). The prose is effective, well-written and easy to read, and the grammar seems very good to me. The photos are informative and quite beautiful.

Having just visited the city, I can confirm that the listings are spot-on. And the history section gives context which is unavailable elsewhere; it's the best and only good source on the internet about Quy Nhon's history.

I posted more on the Quy Nhon talk page and the star nomination page. I also put a nomination on the article's banner. Please tell me if I should do anything else. Thank you. Linda Beth 123 (talk) 03:24, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Nice article indeed. How about adding latitude/longitude to all listings? Cheers! Syced (talk) 11:58, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
Also, the two banners have low definition. You can see that the picture has been scaled up. Syced (talk) 12:05, 9 May 2016 (UTC)


Dear all,

I will be arriving by plane to Frankfurt on May 19 and I plan to make a one-day trip to Erfurt on that occasion. Since I wouldn't want to lose time by getting first to my Frankfurt hotel to leave my luggage and then return to the Train Station, my question is the following: is there any luggage storage at the Frankfurt Airport Train Station? Or at the Erfurt Train Station? Or where can I leave my luggage in safety for a few hours, other than the hotel? Thank you in advance,


Please ask questions like this on Wikivoyage:Tourist office.
The Airport train station doesn't appear to have left luggage, but Erfurt sation has lockers (Schließfächer). You may need coins to use a locker. AlasdairW (talk) 14:02, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
In all cases I know of, train stations in Germany have lockers that can only be accessed by paying coins, if they have lockers at all. At any rate, unless you have booked your ticket (s) already, rail and fly might diminish your time at Frankfurt airport station, as it includes a flexible ticket and ICE should be running along that route at least once an hour. Have a nice and safe trip. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:59, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

There are luggage storage drop off places in Frankfurt Airport. --Traveler100 (talk) 19:33, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Fort McMurray[edit]

Super 8, Fort McMurray

Our page on Fort McMurray is suddenly getting 100-150 page views daily, up from almost nothing, due to the current wildfire situation. At some point we're going to need to determine which of these places are still standing, but at the moment that's a moving target. K7L (talk) 13:00, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Back down to about 10 per day, which is more than before the fires but not much. Powers (talk) 01:12, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Link for cities: official city site or tourist office site?[edit]

For Japan pages, most of/all the links for the cities (at the beginning at the article, after the name of the city) point to the official (and general purpose) website for the city. Wouldn't it better to have the link to the official tourism site instead (when there is one)? I wonder if it has been done on purpose or by default. In French Wikivoyage we put both (the information is in an infobox of the top-right of the page). Edit: note that this solution is not perfect: sometimes there are two tourism websites (for example the tourism site of the city, and the site of the tourism association) — Fabimaru (talk) 10:02, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

The tourism site, if such exists. If there is no tourism site at all, the "normal" city website can be added instead of it, if it contains at least something that may be of interest to travelers (e.g. information about public buses, location of tourist office). In the case that the normal city website is completely useless for non-locals, then the region or the country perhaps has a visitor's website with a section about the destination.
If there are two websites, the tourism site of the city should go to the top of the page. Then add a subsection called "Tourist office" in Understand, put a listing there with the tourist office's/tourism association's contact information including their website. ϒpsilon (talk) 10:27, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
Thanks a lot, this policy makes sense for me. I wondered if there was some insinuation (like not putting the tourism site because it would mean pointing on an "external guide"). Note for Japan pages contributors: you may want to have a look a the French pages for the tourism sites guides, I put them for a good number of pages (most major cities). — Fabimaru (talk) 10:55, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Wikidata item - correction needed[edit]

Wikidata item for Sagar India is incorrect - Wikidata Entry ID should be Q1006355 -- not Q502675 which is for Krauschwitz in Germany... (Is there a better place to post this? Was not able to correct the 2 Wikidata records - thanks!) Matroc (talk) 01:43, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

I deleted the entry for Krauschwitz and added an entry for Sagar, so it should be fixed now. -- Ryan • (talk) • 02:33, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
Thank you! -- Matroc (talk) 03:11, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Da russkies stole Crimea[edit] is a direct rip-off of our Crimea article.

There is one revision (12:06, 21 мая 2014‎) in ?action=history and no proper attribution. (The corresponding edit here is 09:06 UTC, 21 May 2014‎.) They've basically posted an entire database dump, without the revision history. No mention of CC-BY-SA, no edit history other than the one last revision as of whenever they plagiarised this.

Their "privacy" link points to Wikimedia's privacy policy and the "disclaimer" points to (a redlink, they treat the Wikivoyage: prefix as an interwiki link instead of project space?).

Are we keeping track of these or protesting to the United Nations or something? Russia shouldn't be able to just march in and steal Crimea from us.

I know WP had a "Wikipedia:Forks and mirrors" that was tracking this sort of stuff, do we? K7L (talk) 14:06, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Wikivoyage:List of content re-users and info at Wikivoyage:Non-compliant redistribution. Nurg (talk) 09:46, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. It looks like the list is buried on the talk page, Wikivoyage talk:Non-compliant redistribution, for some reason? K7L (talk) 13:47, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Looking at stuff like this they seem to have just copied WV content at some past point in time and not followed our updates since. There seems to be no attribution in any place and as I don't speak Russian I cannot communicate with whoever is behind this site... If they did point back to us, they'd do no harm, right? Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:16, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

As long as the pointers were systematic -- that is, on every article, pointing directly to our article or article history. Powers (talk) 01:14, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Link decay for foreign-language website versions[edit]

Many museums and other venues have official web sites, with a foreign-language version on a more apocryphic URL. The foreign-language URL tend to move around a lot. For example, the Swedish Natural History Museum has the brief domain with an English version which moved from to causing a dead link in the Stockholm/Östermalm article. Should we make the pages more sustainable by including the general domain name instead, when it has a direct link to the English version? /Yvwv (talk) 16:33, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

This issue is addressed to some extent at Wikivoyage:External links#Languages and also the "short readable link" section on that page. As the policy page describes, it's somewhat of a judgement call as to what link to choose since it's preferable to link to English language pages, but also preferable not to link to a URL that's likely to change often. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:45, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
I doubt we can avoid all of the link rot. Hotel chains are prone to URLs like for individual locations. We presumably want to link directly the individual property, not Big Hotel Chain's corporate brand home page. If that breaks the link the next time the franchisor redesigns their site, so be it; often the franchise site is the only web presence so we have to use it. K7L (talk) 17:12, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
On a related note, I don't think we should link to individual lines or connections. At all. Like for example trying to like to departures for a train from Berlin to Hamburg. Or for a specific subway line in Berlin. Those tend to be humongous links as well and also subject to frequent change. Named trains with their own official pages are of course a different story, but I have seen some strange links that are very prone to rot in articles on some German cities... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:32, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Northern Vietnam thread[edit]

An article on Ha Giang Province in northeastern Vietnam has been created and is being developed, but no-one has explained why Northern Vietnam should be subdivided into subregions for the convenience of travelers, or if so, which ones and how many. Nor are there any links from the Ha Giang article to articles for "Cities" or "Other destinations" in the province. Please look at the thread on Talk:Northern Vietnam and see if you can help us make organizational sense out of this all. Everyone should appreciate the initiative that was taken to plunge forward and create the Ha Giang article, and now we need to figure out how best to use the article and/or the information in it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:33, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

This mess still isn't close to resolution. Would someone please help? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:24, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Cross wiki notifications will be released by default on May 12 at 23:00 UTC.[edit]


Cross wiki notifications will be released by default on all wikis on May 12 at 23:00 UTC

During the beta phase, the cross-wiki notifications feature was enabled by over 18,000 accounts across more than 360 wikis. We receive great feedback from a lot of very happy users. After that 3-months long beta period during which we made adjustments and that feature is now ready for a release by default.

Users who don't want to receive cross-wiki notifications will be able to turn them off on their preferences on each wiki. If you haven't activated Cross-wiki Notifications during the Beta phase, you may receive old unread notifications from other wikis.

More information is available on the documentation. The talk page is still open for any questions or feedback, in any language.

All the best, Trizek (WMF) (talk) 16:50, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Statistics for most read articles?[edit]

Are there statistics for how often different articles are read? And which articles are the most read during a period? /Yvwv (talk) 13:36, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

I vaguely remember having looked at such statistics somewhere two years ago or so, so I googled "wikivoyage statistics". [1] seems to have statistics for WMF projects including Wikivoyage, however they seem to have some problem there right now. Nothing loads, including the Wikivoyage stats page. ϒpsilon (talk) 14:56, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
We used to discuss (official?) statistics in unregular intervals, but they have always produced questionable results if you ask me... Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:11, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
Pageviews at, eg, Nurg (talk) 10:44, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Wikidata again[edit]

Working with Wikidata is an idea that's been kicked around since 2013, but never quite caught on. So far, it's used widely for pagebanners and interwiki links, but not much else. Retrieving info for individual {{listing}}s or {{quickbar}} fields has been proposed but not implemented; a couple of languages (de, fr) provide a d= or wikidata= field in their listings (which might display a clickable link) but don't seem to use it to run database lookups.

Pity. Ultimately, the idea was that Wikidata could be used to look up listing fields (lat, long, name, address, image...) by some automated means (maybe a 'bot script or a listing editor function; they also might be of use on dynamic maps).

I've made an attempt to update the list at d:Wikidata:Wikivoyage/Resources#Properties for listings to match Wikidata properties to individual {{listing}} fields in various languages. (Some have extra fields we don't use here, like star ratings 'estrellas' in Spanish or wi-fi availability in French. I haven't looked at any of the languages with non-Western character sets. Certainly, now that these are templates instead of WT-style tags, new fields are popping up in many individual-language editions and they don't always match across languages.)

Many of the most common fields already have a corresponding Wikidata property. The rest have been proposed for creation and are stranded at various points in the process. Our hotel/motel/B&B checkin/checkout times are stranded at d:Wikidata:Property proposal/Pending#Awaiting time type with precision second, seemingly for want of a Wikidata data type for a standalone "time of day" with no date attached. Many of the other fields (hours, pricerange...) are languishing at d:Wikidata:Property_proposal/Sister projects#Wikivoyage either for lack of examples or because someone wants to force a structure on an item where the underlying data is widely variable (such as hours= which are different every day of the week, vary seasonally and are different for different pieces of the same establishment (hotel with restaurant and bar might keep pouring drinks long after the kitchen closes for the night).

These need feedback while they're still open for discussion. Could you look at d:Wikidata:Property proposal/Sister projects#Wikivoyage and d:Wikidata:Property proposal/Pending to comment or add any information that's missing from the proposals? K7L (talk) 20:10, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Migrating quickbars to Wikidata doesn't seem to be that complicated. One of the reasons for the lack of progress is the out-dated Module:Wikibase. I think we should import w:Module:Wikidata and all its dependencies. Does anybody have experiences with mass-importing lua modules? -- T.seppelt (talk) 20:32, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
Some notes:
wikidata= as a field in Template listing - already exists
The interworkings of a Lua Module either standalone or with templates etc. can be very tricky - Lua Modules generally get processed after a page has been processed... In many cases it is necessary to use "safesubst:" which forces the Lua Module to do its work and finalize results before the page gets processed. (The #invoke for the Module essentially no longer exists - just the results)
It is generally possible to build initial template codes we all know and love which in turn would require being edited further by hand.
Lua Modules have been used to create "geo" templates - retrieving lat/long coordinates etc.
Agree that Lua Modules have not been used or implemented in wikivoyage to a great extent.
Wikidata itself is incomplete and its properties wanting -- ie. description property for an article in Wikidata for example is "a city" - hardly enough for a listing or quick box - Larger content descriptions for listings would not exist - many properties one might desire for a quickbox are also missing such as electricity.
Who (bot?) is going to find and add the Wikidata identifier (Qnnn) for each listing's "wikidata=" field.
Lua Modules do have machine processing limits - something else be aware of.
Though many things could probably be accomplished with Lua Modules and Wikidata, I would suggest achieving one goal at a time. Matroc (talk) 17:01, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
The list of Wikidata fields to match the most common WV templates (listing, marker, quickbar, fr:Info Ville, Info Parc, Info Region, geo and mapframe) is d:Wikidata:Wikivoyage/Resources#Properties for listings. Many already exist; fr:'s version of quickbar (Info Pays) already defaults a few fields to the Wikidata record if they're not specified locally. Electricity (as a quickbar field) is missing but has been proposed at d:Wikidata:Property proposal/Sister projects#Wikivoyage, along with many of the other "missing" fields. That still leaves the issue of how to populate all of these fields, if and when they're created; "hours" and "price" are likely to be the problem children as they're currently unstructured free-form text which won't translate easily. Much of the information currently in Wikidata was copied there by 'bots, usually harvesting it from template fields in the corresponding Wikipedia article's info box. Certainly {{listing}} is going to be more difficult, largely because d:wikidata:arbitrary access is "expensive" in server time and much data in our existing listings is in plain-text fields which would need to be translated before they could be re-used elsewhere. It might be possible to add the Wikidata item with some sort of automated script if there's a unique identifier which could be used to match the entries; for instance, a local telephone number matches a number in a listing in the same city in some other-language Wikivoyage, which has wikipedia= linked from its listings, and from that language's WP we can find a d:Q##### record. Not easy, and most of our listings simply don't have (and won't have) Wikidata entries unless and until they get enough notability to get an article in at least one Wikimedia project (likely the WP for that country's home language). That makes using this for quickbars much easier than getting the listings. Then again, many of the same arguments could have been made to state that getting (lat, long) co-ordinates into individual listings is a mammoth task and we're nowhere near having a locator map for every destination. Indeed, but one must start somewhere. K7L (talk) 15:46, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
I'm working on a Wikidata lookup that could be integrated into the listing editor that would work the same as the search typeahead (type a few letters, suggested results show up). As you've noted there is concern about having too many Wikidata items in use on a page as improper usage could result in excessive lookups and parsing, but I would expect lookup performance to improve as Wikidata is more widely used, and we could do some basic testing to see if something like lat/long lookups using {{#property:P625|from=Q3699364}} was currently feasible. -- Ryan • (talk) • 17:07, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
Wonderful! Really looking forward to that Wikidata lookup field in the listing editor :-) Syced (talk) 07:21, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Maps with extra layers on en-Wikivoyage[edit]

Thanks to the amazing work by JGirault (WMF) (talk, contribs), the new <mapframe> and <maplink> maps on English Wikivoyage now support external layers and all other wikivoyage article links just like the wmflabs-based maps! I saw some cool maps experiments done by Matroc (talk, contribs) on their page, and copied a portion of it above. I will now try to adapt current community's templates (without modifying the originals just yet), so that the {{see}} and others can be used directly with the new map. As always, feedback is highly welcome. --Yurik (talk) 19:25, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

CC from previous relevant conversations: AlasdairW, Andrewssi2, Atsirlin, FredTC, Ibaman, JamesA, JuliasTravels, Matroc, MaxSem, Mey2008, Pnorman, Seav, Shaundd, Syced, TheDJ, TheTrolleyPole, Torty3, WhatamIdoing, Wrh2.
Thank you! Yurik - Adding the external layers has made that map look 100% better... - It is also very nice to allow multiple maps on an article page (definitely something various users wanted) - The hard part will be to adapt current templates to go probably through some POI script. - Some of the maps on my home page were created using a Lua Module and data from Wikidata, saved and then edited... I am sure there is more to come that will make life easier and cause little code confusion - again, Thank you for these milestones and your hard work. -- Matroc (talk) 22:39, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

P.S. Take a look at the first migration attempt. I only changed the underlying templates, and left the page same as original. Some minor styling is still required, plus at some point I hope it will be possible to add an item from Wikidata. Feel free to modify it if needed. --Yurik (talk) 06:24, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Some remarks:
  • There seem to be two full screen buttons (one top-right and one below the +/- buttons).
  • The layers-button shows "Mapquest open" and just "MapQuest". This last one displays nothing (when zoomed in).
  • When using the top-right "Full screen" button, the map is displayed full screen. However there is no indication about how to leave the full screen mode.
The close button is behind the layers button - just the edge of it shows for now -- Matroc (talk) 16:07, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
--FredTC (talk) 12:09, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
FredTC, we just need to fix the popup text. The button shows nearby wikivoyage articles. --Yurik (talk) 19:21, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
Yurik, it's awesome. What is the source for Mapnik and Mapquest? --Alexander (talk) 14:32, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
Alexander, those layers are exactly the same functionality as exists at the moment at Wikivoyage, so it was simply copied from the wmflabs that was created by the community. This data is not under WMF control, and moreover, users have to agree to expose their browsing activity to the 3rd party. --Yurik (talk) 19:21, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
Very interesting. Can this display type-specific Aiga restaurant.svg or Aiga bar.svg map symbols for points of interest, like our current fork-plate-knife for eateries, martini glass for drink and house for lodging? Do we have control over what's displayed in the pop-up bubble when the POI's are clicked, perhaps using a template? If a {{listing}} has a corresponding Wikidata item, can clicking the POI marker trigger a lookup to display information extracted from the item? K7L (talk) 15:04, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
Yuri can correct me on this, but I believe that the default icon set we have available at the moment is the public domain licensed Maki icon set made by Mapbox. As for pop-up content, templates can be included (see my goofy mockup), but I'm not sure on the Wikidata part. Yurik! :) CKoerner (WMF) (talk) 18:57, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
At the moment we can only show pushpins with any of the maki icons as Chris mentioned above, in 3 different sizes and any color. Eventually I hope we will be able to show other marker symbols, but sadly for the moment that's the limitation. --Yurik (talk) 19:21, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
The button called "Show in full screen" actually is a button that shows all POIs, I guess the button's name should be changed to "Show all listings" or something similar? Thanks a lot :-) Syced (talk) 06:36, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
Syced, It does not show all POIs, it shows all Wikivoyage articles. I think we should hide all other layers when the user clicks that button to reduce confusion. --Yurik (talk) 19:21, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

We have fixed a number of internal bugs, and I think it is ready for the roll out. Are there any objections if I switch the marker & map templates to show it like on my test page? (Note that the color of the links does not match the one on the map for the next 12 hours, after which it will be identical). The new map will allow far greater customization by the community, and will allow us to progress further. Obviously I will be listening to any feedback and suggestions. Thanks! :) --Yurik (talk) 02:08, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
I say go ahead. Switching to a new framework with greater support and flexibility should be a win for everyone. -- Ryan • (talk) • 02:27, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
Yes Done

New map functionality[edit]

Help expand and translate Kartographer help page

  1. Templates like {{see}} and {{eat}} add items to their own separate groups
  2. {{mapmask}} adds data to the "mask" group
  3. Both >maplink< and >mapframe< can be configured to show just selected groups
  4. Each maps on the same page can be configured to show different group(s)
  5. By default, the {{mapframe}} shows these groups: mask, around, buy, city, do, drink, eat, go, listing, other, see, sleep, vicinity, view (in that order)
  6. Setting text="" for <maplink> does not show the link, but still adds link's data to the specified group (this is what's used by mapmask template)
  7. maplink - if you use text="" or text="Click me!" and marker-symbol is -number-xxx you will get back-ground color (marker-color) a small colored space or the text with that back-ground color.
  8. if no text parameter is entered and marker-symbol is -number-xxx then you would get numbered box with back-ground color. (you can use the <sup> before the maplink and </sup> as well is you wish for a different appearance..
  9. maplinks of the same group will appear when you select "Click me!" and not just the single entry. This is one way to have multiple locations shown on a single map when selected that might not be otherwise shown on a visible map or a grouping of significant or special grouping.
  10. if text="" is entered and marker-symbol is not -number-xxx then geographical coordinates will appear as link.
  11. maplink - if you use marker-symbol such as -number-see (used for common listings see,sleep,go etc.) - it will offset all the numbers displayed in those visible listings on a page that use that same group counter. (Be careful)
  12. maplink - if you use a maplink containing the same coordinates and also a member of a common group (or same group ie. see) - it will overlay the symbol on top of the normally numbered one such as created by a listing. (depends on order of listing or maplink entry)
  13. using <mapframe> and <maplink> - if you want a different symbol on a distinct map then that is also possible using maplink. This can be done by using such symbols as a bed for sleep or knife,fork and spoon for eat and a suitcase for next instead of numbers. The basic trick is to keep track of the group name (I prefer a disctinct group name) you want to display on a map and keeping those groups distinct from the normal ones.
  14. maplink - one advantage to using the maplink description is being able to add an image, adding more descriptive text, shutting off the link to commons and use of alt field. - another is to be able to add something to a map that is not normally found in listings. This added information allows for a slightly different, informative and useful map.
  15. maplink - these can be separate by themselves or the same effect can be by using a number of features within a single mapframe.
  16. I have tested several of the items discussed above HERE decided to pass this on. To create all maplinks that are not seen on that page, I ran the page through a module test function looking at listings and created the maplinks. I also did some minor editorial work.
  17. Avoid using double quote marks (") for description etc. as this will result in a JSON error in maplink -- Matroc (talk) 21:30, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
    @Matroc: double quotes work just fine with geojson, but they do require escaping. The module:Map does that automatically. --Yurik (talk) 03:20, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
    @Yurik: - But it appears not to be the case if you use <maplink> directly - Kartographer extension -- Matroc (talk) 04:01, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
    @Matroc: try escaping the double quote, like here: 37°48′5″N 122°23′56″W
    . --Yurik (talk) 05:07, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
    @Yurik: Tested \" comes out fine in <maplink> description - was just reading up on the escaped characters that JSON uses: \",\b,\f,\\ etc. - Thanks! -- Matroc (talk) 05:36, 12 June 2016 (UTC) - ps Thanks for closing the ticket!
  18. At this time Mapbox icons are available marker symbols and Maki icons have not replaced Mapbox icons yet for <mapframe> & <maplink> - Matroc (talk) 22:02, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
    I presume you mean that Mapbox has released additional maki icons, and the new ones have not yet been made available? --Yurik (talk) 03:20, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
    @Yurik: - I believe that is correct! -- Matroc (talk) 04:01, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
  19. If you use <maplink> with a description but no image - the text will come out in an ugly narrow width grayed out area... to overcome this use a blank image with a height of 1 px before the description -- Matroc (talk) 00:28, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
    @Matroc: Please file this as a bug, with the extact geojson or template invocation showing how to produce it. Also, please check if it works if you also set the geojson's "title" value. --Yurik (talk) 03:20, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
    @Yurik: - Can ignore for now -- appears to have cleared up so no ticket needed! -- Matroc (talk) 04:15, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
  20. Be careful, test and enjoy! There should at some point be a good discussion as to when to use <mapframe>, {{mapframe}}, <maplink> and {{marker}} -- Yours Matroc (talk) 04:17, 10 June 2016 (UTC) --Yurik (talk) 13:18, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
    • @Matroc: I am a bit worried about too much magic in the params. I think we should change it to a bit more direct and straightforward way, especially with when things get autostyled (colored), hidden, etc. A better design is welcome :) --Yurik (talk) 05:47, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
      @Yurik: I agree and that is why I thought that we should all discuss and maybe come up with a possible set of polices for wikivoyage - (develop Help pages, dos and donts, and how to keep this as simple as possible for all editors/users). -- Matroc (talk) 06:29, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  21. {{geo}} was migrated phab:T137364 --Yurik (talk) 00:42, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
    • undone until more bugs and regressions in functionality have been addressed. --Traveler100 (talk) 12:43, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
  22. {{PoiMap2detail}} was migrated phab:T137656 --Yurik (talk) 00:42, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
    • undone until gpx is fixed as this is mainly used in itineraries. --Traveler100 (talk) 12:43, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
  23. {{PoiMap2}} is now obsolete, and should not be used. {{PoiMap2raw}} is used instead in a few places, but even that should be fixed. --Yurik (talk) 01:23, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
  • ... (add your own above)

Bugs and comments about the new maps[edit]

New maps have been enabled on en-wikivoyage. Please add your comments here, or create Phabricator tickets. All layers code is at MediaWiki:Kartographer.js, so either experiment there or do pull requests at GitHub. Once the code is more stable, I will move it into a proper MW extension, so that it can be localized and shared for all other languages (please don't copy it to other langs just yet).


  • Yes Done {{mapmask}} does not seem to be implemented for the new maps - see Culver City for an example of an article that should include a mask. Is there another way to implement this functionality with the new maps? -- Ryan • (talk) • 21:35, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
  • check out the new and greatly improved {{Mapmask}}. Some documentation help is needed. --Yurik (talk) 03:40, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
    • Thanks! -- Ryan • (talk) • 04:09, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes Done I'm not sure if this is temporary or not, but Kern County no longers shows any markers on the map. -- Ryan • (talk) • 21:35, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
  • A new version of Kartographer was deployed today, and we forgot to add a config flag. Thanks for the heads up, it is now fixed. --Yurik (talk) 23:21, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes Done When editing Helsinki/South about an hour ago, I was wondering why someone has put a superfluous sleep price range box above the dynamic map. It doesn't show up anywhere in the article's wikicode either. Then I noticed the same thing in all other Helsinki district articles. And in every article with a mapframe from Nashville to Nuclear tourism. Perhaps it has something to do with the new map?
  • Sorry, must have accidentally copy/pasted an extra line from somewhere. It was already reverted (thanks @Doubleplusjeff:) --Yurik (talk) 15:32, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes Done Also, the mapmask doesn't seem to work any longer. ϒpsilon (talk) 06:58, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Technically the mapmask is incorrect because the last point has to be the same as first (at least according to my reading of the geojson spec). But it seems to work ok without it, so i removed the validation. --Yurik (talk) 15:17, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes Done Would you also consider adding a parameter to {{mapframe}} so that user can select which group(s) ie. |groups=go,sleep,do| go on a map as well? otherwise use default list? -- Matroc (talk) 16:19, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
I'm not sure if it's necessary to be able to switch on/off different types of labels individually. In the former version of the dynamic map it was possible to either see all POIs or no POIs and I didn't find it problematic. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:44, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • @Matroc: the parameter is already there - show=... Please help with updating the docs. --Yurik (talk) 02:07, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
  • @Yurik: - I tested {{mapframe}} with parameter "show=see,do,city" and the result was only those 3 groups will show on a map and in layers dropdown - if you do not have a "show=" parameter in {{mapframe}} then the default list appears -- will leave a note in Template : mapframe talk page for this to be added when things quiet down a bit??? (nice to be aware of) -- Matroc (talk) 04:38, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes Done 169 pages with script errors - Lua error in Module:Map at line 89: Polygon's first and last points must be the same. (coordinates issue) -- Matroc (talk) 15:22, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • I suspect this was due to most mapmasks having non-standard coordinates. See my answer above. I removed the verification, so all of them should be gone. --Yurik (talk) 15:38, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • P.S. There were tons of bad markers with trailing commas. I fixed them. --Yurik (talk) 02:07, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes Done Some of the problems noted above can be resolved using <mapframe> and <maplink> directly. I see the process and issues of trying to pack (program) the functionality of these 2 into existing templates (which is probably preferable) than having to learn the Kartographer extension outright. -- Matroc (talk) 17:14, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Agree, that's what i have been doing. Thanks for the note. --Yurik (talk) 02:07, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes Done Itineraries are no longer numbered correctly. Previously a route would list POI in sequential numbers irrespective of type of listing. It now creates number sequences for each listing type. See for example Rheinsteig and Wales Coast Path. Not as easy to read. --Traveler100 (talk) 12:30, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Thanks, should be relatively easy to fix with an extra param to use the same numbering group. I will have to think how to change the templates for that. --Yurik (talk) 15:47, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
    • Might also consider adding color as an extra param as well. -- Matroc (talk) 16:19, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
      • I see you have added a counter parameter to listings. This is not going to work. I add a new listing in the middle of a route with 100 POIs, how many editors are going to manually edit all the existing listing to keep it sequential. This experiment that has been made active before fully testing has broken the listing numbering system of itineraries. --Traveler100 (talk) 14:18, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
        • Traveler100, you misunderstood the meaning of the word "counter". This is the "name" of the counter, not the "value". The new maps can do counting just fine on its own, but they need to know WHICH counter variable to use. So you can have multiple counters on a page. As long as all the items (see, go, listing, etc) have the same counter parameter, they will share the same sequence. In short, take a look at Rheinsteig. Itineraries are now done. --Yurik (talk) 14:47, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
          • Ok my misunderstanding, looks good, thanks. --Traveler100 (talk) 21:38, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes Done A minor question (not a priority and may not be applicable for us) - listings and markers in general are numbered on an article page and show as such on a map .... in the future, will we also have the capability of outputing a letter (A-Z) (similar to using -letter in Kartographer. -- Matroc (talk) 01:35, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Matroc, You already have that capability, exactly as you described -- with "-letter" or "-letter-<countername>" (same as with -number). Also, you can always just set it to the value you want, e.g. "x", or any number, e.g. "42". --Yurik (talk) 02:10, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes, this is possible using <mapframe> or <maplink> directly -- what I was trying to ask: "Is there to be a parameter in {{listing}} (see,do,sleep,eat etc.) templates to accomplish this?" (perhaps a parameter "countertype=" with values of 'number' or 'letter' ).... Thanks! Matroc (talk) 03:17, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
From Buffalo/West Side. This is not 300x650px!
From Historic Churches of Buffalo's East Side. What's the deal with the dead space on the left?
  • Yes Done mapframe had broken width/height. Original reports:
  • Trans-Siberian Railway#Go. In addition to what has been mentioned above, the whole map is split in half, both the GPX tracks and POIs are gone on the map, and the originally red markers in the text are now pink. ϒpsilon (talk) 12:49, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • The split map seems to be a problem related to the width/height parameters: the box around the map uses them, but the map in the box ignores them. This is also problematic when the width is so small that the control buttons on the left side get hidden: {{Mapframe|59.32502|18.07083|zoom=14|height=370|width=320|layer=|staticmap=|align=|name=}} Xsobev (talk) 14:43, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • @Ypsilon:, @Xsobev: I will look at width/height. The labels are missing because they have type=color, e.g. type=blue, and do not fall into one of the predefined groups: mask,around,buy,city,do,drink,eat,go,listing,other,see,sleep,vicinity,view. We could reduce the number of groups to make it easier to show in the layers picker, and simply add all others to "other" group. Would that work? Which groups do you think should stay? --Yurik (talk) 15:45, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • @Yurik: I can confirm that width parameter of mapframe now works. Thanks a lot for fixing this. Xsobev (talk) 13:47, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Pinging Yurik. I'm not sure if this issue has already been brought up, but it looks like there are some bugs when it comes to mapframes with custom dimensions. See screenshots at right. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:29, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
  • AndreCarrotflower This seems to be an issue with the {{mapframe}}, not the Kartographer. Seems like the width/height are not being passed to Kartographer. Investingating... --Yurik (talk) 02:21, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes Done Map images (photos) are no longer displayed when one clicks on an icon. –StellarD (talk) 17:56, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • @StellarD: could you give a link to a page with the problem? Thanks --20:31, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Valencia has many map images, none of them now visible, even though they are still shown in the listing editor. –StellarD (talk) 20:46, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • @StellarD:@Traveler100: image support is done, please verify they are the right size. The "description" field could be any wiki markup. --Yurik (talk) 03:52, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
  • @Yurik: Out of several dozen map images for Valencia, three only now appear: those for the bus station and the two train stations. The map image for Estació de València Nord is the correct size; the other two are too large. –StellarD (talk) 09:03, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Correction: when one clicks on the map icon in the upper right and opens the map in a new tab, the map images do appear and are the correct size. When clicking on the icons within the mapframe on the article page, the map images do not appear (except for the three mentioned above, two of which are sized incorrectly). –StellarD (talk) 09:56, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
@Yurik:, I think it is not completely done yet. Most of the images have the right size, but the red marker #1 (train station) in Valencia displays a much smaller image (not 300px). I see the same problem in other articles, where some images are smaller and some are bigger. Why? --Alexander (talk) 20:35, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes Done layers - different layers should be lined up on the left - now they are ragged left ... Matroc (talk) 03:03, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes Done layers - scrollbar not working - or present ... -- Matroc (talk) 03:03, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes Done groups - in layers - is there a way not to have a select box for a group if that group does not have any any markers on the map? -- Matroc (talk) 03:31, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes Done multiple {{mapframe}}s are now allowed on the same page. --Yurik (talk) 15:37, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
  • @Yurik: - that is great! -- now can create extra maps with using the show parameter for different sections etc. -- Matroc (talk) 00:28, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes Done Yurik, and one more thing, which is really strange. Mapframe behaves in a very weird way when placed inside a div environment. Check here, Открыть карту. Same bug happens when I remove the wrap/unwrap part but keep any kind of div around the mapframe command. --Alexander (talk) 20:22, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Tracked in phab:T137815
  • Was seeing similar issue as I had a mapframe etc. within a collapsible div... Evidently some change has occurred fixing the issue - perhaps a .css or javascript refresh was added after the map is opened to insure height and width etc... I tried Atsirlin's Открыть карту (open map) and I could see it working - it also seems to do a (slight pause) refresh - just a passing note -- Matroc (talk) 00:59, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Merged and already live. JGirault (WMF) (talk) 22:29, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

GPX discussion[edit]

  • Could you explain what these template do? I am a bit confused. Or point to a doc. Thanks! --Yurik (talk) 03:40, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
    • @Yurik: The template is used to add a boundary or track to a map. There is some documentation of the process at Wikivoyage:How to use dynamic maps#Adding boundaries and tracks. -- Ryan • (talk) • 04:09, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
      • @Wrh2:, I played with them a bit. I seriously doubt that we would want to invest into full GPX support at this point simply because I think it can be easily converted to GeoJson and hosted right here on the Wiki. See on the right. Yurik (talk) 04:59, 9 June 2016 (UTC) P.S. Btw, that GPX file contains an error it seems - it has 3 segments, but the first two only contain one point each, making it impossible to draw a line. I removed them. Also I used an online conversion tool and some simple regex to get this. Yurik (talk) 05:15, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
  • How do you switch on the GPX plot for the article? --Traveler100 (talk) 12:36, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
GPX routes no longer visible on the in page map style and option not available on the map you get when you click on a listing number icon. --Traveler100 (talk) 21:44, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • @Traveler100: Yes, GPX is broken at the moment. I could try to implement a GPX parser in Lua, but it might take considerable efforts, and I think it's a dead end technology - geojson has much more descriptive language for this data, so I think we should migrate to it (see an example above). --Yurik (talk) 02:07, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
So what is involved in migrating from GPX format. Not there are many tools to generate GPX and a number of web site offering such data. --Traveler100 (talk) 13:57, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
Traveler100, depends on how many there are. If English WV is the only wiki that uses them, I see there are about 20-30 of them, might not be worth writing an elaborate script (will take much longer, and can only be done by a developer, thus preventing that developer from doing something that community cannot do easily). I would suggest converting the data using this tool (make sure you select GPX in the dropdown), and copy/pasting the resulting geojson into one big wiki page somewhere, wrapping each geojson in <mapframe>. This way everyone can look at them easily, and move them to the needed artiles (or make templates out of them). Eventually I hope we will have a proper geojson storage on commons. --Yurik (talk) 14:59, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
P.S. Seems there are over 70 GPXs on enwiki alone, I will try to migrate myself. --Yurik (talk) 19:15, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Semi-done - all data has been converted, see User:Yurik/Sandbox/Gpx1 and User:Yurik/Sandbox/Gpx2. The task is tracked at phab:T137677. I suspect some of them were exported from OSM and stored as a page, which we shouldn't do - instead maps service should provide a way to export that data on the fly into the map that needs it. See phab:T134084 - a service to get an outline of a city, etc. --Yurik (talk) 01:01, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

General map questions[edit]

  • Yurik, I need your comment on a related issue: this set of coordinates is geojson, isn't it? How can I integrate it into the new mapframe technology? Note that same boundaries will be used on multiple pages, so we need a way to store the boundaries somewhere, not on the page itself, as {{mapmask}} is currently doing. I believe that this requires some tweaks of Module:Map, but I am unable to do this myself (and I have no idea what you had in mind when writing Module:Map in the way it is written). --Alexander (talk) 13:49, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Alexander, yes, they look like geojson coordinates, and in theory can easily added to the mapframe/maplink by simply doing a search/replace into a 59.4318956570169,24.736855030059814|59.43198295738759,24.737563133239746|... sequence (notice that lat/long order is reversed). Then the data can be used as {{mapframe|geotag=Polygon|data=values|59.43...}}. In the long run, my goal is to enable geojson storage on commons, similar to the (phab:T120452). Those pages will store raw geojson, and will be accessible from maps (or Lua) everywhere (i already have it working on my machine). I wouldn't want geojson to be stored as wiki markup - not stable, breaks in many ways, cannot be easily previewed, and many other issues. This Wednesday there will be an RFC discussion about the tabular data, but most of the technology is the same. --Yurik (talk) 18:13, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Styling <maplink>[edit]

  • The style of the squares with numbers in the text is different - is there a reason why this was changed? Thanks again for all your work. Xsobev (talk) 17:23, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
  • @Xsobev:, I thought our links in text were exactly the same style as before. What changes and on which pages do you see? Thanks! --Yurik (talk) 22:25, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
  • You can see the difference if you compare an older WV page on with any current page (the changes are not page-specific). The main difference I could see is the grey border and the larger font size in the new version. In the old version, the border has the same color as the background of the box, and font size seems to be set to 0.85em. Obviously, this has low priority. Xsobev (talk)
Xsobev, this can be changed in Common.css, as shown here. You can find suitable parameters by playing with the code in User:Xsobev/commons.css. Then I will copy it to Mediawiki:Common.css, in order to apply this style globally. --Alexander (talk) 19:50, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Yurik, I am not sure what the outcome of phab:T136260 is. Your Module:Map has no style= parameter. Does it mean that we are not supposed to pass any style information to maplink, or how should it work? It would be awesome to adjust the in-text map marker using standard CSS styles. Note also that the current style of map markers is very different from what was used before. --Alexander (talk) 10:19, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Alexander, <maplink> uses mw-kartographer-autostyled CSS class for all automatic links. I thought it was identical to how it used to be, but lets configure it in Common.css to the way it should look - I think someone else also commented about it above. (You can try it in your own css user file until you like it, tell me how it should be changed) I do not want to introduce "style=" attribute (mediawiki plans to remove it outright in other places), but maplink/mapframe do support "class=" parameter so that styling can be consistently controlled with the CSS. --Yurik (talk) 18:26, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
See here for the CSS style optimized for Russian Wikivoyage. Thanks! --Alexander (talk) 19:50, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

@Xsobev: @Atsirlin: I updated the style for this wiki based on the above. Is it acceptable? If there will be no comments, i will mark this as done. --Yurik (talk) 19:56, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

  • @Yurik: The style of the marker boxes is almost the same again. The only missing part is a 1px border in the same color as the background of the box, for example: "border: 1px solid forestgreen" for the general green "listings" type marker. Old examples of marker styles can be seen here for example. Thanks a lot for your time. Xsobev (talk) 14:02, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Update: I spoke with our other engineers and our UI specialist, and it seems we need to slightly adjust these links. They might be okayish from the design perspective for desktop, but they may need to be adjusted for the mobile - they may be too small for the touch screen. I propose that we establish guidelines for these markers, and create a set of predefined classes that are global to all Wikivoyages (part of the maps code), and appear good on desktop and mobile. The community will then establish a set of additional classes, such as "kartographer-link-see" or "...-eat". Templates like {{see}} and {{eat}} will add corresponding classes. The classes will only modify the background color, and won't touch any other aspects. This allows us not to hardcode the color of the link, but instead use a much better CSS system, while also maintaining good UI and cross-language consistency. Thoughts? --Yurik (talk) 00:02, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Does this then force wikivoyage to only use templates in order to create links/maps? Is the use of <mapframe> and <maplink> to be avoided when they may be used for some condition that the templates don't provide for (such as creation a different group, different color other than the default color for type other, or even the use of various marker icons)? Or will the changes in maps code apply to both situations. Just wondering! -- Matroc (talk) 01:11, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
  • @Matroc: well, its not forcing anything - because you can still have <maplink class="my-class-name" .../>. But templates make it more consistent. After all, the backend code only affects the <maplink> and <mapframe> tags, not anything done in templates or modules. That said, I think it is better to use classes defined in MediaWiki:Common.css - like create a maplink-eat (or whatever other name community wants) class. This provides for consistency across pages. --Yurik (talk) 01:21, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
  • I checked the mobile version and I don't see any problems with the markers. Do engineers want to make them bigger, or what?
From previous experience we know that getting something decided across all language versions of Wikivoyage is next to impossible, so I would at least keep the option of CSS customization in the same way as it works now. If someone thinks that defaults should be different, well, let's see how these new defaults look like, and whether they fit into Wikivoyage articles. --Alexander (talk) 07:46, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

Questions from Developers[edit]

I agree that it is redundant. --Alexander (talk) 20:09, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
Category:Has_mapframeis not redundant, is used in statistics and status pages. Also useful when using boolean cat scan such as which articles in a country do or do not have map frames. As for Category:Pages with maps, not sure what this is saying, where is it generated? --Traveler100 (talk) 09:50, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
Traveler100, Category:Pages with maps is a Special tracking category, automatically populated whenever you have a <mapframe> or <maplink> on a page. How is that different from the Category:Has_mapframe, which gets populated by the {{mapframe}}? If someone inserts a map via some other method, like directly using <mapframe>, it won't be in the old category, but it will still show up in the automatic one. Plus there is a page to track broken maps (something that you cannot do from wiki markup). --Yurik (talk) 12:59, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
Hi @Yurik:, I think you just explained it yourself, Category:Has_mapframe is a subset of Category:Pages with maps, which is indicated by 2000+ pages in one category and 7000+ pages in the other. Whether a maplink is sufficient, since it opens up a full screen map (not a big fan actually), or that a mapframe should be inserted into articles to make maps more obvious could be further discussed. -- torty3 (talk) 09:20, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Or rather, I think map links are great for mobile phones, but not so much for desktop experiences. And the other way around for mapframes. Nice to see the progress on everything though, and thanks for that. -- torty3 (talk) 09:24, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
@torty3: that was my point - if you simply want to know "what links to the mapframe template", use this search - special page, if you want to find all maps, you can use the automatic tracking category. If you want two tracking categories - one for maps and one for links - create a task, and we can discuss it. But it makes no sense to me to have a category that duplicates "what links here". WRT full screen on link - that was the behaviour before - we simply made it much faster, more stable, and with some new features. If you think link click should do someting else, make a proposal and lets discuss. --Yurik (talk) 13:20, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
@Yurik:, the key is equivalent functionality. Perhaps if WhatLinksHere had an actual count and ability to be used in a tool such as CatScan, yet right now it does not. I'm not sure why it was decided not to have two different categories since they aren't the same in the first place. The speed and stability is definitely very much appreciated, but again opening full-screen maps is another use case that doesn't have equivalent functionality. Maplinks are not actually links that can be opened in a different tab/window. If I want to have the wiki page on one window and the map on another (and I didn't realise how much I used it in this manner), I have to do it in a roundabout fashion. I guess it's fairly minor in the scheme of things, but still irksome to me. -- torty3 (talk) 15:34, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
@Torty3: yes, the ctrl+click has been asked before - see tracked tasks. --Yurik (talk) 18:30, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
  • if the reason why it is needed can be solved with a better solution then sure we can discuss an alternative methods. It was initially introduced to provide readers with a POI map for a section of a long itinerary, for example in Trans-Canada Highway. We could not work out a method of displaying more than one map on a page at the same time. If you can work out a way to display more than one map in an article that would be an improvement. --Traveler100 (talk) 04:49, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
  • I migrated some of the pages that use {{PoiMap2}} directly to use {{PoiMap2raw}}. This is not a good solution overall, so maybe its usage should be rethought? --Yurik (talk) 01:24, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

Marker/pushpin-related issues[edit]

  • Symbol shape. The lack of distinctive shapes for each type of listing makes it more difficult interpret what the POI is unless you are very familiar with color scheme. --Traveler100 (talk) 12:33, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Not having different shapes for different types of listings is a step backwards. --Traveler100 (talk) 21:52, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Yep, its a TODO - see phab:T131618. I will try to get it soonish. Any help is greatly appreciated (like designing the icon in SVG, per bug comments) --Yurik (talk) 02:07, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Update: we could use some help on this one (no image designers on the team) - please create an SVG image for each of the needed icons just like these two files: [2] and [3]. The second one is for the shadow and an outline. Do not change the colors of the SVG - they are changed dynamically. Also, unless really needed, keep the same position of the images as in the examples. Please license the images under CC0. Thanks! --Yurik (talk) 18:26, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
  • This turns out slightly more complicated than anticipated. Apparently "pin" is hardcoded into the map, and might require some additional investigation. We are still investigating this one. --Yurik (talk) 10:57, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
  • @Yurik: When requesting a marker with a different style, for example "circle" instead of "pin", then the parameter gets accepted. The error seems to be returned only because there is no circle*.png image. So at least the makizushi code doesn't seem to contain any hardcoded values. Could you please give more details? Xsobev (talk) 13:50, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Bug report: There seems to be an area below each pushpin (with a similar width & height as the pushpin itself) which reacts to a single click in the same was as if clicking on the pushpin, which means it shows the name of the listing. Expected behaviour: The label should only be shown if clicked on the pushpin, but not on its surrounding area. Xsobev (talk) 12:12, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
    • @Yurik: Ok, I found the answer to why this area below the pushpin exists on github: The pointy bit of the pushpin has to be the centre of the image, so that it is positioned correctly on the map, which seems like an unfortunate limitation. Luckily, if we can use the marker symbols previously used on wikivoyage (see example), where the centre of the image is also where the marker should be placed, then the empty area below the marker won't be necessary anymore. Xsobev (talk) 13:42, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Fit map to all markers[edit]

  • In the previous mapframe version, there was a button ("Map center - all markers") which allowed to zoom out & center the map so that all markers of a page are visible in the mapframe (with one click). Would it be possible to add this feature in the new version? Thanks a lot. Xsobev (talk) 17:23, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
  • If you look at the old map, for example here for Stockholm, you can see a button with four arrows (with a tooltip that says "Map center <-> all markers") in the top-left corner (in the new map this button is now used to show the map in full screen mode). If you click it once, the map zooms out so that all makers on that map are visible. If you click it again, the zoom level goes back to where it was before. (Feel free, to copy this description to a new Phabricator ticket.) Xsobev (talk) 14:33, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Cannot fit map to all markers. --Traveler100 (talk) 20:10, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Other maps issues[edit]

  • I noticed that there are about 30 pages that use a color instead of the proper marker "type", for example California#See. Is that needed, or can we switch to named types? --Yurik (talk) 05:20, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • I would prefer to use named types everywhere - it will be confusing if someone decides to use the "eat" color scheme for "buy" listings, so rather than providing the ability to specify a color as a type value I think it would be better to add more types with distinct styles as needed. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:28, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • There seems to be something weird about the numbering too. For instance, in United States National Parks, all POIs with a number larger than 99 are numbered 99, both on the map and in the article. ϒpsilon (talk) 07:27, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • This is a limitation of the labeling system - it can only create numbers 0..99 and letters A..Z, but in any color and 3 different sizes. Also for maps like that I think it makes sense to simply use some icon instead of numbering? Its not like anyone will be trying to locate a park number #42 on a map among 300 other markers. Also we could set different colors, one per state? --Yurik (talk) 15:32, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • I believe the numbers are needed as reference to numbered text on page... I believe marker doesn't have color or an icon option as parameters. -- Matroc (talk) 16:39, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • @Matroc: I really doubt anyone would look at a map with 500 markers, and try to find that index on the page. I think we should add all the relevant information about the mark into the mark itself - this way user can simply click on it and get a popup with everything. If you still insist on the numbers, lets differentiate numbers by some region colors (should be better than to pick a different color for each state) --Yurik (talk) 02:07, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
@Traveler100: I think Roman Empire map should be broken down into multiple maps - there is very little use to add all POIs to the same map while the actual item is far below on the page. Instead, I think it would be much better to have multiple maps, one for each region, with its own POIs. What do you think? --Yurik (talk) 10:02, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
You may have a good case for the Roman Empire article. But could you please point me in direction of documentation for the counter parameter. Made quick test at Roman Empire#England but does not achieve quite what I was expecting. Also still think numbers larger than 100 are going to be needed for long hiking trails. For example Wales Coast Path and Rheinsteig are still work in progress projects, listings are going to increase. --Traveler100 (talk) 11:07, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
@Traveler100: The main doc is at Kartographer help page (please help improving it). For WV, Module:Map has some docs, plus the {{listing}} & {{marker}}. More specifically, each listing has to be marked with the right group, plus the map itself should be set to only show that group. I think we will need to cleanup the marker & listing templates, because currently they accept the type, group, and show, arguments, but don't work too well with them. I will see what I can do in the next few days to clean it up. Or feel free to poke at it yourself. --Yurik (talk) 18:50, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
@Yurik: I started to write something, see User:Traveler100/map-listings-explained but having difficulty understanding how counter influences groups on the map or the symbol used for the poi. See comments at Template talk:Marker#using multiple counters. --Traveler100 (talk) 17:30, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
@Traveler100: from the <mapframe/maplink> perspective, counters and groups have no relation with each other. Any data marked with the same "group" value will be shown for all maps in that group, plus it will be shown whenever the group is listed in the "show" parameter.
{{marker}} sets two values that are used in the Module:map: marker-symbol=-number-{{{counter|{{{type|listing}}}}}} | group={{{type|listing}}}. The module does not modify either of these two params, it simply passes them to the <mapframe/maplink> tags. Also, I think it is a mistake to set any params in the {{marker}} because the module can pick up params from the template that uses {marker} - this way marker template could become much simpler, and templates like {{see}} and {{do}} can set all the needed arguments. --Yurik (talk) 18:40, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
sorry but that explanation has not helped. What do mean by "will be shown for all maps in that group"? Also where can you set the show parameter if you have other types or is this hardcoded? For example why is only the group listing being show in Roman Empire, how do you show different counter groups? --Traveler100 (talk) 18:52, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
@Traveler100:, first, take a look at help page - groups, I tried to explain it there (please help fix it if you have a better way to explain it). In WV maps mode, each map (either a link or a frame) could belong to a group. All maps with the same group name share their content (geojson). So if you have two maplinks with some geojson content (like a POI or some mask), and both maplinks have "group=magic" parameter, their geojson content gets combined, and clicking either of these links will show data from both. That same data can also be shown in other maplink or mapframe that belong to a different group - by simply setting their "show=magic" parameter (more than one group can be listed). All this is about the raw <maplink> and <mapframe> tags. But in WV land, we use templates that hide those tags. The tag itself is created by the Module:Map. Template {{marker}} calls it with some parameters. Templates like {{see}} and {{do}} use the marker template, also with some parameters. We should clean up these parameters to simplify the whole system. The counter and group and show parameters are being either passed as is, or set from the "type" parameter. I will try to clean it up a bit, to make it simpler (suggestions are welcome). --Yurik (talk) 20:40, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
Maybe we are going about this the wrong way. Rather than trying to explain mediawiki code and trying to get non programmers to understand the technical side. Maybe the development team should write a simple user guide? What functions are being delivered, what will not longer work, which parameters will be available and what options can be used and how they will appear on the maps? --Traveler100 (talk) 06:17, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes Done When I add geo coordinates via the listing editor and then click on the newly created marker in the text, the map opens, but the new marker is not shown on the map. After reloading the page, the marker then shows on the map. Xsobev (talk) 11:31, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes, I think I saw this bug appearing somewhere. Could you add a Phabricator ticket (with the above link), and describe the exact steps to reproduce it? Thx! --Yurik (talk) 15:32, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • This seems to be fixed now. Marked as done - Thanks to whoever fixed it. Xsobev (talk) 14:11, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
  • In the original examples like the one at start of this section there were all the display options such as Destinations (nearby articles) and Boundaries. These options are not on the articles style map only on click through and geo map styles. --Traveler100 (talk) 21:52, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • @Traveler100:, could you elaborate, I'm not sure I understand this and the next request. Thx! --Yurik (talk) 02:07, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
  • How do you get an icon marking the goe cordinates of other Wikivoyage articles onto the map? In previous map tool or in the tool you get when press the map icon top right on a page there is a tick option "Destination" this is useful when looking at high density areas were you want to see nearby suburbs or when working on Go next section. The Boundary option to display district, counties and so on is also very useful when working on region articles. --Traveler100 (talk) 14:03, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
  • In click through map style when you display destinations you have to proactively click on location tags to see the article thumbnail image, on previous style a mouse over was sufficient. --Traveler100 (talk) 22:03, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
    • I will use Wales Coast Path again as example. Click on the map icon top right to get the standard map function. Switch on POI destinations (left side icon or right hand option). Move mouse over destination markers, will see thumbnail if image on page or Wikivoyage icon if no image on page. Back on article page Click on a point of interesting listing number, you get the new style map. Click the Explore Nearby Destination icons. You need to proactively click on a location marker to see the image. --Traveler100 (talk) 14:14, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
  • If you click on a listing number in an article is only shows other POIs of the same type (i.e. see or go or ..) it is not possible to see or even switch on other POI types. --Traveler100 (talk) 09:30, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
  • This functionality would be quite important to have. For example if you plan a trip and read the listings in "see" and want to find out if there are (a) any restaurants or (b) anything else at all near the see listing you are interested in. Xsobev (talk) 12:24, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
  • If you add a mapframe to a page, all existing markers on that page should be shown on the map preview. Currently only the markers of the section where the mapframe is added are shown. Currently it is not possible to test a good geo coordinate setting with the preview, so that for example all existing markers are visible. It's even more problematic if the section (for example "Get around") where the mapframe is added doesn't have any markers yet, because then no markers are shown. Xsobev (talk) 13:13, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Can the zoom level be shown on the new map. In the old map it is displayed on the top left corner. That way one can easily figure out what zoom level to the the zoom parameter to when adding a mapframe to a page. Xsobev (talk) 13:13, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes, this is a todo. In the mean time, you can see both the zoom and lat/long by making the map full screen, and looking at the URL - it has both. --Yurik (talk) 19:28, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Currently in the old map, when you right-click on any position, the geo coordinates are shown. That's useful for example to find a good set of geo coordinates when adding a mapframe to a page. It's even more important if you want to add geo coordinates to a listing. Xsobev (talk) 13:13, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
  • This is still under discussion - we want to cater to both readers and editors, so working on the design. In the mean time, you can see both the zoom and lat/long by making the map full screen, and looking at the URL - it has both. Also, Visual Editor allows an interactive adjustment of the map (granted that this is not applicable to templates) --Yurik (talk) 19:28, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Why under discussion, this is a very useful functionality for adding or correcting coordinates of listings. Why make things difficult for editors? --Traveler100 (talk) 07:09, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
I too find it frustrating; without this functionality I've no idea how to add coordinates for new listings. Google maps, maybe? Luckily the old map is still accessible, by clicking on the icon in the upper right corner of the article. From there it's possible to get coordinates, just as earlier. ϒpsilon (talk) 08:32, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
@Traveler100,ϒpsilon: it is embarrassing that long-time Wikivoyage editors are unaware of the service that was specifically created for this purpose. --Alexander (talk) 16:36, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
I am aware of this, in fact it is on my main bookmarks. However it is easier to use the existing article map, particularly as for many locations the GeoMap method request a couple of attempts to find the correct location for a specific name. Yes there are other way to do this, was just highlighting a regression in the new map function. --Traveler100 (talk) 16:49, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
Well, I didn't remember that the GeoMap thing existed (it's more than a year since I used it), because I've got used to taking the coordinates from the article's dynamic map which is just one click away from the article. Guess I have to add it to my quick links right away. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:01, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
  • With the new map in a mapframe: if you double-click, the map changes to full-screen. In the old map it would zoom one level in, which is also the behaviour I would expect. Xsobev (talk) 13:13, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
  • I'm not yet sure about the best design for this. We will try to do some A/B tests on what behavior users tend to use more, and possibly allow for per-user customization. --Yurik (talk) 19:28, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
  • This seems to be the behaviour with embedded maps from Google and Bing: double-click zooms in. Since many people use these embedded maps, they probably expect a similar behaviour. Xsobev (talk) 14:39, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
  • The problem occurs on Russian Wikivoyage, but I am sure that it can happen here as well. The {{marker}} template adds linebreak after the map marker. Example here, check the section with the list of cities. A few listings on this page produce the same problem (for example, #8 in See). Those are the listings with the empty address= or name= parameter. --Alexander (talk) 12:26, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
Yurik, the problem has been solved here, but it remains on the other page. I noticed that map marker produces this unsolicited linebreak when placed inside a span, div, or table environment. Do you know why it happens? --Alexander (talk) 20:08, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
  • PoiMap2raw, does not open in new browser tab. --Traveler100 (talk) 05:03, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Would like to have link in mapframe to open map in new browser tab. Yes you can on PC right mouse button to get option to open in new tab but I find doing this on mobile devices a little more tricky. Also when using mobile devices, particularly when download is slow or expensive, it is better to keep multiple tabs open (I sometimes keep tabs open when I have a network connection so I can use where no connection is available later in the day). --Traveler100 (talk) 05:09, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
  • When you edit a section of an article, the geo map symbol is no longer shown, so cannot check lat long values until you save the edit. --Traveler100 (talk) 07:03, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Cannot right mouse click or ctrl click on listing number to get map in new tab. --Traveler100 (talk) 07:04, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Feature request: Zooming in with a double-click does not work if there are pushpins at the location where you double-click. It would be great if a double-click on any part of the map (with or without pushpin) zooms in. Xsobev (talk) 12:12, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Not sure how related this is to the new map extension: Currently, when exporting a page to PDF, all the listings with geo information start with a "1". It might be better to show the actual geo coordinates, so that they can be used to find the location of the listing with for example the OsmAnd Openstreetmap app on your smartphone (or any other app/device that understands geo coordinates). Xsobev (talk) 12:36, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Migrating {{geo}} to new maps[edit]

Wikidata support[edit]

  • I would like to propose deleting {{geo}} template. Or more specifically, moving it into some template that every location page uses, and pulling coordinate data from the associated Wikidata page. This way you will no longer need to add geo to every article, but instead simply update the Wikidata coordinates, and it will show up automatically. Magic! Is there a template that is used on every location page? --Yurik (talk) 01:30, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
  • there has been a general convention on this site not to complicate one template with too many different functions. Makes it a challenge for new contributors to understand what is going on. Wikidata particularly is not easy to understand from reading the contents of a page and if you are not familiarly with the concept not very discovered. Again making editing for insiders only. (Wikipedia can afford declining contributors, this site cannot). If was merged we would still want to keep maintenance categories for tracking things like which articles have all templates but no coordinates. I would also be a little concerned about simply taking Wikidata information, many have corrected coordinates here or sometimes the Wikipedia coordinated are not exactly what you want for this site. Propose a method but do not make changes for change sake. Do not touch a running system.--Traveler100 (talk) 04:58, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
I think that inexperienced users should not touch things like geo-coordinates of an article, so that's not an issue at all. The question is how the system understands geo-location of an article. For example, does retrieve up-to-date information from Wikidata? Or does it work from the dump, as PoiMap2 did? --Alexander (talk) 07:50, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
@Atsirlin: That is actually the biggest concern I have at the moment with the "show nearby" - the new maps still rely on wmflabs to get a list of all articles, which is problematic in many ways (stability/security/maintainablity/...). The way system is designed now is "okayish" for the near term, but it will break soon - currently the user downloads the entire list of all articles on click. As the number of articles grow, so will the data size. Imagine having the same system on Wikipedia - and downloading coordinates for 2 million articles - that's over 1GB of data. So yes, this is to be discussed. Who is maintaining that script? --Yurik (talk) 16:53, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
Honestly, I don't know, but I ping Joachim as someone who should at least know how it works. --Alexander (talk) 18:03, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
  • I have found some of the coordinates in Wikipedia inaccurate or off a bit and in a few cases, the envoy article is linked incorrectly to the wrong Wikidata item which in turn gives one coordinates that are also incorrect. In some cases, I know I have created {{geo}} for pages that don't have (and probably will never have) a corresponding Wikidata item or Wikipedia article. The concept of using Wikidata as a source for many things is a wonderful concept; however, it too is not quite ready for prime time players. (Just one of my minor pet peeves). -- Matroc (talk) 15:02, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
  • @Matroc:, @Traveler100:, @Atsirlin: I do not mean Wikivoyage MUST use Wikidata. Instead, I only propose that {{geo}} uses Wikidata coordinates by default unless coordinates have been specified by hand. This way if you are not happy with the value in Wikidata, you simply provide your own (like you do now). And if you are happy, simply don't provide any. And if there are no coordinates in Wikidata - it might make sense for a user or a bot to add them (by copying them from the article) - thus benefiting all other smaller language projects who might not have enough resources to manage their own coordinates. Also, if there is no corresponding item in Wikidata, easy enough to add it (possibly by bot). The benefit from this will be automatic coordinates for all articles in all languages without any manual work. Lastly, I think Wikidata community will be very happy to get direct contributions from all projects, so they might eventually even introduce some onsite coordinate editing (ability to edit Wikidata without switching to it). Oh, and don't forget that Wikidata will hopefully be synced up more with OSM database - only increasing the quality of data. --Yurik (talk) 16:41, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
@Yurik: - I will go along with that. I am NOT opposed to using Wikidata but just get concerned about missing and inaccurate data that has been corrected in wikivoyage. -- (Would there be string formatting of the coordinates to lets say 4 or 6 decimal places or will it just import as is in Wikidata?) -- Matroc (talk) 00:11, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

{{geo}} migration blockers[edit]

Geo template (link to map in the upper right corner) is the only major feature that has not yet been migrated. Please help us figure out the absolute must-haves (blockers) to enable this feature. Each item has to be very clearly defined and actionable. Also, please do not add "nice to haves" here - they are clearly important for your workflows, and might be a temporary inconvenience that I hope we can fix very quickly, but check if it is a blocker (like it no longer shows critical data) or if it is something that can be re-introduced soon thereafter (like some styling inconvenience). Thanks! --Yurik (talk) 14:48, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

  1. limit on indexing about 99 listings for itineraries of long routes and larger travel topics like Roman Empire --Traveler100 (talk) 06:34, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
  2. when clicking on a listing need to be able to switch on all groups. For example I click on a see or do attraction, I want to see what places are to eat in the area. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:34, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
  3. the current map function has a fit option, which zooms in or zooms out until all listing POIs are displayed. As well as being useful to see all attractions of interest it is also a good method of checking if coordinates have be entered correctly or if listing should be on another article. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:34, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
  4. GPX paths plotted for trail routes. Click on one of the Detailed map links on Rheinburgenweg for exmaple. --Traveler100 (talk) 11:10, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
  5. Printing a full page map with the new map (expanded from a mapmask) results in a 7 page printout - looks like seven identical copies of the same map, but get a one page map when printing the map from the geo template. AlasdairW (talk) 22:58, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
  6. When printed in black and white different symbols are the same - eat and buy both are a mid-grey, sleep and drink are both black. We need to get the something like the symbols that the geo map has. (When I am printing at home I will generally print in colour, but in an internet cafe / hotel reception there can be a big difference in costs.) AlasdairW (talk) 22:58, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Unusual travel activities...[edit]

Posted this a while back -

And never got any feedback :( ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:46, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

I think these "unusual activities" should be added case-by-case in the relevant geographical article. Make sure the activity is always available, for instance getting in a movie production as an extra is interesting if the opportunity is available most of the time and not too difficult to get into. Cheers! :-) Syced (talk) 02:23, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
Already added a comment about the British "shoot" in recreational shooting for example, but some of the other things might need the assistance of other contributors, Like for example
  • how much Silverstone costs to do a lap on and so on?
  • Do classy US hotels do the full Afternoon tea , at a price?
  • Do you need an insurance waiver for a rodeo weekend?

(and so on)... Sfan00 IMG (talk) 08:15, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Balochi phrasebook[edit]

Anyone with the knowledge to expand this article, at least make it an outline? New user started but failed to continue the work. --Traveler100 (talk) 18:04, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Switching {{Quickbar}} to Wikidata[edit]

Hello everyone,

I'm working on a replacement (on the right for Andorra) for {{Quickbar}} which uses Wikidata instead of locally entered information. It's almost ready, I'm only waiting for a property proposal related to the electricity field. What do you think? Could it be deployed like this (after we have the electricity property)?

Warm regards, -- T.seppelt (talk) 14:50, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Full support from me, seems like a great idea. Thanks for working on this. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:25, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
Had done something similar about a year ago though I had added flag, image, bordering countries and description - this I like as it is simpler and less cluttered. -- Go for it! - good exercise. -- Matroc (talk) 19:02, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
Quickbars used to be standard on this site, didn't they? Why did we get rid of them in the first place? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:54, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
We didn't. They should still be on every Country article. Powers (talk) 21:13, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
250+ articles have quickbars (template) - Matroc (talk) 22:04, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
However compared to other language editions they contain much less detail. And some language editions also have them in every city article as well... Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:36, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
It looks great, but I prefer the smaller locator maps we currently use. We've found the quickbars often push more appealing visual content down, so we've kept them as short as possible vertically. Powers (talk) 21:15, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
Hmmm! -- Unfortunately what is in Wikidata is what you will get; be it a map, banner or an image, perhaps it could be resolved by passing arguments to override the map image etc. that is found in Wikidata... Just a thought -- Matroc (talk) 22:25, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
And so raises one of the major issues with using Wikidata for visual information rather than factual information: different projects have different aesthetic and layout needs. Powers (talk) 23:55, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
Local parameters are stil supported. We will be able to decide step by step which information we want from Wikidata. --T.seppelt (talk) 04:22, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I prefer the map in the Andorra example above as it conveys more information than the map currently in use at Andorra, and I like the idea that our locator maps would be consistent with those used at other projects. Insofar as the argument against Wikidata is that it reduces local control, I think the benefits of having the data kept up-to-date and in sync across projects outweighs the disadvantage of not having that info directly editable here, particularly since we can override it locally if needed. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:14, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
Having it "automatically" updated is a bonus as long as the vandals do not find their way to Wikidata. I, at least, have a hard time figuring out which Wikidata edits one should check and which one can trust. I also think pluralism is good, in the cases there are resources to maintain different versions. It is often valuable to be able to check something on other projects, which may use a slightly different definition or other sources, or be more easy for me to understand (cf the two locator maps – I have no problem recognizing Spain, but others may have). --LPfi (talk) 17:54, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
It's all well and good to prefer the large map aesthetically, but fitting it into our articles in a harmonious manner is a different story. As for commonality among projects, English Wikipedia uses a different set of locator maps; these are primarily used in German Wikipedia and a few other low-population Wikipedias. There are several other sets of locator maps, as well. Powers (talk) 20:13, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
Could be a good timing to steal this additional piece of German technology: "It also picks the qualifiers on wikidata for population and it compares your own data with wikidata. So you can activate Wikidata Tools do get a bigger quickbar with additional information like "different altitude on Wikidata" or something like that, including tools to edit Wikidata/the article." Cheers! Syced (talk) 08:17, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Is it worth adding Driving Side? -- WOSlinker (talk) 10:20, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

I added it. I'd like to keep the quickbar as simple as possible. If you want to travel to a country you don't need information about GDP, the president or the unemployment rate. All of our country articles are connected to Wikipedia articles. This is the place we one can get further information. –T.seppelt (talk) 14:02, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
The Plug Type that you were waiting for is now available. -- WOSlinker (talk) 15:34, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
I know. I am actually waiting for d:Wikidata:Property proposal/Sister projects#mains voltage because I'd like to have both the voltage and the plug type in one row as it is in Andorra. Your input would be appreciated at the property proposal discussion, I guess. -- T.seppelt (talk) 07:53, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

@Wrh2, Matroc, LtPowers, Hobbitschuster, LPfi: I actived the new version now. Please have a look at Andorra. I'm going to move the data of other country articles also to Wikidata and remove the local parameters. Warm regards, -- T.seppelt (talk) 07:26, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

T.seppelt, I'd suggest you wait a bit. It doesn't look to me like Powers is convinced this is the best course of action. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:33, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
I agree. We should come to a conclusion first. -- T.seppelt (talk) 07:39, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
The only concern raised was about the map image, right? Since the local param will override Wikidata, as long as the map is left as-is (for now) I think it should be fine to defer to Wikidata for other fields, and we can continue to discuss whether to use Wikidata maps or the current maps in the interim. -- Ryan • (talk) • 17:22, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
That's right. I can leave the overwrite for the map image even though I'd prefer to keep it consistent. -- T.seppelt (talk) 17:42, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
Consistent with what? As I pointed out above, a variety of locator map sets are used throughout WMF projects. This particular one is used on a handful of Wikipedias, most prominently German, but it's far from universal. Powers (talk) 19:29, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
If you use quickbar on a WV page that is not found in Wikidata you will get a Lua error because you are trying to build an edit link to an entry in Wikidata (which doesn't exist). In this case the which would be nil. (I am not suggesting that a wikidata item be added as a parameter to quickbar; but rather, to skip the creation of the Wikidata edit link in such cases.)
I have to say that I am still a bit cautious and express the need to address everyone's concerns. - Matroc (talk) 23:27, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
@Matroc: the latter is fixed now. The module doesn't create the edit link in these cases anymore. -- T.seppelt (talk) 06:35, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
@T.seppelt: -Thank you.... -- 18:24, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
So, the United States of America article now has a much longer quickbar than it did before. I'm not convinced this is a positive change. Is there an advantage to listing each time zone on its own line instead of just listing the range of timezones? (I shudder to think how Russia will look.) Why include a Euro conversion but not a Canadian dollar, British pound, or Japanese yen conversion? Is the exact date on which the population was estimated important, or is only the year important? Powers (talk) 02:40, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
@LtPowers: I see your point. In general the template just looks up data at Wikidata and displays what it gets (for USA look at Q30). This means that all these information can be edited there. But there is of course also the option to manipulate the output locally. Let's take it step by step:
  • Timezones: It's going to be hard to summarize all this timezones to "UTC−4 to UTC−10". We could either only display a couple of timezones ("UTC−06:00, UTC−07:00, UTC−08:00 and 5 more" or "UTC−06:00, UTC−07:00 ... UTC+12:00, UTC−05:00") but this not really appealing I guess. Or we use the local parameter to overwrite the Wikidata value.
  • Currency conversions: The currency conversions are always based on the data in the currency's item (for USD Q4917). Feel free to add more conversions there. See Ukraine as an example.
  • Date in the population field: If there is consensus for displaying only the year, this can be changed.
The module is pretty much at the beginning. Let's find ways to improve it. Warm regards, -- T.seppelt (talk) 08:00, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
Just wondering with the currency conversion if there is a need to show so many figures. Rather than 1 USD = 0.888375605 Euro, perhaps rounding the values to 4 might be better 1 USD = 0.8884 Euro ? -- WOSlinker (talk) 11:21, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
Two decimal places should be enough, at least for Euros. But that conversion rate is from February anyway. It apparently has to be manually updated, and that isn't happening regularly. I don't think we should show it at all. Powers (talk) 17:35, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

For the timezones, could you loop through the values to workout the MIN and MAX time zones and just show the "MIN to MAX" values? Also, with times such as Hawaii–Aleutian Time Zone, could you then go to that data item d:Q3241537 and see if P460 is set and if it is get the UTC time zone? -- WOSlinker (talk) 11:28, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

I implemented now a new format for the conversions and for the date in the population field. With the timezones it's more complicated because Wikidata doesn't store the offset of a timezone in a structured way. The only possible way would be to parse the offset based on the label of the timezone item which is not error-proof I think. An idea would be to propose a new property "timezone offset" -- T.seppelt (talk) 16:19, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
I'm stunned such a property doesn't already exist. I can't think of any reason we should outsource our data display formats to Wikidata; we should be getting raw data from WD and formatting it *our* way, which is going to be different from the way Wikipedias format it. Powers (talk) 17:35, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
As I said before, what you see in Wikidata is what you get. Editing Wikidata to meet one wiki site's needs is not necessarily the way to go unless Wikidata is completely incorrect for all intents and purposes. I can foresee some future project Wikidata edit wars which we don't need or want ... Using local parameters (overrides) is a better option for those parts that are in question or yet another property could be added to Wikidata.
As far as currency goes, I would want to see a "rupee" symbol rather than "INR" or a "dollar" symbol rather than "USD". That is just me I guess.
The capital listed could possibly be made into a voy link by drilling down and checking if a wikivoyage page exists for that capital. (though this is not 100% perfect either).
The quickbar module is a work in progress and going through transformation - it is good to have these conversations now. I think it is also important to remember that one shoe size does not fit all. Some flexibility has to be made available.
An aside - WOSlinker - wow - I have seen your name pop up many times before and I just remembered that I tested your Module:IsLatin in 2013 on Mediawiki, time flies -- Matroc (talk) 20:40, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
I apologize, I thought I had made it clear that I wasn't suggesting that Wikidata should store our preferred presentation of the data. My point is that Wikidata should not be storing any sort of presentation/formatting at all. It should store raw data, which individual wikis then format as necessary. I'm fine using Wikidata's data; but in no way should we be beholden to Wikidata's choice in how that data is represented. Powers (talk) 21:09, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
I agree - it is what we can do with the raw data that counts most -- Matroc (talk) 21:47, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Okay. Thank you for your input. I'll try to transform it into some improvements. Firstly the module already works like a formatting unit for raw data which comes from Wikidata. The fields for currency, population, electricity and emergency use advanced formats which are applied locally. And of course this formats can be changed. I didn't intend to say that we should edit Wikidata according to one project's needs. I just said that Wikidata is the place to add, correct and remove information in case information is missing, incorrect or wrong. Let's improve also Wikidata through improving this module. Now:

-- T.seppelt (talk) 06:10, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

  • I think showing "USD" is more important than showing "$", as that is what you will use at the exchange desk. The symbol will be shown in Buy regardless. For the exchange rate, we should have some way to guarantee up to date values or otherwise not show anything (if we want an approximate rate, it can be given in Buy).
  • The timezone is a problem only for a handful of countries, overriding manually is no problem.
  • I would prefer radical rounding of any numbers. USA having 320 M inhabitants is exact enough for any visitor – and with such rounding there is less need to update yearly (and exact numbers are meaningless without date and method of counting, which are better left to Wikipedia).
--LPfi (talk) 16:47, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
The timezone problem should be solved in one week when the property proposal is approved. The rounding can be easily implemented. I'd stil like to see some more comments on this since it's a bit of work. The discussion on the Wikidata Project chat about currency symbols got very deep. I think the ISO abbreviation solution is the best we can get for now. --T.seppelt (talk) 19:11, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
My two cents   ;-)
  • I prefer "USD" to "$", because multiple currencies use "$".
  • Rounding is good. But does "radical rounding" mean three significant figures ("320M" for the US, "331K" for Iceland, "2,910" for the Falklands), or does it mean "320M" for the US, "300K" for Iceland, and "0" for the Falklands? WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:12, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
@T.seppelt: For the rounding, you may want to check out make_sigfig and format_number in Module:Convert. -- WOSlinker (talk) 07:04, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
I'm thinking 3 sigfigs is good enough (although it risks looking deceptively precise for places like Pitcairn Islands, I don't think rounding "67" to "70" is necessarily a better idea). I appreciate the dialog we're having here. Powers (talk) 11:06, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

one large or many small articles[edit]

I would like some input on recommendations regarding whether it is best to have a number of small location articles or have a single good sized one? This is not a policy discussion but more aesthetics and usefulness to the reader. Take for example Beer, Branscombe and Seaton, all close to one another, is enough attractions to make each a usable article but there is never going to be more than a couple of listings per section. Or Grantchester, is this far enough outside Cambridge (England) and enough information to be its own article? No debate all these settlement are in their own right valid destinations but it is useful to the traveller to click through lots of small articles? --Traveler100 (talk) 12:23, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

I think it's hard to tell if you don't know the place... Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:59, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
One thing to consider is if you sleep in one place would you have dinner in the other. Beer is 1.5 miles from Seaton so walking to have dinner in the other is quite possible. Branscombe is 4 miles away, and some buses between the two go via Sidmouth, which is about 5 miles from Branscombe. So my thought is that Beer could be merged into Seaton. With the name Beer, it may be worth considering how many readers would be looking for an article about the drink, and would they be confused reading about Seaton? I think that I would leave Branscombe as it is, mainly because it is midway between two places it could be merged with, and the distance is probably a little too big to merge in a place with multiple listings. AlasdairW (talk) 22:37, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
I've been struggling with this with Australian articles recently. I guess the question what would you find more useful when visiting? My preference is for a large article covering many smaller places, but not precluding splitting off a smaller location if the quantity of material is large enough. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:26, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
I like the idea of where you would go for diner from where you are staying, useful concept/guideline. On the specific of the example I was thinking of making Beer a disambiguation page. --Traveler100 (talk) 08:04, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
On that topic, I can't find any policy guidance on how to disambiguate between places and topics that share the same name. All of our guidelines assume that naming conflicts are only for one place against another place. Powers (talk) 15:40, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

Copy and paste detection[edit]

Hey All We have been successfully running a bot to pick up copy and paste issues on En Wikipedia per [4]. Would WV be interested in a bot running here? It is about 60% accurate and we see copyright issues in about 5 to 10% of substantial edits. Travel Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:40, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't think it could do much harm... And it good help getting rid of that google penalty... Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:10, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
That bot has already been set up on Wikivoyage, although it hasn't made any edits in a while: Special:Contributions/EranBot. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:36, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
Ah perfect. Will see about activating it again if people find it useful. Travel Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:40, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
Please run it. I've been detecting a lot of these manually, but I can't always be here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:01, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

Informal hiking trail - how to document?[edit]

I'm travelling Yunnan in Southwest China at the moment. In the Xishuangbanna region, a popular activity is hiking through the tropical forests and tea plantations, passing through minority villages. While the possibilities for routes are almost endless, there seem to be two multi-day treks that are commonly done by western travelers (I have no insight into the Chinese scene, unfortunately). Most documentation on them is jotted down in the guest books at Cafe Mei Mei in Jinghong, one of them made it to old editions of the Lonely Planet (but is no longer present in current editions). Wikivoyage currently has no hiking information for this area.

Now, how would I best document these on Wikivoyage? I've considered just adding a "Hiking" section to the Xishuangbanna page, but I'd like to make the instructions quite detailed ("turn right at the Temple [...] hike up the hill, cross the road, [...] pass the lake") and maybe add a map with a GPX track. Is this an acceptable use for an itinerary page, even though this isn't any sort of official or marked trail? LeonHandreke (talk) 11:50, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

I think you should create itineraries. Here are a couple of hikes I have started to document: Rheinsteig, Rheinburgenweg. Not saying this is the only way to document such a topic. It would be interesting to see a more detailed trail description with directions. Do not think that has been tired yet, give it a go an lets see how it looks. --Traveler100 (talk) 13:11, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
Yes. I think established routes are not a problem. It becomes a problem only if there are many possibilities and people de facto choose their own route, and people start making itineraries based on random choices. --LPfi (talk) 14:10, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
Some limited branching in an established route is also fine. See Orient Express for one example. In general hiking trails are sadly somewhat underrepresented here and it would be great to see that change. Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:56, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
Existing itineraries in the region are Tiger Leaping Gorge and Yunnan tourist trail; either might give you some ideas but the Gorge article is closer to what you want to do. Three Parallel Rivers National Park also discusses trekking. Pashley (talk) 11:23, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

GPS coordinates in China[edit]

I remember some time ago a conversation on coordinates being a little out of place with China locations. Can someone point me the information? Trying to understand difference between different map apps results. --Traveler100 (talk) 10:38, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

I remember there was a discussion on this topic, looked at a few Travellers' pub archives but did not find it. If I come across it will pass that info on. -- Matroc (talk) 19:25, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Listings with same name in same article[edit]

Is it considered OK? Syced (talk) 07:53, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

Absolutely yes on "Brooklyn Public Library", which is the name of the entire public library system in Brooklyn that has numerous branches. Every branch is useful to travelers because of the free computer time you can use there, as well as other services. I'll let someone else address "Family Dollar". Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:59, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
This looks to be finding duplication of the same listing into multiple sections. For instance, "Sportsman Inn" and "Killarney Mountain Lodge" each appear in at least three sections of Killarney (Ontario) ("eat", "drink", "sleep") while some pizza joint in Kabankalan has listed itself once in "eat" (fair enough) and twice in "sleep" (which is spam in a can, really, can you sleep there?). We do need to distinguish between multiple locations in a chain (which may be legit) vs. duplicate listings for the same location (such as the same motel location listed in three different parts of town, or a hotel arbitrarily listed again for its restaurant and bar). There's also the question of when these become boring and repetitive - do we need every McDonald's? every grocer in a chain? every dollar store? McDrivel usually has wi-fi, but they look a lot alike after a while. K7L (talk) 15:44, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
In a place like the East Side of Buffalo, it's an unfortunate reality that dollar stores fill a niche left empty by an absence of other places to buy food. More importantly, I have to ask what is the pressing need to upset the apple cart. Duplicate listings don't, for example, cause any problems with the dynamic map; there've been no examples cited of unrelated businesses with the same name that may be confusing for travellers; listing multiple locations of the same chain gives travellers options to choose from in determining what fits best with their itinerary. The question of "do we need to list every McDonald's" has been posed, but no examples have been given of an article where every McDonald's is listed. So, is there an actual, specific problem with the status quo, or are we seeking one out that doesn't necessarily exist? Do we need to overlegislate and overregulate every aspect of this site, or can we just leave certain things be? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:45, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
I think arguably if there are more than 8 or 9 listings in a single article for the same chain, it's worth looking at to see if we can just say "there are a bunch of Chain X outlets around" or something similar. If there's that many of them, they can't be hard to find. Powers (talk) 18:09, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
Yes, but this whole thread strikes me as meddling for its own sake. We're still talking about duplicate listings as an overall concept rather than real-world manifestations of why they are a problem that needs fixing. One of the things that I like about Wikivoyage as opposed to Wikipedia - and I know I'm not alone on this - is that on this site there aren't pages upon pages and reams upon reams of policies and regulations governing every word and paragraph we write. At Wikivoyage, there are certain common-sense parameters within which we work - there are standard section headings, for example, and a manual of style that serves as a good solid framework without being overbearing - but in general the author of a given article has free rein to develop it mostly as he or she sees fit. And I can't help but get a bad taste in my mouth every once in a while when some user comes in the Pub talking about a phenomenon he or she seemingly chose at random, apropos of nothing, with the assumption that it's a big issue that merits our attention. In my opinion, either show me a specific article where not only do duplicate listings exist, but their presence negatively affects the article from a user's perspective - or better yet, show me a widespread pattern of articles where that's the case - or else it's a nonissue that doesn't merit being worried about. And in my opinion, you can substitute for "duplicate listings" any other concept or phenomenon that might conceivably become a problem. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:59, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
The duplicate list is useful as it can be used as a starting point for some tidying up. In some cases the duplication is fine and in other cases they can be merged into one listing. One example is the Wrolen Pin Cafe in Hodgenville which could be merged into one listing. Otherwise, what's the point in having any of the maintenance categories? -- WOSlinker (talk) 20:16, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
Exactly, my intent was not to launch a witch hunt. I was just playing with the database trying to find interesting facts about it, and this one stroke me as something that might catch someone's interest. The statu quo is fine for me, and by the way there is no special technological reason which would require uniqueness, don't worry. If we have real (unintended) duplicates, they are in this list. Syced (talk) 04:50, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

"WV talk" link?[edit]

It's often handy when writing to use shorthand, so instead of writing [[Wikivoyage:Name of page]] I sometimes use the abbreviation [[WV:Name of page]], which works the same way. I've just found out, however, that [[WV talk:Name of policy page]] does not link to [[Wikivoyage talk:Name of policy page]]. Could someone familiar with the coding needed please fix this? Saving keystrokes is great for the hands! Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:51, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't remember if such an animal actually exists; however, I think that a shortcut of Wikivoyage design could probably be accomplished through a REDIRECT? - just a thought -- (There is Shortcut template that creates a box - also a Wikivoyage page on shortcuts - maybe something could be garnished from that discussion etc.) --Matroc (talk) 02:41, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
I don't think that this could be realized using normal redirects. As far as I know it's a matter of the MediaWiki configuration. I'd try to open a phabricator ticket. Could anybody do that? –T.seppelt (talk) 05:52, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
I agree that it's a configuration issue and that redirects aren't appropriate. But we should discuss whether it should be "WV Talk", or "WT" like on Wikipedia. Powers (talk) 20:25, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
I am opposed to WT meaning anything other than that other site - even in wiki syntax. We will at some points in time have to mention them (before that one company shuts them down) and WV talk makes much more sense imho. Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:03, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
I agree with Hobbitschuster on this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:33, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
This isn't a shortcut, but if you're working on multiple projects or multiple languages, it's handy to know that you can always reach the local equivalent of the "Wikivoyage:" namespace via "Project:". This English label, and its matching "Project talk:", works everywhere. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:14, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Ghost hunting...[edit]

Whilst there's no empirical scientific evidence for the existence of ghosts, I was wondering where I should put things like Ghost walks in UK cities, or the better know alleged haynted houses and sites. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:23, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

You could create an itinerary if it's a specific self-guided tour or a travel topic if you just want to highlight so-called haunted sites in a specific country/area. I would focus on the places though and not on how to hunt ghosts. How to hunt could briefly be covered in one heading, but focusing specifically on the how is not travel-related, while focusing on haunted places (where it is, who is said to haunt it, what sort of things do people either see or experience that "prove" it's haunted, etc) makes an excellent topic. If the building/place is of enough fame or there are other reasons to visit, you can of course also list it in the city article. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 13:47, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
I had simmilar queries about crytpzoology tourism, casual Nessie hunting is a known thing for some visitors to the Highlands :) Sfan00 IMG (talk) 15:17, 1 June 2016 (UTC) (This is my alternate account)
I might create a general topic of "Paranormal tourism" , if there is someone that's able to cover stuff beyond the UK. In any case I'd like to get started on it so it can be brought to a usable staus by the end of October :) Sfan00 IMG (talk) 15:31, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
I've started an outline at Paranormal tourism , it would be appreciated if the other Wikivoaygers were able to assist, or help put in things that are nationaly or internationaly well-known ones. I've linked a few existing articles that seemed to be relevant, and depending on how the article expands, might consider splitting off the "Ghost" aspect.Sfan00 IMG (talk) 11:32, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
We need a better banner. Is there some mysitcal looking stone circle that could be used? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 16:55, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Wikivoyage listings with articles on Wikipedia[edit]

Does anyone know a way of seeing how many listings on Wikivoyage destination articles have an article on Wikipedia? Wondering about the amount of data to be created if we do links in both directions. --Traveler100 (talk) 15:20, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

I recently counted that for 2 random articles. Each article had about 3 listings with an equivalent Wikipedia article. So I guess the total number would be around 50,000.
Counting listings with a Wikidata property might give a better approximation... but we only have 46 on the English Wikivoyage haha. The French Wikivoyage has 8675 Wikipedia+Wikidata attributes for 56504 listings, so if we reach the same ratio we could have ~40,000 for our 273871 listings. Syced (talk) 06:38, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

You can switch between wikitext and visual editing[edit]

Hello, everyone.

This is just a quick note to point out that editors at this Wikivoyage have access to both the wikitext and visual editors. You can switch between the two systems in the middle of an edit. These images show where to find the button to do this:

So: why am I telling you this? It's because I've asked the devs to turn on an option in Special:Preferences for all of the Wikivoyages. They will probably do this on Monday, 6 June 2016.

For people who use both editing systems, this preference setting will let you choose whether to have two tabs (how it works today) or just one. I like having two tabs, but many editors want just one, to always open their favorite editing system. They can use these buttons to temporarily switch to the other whenever they want. This option works well for most people. However, experience on other wikis shows that a few people who are used to two tabs usually get "stuck" in one and can't figure out how to switch to the other editing system. So please look for these icons the next time you open an article to edit; they're available to you today, and they'll help if anyone gets stuck next week.

Here are the three things that I want you to know about this change:

  • If you haven't enabled the visual editor, then you already have just one "Edit" tab, and this change should not affect you.
  • If you have two editing tabs now ("Edit" and "Edit source"), then on Monday, you will only have one. (Don't worry!) As soon as the second editing tab disappears, the new prefs setting will appear. You can go to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing, find the drop-down menu named "Editing mode", and choose whatever you want. (You won't see this option if you have the visual editor disabled.)
  • If you get stuck, remember that you can use those two buttons to switch to the other editing system.

There is more information about this feature at mw:VisualEditor/Single edit tab. I'll be around Monday when this happens, so please ping me if you encounter any unexpected problems.

By the way, for those of you who want to try out the visual editor, please remember it will be easier to add templates in the visual editor if you've added TemplateData information to their documentation pages.

Happy editing, Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:16, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

BTW, this happened on schedule, almost 8 hours ago. If you ran into any problems or weird things, please let me know. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:53, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Desert Safety[edit]

Do we have an article? was wanting to link something in an article I recently created. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 11:42, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

No we do not have that yet (I think I'd noticed), but I think having it would be good. If you know something about it, you are welcome to create an outline. I think it would be quite easy to write enough for it to be useful. The general guidelines of Hiking in the Judaean Desert could be used as a starting point. --LPfi (talk) 18:43, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
As the furtherest abroad I've ever been is Paris, I'm probably not the best person to write a 'desert' article. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:00, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
But you might be the right person to start it.  ;-) If you can get the page created and a couple of sentences into it, then {{ping}} me and remind me to help. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:37, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
Arid_region_safety - Went with this, because it would also cover some areas that aren't strictly true desert, but where

a similarity of advice might be applicable. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:58, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Winningpeg Immigration Programme[edit]

Please house I will like to know if the programme is still running. Thanks (Gernal8 (talk) 14:25, 4 June 2016 (UTC))

Which programme? While this is outside our scope, a provincial nominee program for Manitoba immigration is available at K7L (talk) 19:11, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Wu phrasebook[edit]

There have recently been a handful of edits to this. Is anybody here who can check their accuracy? Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:40, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

There seems to be a mix of romanization formats throughout the article. If it were an important language (such as Mandarin) to the traveler it would be worth correcting that but Wu is more for curiosity than any practical application. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:12, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
It is useful but not essential to know Wu if you're in Shanghai. Gizza (roam) 13:04, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
In other words, it's a damn sight more useful than Esperanto and worth correcting it or making it consistent, if anyone would like to do so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:57, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Request to lock an alternate[edit]

Per some comments on another wiki, I was informed that there's a move to eliminate alternate accounts. I have an alternate account at User:Sfan00_IMG, and thuslly would like to request that User:Sfan00_IMG gets locked. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:17, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Confirming from alternate account. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 13:20, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
Re-confirming from main account. 13:21, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
Unless there's a button I've missed, no one on Wikivoyage has the ability to lock an account - you'll need to request a steward to do it on meta. -- Ryan • (talk) • 17:45, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
Admins can do it, locking an account is essentialy the same as applying a block (albiet the reason being a "user iniated request" as the reason. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:56, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
"Lock" is now a bit of jargon for stewards preventing someone from logging in. (If you're "blocked", you can login, look at your watchlist, and usually edit your talk page. If you're "locked", you can't do any of that.) See m:Lock for more details.
I am dubious about this report that "there's a move to eliminate alternate accounts". It seems far more likely to me that someone is hoping that he can change the policy. I won't believe that until I see it, to be perfectly frank. Too many admins use alternate accounts for perfectly legitimate reasons, such as not wanting to type the passwords for their admin account into a public/library/university computer. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:07, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Botanical tourism[edit]

Anyone got a good flowerbed a banner could be made from? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:08, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

How about tulips? Danapit (talk) 19:07, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
That works, Do you also know where the major tulip areas are ? :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:57, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
The Netherlands. Lots of history, and still the leading bulb exporter. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:51, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

need redirect for old WikiTravel userpage[edit]

Problem with the new Quickbar[edit]

I noticed on Australia in the {{Quickbar}} that the Great British Pound is a valid currency, which might surprise many Australians :)

The reason is because Wikidata [5] accurately records the GBP as a previous currency of Australia (which it was until 1910), but the Wikibar is picking it up as a current currency.

T.seppelt : Are you able to fix this? Thanks! --Andrewssi2 (talk) 10:07, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

@Andrewssi2: I fixed it. Please see d:Help:Ranking. -- T.seppelt (talk) 10:14, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
Thanks! --Andrewssi2 (talk) 10:36, 8 June 2016 (UTC)


Another 'unusual' travel topic, but one that could be greatly expanded. The intent is that this should include important early Labyrinth sites as well as attraction Mazes, which is a natural split if the article gets too big. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:47, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps somebody could look at the Wikidata entry for this, as "In Other Projects" links to w:Labyrinths, which is about a book, not mazes. AlasdairW (talk) 23:05, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
Perhaps it's been fixed, but Labyrinths currently links to w:Mazes (in 'Related sites') and to w:Labyrinth (in 'In other projects'), not to w:Labyrinths. Powers (talk) 20:44, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Another overview topic[edit]


I have some questions, namely when did Coney Island and others actually start?

The early ones I can recall from memory are Coney Island, Blackpool, and Luna Park (which is either Sydney or Melbourne not sure which).

I'm also not sure where to draw the line between formal park gardens ( probably more suited to Botanical Tourism), Pleasure Gardens ( which are not necessarily floral), and what would be considered the modern amusement park. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:06, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

According to the English Wikipedia article on w:en:Amusement parks, w:en:Dyrehavsbakken, open since 1583, claims to be the world's oldest; Blackpool and Coney Island date to the mid-19th century.
It looks like the oldest "modern" type (fully enclosed) was Sea Lion Park at Coney Island in 1895. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:51, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Arid region safety[edit]

Do we have a docent from an arid region? I started this outline, but wasn't sure what it needed, what's in it so far is based on my very limited knowledge. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:14, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Until someone who knows more about arid regions finds this, there is perhaps a thing or two worth bringing over from the Stay safe sections of articles of the places mentioned in Arid region safety#Understand. ϒpsilon (talk) 20:00, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

US National Parks[edit]

Are any at "featured" ready level?

I ask because 2016 seems to be the centennial of the NPS-

I assume we have an an item on Yellowstone ? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:22, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

There are a number of United States National Parks at guide level, such as Glacier National Park (which I could probably add at least some more photographs and hike trails to) and at least one (Yosemite National Park) at star level. --Traveler100 (talk) 23:30, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
Yosemite has already been DotM. Glacier has not. Powers (talk) 23:45, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

The visual editor for this wiki[edit]


I'd like to talk to you about setting up the visual editor for contributors to this wiki.

Side-by-side screenshots, showing the visual appearance of both editing systems

The visual editor allows people to edit Wikivoyage articles as if they were using a typical word processor. If you're not familiar with it, then please try it out. Going to will let you see its current state. (Feel free to edit and save; it's just a sandbox.) Or click on the picture there to enlarge it, if you just want a quick look. If you want to see more, then there are some screencasts on Commons.

If you want to keep using it here, then you will need to enable it for your account. This is quick and easy: Go to "Beta Features" in your preferences. Choose "VisualEditor" and click save. When it is enabled, press the "Edit" button to edit an article. When the visual editor is open, you can switch to the wikitext editor any time you want. Just click the [[ ]] icon in the toolbar, next to the "Save" button. Inside the wikitext editor, click the pencil icon (Edit icon.svg) in the upper right corner to switch to the visual editor. (If you prefer having two tabs, or if you want to change the editing system that opens first, then go to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing and choose your favorite option for the "Editing mode".)

On the tech side, this could be done at any time, but we've got a couple of requests in the system to customize this software for Wikivoyage. The first (phab:T133725) is to move the big "Cite" button into a the "Insert" menu, since you probably don't want Wikipedia-style citations. The other (phab:T96710) is to add the popular listings templates into the toolbar. You can access them easily now (Insert > Template and search for See, Do, Eat, etc.), but this would make them even quicker. My suggestion is to wait until the first is done, but not to wait for the second.

There is a short guide at that has some tips about getting the best value out of the visual editor for your project, but the relevant bits are this:

  • It's much easier to add templates if you've added TemplateData information. This has already been done for the listings templates.
  • For more information about how to use the visual editor, see mw:Help:VisualEditor/User guide.
  • Let me know if you find any problems in either editing system. You can report issues in Phabricator or, for the visual editor, on the central feedback page on Also, you can always leave a note on my talk page.

Please let me know what you think about the idea of setting up the visual editor here. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:46, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

I'm a bit confused. I was very sure that this wiki already has the visual editor and I have used it before. However if I check now (and thinking of it, it has been like this for at least 2 weeks) I can't access it any more. Has there been a recent change on this? Drat70 (talk) 09:26, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
If you want to use it now, then you have to enable it (and set your prefs so you can find it, if you want), or switch to it after opening the wikitext editor. See #You can switch between wikitext and visual editing for more information (and {{ping}} me if anything's unclear). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:55, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
Since no one has raised any particular concerns about doing this, I have asked the team to schedule this for next Tuesday, 28 June 2016. Please ping me if you would like me to change this. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 16:59, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
This will probably happen in about 22 hours. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:26, 27 June 2016 (UTC)


I think we have had discussions about the two (three) possible ways to visualize pronunciation more than once now... There are in short:

  • pseudo-phonetics using an English based system - very inaccurate prone to being misunderstood, arguably the one English speakers understand the best
  • IPA symbols - not ambiguous, not English based - arguably unlikely to be known by many people
  • Audio files: Hard to do (we'd need a bunch of native speakers), hard to get out in a pinch (e.g. the check comes in a restaurant and you want to know what to say now), difficult to make portable; cannot be printed - Upside: everybody understands it and it is the least unambiguous.

Now we will most likely not get to any solution, because we did not the last time around, but maybe some combination of two of the three or all three might be a good idea?

Alternatively, we might seriously consider whether phrasebook are / should be part of our mission with the "others do it better by default" argument. I don't know whether this has merit, but a lot has changed since the first phrasebooks were written on this project... Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:00, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

@Hobbitschuster: Since the traveller comes first, we should employ the most usable option which is some psuedo-phonetics. Small and unintrusive icons for audio which are excluded in print would be helpful but as you point out, it will be awhile before we have recordings of everything. —Justin (koavf)TCM 22:42, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
Every voyage begins with single step. But we have to take that step if we want to get somewhere... At any rate, you oppose IPA? Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:47, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
@Hobbitschuster: Not at all! Just think of what's maximally useful. We could even have IPA in a chart at the beginning alongside the more intelligible pronunciations and then just use the non-standard but easier to understanding pronunciations throughout the guides. —Justin (koavf)TCM 22:57, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
You see, I think IPA is easier to understand. Because while some sybols are hard to grasp, they always mean precisely the same thing in any given context. No system based on the incredibly illogical English letters to sounds system could even come close to that. And that is before you fogure in sounds English does not have. I understand that some people will not know or understand IPA, but as debates about whether Spanish e sounds like "e" or "ay" (the latter being a sure telltale sign for a broad American/English accent imho) have shown, English is ill-equipped to show how other languages are pronounced. In some cases those pseudo-pronunciations might even confuse people unnecessarily. Spanish or German letters to sounds relations are pretty straightforward, but if it says "bwaynous dee-ars", even people who have understood the Spanish pronunciation logic might get confused.... Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:25, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
It would be "BWAY-nohs DEE-ahs", which, rendered by a native speaker of most English dialects, comes out close enough for most native Spanish speakers to understand (or so I would think). IPA is great for accuracy, but unless you have a good majority of the hundreds of symbols memorized, useless for rendering foreign sentences on the fly. Powers (talk) 20:29, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
We have to explain what sounds exist in a given language at the beginning of the article regardless. And some sounds are impossible to represent by English letters because they don't exist in English. And most languages we would have phrasebooks on don't have hundreds of sounds but a more manageable number somewhere around fifty or lower than that. So it may make sense to explain the sounds at the beginning (meaning the readers can make sense of the IPA symbols) and then give them the IPA symbols with the words. Because quite frankly "bad is good enough" should not be a motto, not even in the crutch we give people trying to pronounce our phrasebooks... Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:13, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
I cannot talk for native speakers, but for me, with a quite phonetic writing system in my own language(s), the IPA codes often really are much more readable than the English approximations. Most sounds in the languages I know have IPA symbols that look like the letters used for these sounds (a or ɑ for a, e or ɛ for e etc.), thus one can concentrate on the odd ones, or nuances of the quasi-familiar ones. --LPfi (talk) 18:54, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
Same here. I think part of this debate is whether we should address English native speakers first and foremost (soodou founeticks) or speakers of all languages who read English (IPA) Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:54, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
Considering there are no other phrasebooks accessible to monolingual English speakers except for these, while polyglots have (at least theoretically) the option of using phrasebooks in their native languages, I should think we would have to target English native speakers as the primary audience. (Also, if a language has sounds in it that aren't present in English, how exactly does IPA help, unless the reader also knows a language that does have the sound?) Powers (talk) 21:10, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Connections in Riga[edit]

In about a week, I and my girlfriend are going to Riga, Latvia. Our hotel is very near the centre of the city, at Kaleju iela, almost right next to the railway station and close to the river. How do we get there from Riga airport? JIP (talk) 19:37, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

Reposted at the tourist office. JIP (talk) 20:26, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

Listing syntax change - minor edits needed[edit]

Requesting a little assistance to tidy up image parameter of listings. The command no longer requires or will accept the full Commons address of the image, just the image name. Also the type File: is not required or accepted any more. This is an improvement but has broken the link of a number of the references to images created. I think it best to fix the link name than change the listing code. See Category:Pages with broken file links for list; best to go into edit mode and search for text string image to find the culprits. --Traveler100 (talk) 05:24, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

  • Fixed one - in processing of checking more -- finding names of images that do not exist in Commons at this time. I think that is yet another case for red link -- Matroc (talk) 05:56, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Is see what you mean, fixing the syntax only solves some of the image issues. Looks like the change to the code also means these image references are also been checked, which is good. Another positive is that the the use of images in listings are now showing up in the File Usage list on the image page.--Traveler100 (talk) 06:48, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
  • In a Sandbox, I scan an article page with a Module and produce a gallery of images (.jpg,.svg,.tif and .png) (about 95+% accurate) -- generally those names that do not produce an image are evidently not in Commons (names of images not found appear in gallery which has been helpful!) - I have been removing those that do not have a match in Commons after checking them a second time and fixing those that I can by editing the image name. - List of pages is now down to about 62 from 120 something. -- Matroc (talk) 04:03, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Down to 18 articles that need to be checked - some errors also include: image=image= image=File: no extension on image name - recently added .tif images to check and broke apart the routebox template to get images found there... Also some of the images can be found in Wikipedia but not in Commons - That's it for me at this moment -- Matroc (talk) 05:39, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

It is a little difficult to find the listing with a broken image link in an article, is there a way to have it highlighted the same way we have done with url dead links and phone format with the ErrorHighlighter preference? --Traveler100 (talk) 07:34, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

  • Not all articles with listing redlinked images appear in the Pages with broken file links -- came accross 1 article with 3 such images -- (maybe because they havn't been touched since various changes in maps? -- Matroc (talk) 19:12, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Completed except for several User pages and 1 talk page - Matroc (talk) 04:52, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Cities to usable[edit]

Here's something to do if you're bored/looking at random Wikivoyage articles. If you're looking at a city article that is tagged outline, check if there's information for how to get there, at least one attraction, one place to eat and one place to sleep, each with directions/contact information. If the article has all these, tag it as usable.

Unlike other statuses and articles where you have to read the article more carefully, this takes only a few seconds. About half (13,633) of all the articles we have (27,340) are outline cities, and I stumble upon outlines that can be upgraded to usable almost every day, so it means there's a lot of them left and you can help out. ϒpsilon (talk) 08:26, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Wikivoyage:City guide status is your reference for city articles. What ϒpsilon says is accurate, but I would also say that the requirements for Usable status include the requirements for Outline status, so it should also have an introductory paragraph (or at least sentence) and a standard city article template (basically as shown at Wikivoyage:Quick small city article template or other quick city article templates, or at the very least one with at least Get in, Get around, See, Eat and Sleep sections). Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:46, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
Just check the listing are still valid first though, some places could have closed since the article was created. And if you want to add a little more quality to the article take a look at these suggestions and go to the next level. --Traveler100 (talk) 12:29, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
Some time ago I did that for (at the time) all outline districts... I also tried it for outline airports, but they are a somewhat tougher nut due in part to WV:sleepthere and the decision not to list hotels outside airport grounds... Generally reducing the number of outline articles is a very worthwhile and good idea and perhaps the single most efficient way to improve google ranks readership and writership... Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:28, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
As a suggestion, pick a region. Here is an example how to get a list: outline that could be usable by region. --Traveler100 (talk) 12:34, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

Spanish phrasebook: Edits on WV/sv[edit]

User NeoMaps did some edits on the Spanish phrasebook on WV/sv I reverted it, like we did on German Wikivoyage. I was told you guys have some problems with the User as well. But I am not sure what to do on Swedish Wikivoyage. He reverted it. But I can not need one more edit war. I am admin on WV/sv (maybe the only left). But would like to hear your opinion. Is one of you guys more familiar with Spanish language. Are his edits over there acceptable? What can I do? -- DerFussi 15:19, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

DerFussi - I would advise you to indefinitely ban the user as has already been done here and on es:. The consensus is that NeoMaps is a sockpuppet of Turbo8000, a user who was globally locked some time ago as one of many sockpuppets of a very prolific crosswiki vandal. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:41, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
OK, done. Thanks. -- DerFussi 20:10, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
New actions of NeoMaps (BAICAN WWW)? Just saw these edits -- DerFussi 16:27, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Esino Lario on home page?[edit]

Hello. See my comment here? Thank you :) --Elitre (talk) 20:30, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. The quick answer to your question is No, but I also replied with links at Talk:Main Page. The usual place to discuss possible Destination of the Month/Off the Beaten Path nominations is at Wikivoyage talk:Destination of the month candidates, but in any case, Usable articles are not eligible for a feature. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:09, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
With Wikimania about to start it is far to short notice to bring Esino Lario up to guide standard and feature it on the main page. However Wikimania 2017 is in Montreal in August 2017. Maybe we should consider improving either Montreal or Montreal/Downtown with a view to one of these being DOTM in August next year. AlasdairW (talk) 20:29, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Compact Language Links enabled in this wiki today[edit]

Screenshot of Compact Language Links interlanguage list

Compact Language Links has been available as a beta-feature on all Wikimedia wikis since 2014. With compact language links enabled, users are shown a much shorter list of languages on the interlanguage link section of an article (see image). Based on several factors, this shorter list of languages is expected to be more relevant for them and valuable for finding similar content in a language known to them. More information about compact language links can be found in the documentation.

From today onwards, compact language links has been enabled as the default listing of interlanguage links on this wiki. However, using the button at the bottom, you will be able to see a longer list of all the languages the article has been written in. The setting for this compact list can be changed by using the checkbox under User Preferences -> Appearance -> Languages

The compact language links feature has been tested extensively by the Wikimedia Language team, which developed it. However, in case there are any problems or other feedback please let us know on the project talk page. It is to be noted that on some wikis the presence of an existing older gadget that was used for a similar purpose may cause an interference for compact language list. We would like to bring this to the attention of the admins of this wiki. Full details are on this phabricator ticket. Thank you. On behalf of the Wikimedia Language team:--Runa Bhattacharjee (WMF) (talk) 07:45, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

I do not like this feature, nor do I understand the need. On Wikivoyage the language list was short anyway (and on Wikipedia, the long lists are fascinating – I sometimes click odd languages just for fun).
For short lists of languages, those are presented exactly as they were before. For pages available in more languages, the tool provides aids such as flexible search or surfacing your usual choices. The purpose of the tool is to make it easy to find their usual languages for users that often switch between the languages they speak. Finding your language in some articles not only takes time from our users but may prevent them to discover that content is available in their language (e.g., speakers of small languages for which content is not usually available and when it is their language is in the middle of a long list since the topics are covered by many other languages). In our tests we've found the proposer selector makes it easier to find the content in your language. You can still click on odd languages, they will be just easier to access the next time. --Pginer-WMF (talk) 09:58, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
Choosing a few languages makes people less likely to click the others – even less likely if the algorithm for choosing languages is good. This makes people miss the would-be-next language, which often could be relevant (I know about five languages well enough to produce simple text, but counting related languages I can probably get some information out of more than a dozen).
This is one of the aspects we focused on when testing the feature with users. For the people we tested with it was clear that there were more languages available than those shown initially, and finding them was easier than scanning a list of potentially hundred of options. Having the option you are looking for in the middle of a long list with mixed scripts is not going to help much with discovery.--Pginer-WMF (talk) 10:12, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
For me personally this makes using iw more difficult. I have to activate a popup just to see what the other languages are, and to choose one I have to "search" by continent (with most languages doubled; scrolling needed). I though it was easy to opt out, but I cannot find where (and the possibility is not mentioned in the posting above).
A specific issue over here is that choice of language very much depends on the article: I will surely check versions in the local language of any destination where I am going, even when I do not understand a word (as in Chinese), and try to find articles in comprehensible regional languages. I think such considerations are not made when choosing what languages to show.
--LPfi (talk) 11:54, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
There is a ticket to consider the languages that appear in the content as another criteria for language selection. This could help in the scenario you mention, since an article about China is likely to contain some Chinese word even in the English article giving a hint that Chinese is relevant in this context. --Pginer-WMF (talk) 10:19, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
I don't like this non-feature. I can't find anywhere to set my preferred set of languages - I could see some value if I could restrict the list to those languages that I know a little of. I just tried it on Warsaw and Polish was not one of the languages shown. If you want to improve the list of languages, adding the article size (or a sort by size feature) would be much more useful.
You can customise the default list of languages. Since previous choices is the highest priority criteria, you just need to navigate to your preferred languages and those will be remembered for future use. That is, just using the feature configures it to better fit your preferences. --Pginer-WMF (talk) 10:02, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
I have just opted out of this - by deselecting the "Use a compact language list, with languages relevant to you." at the bottom of the Appearance tab in Preferences. AlasdairW (talk) 22:15, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
This is a step in the wrong direction, maybe makes sense in Wikipedia where there are many small articles with same topic on many languages but for Wikivoyage if the location is on a number of language sites it will in most case be long enough in length to handle the list. Switch off in preference only improves things for those who know about it, can this be switched off for all readers? --Traveler100 (talk) 05:04, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
Not a fan of this too. I don't see why the list of languages has to be shortened. It ain't broke. Gizza (roam) 12:13, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
It's certainly more challenging on pages with dozens or even 100+ links, and people especially at non-English sites do complain about having trouble finding the 'obvious' interlanguage links in a sea of mostly irrelevant ones. I've sent an e-mail message to Runa, to make sure that she sees your comments. However, Wikimania's underway, so I'm making no promises about how soon she will be able to read it (much less to reply). If you've not worked with Runa before, then I think you'll be happy; the Language team in general is responsive and easy to talk to. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 01:57, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
Thank you Whatamidoing (WMF). Hello, thanks for the feedback. We did indeed discuss in the team about the already short language list in Wikivoyage and as it has already been mentioned in this thread, compact links are (at the moment) expected to be more effective for projects like Wikipedia than Wikivoyage. Nevertheless, the expectation is that Wikivoyage being a still growing project may soon add more languages and users will be able to use the compact links for easier navigation across languages. I am taking this feedback to the team for discussion. Thanks again for the feedback and please do feel free to contact me directly or on our project talk page.--Runa Bhattacharjee (WMF) (talk) 02:31, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
Where is the problem? Proposal for alternative solution: --Traveler100 (talk) 04:18, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
  1. If list shorter then length of article do not compact.
  2. Highlight language(s) selected in reader's browser preferences plus language based on IP address of visitor to site.
@Runa Bhattacharjee (WMF): That's a very naive expectation given the fact that 7 out of 17 language versions of Wikivoyage have zero contributors with 100+ edits/month. --Alexander (talk) 05:20, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
Apart from being unnecessary on Wikivoyage, I am finding having to scroll down through the oversized pop-up window very annoying. How can we by default switch this feature off? --Traveler100 (talk) 17:29, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
I am trying to do this for Russian Wikivoyage, but it looks like the developers strongly oppose such requests. I would be grateful if more people write on Phabricator what they think about this useless functionality. --Alexander (talk) 17:39, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
This Phabricator site not exactly open and user friendly to non experts is it. Looks like a good way of alienating contributors to wiki sites. --Traveler100 (talk) 17:54, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
Agreed I don't really like Compact Language Links myself and I think they discourage interwiki work. (I have to admit that I am slightly ignorant of how they are sorted though--for instance, someone who knows Catalan may well know French and Spanish, so it would make sense to have those always appear but is very unlikely to know Swahili, so it's more okay if that disappears from the list.) In the case of voy, v:, and n: it's not really necessary to compact these because there will be so few interwiki links anyway. I understand with almost 300 editions of w: and over 100 of b: and wikt: (almost 100 for q:) but even then, I don't really like the idea that much. —Justin (koavf)TCM 18:07, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
The preference
Hello, if it's inconvenient, the feature can be disabled by anyone by using the checkbox under User Preferences -> Appearance -> Languages (see the screenshot). You will find more information about how the languages are being selected in the FAQ page and also how, over time it gets improved to show more relevant suggestions. The project page has more useful information about the tool. Thanks, --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 11:47, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
That is fine for the regular users who are in the know, but not for the causal visitor/reader. Issue is why change the default behaviour to something worse that it was before. --Traveler100 (talk) 14:51, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Current situation[edit]

After making some noise (see here) we managed to elicit response from the language team, and eventually they decided to switch this feature off at Russian Wikivoyage until further evaluation (whatever it means). I don't know how general this solution can be, but, apparently, one has to make noise in order to achieve something. --Alexander (talk) 19:41, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Missing voyagers[edit]

At Wikipedia they've apparently compiled a list of "missing Wikipedians" with editors who haven't edited in a while. While I don't think it's necessary for us to create such a list of "missing voyagers", there are undoubtedly many voyagers who have been active editors in the past but have now stopped (or almost stopped) editing, for instance Sertmann, Cacahuate and Sapphire (and probably many others). How about a little talk page message campaign asking such users if they're OK and hoping they'd have time and feel interested to come back to editing WV at some point? --ϒpsilon (talk) 17:21, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

As long as this sort of thing doesn't turn into an effort to spam or cajole past contributors then I'm all for it. Maybe rather than a "missing contributors" list we could do something similar to a barnstar, but with more of a "we miss you" tone? I'd love to see even a temporary return of some of our past prolific contributors, but everyone has their reasons for leaving so we should be very careful that we aren't doing anything that would even remotely be construed as an attempt to guilt someone into making additional contributions. -- Ryan • (talk) • 17:55, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
With attention duly paid to the caveats Ryan outlined above, I couldn't help but that Peter's name was the first that came to my mind. It would certainly be a long shot to convince him to come back, if there's even any way to get in touch with him, but it's perhaps worth noting that we've long since solved the problem that drove him away in the first place. He's sorely missed. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:19, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
I think its worth to contact the users and inform about our recent developments. I should still have Peter's phone number. I was not involved in any way here because too busy with the German version (still don't know what happened here at all). I could try to get in touch with him. I should still have Sapphire's contact information as well. Always wanted to have a drink with him. I did the same years ago with some German users. I got some answers, but not too many....-- DerFussi 06:10, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
Agreed, we shouldn't be too intrusive. Something like a barnstar sounds like a good idea. Many users probably get an e-mail when something is written on their talk page, also, if you're active on any other WMF project you nowadays get a message whenever something is written on your talk page in some other WMF project.
I'd be cautious with using "e-mail this user" or calling them, especially users that explicitly have stated they've retired from WV. I was more thinking of people who may have had so much else to do that they've forgotten about WV. ϒpsilon (talk) 08:59, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Will the Brexit have travel consequences?[edit]

Now I don't want to start a political debate here, but I think it is fair to say that the Brexit came as a surprise to many. If I read the news correctly, it could well take as much as two years until the UK actually legally leaves the EU and Britain never having been a member of Schengen or the Euro already reduces the impact on things we cover in our articles somewhat, but what other consequences will there be? Does the Brexit mean duty free shops on both sides of the Channel Tunnel? Will there be a different border regime? What about the "work" section of the United Kingdom article? I hope that within the next weeks and months we can get answers and integrate them into our articles to keep the coverage up to date. Hobbitschuster (talk) 08:35, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

All good questions, but we are in unchartered waters and nobody knows what the outcome will be at the end.
There is currently free movement of EU citizens into non-Schengen countries such as the UK, and that is something that could potentially change (i.e. more formal passport controls than there are today). Quite likely there won't be a UK to 'get in' to anymore, but rather an independent England physically surrounded by EU countries. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:55, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
The most immediate effect for travellers is on the exchange rate. According to the BBC (link may only work for UK readers) the pound was worth US$1.50 just after the polls closed last night (10pm) when commentators were predicting a "remain" vote, then fell sharply after that reaching a low of $1.33 at 5.28am. I expect that there will be further unpredictable (to the traveller) swings over the coming months. The movements may be increased by political uncertainty (another referendum in Scotland?, new Prime Minister etc). It will probably be more than 2 years before the UK actually leaves the EU (there is a 2 year period for negotiations, which starts when formal notice is served). AlasdairW (talk) 15:50, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
For now I guess we could only put up a box warning of increased incidence of Boris in the media and perhaps advisory to travellers that his is not a hairstyle normally found acceptable in most circumstances in the UK. PrinceGloria (talk) 19:07, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
"If approached by a Boris in the wild, identifiable by its manic behavior and shaggy blonde covering, drop to a fetal position and cover your head until the Boris tires and retreats to a safe distance." PerryPlanet (talk) 19:43, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
Americans will still want to travel to the UK because the Boris bouffant is not as bad as the Donald 'do. Nurg (talk) 02:30, 25 June 2016 (UTC)
So considering it is a cheaper time to visit the UK how about a new Collaboration of the Month: Wikivoyage:England Expedition or Wikivoyage:Wales Expedition? --Traveler100 (talk) 12:37, 25 June 2016 (UTC)
Along the lines of "get there before it becomes impossible"? Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:19, 25 June 2016 (UTC)
Do not misunderstand what this is about, it is a dislike of controls from Brussels and uncontrolled unskilled immigration. Many people from EU counties visit non EU countries, UK will become one more on this list. And anyway there is already passport control into mainland UK no matter where you come from. --Traveler100 (talk) 16:39, 25 June 2016 (UTC)
I thought the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland is/was open and has been for some time? Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:16, 25 June 2016 (UTC)
yes it is, that's why I said mainland. But that may have to change, will have to see what is negotiated. --Traveler100 (talk) 20:40, 25 June 2016 (UTC)
So to ask again, how was travel from Dublin to Belfast, from Dublin to London and from Belfast to London treated until now and how may it be treated if and when the UK (including Northern Ireland) leaves the EU? What if due to some convoluted reasons the UK leaves but decides to treat the land border different from its sea borders? Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:53, 25 June 2016 (UTC)
The UK and RI have had a separate arrangement on simplified border procedures and common ones for those arriving from the mainland longer than many of the current European treaties, essentially ever since Ireland became an independent country. Moreover, British and Irish citizens are not treated as foreigners in either country - it was first a legacy of the previous legal arrangements pertaining to both being parts of the same country, and later actually expressly legalized. PrinceGloria (talk) 21:11, 25 June 2016 (UTC)
So in essence the two countries had what could - for lack of a better term - be described as a "mini Schengen" that is of course separate and mutually exclusive to the Schengen treaty and different in some details. However, given that one of the main driving forces behind the leave campaign seems to have been to get rid of EU rules for free movement of people, it may become more difficult to move from Ireland (EU) to Northern Ireland (soon not to be EU) and work there for example. As of June 1st Irish people could work in London just like English people, right? I cannot even imagine what happens if that changes, not least because of the sheer amount of people possibly affected by this and the very delicate situation in Northern Ireland that seems to have been pacified at least in part due to the EU membership of both the UK and the Republic of Ireland. Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:23, 25 June 2016 (UTC)
I think in the coming months and years you're going to see this decision spiral out in a number of confusing and unexpected ways, given the dense tangle of negotiations and regulations that were put in place over the years of the UK's membership in the EU, all of which now have to be unraveled and renegotiated. All we can do now as Wikivoyagers is to keep an eye on developments and update our content as necessary. PerryPlanet (talk) 21:38, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

Tracking category for new Quickbar[edit]

Hello everyone,

I went through all articles in the main namespace which use {{Quickbar}} and removed the old parameters (the location maps were preserved). In order to add missing information to Wikidata I created a tracking category: Category:Quickbar with missing information. Please help with adding the information to Wikidata. Contact me if you have questions.

Warm regards, -- T.seppelt (talk) 13:13, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Flixbus buying out Megabus' mainland Europe services[edit]

According to this press release, Flixbus is in the process of buying out Megabus' route network in continental Europe. Apparently Megabus will keep its routes in the United Kingdom, though. If and when the Megabus brand will invariably be subsumed into the Flixbus brand (just as happened to the "Meinfernbus" brand previously) we should change our articles accordingly. However, thus far there seem to be no major changes if I read the press release right. Prices will likely rise as Megabus has (at least in Germany) tried to undercut Flixbus prices and the market domination of Flixbus will only get worse. Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:16, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Travel guide showdown[edit]

See here It's Fodor's versus Lonely Planet. May be of interest to some of us. —Justin (koavf)TCM 03:01, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for linking this. Yes, it's very interesting. I'll quote a portion that because of the length of the article should easily fall within fair use:
Neither of these will do you wrong when you travel, but each is better suited for a certain type of traveler. Lonely Planet throws more information at you than you’ll ever need, which is a good thing because you’re getting a ton of bang for your buck. Even though Lonely Planet guides can be more expensive than Fodor’s guides, they’re still worth every penny. But that massive amount of information also means you have to comb through it all yourself to plan your trip. It tells you places you should go to, but it doesn’t always show you. So think of it more as a list of suggestions and not an essay exploring the wonders of various corners of the world. If you’re okay with that, Lonely Planet is the best pick, period.
Fodor’s guides, on the other hand, are a more curated experience and better suited for the “show me the way” type traveler. And they’re a lot more fun to actually read. Their books have less information overall when compared to the exhaustive amount found in the Lonely Planet guides, but it’s information you can live without (or could find somewhere online).
So which kind of traveler do we try to appeal to on Wikivoyage, and what kind of writing are we cultivating? It would seem that we are more commonly addressing ourselves to somewhat adventurous independent travelers and leaving people who want to know more details about attractions and places to do more research on Wikipedia and other sites, but there are some very clear exceptions, especially among Star articles and the very best and most complete of the Guide-level articles (I'm thinking, for example, of the Buffalo guides, the Chicago guides, the Singapore guide, some of the guides to hiking and hiking spots in Israel). As for writing, I think that Wikivoyage:Tone is suggesting writing that's less dry and more fun to read, but again, most of our articles aren't there, at least not yet.
What do the rest of you think? What kind(s) of traveler should we have in mind while writing and editing? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:34, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
I personally try to write for the traveller who wants a deeper level of information and a more holistic understanding of the destination than you'll find in either LP or Fodor's - not just what there is to see and do, but what its significance is in the grand scheme of the place. But I think it would be unrealistic to expect every author to come up with something as expansive as the Buffalo articles. I think the definitive answer to your question is that the nature of the wiki format is such that trying to corral all editors into writing in the same tone or with the same type of reader in mind would be a fool's errand. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:55, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
You're right about it being a fool's errand, but it's still good to talk about what our orientation and purpose(s) are. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:58, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek: I don't contribute here as much as I would like but in my mind, I think of our guides being very exhaustive and complete ideally since the difference between a fairly brisk guide to (e.g.) Indianapolis versus a thorough and complete one is honestly not that great: the difference between a 30-minute and a three-hour read, maybe? If our guides were truly exhaustive and someone were just going to a specific locale then it wouldn't be a problem. Someone who wants to visit the United States will, of course have a lot to pour through but that's inevitable. —Justin (koavf)TCM 04:46, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
I gave some thought about what style I've used in the articles I've contributed most to, and then decided to write an "Understand" section for the article about the East Village, where I live. I think it will need subtitles and also should have more names of relevant buildings, which should be bolded. I fear someone may find it too detailed for a travel guide, though, and it's possible that it may have a bit too much of a resident's view. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:23, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek: If you mean this current revision, that is not too detailed: for most readers that would only take a few minutes—a lot could be gained but altogether very little lost. —Justin (koavf)TCM 06:34, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
Yes, that's what I mean. I added a few subtitles and some bolding, but I expect it to be edited some. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:42, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
That's an interesting question. I try to aim for somewhere in between LP and Fodors, probably closer to LP as I like to have a pretty complete list of listings if I know the place well. That said, the travel guides I buy have changed as my life has. As I've moved from backpacking on my own to travelling with kids, there are fewer LPs and more Fodors/Rick Steves -- I just don't have the time now to read something something as in-depth as LP (plus young children change the focus of attractions). I agree with Andre that the wiki format will make it difficult to corral editors, but I also think the wiki format and our policies combine to make our guides more about listings and figuring out what appeals to you. I think curation implies leaving some things out and/or ranking attractions, etc. and it would be difficult to come to achieve consensus on that. -Shaundd (talk) 23:27, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
"I think curation implies leaving some things out and/or ranking attractions, etc. and it would be difficult to come to achieve consensus on that."
It would be difficult and, more importantly, IMO an extremely bad precedent to set. It's very important to me as a Wikivoyage editor that writers not be straitjacketed into working within an overbearing formal structure - forced to choose between a range of preselected attractions or types of attractions, counseled to stay away from anything "unimportant" at the expense of omitting worthwhile but off-the-beaten-path gems that are precisely the kind of things we could use to differentiate ourselves from other travel guides. I think our policies provide just the right amount of structure to keep the whole project from descending into anarchy while preserving editorial freedom as much as possible, and I think the current approach to places with an abundance of coverage - geographical subdivision rather than curation - is pretty close to ideal. I would be extremely dismayed if we started taking a tack like you described above.
-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:42, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
Well, a propos ranking sights, look at how I structured Siena#See. I think that structure for Siena is completely obvious and unassailable, and that we shouldn't be afraid to use it in such situations, though they're somewhat unusual. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:38, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
Just to clarify, I wasn't advocating we take a Fodor's approach and curate our content more. I like completeness in a guide -- so we don't omit worthwhile off-the-beaten-path gems -- but it makes it important to write and structure the guide so large amounts of info can be easily digested. Our best guides do this but many don't (yet). I'm not so against ranking. I often find the Top xx lists useful. Even if not everything on the list suits what I want to see or do, if I only have 2-3 days in a large city I find they're a good way of breaking through large lists of attractions. What Ikan pointed to in Siena works, too IMO. Anyway, I'm not pushing for a change. I think the structure of WV favours completeness (LP-style guides) and we should play to our strengths. -Shaundd (talk) 07:12, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
It looks like we are in agreement. If I were in Siena, I would add more points of interest to the "See/Secondary sights" section, but from New York and 18 years removed from my last trip there, I don't have an easy time adding much more (maybe a loggia here or there). Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:35, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
I would say we should be rather exhaustive, having most points that are of interest to travellers, like LP. On the other hand, our Itineraries should guide the traveller like Fodors. See for instance Three days in Singapore which has your schedule decided for you and tells you exactly where to go, how, what to look at, and what to eat. Syced (talk) 05:58, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
Shaundd's comment about changing interests or needs over time interests me. This isn't exactly a vote for a particular style, but I think it might be interesting to make a list of (strictly optional!) suggestions for article content that target different types of travelers. I'm sure that we could come up with a better list, but here are some ideas I had offhand:
  • young children (a playground with public toilets?)
  • teenagers (cool gaming shop?)
  • backpackers (showers? hiking trail?)
  • wheelchair users (accessible restaurant?)
  • non-drivers (a group of hotels/restaurants/attractions within walking distance of each other? location of bike lockers?)
  • long-term visitors (laundry facilities near a recommended hotel?)
  • larger families/groups (hotel with large suites?)
  • people with restricted diets (Kosher restaurant? Vegetarian restaurant?)
I think if we had a list like this, then I might use it to come up with some ideas about what to include in articles. I probably couldn't think of something for every type of traveler, but I would probably think, "Oh, right, I should mention that this attraction has good wheelchair access (or doesn't have, which can be even more important information), and it'd be easy to add in that playground, and the directions for that restaurant should say that it's next door to that hotel..."
I think that including some content that is specifically useful for different types of travelers would be feasible for most articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:18, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
In some cities no sane person would consider the proposition of driving a fun activity and we usually say so in our "get around" section. However despite a good start at United States without a car some of our articles are indeed written with too much of a "car is the default" point of view, so we should keep that in mind. As for playgrounds... I don't really think they should be mentioned in a travel guide. Most people with children in the playground age group will want to do something else with them when on holidays. We should absolutely mention attractions that cater to them (e.g. does the theme park only have "grownup" rides or ar there some things targeted at the very young crowd?). For accessibility we might wish to include a symbol or a parameter to check in our listings. (e.g. "disabledaccess" or "wheelchairaccess" with a simple yes no question) this might not be the be all end all solution to this, but it is a quick and easy fix and does not require many words once the software is in place (please don't ask me whether the code is easy to write). In some cases it would probably make more sense to break down certain listings by category instead of / in addition to price (e.g. "Mexican" "kosher" "sausages" etc.), but I think we already do that for some cities. As for tone, I have always found LP in English a refreshing read that does not translate well into German. I fear that German WV also has a tendency to a more bureaucratic tone than English WV. And no, I don't know an easy fix... Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:02, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
I think it makes sense to list special or particularly good playgrounds. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:44, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
Certainly. I think the main reason not to mention playgrounds is that it is unclear which ones are relevant (the one that would fit between that giant museum and the hunt for somewhere to eat with children, but if you have a different itinerary, it would be another).
I think it is a very big mistake to forget those small things "you could do at home", when going abroad with small children. The small things you are used to do at home give the children comfort and a chance to relax. A 10m×10m playground can indeed save your day. I would include some such if writing an itinerary for families, but they would clutter guides on any but the smallest towns.
--LPfi (talk) 13:15, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
  • I agree that playgrounds are best for articles specific to family/travel with children. I think they would clutter and annoy people if we put them in the main city travel guide article. We have a general start-up article for Travel as a vegetarian. Vegan redirects there but is admittedly not actually addressed in the article.
I feel like handicap accessibility was brought up a long time ago and people were against it. I could be wrong but the reason might have been because it would make it difficult to make articles star articles if handicap accessibility were part of the listing templates (which would make it necessary to fill them out). I personally think it's worthwhile and would definitely be a way to set ourselves apart from other guides in a meaningful way. I would suggest though having three categories: "accessible", "not accessible", and "partially accessible" with space to explain if "partially accessible" is chosen. An article for the travel with the blind could also be useful. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 13:37, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
First, on playgrounds: Just as listings for amusement parks don't "clutter up" articles for people who want to skip them, if playgrounds are particularly special, listing only those playgrounds won't "clutter up" articles if they're set off in a clearly titled subsection. But that said, the most usual way to mention a playground or a few would be just to state that they exist, in a listing for a park.
Second, on accessibility: I strongly support mentioning this. It's hard to be thorough in including it in every listing, but that's no excuse to oppose its inclusion as a goal, in my opinion. I don't remember people opposing the mention of accessibility in previous discussions, and I'd find such opposition shocking. Perhaps what they were opposing was a specific template field for it, but I'd actually support that. I don't know how helpful I could be in contributing information, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:54, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
A non-compulsory field in the listing templates could be a good start. I do hesitate myself to put in that information without guidelines from somebody who knows the issues. There might be a ramp that is too narrow or steep or has too tight turns – if I say "yes, accessible" somebody might come in a wheelchair and get stuck (I do include such information occasionally, when I find official statements). Do we have wheelchair users among us? If not, writing guidelines for accessibility information is a quite big project, where we should involve handicap organizations (perhaps starting with some specific countries). --LPfi (talk) 09:43, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
Perhaps this is just a pet peeve of mine, but "wheelchair accessible" is a small subset of "accessible". An amusement park can be wheelchair accessible without providing the least bit of thought for access by people who are Deaf, blind, or autistic, to name just three examples. I've even seen wheelchair accessibility that makes physical access harder for people with other problems. When a long, gently sloping ramp replaces (rather than supplements) a short flight of stairs, it can be a nightmare for someone who has difficulty walking. If we want a "yes, accessible" checkbox, then it should be labeled specifically for wheelchair access.
Wheelchair access tends to be very uniform in the U.S. Pretty much, if you see a ramp with handrails in the US, you can safely assume that it's sized to accommodate standard-size wheelchairs. I was really thinking of something that goes beyond the minimum (although in some countries, even the minimum is worth noting). For example, most wheelchair-accessible toilets are required to have one grab bar, but having one on each side is better (what if you're using a wheelchair due to a stroke, and the only grab bar is on the side with your weak arm?). WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:15, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
I chose wheelchairs exactly because I think it is a well understood issue :-) If it is safe to do such assumptions in the USA, very good. But I even do not know what can be assumed in Finland or Sweden (although we tend to be good at standards). The point is that you need to have some understanding of the issue to make useful assumptions or assessments. We need guidelines for that. --LPfi (talk) 17:51, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── On playgrounds:

  • I don't see how you could usefully limit this to a travel topic for families. It's all very well if Traveling with families says "go to a playground", but that doesn't help you figure out which parks in any particular city have a playground, much less which ones could be recommended.
  • Searching for "playground" shows that the word appears in about 5% of articles right now. So I think people are already adding this (e.g., in a listing for a park, as Ikan says) when it occurs to them and it seems appropriate.
  • There is quite a bit of diversity in playgrounds around the world, and those cultural differences may be interesting to some travelers. They're almost non-existent in Chinese cities. American playgrounds tend to be part of a larger park, and there is frequently a certain sense of sameness to them. German playgrounds are small (but every neighborhood has at least one) and have equipment that would have injury lawyers lining up in the US (because "developmentally appropriate" means "sometimes, a kid is going to fall off this and break an arm"). Some UK playgrounds have paid staff ("playworker" is a real job there). I think that adding half a sentence about these differences in a listing would be lively and interesting, and thus fit with the general goal.
  • I notice that several people seem to worry about providing information for parents of young children (which need not be playgrounds; it could also be something like mentioning the (non)existence of diaper-changing areas), but nobody objected to including teen-focused entries, even though I thought my example for that was much weaker and much less universal (most teens won't care about gaming shops, but almost all young children will care about playgrounds). WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:54, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
To me, teens don't need much specifics because they usually have interests that are still compatible with regular travel. Lots of traveling teens can get excited about museums, castles, cathedrals, beaches, etc. all things we already list, as well as shopping centers and that kind of entertainment which we also list. I would think it odd and maybe even feel that the author was desperate to add content if they added a playground and talked about the slides and swings.
In my mind, a wheelchair accessibility icon would certainly have a wheelchair in it (maybe crossed out to symbolize "not accessible") and I'm not sure for partial accessibility. Certainly it would be specific to wheelchairs. Wheelchair accessible never implies that the place is hospitable towards the blind or people with any other issues. Writing about bathrooms in the city articles seems like too much information to me. I mean, if we write about the bars in the handicap stalls, we could also write about overall cleanliness, number of stalls, diaper-changing stations, nursing rooms, if they have Western and/or squat toilets, what floors the bathrooms are located on, if they have soap/towels/toilet paper... That's too much potty talk to add to each listing. You could literally write an entire new city article with only toilet information about each listing. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 15:04, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
I totally get your point on bathrooms, but I'm still not really seeing eye to eye with you on playgrounds, inasmuch as it does make sense to me to list or at least mention a particularly great or unique playground. Otherwise, for the most part, it just makes sense to mention in a park's listing that there are (x-number of) playgrounds in the park. And maybe I should start adding that for New York City parks, except that in my experience, every single one has at least one playground, so maybe that's something to mention in a single sentence in the overall New York City guide, but only if it can be confirmed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:04, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
I don't think that we need to have a lot of "potty talk" to include information that's useful to this group of travelers. For example: there's a small chain of expensive steakhouses in the US discourages people from bringing young children. They don't actually have a sign on the door that says "no children" (AFAIK; I've never been there), but they have reportedly banned highchairs. One of them is listed at Boca Raton#Splurge. We could easily say "Not a good choice for dining with young children", without going into a long list of details like whether there's a diaper-changing station in the men's room, or if they still believe that only women change diapers, or if they don't believe that diapers need changing.
Similarly, if you happen to know that an attraction has particularly good wheelchair access (or a menu in Braille, or whatever), then you can mention that in equally few words: "Menu available in Braille" or "Good access for wheelchair users". However, access doesn't always need to be explicitly stated as having any relationship to disabilities: "Climb up the slippery stone staircase, built in the 12th century, to see the view from the belfry" applies to everyone, but it still tells people with mobility impairments that it's not accessible. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:31, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Editing News #2—2016[edit]

m:User:Elitre (WMF), 17:20, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Open call for Project Grants[edit]

IEG barnstar 2.png

Greetings! The Project Grants program is accepting proposals from July 1st to August 2nd to fund new tools, research, offline outreach (including editathon series, workshops, etc), online organizing (including contests), and other experiments that enhance the work of Wikimedia volunteers. Whether you need a small or large amount of funds, Project Grants can support you and your team’s project development time in addition to project expenses such as materials, travel, and rental space.

Also accepting candidates to join the Project Grants Committee through July 15.

With thanks, I JethroBT (WMF) 15:21, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Would be nice to get a response to the question at m:Wikimedia merchandise/Design ideas#Wikivoyage Sticker. --Traveler100 (talk) 16:17, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Schengen template[edit]

Apparently the Schengen template still talks about "autumn 2015" as if it were recent news. Given that the Schengen Teamplate shows up in quite a handful of articles, this should be fixed. Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:05, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Go knock yourself out :) Template:Schengen
I don't really regard the Autumn 2015 as 'out of date', but if you can make it more relevant then so much the better. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 00:16, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
Well Fall 2015 is almost a year ago now. And apparently some of the then current suspensions of Schengen have been lifted (though I don't know if all of them and I also don't know where I could get that information)... Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:37, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

How to solve the problem wikivoyage cannot login?[edit]

When a Chinese users (zh:User:Hiokdat) login to wikivoyage , but there show " Fatal exception of type "Exception" ", And even the whole global account has a problem [6], who someone can help the fixes? Thank--Yuriy kosygin (talk) 07:11, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

There's nothing we can do about login issues from here. I suggest asking on Meta-Wiki or filing a bug report on Phabricator. Powers (talk) 17:22, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
Thank you! Has been repaired successfully, sorry to bother everyone... --Yuriy kosygin (talk) 17:47, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
Yuriy kosygin, I'm so sorry to hear that User:Hiokdat got "bit" by this bug. There was a terrible problem in the software, and it has just been fixed. About four thousand login attempts failed recently – far more than usual.
It is supposed to be working now, but, just in case, I hear that some editors were successful if they started to log in at their "home" wiki (usually the Wikipedia for your preferred language, but Special:CentralAuth will know for certain – it's marked with a "house" or a green "+" icon). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:29, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
One more thing, of more general interest: The fix involved temporarily reverting a lot of software changes. So, some recently fixed bugs have reappeared. Don't worry; they'll be re-fixed soon (expected time: today). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:31, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
I know! thank you for your reminder.--Yuriy kosygin (talk) 11:03, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Experience with new maps[edit]

Beginning to find the new maps inconvenient. The biggest issue is when you click on a location icon of a listing to get to the map (something I tend to do more on a mobile as the geo map icon is difficult to find). It only shows other listing of the same type. Not good when I click on the attraction I am at to see when restaurants are within walking distance. The project appears to have stalled are the open issues going to be addressed? --Traveler100 (talk) 07:54, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

We found the same behavior at WV/de. For a workaround, in the {{Marker}} template a show parameter is to be introduced having all possible values. To make this easier I proposed an additional show parameter for the Kartographer. --RolandUnger (talk) 14:00, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
I added a workaround to the {{Marker}} template so all markers are now shown. --RolandUnger (talk) 04:44, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
Great, thanks. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:56, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Incubator help[edit]

Please see incubator:Incubator:Community_Portal#maplink_and_imagemap Can anyone here help our fellow traveller? —Justin (koavf)TCM 23:06, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Data visualization hackathon in Seattle[edit]

Happening July 22nd at 10 am [7]. Likely useful for those involved with technical map work. Travel Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:14, 15 July 2016 (UTC)


Should there be a warning box? Given -

Sfan00 IMG (talk) 22:52, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes --Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:04, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm usually in the minority on reflecting these sorts of news events in Wikivoyage articles, but unless there is something to say that would be useful to travelers I don't think there is enough information to add a warning box yet. Wikivoyage isn't a news site, so unless someone wants to spend the next several hours updating the warning box as information becomes available it's probably better to wait until there is clear information that we can provide on how the current situation will impact travelers. -- Ryan • (talk) • 23:15, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
All flights into Istanbul are cancelled and are being turned back, which would have a strong traveler impact. US State department has also issued warnings.
I'd agree that WV is not the place for news updates, but if someone does want to place verifiable warnings (not just rumors) then it should be OK. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:20, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
Short-term flight cancellations, temporary road closures, and other events of very limited duration are typically considered out of scope for Wikivoyage - for example, if storms shut down airports in a region it would usually not be mentioned. While state department warnings are mentioned if they pertain to a danger in a region, a warning typically wouldn't be included for an event that is of a very limited duration. The current situation in Turkey may have long term ramifications for travelers, but at this point I don't think it's clear whether or not that will be the case.
I understand the desire to reflect major news events in Wikivoyage guides - for example, since it was a news event someone added a road closure warning to the Nice article, something that probably wouldn't have even merited a mention had the source of the closure not been in the news - and would just ask that if these types of warnings are going to be added that they are legitimate travel planning information, and not just a way to show that Wikivoyage editors are concerned about news events. -- Ryan • (talk) • 23:55, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Is there any merit to introducing / bringing back a "news" section / subsection maybe in cooperation with other Wikimedia projects? Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:12, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Is there any merit? In principle, probably. Do we have the manpower necessary to keep it up to date consistently? Not at this time. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:30, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
Have to agree with AndreCarrotflower, nice idea but would not work in practice. Take a look at Wikinews, a good 10 hours into the event and no mention on that new site. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:27, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Escape rooms (again)[edit]

It may be time to get an actual policy position on escape rooms as one was added to and removed from the Portland (Oregon) article recently. I really have no made up opinion either way, but it would be nice to have clarity to avoid this discussion popping up every couple of months. Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:10, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Unless I'm misunderstanding, Escape Rooms aren't any different from other attractions and thus shouldn't need a special policy. In the case of the edit you cited, I reverted that addition to the Portland article because it wasn't for a specific Escape Room business, but was instead a generic description of Escape Rooms with a link to an Escape Room directory website, and it was cut & pasted to a dozen articles. -- Ryan • (talk) • 00:24, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

What to do for listings with two phone numbers in different countries?[edit]

So I did some copy editing on San Juan del Sur recently and found a couple of listings with a Nicaraguan (+505 - nnnn nnnn ) number as well as a US one (+1-whatever). How is the right way to format them? And is there a page that spells out how to do this? Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:47, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

See Wikivoyage:Listings: "In nearly all cases only a single phone number should be included, but if multiple phone numbers are required then they should be separated with a comma - example: "+1 234-567-8901 (front-desk), +1 456-789-0123 (reservations)"." -- Ryan • (talk) • 17:08, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
Well this policy does not cover or explicitly mention numbers in / for different countries, which seem to be common in certain regions. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:14, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
Use the same system: "+505 - nnnn nnnn, +1-whatever". In terms of formatting, it doesn't matter whether the two phone numbers are front desk vs reservations telephone numbers or Nicaragua vs US ones. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:46, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Importing open license text into Wikivoyage[edit]


I've been working an easy way to import openly licensed text into Wikipedia which is now complete, I'm wondering how easy it would be to create something similar for Wikivoyage? It consists of:

  1. A Visual Editor enabled Template:Open-source attribution
  2. Simple instructions for both source editor and Visual Editor

To give an example of how this could be used, I've created a page to organise creation of en.Wikipedia articles of Biosphere Reserves using UNESCO descriptions, it uses a map fed by Wikidata to show which articles are missing. This could very easily be recreated if there was a template on Wikivoyage to use when importing open license text, here is an example of a Wikipedia article incorporating UNESCO text and using the template.


--John Cummings (talk) 21:48, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Interesting tool! In the case of Wikivoyage, where would the data come from? Wikidata does not contain the data that we need for the creation of even a stub article, I fear. I would be glad to be proved wrong though :-) Syced (talk) 11:52, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

How to import the TOC Bread-Crumbs on the banners to hewikivoyage?[edit]

TOC bread crumbs

Hi, I want to import the TOC Bread-Crumbs on the banners to hewikivoyage. What do I have to do to import it? Thanks, Dekel E (talk) 07:17, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

The banners utilize mw:Extension:WikidataPageBanner. You should be able to open a request on phabricator: to get it installed. -- Ryan • (talk) • 07:31, 19 July 2016 (UTC)