User talk:Ikan Kekek

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Hello, everybody! If you'd like to discuss anything with me, please post new topics at the bottom of the page and sign the posts with 4 tildes (the ~ key) in a row. Thanks!

Currently inactive discussions can be found at User talk:Ikan Kekek/archive. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:37, 26 November 2016 (UTC)


Brownsville (Texas)[edit]


Saw your edit that you made on the Brownsville (Texas) WikiVoyage page. How did you find out about the article? No one has updated it in years and as soon as I started making edits, it attracted someone's attention. I figured no one looked at the article, but I guess I was wrong.

De88 (talk) 17:59, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Hello, De88, welcome to Wikivoyage, and thank you for editing! Many of us spend some time doing Wikivoyage:Recent changes patrol, so we see the articles that have been most recently edited. While checking these new edits, we sometimes notice other things in the article that need editing. Ikan Kekek (talk)

19:30, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

That makes sense. If you see any mistakes or you want to add on to the article, feel free to do so. I started updating the whole article since it was rather a bit boring. No one had updated it in a long time and decided to fill in information about the city. Thanks for your edit! De88 (talk) 20:01, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for yours! This guide depends on volunteers to add content. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:35, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
You're welcome! About your edit in the McAllen (Texas) WikiVoyage page, I do agree that placing the Harlingen airport is a good option for tourists to know when visiting the area. The only problem I have with the McAllen page (Wiki and WikiVoyage) is that their content sounds way too promotional. The editors seem to add a lot of misleading things about the city, mostly their Wiki page. Months ago, I had to delete tons of content that was promoting and/or boasting too much about McAllen. I guess I am too harsh on that but thanks for explaining why you reverted the edit. De88 (talk) 02:40, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
I understand completely, and for the record, I'd encourage you to be pretty ruthless in detouting, as long as you don't delete important listings wholesale. An irredeemably touty listing for a store can often be deleted without any real trouble for visitors, but a listing for a nearby airport should stay. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:56, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Will keep a look out for any touting. On a personal note, is the Brownsville (Texas) WikiVoyage page good? I'm looking for feedback. Anything to add to inform tourists? Thanks again! De88 (talk) 03:21, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
It looks pretty good. It's excellent that there's so much geotagging. Some of it might be a bit wordy. I question the existence and content of the "Learn" section. Wikivoyage guidelines are not to list any institution of learning under "Learn" unless it offers ~2-week or shorter courses for non-matriculated students, so that short-term visitors could learn something while on vacation. The libraries probably provide Wi-Fi, so they should be listed in a "Connect" section. The colleges should be listed in "See" if they're interesting sights, or in "Do" if they offer concert series and/or college sports to watch, but otherwise, probably shouldn't be listed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:43, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
P.S. Based on its description, University of Texas Rio Grande Valley should definitely have a "See" listing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:44, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Oh, another thing: That article needs images. In case you'd like to help out with that, have a look at Wikivoyage:How to add an image. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:48, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Thank you so much for the feedback! I will make sure to correct the 'Learn' section and move the information to the correct area. Is it possible to take images that are already in Wikimedia Commons?
Not only is it possible, but that's always what's done, in the format [[File:Filename|thumb|Caption]] Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:53, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Was thinking about the suggestion you made about moving University of Texas Rio Grande Valley to the 'See' section and I think it's best to leave all the universities and colleges as there are people who want to visit the area since they plan on taking courses in one of the colleges that the city offers. Don't you think adding info on universities is vital for those who plan on moving to the area? The Austin WikiVoyage also has a list of universities in the area. What do you think? Ikan Kekek - De88 (talk) 22:06, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
Many of us would like for Wikivoyage to redefine "travel" to encompass moving or studying more than it does, but the rough though controversial consensus is that with the partial exception of travel topics, "travel" consists of visiting someplace for about 2 weeks or less, whether as part of a longer trip or as the sole destination on the trip. Have a look at Wikivoyage talk:Listings#Learn for a relevant discussion. And perhaps the Austin guide may need editing; I'll try to remember to have a look later. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:37, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for explaining. The McAllen WikiVoyage (city nearby in Brownsville) also lists a college with five campuses. Should this be deleted as well? De88 (talk) 21:33, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
The libraries should probably be moved to a "Cope" section, and yeah, the college listings should be deleted unless they belong in "See" as interesting sights or in "Do" as places to go to ballgames, concerts, public lecture series or the like. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:56, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the suggestion! Will move them. Anything else I should add? As I look at the WikiVoyage page for big cities (like Houston and Dallas), they have an immense amount of information in their articles. Do you think the info provided for Brownsville is more than enough for a city of its size? De88 (talk) 01:11, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
Big cities normally do get more detailed coverage. I'm not sure when I'll have the time to look at the Brownsville article in detail, so basically, what I'd say is: anything interesting that's non-encyclopedic and travel-related can be included. You might have a look at the article for Buffalo, New York and its districts to see an example of the upper limits of how much information can be provided that's still relevant for a visitor. I don't suggest that you need to emulate that article, though. Type "Category:Star articles" into the search bar and see how various other articles that have been considered exemplary have dealt with things. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:53, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
Good to know. I will look into it. I'm thinking of adding a 'Spa' section under 'Cope'. Do you think this fits the category or is it irrelevant to the article? De88 (talk) 21:41, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
Either "Cope" or "Do". Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:39, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
Quick question, when does an article become a "Guide" article? Where does Brownsville current stand as the article it is right now? How much work is needed to get the article into "Guide" status? De88 (talk) 06:50, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
Have a look at Wikivoyage:City guide status for guidelines, but other than the formal guidelines, there are subjective opinions - Guide status is a more subjective determination than Usable status, which is pretty cut and dried. I am probably too busy at the moment to advise you on whether the Brownsville article is already a Guide, plus my internet is out and I'm typing this from a local restaurant that's kindly letting me use their Wi-Fi because I'm a regular customer, so use your own judgment or start a thread on the article's talk page and see if you get more input, or you can wait for whenever I get around to it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:09, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the suggestion! Sorry for replying so late. I just came across your message. I think I'll wait until you have some time to look over the article. You have been very kind to me, as opposed to other users on WP who are known to be vile. In the mean time, I will gather more information on the city and provide thorough details. De88 (talk) 20:46, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
You're very welcome! We need people to contribute their knowledge. Eventually, it would be nice to feature Brownsville on the front page for a month as an Off the Beaten Path destination. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:58, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
That would be nice! How does one get an article as an Off the Beaten Path destination? Also, how can I upload a banner for the Brownsville, Texas page? I'm having a hard time trying to figure it out. De88 (talk) 00:55, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
It has to be a good Guide-level article and then would need to be nominated at dotm. In terms of your question about pagebanners, see Wikivoyage:Banner Expedition#How do I help? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:04, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
I'm having a bit of an issue trying to upload the banner. It is asking me to place a copyright tag since the picture is not mine. The website I got the picture is from the city. It's called the Brownsville Convention & Visitors Bureau ( and I have no idea what tag belongs to the domain. Do you by any chance know how to work this out? De88 (talk) 03:51, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
You can't use copyrighted photos! Please don't try to use any photo from any copyrighted site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:59, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
That sucks! It's really hard taking a nice picture of the panoramic view of the city. I'll try to go out and take some pictures. Hope they actually come out nice and not low-quality, tilted, etc. Thanks for the help! De88 (talk) 04:05, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
Hey, copyright is important! Did you already look through all the photos in Category:Brownsville, Texas on Wikimedia Commons and find nothing suitable? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:17, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
I know, but I just thought it would be legally acceptable to get a picture, while giving the owner the rightfully credit he/she deserves. WikiVoyage runs very different from WP. I checked the category and there isn't a good picture that can make a great banner. De88 (talk) 04:34, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

[unindent] I don't think you understand Wikipedia policy correctly. I just looked up w:Image use policy and found a useful link to Wikipedia:Copyrights § Image guidelines:

In contrast to the federal government, most state and local governments in the United States retain copyright to their employees' work. Such work is not in the public domain, so please make sure to check copyright information before using it.

And the website you were looking at has expressly copyrighted its contents. You'd have to get written permission from them in order to be able to copy any images to Commons and then use them on other Wikimedia projects.

One thing about a banner, though: A mediocre banner (though not a terrible one) as a placeholder is better than none and can be replaced by a better banner after you've had a chance to take some large, high-quality photos. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:29, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not very familiar with all of WP's policies. When I made the account, I didn't take into mind all the rules WP had. Figured since WP has an option to upload photos under "fair use", that it would also apply here. Any suggestions on how to take a great "high quality" picture for the banner? Something inexpensive. De88 (talk) 20:18, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
I spend a lot of time looking at photos on Commons, but I'm no photography expert. I would suggest for you to ask questions there. I'm not sure where the best place to do that is. I was thinking Commons talk:Photography critiques, but I'm unsure that's the best place to ask questions about equipment, setup and the like. You could look at some of the advice at Help:Improve the quality of your pictures; a lot of it's in German, but Google Translate will help with that. Quality is defined, with examples, at Commons:Image guidelines. Also, don't overlook Commons:Free media resources, because there are some sites outside of Commons that include images whose licenses allow them to be uploaded to Commons, but be careful, because, for example, there are problems with Flickr. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:00, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
After spending some time deciding how to edit and re-arrange info on the page, I have come to ask how close is the Brownsville (Texas) into becoming a 'Star' article? My guess is that it will need more much pictures but how much more info does the article need to be classified as 'Star'? Ikan Kekek De88 (talk) 10:05, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
Hi, User:De88. I don't know when I'll have the chance to look over the article with a fine-enough-toothed comb to answer that question. The thing is, for Star status, everything has to be just about perfect. The idea of a Star article is that it's the best guide available for the place in question, and also that it's impeccable in style, appearance, writing mechanics and readability. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:23, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Safety on beaches...[edit]

Re your comment on 'undertow', do we have an travel topic on this?

Safety on beaches has been an issue in the UK given the incident on Cmamber Sands. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:24, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

I really don't. I just remember when I was living in Terengganu in the mid 70s that, apparently (this was a story I was told, but it's surely credible), Australian tourists asked where the local beach was, and locals told them where it was but that they shouldn't swim there because there were hantu (evil spirits) there. They dismissed their rural Malay advisors as superstitious yokels, tried to swim at the beach and were killed by the undertow. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:16, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

I added Villa Margarita to the St Croix US Virgin Islands page and it was removed. Why? Thanks.VillaMargaritaStCroix (talk) 07:30, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[edit]

VillaMargaritaStCroix (talk) 07:30, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Hello and welcome! My reason was stated in my edit summary, and I'll also post it here:
"Specific listings go in city articles."
You didn't give a street address or geo coordinates for your villa, but you should list it in the guide for either Christiansted or Frederiksted, whichever is closer to you. You'll also want to look at welcome, business owners for some useful guidelines relevant to you.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:36, 29 September 2016 (UTC)


For pinging me - the notification system here in the larger wp universe is improving by the leaps and bounds, and I had problems with sundanese editors xenphobic arrogance on wp en from about 5 years ago (the malay nationalists were up to no good about 2 or 3), so it is nice to find friendly and cooperative and understanding eds who are improving tourism info about the complex island of java, and for me to exude my own version of xenophobia of a bantul/Merapi axis bias and deluded and declining enthusiasm as the years tick away from when I was last there JarrahTree (talk) 11:06, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Certainly, my friend. I hope you've been well. Ikan Kekek (talk)
I should have emailed you some time after last edits in july - horrible shift work for almost a month, then two months of an extended flu... much better but feeling much older though JarrahTree (talk) 11:12, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
A nasty flu will do that to you. I'm glad you're on the mend. Don't tire yourself out. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:14, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
Oh well back to be a nuisance here again then :) JarrahTree (talk) 11:48, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
Hey, go crazy! :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:57, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
I have a deep personal distrust of 'artificial regions' created for touristic purposes - here in Western Australia we have some bizarre ones unrelated to government or geography, just some marketing person in government with a very overpaid limited imagination. Reading this stuff about Java brings me back to where I did my field work all those years ago - not sure whether to squawk like a chook, bark like a dog, or break out in high pitched falsetto when I see suggestions for artificial tourist regions of java... JarrahTree (talk) 14:05, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Chalet Kitchen Listings[edit]

Hi Ikan I see you have removed my listings for Chalet Kitchen. I was afraid this might happen. We are a small company (4 employees) but we operate across multiple resorts in the french alps. The service we provide (home cooked food delivery to chalets for tourists) is a new concept and I think it would be a valuable resource to list in the resorts we service (about 10 places with pages here). It is of particular use to the budget traveller as all the food is cooked by them at their accommodation by them thus making it cheaper than restaurants. How can I list this business without falling foul of the guidelines? (We have a head office in Les Gets but that is just a facility which no traveller would ever see). Any advice you can offer would be appreciated. Thanks. —The preceding comment was added by Ckwikiuser (talkcontribs)

My feeling is that the best thing you can do while falling within the don't tout guidelines is to list in the Les Gets article but mention that you also serve chalets in Towns A, B, C, X, Y and Z. The other alternative would be a listing in a regional article, but regional articles aren't supposed to have specific listings in them. (By the way, in talk pages, it's traditional to sign your username by typing 4 tildes (~) in a row at the end of your post.) Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:11, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for this quick response. I think I will list in Chamonix as that is where we do most of our business. I will try to keep a neutral tone. Thanks for your help. Ckwikiuser (talk) 13:22, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

You're welcome, and thanks for working with us (me, in this case, but our guidelines). The thing is, normally speaking, you would need to include an address, although if people can't visit it, that should be stated. But a name, description and website is generally considered an insufficient listing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:25, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Needs improvement[edit]

The {{needsimprovement}} template was meant to aid in tracking new articles that may not merit a standalone article. The idea was that an article could be tagged for tracking while giving the original author time to develop it to a minimal level that demonstrated that a standalone article was not unwarranted, and if they did not return then the article could be otherwise addressed. As a result I'm not sure that removing it from the Badagry article was correct, but wanted to leave a message rather than revert in case you knew something about the location and were confident it should have an article. -- Ryan • (talk) • 07:42, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining. When and where was there a decision to use this template on this site? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:01, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
I recall several discussions, but Template talk:Needsimprovement is one place where discussion took place. Like nearly all discussions on this site things stalled without a clear outcome, so this template has been in limbo ever since. -- Ryan • (talk) • 14:59, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the link. What I get from that discussion is that there was never an agreement to add this template to more articles. So I would propose that no-one add that template to any article without further discussion that shows a consensus behind doing so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:13, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Ido phrasebook[edit]

A friend of mine working on the Esperanto phrasebook showed me Wikivoyage, and recommended that I borrowed the Esperanto structure for my phrasebook about Ido. If you let the Esperanto phrasebook be, shouldn't the Ido phrasebook get treated the same? Also Manx Gaelic phrasebook; Manx has been extinct since 1974, Scottish Gaelic phrasebook; only 1.2% of Scotland speaks it, West Frisian phrasebook; barely anybody speaks it and they all speak Dutch too, same with Irish phrasebook, Corsican phrasebook; everybody there speaks French and only a few have even 'conversational knowledge' of that language. That phrasebook even says that the phrasebook is 'just for fun'. – Algentem (talk) 18:43, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm not Ikan, but you might be interested in this recent discussion: Talk:Phrasebooks#Is_there_any_threshold_of_usefulness.3F ϒpsilon (talk) 18:45, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
I would definitely support deleting the Esperanto phrasebook. Having one or two or a few useless phrasebooks on a travel site doesn't justify adding another. I will nominate this new one for deletion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:56, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
See Wikivoyage:Votes for deletion#Ido phrasebook. And no offense, Algentem; I would love for you to contribute travel-related content here. I just don't think a phrasebook for a made-up language is travel-related. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:03, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Kitesurfing article[edit]

Hi Ikan

Thank you for your kind comments regarding the contribution to the kitesurfing page :)

As far as the listing goes, I see where you're coming from but my thought is that the key aspect to the article is the 'learn' section. It heads up the page, and is probably the main thing most users will be interested in when reading the page.

Our instructors at Graykite have experience of teaching kitesurfing all over the world and my thought was to develop the article so that it provides more information on kitesurfing, learning to kitesurf and top locations. And that it should provide a recommended place (or places) to learn under each destination. Which will make the article both more complete and more useful to people who visit with the intention of learning about, or learning to, kitesurf.

We have a list of schools we recommend to our students if they want to learn in other places (it's not a commercial relationship, just a kindness to our students based on our instructors' past experience) and was planning to add them all. Obviously as time permits!

As other people see the article growing, hopefully they will contribute their experience too. Hopefully this makes sense to you?

Cheers GK Graykite Tarifa (talk) 10:47, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

It does make sense as one possible way to go with the article, and the fact that you'd plan on listing a bunch of schools, not just one, makes a big difference. My suggestion would be for you to lay out a proposal of adding a series of kitesurfing school listings on the talk page and see what other people think about that direction for the article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:00, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Thinking about image policy[edit]

Hi! I hope you don't mind me writing to you here - but you have been ever so helpful to me so far and you seem to have a very in-depth knowledge of the project.

I was wondering why there were so few images on articles so I did a bit of digging and discovered Wikivoyage:Image_policy#Minimal_use_of_images.

"Travellers may be using Wikivoyage from networks with very low bandwidth. In some countries, an internet café with ten computers connected to a single 56k modem is still fairly common" While this is true (although I'm not so sure about the 56k model part :)) and as a member of the Wikimedia team responsible for the site I think about this problem a lot, I also am not sure how up to date this is given the banners on Wikivoyage - these tend to be more bytes than all the other images in the article put together. I think it is a shame that we don't encourage more images. Although images don't tend to be useful during the act of travel itself, images are an important part of the travel experience - they can inspire wonder and lead to people travelling to places they've never been. Not to mention, images - especially free content ones could drive a website up search rankings and provide an easy way for new editors to contribute (using VisualEditor especially which makes adding images a lot easier).

I was curious what your thoughts on this were.

I think this problem should be solved with technology and the policy should change to allow more images. We have several options:

  • Drop the policy and make this a problem of the many people who build the MediaWiki software e.g. a desktop version of this.
  • Similar to the Wikivoyage main page, using templates and gadgets, we could show JavaScript based carousels on each article that show one image to users without JavaScript and for those with JavaScript allow exploration of other images.

Is there any history I should be aware of on this subject? Who would be the best people to engage in such a discussion and where? Jdlrobson (talk) 00:08, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm not a programming geek, so I can't specifically address your ideas about programming and gadgetry, but we did have a very recent policy discussion on what "minimal use of images" does and doesn't mean and whether we should change the policy (in the end, we did not), so I think that's where you should probably look first: Wikivoyage talk:Image policy#Minimal use of images - not appropriate.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:21, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
Jdlrobson, I think the problem of too many images becomes really severe when the page is printed out or converted into pdf. All images will be there, which is an incredible waste of paper. It would be great to get rid of images in the printed version, except for, perhaps, a few important ones (subway maps and such). Otherwise, I think that the amount of displayed images is a matter of taste. For example, we use a lot more photos (but, of course, only good photos) on Russian Wikivoyage, because we believe that visual perception is important to motivate people for traveling. On the other hand, the English-speaking community is much more reserved about the photos, as you can see from the discussion quoted by Ikan above. They simply do not want that many images to appear.
Another idea would be some pop-up window that displays different photos from a given Commons category, because more and more listings are now linked to Wikidata and, thus, to a Commons category. It might be an interesting feature, although of not-too-high importance, I think. --Alexander (talk) 07:07, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for your perspective, Alexander. I think clickable photos would be a great idea and a good way to use our relationship with a sister site to the advantage of both. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:21, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Continuing developments in Talk:Buffalo[edit]

Thanks for your vote of confidence early in the discussion on revising Buffalo's districtification scheme. The discussion has progressed a bit since then and covered quite a lot of new ground, and I wondered if you wouldn't mind chiming in again? I'm on the wrong side of a two-on-one, to be blunt, and the discussion could use a fresh perspective. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:03, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Well, my expertise on the subject is quite limited, but I'll have a look. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:37, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
I don't think you'll like my response too much, but it's sincere. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:26, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Re: Poisonous or venomous[edit]

Poisonous, venomous and toxic are informally often used interchangeably, but technically (medically/biologically) they are not the same and I'd expect a reputable dictionary to be aware of the distinction. In short, it's all in the delivery: animals that can inject toxins by biting or stinging are specifically called venomous, not poisonous. Another way of remembering the difference is: poisonous is passive, venomous is active.

Note that poisonous animals do exist: think of the poison dart frogs or blow-/puffer fish for instance. Such animals are poisonous when touched and/or eaten, but cannot deliberately/actively deliver toxins by biting/stinging, hence they are not venomous.

Hope this helps, -- 23:59, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

It does. Thanks for clarifying. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:21, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Oakland Edit War[edit]

I don't even know how it started, but thanks to you and a few others for stopping the warning box add baloney for Oakland - I think someone was freaked by the news, or just as likely an outright troll convinced that Oakland is one big pile of smoking stereotype - either way, thanks! :-) L. Challenger (talk) 09:13, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

If you'd really like to know how it started, you can look at Talk:Chechnya#Safety in Chechnya. In short, it has very little to do specifically with Oakland. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:21, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Template Mapframe align issue[edit]

  • see Template Mapframe Talk page - 23 pages with broken maps were corrected by Roland and a few by me as issue came about because align=none is not viable in the template any more... Issue was also raised in the Pub - Hope that helps answer your question to Roland -- Have a great day! -- Matroc (talk) 20:46, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
It does. Thanks, Matroc. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:18, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Re: Natural Park of Arrábida deletion[edit]

Ok that makes sense. Can you restore the other sections that are not from Wikipedia? They were copied from a printed flyer that is given to visitors of the park. Enricovedeluce (talk) 19:46, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

I don't think it would be appropriate to restore those sections, either. Fair use and WV:Copyleft don't allow you to copy swathes of text that aren't explicitly in the public domain or covered by Creative Commons licenses, regardless of what kind of credit you give. It would be best for you to summarize and paraphrase bits of content from that flyer, giving credit in one or more edit summaries. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:32, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Cree language in Northern Ontario[edit]

Regarding this edit, it's true that there are many isolated communities in Northern Ontario that speak mainly Cree, and very much a stretch (though not totally false) to characterize Cree as in imminent danger of extinction - it counts a relatively healthy population of about 125,000 native speakers, and while it's in decline like most Amerindian languages, Wikipedia calls it one of the least endangered indigenous languages in North America. Ordinarily I would update the article to indicate that, but I'm currently out of town without internet access except through my phone, and editing WV on mobile is problematic. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:21, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

I will do so and cite this post. Enjoy your travels! Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:24, 27 November 2016 (UTC)


Ikan Kekek, you've recently reverted my edit [1] based on, "We don't divide huge areas of continents into small regions, but instead, just list the countries." This doesn't seem to be the case for Australia and Europe, then why for South Asia? The Punjab is a non-political unit not restricted to the political boarders of neither India or Pakistan and this deserves to be recognized. Kindly mention in the South Asia page. Peeta Singh (talk) 05:22, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Peeta Singh, Australia is not just a continent but a single country, and Europe is a continent. South Asia is a region of Asia, just as Balkans, Baltic states, Benelux, etc. are regions of Europe. And moreover, if you're going to start listing regions of South Asia, you would also have to include Bengal, the Deccan Plain, the Indus Valley, the Thar Desert, and quite a few others - all are regions, but we don't list such regions in sub-continental region articles, because that just confuses the geographic hierarchy we use on this site. Instead, some of them are dealt with as regions at the country level, while others are just dealt with as extraregion articles. We like to keep hierarchies coherent and user-friendly on this site. Mentioning the Punjab on the same page that countries are listed as being in the super-national region of South Asia means privileging it over other regions and doesn't make sense, organizationally. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:40, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
If East Asia can be recognized as a "cultural and geographic region of Asia" then why not Punjab? Peeta Singh (talk) 05:57, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
East Asia is a huge, multi-national region of Asia; Punjab is not. Please read Wikivoyage:Geographical hierarchy. There are many things that you can edit at will (within reason) on this site; geographical hierarchies aren't one of them. They exist in a coherent state for very good reasons. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:02, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Diving in Barbados/Wreck of the Brianna H[edit]

Hi Ikan. There has been a dispute lately between me and another user at the above-linked article and associated talk page. I think I'm in the right, but I would appreciate it if you could perhaps inject yourself into the proceedings as a neutral third party. Thanks. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:11, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:13, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello Ikan. I wanted to thank you for your 2 earlier comments of last night (today UK). I have no dispute with Andre Carrot Flower. He did what he wanted in a prememptory fashion because he could. I swallowed it. I want nothing more ever to do with CarrotFlower and I was about to walk away, but after coming across Ryan and your encouraging remarks I will do my best again, along the lines you have spoken. There ARE proper ways to communicate with volunteers and donors as you 2 have shown. Not If you don't like it "Tough". Johnmartindavies 17:09, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
If I may, my observation is that he got understandably frustrated when you fought back instead of doing what you have now done. Not to sound scolding, I hope, but just as an observation: The pages of destination guides are not the place to make personal remarks of any kind, and edit warring is never a good idea and almost guaranteed to antagonize anyone who's explained an edit you don't like as based on Wikivoyage policy. I will do my best to help prevent the kind of situation that took place this time from recurring, but if it does, it would be helpful to avoid edit warring, copy whichever version you like to your user page, and leave a comment on the article's talk page that addresses the situation, not the particular user who reverted or deleted your edits. But mainly, I'm glad we got past this and that you are still here to make more contributions on behalf of readers who can benefit from them. That, and collaborative editing, are the cornerstones of this site.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:58, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Thank you Ikan, you and Ryan explained to me the way to resolve the differences between trying to work on a useful dive guide and the editorial requirements of WikiVoyage. You didn't wipe my work out without reasonable explanation, threaten me with a userban, and tell me if I didn't like it that was my problem. I will work to make a useful guide to Diving the Wreck of the Brianna H without upsetting people. It should be a good project and I hope other divers will make further contributions. I hope to continue making my modest donation to the Wiki project, not for authoring, but because we all depend on access to good Wiki projects. Best Wishes Johnmartindavies 22:43, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Best wishes to you, and thanks for being helpful and cooperative. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:03, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Colonial hot chocolate[edit]

Hello. I was thinking of the Italian-descended people in Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil etc, but got confused between individual colonists and colonialist government, which as you've pointed out, Italy didn't have in any shape or form in South America. Grazie, --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 02:52, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

I wondered about that. Yeah, there are lots of people of Italian descent in Argentina. If that affected preferences in Italy, that's worth mentioning, but I feel sure it happened overwhelmingly after independence. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:53, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
Well Argentina was of course a rather rich place and a desirable destination for emigration until at lest the 1950s, so there may have been some cross-pollination, but I am not sure Argentina has any cacao culture above and beyond what Europeans brought there. Most of the country is too cold for cacao cultivation, isn't it? Now Argentine beef on the other hand... Hobbitschuster (talk) 09:02, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
Italian influence is very strong in Buenos Aires - many BA taxi drivers dont understand if you dont add the italian enunciation to places you want to go to JarrahTree (talk) 09:27, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Some guidance[edit]


I'm sorry to keep pestering you, but you've had your own run-ins with this user in the past, so you seemed like the one to bring this up to.

I've had my eye on User:Downspec for a while, and I'm at my wit's end here. Just as examples, this is about the umpteenth time he's added a pagebanner that doesn't have a 7:1 aspect ratio; this is the umpteenth time he's copypasted promotional text from a business's official website, this is the umpteenth time he's added Columbus (Wisconsin) to Southwest Wisconsin#Cities in violation of the 7+2 rule, and now he's taken to creating his own subregion articles, completely ignoring the region breakdown hierarchy and then edit warring about it.

Now I'm all for not biting newbies, and I'm all for assuming good faith when we're dealing with violations of fairly arcane and wonkish rules. But, it should be emphasized, these are things that he's been repeatedly counseled about both on his talk page and in numerous edit summaries (too many to link to, but check out the revision history of Columbus (Wisconsin) and Southwest Wisconsin). His pattern of behavior is to respond on his talk page that he understands what's being told to him and will keep policy in mind from now on, and then continue to do the exact same thing as before, as if the talk page conversation never happened.

It seems clear to me that this is more than just a case of a bull-in-a-china-shop newbie who needs a bit of cleaning up after. But, on the other hand, I'm aware that I've had my problems recently with going rough on new users who make mistakes (though I continue to think I was more right than wrong in that case) and I think it would be better to bounce this issue off another user like yourself before taking it to Wikivoyage:User ban nominations or otherwise escalating the situation. What do you think should be done?

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:27, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Hi, Andrew. Your first link didn't go to the right place, but the other links are clear enough, and so was the note you posted to his user talk page. I'd be willing to give him one more chance, but I think it would be fair to warn him that now that policies have been seemingly made amply clear to him, the next step if he continues violating them is to nominate him for a user ban. I will post the warning if you think that might help. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:42, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, Ikan. Hopefully the note you most recently left on his talk page is strong enough medicine, but I'll continue to keep my eye on the situation. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 13:18, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
I'll keep it in mind, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:47, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
Check out the three most recent edits to Southwest Wisconsin. This user has been on his best behavior for a while now, so I'm hesitant to call this an escalation, but it perhaps merits further vigilance. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:52, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps an attempt to catch us napping. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:21, 20 September 2017 (UTC)


Hi Ikan Kekek!

I'm just recovering my email and I notice you left a message on my old account User:Alvintd. For some reasons, I will continue to use this account instead. I really wish to contribute more in the future, as I'm getting myself familiar with the system and visit more places. Regarding Bengkulu, there were several settlements (other sources say they were small kingdoms instead) under the patronage of leader called "datuk". Unfortunately, nobody really knows the history concerning those settlements - they didn't leave any kind of artifact, although their story has always been passed and recounted for generations. I hope it answer your question. Looking forward to other contributions together in the time to come. Best of luck! Vineasca (talk) 15:09, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Of course I'm familiar with the title of "Datuk". I guess this information could be added. And thank you for all of your contributions! Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:19, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Vineasca, did there use to be a somewhat lengthy and interesting "History? subsection in the Bengkulu article, or am I misremembering? If there were a history section with content in it, I would add some kind of paraphrase of the information you shared above. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:59, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Ikan Kekek, I don't think there were any historical information in the article, apart from the short summary on the preface. I believe "History" subsection will be a very nice addition to the article Vineasca (talk) 10:06, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
Maybe I was remembering the Wikipedia article. I don't personally know much about Bengkulu, other than what I learned in Darjah 5-6 in Sekolah Kebangsaan in Malaysia in the 70s and what little I've read since. I thought I remembered the name "Bangkahulu" being used in our textbook. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:08, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
That could be it! I feel quite excited reading your comment, Ikan Kekek, since most Indonesians have no idea where Bengkulu is! Some mistaking it for Bangka or Belitong, some don't even try and guess it's a city in Celebes. Bangkahulu i.e. Muara Bangkahulu is a district in northern part of the city, perhaps it also has got something to do with the current name.Vineasca (talk) 13:51, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
That's interesting. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:38, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Angkor Wat[edit]

I have plans to visit Angkor Wat later this month. The Wikivoyage page was very helpful. Thanks and cheers.- Chandan Guha (talk) 04:41, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

That's good to hear. Have a good time! I have yet to visit Cambodia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:16, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Rio Grande Valley[edit]

So after months of editing the Brownsville (Texas) page, I have finally moved on to edit the Rio Grande Valley page. This is very different from Brownsville, since it is not a city, but a region. I do not know the guidelines or templates that regions on Wikivoyage abide by. Any tips on this? Thanks. De88 (talk) 23:50, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Great! Have a look at Wikivoyage:Region article template, and then if you have more questions, ask in that article's talk page or here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:22, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
As I've started editing the article, I noticed that the "By car" section in the "Get in" and "Get around" sections would be the same. I say this because when I first edited the Brownsville page, I included all the highways leading to the city in the "Get in" section but only mentioned car rental agencies in the "Get around" section. How can I differentiate both sections? Thanks in advance and I hope you had a great Christmas! De88 (talk) 08:01, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
I indeed had a good day and ate entirely too much of the chicken my girlfriend made. I hope you had a good day, too.
Just a brainstorm: Even if the highways are the same in both sections, I think in the "Get in" section, you would concentrate on which highways to take from Cities A, B and C outside the area into the region, while in the "Get around" section, you would mention which roads go from City X to City Y, City Y to City Z and so on, within the region. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:15, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
Thank you so much for this. Really helps. My parents made brisket and I've been eating it as a sandwich. Weird combination, but it is so good. Also, many thanks for all the help you've given me since contributing on here. Your help does not go unnoticed. De88 (talk) 08:43, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
You're welcome. It's always a pleasure when a new user shows up and makes an impact! Brisket sandwiches are nothing strange to a New York Jew like me. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:48, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
It's really nice to know that I've made some sort of impact on here. I do wonder, there is this other travel guide website called "Wikitravel", what is its connection to "Wikivoyage"? I actually hated brisket but I somehow ended up loving it. I think it's just the Texan in me. De88 (talk) 20:41, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
WV:Wikivoyage and Wikitravel will give you a good overview of that history. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:04, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. I always wondered how both sites worked together. I say this because both sites have the same info on most articles. Also, I am not sure about this but locals in the area usually capitalize the words "Mexican Nationals". I do not know if they are correct or if it is indeed "Mexican nationals". De88 (talk) 01:01, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
If that's local usage, I won't be a stick-in-the-mud about it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:56, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Brianna H.[edit]

       Hello Ikan

I've started re-developing the guide to diving the Brianna H.

I've inserted a paragraph that should not be neccessary for the article, but for the education of editors who are not currently diving.

"When divers are introduced to a new wreck they generally like to know as much as possible about the unfortunate ship before it sank, the circumstances leading up to the sinking, and about any casualties so as to accord them proper respect. It can be quite disturbing to unexpectedly encounter a human skull on a wreck, as happened to a friend of mine because of inadequate information. Thus any documented information should be as complete as possible, not truncated for the benefit of editors not currently diving. Furthermore a Dive Guide carries a greater risk of Safety considerations and litigation than a pleasant stroll around Provincetown, Massechusetts."

I've added this advice because my introduction to the Brianna H, based on divers preferences was mutilated by the Wikivoyage Editor.

I would not expect to use this paragraph in a definitive version but as a temporary development. Can you kindly try and explain this point to any colleague who finds it too demanding.

I will make the rest of the guide more focussed but also informative to divers. Best Wishes for Christmas. Johnmartindavies 20:53, 23 December 2016 (UTC). Johnmartindavies 21:48, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Johnmartindavies, thanks for contacting me, and Merry Christmas to you.
Your points are definitely well taken, but I'll have a look at how much information you included, to see whether I think it might be better to refer readers somewhere else (Wikipedia?) for more exhaustive background. However, there is a problem with your phrasing. Wikivoyage does not permit the use of first person pronouns or blog-like language, so please edit accordingly.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:58, 24 December 2016 (UTC)


Hi Ikan Kekek,

I was updating Roseau on wikitravel and wikivoyage because both were virtually identical and both had much wrong or outdated information. Instead of clicking "add listing" should I type in the information manually using the format given in Template:Listing?

Also, if an edit is mine; is it alright if it appears on both wikivoyage and wikitravel?

Anax44 (talk) 02:42, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

You're within your rights under copyright/copyleft laws, if you clearly state it as such in your edit summary, but it's still problematic if it's phrased the same way on both sites, because Google imposes a penalty in search results for copying. But yeah, you need to use the listing template formats. Look at WV:Listings. There are somewhat different templates for different kinds of listings. But if you use the wrong template, someone else can always fix that.
All the best, and Merry Christmas or Happy Chanukah if you celebrate either or both holidays,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:29, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

No problem. I could keep the phrasing different without changing the context of the content.

Thanks a lot and Happy Holidays to you too.

Anax44 (talk) 02:45, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks so much for understanding and being so constructive and helpful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:58, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

No booking agencies please[edit]

This is about Caledonian Way After your explanations, I said: I accept that but I do NOT agree. Do you understand this? Well, I have included a link to a Spanish side as well but you reverted. Well, I think the best think you can do it's use the English link don't you? —The preceding comment was added by Edinside (talkcontribs)

I'm honestly not sure I understand you, no. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:15, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you...[edit]

Thank you so much Ikan Kekek for granting me autopatrolled rights )) But what do they actually mean on English Wikivoyage? I really didn't know that here you have sth. like this, because in the revision history of articles, there are no marked and unmarked versions displayed, unlike in Russian wikipedia for example. --A.Savin (talk) 18:15, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

All it actually means is that when people are patrolling new edits, yours wont come up with an "!" Basically, it means that admins don't think your work needs close supervision. And thanks for editing here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:55, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your response on my talk page[edit]

I cancelled my question on the main page because on re-reading the instructions for that page, it became apparent that the Munich talk page was a better place to post the question - which I have done. Thanks for the response. Haven't yet figured out how to / what the right ettiquette is for responding to entries on the talk page - which is why I'm posting here. --Kenneth Stephen (talk) 17:20, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

You should feel free to reply to messages posted on your talk page by simply posting below the message. Some people might want you to ping them by including a link to their name, like so (without the "nowiki" code): [[User:Kenneth Stephen|Kenneth Stephen]]. However, that's unnecessary for me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:26, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

PDF download[edit]

Ciao Ikan

Thank you for your continued support.

I was wondering whether it might be worth a discussion for the future of WikiVoyage to also add maps from the GPS points of a place to the beginning or end of an article when downloading it as PDF, like Lonely Planet and others are doing(?)

I know it is possible to download the GPS marker file, however, I believe, not many people are firm with this kind of thing. At the same time, could it be meaningful to have a more direct download icon to each articel. I believe many people have problems finding the PDF link on the left side and might just print out each page, which add a lot of burden on the environment.

Cheers Ceever (talk) 17:39, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Ceever. This strikes me as a good thought; however, I'm not a technical expert. I'd suggest bringing this up at the Travellers' pub and asking if there's interest in doing this, what page would be the best place to work out planning and implementation for it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:51, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Templates vs. tags[edit]

Re: this edit, it looks like we need to update the boilerplate text at Template:Style, because that was a direct copy and paste on my part. I'd do it myself, but I'm editing via mobile on my break at work, and I'll probably have forgotten all about this by the time I get home. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:29, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

I see. I'll take care of it. thanks, Andrew. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:44, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
Done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:46, 8 January 2017 (UTC)


I see you changed "outport" to "outpost" here. "Outport" is correct. An outport is a small coastal fishing village. These were very common in Newfoundland and Labrador, where they were built in often far out-of-the-way locations to support a subsistence fishery. Outside St. John's (and maybe Corner Brook) cities are rare in Newfoundland and most communities along the coastline are tiny outports. K7L (talk) 13:03, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. I wasn't completely sure about that edit, but I had never heard of an "outport" and get a wavy error for it on my computer (which admittedly is true for many other words), so I plunged forward. Thanks for correcting this and letting me know. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:54, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps the concept is regional, w:Newfoundland outport. Firefox's spell check extension doesn't like it in any language: English (en-gb), Canadian eh? (en-ca), American (en-us) but certainly it exists in Canada. K7L (talk) 17:50, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
Firefox's dictionary is very limited. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:08, 18 January 2017 (UTC)


Hi Ikan, I substituted the rated image File:Berlin Museumsinsel Fernsehturm.jpg with the image File:Bode Museum.jpg on the page Berlin, because the photographer of the first image aggressively sues people who make mistakes with the license. See [2] [3] [4] [5]. --Sebastian Wallroth (talk) 18:46, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of this. He surely won't try to sue Wikivoyage, but I can understand why you'd want to substitute another image and thereby deny him publicity. Here are all the Quality Images of the Bode-Museum. The one you chose also looks like a likely QI if nominated, but I figure, why not take one that's already a QI? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:00, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

'I've always seen "checkpoint" as one word' (Nablus)[edit]

Don't think I am doing this intentionally. Most of the work is just reshuffling content, to have a more readable structure, so it has been there before. ;-) Ceever (talk) 13:45, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm neither assuming that you're responsible for everything I'm seeing and editing, nor that it's intentional. Don't worry, and thanks for all your work! Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:33, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Al Ruwais Confusion[edit]


regarding the list addition for Anantara Sir Bani Yas resort.

There are two Al Ruwais in middle east . one in Qatar also called (Ar Ru'ays) and one in Abu dhabi. There is no page for Abu Dhabi version. That's why I added it to abu dhabi section. Shall I create a page for Sir Bani Yas island and add the listing.?

BTW Thanks for the tips. —The preceding comment was added by User:BradSmith2017 (talkcontribs)

Hello BradSmith2017, and thanks for writing. Sorry for being confused, myself. If there's enough to see, do, eat and so forth in Sir Bani Yas Island for it to sustain its own article, by all means start one, presumably using the WV:Small city article template. But first, please look at WV:What is an article and consider whether the island meets any of the tests there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:36, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

a helping hand[edit]

how can I help? --Garvysolaz (talk) 21:47, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Welcome! I'll post to your user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:53, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
thank you. --Garvysolaz (talk) 21:54, 27 January 2017 (UTC)


Thanks for your mediation at Talk:Gaspé Peninsula. We've worked out our problems now. Regards, Ground Zero (talk) 16:43, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

I followed that. User:AndreCarrotflower is one of the very best content providers and writers on the site, and I also greatly appreciate and value your work. Thanks for working for the benefit of the site, the reader and the traveler. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:45, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Outline articles[edit]

Hi there. Sorry for the Sabbath/Shabbat mistake ... search and replace issue.

Anyhow, I noticed for many Israel articles they are flagged as outline ... which I quite do not understand because they are quite complete and even some remote regions like Ceasarea just do not allow much more information. So, who actually decides what is an outline and what not? Can we remove some of the outline flags for some articles?

Thanks Ceever (talk) 08:54, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

On Sabbath/Shabbat, that was obviously an unintentional error, and we all make those sometimes.
On your other question: Anyone can unilaterally change the status of an article, except for making an article a Star or destarring it, both of which have to be discussed. For regions, an issue is that the cities linked to those articles (or at least the most important ones, however we're defining that) have to be at least Usable for the region article to be Usable, but just follow the guidelines at WV:Article status and more specifically at Wikivoyage:City guide status, Wikivoyage:Region guide status, Wikivoyage:Park guide status, etc., and plunge forward! Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:11, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
In general a city can be promoted to "usable" as soon as it has a sleep and eat listing (which preferably should be more than a name and a weblink) as well as reasonable content in see and/or do and a workable description in "get in" (even if it is just "take the route xyz from city A" - if that's all there is to say, fine). Region articles, as mentioned, are a bit more complex. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:43, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
Hobbitschuster is right, provided that at least one "Sleep" and one "Eat" listing include contact information. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:33, 30 January 2017 (UTC)


Sihanoukville , Hi I have removed pronouns Thanks StekirStekira (talk) 04:56, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:12, 12 February 2017 (UTC)


your welcome bro. i have not learned how to communicate with other users. i would like to play an active roll to improve the pages in my region. i'll appreciate any help. —The preceding comment was added by Naeinsun (talkcontribs)

I will help with copy editing, which is all I can do since I have yet to have the pleasure of visiting Iran. Just a small thing: On Wikis like this, we "sign" our posts on talk pages (only, not destination articles) by typing 4 tildes (~) in a row at the end of each post. Anyway, thanks again, and please keep going. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:39, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Bali article should be updated[edit]

China tourists growth is awesome. Due to severe oversupply of hotel in Bali, so you can get 4 stars hotel between $18 to $25 in Kuta, Legian and Seminyak whenever you want, except in Ied holiday season and it makes relatively no long peak seasons anymore. China tourists prefer beaches and attractions. All tourists prefer in culture is only 22 percent. If Bali article is not updated, it will mislead the readers and not inline with the 'right quality' of the star article. I don't know who responsible of the misleading. I guess you are not the person also. I always worry about it. Star article, but mislead. If someone know well aboput situations, maybe will booking hotel in last minutes deals. I hope someone who know well about Bali can make the star article more accurate.Gsarwa (talk) 17:39, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Kawan, you really like to be helpful, but in my opinion, you have not improved your standard of English noticeably at all since you've started editing here. You might do some work on that, because when you post things that require extensive edits for basic grammar, spelling and phrasing, it's a lot of work. If you want to do the work, there are plenty of English as a Second or Foreign Language sites online. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:45, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
I try to improve my writing, and I hope it will make you (midget=sangat sedikit) satisfy. Please edit, if neccessary or reverted it and I don't mind about it. Thank You.Gsarwa (talk) 02:49, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Satisfy me or make me satisfied. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:48, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
How, if I write in command style, rather than in narrative style. Please your suggestion. Thanks a lot in advance.Gsarwa (talk) 05:02, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Which part? "Please edit, or if necessary, revert it, and I won't mind"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:11, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
I mean when I write for another articles. Sorry, maybe it should be in another section. If command style is sufficient, certainly I will write more in command style rather than narrative style. Maybe narrative style is more conviniences to read, but command style with short sentence should clear, and not use 'kata berbunga-bunga' such as rudimentary instead of very bad.Gsarwa (talk) 06:08, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Most of the content in Wikivoyage articles should be a narrative. That's not the issue. The issue is that your writing has all kinds of mistakes in it, regardless of what tone you're trying to use. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:18, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Ok, thank you so much fellow/kawan, I understand. I'll try to be a 'narrative writer' as I can, but to combine several sentences to a long sentence, moreover if there are 'anak kalimat dan anak kalimat lagi' (complex sentence) maybe I should try harder.Gsarwa (talk) 07:01, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Exactly. Lagi baik mudah dan pendek selalu. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:24, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

An award for you![edit]

Barncompass.png The Wikivoyage Barncompass
Hi, I noticed that you posted some information relating to Paramakatoi. Most of it is accurate but I think your tour guide was hiding all the shops in Paramakatoi which sell beer from you. Hope you don't mind me making a few changes to your details. Pk Girl (talk) 01:52, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
I don't think I posted information, as I don't know even where that place is. I presumably would have done some copy editing. Please correct and update at will! Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:00, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

animal ethics[edit]

Not sure about Special:Diff/3155095/3155430; hunting and recreational shooting currently point to the same page (the former being a redirect) so there might not be much point in linking both at the moment. There was a Wikivoyage:Requested articles proposal to create hunting as its own topic but nothing's been done with that idea. K7L (talk) 06:26, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

My mistake. I will edit out the link. Thanks for pointing out the error. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:50, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Should we, though? I mean create hunting as its own topic? Not all hunting is done with firearms, after all (though some forms of non-firearm hunting are even more controversial and sometimes illegal than those that do employ firearms) Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:51, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
There's no article on hunting? There's no reason why there shouldn't be one. It's not something I do, so I wouldn't be able to help much, but if you'd like to start such an article, go ahead. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:13, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Yet another testament to the fact that our authorship demographics skew urban... Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:04, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
I also don't take part in hunting, but I felt Animal Ethics had potential to be too judgemental by the 'urban elites'. Hard to say where the line should be drawn, since a mid-Westerner hunting for Elk for their fridge is understandable whereas a dentist shooting a rare Lion for egotistical reasons less so. I would personally feel that anyone travelling for hunting is on morally shaky ground (although travel for fishing is actually quite understandable). Sorry for rambling! Andrewssi2 (talk) 21:48, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Depends how far they're traveling. Driving a couple of hours seems legitimate to me. Also, Hobbitschuster, you already knew I live in New York City, right? But I was a village kid in Malaysia for 2 years, where I gathered a lot of wild plants, dug for clams and went fishing. However, I did not hunt. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:02, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, I know. I actually grew up in a suburb and was a Boy Scout in my youth, but I am as distant from agriculture and hunting as can be. Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:09, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
I was unsuccessful in my attempt to grow a watermelon - all my classmates' watermelon plants were healthy, whereas mine somehow shrivelled up in the sun and died. However, I was successful in raising chickens. So I think I was pretty close to agriculture. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:15, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Dead Sea (Israel and the West Bank) - a region not a city?[edit]

Hi there, should I convert the Dead Sea (Israel and the West Bank) into a region? The southern part is also mentioned in the Israel article as a region. Also it feels a little strange having Ein Gedi as part of Negev instead of the Dead Sea. Ceever (talk) 12:30, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

I guess the issue with that is that part of the region is outside of Israel proper. That would make it an extra-hierarchical region. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:37, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
Ok, did that. But now at the bottom of Ein Gedi a weird sign appears. Does it mean I cannot declare Ein Gedi as part of the Dead Sea? Ceever (talk)
It doesn't work in Wikivoyage's system of WV:Breadcrumb navigation to put a place only in an extra-hierarchical region. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:35, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Puerto Rico[edit]

I was trying to prevent the Telstra person making that edit to Puerto Rico. Please see their rabid attempts here.

I could somewhat understand accepting useful edits from a banned user, but this edit is so obvious and so useless I really saw no downside in reverting it. I guess this is a difference of opinion. Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:28, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

If you feel strongly about it, revert again and I won't complain. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:33, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Wikivoyage:Votes for deletion/March 2017[edit]

Dear IK, I was surprised to see many old deletion nomination entries on VfD page so I closed several. I believe I haven't made any mistake but I would appreciate if you could give a quick glance at the closure nominations. Thank you. --Saqib (talk) 11:30, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Hi, Saqib. It looks OK to me, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:34, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for quick reply. I hope life is going good for you. --Saqib (talk) 11:37, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
Well, the socio-political situation here is dangerous and scary, but for now, I'm OK. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:51, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

An award for you![edit]

Barncompass.png The Wikivoyage Barncompass
For your unflagging vigilance in the neverending struggle against Extremely Annoying Unnecessary Capitalization. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:46, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
Well deserved. IK is a great Wikivoyage! "Thanks for all your hard work it is much appreciated..." --Saqib (talk) 18:51, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, guys. It seems like a thankless, tedious job a lot of the time, so some appreciation helps. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:29, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
I can only add to that, that your contributions are always valuable and thought through even in the rare instances I disagree with you. Fixing capitalization is a particularly tedious job, but if we want to be the best most complete travel guide, such "minor" issues are not, in fact, minor. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:32, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
No, as the song says, the little things mean a lot. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:35, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
And thanks for the nice words. Your efforts are appreciated, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:36, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Problem users...[edit]

They didn't take the hint.

Amusing as it is, I don't see them doing anything else. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:25, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Well they seem to be unaware of anything, regardless I left them a message. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:43, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
At least that was quick. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:25, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Speedy Fixes[edit]

I was looking for my error and couldn't find it. Now I now why. Your attentiveness is appreciated but I am hesitant to do any more editing for fear of making a mistake and not finding it quickly enough to suit. Bobdog54 (talk) 23:35, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Please don't hesitate! Everyone makes mistakes. Sorry if you took my edit summary the wrong way. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:50, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you.[edit]

Hello Ikan, just a short note to thank you for your welcoming message and helpful links. JonzJoy (talk) 02:58, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

You're most welcome. Glad to have you here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:26, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Costa Adeje[edit]

Cheers, but I created the Costa Adeje page with content from Los Cristianos here on Wikivoyage not Wikitravel.--Darrelljon (talk) 16:24, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

I see. Well, the first search result I got when plugging in your phrasings was Wikitravel:Los Cristianos and not the Wikivoyage article, which is in poor shape and contains badly-formatted, somewhat touty-sounding text, most of which is unchanged since the time when there was no Wikivoyage in 2012. And in any case, it's not useful for two Wikivoyage articles to have so much identical phrasing, and the other remarks I made about Wikivoyage policy and style relate to the content of Los Cristianos, too. If you're willing to devote the time, my suggestion would be to overhaul Los Cristianos to put it in line with Wikivoyage policy and style and then restart a separate Costa Adeje page if there's sufficient different content to put into it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:00, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Help on Deletion policy[edit]

Hi Ikan. Thank you for your guidance. I find two stubs, which is about a particular attraction. As per Wikivoyage policy. It is not for the specific attraction. So, If we need to delete. Should I use VFG or SPEEDY. I saw your comment to use Redirect. Will it be ok if redirected? Sulthan90 (talk) 05:20, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Redirection is fine and doesn't require a post at vfd, though it should be discussed at the redirection candidate's talk page, if you think the proposal to redirect might be controversial. I think it probably makes sense to turn Basara into a redirect, and no-one will complain if you do, but where do you propose to redirect it to? As for Mwasalat, if you're concerned that it's a private company (is it?) and that its search term should be simply deleted, nominate the article for deletion at vfd, but I think that there is useful information to summarize and put in the Oman article, where I suggest redirecting the article after all useful content is gleaned from it. Also note that there are precedents for turning the names of private companies, such as airlines, into redirects, rather than deleting the former articles about them outright. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:25, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for detailed explanation. Mwasalat is Govt. owned Bus company of Oman. I will make Redirect towards Concern pages after Extracting information into that concern pages. Sulthan90 (talk) 06:28, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
Excellent. Thank you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:54, 24 March 2017 (UTC)


Hi I am trying to get active again here. Could you please watch over my edits and let me know if I am doing ok? I've been a little out of touch! Ravikiran (talk) 09:48, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

OK, sure, though I see no reason to be concerned about any edit you'd make. Glad to see you! Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:25, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

An impasse[edit]

Hi Ikan. Hobbitschuster and I seem to be at loggerheads on the issue of Kassel vs. Wernigerode for OtBP next month. I know you're busy with offwiki stuff lately, but when you get a free minute, it would be very helpful if you could look over this discussion in the Pub and give your two cents.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:08, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Done, but your last argument was so strong that it would seem hard to argue effectively against it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:07, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Anglos not eating fish & chips[edit]

That's the point. It's only a commonly eaten food among English Anglos. Similarly, spicy food is not really common in - say - Venezuela. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:14, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

But it's not too common in the U.S., thereby defeating your point. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:18, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Well it also an attempt to approach the situation with some levity. But I guess you're right... Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:24, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Bamboo Bar[edit]

Dear Ikan,

I am unaware of the history with this listing. I am trying to add Bamboo as I feel it is an important place. One of few 24/7 bars here in Cambodia, Sihanoukville. But each time I do I get a message from you that you removed it.

Could you tell me how to get this listing up? And what the cause of the blacklisting is? I don't understand these past problems.

Any help would be appreciated.

Interpidexplorer (talk) 06:39, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Please start a discussion at Talk:Sihanoukville. We need a consensus to list this place; it's not just up to me. But I would recommend for you to read the prior discussion on that talk page and also for you to review the article's history. It's also important to read Wikivoyage:Don't tout, as even people who are merely enthusiastic customers need to conform to those policy guidelines. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:45, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

South Asia Image[edit]

Hello Ikan,

I am undoing your edits and please find the explanation below. Technically, there is no reference for the current map and thus brings in the question about its correctness.

You seem to be unaware of the geographical boundaries of countries in South Asia. Please see the map of India and the recent rule that the Government of India passed. There is a 10 Billion Rupees fine and 7 year jail term if the map is wrongly depicted of India, especially when the website is accessed in India. Do you guarantee that the map/page when seen from Indian IP address shows the map of India as ordered by the government of India? You have to know about these things before arguing about the correctness of the current map. There is no source claiming the current map to be correct. —The preceding comment was added by Wikigura (talkcontribs)

First of all, please sign your posts here by typing 4 tildes (~) at the end of messages on talk pages. Secondly, please read welcome, Wikipedians. This is Wikivoyage, not Wikipedia. No reference is required here. And the laws of India are no more in force when decreeing what the de facto boundaries are than the laws of Pakistan or China, the two other countries that in fact, regardless of any fines in India, occupy parts of Kashmir. You will not win this argument on this site, and if you continue edit warring, it will become necessary to block your account. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:49, 4 May 2017 (UTC)


Hi, I am a native that has been editing the Wikivoyage article that others had ambiguously screwed up. BulbAtop (talk) 21:46, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Much appreciated. Just please give reasons for non-obvious edits by typing them into your edit summary (the "Summary" bar below your edit screen), or if they're too long to put there, note them at Talk:Jamaica. Please carry on!
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:54, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Dubai/Jumeirah is large[edit]

Dear Ikan, Regarding the edit summary "Copy editing. Cover the interest of the marina as a whole elsewhere (probably in "See"?)." of you edit 3198098. Actually, I was thinking that Dubai/Jumeirah is large compared to other Dubai districts, in both items and surface: one suggestion can be to split in two areas, as there is few interesting things between Dubai Water Canal and Burj al-Arba / Mall of the Emirates (empty area, mainly residential?). Regards, --Jeanot (talk) 10:27, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Hi, Jeanot. I actually don't know much about Dubai, having merely landed and changed planes at Dubai Airport twice. All I was reacting to was discussing the area in a listing for a mall, rather than in "See" or some other more general section ("Understand"?). Please make your proposal at Talk:Dubai, where others who know Dubai can give their opinions. Thanks a lot for caring enough to help make this guide as good as possible for travelers!
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:02, 8 May 2017 (UTC)


I hadn't realized Ryan had resigned his bureaucratship, but since he has that leaves only me as an active 'crat on Wikivoyage. Would you be willing to let me nominate you for the job? We could really use two, just in case. The job is not hard; you just have to flip an admin bit once in a blue moon. Powers (talk) 00:23, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Are there any other powers, duties or expectation I should know about? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:29, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
No, the only additional permissions bureaucrats get are status flipping. We can make a user a bureaucrat, and we can add and remove administrator and bot flags. That's literally it. See Wikivoyage:Bureaucrats and meta:Bureaucrats. I don't think I've taken a 'crat action since the last successful admin nomination, which was months ago. All we need is someone whom the community trusts not to go rogue. =) Powers (talk) 14:44, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
I see two other responsibilities, which I might lean on you for or need further instruction on if they come up:
That said, I'm fine with this. Go ahead and nominate me, and thanks for the confidence, which I of course will not abuse. If my username starts granting Admin status willy-nilly, someone would have hacked my account. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:12, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Well, hacking is a concern. We would need to trust you to keep your login secure, to the extent practical of course.
The username change is a legacy item that no longer applies, as you can see at Wikivoyage:Changing username. Bot status is just a checkbox on the user permissions page, nothing weird there.
-- Powers (talk) 17:04, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
To date (knock on wood or whatever), my accounts have never been hacked on any site. How do you go about determining that it's safe to assign a bot? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:49, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Bots have to be approved by the community, just like admins do. All a bureaucrat does is flip the switch when the community says it's okay. Powers (talk) 23:35, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
Maybe it's been so long since a new bot was approved that I forgot the procedure. I guess there's a separate bot nominations board? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:40, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
Wikivoyage:Script nominations. K7L (talk) 11:40, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, K7L. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:21, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry for the inexcusable delay in granting your bureaucrat privileges. Consider it an apt illustration of why I felt it was necessary to have a second active bureaucrat. You now have the key to the mop-and-broom closet and can distribute them as necessary. I recommend starting with the two active admin nominations. =) Powers (talk) 20:36, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, and as far as I'm concerned, no need whatsoever for any apology. I will get on it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:46, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
Congratulations on your successful RfB! Jianhui67 (talk) 12:54, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, Jianhui67. Nice to see you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:58, 26 June 2017 (UTC)


I appreciated the welcome message and the useful articles for beginners Ikan Kekek! --Labraun90 (talk) 22:04, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

You're most welcome! By the way, to credit Wikipedia, it's sufficient to write something like "Added text from [name of article]" in your edit summary, which you can type in the "Summary" box under your edit screen. But your impulse was correct: Text copied, paraphrased or summarized from Wikipedia does need to be cited. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:23, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Inconsequential follow-up edits[edit]

I wonder if you had ever considered the potential consequences of your apparent tendency to jump on new edits to make small 'corrections' or inconsequential follow-up edits? Noting such actions after some of my edits I had a look at your edit history, and you do this very, very often. As a wiki it is accepted that articles are in constant flux, but you frequently make minor edits immediately after others and irrespective of the overall value to the articles. It is almost as if you enjoy grading people's contributions and have a desire to 'have the last word'. Nevertheless, whatever your motivations such actions are unwelcoming to people and do not encourage ongoing contributions. —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)

Minor corrections to bring contributions in line with site standards should be seen as welcoming, not off-putting. It means your contribution was valuable and deserves to look its best. Powers (talk) 15:30, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
Exactly. Why would you be insulted by small touch-ups to your contributions of content? And because this IP has no other contributions than this post, I have no idea specifically what you're referring to, but anyone who participates on Wikis needs not to project the kinds of insecurities about "grading" or "having the last word" that you did above. No-one is graded on Wikis, and no-one has the last word. And the answer is, I'm concerned about the effects of minor edits only in the cases of people who've already been disturbed by them. My hope is that everyone else would understand what a Wiki is and feel fine about it, just as I feel happy when people do followup edits on my contributions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:29, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Oxford (Pennsylvania)[edit]

Hi Ikan, sorry for redirecting the article without discussing it. I only saw the history page and noticed that there were no substantive edits made over the last 5 years and decided to plunge forward without checking the talk page. It was a mistake on my part to not find out if there was consensus. Anyway, thanks for making the city usable now. Gizza (roam) 23:24, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Sure thing, and no problem. It was because of your redirect attempt that I was spurred into action, so it ended up as a net positive. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:25, 16 May 2017 (UTC)


Routebox Question[edit]

Good evening, Ikan!

I thank you for helping me out with my article by clarifying some things that I made cloudy in my Gering article.

Now, I have built a route box, and I tried to follow the appropriate coding, but the Nebraska 71 image does not show up. May you guide me? 00:49, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Glad to help. I'm not too familiar with routebox format, but if you copy relevant code from the Omaha guide and edit it with an eye toward the instructions at Wikivoyage:Routebox navigation#Templates, that should work. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:58, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

About Health[edit]

Due to a shortage on time, I couldn't list it. But I will list it now. Ciao, 00:55, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Good, a listing for the local clinic could be helpful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:58, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Dubai edits[edit]

Dear Ikan, Regarding the edit summary "Detouted. Please note that English-language Wikivoyage does not use ALL CAPS except for acronyms like UNESCO. I know standards are different in French." of you edit 3206804. In Dubai Festival City's waterfront and elsewhere, they use IMAGINE: I was expecting it will be more easily to be recognised by travellers in ALL CAPS... Regards, --Jeanot (talk) 09:02, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

You could be right, but English-language Wikivoyage policy, as I understand it, is not to respect the wishes of companies that want use to use all caps for their names, unless perhaps their names are genuinely acronyms, such as in the case of ARAMCO (Arab-American Oil Company), and maybe not even then. This might be worth more discussion at Talk:Dubai/Deira, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:07, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
OK, got it. "Imagine" is visibly not an acronym. --Jeanot (talk) 09:17, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
Right. But your point of view is valid and might be worth a discussion on Talk:Dubai/Deira. I'd take no position (supporting or opposing) in the discussion but would support your starting a discussion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:42, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Cheyenne Map Issues[edit]

Good morning, sorry to bother you. Recently, I have taken notice that even though all the GeoRef is in the proper place, and is all centralized, (besides terry bison ranch), the map is shifted to the south west, making it an inconvenience. I'm all ears on what have gone wrong, and I'll fix it. Have a nice Saturday, AUTO SIGNATURE: If you need help with anything, visit my talk page, or my very helpful Homepage. Signed, 14:37, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

The {{mapframe}} template controls (lat,long) and zoom for the on-page map. That's separate from the {{geo}} template at the end of the page. Apparently leaving these fields blank on the mapframe template will cause the position to be determined automatically to fit all the points of interest in the frame? K7L (talk) 19:14, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
K7L, thanks for fielding this question. I don't really know much of anything about map-making on this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:29, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Hello, everybody! If you'd like to discuss anything with me, please post new topics at the bottom of the page and sign the posts with 4 tildes (the ~ key) in a row. Thanks!

Oxford: Addition of an app[edit]

Hi Ikan, Thanks for editing my entry (listing an app). New to the system, I subsequently learnt that tracking to urls is not permitted. This has been removed. However, the entry is still as useful and provides the same facility as links to books - its just that these are a new source of reference. TravelExpertApps (talk) 10:56, 29 May 2017 (UTC)Matt N.

It may be OK to list it, but let's have a discussion at Talk:Oxford and see if a consensus can develop to support a listing. I am willing to support whatever a consensus agrees to, but I don't think the app should be listed until or unless a consensus agrees.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:00, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Sounds good. Thanks Ikan.Matt Nicholson (talk) 11:10, 29 May 2017 (UTC)


ሄሎ Ikan, እኔ wikivoyage ወደ ባላርድ ሸለቆ ለማከል የ እርዳታ ያስፈልገናል. እኔ wikivoyage ሁሉ መንደሮች መጨመር እፈልጋለሁ. ቀደም ብዬ እንደ እኔ, ይህንን አርትዕ እርዳታ እባክህ. ባይ. —The preceding comment was added by Senpi (talkcontribs)

That explains everything! User:Senpi (and please sign your talk page posts with 4 tildes [~]), are you a troll, or did you make a mistake? Either way, I'm not going to use Google Translate to try to understand an English Wikivoyage talk page post in what, Amharic? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:06, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Just trickin' you, I am from Ethiopia, I don't live there. 12-year-olds (me) have strange senses of humor.

Senpi (talk) 13:18, 7 June 2017 (UTC)User:Senpi

I could reply in Malay...Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:26, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Wikimedia blog post?[edit]

Hi Ikan,

I work with the Wikimedia Foundation on their official blog. When I'm not working, I edit on the English Wikipedia as The ed17.

I'm writing today to see if you'd like to write a "Why I" post for the blog. It's an irregular series that aims to bring out the voices of content creators like you. I'm hoping that you will be willing to write a few hundred words on why you edit Wikivoyage, a project we don't feature enough on the blog.

What do you think? Thank you for your time. Ed Erhart (WMF) (talk) 18:15, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for asking, Ed Erhart (WMF). I'll think about it. When would I have to let you know? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:07, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
There's no particular hurry—say next week sometime? Ed Erhart (WMF) (talk) 19:15, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
Alright. I'll be honest, though: Editing here is a hobby of mine. It has some practical use when I travel, which is usually 2-4 weeks per year, but when I edit here, for the most part, I would probably benefit more tangibly from doing something else I'm procrastinating on. So while I'm very good at recent changes patrol, I'm not so sure I'm the best person to make a statement about why I edit here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:33, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
I may be able to write about my life-long fascination with the world and my position in relation to all other parts of it, though. Part of me would almost always rather be somewhere else, even though I have real roots, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:41, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Your edit comment at Cheyenne[edit]

Okay, you got me, I was a little harsh, and you tested me on your change. Well, here's the facts:

  1. You could have erased my listing because it had grammar problems, but you just repaired the error, and it was still there.
  2. You made a minor edit and it wasn't persecution.
  3. I do thank you for the edit, and I wouldn't look on it wrong.

Funny how you can put the wrong words out and choke on it, and someone will make an example of you. Well, I apologise for not choosing the right stuff when writing [[ProjectPage:2018 Miniature Revitilization Project Style]] 23:10, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

The thing is, you've had a lot of latitude, yet you've spoken of persecution. It's pretty perplexing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:00, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
What do you mean by latitude? Now that's perplexing. 18:37, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
Let's put it this way: Your behavior on your user page has been pretty unusual. Best not to pursue this line of discussion too far. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:07, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

More languages in Babel[edit]

Hi Ikan, I can speak both basic Amharic and basic Tigrinya, but there is currently no Babel coverage for both of those languages. Please help me create one or the other.

Senpi (talk) 13:31, 7 June 2017 (UTC)User:Senpi

I don't know how to do that. Does Wikipedia have codes you could import? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:25, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

More problems with the Cheyenne IP editor[edit]

Have a look at this.

I'm at a loss with how to respond to this user's completely perplexing behavior. I'm not ready to call it vandalism or bad faith, but clearly we're seeing a progression into a more and more problematic pattern. What do you think should be done? I certainly have no clue.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:48, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm kind of at a loss, too. Very strange. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:29, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
I hate to harp on this issue, but this has got to be the most annoying user I've come across in a long time. In addition to all of the above, every time I try to clean up the messes he leaves behind he makes a federal case out of it, no matter how carefully I try to explain policy to him (in both my edit summaries and the replies on my talk page), and now he's taken to personally attacking me on other users' talk pages. It's frustrating because none of these things by themselves are serious enough to put him in userban territory, yet the constant defensive nitpicking makes it a real chore to sweep up the broken china left on the shop floor by this bull.
Come to think of it, this reminds me very much of the problems we were having a while back with the editor on the Columbus (Wisconsin) article. Those two, along with a few others I've come across, seem to fall into a distinct subcategory of problem user for which policy doesn't prescribe a particular course of action: it's not vandalism, not trolling, not quite incivility; they're good-faith edits, but executed with a horrible incompetence that doesn't seem to respond at all to any efforts at educating the user on policy. Should I perhaps take my concerns to Wikivoyage talk:How to handle unwanted edits and try to come to some consensus on guidelines for how to deal with such users, or is there some other solution you can think of that would be justifiable through current policy (or at least unlikely to incur objections from other editors)?
-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:14, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
I think it's perfectly reasonable for you to lay out this case at Wikivoyage talk:How to handle unwanted edits and ask for others to please keep an eye on his(?) edits. More than that is not warranted at this point, and I could also suggest that if it gets too annoying to you to deal with him(?), you could avoid communicating with him for a while and let others deal with him. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:43, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

As a close wiki-companion, thought you should know[edit]

Moving.jpg Notice of account creation and page movement
I, have decided to create an account, User: Zanygenius please direct all posts to my new talk page.

(Remember what I said about the password rememberance thing? Well, thank God for a notepad!) -Signed, the amazing Zanygenius. Visit my chat page 04:56, 10 June 2017 (UTC)


There is astronomy, so why not science?. Just think who is more probably to travel there, a hitchhiker or a scientist? hence why not do science, its disputable though.-- 23:30, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

I take it more serious that originally was, if you still think im joking you should take la look here wikipedia:Outer Space Treaty, legal murder is a mayor concern and it is a fact on the moon, so why not to include it?
better answer me her --Neurorebel (talk) 23:41, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
There are no people on the moon, so laws about what people can do on the moon don't seem relevant, but if you want to refer to them, please make it brief. This is not Wikipedia - please read Wikivoyage:About and welcome, Wikipedians (particularly the "Goals" section; you can also refer to goals and non-goals). And your "listing" for science is no such thing. "Do some science research before going" or some such is not a listing; it's just prose. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:14, 19 June 2017 (UTC)


I thought all of that you mention but happens that im not the best capacitate for doing the task that you request away from may be the route to montevideo to San jose, surely more frequent travelers would not have problems at that task, also i thought how to add one if those maps and adjust the banner but neither i don't know how to do that (the seccond one without dl/upl).--Neurorebel (talk) 03:58, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

You could always ask for someone else to make a map, for example by posting the specifics of what you want in the map in the Travellers' pub, or you could look at Wikivoyage:How to draw static maps and Wikivoyage:How to use dynamic maps. Do what you can, but keep in mind that an itinerary that isn't practical or that has only historical information in it is not a useful article for travelers. That's one of the differences between this site and Wikipedia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:04, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
Help. Help Help! I have done almost the impossible, the fact is that if you wanna get lost somewhere in Uruguay without knowing your location follow ANY instruction to this route and mine with the tools that i have now is not that bad, the problem is that is a "try to scape" travel from its conception and hence with its in and outs, of course is doable but my knowledge on geography and history of Uruguay is limited so there may be many inacurancies, if i only have some help I could do a better work.--Neurorebel (talk) 06:21, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
Unfortunately, I wouldn't know how to help. I have no knowledge of this itinerary. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:42, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
For sure, even less than half of the population of uruguay neither know,personally all I know are some places that once I visited but from there to tell bus frequencies is some distance, however the article can trick more than one.--Neurorebel (talk) 07:06, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
Just do what you can. There are some other Wikivoyage users who are familiar with Uruguay, so someone else may be able to add to what you start. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:11, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
Hope so, but you know well the east so you should know Uruguay... ¿Is it here any portal for Uruguay? also this Itinerary was reenacted as of 2011, someone should have the Itinerary of that travel though it also was done by waine.--Neurorebel (talk) 07:27, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
I don't know. If you find out, please post the URL to Talk:Uruguay. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:42, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
ok --Neurorebel (talk) 08:26, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Linking to categories[edit]

Hi Ikan Kekek, your recent post at User talk:Neurorebel makes me wonder if you may not know how to link to categories. Adding a colon to the beginning of the link makes it work, as in this link – Category:Guide itineraries. If you already know this, then never mind. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:31, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

I know that works on Commons, so it should work here, but I didn't think about it. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:46, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

My user talk page[edit]

Hello Ikan! Quick question: in your opinion, am I within my rights to institute this policy on my user talk page? If not, I will revert. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:52, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Why not? If you have the right to delete posts on your user talk page, you can surely delete sig boxes. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:45, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
It was my understanding that Wikietiquette frowned on editing other people's talk page comments, even for picayune issues like spelling and grammar and even on one's own user talk page. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:28, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
I think you're well within your rights. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:35, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Plagerism Problem with my page[edit]

It would be against my better judgement to back out of my Wikibreak, however I was strolling, and found a disturbing edit that holds little similarities to even my weirdness. It's to early to block them, but I would like to hear your thoughts on the whole thing.

Update: It's even worse because now User: AndreCarrotflower went and semi-protected the sandbox page, so I can't even undo anything.

I really appreciate that you went easy on me yesterday, and that you thanked me for doing so, and so I thought I could come to you for help. -Signed, the amazing Zanygenius. Visit my chat page 13:53, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

I didn't go easy on you; I just behaved normally. I have no idea what you're objecting to, though. Look at the edit you've linked, please. Nothing to object to, right? I have no idea what you mean by "plagerism", either. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:57, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
Sorry, wrong link. Try this one: -Signed, the amazing Zanygenius. Visit my chat page 14:05, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Nothing to see there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:25, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
I guess it is a minor edit. How about I let this one slide, and the nest time it hapoens, I'll let you know. Have a great day! -Signed, the amazing Zanygenius. Visit my chat page 14:30, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
You too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:38, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps I can shed some light on this issue. Zanygenius, editing anonymously as the IP address User:, created the page User Sandbox: and began editing it as a user sandbox. As there is a space after the colon in the page name (and as there is no such namespace as "User Sandbox"), that meant the page he created actually ended up in mainspace. I therefore deleted the page with the edit summary "These need to be created in userspace". Zanygenius then recreated the page over my deletion and resumed editing it as before. At that time, keeping in mind my own contentious history with this user, I figured that a less confrontational way to solve the problem would be to redirect the page to User:Zanygenius/Sandbox, which I did, with an edit summary that, in a friendly tone, explained exactly what I was doing and why: "Again, pages like this need to stay in userspace. For your convenience, I've moved this one to your userspace yourself." I furthermore figured that Zanygenius' userspace was the most logical place for it, since "User:" is not even a valid IP address. And yes, I also protected the original User Sandbox: page to prevent it from being recreated again.
I'm all for plunging forward. However, much like the routebox issue we discussed before, this is yet another case of this user charging ahead like a bull in a china shop when he clearly doesn't know what he's doing, making a mess, and then getting defensive and raising a huge stink when other editors dare to clean up said mess. It's a behavior pattern that can't continue if he's to stay a productive editor on this wiki - which would be a shame because when he sticks to adding content, as to Cheyenne or Kimball (Nebraska), it's usually quite good. I'm also sensitive to the issue of editors on Recent Changes patrol (which is how I discovered the issue in the first place) making newbies feel as if they're being followed around or persecuted, but I don't think that avoiding hurting a sensitive user's feelings suffices as justification for looking the other way on an issue of the magnitude of a sandbox page existing in mainspace. Wikis are collaborative projects, and anyone's contributions are subject to alteration at any time, and users simply have to get comfortable with that fact.
-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:34, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
Of course I second all you've said 100%. I followed those events in real time. It's just that the links Zanygenius provided me with above didn't show that, so I felt no need to comment on something he hadn't linked. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:47, 28 June 2017 (UTC)


the choice of karabett was's not the same thing as cabaret Griffindd (talk) 14:37, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Sorry about that. Since it's a German word, maybe it's best to begin it with a capital letter and put it in italics. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:38, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

WikiVoyage is unhelpfull page[edit]

Don't you think that wikivoyage comes to totally unhelpfull page ? What is sense to describe only large airports, only large points of interest. Every large place have great description on many sites in many languages, but this smaller have no informations or not enough informations for travelers, so it will be helpfull to put some more about, some more than we can find in specific language or official site etc. --Stimoroll (talk) 18:04, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Sure, but the information on smaller airports can simply be included in the page for the city mainly served by the airport, just as the information about that city's train and bus stations would be included in the "Get in" section. It's not a question of whether to include useful information or not, only whether a separate article is required. That said, if you'd like to argue for different criteria for airport articles, I'd encourage you to make your suggestions at Wikivoyage talk:Airport Expedition. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:18, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Series of revisions to Oakland[edit]

An Anon decided to lob a LOT of very dodgy and biased garbage content onto Oakland - I need an assist here... L. Challenger (talk) 05:49, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm actually in Oakland right now, but unfortunately, I have no time to check this and probably won't for at least a couple of days, as I'll be on the road. Please feel free to revert at will and post to Talk:Oakland. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:56, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Gallery template[edit]

Do we have some Gallery template to place photos horizontally like in Wikipedia? Soshial (talk) 16:30, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Please have a look at the wikicode in Electrical_systems#Plugs_and_adapters, for instance. However, per Wikivoyage:Image_policy#Montages_and_galleries we try to avoid galleries here on WV. ϒpsilon (talk) 16:37, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
Thx for the answer and the warning! Soshial (talk) 17:11, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Another question. I came up with the idea that it could be very helpful to include a youtube link with event description to give better understand of the type and atmosphere of these events. What do you think about this practice? Soshial (talk) 17:15, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

I remember Youtube links having being deleted from articles. A few years back we discussed adding videos to articles (or something along those lines) and the community didn't like the idea. Personally I think video content might be useful in some cases (for instance for events, as you said) but you should perhaps better bring up this in the pub or at Wikivoyage_talk:Image_policy. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:31, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for handling this, ϒpsilon. Soshial, YouTube links wouldn't be in compliance with the guidelines at Wikivoyage:External links#What not to link to. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:46, 10 July 2017 (UTC)


What is missing, before nominating Oslo Airport, Gardermoen for a starred article? I am constantly trying to develop and improve this article. Any tips on improving it further are welcome. Carsten R D Talk 01:10, 27. july 2017 (UTC)

I promise to look through the article with a fine-toothed comb when I'm more alert (currently jetlagged after 3 weeks on the West Coast of the U.S.) and have more time, but I notice that it's currently at Usable status, so as a first step, check to make sure it's already a Guide and change its status accordingly before you nominate it for a star. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:21, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
I had a look and made some copy edits in the opening sections of the article. I think the O'Hare International Airport article is the closest we have to a Star airport article (I think it should be a star), so please have a look at it. Right now, I think the Gardermoen article is good, but I'm not convinced it's a Guide yet. One problem is the "Eat and Drink" section. Any time readers are pointed to an external link for a "complete overview", that's a red flag. Also, is there any way to be more specific about the locations of eateries than "Domestic Terminal" and "International Terminal"? How would a reader find them? Geo would be helpful. Conversely, I would remove geo from the first instance of "Oslo Airport, Gardermoen" and use only an external link there, as the entire article is about the airport, so it doesn't make sense for it to be only a point on the map. Other issues for Star but not Guide status have to do with niceties of idiomatic English writing, but I think it's much more important to make this article a Guide than a Star. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:57, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Dude how do you have so many edits[edit]

Whenever I'm looking through the version history of a page your name always seems to turn up. Fixing spelling, removing advertising, listing things. The first few times I didn't notice, but now it's kind of creepy

I was just digging around in an Essaouira listing to see if it was a tout, It was originally but low and behold you had already been there and cleaned up the listing

Who are you, is your consciousness somehow merged with wikimedia? Do you think in binary form? How have you been to so many places?

He's just a very diligent recent change patroller. And unlike me, he doesn't get bogged down trying to research some minor point of the "understand" section or the likes when he does recent changes patrol... Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:02, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, I do this recreationally, and that's how I was originally nominated to be an admin. I've been to a few places, but I don't have to have been somewhere to recognize the kinds of problems you mention. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:23, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Ill be in new york about two weeks for a day - please email me if you can - I know you have closed your email here on voyage - staying in ny such a short time

JarrahTree (talk) 06:37, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Also I cannot believe how I have fallen by the wayside here - must revitalise the voyage frame of mind - lots to do still !! JarrahTree (talk) 06:38, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Check your email. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:43, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
Thanks Yes Done JarrahTree (talk) 06:52, 29 July 2017 (UTC)


I added a vegetarian listing and you reverted it for touting. How is a new listing considered touting? It merely had the cafe details and a mention that the food was good - the same as the other listings. What was the problem? Can you re-post.

Sorry, I reverted the edit, because I totally don't understand why it was removed. It was in no way a tout, just the listing of a recently opened restaurant. —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)

Did you read the don't tout page? Your simplified version is a lot better, so thanks for that and I'm OK with it, but your original language of "After eating here, you'll never crave eat again." (I think you meant "never crave meat again") is definitely promotional-sounding, not merely descriptive. Make sense? (Also, you'll notice I "signed" for you. On talk pages [only], please sign each post by typing 4 tildes [~] in a row at the end of your message.) Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:05, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
Thank you 10:13, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for putting up the listing and working to improve it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:30, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Emmette's disambiguation pages[edit]

I created two disambiguation pages: Dulles and Seven Corners. But I've never created disambig on WikiVoyage before, any rough edges here you think should be smoothed out? Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 01:31, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. I question the need for the Seven Corners disambig, because it disambiguates neighborhoods in two undistricted cities. I similarly question the need for a Dulles disambig. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:32, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
For what it's worth: Wikipedia has articles for Seven Corners and Dulles, and treats them more as cities then neighborhoods. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 03:34, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
With apologies for butting in: Emmette, I don't think these disambigs absolutely need to exist, but I also don't think they're doing any harm. I see them as analogous to, say, Central Park (disambiguation), a page I created that points to the large park in Manhattan as well as a neighborhood that is part of North Buffalo. As to your original question: no, I'm not noticing anything amiss with the disambig pages you created. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:14, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
I don't really agree, in that I think that any link to Dulles Airport, including one in that disambig, should link directly to Washington, D.C.#Washington Dulles International Airport. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:26, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
It does link directly to Washington, D.C.#Washington Dulles International Airport. Well, it links to Washington Dulles International Airport, but that's a redirect to Washington, D.C.#Washington Dulles International Airport. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 04:29, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
I see why I missed that before. Thanks for clarifying the link. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:38, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
You're welcome. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 05:20, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
Anyway: Wikipedia has it's reasons for treating Seven Corners as a city. It's a census-designated place, and outside the city limits of Falls Church. So to Wikipedia, it's a city, even if it's really a neighborhood of Falls Church for most piratical purposes. Wikipedia cares much more about stuff like city limits and CDPs then we do.
I think if Wikipedia treats something as a city, but we treat it as part of another city, then we should have a redirect (or disambig) pointing to the article we cover it on. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 09:21, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
I understand. I was reacting to it being described as a neighborhood, but I agree with your reasoning above. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:56, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Roman Catholic Cemetery, Agra[edit]

Dear Ikan Kekek, I have written the cemetery predates the Taj, not the baby Taj. --Rangan Datta Wiki (talk) 15:23, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I'm seeing that today, after a night's sleep. My confusion was in that you are referring specifically to the 19th-century tomb of William Hessing here:
The red sandstone structure was constructed by his wife and is designed along the lines of the Taj Mahal, but not an exact copy.
I think what could help make the listing less susceptible to confusion would be to put the year of the cemetery's founding, or failing that, the years of Akbar Khan's reign, in the first sentence of the listing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:46, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
Dear Ikan Kekek, made necessary changes, do have a look. Any suggestions do get back to me. --Rangan Datta Wiki (talk) 02:55, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
Not bad and certainly clear. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:01, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Promotional photos?[edit]

This was (I think) my first post here on wiki voyage (and probably my last now), but calling a picture of a wilderness cabin a promotional photo is a joke. I guess as a Manhattanite you don't know too much of wilderness camping, but I'd be super glad if I had information on how those cabins look like and what I can expect when out there. When I was there I made this picture specifically with wiki voyage in mind to let fellow campers know what to expect. I thought Wikipedia itself is strange sometimes, but this is...well ok. No harm meant, but sometimes people's judgement is beyond me. --HylgeriaK (talk) 09:08, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Did you see I reverted my edit? Anyway, had I not, these things can always be discussed on the talk page for the relevant article. Also, though, don't assume too much about where and how I've traveled, based on where I live.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:18, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Why I dislike hyphenating "antisemitic" and "antisemitism"[edit]

The hyphenated version may be the more common form in English, but besides my general preference for combined nouns to be one word, there is a subtle difference in emphasis implied by either writing. "Antisemitism" implies that was is talked about is an ideology, set of beliefs, maybe even something pathological. "Anti-Semitism" implies that it is a rejection of an ideology, an aversion to a set of beliefs or a counter of something. In short, the hyphenated version can mean to subtly imply that there legitimately is such a thing as "Semitism" and "anti-Semitism" is simply comprised of people opposed to "Semitism" (whatever that is or may be). But that is of course not what antisemitism is. Antisemitism is a "scientific sounding" word for "Jew hatred" that German people who hated Jews made up in the 19th century in line with their more racist (and less religious) "explanations" for it. It is never rational, it is never directed against any real thing Jews say or do and the victims of antisemitism can only ever escape antisemitism by being stronger or more elusive than its perpetrators or by having someone who defends them. Hence a communist could escape anti-communism by convincing the anti-communists that (s)he is no longer communist. A victim of antisemitism cannot likewise convince antisemites that they have it all wrong and misjudged his "semitism". I may overreact on this point, but to me it seems writing it with a hyphen ever so slightly implies that there is even the slightest bit of a point to the stuff antisemites say. And there isn't. "Semitism" doesn't exist. Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:04, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

I understand your point of view, but I think we should go with common English usage. We both know that "anti-Semitism" is just a replacement for "Jew-hatred" (Judenhass). Some people have also applied it to anti-Arab bigotry, not the original meaning, but words' meanings and spellings change. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:08, 19 August 2017 (UTC)


Would you mind connecting your Wikivoyage account to your email (to enable the "Email this user" function)? I'd like to send you a private message. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 10:04, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I prefer for people not to contact me by email from here to talk about what goes on on this site. What is it you wanted to talk about? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:12, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
Well, I'll say it here. Honestly, I think you might be working too hard. I see your name pooping up all over the wiki. And twice now, when we've been in a debate, I think you were taking it too seriously. Or at least, a lot more seriously then I was taking it. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 10:17, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
That's a fair comment. I'm probably not taking things as seriously as it seems to you, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:18, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
But I will keep this in mind. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:26, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

RevDel request[edit]

Actually, the reason to leave an email address here, or somewhere, is that there does not appear to be a confidential place on this wiki for a request for Revision Deletion.

[text deleted by request] But ideally, there is a place to email requests of this type. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:46, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

I can understand why you think it's a bad idea for such information to be made public, but I know of no Wikimedia guideline that a user cannot mention his own age. From what I recall, Wikimedia users need to be at least 13 (or maybe it was 12) years old. Moreover, normally, no-one edits anyone's user page unless it is spam or vandalism, in which case it is deleted. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:02, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
Sometimes, you just have to do what's right. If the age were one where a person could plausibly be considered an adult, say 16, I'd probably leave it alone, or at least go no farther than to encourage the user to take the information away. But here you have an age that's clearly younger than that, and in fact you have a name, age and hometown all together. That is not something I'd like to allow on my wiki, if I were a sysop.
Additionally, I once again note that there is nowhere I can address this matter confidentially on Wikivoyage. At this point, you should probably RevDel everything I've added to this page, too. I appreciate that in general we want everything in running a wiki like this to be open to the public. But around the Wikimedia world, there are certain things well-recognized as requiring a more confidential approach, and this is one of them. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:43, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
I don't feel I can make policy decisions unilaterally, where there is no guidance. Can you point to a relevant Wikimedia policy, since Wikivoyage has none? I would also suggest for you to discuss this matter, without referring to anyone specific, but merely as a matter of policy, in the Travellers' pub, because it's likely to come up again. I am willing to revdel your remarks on this page, since you requested that, after you reply to this post. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:37, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
Policies do exist on a number of Wikipedias. Please see the following, for example:
On those projects, at least, there is wide latitude available to administrators, oversighters and others to remove "privacy-breaching non-public material", especially that of minors. To be sure, in no case is the removal of such information required. At the same time, at least on English Wikipedia and Simple English Wikipedia, removal of such information is strongly encouraged.
It is these policies that guide how I have handled these situations in the past. De facto, I use them at Ladino Wikipedia and Wikimedia Incubator, where I am a sysop.
Given all of the above, here is how I personally see things:
  • I will certainly open a discussion on Travellers' pub.
  • I will appreciate your revdeleting this section when we're done.
  • On the page at hand, I think there is sufficient strength from the Wikipedia policy for my edit to stand.
    I also think there is sufficient justification to support you to revdelete what I have asked you to revdelete on the page if you wish. I cannot say there is anything, even in those policies, to require that, although I will tell you that on English Wikipedia that information would have been removed and revdeleted.
Thank you for hearing me out. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:33, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
You bet, and thank you for having this dialogue with me. Let's see what other folks have to say about this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:54, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
I have made all the changes in revision visibility on this page that you requested, but without a Wikivoyage consensus on what to do about changes on a user page, I will as yet take no action on that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:00, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Your post in the pub[edit]

I saw you made this post in the pub. Honestly, I think that was uncalled for. I can how the phrase "savages in the jungle" could be perceived as insulting to ingenuous people. But I think it's clear that the editor was using the phrase tongue-in-cheek, I doubt he meant any insult to the indigenous people of the Amazon. I doubt he was even thinking about the indigenous people of the Amazon!

I think throwing the R-word around like that just cheapens that word, and doesn't help your case. If you need to say something: I think it'd be better just to explain that there are actual ingenuous people in the jungle, and that you think phrase "savages in the jungle" is best avoided. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 09:03, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

You have your view, I have mine. People who live in the jungle have just as sophisticated a social organization as anyone else. If it was a joke, that's not acceptable to me, either, because it perpetuates bigotry. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:27, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
Well, that editor took it a lot better then I feared he would. If I had make a little joke, and an editor had reacted the way you did, I don't think I'd have taken it that graciously. I'd probably have persevered that extremity uncivil, and maybe even thought the person who said it was a nut. It definitely wouldn't be the best way of encouraging me to think and change my behavior.
But if I made a little joke, and another editor just nicely explained why he thought it was in poor taste, that would be a different matter. I'd think about what he said, and maybe take it to heart.
And I'm not saying you can't use the R-word at all: If you made a post explaining that there are actual ingenuous people in the jungle, and part of that post had been "Honestly, that came off as racist to me", well, that's very different then just throwing the R-word at someone. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 17:29, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
I was shocked by the remark, but why are you pursuing a dead issue? The exchange in question is resolved. But since you insist on pursuing this: There are no "savages"; that's an inherently racist word that I don't expect to see in the 21st century on a non-white-supremacist site. My mother was an anthropologist and I have anthropologist friends who worked with aboriginal peoples who live in jungles. Many non-aboriginal people are casually bigoted and accept these kinds of remarks because they're not as sensitive or closely connected to aboriginal people as I am (1 degree of separation). I realize you're well-intentioned in suggesting that I could be a little less blunt in the face of racist remarks that might be intended as jokes and not meant to be expressions of bigotry, but I simply don't expect or accept this kind of language, which shocked me the same way a rape "joke" might. So you expressed your point of view and maybe you understand mine, but particularly if you don't, I really doubt drawing out this discussion further will be helpful to our working relationship. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:02, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
I meant no offence, and I think I understand your point of view. I suppose I was "pursuing" it, because I was worried that this might happen again, and the next editor might not see your point of view. That he might dismiss what you say and get angry at you, instead of thinking about how what he said could be insensitive. But we don't have to talk about this anymore if you don't want to. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 18:27, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
I hope this doesn't happen again, but I appreciate your attitude. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:11, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
You're welcome :) And speaking of hate and conflict and the like, I've found a video that explains some of the psychology behind it:
Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 13:59, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Re: link[edit]

Hi Ikan, thanks for the heads up, unfortunately no I cannot summarize, because I wouldn't want to have only some taxi companies being recommended, but basically it explained thouroughly the chaos at the Otopeni Airport, in terms of taxi transportation. --Vlad (talk) 09:39, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

If only some of the taxi companies are worthwhile, it may be fair to recommend only those. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:22, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Merge and other discussions[edit]

Ikan, to respond more directly to your comment, in proposing to remove tags I am trying to prod editors who have proposed mergers to follow through and do them. There are certain editors who are keen to add merge tags and start discussions, but leave the work to someone else. In one case, I opposed a merger, but withdrew my objection because two other editors supported it. When I suggested to the proposer he go ahead and do the merger, he told me to do it! A while ago I went through and cleaned up the proposed merger pile by completing a bunch a mergers, but now I see that the pile is growing again as some people find that they can effectively direct the work of others by placing tags. So yes, I am being a little cranky about it, but I think it is a bad tendency of some editors that we should address. Ground Zero (talk) 12:06, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

I get that, but I think that's different from a deletion tag. If an article is proposed for deletion because of a plagiarism problem, though in that case, the offending section may not have been large enough to be fatal, it's still more serious than just someone slapping a "merge" tag on it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:23, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
Fair enough, but if no-one involved in the discussion is willing to do something about it, then it doesn't matter whether the tag is there or not. It is just clutter than makes Wikivoyage look uncared-for and out-of-date. Ground Zero (talk) 12:52, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
I definitely understand your take on this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:22, 13 September 2017 (UTC)


Thanks again for your correcetion of the page Rotterdam: I guess the text will be clearer if the sentence about the port does not start with Beside. With "beside" I meant: added to everything which was named in the preceding sentence. But I can understand that that was not so clear and also the text will be more neutral (less over the top) this way.VanuitVoorburg (talk) 15:00, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Yeah. The clear way to express that would be "Aside from downtown, Rotterdam also includes..." Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:01, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Bung in[edit]

I guess I was unconsciously emulating Jamie Oliver, an English celebrity chef you may have heard of. I was consciously trying to keep the informal style WV is known for while making my incredibly pedantic point about the different ways of cooking moules, though not so informal that travellers should be encouraged to put them anywhere but the cooking pot :-)

As for what dialect it represents, that would be my own, from South East England. A consult of the Urban Dictionary would prove illuminating for both of us. A candidate for the English language varieties behemoth, perhaps? Not seriously, --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:05, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

I've definitely heard of Jamie Oliver. Thanks for the explanation. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:22, 21 September 2017 (UTC)


Would you mind stepping in here and trying to help get to the bottom of this? As near as I can figure out, the user seems to think the three-day escalating user block I just applied is unwarranted, though (as usual with this particular user) I can't really make heads or tails of what his comment is supposed to mean. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:10, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

OK, I'm giving it a try. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:32, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Ko Tao Warning on page[edit]

Hi there, Ikan,

I'm just querying the warning you have at the top of your page about Koh Tao. While there has been a large amount of media coverage about certain events on Koh Tao over the past few years, a lot of the information published has just been rumour and speculation. There is no solid evidence to back up accusations of foul play. The island is no more dangerous than any other area of Thailand. Please take some time to look at the reviews of the large number tourists who visit Koh Tao and have an amazing experience there. I believe that tourists should exercise caution wherever they are travelling, including Koh Tao. However if you feel the need to post a warning for Koh Tao maybe you should look at accidents and deaths in other areas of Thailand and the world and also apply warnings to every other place. If you could take the time to look at this issue and reconsider you would help to counteract the overwhelming amount of scaremongering and misinformation that Koh Tao is unfortunate enough to be the subject of.

Thanks for your time.

Liam 11:00, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Hi, Liam. I have no opinion about the warning, except that any substantive deletion should be accompanied by a brief explanation in an edit summary. If you're not familiar with edit summaries, please have a look at Wikivoyage:How to edit a page#Previewing and saving a page, starting with the text "Beneath the article editing text box is a short field labelled Summary." Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:05, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

On Andratx![edit]

I am glad you contributed to Andratx, because I need your advice, on a strange Unexplained revrt that occurred after I made some improvements to Andratx after seeing it in the Special:New Pages page. (I organized into a small city skeleton, and made sense of the paragraphs. I also cleared the crystal in the "Get in" section, Because I could hardly understand! Then I had errands and research to do, and so I stopped.

MY REQUEST: I am confused over the revert, so could you provide insight on the discussion?

All the best luck, -Signed, the amazing Zanygenius. Visit my chat page 01:02, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

I will wait for Hobbitschuster to address this. I think it was unintentional. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:41, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Good plan, I'll see you over there! So you think it was unintentional, right? -Signed, the amazing Zanygenius. Visit my chat page 16:53, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Right. I'll wait till the end of the day or tomorrow. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:05, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
I should not have hit rollback. That said, there were some glitches in it, like two status templates and two pagebanner templates. Please have a more thorough look the next time. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:48, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
This user has made valuable contributions to various articles in the past, but - forgive me for being blunt - wordsmithing is not his strong suit. In addition to the comments above, Zanygenius would be well advised to stick to adding information that's not already present in a given article, as with the bit about arriving in Andratx by boat, rather than replacing text that is well-written (if spartan) with what amounts to a far more poorly worded version of the same thing, as he did in the intro lede. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:08, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Hobbitschuster, thanks for dealing with this. You're right, guys; I didn't notice the problems and could have paid more attention. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:39, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
No problem. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:58, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Hey guys,
Ikan Kekek: You shalt take the blame for this yet. Frankly, one of our many friends, User: Hobbitschuster made the crystal that should have become clear very rusty, and dirty, and loosing comprehensive wealth with the comment. It is a very true command indeed, but I think he could have spotted it to either me or you, User: Ikan Kekek.
Everyone: Gracias to all those who took time out of their busy schedules to input their opinion here. Again, Gracias, it's been helpful.
AndreCarrotflower: When you look up the definition of wordsmith, this happens... :'( . Andre, I'll admit I don't have a rigorous background full of complexity, but not a wordsmith? I know lots of words and my writing is legible. A more accurate term is that I lack any paragraphsmith ability, because I am messy and can't conjoin paragraphs. (trust me, my experience tells me I am a horrible paragraph-smith.) But otherwise, I feel your case is very accurate, and helpfully explained what (I did) in the Andratx article. So Thanks.
Hobbitschuster:Who haven't I answered yet? Oh, yes the Hobbitschuster himself! I was going to correct the page banner thing in a moment, and fill in the various sections afterward. But I apologize for the rest, because I know a sloppy article is edible (get the food reference?) while not looking good on screen. I will strive my best for the perfectionistic beauty of the articles, and that they can be understood.


Conclusion: I am really impressed and filled with gratitude all at the same time for you all making your voice heard. :) I personally think I could organize passages and paragraphs with smoother flow, and not try for the mark very time. I will aso be less sloppy from now on.

I KNOW THAT I'M AN IDIOT I tell myself that everyday, but that doesn't apply to all areas of me, such as wording, and the sort.

What I want you to pull away from this: Despite my wording, I'm not making this federal. I understand this scenario has both sides right and wrong (though I'm mostly the guilty party here).

Have a wonderful day, -Signed, the amazing Zanygenius. Visit my chat page 20:51, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
You're not an "idiot", Zanygenius, any more than any of us were idiots when we first started editing here. But what you do need to do a better job of is modulating the types of contributions you make to your level of experience as an editor. As I said above, for now you should stick to the things you know you do well, such as adding new listings and information to articles themselves - which, by the way, is the single most important job on Wikivoyage - rather than worrying about more complicated things like routeboxes, districtification proposals, disambiguation articles, or other stuff that requires more familiarity with policy than you have. That kind of stuff will come with time and as you gain experience, but for now, slow down. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 14:31, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Slowing down and going witht the flow. Smooth, and I agree, and I will! But I will still do my best to make (helpful) WikiVoyage edits and page creations. Also, if anyone creates a low byte page (less than [500], should I let them know it's better to create it in the user space, and that they should move it there until they're ready, like do? -Signed, the amazing Zanygenius. Visit my chat page 22:08, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

What in Wikivoyage is "EditCounterOptIn.js" and can I use it to help me edit?[edit]

JavaScript? -Signed, the amazing Zanygenius. Visit my chat page 21:29, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

I have no idea what that is. Maybe it's best to just edit normally. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:32, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Okay, thanks for coming back to me with advice! I think I'll use what I have, and when I become more experienced, I may look into it down the road. But definitely not today.
Best regards from -Signed, the amazing Zanygenius. Visit my chat page 21:49, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Docent for sabah, East Malaysia.[edit]

I humbly apologise for this post, but I am new to reading / understanding wiki pages . I have looked long and hard but cannot make any sense of your tech speak within the pages to help me be Docent to Sabah. Sorry. Maaf kan saya anda Ikan Kekek. I am willing to be Docent for Sabah, but, I cannot make it happen. What I am reading via Wiki instructions does not help me interact/ create a docent. I am really stuck as to how to talk too you (et al.) pembelajaran Bahasa wikivoyage saya. I think I have posted my e-mail to my talk page?

Thank you for any help/advice too make a Docent possible. 
Sorry for posting on the incorrect pages.
Terima kasih untuk tulisan dan soalan Anda. Have you read Wikivoyage:Docents? It looks to me like the most relevant sections are "Becoming a docent" and "Rights and Responsibilities". There's also the more basic question, addressed in Wikivoyage:What is a docent?:
Docents are volunteers—fellow users of this site—who know a lot about a particular destination. They've volunteered their time and knowledge to help travellers like you who have questions.
If you read only that page and the rest of it confused you, I think the other page is a lot simpler. If you have any questions after you've had a look at Wikivoyage:Docents, please feel free to write again. Saya faham Bahasa Melayu, tapi Bahasa Inggeris bahasa saya yang pertama. Anda boleh menulis saya dalam bahasa yang Anda suka mengguna. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:30, 12 October 2017 (UTC)


hei if you think i was just editing Wikivoyage, then you are wrong. I'm pashto Wikivoyage test administrator, also the only administrator in Pashto wikipedia, and I'm from Kandahar i was born there i was everywhere in Afghanistan means that i know about Afghanistan and Kandahar, Kandahar is one of the most safe city in Afghanistan, if you want any more information, links or have a question so please tell me. thanks:))) Bloch khan (talk) 20:09, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

By saying it's safe because it's under the control of the Taliban, I'm sorry, but you're trolling. For most visitors, that quite obviously makes it very unsafe. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:17, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Hold it: I apologize, Bloch khan; I misread your edit. You don't say the Taliban have control; you say the family of Mullah Omar live there. I think you can re-add your points, but I don't think you can remove the warningbox without a discussion at Talk:Kandahar that convinces a consensus. And I would suggest that even if Kandahar is the safest city in Afghanistan, it's still Afghanistan and even if the last major terrorist attack there was in 2011, I think prospective foreign visitors should still be careful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:47, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
I am not going to make a crass point about this, but the German government is currently deporting asylum seekers to Afghanistan calling it "safe" or claiming there are "safe" parts of it. I think it is obvious that they themselves do not believe this by the protocol that is observed for ministerial visits in Afghanistan. Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:31, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Sorry for late answer Please search:YZTvpq2UpZ0 on YouTube, and look the same video on YouTube, thank you very much. Bloch khan (talk)

Thank you. Maybe it would be good to put in the link in the article's talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:02, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Can we now change dangerous box from Kandahar?

No, you need to convince a consensus before taking such an action again. Since you're a Wikipedia admin, I would think you'd be familiar with the process of discussing things on talk pages for articles and seeing if a consensus can be developed. Explain on Talk:Kandahar why the warningbox is no longer needed, in your opinion, and propose removing it. You also might want to make a pointer to the discussion at Wikivoyage:Requests for comment. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:43, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Stay safe[edit]

Is it true that the same emergency numbers are used throughout Pakistan? Ans Rescue 1122 (Urdu: 1122 پنجاب ایمرجنسی‎) is an emergency service that serves Punjab Province in Pakistan. But Police help line 15 is used throughout Pakistan.

  • In this case, it's enough to list these numbers on the country page only. Per obvious, they don't need to appear on every Pakistani city's article. Ibaman (talk) 11:20, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
Exactly. I hope you don't mind that I moved this new thread to the bottom of the page, which is where new threads are started on Wikis by custom. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:01, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
So it seems that the police help line should be covered at the country level, whereas the 1122 number is something for the Punjab (Pakistan) article. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:30, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for finding that out. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:15, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

"Cities" sections[edit]

thank you for your advice on iran i omit one city that is less important than other and one important city Sadegh sadegh (talk) 09:02, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

You removed Qom. That might be OK, but not unilaterally. My advice, as you can see in this edit summary, was "If you want to argue for a substitution, do so on the talk page." So you need to make an argument at Talk:Iran and see if you can get a consensus behind your proposal. For now, it's likely that someone will revert your substitution because it was done unilaterally. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:23, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

I'd like your thoughts on my draft for a merged article.[edit]

I'm planing on proposing a merge for the Lewiston (Maine) and Auburn (Maine) articles. The articles heavily overlap, and from aerial images: I think it's clear that geographically speaking, they're the same city.

But before I propose the merge: I'd like your thoughts on my draft of the merged article. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 23:54, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Hi, Emmette. The draft looks OK, but I'm not sure the merger is a good idea. These are two cities separated by a river. I don't know enough to know whether or how much they have separate identities. I'd suggest for you to post to both article's talk pages, seeking wider comment. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:04, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
That's what I was planing on doing. But it seems to me that identity isn't really what's impotent. That what's impotent is: From the traveler's preventive, do they function as one city or two cities? Is it more piratical for the traveler to have one guide covering both, or two separate guides? Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 00:14, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
You make a good point. Make that point in your post. And I don't know the answer. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:15, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Metro New York breadcrumbing[edit]

I saw that you were having some troubles with breadcrumbs at Talk:Metro New York#Breadcrumbs and article text contradicting each other, I might have a solution. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 11:11, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestion. I made a remark on the talk page for the article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:38, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Question regarding Epicentrum's XXI Theatres[edit]

Hello Ikan, I see you have a question about the meaning of this sentence, "Much smaller mall because there are just a few options for dining and shopping. Home of the two biggest screening theatres in Jakarta (from 21Cineplex chain)".

Epicentrum Walk has only 2 screening theatres but with bigger capacity than normal XXI theatres throughout Jakarta so it's kind of appropriate (I think) to put "the two biggest" instead of "two of the biggest" since neither of them is IMAX theatre and both are the biggest in the city (at the time I'm writing this).

If you have any questions or edits you might think are more appropriate, don't hesitate to ask me or just edit it the way it should be. I'm happy to help. ibhi19 (talk) 07:45, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

I think my question would have been whether they were the 2 biggest in Jakarta or the 2 biggest in Jakarta from 21Cineplex chain. The parentheses help make the meaning seem to be as you intended, though, so I think it's OK. Dan terima kasih banyak untuk kerja Anda yang bagus! Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:51, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
Thank you! I'll keep learning and trying to contribute as much as I can! ibhi19 (talk) 09:43, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
Excellent. Between you and Tawonmadu, a lot of good new edits are being made in articles about Indonesia. That's of really great use to travelers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:32, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

My Addition at Nha Trang[edit]

Hello Ikan

Regards to Citadines Bayfront Nha Trang edit

Thanks for the edit. My apologies for the confusion due to my bad English. You're correct, there is one of each facility mentioned at the end of the description. JoshEff (talk) 06:20, 15 November 2017 (UTC)JoshEff

No need for an apology. I'm glad you read my edit summary and found it useful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:28, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Mistakes on capitalising the nouns of "bemo" and "bajaj"[edit]

Hello Ikan!

Thank you for correcting the sentence on Jakarta's new Bajaj Qute. The reason of capitalisation on the word 'Bajaj' in 'Bajaj Qute' is because the Qute itself uses an engine from the manufacturer 'Bajaj', but I think it's okay to not capitalise the word 'bajaj' and 'bemo' as well.

Also I apologise for sometimes having a tendency of capitalising the nouns due to learning German. I hope the new information on the Jakarta helps you.ibhi19 (talk) 07:36, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

I quite understand. The only thing I find easy about German grammar is that all nouns are capitalized. I wish we did that in English. That said, if Bajaj is a capital name like Jeep, please do capitalize it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:38, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Alright, will do. I agree with you on the noun capitalisation in German and English should've implemented that as well because it's also a Germanic language. Thank you! ibhi19 (talk) 08:41, 15 November 2017 (UTC)


I am the one who was talking about kandahar, and I have many video links, if you have any social media media accounts so please tell me I will send you everything there like:Facebook, Viber or something else... :))) Bloch khan (talk) 01:33, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Hi there. Would you consider posting links to Talk:Kandahar, so anyone could view it if they like? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:08, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Trash bin in a car is an obligation in Bandung (Edit from: Gsarwa)[edit]

Hello Ikan!

From your last edit on Indonesia, it is actually a law in Indonesia to wear seat belts at all times, but I was confused by an edit from Gsarwa, because he/she also added the law of having a trash bin in a car in Bandung. Though I've stumbled to some pages and articles and they confirmed it, that it's also a law as well, only in Bandung. Could you give me some advice, whether it should be included in Indonesia page on section 'by car' as well?

Anyway, thank you! Terima kasih!

Regards, ibhi19 (talk) 10:27, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Sama-sama. I think it's most important to mention in the Bandung article, but a very brief mention in the Indonesia article is defensible. If too many local ordinances end up being written up in that article, we'll then have to reconsider. One comparison is that the sometimes very different penalties and even laws in the various U.S. states are not detailed in the United States of America article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:06, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
That's my actual concern in Indonesia page regarding the law of having a trash bin in the car. But I think it's already brief enough without further details. Alright, if it's not mentioned yet in Bandung, I might want to add it there. Thank you! ibhi19 (talk) 13:41, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
I think your concern is warranted. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:24, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Pronunciation Guide on Indonesian Phrasebook[edit]

Hello Ikan!

I thought by giving those "-k" ending on pronouncing the words will give more clarity and closeness to how most Indonesians speak, even though the "k" sound is actually inaudible. I'll admit, I gave both words a listen to "punk" in Panggang and "rank" in Go-reng on Google Translate. Most words on Malay and Indonesian actually have similar soundings, so I think your edit is also correct.

I think it could be interesting as well to talk about fundamental differences on pronouncing some words in Malay and Indonesian since we have a similar root to both languages, yet admittedly it can be quite different as well, for those who've never heard one languages to the others.

Anyway, have a nice day! Selamat siang!

Regards, ibhi19 (talk) 12:12, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Selamat pagi, for where I am. :-) Part of the issue is how I, as a New Yorker, pronounce "punk" and even more so, "rank". I believe no such vowel sounds exist in Malay or Indonesian, except maybe in the Malaysian state of Kelantan and adjoining parts of southern Thailand and such. And the "k" sounds in "punk" and "rank" are quite clearly pronounced in all native-speaker English accents I'm familiar with. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:50, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Links to Wikipedia[edit]

Hi! Sorry for my mistake and thanks for the note. What is about the Horizon Village & Resort and the Wikipedia link to Jimmy & Rosalynn Carter Work Project in Chiang Mai..? --StagiaireMGIMO (talk) 07:41, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Hi, StagiaireMGIMO. I don't understand your question. But perhaps the answer is that I simply reverted your edits in full because it's way too much trouble for me to take out all the inline Wikipedia links individually. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:02, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
OK. I will set a link to night bazaar only. Roger? --StagiaireMGIMO (talk) 00:35, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
Forgive me; I don't remember the specific context. But the standard procedure would be that the night bazaar's URL should be given in a listing for the night bazaar, not elsewhere. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:54, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
OK, I saw the edit. Please click here to read my edit summary. I'm sorry for the inconvenience, but though passages like "Situated in the heart of Chiang Mai, a few steps from the famous Night Bazaar, 450 metres from the Ping River and 800 metres to the Old City" are standard in hotel brochures, they aren't supposed to be used on Wikivoyage. Instead, we provide a street address and, if possible, longitude/latitude geo coordinates and let readers figure out where a hotel is in relation to places that might interest them. Then, in the hotel listing, we concentrate on describing the hotel itself, not what it's more or less "close" to. If you read the Wikivoyage:Don't tout page (note in particular "Avoid assertions of proximity to nearby attractions" and the "Good" and "Bad" examples), I think things may become clearer for you, so have a look. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:03, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Double standards[edit]

I do not quite agree with your course of action on my edits regarding getting around the entrance fee in Yangon pagoda, because:

  1. WV is spotted with such advices, some even worse like the constant mentioning of facts for people without an international driving in Vietnam: "Western tourists should avoid taking a rented motorbike to the White Sand Dunes if you are not in the possession of a Vietnamese driver's license." (Mui Ne#Get around) This is serious stuff that could lead to imprisoning, and far more serious than a forced exit from a government run pagoda.
  2. Travellers should be aware that if there is a cost that there might also be an enforceable law. But it is up to them and their moral to make the judgement.
  3. Money does clearly not have any moral. Arguing on moral grounds that something has to be paid is hypocritical.
  4. If people come to Myanmar with the intention to leave as little money as possible with the current government, I reckon this is worth our support, given the injustice this government stands for.
  5. Why is it me that has to question the others on this issue when I was not the one that removed this point in the first place? It was there the whole time, no one bothered. I merely restored the status quo. Shouldn't it be you asking the others for their opinion instead of taking this decision on your own?

Ceever (talk) 11:29, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

My comments in respect of your bullet points:
(1) Irrelevant and a logical fallacy (a false equivalence)
(2) Does not support the inclusion of the content. The article states the entrance fee, and readers can still decide about paying.
(3) The first sentence make no sense and is unconnected to the deleted content. The second sentence is also flawed as the issue is the morales of promoting an illegal activity.
(4) What evidence do you have payment goes to the government and not, for example, the upkeep of the temple? Should you or others have qualms about money ending up with the government then don’t visit.
(5) Because you have repeatedly added this content and are trying to defend it. That it has previously been present is not a defence, is not how Wikis work and your argument is another logical fallacy (argument from silence) —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)
Please sign your posts on talk pages by typing 4 tildes (~) in a row at the end of each post.
My comment is that Wikivoyage:Illegal activities policy is not flexible, that this issue should be discussed at Wikivoyage talk:Illegal activities policy if you want to change that policy and at Talk:Yangon with links to at least two other threads if you want to try to attain a consensus for an exception. In no way could you have any chance of achieving a consensus by merely discussing things with me, especially as User: opposes your arguments, so even if I changed my mind (and I haven't), 2-1 is not a consensus. Also "It was there before, even though it violated Wikivoyage policy but no-one noticed it" is not a relevant argument in the face of a clear policy violation. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:16, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Would you be able to look this over...[edit]

...and just reassure me that everything I'm saying here passes muster? Both in terms of being patient with inexperienced users and in terms of the nuances of our copyleft policy. Thanks. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:29, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Seems OK to me, but I didn't have any idea that only Federal government publications were public domain. Do we have any way to know for sure that the Town of Ledgeview's Parks & Recreation Plan in particular is not in public domain? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:03, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
According to the State Copyright Resource Center at Harvard University, there are only four states - California, Florida, Massachusetts, and Virginia - whose government documents don't fall under copyright, so it stands to reason that the legislation that grants federal government documents presumptive public-domain status doesn't also cover subnational governments. I has about as much success with my Google search for the copyright status of documents produced by the town government of Ledgeview, Wisconsin as you could imagine. Best practice in this scenario is to err on the side of caution, agreed? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:38, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Yes. If Downspec can show clear evidence that that the documents are in fact in the public domain, though, that would be fine. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:13, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Moving Council to Nome Article[edit]

Good point there. The reason I created the article was that someone had created a link to the page, except that no page was there, so I created one. Feel free to merge the articles. 03:25, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll take care of it when I feel up to it, or someone else will. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:52, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

New Taipei City[edit]

Thank you for the information. I realize that cities are not broken up according to each district, but I was trying to make a start. Rather than East, West, Central etc, I was planning to slowly make distinctions according to locality and function, such as the coastal region, residential areas, industrial zones etc. However, within those categories, some districts which have more attractions, such as Jinshan, would probably be given their own article. In reality, we already have separate articles for other New Taipei districts, such as Xindian, Banqiao etc. I hope this is ok. If not, then I'll leave it. —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)

I don't know whether it's OK or not; all I'm saying is that you should discuss this at Talk:New Taipei and see if a consensus can be attained for your proposals. (And parenthetically, when you post to talk pages, please "sign" by typing 4 tildes [~] in a row at the end of each post.)
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:41, 17 December 2017 (UTC)


Dear Ikan Kekek and Hobbitschuster,

dammn thats hard stuff and I can't understand the main criticism. Im not a tourism professionals or employees of the city council, im just a former student of the Dortmund University who came to study in this City. The City is today my home and I will do my best to show a good critical analysis of the city like the other cities on en.wikivoyage. Its not my place of birth but I like the city and the football club. But maybe its easier to split the points of criticism. (1) Its not a simply copy and paste of the eng. wiki article, because its my own work and I am the "main author" of a lot of Dortmund wiki articles. Please take a look on the edit history, its all my stuff. I collect the information of other sites like Mercer, Handelsblatt and so on and write them together. (2) Ok thats a good fact. Lets discuss about the section. I think its pretty charming to know the city districts of Dortmund and I saw that in a lot of articles on others sites. (3) I get it. (4) Please see above, im not a tourism professionals. Primarily I have used the existing structure and sound of other Wikivoyage articles like Rotterdam, Liverpool, Manchester and so on.

So please restore my hard work of more than 1-2 weeks (take a look to the History of the englisch Dortmund Article, its all my own work) and we can discuss about some sections.

many greetings from Dortmund DortmunderWestfront (talk) 13:04, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

DortmunderWestfront, thanks a lot for replying. I greatly appreciate your work and your time.
However, if I restore all your work, you'd need to restore all the listing templates by hand and edit every place where the tone needs editing. Since I gave you a direct link to the last version of the article before I reverted your work, why not copy and paste all useful content from there? If you like, you can click "edit" on that version and access all the code for that version.
I should say that although if you were the one to add particular sentences and phrases to a Wikipedia article, you retain the copyright to it, there are two issues: (1) At least some of that text is reused all over the Internet, so adding it verbatim is likely to greatly damage the Wikivoyage article's Google ranking; (2) You nevertheless always need to indicate in an edit summary or message on the article's talk page that you copied and pasted your own work from Wikipedia, so that other editors don't draw the conclusion that you are violating copyright.
Please let me know if you'd like any other help.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:04, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Just checking: using Google Maps to obtain information[edit]

I often get latitude information and general info about locations from Google Maps. I don't copy any original text, just phone numbers and things not actually created by Google Maps. This is allowed, right? SelfieCity (talk) 02:02, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Sure. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:31, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
Given that the template redlinks here (and we at least used to have a policy to use templates sparingly) you might have to explain what TPS is and does... I for one have no clue. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:13, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
I skipped through the Wikipedia article you linked, and my reaction is that there's no need to import this template here. If you want to make sure someone sees a post, just ping them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:57, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Sure, thank you. --Titodutta (talk) 15:19, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the information, Ikan Kekek. Selfie City (talk) 03:55, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
Any time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:20, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Khok Kloi[edit]

If a hotel has a bar, restaurant, spa, barber shop and beach club, it still normally gets only one listing, and certainly not three. So please merge relevant and non-promotional information from the Co-Sea House Thai Food and Beverage and Akyra Beach Club listings you created into the Aleenta Resort and Spa listing, then delete the separate listings. If you don't do that, someone else might do it for you or might simply save time by undoing your work. And please avoid unclear promotional expressions like "very reasonable prices". Thanks a lot.


Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:48, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Aleenta, Akyra, and Co-Sea House are totally different places. Aleenta is a five star resort around a kilometer or two from the four star Akyra. Co-Sea is a small family run restaurant, totally unconnected to the local resorts. How did you assume that they are one and the same place? If 'very reasonable prices' is considered touting, then how should I convey to travelers that the cost of the meals are not high. Thanks. 05:57, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

I re-read your post, and maybe the name 'Beach Club' implied that Akyra is just a club, and so gave the impression that it is an extension of Aleenta or connected in someway to Co-Sea Restaurant. It is not. In reality, Akyra is large four star hotel - photo: I agree though that calling a hotel 'beach club' is misleading. Thanks for following up. 06:12, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
I thought the phone numbers were the same for the different listings. If I made a mistake, I apologize. As for prices, the way you indicate what they are is by giving actual numbers. "Very reasonable" means very different things to different people in different places. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:32, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
The phone numbers for the three listings are different. There is no need for an apology. I am happy that you are checking my edits, as I am prone to make errors. I couldn't remember exact prices, but just remember thinking that the dishes were inexpensive. Next time I make an edit, I'll try to note actual prices. Thanks for your comments. 12:58, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
"Inexpensive" is clearer than "reasonable", but if it's already listed in a "Budget" subsection, that's sufficient to indicate general inexpensiveness. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:48, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
Got it. Thanks 04:11, 23 December 2017 (UTC)


To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Wikivoyage:Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. By the way, have you considered creating an account here? While you can absolutely keep contributing as an anonymous user, it promises a bunch of benefits, and no obligations. Thanks for your great work so far! I think what you were trying to do was link Meditation in Japan while have the text say "meditation classes". The way you do that is: meditation classes - without the "nowiki", naturally.

If you have any other questions, please ask by typing a message below this one. All the best,

Thank you. I registered a long time ago, but keep forgetting to sign in.

Yes, I was trying to link Meditation in Japan while have the text say "meditation classes". I was almost got, but had it back to front: Meditation in Japan. Thanks for your help 13:22, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

You're welcome. Glad I could help. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:03, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

While we're on that topic....[edit]

User:Inferno986return might be another good candidate. What do you think? Ground Zero (talk) 11:41, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree. Ask him/her. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:07, 10 January 2018 (UTC)


Please stop adding wrong information, and not least as you appear to have no relevant knowledge. Your content is wrong & is touting. It is also hypocritical for you to warn about edit warring ([6] when it is you who has removed accurate content on multiple occasions.. —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)

I never intend to remove accurate, non-touting and non-vandalistic content, and anywhere where I've done so, please restore the content with an explanation in your edit summary. All I ask of you, as of anyone else who makes substantive, non-obvious edits, is to give a clear explanation for them in your edit summary. You now finally have, I'm fully satisfied with it, and I thank you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:39, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
You repeatedly added inaccurate content, and which was also touting. In respect of edit summaries you need to consider your actions, and are requested to be civil, as summaries such as this, [7], are unnecessarily aggressive. Reading the following appears warranted [8] and [9]
I reverted edits because they weren't explained in a way I understood, and it's normally a fairly routine thing on this site to revert unexplained deletions. I thought "this is wrong" was again a claim that my English was no good (a really annoying claim that you should stop making), not a comment about the claims you were editing out being factually incorrect, which I now finally realize is what you had meant. I apologize for expressing annoyance, but all I was asking for was a clear explanation. Again, now that you've given one, I'm perfectly happy with it.
Wikis are about communication, and when you edit war and don't give clear explanations for your edits, are you surprised that someone could find that annoying? You also probably didn't see my post to User talk:, because you have a dynamic IP. I was annoyed, but I was trying to communicate with you, and the ultimate result was in fact this useful communication, though it took a while to get here.
I really do appreciate your helpful edits; just please try to clearly explain anything that might not be obvious, and if anything is reverted as an unexplained (or not clearly explained) deletion, just give a clear explanation in an edit summary or put a quick, clear explanation on the user talk page of whomever did the reversion. Sorry to be a little intemperate; I'll try to cut you some slack, but just keep communicating with other users. And do restore any text you believe I shouldn't have removed. Just give a reason in your edit summary. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:02, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply, and in response to your recent comments:
  • 'when you edit war'. Any claim about edit warring is equally valid against you.
  • 'claim that my English was no good (a really annoying claim that you should stop making)' The edit summary (and note your request 'just please try to clearly explain') was valid.
  • 'I was annoyed' You are clearly an experienced editor, and hence should not allow such to influence your edits and comments. —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)
You are also an experienced editor, though it's hard to know quite how experienced, because you have a dynamic IP and usually don't sign your posts. Please sign your posts on talk pages, and if you don't know how, I'll gladly explain (I think explain again). Anyway, as I said, I am perfectly satisfied and happy with the explanation you ultimately gave, so I don't think I have more to say unless there's something else you'd like to talk about. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:55, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

nice to meet you[edit]

Hi there,

Ok Thanks, will do, this will go along way to making wikivoyage more attractive and viewable for sure.

Kind Regards, Gun jack 2000 (talk) 22:48, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Excellent. Glad to have you.
Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:54, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Stavanger City Map 2018[edit]

Hi, I published the SVG version. Best wishes, Kevin Paul —The preceding comment was added by Kevinpaulscarrott (talkcontribs)

Thanks, Kevin. It's a beautiful map, and I see the copyright is yours. It's not Wikivoyage style. Let's talk about this at Talk:Stavanger. I can start the thread. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:15, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi Ikan, it's the official municipality city map for Stavanger, Norway. This map is strategically placed in and around the city, as well as published in the guide book and online. It would be an asset for Wikivoyage visitors. Kind regards, Kevin Paul

  • It will, if and when a Wikivoyage-style version is produced. You could also use your knowledge to add latitude and longitude to the individual listings, so the dynamic map is updated. Happy editings Ibaman (talk) 16:36, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Hello Ikan, please check the following when you have time, thanks: UPDATE 2018 Mapmaking Expedition SVG for source, PNG for output 3008 pixel City street maps: These are simplified maps of the main streets, landmarks, and other important parts of a city. --Kevinpaulscarrott (talk) 23:45, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Still doesn't look Wikivoyage style to me. We can discuss this at Talk:Stavanger, though, as most other users who might be interested won't look at my user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:47, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Add listing button[edit]

In older articles of Wikivoyage there is no "add listing" button next to the "edit source" button (e.g. How can I add this function? DocWoKav

I don't know, but you should be able to click the icons to the right of "Listings" in your edit screen. The temple is "See", the bicycle is "Do", the shopping cart is "Buy", etc. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:49, 17 January 2018 (UTC)