User talk:Ikan Kekek

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Hello, everybody! If you'd like to discuss anything with me, please post new topics at the bottom of the page and sign the posts with 4 tildes (the ~ key) in a row. Thanks!

Currently inactive discussions can be found at User talk:Ikan Kekek/archive. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:00, 17 June 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Malay pronunciation[edit]

I wonder if this might be a difference between the Singapore dialect and the Terengganu dialect, but at least the way I've pronounce the t, p and k in Malay has always been unaspirated. In other words, closer to the Italian pronunciation than the English pronunciation. Although of course, unlike Chinese, Malay doesn't make that distinction between aspirated and tenuis, so you'll be understood if you pronounce them the English way. The dog2 (talk) 14:29, 16 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I don't know only Terengganu dialect. Remember, I went to Sekolah Kebangsaan for 2 years, and I also spent time in K.L. The point of unaspirated consonants is that you make the shape of them at the end of a syllable without any other sound. How are you pronouncing a word like "peduli" without any aspiration? You can't, because there would be no sound. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:37, 16 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
OK, I guess it's a matter of relative aspiration then. But as an example from Chinese, the "b" in Beijing is not the same as the English b, because unlike in English, it is not voiced, so it will sound like a "p" to English speakers. That is how I usually pronounce the "p" in Malay. If you speak Italian, you'll probably notice how Italians say their p's without that strong puff of air that English speakers have. In the case of Malay, it's not an important distinction, but some Chinese dialects (Hokkien/Minnan and Teochew are examples) do make that 3-way distinction between voiced, tenuis and aspirated. The dog2 (talk) 17:05, 16 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I speak Italian, too. I will stipulate that my aspiration in "sepuluh" is not as strong as it is in "pull," but it's certainly not the same as unaspirated Ps at the ends of Malay words. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:07, 16 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Line-ups[edit]

Re: "I don't know which dialect of English uses "line-ups" for something other than groups in which one may be a criminal."

That would be us to your north. We have line-ups at Tim Hortons, for poutine, and to get beer at the curling club, but that shouldn't be in an article on Jordan. I am surprised that "line-ups" makes you think of police situations only. Ground Zero (talk) 07:57, 17 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Interesting. Maybe there are parts of the U.S. where lines are called lineups, too, but in New York, I think those are only situations in which an alleged witness looks at a group of possible suspects through a one-way glass and is asked to identify the alleged perpetrator. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:03, 17 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image density[edit]

I wonder, do you find the amount of images in Turku riverside walk suitable? For me there is one or two images per screenful (except the first), and I think the layout works well. The first screenful has the pagebanner and three images in Understand, which is plenty, but I wanted to show the character of different sections up front.

As you were critical to the amount of images in Finnish national parks, I'd like you to have a look, if you have the time. Do you find the amount excessive? I don't think I am going to remove any from this itinerary now, but it'd be good to know what I should aim for in other articles.

LPfi (talk) 19:14, 21 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for asking. Turku riverside walk looks very good; the only possible improvement I can see is maybe to add an image to "Get in." I'll have a look at the other article later. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:40, 21 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you, I really appreciate your feedback. I added an image. –LPfi (talk) 14:39, 22 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image density II[edit]

Hi Ikan, just wondering as you said that the images in Tasmanian national parks violate the image policy, are there any suggestions that you have as to which images should be removed? The article is 44.2k bytes and 34 images, and so per 1 image per 1000-2000 bytes, theoretically you could have all of them if you were to follow the bare minimum at 1 per 1000 bytes, but I'd like you to have a look when you get the time to, because I am not sure which ones to remove because they each portray a meaning and removing them would mean that some meaning may be lost. At the same time, the article should not be violating the image policy, so I agree that some of them should be removed, but this is not a high priority so take your own time. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:34, 22 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi, and thanks for the question. However, part of the problem in that article is the cells given to national parks, such that there's a lot of blank space to make a photo of every one fit in the cell, so I don't see any way to discuss images as long as that setup remains. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:48, 22 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Oh well. It is a similar issue with Canadian national parks too so I'll start a discussion soon on Talk:National parks regarding how they should be formatted. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:51, 23 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

re: Special:Diff/4416890 on Overseas Chinese cuisine[edit]

Feel free to :-). My insights were to create an article somewhat like Western food in Asia. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:05, 27 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks. I forgot what I was going to say. I'll come back to this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:58, 27 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
What I was going to say is that I doubt Singapore needs a different heading from Malaysia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:52, 27 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
to be fair, I don't really have an opinion on it. I was maybe thinking on going a bit more into detail about Singapore's Chinatown but maybe I'm biased as I've spent more time in Singapore than Malaysia, particularly in Chinatown. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:33, 27 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Singapore now has its own section (with content), so I guess it can stay as it is. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:40, 28 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Happy 100000th :-)[edit]

Butter tarts on cutting board(8293490785).jpg

Hey Ikan, I just noticed you passed your 100000th edit :-) Thank you for all the work you've put into this site, from copyediting, to dealing with touts and your contributions to destinations and topic articles too. As you're the first to have passed 100k edits (that is not traveler100bot), this is a huge milestone for the entire Wikivoyage from its advancement since the times of what is now a museum piece IMO ;-). Have a butter tart (or several). --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:56, 27 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Wow, that's astonishing. I don't know whether to feel good about this or not, but thanks for the calorie-free butter tart pictures! Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:03, 27 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Reasons for Poutine change[edit]

Hi there

I wanted to properly explain the reason why I did those changes. You see, it's about cultural credit and a history of the dish being plagiarized by anglo-canadians (despite opposition to cultural appropriation being prevalent in their society) and them getting all the credit and glory for its creation, resulting in it being associated internationally with the english-speaking nation that led to Canada as we know it instead of the nation of quebec, despite the former having nothing to do with its creation. It's also about a possible double-standard, as I'm certain the national dish of Scotland would be presented here as Scottish dish (and not as an english/british dish) and a national dish of the Sapmis as a Sapmi dish (and not a Norwegian or Finnish one) out of respect and simple accuracy for viewers wishing to get an idea and not getting confused between two largely different cultures.

But probably the most important reason is to prevent confusion to viewers on wikivoyage, as said earlier. When you see "Canadian culture" and "Québécois culture", you rightfully expect different things, different travel experiences. So when you want a Québécois dish or an (anglo) Canadian dish (whatever that even exists), you shouldn't be confused as to what is what, that's the goal of this wiki : to make travel planning (or travel window shopping) an ease based on what you want to experience.

Also, the rest of the page presented it as quebecois, so it's about consistency. If it's the "where it originated from" sentence pose a problem, let's remove it to avoid redundancy, the "Quebecois dish" in the first sentence already saying it out loud. It's simple innocent respect and accuracy, that's all.

Have a wonderful day --166.62.226.25 16:14, 30 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It was clear what your motivation was, and I even have some sympathy with it, to a point (as I'm not sure what you really intend by emphasizing Quebec as a "nation"), but I don't agree with your conclusions. Canada is not an English-speaking country; it's a bilingual country. Anyway, I think none of this is travel-related. I suggest you make your argument on the talk page of the fast food article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:21, 30 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

On the contrary, it is quite travel-related, read again my second paragraph. Not doing these changes is misleading those who wishes a québécois experience. And not acknowledging the double-standard is just showing how all of this is unfair and not respecting the consistency in logic this wiki demand across all its pages.

Since you insisted on expressing your point of view regarding non-travel stuff, I'll express mine for fairness. On paper it is bilingual, in reality, behind the shinny happy facade, it is not and those that speak french like Québécois get the short end of the stick in front of quebec-bashing and rampant anti-french language sentiments, personal experience here (really personal, that's why I'm, to be frank, a bit offended right now by what I perceive to be denial of the existence of these things). The "Canadian identity" (whatever that is, considering what Canada brags about being its distinct national identity was 90% stolen from Quebecois culture, from lumberjacks, to maple leafs as a symbol, to national anthems, to nearly all maple syrup production, to traditional clothes, to modern ice hockey, to cinema, to architectural styles...to poutine and even the term "canadian" itself ; canadiana is in reality québecaia, a big imperialist steal with an english crown on top of it) was politically and socially built and managed by english Canada, not Quebec (so much that there's a term for it, the RoC or "Rest of Canada" to design what's not Quebec as a socio-political block or "two solitudes" as it is funnily known in the RoC), so THAT's why I said it being the anglocanadian "nation" which led to modern Canada as it is perceived at home and outside : it's a simple historical fact, nothing political in it, bilingualism wasn't even official until the late 60s and the constitution itself is to this day legally valid in english only. Nation and country are two different things : there are countries with multiple recognized nations, like the UK, Ethiopia, Russia and Canada. Wikivoyage respectfully acknowledged the existence of these nations as equals to those that got their nation-state by allowing their adjectives to be used in priority, why not Quebec?

What I was intending by emphazing Quebec was the due right to existence under its own name, something the whole world can't seem to do by canadawashing the identity of great Quebecois figures, sites and overall culture (Wikipédia being also one main exemple, in french or in english). Respect, is that too much to ask?

Finally, yeah, good idea, I'll go make a point on the talk page. Thank you for the idea and for the sympathy. --166.62.226.25 19:26, 30 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sure thing; we'll have a discussion there. I would have to think First Nations peoples would have something to say about what was stolen from whom, but besides, the idea that almost everything in Canada is stolen from the Quebecois is a little strange to a fan of Cape Breton fiddling, and I think people in British Columbia would find that kind of claim puzzling. Don't get me wrong; I speak pretty good French when in practice (though from time spent in France) and have visited Quebec City and Montreal and love them (and if I had to go into exile, I'd love the opportunity to live in Montreal if it presented itself to me, though I doubt it would), so I have no dog in this fight but have to wonder whether bending in one direction or the other is really being fair. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:40, 30 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
As fair as undoing centuries of oppression and attempts at eradicating our very identity as a distinct people "without culture or without history" to quote someone important whose vision would become the blueprint for modern canada in that regard. Canada as we now know it was not just built under the oppression of our Indigenous historic brothers, but ourselves and anyone that speaks french too. I appreciate your appreciation of Quebec and french but that's your personal experience and, sadly, you're in the minority. Trust me, I've seen seen or heard so many crappy things, including directly at me, that it made me an advocate for Quebec independence when I was beforehand a hardcore oh Canada federalist just a few years earlier, being able to make someone turn 180 degrees like that need some serious stuff.
I say "Stolen" because it isn't usual cultural fusion as equals, the same kind that created all national cultures in Europe and Asia (as was the case of the québécois culture that was born out of one of those willing fusions; the franco-indigenous alliance, where economy, rather positive views outside the Iroquois, war comradry and proximity of the "habitants", those non-nobles that were born or attached to Quebec rather than France during New France, to the Indigenous people influenced a lot the culture and minds of the future québécois away from France to the anger of the shocked catholic church) but plagiarism (having one culture taking credit for something they took from another culture, aka stealing, to the point people buy it and say "canadian" when talking about things Québec). Québécois culture proudly point out the indigenous origins of the elements that were integrated into it like raquettes, kayaks, mocassins or maple syrup (notice I said majority of the CURRENT PRODUCTION of maple syrup, not maple syrup by itself in my previous comment), no one here think otherwise, no plagiarism, proper credit gets where it should. It's not to say either that the european settlers didn't create original things of their own, just that no culture is born out of a vaccuum and cultural fusion and sharing should be celebrated as they create new nations, just like in Europe or Asia. And it's not like your country doesn't have potential for a great unified national culture (like with that Cape Breton fiddling, best island ever btw), you just don't try it, instead its advertised and internationally recognized as as such: Toronto (aka New York lite), Queen, mooses and beavers, less and less brands, stereotypes (the lumberjack and modern ice hockey one being stolen, correct word, from Quebecois culture), US carbon copy stuff plus indigenous stuff. Prince Edward Island, Cape Breton Island and Newfoundland are close to Québec in terms of having nationalistic distinct things from anyone else (just being a hub for outside cultures doesn't count as "distinct").
My problem is that what is québécois culture is not recognized as such internationally but under the annoying and uncalled for label "canadian" or the exonym "french-canadian", allowing the english canada that identify as such ("canadian") to take all credit and glory for itself saying it did it, aka plagiarism, it would be like Americans saying they invented pizza and everyone buying it, reffering to it as an "american" dish. Why do you have such a problem allowing ONE word to be changed to respect the existence of a people without voice? I guess its a thing only someone from a minority (Québécois are a minority) could understand. Anyway, can we move on fresh to the talk page? Each answer drain me away from actually starting it.

--166.62.226.25 22:23, 30 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

See what other people think. I do sympathize with you, to a point (as an American, I want Canada to remain strong and a single country, because with all your imperfections, you are a good example for us in so many ways, but of course I feel you on your points about derogation and discrimination), but I really question how much of this is travel-related. I also think pizza wouldn't be a good analogy, because it comes from Italy, but we do very much talk about New York pizza, Chicago deep-dish pizza, etc., etc. I think better analogies would be all the regional foods in the U.S. that are best in their areas of origin but enjoyed throughout the country, such as barbecue. Also, think about this: how many Americans think French fries are really American, although they originate from Belgium? In effect, though, the way we eat them here, without mayonnaise but usually with ketchup, is non-Belgian. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:47, 30 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Did you notice the photo of poutine on that page, with the caption "Poutine, Quebec's contribution to the fast food scene" and the description of poutine under "typical dishes" that begins "Poutine is a Québécois regional dish (also occasionally seen elsewhere in Canada and, increasingly, in the far northern tier of the United States)"? I think we're covered, really. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:05, 30 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
EXACTLY. That was one of my argument. So, in the name of consistancy, I demand at once my culture be respected, the article itself does it once, proving me right, I shall extend it in the entire page, thank you. Objection overruled.
Also, the pizza was just an hypothetical "what if" exemple for the sake of an exemple for you to understand, not a reality. Origins are important.
Don't put me ever again with that maple-leaf empire I want nothing to do with. If it doesn't stay strong after our destiny gives us the state we rightfully deserve in the name of history, society and culture, that's its problem if we do all the work. Rejecting the right of people to rule themselves, rejecting their very existence as a distinct people and keeping them submitted in the name of petty geopolitics is called imperialism and its disgusting, thank you. Didn't you USA once celebrated heroes that fought for your distinct people's independence and later the right of people around the world to rule themselves during the World Wars and the 90s?
We're covered indeed, I'll do the change, reappropriate the dish of my people like the article already partially did. Goodnight. 166.62.226.25 00:07, 31 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You need consensus to do so, so I again suggest you start a thread on the fast food article's talk page, and the history of this country includes a civil war. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:42, 31 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Palace openings for Hari Raya Aidilfitri[edit]

Just wondering if you know if this is held in all Malaysian states. I know that the Sultan of Johor hosts does host one, but I'm not sure if you ever went to any hosted by the Sultan of Terengganu. The dog2 (talk) 02:36, 5 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I didn't; I was busy celebrating with friends in my village, 25 miles away from Kuala Terengganu. I'd guess so, but I don't know. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:14, 5 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Delete[edit]

@Ikan Kekek, please delete my subpages along with their corresponding talk pages listed here Category:Speedy deletion candidates 2006nishan178713t@lk 08:56, 6 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Done. Next time, please don't create talk pages only to request their deletion; it causes more strain on the hands of whomever deletes them.
Best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:01, 6 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Fried Vietnamese spring rolls in America[edit]

I don't know if the places I went to are Vietnamese or Vietnamese-American restaurants, but some of them are located within Vietnamese neighbourhoods. But everytime I've ordered fried spring rolls, they are always wrapped in wheat flour sheets like the type used for Chinese spring rolls, and not rice paper. The only time I've had the authentic version made with rice paper in the U.S. is at more expensive Vietnamese restaurants. The dog2 (talk) 22:03, 16 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

New York isn't really strong in Vietnamese restaurants, but I remember descriptions of all these kinds of things being rice- and not wheat-based (and not in expensive restaurants), and that's certainly how they seemed to me. But it seems like a really minor point in an article about Vietnamese cuisine. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:30, 16 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
OK, maybe it differs between different parts of the US then. I remember that Vietnamese food in New York wasn't particularly outstanding, at least compared to the ones I've had in Australia or California. Interesting that the Vietnamese deep fried spring rolls in New York are authentic then, because the ones in Chicago are as I described, using a Chinese-style wrapping instead, unless I go to a more expensive restaurant. Unfortunately, I didn't have spring rolls in California, but in the ones I had in Australia were authentic too. For the non-fried spring rolls, I've also noticed that in Australia, you have to roll them yourself, and they give you the rice paper, hot water and filling separately, while in Chicago, they're usually served to you already rolled. The dog2 (talk) 02:26, 17 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
We often have to roll them. I don't have loads and loads of experience eating Vietnamese food here, because as I said, it is not very strong here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:47, 17 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Mariupol[edit]

To my knowledge, Mariupol was under the control of the Donetsk People's Republic when it declared independence in 2014, and the Azov Battalion fought a bitter war with them to reclaim it for the Ukrainian government, and made Mariupol their main base. So they had already been heavily bombed by Ukrainian forces previously before the Russian invasion. An I have in fact seen videos of ethnic Russians from Mariupol cursing the Ukrainian military for using them as human shields. So I won't be surprised if in Mariupol, the ethnic Russians are loyal to Russia and the ethnic Ukrainians are loyal to Ukraine. And there was also a massacre of ethnic Russians by the Ukrainian military in a theatre in Odessa because those ethnic Russians were opposed to the Euromaidan Revolution, so I won't be surprised if the ethnic Russians in Odessa support Putin. And as you know, the post-Euromaidan Ukrainian government removed Russian as an official language, and that really pissed off the ethnic Russians in Ukraine. I've heard that the armed forces of the separatist regions in Eastern Ukraine are ethnic Russians who were in the Ukrainian military who defected after Euromaidan.

As for Zelensky, isn't his first language Ukrainian? The name "Volodymyr" is a very Ukrainian name; the Russian equivalent would be "Vladimir". The dog2 (talk) 20:30, 25 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I don't know what this refers to, but I suppose the thread on my user page may be relevant. I don't know much about the feelings in the "people's republics", but I don't think being ethnically Russian and having lived in one of them means you support the Russian war and like being "liberated" by Putin bombing your home city. –LPfi (talk) 21:08, 25 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Zelensky's first language was Russian. And Kharkhiv is a Russian-speaking city. It doesn't matter what you wouldn't be "surprised" if people think; Wikivoyage articles are not places to idly speculate on these things, but we certainly know there are plenty of Russian-speakers fighting against the invasion today. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:08, 25 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
(edit conflict) Over 12,000 ethnic Russians have been killed in the Donbass by Ukrainian military shelling over the past 8 years. And given that it is mainly the Azov Battalion has been fighting there, and those Azov guys are far-right Ukrainian ultranationalists who have a visceral hatred for ethnic Russians (not just Russian propaganda; this has actually been corroborated by Time magazine and Al Jazeera), those ethnic Russians in the Donbass might very well support Putin, but I don't have polling data to draw a conclusion. The dog2 (talk) 22:16, 25 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Correct, you don't. And people in a city that's been razed to the ground by Russian shelling might have a "pox on both their houses" attitude but might not support the one who ordered the utter obliteration of their city. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:22, 25 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
This discussion reinforces the deep concern that I have about Thedog 2's edits about politics and history.
First, let's start with the false assertion that Zelensky's first language is Ukrainian. Thedog 2 jumped to a conclusion based on the spelling of the man's name, instead of researching this, which is very easy to do in the age of Google. This is just the most recent example of Thedog 2 making something up in instead of looking something up.
Secondly, as Thedog 2 acknowledges, what they wrote in the article "might" be true, but they don't have any evidence.
This is not an isolated incident, but a pattern of behaviour. I think we have to consider whether Thedog 2's edits to political and historical information are so suspect that we should ask them to stop making such edits.
I know this is not the right place to raise this question, but I would like to hear the thoughts of Ikan Kekek and @LPfi: before I proceed on the talk page. Ground Zero (talk) 01:34, 26 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Source that Zelenskyy's first language is not Ukrainian: w:Volodymyr Zelenskyy#Personal life – took four seconds to get that result. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:44, 26 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I would support that, Ground Zero. I think I've been very good in avoiding political speculations in articles. We all should. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:18, 26 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
One has to be very careful when googling things up. I didn't read the sources for the Wikipedian statement, but judging from their titles they aren't about Zelenskyy's personal life (as aren't the sources in Early life), and I don't trust Wikipedia editors not to jump to conclusions. I suppose it's true, but the article could have got its current wording even if he was raised by Ukrainian speaking parents (their language isn't told), as he seemingly grew up in a Russian-speaking environment and perhaps attended school in Russian.
We cannot avoid political themes entirely in Understand and Respect sections, but I agree that The dog2 should be more careful not to jump to conclusions, and abstain from writing things based on possibly biased sources, or based on impressions rather than actual knowledge. (I don't know whether there have been problematic edits recently; asking things on talk pages should be allowed, although "no reason to get into this in the article" is a valid answer.)
LPfi (talk) 09:32, 26 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Existential wiki question[edit]

Hi Ikan Kekek,

I wasn't sure who else to ask. I just tried to make a page for the public campground I'm staying at. It seemed like it was in line with "be bold" and helping people figure things out about places they might want to go. But then someone deleted it and all it said was something like "campground fail" but I didn't see anything in whatever pages I read about how to be a wikivoyage editor. So I tried asking on that user's talk page where I could find the relevant guideline and a bot wouldn't let me ask the question.

I've bumped into this on Wikipedia as well in the past. I know media wikis are supposed to be friendly but I have experienced a really really high barrier to entry. I consider myself a good community member who, y'know, plays well with others and is an active and contibuting member of society. I really appreciated your constructive explanation when you deleted my contribution.

So I have a few requests, if you're willing: 1. I was wondering if you could pass a message along to the person that deleted the Sweetwater Summit Campground page that it would be more useful to explain what's going on than to just throw away my efforts with two cryptic words? If you think it could help others in the future. 2. Any chance you know what "campground fail" means? Maybe there's a page with a guideline somewhere I could read? 3. Any thoughts on the high barrier to entry for Wikipedia and apparently Wikivoyage?

All the best, off to go for an evening hike in the beautiful trails around this campground here. —The preceding comment was added by 172.58.22.179 (talkcontribs)

I'm sorry that happened to you. The relevant guideline is Wikivoyage:What is an article. Campgrounds don't get their own articles but are valuable to list in the article for the destination where they are sited, or failing that, the one for the nearest town. They would be a "sleep" listing. See Wikivoyage:Listings. Let me know if there's any other way I can help you.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:44, 26 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
By the way, though, you misread the deletion notice, which was "campgrounds fail wv:wiaa". That's a link to What is an article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:46, 26 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
to 172.58.22.179, I've added a listing to Sweetwater Summit Campground in San Diego/Mid-City where the campground belongs. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 03:04, 26 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
oops. just realised that I added the listing in the wrong article. I self-reverted my edit. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:00, 27 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you. This is all very helpful. 172.58.19.12 17:23, 26 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
We try. We were all new users once. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:46, 26 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

existential wiki answer[edit]

it has been a very long time since drinks, so to speak, more parched than a dead dingo in the simpson desert, I think I am back Id rather be a drinker in the vicinity of the strand bookstore, however not likely again this lifetime... JarrahTree (talk) 14:13, 29 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

How are you doing? I am now officially a COVID survivor. I got sick 2 Sundays ago, finally tested negative yesterday and now feel like I have a bad cold. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:22, 29 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Apols for chiming in, but great to hear that you've tested negative. Hope you recover from your cold soon. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:38, 30 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks. I think the symptoms are aftereffects from COVID, not a new illness. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:50, 30 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yeah when I recovered from Covid, I still had coughing symptoms for about three weeks. It was more of a concern when I went to Queensland where they had just opened up their borders and "living with Covid" was a new thing for them so every time I coughed I got strange looks (which is something that doesn't happen here down south). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:01, 30 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'll continue wearing my mask, which should make people less worried about any time I might cough. How are you doing now? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:06, 30 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for asking. I'm doing fine as it's almost been a month since I contracted Covid, but case numbers are quite high out here that nearly everyone that I know of has had Covid in the past three months. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:24, 30 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm glad you're fully recovered, but the other part sucks. People are pretending that the pandemic is over and that COVID is just the cold. It's not. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:37, 30 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I agree. When I was in Brisbane two weeks ago, there were constant news reports about a "hidden pandemic" as no-one really wanted to test just before the Easter long weekend. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:52, 30 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I have been used to trusting our authorities, but restrictions are away and they say "the risk of getting seriously ill [in COVID-19] has never been this low", which is true on average for those who get ill (thanks to also vaccinated people getting the omicron), but the incidence has never been higher, so the death toll hasn't decreased. Few vaccinated healthy people get seriously ill, but I am not too inclined to take my chances. Good to hear that you are well. –LPfi (talk) 10:23, 30 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm glad he's well; I am not well yet. I feel like I have a cold now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:21, 30 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
OK, sorry. I hope you'll be well too soon. –LPfi (talk) 18:34, 30 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:36, 30 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Much or many[edit]

Here you changed "much" to "many". I understand that you cannot say "much batteries", but I doubt the limitation is on the number. Can you find a good way to express that? "How much battery" does not sound right. Do we have to resort to something convoluted like "limit on maximum combined weight of your lithium batteries"? –LPfi (talk) 12:03, 4 May 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Are lithium batteries not in one standard weight? If not, then I would suggest "their big cousins, commercial aviation, usually have a pretty low weight limit for lithium ion batteries." Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:44, 4 May 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The ones you use in your torch are different from the one in your mobile phone or those in a Tesla. I don't know what kind they use in drones, but I think they might be custom made. (I assume this is about Li-ion batteries, not "lithium-metal" ones) –LPfi (talk) 09:00, 5 May 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
So let's go with weight limit. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:26, 5 May 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

153.107.26.53[edit]

re Special:Diff/4454642: not Brendan, but it's our other Australian LTA (Basa Pulu Kokos) based on editing habits. Anyway, thanks for the revert :-) --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:11, 24 May 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sure thing. Yeah, I can see that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:59, 24 May 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Cloistered communities[edit]

To my knowledge, monasteries are for monks, and convents are for nuns. So women cannot visit cloistered monks, while men cannot visit cloistered nuns unless they are priests who are there to conduct specific rites. The dog2 (talk) 17:43, 8 June 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

But there are a lot of cloisters that can be visited. To take one example, the Abbey of Monte Oliveto in Chiusure has great art in its cloister and welcomes respectful tourism as well as visiting pilgrims of both sexes. So be careful how you phrase things. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:53, 8 June 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Regional American accents[edit]

Just wondering, where can you still hear these accents? I never heard the New York accent when I was living in New York (except when I hear Bernie Sanders speaking on TV), and now in Chicago, I never hear the Chicago accent. White people just speak with a general American accent similar to what you hear in the news. Likewise, I never heard a Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore or New Orleans accent whenever I visited those cities. And even when I went to Acadiana, I did not hear the Cajun accent in downtown Lafayette; the people there just spoke with a general American accent. The only time I heard the Cajun accent was when I went to an out-of-the-way suburban mom and pop grocery store that someone on Tripadvisor recommended for boudin and cracklin'. But otherwise, I have to go onto YouTube if I want to hear those accents. The dog2 (talk) 14:52, 16 June 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I actually ran this by my girlfriend. We both agree that there's less isolation than there used to be, but we think you're exaggerating about the demise of these accents. I've certainly heard very distinct Southern accents in trips to the Carolinas, and the Pittsburgh accent, while not drastically different from some New York accents, is definitely distinct. Likewise, it's not at all uncommon to hear people in the Boston area "pahk the cah", and I definitely noticed a Hawaiian accent when I visited. Etc. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:13, 16 June 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
So where in New York City would you recommend people to go to if they want to hear the New York accent, just like how Bernie Sanders speaks? And yes, it's certainly true that the Southern accents still persist among the younger generation to some degree. When I went to that grocery store in suburban Lafayatte, I certainly heard the young women working there speaking with a very strong Cajun accent. But in downtown Lafayette, all I heard was the general American accent. And there was a young woman from Alabama who joined the neuroscience PhD programme at my university, and you can hear a very thick Southern accent when she gives her talks. But that's the exception rather than the rule. I have not been to Alabama, but most Alabamans that I have met in Chicago speak with a general American accent, and completely lack the drawl. I've also met numerous Texans, and they also speak with a general American accents, and do not have the twang at all. The dog2 (talk) 17:29, 16 June 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Many of the Texans I've known have a very distinct accent. In terms of the New York accent, I'd actually suggest you talk to more Long Islanders to hear strong versions of the accent. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:31, 16 June 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Driving in Malaysia[edit]

I wonder if you think you would be up to the task of creating such an article. Your Malay is probably better than mine, so I guess you could help to translate some road signs. I only know some simple expressions like "Awas" (Caution) or "berhenti" (stop). Unfortunately, I never got the chance to drive in Malaysia, but my family would make road trips to Malaysia back when I was a kid, so I guess I have some familiarity with road conditions in Malaysia. For instance, I have noticed that Malaysian drivers tend not to use their signals when changing lanes. And I also noticed that while there is a good expressway network along the West Coast if you want to drive from Singapore up to Penang, the East Coast doesn't have that. I've only made it as far up the East Coast as Mersing, but the road there is just a regular country road, so it would probably take a while to make up up to Kuantan, Kuala Terengganu or Kota Bharu if you are starting from Singapore. The dog2 (talk) 20:36, 22 June 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Well, there is the E8 lebuhraya, but it's inland. But I remember from 2003 that the East Coast highway itself was much improved compared to the 1-lane-each-way though nicely blacktopped road that was there in the 70s; I believe it was 2 lanes each way. I'm not a driver, though. :-) In addition to "Awas", add "Berhaya," as in "Awas! Berhaya!" Drivers in Malaysia seemed better in 2003 than they had been from 1975-77, for whatever that's worth. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:13, 22 June 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Revert[edit]

You reverted my change to Valle del Cauca's banner because:

Your banner substitution for Cali was so obvious I marked it patrolled, but the normal procedure is to propose to replace a banner and see if you get a consensus behind the suggestion. Please start a thread on this article's talk page.Undo revision 4476012 by Travelwriter1000

But this discussion already took place, and you supported the change. Travelwriter1000 (talk) 15:06, 5 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sorry. Only one comment isn't really a consensus, but since no-one else was interested enough to comment, the change should be made. I'll make the change. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:57, 5 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I don't love the skyline view, though. I think it's improvable. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:59, 5 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I agree (it's not one of mine), but it's better than having the crummy one at both Valle del Cauca and Buga. Travelwriter1000 (talk) 15:34, 7 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yeah. If nothing else, we don't want the same banner used in two articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:48, 7 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

communication channel to coordinate[edit]

What is the best communication channel to coordinate with other Wikivoyage editors across language editions? Is there an active telegram or facebook group, IRC or other types of chat? --Zblace (talk) 18:00, 17 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Wikivoyage Interlingual Lounge, but it would be a good idea to supplement that with announcements on the Travellers' pub and equivalents on other Wikivoyage language versions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:59, 17 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you...Trying both. --Zblace (talk) 20:01, 21 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Seremban[edit]

Jika anda tidak berpuas hati dengan gambar, silalah ganti dengan gambar asal, bukan main revert je. ade je informasi lain upadte pun kena revert juga. *angys* (talk) 21:55, 28 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

OK. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:12, 28 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Habis-lah. Ada semua? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:15, 28 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Regarding Special:Diff/4495642[edit]

Regarding your message

Why couldn't you close this yourself? It is not a bad practice for any admin to close a nom.

Because dealing with admin nominations stuff is usually done by bureaucrats, not other admins (unless they're self-closing a nom. they started). That's why left the closing bit alone. Hope that clarifies why. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:42, 6 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

There are many examples in Wikivoyage:User rights nominations/Archives of admins who are not bureaucrats closing admin nominations. I don't see a good reason why only bureaucrats should close such noms, though I see that was added at Wikivoyage:User rights nominations at some point. I'll start a talk page thread about it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:29, 6 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

New bureaucrat inactivity policy[edit]

You are receiving this message because you are a bureaucrat on this wiki.

Following a successful change in the inactivity policy, the bureaucrat policy has now been updated. Bureaucrats may now have their privileges removed if they have not:

  • Made one edit
  • Made one admin or bureaucrat action

over a 12-month period.

Bureaucrats who do not meet these requirements will be notified well in advance on their talk pages. Thank you.

--SHB2000 (talk) 06:52, 18 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Apologies for this. I forgot that you were participating on Wikivoyage talk:Bureaucrats#Inactivity policy thread but I didn't have that in mind when I sent out the mass message. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 07:26, 18 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Not a problem. It read like a threat, but I knew it couldn't have been intended for me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:45, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yep, I sent it to everyone who was on Special:ListUsers/bureaucrat using Special:MassMessage so definitely not only for you ;-). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 06:51, 19 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Special:Diff/4516408 on Northampton (England)[edit]

Regarding that edit, British English (and Australian, New Zealand, Indian and so on. English) does not usually put a period after St, Mt, Rd and so on so it would be St Gilles. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 01:11, 10 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

OK, thanks. Now, about the capes in Delaware Bay... Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:22, 10 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Responded to that on my talk. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 01:53, 10 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

My apologies[edit]

Hi Ikan, I apologise if my comments have caused any offense on Talk:Clothes#A proposal to ban religious quotes.. It was not my intent to offend you or anyone. I was quite frustrated how everyone completely ignored my point of view, plus the irrational sockpuppet allegations, but I shouldn't have let it loose. Judaism wasn't on my mind, but the quote still does come out as proselytising to me, keeping in mind that there is no clear cut line between what's proselytising and what's not; it can be interpreted differently by person. Either way, I'll drop the stick, and I apologise again if I've caused any offense. Regards, --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 08:11, 15 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Appreciated, but do keep in mind that Jews are not trying to convert you, so there is indeed a clear line as regards Jews vis-a-vis non-Jews. I'm a secular Jew who practices to a very limited extent, but that doesn't cause me to dis the Torah as part of my heritage. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:13, 15 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@SHB2000: Also, I was not disregarding your opinion. We just happen to disagree on what constitutes proselytizing. For me, merely quoting a passage from some holy book does not in and of itself mean that you are trying to promote that religion, but of course, you're free to disagree with me on that. The dog2 (talk) 22:58, 15 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Japan[edit]

Hey there... to answer your question, you're probably right, however once more details become available I think they should be put into the Get In box. For example, whether or not there will be any vaccine requirements, as the Prime Minister did not mention it in his speech. I'm sure MOFA will put out an update very soon. JRHorse (talk) 22:25, 22 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

OK, sure, whatever is of most help to travelers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:11, 22 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Admin permissions[edit]

I've not been editing that much on Wikivoyage recently, so I don't think there is any need for me to keep the admin rights. So could you remove them and the int admin as well. Thanks. -- WOSlinker (talk) 17:46, 1 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@WOSlinker: I'm not Ikan here, but thank you for your service. We'll truly miss your technical updates :-(. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 22:03, 1 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I strongly second this. Please feel welcome to request the rights back any time you decide you'd like to start using them again, and stay well! Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:02, 2 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
WOSlinker, should I also remove your template editor rights, or would you like to keep those? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:04, 2 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'd like to keep that. I think I might still have a use for it as I may still want to update some protected templates occasionally. Thanks. -- WOSlinker (talk) 07:18, 2 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm glad to hear that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:22, 2 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Standard revision deletion request[edit]

Hi, could you please standard revision delete 5 revisions to your user page. Thanks. Tailsultimatefan3891 (t | c | ca) 01:38, 29 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

If you're spending time looking at the history of my user page, why? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:49, 29 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm guessing because Tailsultimatefan3891 might've found Special:Diff/3471557 inappropriate? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 08:52, 29 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
But why would they be looking at this history? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:58, 29 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Maybe a m:Wikiarchaeologist? (I certainly fall into that category) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 09:05, 29 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Those revisions are inappropriate or degrading. You may have a standard revision delete to hide those revisions. Tailsultimatefan3891 (t | c | ca) 12:00, 29 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Who else is looking at them? Concentrate on creating content. You are here to improve a travel guide, aren't you? Think about why you're here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:41, 29 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Best wishes[edit]

I just read Special:Diff/4550785; I hope COVID hasn't hit you that hard. COVID does really suck sometimes and the last time I had it (mid-August), it really did feel miserable at times, but keep in mind that there will be better days coming. Either way, I hope you have a speedy recovery! --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 03:15, 29 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

A speedy and full recovery to both of you. Ground Zero (talk) 07:42, 29 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Ground Zero: Not me – I've mostly recovered from it as it's been 2 months, but I thank my immune system for that ;-) --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 07:54, 29 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
SHB: I meant IK and girlfriend, but I wasn't clear. Ground Zero (talk) 08:59, 29 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Indenting sucks... SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 09:24, 29 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
So far, this is much milder than last time. Thanks very much for your good wishes. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:47, 29 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
My girlfriend is much better and has performed twice this past week. Thanks! Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:10, 29 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Revert[edit]

Hey I am new to editing on this site, why was the link to english on Fuerteventura reverted? I appreciate any feedback given. I sell eggs (talk) 23:58, 31 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Indeed, welcome! The reason is that since anyone reading this site knows English and English language varieties is only about the differences between some dialects of English, there is no good reason to link the name of the language to anything. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:05, 1 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@I sell eggs: Wikivoyage:Internal links provides more information on how we handle links in Wikivoyage. I hope it helps. Regards, Ground Zero (talk) 01:13, 1 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Allowing Brendan's content to stay[edit]

Why do you think it's okay to leave Brendan's content up and only changing one word? (I don't mind having the listing, but I object to the wording, which was probably stolen from somewhere). --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 00:23, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I take your point. I'm pretty tired, but I can try editing some. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:31, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Much appreciated; any wording that doesn't look near-identical should be fine, IMO. If only we could find a way to prevent Brendan spamming every single country/region article with Christmas content... SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 00:35, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I know. It's really annoying as Hell, especially when he keeps adding stuff about Christmas in, like, Kuwait, and it happens like clockwork every year. However, in this case, the marker should be listed. I think you'll be satisfied with my phrasing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:38, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thx; LGTM :-). Regarding Brendan, I think the only way to deal with this is to routinely range block the /64 range he uses (making sure they geolocate to Brisbane or the Sunshine Coast), but he's managed to find a way out of it. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 00:56, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Does he get around the abuse filters? Otherwise we could use them instead of blocking the ranges. –LPfi (talk) 10:28, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I thought we discussed this last year and chose not to use the filters. IIRC, we never implemented such because an innocent IP might want to add their town's local Christmas fair or the alike. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 10:34, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Of course, we cannot disallow all Christmas-themed editing, even from those locations. I though we could combine the theme with something clever. But if IPv6-/64 ranges are the best we can do, then the risk of the next one to use that range trying to edit Wikivoyage is minimal – but do we actually catch his next edit by those range blocks? Otherwise just reverting is equally effective, with a 1-hr block the times we could interrupt a series. –LPfi (talk) 11:51, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Word for "simhall"[edit]

From Talk:Sex segregation: "What you're calling swimming baths would presumably be either pools or perhaps beaches. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:29, 22 November 2022 (UTC)"Reply[reply]

"Swimming bath" was the translation of "simhall" given by my dead-wood dictionary. Wiktionary says "swimming pool (indoor facility for swimming)". The thing I'm searching a word for is a building containing at least a swimming pool, changing rooms, showers and sauna, often several pools of different kinds, such as one with diving platforms, one for children and one with cold water, in addition to the main one(s). Neither dictionary gives that meaning for "swimming pool". Are these facilities uncommon in Anglophone countries? –LPfi (talk) 08:51, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I can't speak for all Anglophone countries, but that doesn't sound like anything that's common in the U.S. The closest thing I can think of here would be a spa, but I actually don't know what the place you describe would be called. It's not like the Turkish baths in Budapest, which don't have diving boards or saunas that I can remember. I think what you're describing is a Nordic thing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:04, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That would explain the lack of word to describe it. Here these facilities are ubiquitous in cities, usually municipal and specifically for swimming, with other activities as supplements. Private "simhall" are rare. The private counterparts instead concentrate on wellness (spas) or fun (water parks), often combined. There is some cross-breeding, such as many "simhall" containing gyms and many spas having also a pool for regular (back-and-forth) swimming in cool water.
With thousands of lakes and extensive archipelagos, swimming has been a big thing, once we got wealthy enough to have time for such "useless" activities (archipelago dwellers learnt to swim only recently – you'd keep to your boat, and keep children away from the shore). Learning to swim has been on the curriculum in primary schools in Finland more or less during my and your lifetime, as a sport and to keep down drownings; my parents and their friends did swim, but many of their age did not. With our short summers, schools and athletes needed indoor facilities, many built in the 1970s. I assume the developments have been similar in Sweden and Norway.
LPfi (talk) 09:52, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]