User talk:Ikan Kekek

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Hello, everybody! If you'd like to discuss anything with me, please post new topics at the bottom of the page and sign the posts with 4 tildes (the ~ key) in a row. Thanks!

Currently inactive discussions can be found at User talk:Ikan Kekek/archive. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:50, 28 March 2018 (UTC)


Double standards[edit]

I do not quite agree with your course of action on my edits regarding getting around the entrance fee in Yangon pagoda, because:

  1. WV is spotted with such advices, some even worse like the constant mentioning of facts for people without an international driving in Vietnam: "Western tourists should avoid taking a rented motorbike to the White Sand Dunes if you are not in the possession of a Vietnamese driver's license." (Mui Ne#Get around) This is serious stuff that could lead to imprisoning, and far more serious than a forced exit from a government run pagoda.
  2. Travellers should be aware that if there is a cost that there might also be an enforceable law. But it is up to them and their moral to make the judgement.
  3. Money does clearly not have any moral. Arguing on moral grounds that something has to be paid is hypocritical.
  4. If people come to Myanmar with the intention to leave as little money as possible with the current government, I reckon this is worth our support, given the injustice this government stands for.
  5. Why is it me that has to question the others on this issue when I was not the one that removed this point in the first place? It was there the whole time, no one bothered. I merely restored the status quo. Shouldn't it be you asking the others for their opinion instead of taking this decision on your own?

Ceever (talk) 11:29, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

My comments in respect of your bullet points:
(1) Irrelevant and a logical fallacy (a false equivalence)
(2) Does not support the inclusion of the content. The article states the entrance fee, and readers can still decide about paying.
(3) The first sentence make no sense and is unconnected to the deleted content. The second sentence is also flawed as the issue is the morales of promoting an illegal activity.
(4) What evidence do you have payment goes to the government and not, for example, the upkeep of the temple? Should you or others have qualms about money ending up with the government then don’t visit.
(5) Because you have repeatedly added this content and are trying to defend it. That it has previously been present is not a defence, is not how Wikis work and your argument is another logical fallacy (argument from silence) —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)
Please sign your posts on talk pages by typing 4 tildes (~) in a row at the end of each post.
My comment is that Wikivoyage:Illegal activities policy is not flexible, that this issue should be discussed at Wikivoyage talk:Illegal activities policy if you want to change that policy and at Talk:Yangon with links to at least two other threads if you want to try to attain a consensus for an exception. In no way could you have any chance of achieving a consensus by merely discussing things with me, especially as User: opposes your arguments, so even if I changed my mind (and I haven't), 2-1 is not a consensus. Also "It was there before, even though it violated Wikivoyage policy but no-one noticed it" is not a relevant argument in the face of a clear policy violation. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:16, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Would you be able to look this over...[edit]

...and just reassure me that everything I'm saying here passes muster? Both in terms of being patient with inexperienced users and in terms of the nuances of our copyleft policy. Thanks. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:29, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Seems OK to me, but I didn't have any idea that only Federal government publications were public domain. Do we have any way to know for sure that the Town of Ledgeview's Parks & Recreation Plan in particular is not in public domain? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:03, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
According to the State Copyright Resource Center at Harvard University, there are only four states - California, Florida, Massachusetts, and Virginia - whose government documents don't fall under copyright, so it stands to reason that the legislation that grants federal government documents presumptive public-domain status doesn't also cover subnational governments. I has about as much success with my Google search for the copyright status of documents produced by the town government of Ledgeview, Wisconsin as you could imagine. Best practice in this scenario is to err on the side of caution, agreed? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:38, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Yes. If Downspec can show clear evidence that that the documents are in fact in the public domain, though, that would be fine. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:13, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Moving Council to Nome Article[edit]

Good point there. The reason I created the article was that someone had created a link to the page, except that no page was there, so I created one. Feel free to merge the articles. 03:25, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll take care of it when I feel up to it, or someone else will. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:52, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
Funny. That was me! --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:39, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

New Taipei City[edit]

Thank you for the information. I realize that cities are not broken up according to each district, but I was trying to make a start. Rather than East, West, Central etc, I was planning to slowly make distinctions according to locality and function, such as the coastal region, residential areas, industrial zones etc. However, within those categories, some districts which have more attractions, such as Jinshan, would probably be given their own article. In reality, we already have separate articles for other New Taipei districts, such as Xindian, Banqiao etc. I hope this is ok. If not, then I'll leave it. —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)

I don't know whether it's OK or not; all I'm saying is that you should discuss this at Talk:New Taipei and see if a consensus can be attained for your proposals. (And parenthetically, when you post to talk pages, please "sign" by typing 4 tildes [~] in a row at the end of each post.)
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:41, 17 December 2017 (UTC)


Dear Ikan Kekek and Hobbitschuster,

dammn thats hard stuff and I can't understand the main criticism. Im not a tourism professionals or employees of the city council, im just a former student of the Dortmund University who came to study in this City. The City is today my home and I will do my best to show a good critical analysis of the city like the other cities on en.wikivoyage. Its not my place of birth but I like the city and the football club. But maybe its easier to split the points of criticism. (1) Its not a simply copy and paste of the eng. wiki article, because its my own work and I am the "main author" of a lot of Dortmund wiki articles. Please take a look on the edit history, its all my stuff. I collect the information of other sites like Mercer, Handelsblatt and so on and write them together. (2) Ok thats a good fact. Lets discuss about the section. I think its pretty charming to know the city districts of Dortmund and I saw that in a lot of articles on others sites. (3) I get it. (4) Please see above, im not a tourism professionals. Primarily I have used the existing structure and sound of other Wikivoyage articles like Rotterdam, Liverpool, Manchester and so on.

So please restore my hard work of more than 1-2 weeks (take a look to the History of the englisch Dortmund Article, its all my own work) and we can discuss about some sections.

many greetings from Dortmund DortmunderWestfront (talk) 13:04, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

DortmunderWestfront, thanks a lot for replying. I greatly appreciate your work and your time.
However, if I restore all your work, you'd need to restore all the listing templates by hand and edit every place where the tone needs editing. Since I gave you a direct link to the last version of the article before I reverted your work, why not copy and paste all useful content from there? If you like, you can click "edit" on that version and access all the code for that version.
I should say that although if you were the one to add particular sentences and phrases to a Wikipedia article, you retain the copyright to it, there are two issues: (1) At least some of that text is reused all over the Internet, so adding it verbatim is likely to greatly damage the Wikivoyage article's Google ranking; (2) You nevertheless always need to indicate in an edit summary or message on the article's talk page that you copied and pasted your own work from Wikipedia, so that other editors don't draw the conclusion that you are violating copyright.
Please let me know if you'd like any other help.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:04, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Just checking: using Google Maps to obtain information[edit]

I often get latitude information and general info about locations from Google Maps. I don't copy any original text, just phone numbers and things not actually created by Google Maps. This is allowed, right? SelfieCity (talk) 02:02, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Sure. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:31, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
Given that the template redlinks here (and we at least used to have a policy to use templates sparingly) you might have to explain what TPS is and does... I for one have no clue. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:13, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
I skipped through the Wikipedia article you linked, and my reaction is that there's no need to import this template here. If you want to make sure someone sees a post, just ping them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:57, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Sure, thank you. --Titodutta (talk) 15:19, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the information, Ikan Kekek. Selfie City (talk) 03:55, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
Any time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:20, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Khok Kloi[edit]

If a hotel has a bar, restaurant, spa, barber shop and beach club, it still normally gets only one listing, and certainly not three. So please merge relevant and non-promotional information from the Co-Sea House Thai Food and Beverage and Akyra Beach Club listings you created into the Aleenta Resort and Spa listing, then delete the separate listings. If you don't do that, someone else might do it for you or might simply save time by undoing your work. And please avoid unclear promotional expressions like "very reasonable prices". Thanks a lot.


Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:48, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Aleenta, Akyra, and Co-Sea House are totally different places. Aleenta is a five star resort around a kilometer or two from the four star Akyra. Co-Sea is a small family run restaurant, totally unconnected to the local resorts. How did you assume that they are one and the same place? If 'very reasonable prices' is considered touting, then how should I convey to travelers that the cost of the meals are not high. Thanks. 05:57, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

I re-read your post, and maybe the name 'Beach Club' implied that Akyra is just a club, and so gave the impression that it is an extension of Aleenta or connected in someway to Co-Sea Restaurant. It is not. In reality, Akyra is large four star hotel - photo: I agree though that calling a hotel 'beach club' is misleading. Thanks for following up. 06:12, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
I thought the phone numbers were the same for the different listings. If I made a mistake, I apologize. As for prices, the way you indicate what they are is by giving actual numbers. "Very reasonable" means very different things to different people in different places. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:32, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
The phone numbers for the three listings are different. There is no need for an apology. I am happy that you are checking my edits, as I am prone to make errors. I couldn't remember exact prices, but just remember thinking that the dishes were inexpensive. Next time I make an edit, I'll try to note actual prices. Thanks for your comments. 12:58, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
"Inexpensive" is clearer than "reasonable", but if it's already listed in a "Budget" subsection, that's sufficient to indicate general inexpensiveness. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:48, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
Got it. Thanks 04:11, 23 December 2017 (UTC)


To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Wikivoyage:Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. By the way, have you considered creating an account here? While you can absolutely keep contributing as an anonymous user, it promises a bunch of benefits, and no obligations. Thanks for your great work so far! I think what you were trying to do was link Meditation in Japan while have the text say "meditation classes". The way you do that is: meditation classes - without the "nowiki", naturally.

If you have any other questions, please ask by typing a message below this one. All the best,

Thank you. I registered a long time ago, but keep forgetting to sign in.

Yes, I was trying to link Meditation in Japan while have the text say "meditation classes". I was almost got, but had it back to front: Meditation in Japan. Thanks for your help 13:22, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

You're welcome. Glad I could help. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:03, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

While we're on that topic....[edit]

User:Inferno986return might be another good candidate. What do you think? Ground Zero (talk) 11:41, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree. Ask him/her. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:07, 10 January 2018 (UTC)


Please stop adding wrong information, and not least as you appear to have no relevant knowledge. Your content is wrong & is touting. It is also hypocritical for you to warn about edit warring ([1] when it is you who has removed accurate content on multiple occasions.. —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)

I never intend to remove accurate, non-touting and non-vandalistic content, and anywhere where I've done so, please restore the content with an explanation in your edit summary. All I ask of you, as of anyone else who makes substantive, non-obvious edits, is to give a clear explanation for them in your edit summary. You now finally have, I'm fully satisfied with it, and I thank you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:39, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
You repeatedly added inaccurate content, and which was also touting. In respect of edit summaries you need to consider your actions, and are requested to be civil, as summaries such as this, [2], are unnecessarily aggressive. Reading the following appears warranted [3] and [4]
I reverted edits because they weren't explained in a way I understood, and it's normally a fairly routine thing on this site to revert unexplained deletions. I thought "this is wrong" was again a claim that my English was no good (a really annoying claim that you should stop making), not a comment about the claims you were editing out being factually incorrect, which I now finally realize is what you had meant. I apologize for expressing annoyance, but all I was asking for was a clear explanation. Again, now that you've given one, I'm perfectly happy with it.
Wikis are about communication, and when you edit war and don't give clear explanations for your edits, are you surprised that someone could find that annoying? You also probably didn't see my post to User talk:, because you have a dynamic IP. I was annoyed, but I was trying to communicate with you, and the ultimate result was in fact this useful communication, though it took a while to get here.
I really do appreciate your helpful edits; just please try to clearly explain anything that might not be obvious, and if anything is reverted as an unexplained (or not clearly explained) deletion, just give a clear explanation in an edit summary or put a quick, clear explanation on the user talk page of whomever did the reversion. Sorry to be a little intemperate; I'll try to cut you some slack, but just keep communicating with other users. And do restore any text you believe I shouldn't have removed. Just give a reason in your edit summary. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:02, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply, and in response to your recent comments:
  • 'when you edit war'. Any claim about edit warring is equally valid against you.
  • 'claim that my English was no good (a really annoying claim that you should stop making)' The edit summary (and note your request 'just please try to clearly explain') was valid.
  • 'I was annoyed' You are clearly an experienced editor, and hence should not allow such to influence your edits and comments. —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)
You are also an experienced editor, though it's hard to know quite how experienced, because you have a dynamic IP and usually don't sign your posts. Please sign your posts on talk pages, and if you don't know how, I'll gladly explain (I think explain again). Anyway, as I said, I am perfectly satisfied and happy with the explanation you ultimately gave, so I don't think I have more to say unless there's something else you'd like to talk about. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:55, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

nice to meet you[edit]

Hi there,

Ok Thanks, will do, this will go along way to making wikivoyage more attractive and viewable for sure.

Kind Regards, Gun jack 2000 (talk) 22:48, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Excellent. Glad to have you.
Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:54, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Stavanger City Map 2018[edit]

Hi, I published the SVG version. Best wishes, Kevin Paul —The preceding comment was added by Kevinpaulscarrott (talkcontribs)

Thanks, Kevin. It's a beautiful map, and I see the copyright is yours. It's not Wikivoyage style. Let's talk about this at Talk:Stavanger. I can start the thread. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:15, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi Ikan, it's the official municipality city map for Stavanger, Norway. This map is strategically placed in and around the city, as well as published in the guide book and online. It would be an asset for Wikivoyage visitors. Kind regards, Kevin Paul

  • It will, if and when a Wikivoyage-style version is produced. You could also use your knowledge to add latitude and longitude to the individual listings, so the dynamic map is updated. Happy editings Ibaman (talk) 16:36, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Hello Ikan, please check the following when you have time, thanks: UPDATE 2018 Mapmaking Expedition SVG for source, PNG for output 3008 pixel City street maps: These are simplified maps of the main streets, landmarks, and other important parts of a city. --Kevinpaulscarrott (talk) 23:45, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Still doesn't look Wikivoyage style to me. We can discuss this at Talk:Stavanger, though, as most other users who might be interested won't look at my user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:47, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Add listing button[edit]

In older articles of Wikivoyage there is no "add listing" button next to the "edit source" button (e.g. How can I add this function? DocWoKav

I don't know, but you should be able to click the icons to the right of "Listings" in your edit screen. The temple is "See", the bicycle is "Do", the shopping cart is "Buy", etc. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:49, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Hermann page update[edit]

Thanks for the message about this page. I really appreciate it. I live in this beautiful town so I may come back and make more updates to make the page better. Hope you have a great day. Cheers. —The preceding comment was added by Lee Pettijohn (talkcontribs)

You're welcome, and that would be great. (Parenthetically, on talk [discussion] pages only, it's the practice on Wikis to sign your post by typing 4 tildes [~] at the end of each post.)
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:16, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Revenue from social media[edit]

Surprised by this Revert. It is clear touting to get additional revenue from Youtube channel hits. Maybe you regard that as more acceptable than when a restaurant does it, but I make no distinction. Andrewssi2 (talk) 21:54, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

OK, revert my edit if you like. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:31, 26 January 2018 (UTC)


I have created a new page Rampurhat. I think I have goofed up in formatting the page. The top details above the banner have not come through and there seems to be something wrong with the Category:Birbhum-Murshidabad. Please help in setting these right. Regards. - Chandan Guha (talk) 02:01, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

I'm glad to help. I deleted the nonexistent template on the name Rampurhat at the beginning of the article: The name should be bolded but should never have curly brackets around it, which produces a red link to a nonexistent template. And in IsPartOf, you had simply misspelled Birbhum-Murshidabad.
Question: Why do you have a listing for a temple in Tarapith in the "See" section? Also, you can remove the default city name, Rampurhat, from hotel listings.
Please let me know if I can be of help in any other way.
Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:39, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
Many thanks. - Chandan Guha (talk) 05:14, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
You're most welcome. Thanks for adding content! Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:58, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Removing the red exclamation point on trusted users[edit]

Hello, Ikan. I have a first adminy question that hopefully you don't mind answering. There are some longer-standing and presumably by now thoroughly trustworthy contributors who are still not autopatrollers, and whose edits still bear that annoying panicky red exclamation mark. Off the top of my head, I can think of Grahamsands (on WV since 2016) and Scalytail (joined about the same time as me; 5 years ago), though I may have noticed others in the past few months. Unless either of them have shady pasts on WV that I'm not aware of, it seems fairly self-evident that both users should be autopatrollers by now.

So the question is, is that something I and indeed any admin can (and should) change whenever we notice it should be, or is that something we need to gather consensus for, or do we ask the permission of the user? BTW, I know that I can make them both autopatrollers right now if I want to and have worked out how to do so, but really want to know if there is a procedure to be followed before I do that. Don't want to put my foot in it in my first week! Cheers, --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:15, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

This is something individual admins just do, whenever they consider it appropriate. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:43, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
Righty ho. Thanks for a quick response. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:09, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
You bet. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:49, 1 February 2018 (UTC)


Hey man, I just wanted to drop by and say I'm happy you're still active here. You've made lots of good edits and welcomed me to Wikivoyage and it's good to see such a friendly member still active :) Keep it up! Branthecan (talk)

Thank you. I'm glad you've stuck around and continued to make excellent edits, too! Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:31, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

About your revert on Haryana page[edit]

As you suggested, I googled 'Jat Reserve', but results are about en:w:Jat reservation agitation. As it is under 'other destinations' in Haryana wikivoyage, I don't think it should be there as it is not a destination. 1997kB (talk) 06:34, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Also after checking history of Haryana originally it was Jarwa Reserve (which in andaman), but later I think it has been vandalized changed (here and here). 1997kB (talk) 06:40, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Those are surely good-faith edits, not vandalism, I would think, since they seemingly corrected the name of the reserve. Right now, there is no article about the Jat Reserve, so if you think it's of no interest to a visitor, I suggest you start a thread at Talk:Haryana proposing the deletion of the listing and giving support for your opinion that it's of no interest to travelers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:07, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
But there is no place in Haryana called 'Jat Reserve', why we should waste time for a place, which even doesn't exist ? 1997kB (talk) 07:20, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
OK, if there is no such place, then go ahead and delete! You can type "doesn't exist" or something similar in your edit summary. Thanks for explaining. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:42, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
I made the deletion. Thanks again. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:28, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for your time! 1997kB (talk) 08:29, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
Any time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:39, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Feedback Welcome from DJH918[edit]

I just wanted to thank you for the feedback. I'm ultra new to this am learning with each edit. Forgive me if I don't get things quite right. Please keep the feedback coming! Djh918 (talk) 23:07, 13 February 2018 (UTC)DJH918

Nothing to forgive! Thank you for adding the content! Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:19, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

adventures vs adventurous (next-to-impossible destinations)[edit]

Hi, Ikan Kekek,

Yes, I prefer that wording. Here’s the context:

That said, even cruises to the Antarctic coast are more adventures than regular cruises.

In the sentence pattern [something] is more [word] (than [something else]), [word] should be an adjective, just because that’s what the average English speaker will expect. I read “cruises … are more adventures” and thought it was a typo, which is why I changed it.

the point is that they are adventures, rather than merely cruises.

That might be so, but I’d argue that a cruise is an adventure either way. There’s no need to use an unusual grammar structure to express such a minor nuance. These pages should be as clear as possible—after all, it’s not poetry, it’s a travel guide.

Dongzhimen (talk) 07:38, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

I haven't been on a lot of cruises (the closest I got was a ferry-cum-cruise from Hong Kong to Shanghai that took 3 nights and 2.5 days), but I understand that quite a lot of them are mostly a bunch of people stuffing their faces at the buffet, with occasional port visits, and not much of an adventure at all. I offered you an alternative wording: "they are adventures, rather than merely cruises". Or if you prefer "rather than ordinary cruises". I didn't create the sentence we're arguing about, but my English usage is different from yours: I would apply "adventurous" to a person or maybe an animal such as a cat, not an experience. An experience is an adventure or it isn't. I understand your objection to the shorthand of "more + noun", though I consider it marginal issue that can be resolved with a phrasing like "[a] is more of an [x] than a [y]". Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:02, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
How about this: "unlike normal cruises, antarctic cruises are usually marketed as adventure tourism and comfort level as well as price usually differ between non-Antarctic and antarctic cruises". The second half can be left out. Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:32, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
Fine with me (providing "Antarctic" is always capitalized). What do you think, Dongzhimen? Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:34, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
Sounds okay to me. Just add a comma after "tourism". I might say "both comfort level and price" to make it a little more concise, too, but it sounds good. Dongzhimen (talk) 08:44, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
A comma is needed after "tourism" if it's followed by an independent clause, but I'm not going to use one. I will try a somewhat edited version of this and you can see what you think of it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:43, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
Edit. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:48, 25 February 2018 (UTC)


Hello! Sorry to disturb you. Is the autopatroll rights open to anybody? I'd really like to be more engaged in this community, and I think autopatrolling would be best for me. Jay Jay Marcus Keize13 (talk) 12:44, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Autopatroller means that your edits don't have exclamation points in WV:Recent changes patrol. Admins give that status to people who've been editing for a few months and in their opinion don't need close supervision. I think what you may be looking for is Patroller or Admin status. That's great! I think you should be an Autopatroller for a little while first and that it may take a bit more time before you become an Autopatroller. However, this site definitely could use more hands on deck with a mop and pail, so I'll keep your offer in mind for sure, and I really appreciate your contributions and desire to be more helpful.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:38, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Ethiopian Jews[edit]

Hey there. I'm just writing to say, please edit the part about the Ethiopian Jews to what you feel is more accurate. I am not an expert on this, but I just felt that we should mention other Jewish communities that are neither Ashkenazi, Sephardic nor Mizrachi to accurately reflect the diversity within the worldwide Jewish community. At least based on my understanding, the Ethiopian Jews do not belong to either of those three traditions.

Speaking of which, I was wondering if we should mention the Abayudaya community in Uganda, since they also follow Jewish religious customs. The only difference is that unlike the other communities, the Abayudaya are not descended from the original Jews, but instead converted to Judaism as a tribe. The dog2 (talk) 21:51, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

I agree with your impulse. And on the question: Sure, why not? And there are also Jews in Ghana whose ancestors seem to have come directly from Israel after the destruction of the Temple. I'm not an expert, either, but I think it's quite unclear that all the Jewish communities you mentioned got there solely because they settled from somewhere else. I think there's been mixing with local populations nearly everywhere and also some conversion to Judaism in various places. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:42, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
This Wikipedia article may be of interest in this discussion. To give on minor point away, the Khazar myth has no basis in genetics. Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:05, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
The Khazars did exist, though. The myth is that Ashkenazim are all descended from Khazars, not that there was no Khazar Jewish kingdom. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:25, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
Yes, that's what I was getting at: The antisemitic myth that Ashkenazi Jews are not "real Jews" has been thoroughly discredited by genetics as if the other evidence hadn't been enough... Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:24, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
The thing is, though, that anti-Semitic myth is completely meaningless under Jewish law, because Judaism is not a race and doesn't require that one's physical ancestors be Jewish. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:32, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
Most certainly there would have a lot of intermarriage. For instance, if you look at the Kaifeng Jews, they are believe to be descended from Persian Jewish traders who settled in China from the Tang to Song Dynasties, but by the Qing Dynasty, they were virtually indistinguishable in physical appearance from the non-Jewish Chinese. And of course, Ethiopian Jews look like other Ethiopians, Arab Jews look like other Arabs and European Jews look like other Europeans.
Speaking of the Abayudaya, based on the stuff on WP, one of the leaders decided to become Jewish in order to resist the British occupation of Uganda, so it was a fairly recent conversion. And I recently came across the news that there is a recently-discovered tribe in Zimbabwe that was nominally Christian or Muslim, but followed Jewish religious rituals. The dog2 (talk) 01:33, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
I haven't heard about the Zimbabwean tribe. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:57, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
Here's the article. [5] The dog2 (talk) 02:34, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
I knew about the Lemba being descended from Kohanim. I didn't know they lived in Zimbabwe as well as South Africa. I also didn't know they retained some Jewish practices. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:45, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Chasidic vs Litvish[edit]

From what I recently came across, it appears that there is a second group of "ultra-Orthodox" Jews called the Litvish or Yeshivish Jews, who are supposed to be distinct from the Chasidim. I would like to ask what you know about this, and if they are indeed distinct from the Chasidim, whether you can write something about them in the Judaism article. The dog2 (talk) 17:02, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Litvakers are of Lithuanian origin and a yeshiva is a place to learn about Judaism. Otherwise, I have no idea what you'd be referring to. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:32, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
This blog post mentions something about them being two distinct traditions, but I'm not sure how accurate it is. The dog2 (talk) 19:15, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Thank you![edit]

I have received your notification, thank you! —The preceding comment was added by Naturista2018 (talkcontribs)

Sure thing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:29, 4 April 2018 (UTC)


Does the article now have a proper template? OnreOfFinland (talk) 07:21, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Almost, but it's lacking important codes at the bottom. I'll fix that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:23, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
See these edits, and also have a look at Wikivoyage:Quick small city article template and Wikivoyage:Small city article template. Let me know if you have any other questions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:26, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
Oh yeah, got it, thanks! OnreOfFinland (talk) 07:27, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
You're welcome! Thanks for starting the article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:35, 7 April 2018 (UTC)


My English is not that good to write English texts accurately. Regarding the safety section, I experienced the following and you may wish to add anything you consider important to the article. a) Not recommended to separate from the group too far, especially on Erta Ale (from what I heard, the German tourist was shot after he and his guide got too far away from others at some timepoint). b) There are nowhere warning signs or fences, so stay away some 1-1,5 meters from the Erta Ale crater edge. c) Don't touch the water in Dallol ponds, as it contains acid. d) Next hospital is in Mekelle, which is several hours away (luckily, there is now a good road to Berhale, which Chinese have built a couple of years ago) and e) Common sense is always very important. --A.Savin (talk) 03:27, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll work on it. That really is quite clear. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:13, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
I added some of this (not the common sense, which is for better or worse assumed). Please do feel free to edit the text; if your English is off, someone can always edit that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:05, 8 April 2018 (UTC)


why are you accusing me of being a vandal or a sockpuppet? I'am not. --Arabia619 (talk) 17:41, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Apologies. It's simply because to this point, your username and editing style resembled that of one. I'm very glad you are not. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:04, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Recent developments at Talk:United States of America[edit]

I was wondering what your thoughts might be regarding instituting a topic ban for TheDog2's repeated edits at United States of America#Respect. We've never done this at Wikivoyage before and it's uncharted territory in terms of local policy; however, topic bans are a relatively commonplace procedure at Wikipedia, he's too valuable a contributor to ban entirely, and it seems like after as many times as he's ignored our pleas to find something else to focus on, we need to make a stronger statement this time. Normally I'd take this straight to the user ban page first, but given what an unusual situation this is, I figured it would be good to bounce it off another senior contributor to see if it would be appropriate to even bring it up for a nomination. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:28, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

CC: User:Ground Zero -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:29, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
I must say, I frankly do not understand the obsession of this user with making some vaguely "this political faction is evil" statements in that article. I am not sure where it is coming from and it is draining our resources... Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:10, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
I definitely see topic bans as being a useful tool for dealing with editors in particular situations. would it be appropriate in this circumstance? No. The last time TheDog2 edited the respect section was April 8, when all s/he did was move a subsection from "Cope" into "Respect". His/her latest contribution was to propose an addition on the talk page. @Mx. Granger: and I have responded with brief comments expressing opposition and suggesting that we move on quickly. I would not want to impose a topic ban for proposing something on a talk page. Further, TheDog2 has shown respect for other members of the community by editing the USA article to reduce the bloat. I think s/he will get the message when editors respond as we have. Ground Zero (talk) 20:16, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
As someone who occasionally watches but doesn't participate in Talk:USA, I agree with Ground Zero. A topic ban is not warranted given the adjustment in behaviour (i.e. going to the talk page first), and would be a drastic step - both for the user and for our site as a whole. Obviously you're free to propose it, but you know how I'd vote. Apologies to Ikan for all the notifications he's going to receive. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:49, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
So far, there's been no big derail, and I will refrain from replying to his latest comment. I would keep a topic ban in reserve and doubt it's necessary now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:53, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
Okay. That's why I brought it up here first, rather than causing unnecessary rancor by charging ahead with an actual userban nomination. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:54, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
Good thinking. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:56, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
Agreed. Ground Zero (talk) 02:55, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

im back[edit]

bali and india did it

well maybe the walking Delhi and Sanur

for that matter the air around McLeod Ganj

one of them... JarrahTree (talk) 00:40, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Glad to have you back. Articles about Indonesia and India always need help. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:47, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
thanks - spooky checking wikipedia english articles they have been so neglected - there was even a page or two about bali that had voyage terminology and format. apologies for prolonged absences - hope to make for lost time. JarrahTree (talk) 00:50, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
We all have lives. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:52, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
yup another grandchild last week ;)
contoh: - saya bingung, bagaimana voyage di dalam wp en ? OK just a very very cursory check it looks like a lift from a very under-developed article of early days wiktravel or voyage... very tricky the different logics of voyage and en and potential 'lifts' from one to the other in either direcction. I think there was only another one - when have more time will investigate further both of them JarrahTree (talk) 01:02, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Syabasy on the new grandchild! My Indonesian, such as it ever was, is rusty, but I get your point. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:49, 13 May 2018 (UTC)


Greetings Ikan!

Do you think my contribs to the community is good enough? And one more! What are my chances of passing an RfA?

Regards, Jay😎 (talk) 13:55, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Your contributions are excellent. What is an RfA? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:43, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
  • "Request for Adminship", maybe...? Ibaman (talk) 17:53, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
OK, that's logical. And my remark would be to wait a year or at least several more months before trying again. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:55, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Judaism and Dogs[edit]

Hey there, as you may already know, Muslims consider dogs to be unclean, so it is not permissible for Muslims to touch dogs or keep dogs as pets. My understanding is that there are passages in the Tanakh that describe dogs with a degree of contempt, so my question is whether or not there is a similar religious prohibition on dogs for Jews. If so, I think it is something that should be mentioned in the Respect section of Judaism article. The dog2 (talk) 18:18, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm not close to an expert on Jewish Law, but as far as I know, there isn't. Also, I didn't want to get into complex technicalities of Islamic Law, but it's more complicated than Muslims flat-out not being allowed to have pet dogs. Some Muslims do, and it's OK, in their opinion, as long as they wash and say special prayers after they come into contact with dog saliva. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:34, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Urgently need 2nd opinion[edit]

A user has made about 10 edits each to Downtown Shanghai & Shanghai recently, mainly moving text (20,000+ bytes) from the former to the latter. This reverses a lot of the work I did in creating the Downtown article, but that is OK. I'm certain these edits are being done in good faith, and I think most of them are things that should be done.

However, I feel strongly they should not be done until after the Downtown article finishes its time as DotM. My comments to the user are at User_talk:Ar2332#Downtown_Shanghai_edits & include a link to earlier discussion.

I'm hardly unbiased here & I'm not certain what should be done now, so I'd like at least one other admin to look. Maybe you & User:AndreCarrotflower? Pashley (talk) 22:18, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

This user has contributed very constructively to these articles, e.g. by drawing their maps, & has been active on Talk:Shanghai as well. Pashley (talk) 22:31, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
And has been excellent in articles about Israel, too, among other places. This is a disagreement, nothing more. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:40, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
These edits have removed a lot of good content from a DotM. These edits would be problematic enough anyway but are near-vandalism when they occur to a DotM featured article. I would advise quickly rolling back these edits and then maybe considering going ahead with his edits after the Downtown Shanghai is no longer a DotM. Wikivoyagers who saw this article as it is now would be quite disappointed that it was being featured as a destination of the month. Selfie City (talk) 23:56, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
I agree, except that I'd reaffirm that I have no doubt no harm was intended. Thank you for taking charge of this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:17, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
You're welcome. And yes, I've looked back at Talk:Shanghai#More_on_districts and the editor that removed the information is not a vandal or anything of the sort. I wouldn't be surprised if the editor did not realize that the article was being featured and did not realize the significance these edits had. It definitely feel, though, that we don't want to give potential new Wikivoyagers a bad impression of the site when even the DotM only appears half-written. Selfie City (talk) 00:22, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Follow-up is at Talk:Shanghai#Decision_on_Downtown_Shanghai Pashley (talk) 19:48, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Reverting one of my recent edits[edit]

Dear Ikan

Thank you very much for your message. I received a message telling me that my "edit appeared to be an attempt to use this site to advertise or promote a business or service" in Yazd page while there was not such this purpose and as a local I tried to add the property to the listings. However, after reading "Wikivoyage's guidelines on identifying promotional edits" I noticed that some guidelines were not applied. So, I try to change these parts and add the listing again. I hope all the guidelines will be met this time.

Thank you very much for your consideration. Kind regards —The preceding comment was added by Seidhasani (talkcontribs)

Thank you. Very much appreciated.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:17, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

A second set of eyes[edit]

I can't tell if this user is our Telstra friend or just a newbie with a strange question and a very similar username pattern. What do you think? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:49, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

I'd say it's unclear so far, so let's see what his/her next couple of posts are like. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:03, 31 May 2018 (UTC)


Why did you revert my edit? I was just fixing a broken link. --Numberguy6 (talk) 14:24, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Because you were editing someone else's user page. Normally, no-one but the user should edit their own page. However, if you had typed in an edit summary that you were fixing a broken link, that would have been OK. You type an edit summary in the "Summary:" box below your edit screen. Thanks. Meanwhile, I'll revert my reversion - and include an edit summary. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:37, 2 June 2018 (UTC)


Thanks for the courtesy ping. I think you're right. After sending that welcome, I had second thoughts about the article. It is a sparsely populated area with many small towns. Perhaps an article can be created on the broader Coolamon Shire (WP article) because each town will only have 1 or 2 listings of note and the local tourism agency promotes Coolamon as a whole (see [6] and [7]). I didn't realise it was a Telstra vandal so I apologise. Perhaps one day Ardlethan will be a redirect to Coolamon Shire but until then it should be deleted. Gizza (roam) 05:12, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Cool, and thanks for the quick reply. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:18, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Recent vandal is same vandal[edit]

The recent vandals you just blocked (good job!) and whose edits were quickly reverted is the same vandal that who went on a wild rampage a little while ago, although that time, he/she used a different username. I know it's the same vandal because both times, the vandal used the same language and said near-terrorist things (ex. that North Korea was good, Putin, etc.). What keeps happening is that he/she signs up on Wikivoyage, so even if we keep blocking their username, they get on Wikivoyage with a different username and do the vandalism all over again. Is there any way we could block them so they can't keep doing this? Selfie City (talk) 23:37, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't know. Maybe if you post to Wikivoyage talk: Vandalism in progress, someone might be able to design a filter. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:28, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Ethnic costumes[edit]

Regarding the "cultural appropriation" controversy, the reason why I thought it should be mentioned in some form is because it has made news headlines a few times, so not mentioning it kind of feels like ignoring the elephant in the room. For instance, it was in the news that many Japanese-Americans were offended when Katy Perry wore a kimono at one of her concerts, while Japanese people actually from Japan did not find it even the slightest bit offensive. The most recent one, with that girl wearing a cheongsam to her prom, actually made global headlines. She got a lot of abuse from many Chinese-Americans (and others as well) on Twitter for doing that, while if you look at Weibo (the Chinese equivalent of Twitter), Chinese people from China were actually scratching their heads as to why Chinese-Americans found it offensive (and as a Chinese-Singaporean, I actually don't find it offensive at all), and many were even supportive of her.

I guess I'd like to ask for your opinion on how we can cover this in a fair way. On one hand, I don't want to misrepresent all left-wing Americans as oversensitive, because it is clearly not everyone, but it is true that many millennial Americans find it offensive (I'm currently not at UC Berkeley, NYU, or one of those far-left universities) if you wear an ethnic costume that is not from your ethnicity, because they consider that to be "cultural appropriation". The dog2 (talk) 01:03, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

"There have been some high-profile cases of anger by Americans toward other Americans who wear the traditional clothing of other nations and peoples." But you simply can't claim it's a pervasive problem if I've never gotten anything but compliments on my batik shirts. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:45, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Of course I'm not claiming that all Americans are offended. I will say right now that I have in fact met left-wing Americans who think that this "cultural appropriation" thing has gone too far. But it is most certainly more prevalent among college-educated millennials than in other sectors of the American population. I guess the important question is whether or not it is a large enough sector of the population to warrant any sort of warning to visitors. And based on the firestorm that we saw on Twitter, I think that some mention is warranted. But anyway, I think I'm good with the way you have phrased it. The dog2 (talk) 03:02, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
OK, cool. By the way, if anyone ever had the temerity to object to my wearing batik, I'd ask them to say it in Malay. And of course you can imagine the discussion that would follow. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:20, 12 June 2018 (UTC)


"Montages are problematic in particular for a travel guide, because their aesthetic is reminiscent of a travel brochure, or some other promotional, rather than informational, material."

What lame reasoning for not allowing collages. I simply used the Wikipedia collage/montage photo because it's a very convenient way to show a wider representation (9 sites) of the town rather than 2 photos. So does that mean Wikipedia articles look like travel brochures?

You've lowered the quality of the article, and wasted both of our time. I will not waste any more time going and hunting for individual photos.

--RaffiKojian (talk) 06:38, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Sorry you feel that way. I gave you the link to the reasoning, and it looks like you read it but disagree. That's OK! I don't agree with every Wikivoyage policy, either, and anyone is free to argue for a change in policy. In this case, the place to do that is Wikivoyage talk:Image policy. Please present your case there, rather than arguing with me for enforcing a policy which has so far been a consensus. Consensus is the Wiki way, and it's subject to change by a new consensus but not by the actions of an individual who disagrees with it in the absence of a new consensus. Thanks a lot. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:43, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
There are articles out there that show how the type of behavior you're exhibiting strongly discourages others from editing on Wikipedia/Wikivoyage. So I hope you consider the reasons why that is, and instead of destroying peoples improvements, you focus on improving articles. --RaffiKojian (talk) 06:48, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
I added 3 thumbnails. We're all volunteers here, and if you prefer not to edit rather than to edit within Wikivoyage guidelines, that's your call. Have a good night. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:57, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
And there's that well-documented attitude, now literally telling me to not to edit over a nonsensical "guideline" that you feel the overwhelming need to go around and enforce. --RaffiKojian (talk) 07:05, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Look at your user talk page. I look forward to seeing your argument at Wikivoyage talk:Image policy. I will not argue with you about this anymore on my user talk page, nor on yours. And if you think my conduct as an admin is a problem, try posting to Wikivoyage:Administrator nominations to suggest that I be desysopped. Good luck. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:09, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
I am not about to go about trying to change policies and guidelines here, nor reporting an admin. I have simply made two points. 1) how silly it is that a collage taken from Wikipedia isn't allowed here because it would make the article look like a brochure. So either Wikipedia articles look like brochures or they don't. 2) the type of behavior you are exhibiting is shown to drive away less frequent editors. So since you are an admin, which I did not know, you can do with this information what you like. You can see my point about the collages and try to change the policy yourself and you can leave harmless changes be (and certainly never suggest someone leave the project over something like this), or you can disagree with me and/or ignore these points. Anyway, I too have made my points repeatedly and am done. --RaffiKojian (talk) 07:30, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
I don't think you understand. I absolutely do not want you to stop editing; what I want you to do is stop blaming me for enforcing a guideline you don't like. It's not worth it for me to enforce it when I get this kind of response, that's right, but no-one has a special exemption from guidelines developed over the course of discussions here, and if that's anyone's fault, it's the fault of the entire Wiki setup and the people who engaged in the discussions that resulted in the consensus in favor of the existing guidelines. I frankly did not develop the policy on collages, though I probably agree with it because the resulting photos are smaller and therefore less user-friendly than a smaller number of bigger images and a Commons link. But I think the bigger issue is that my enforcement made Wikivoyage no fun for you, and your response made it no fun for me. So therefore, in the future, you are likely to deal with someone else on this issue, if it comes up again. And I hope it doesn't. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:00, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Redirect of Ajanta[edit]

Thanks for contribution, Ajanta has world famous caves and has heritage site. It was wrongly/purposely redirected to the Aurangabad city to take an undue advantage for redirect tourists. Caves were 120 Km far from that city and It has its own pages on Wikipedia also. I am new to Wiki Voyage Help to make this page as per Wikivoyage standards. -Mahajandeepakv (talk)

I welcome you here, but as I said before, you need to make an argument at Talk:Aurangabad, and not on my user talk page, where (a) no-one else is likely to read it and (b) you're arguing with someone who has yet to have any opinion on the substance. Unilaterally undoing a redirect is irregular, and in any case, you would need to use a Wikivoyage:Article template and not plagiarize from Wikipedia. Please read Wikivoyage:Copyleft and Wikivoyage:Wikipedia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:45, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the guidence - Mahajandeepakv (talk)
Certainly. You may indeed have a good argument, but please make it. And what kind of article template would be appropriate? A park template, perhaps? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:55, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

"Block evasion"[edit]

When I was banned, I thought it was just for my account. Thanks for letting me know.

Libertarianmoderate (talk) 22:52, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

You bet. That kind of things goes for all Wiki sites. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:04, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

health issues[edit]

Because of my very erratic presence - I am unsure where to put the answer to Andy's question at Australia - talk -

that is health care agreements in the Australia article - any idea where I should put it - or did i miss something? JarrahTree (talk) 12:50, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

"Stay healthy" would be the logical section for this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:08, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
Thanks JarrahTree (talk) 09:57, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Page banners[edit]

Why won't the page banner show up on my homepage? I did exactly what User:thunderingtyphoons! said.—The preceding comment was added by Libertarianmoderate (talkcontribs)

I don't know, but a minor point: Please sign your posts on talk pages by typing 4 tildes (~) in a row. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:36, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
User:Libertarianmoderate, I fixed it for you. In the pagebanner tag, 'File:' shouldn't be included. --ϒpsilon (talk) 04:55, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Central Kathmandu[edit]

I appreciate that the bdi template is no longer used, but I am unable copy and paste Wikivoyage listing templates. If I open new templates for each listing, then I will need to transfer every detail to the new template line by line (name, address, phone number etc etc will all need to be individually retyped for each listing), and, unfortunately, I just don't have the time to do that. So, what do you suggest - that we use the bdi templates as we are transferring a large number of listings to new articles or just leave the information on the original page until someone has the time and energy to type the information for each listing into a new template. I'd be grateful for your advise. 11:55, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

It has already been suggested that you go into the Kathmandu article in edit mode, so that when you copy and paste, you are pasting the original Wikivoyage listing template codes, too. Unfortunately, you or someone else already got rid of some of the important formatting in the Kathmandu article. This has created a big mess, because it decreases the quality of the information and means that if you can't restore the codes, someone else has to laboriously do so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:05, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
Yes, but how do I copy and paste a listing in edit mode. It is not allowing me to do so. It only allows me to copy a listing when out of edit mode, but then it is in bti format. Please advise me on this. Thank you. 18:27, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
Ground Zero has explained it to me, and it works. Apologies for the trouble. 18:39, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
No problem. I greatly appreciate your motivation, effort and cooperation. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:46, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

JohnBell3290 and User:Kennock483[edit]

I have reason to believe that the two above users are Telstra sockpuppets.

1: No user page, no discussions (Testra's defining trait) 2: Editing recently edited pages (and some of the same edits) and like Telstra did. 3: A strange attraction to pages I made or edited heavily 4: Small, harmless, but not very helpful edits.

Would you mind having a look at them? Libertarianmoderate (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm on the road. Someone else should (and I'm guessing probably did) take care of this. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:59, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Something regarding an old thread on my talk page.[edit]

I know this is not travel-related, but with respect to a discussion we had on my talk page a long time ago, the SPLC has admitted its mistake and apologised to Maajid Nawaz for calling him an anti-Muslim extremist when he clearly isn't one. In light of this recent development, I retract what I said about the SPLC being an extremist organisation, and I wish you and your left wing buddies all the best in the continuing fight against bigotry. The dog2 (talk) 03:34, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. Thanks for the news, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:23, 26 July 2018 (UTC)


I know what I said might have come off the wrong way. If it did, I apologize. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 23:18, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

No apology needed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:35, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Stub articles[edit]

I thought about what you said at Talk:Maroua, and I'm going to take your advice. I'll spend more time working on the articles I've created and other blank ones, and less on creating new ones. For example, I added more content to Numidia. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 17:25, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Great. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:26, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
You could be even more helpful if you used listing templates. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:44, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
The templates here are so annoying. It's hard enough to have to deal with the Pagebanner and ispartof templates. You can't copy and paste easily, you have to build them yourself, etc. I really do not see a reason for the listing templates when a bullet list or what I did would work just as easily without dealing with templates. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 20:21, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Make the argument at Wikivoyage talk:Listings. So far, I've found the templates to give a superior look to anyone's non-templated version. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:07, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
@Libertarianmoderate:, I am guessing from your comments above that you have not figured out how to work the listings templates. They are actually quite easy. When you open an edit screen, look above the box that you put text in. On the line above the text box, you should see "B I... {some other symbols}... Listings" and then a series of symbols: a building with columns for See), a bicycle (for Do), a shopping cart (for Buy), a knife and fork (for Eat), a margtini glass (for Drink), a bed (for Sleep). If you put the cursor in the text box, and then click on one of the symbols, the appropriate listing template will appear in the text box, and you can fill in the details. Please try it out. I hope this works for you. Ground Zero (talk) 02:55, 6 August 2018 (UTC)


Hey, @Ikan Kekek:

I was wondering if you could explain to me what Wikidata is. I keep getting notices that my articles are being given wikidata items. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 01:45, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Wikidata is the place where all of Wikimedia's data can be found. Wikidata has a website, and here's an example of a Wikidata "item", as it is called. Selfie City (talk) 02:01, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
Selfie City, thanks for explaining. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:45, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
You can also link individual listings to wikidata and have the data that is stored at wikidata filled in the appropriate fields, which is especially handy if you want to add geo coordinates (so that the listings show up on the map) Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:38, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Is it licit to use Wikivoyage to advertise a rental company?[edit]

Hi, I come for this change. Is it licit to use Wikivoyage to advertise a rental company? I couldn't find the policies on this subject. --Pedro Felipe (talk) 13:31, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

I'd emphasize that advertising on Wikivoyage is per se against the rules. Purely descriptive listings are not advertisements, however. Have a look at the links Ibaman so helpfully gave you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:19, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
Fine. Thanks for your message! --Pedro Felipe (talk) 13:47, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Buffalo/Elmwood Village's new intro lede[edit]

What do you think? Lively creative writing, or too much of a left-field approach to the subject matter? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:02, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Pinging Ground Zero as well. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:07, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
Comments moved to User talk:AndreCarrotflower#Buffalo/Elmwood Village lede.

Ibaman was blocked[edit]

I'm pretty sure this was in error. Could you remove the block if that was the case? ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:53, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Your changes to the Seiser Alm page[edit]

I'm referring to this change. I'm fine with the change you made to the Chamois link. But the other links you removed were informative. Even if one doesn't use Google translate to set the content to English, the user who follows those links can see pictures of the referenced sites and get some understanding of what they are. Whats worse is that you seem to be behaving in a rather capricious manner targetting my changes. If you look at the history of the page, you will see that I was fixing broken links introduced by a different user several versions back. There is still a broken link of the same sort (Schlernhaus) that I forgot to fix, but which you judged was ok to leave in. Why the double standard here? Marvin The Paranoid (talk) 12:05, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Or, instead of taking Ikan Kekek's enforcement of policy as a personal attack on your edits, which I am certain they're not, you could have read the policy pages he referred you to in his edit summary, read and learnt from them, and removed the remaining link that you noticed was out of place.
If you don't like the policies cited, you can try to get them changed at the relevant talk pages. But first, you should reevaluate your attitude, and accept correction when it's offered. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:44, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
Exactly. Thanks for explaining this. And Marvin, please note that existing Wikivoyage policies and guidelines are not set by the individual but were decided on by a consensus. If you want to change them, you have to persuade a new consensus to agree with you in precisely the way Thundering suggests. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:23, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

A new user[edit]

A new user who deserves our support, encouragement and guidance to ensure they don't make the sort of mistakes that other editors have made in the past. ;-) Ground Zero (talk) 13:35, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

@Ground Zero: See the Zayn Hussein section in the Travellers pub. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 14:05, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

MUST SEE[edit]

Some of the articles are quite long with a lot of useful information but difficult to find out what are the highlights of the place. Is there any guideline for a paragraph e.g. "must see" to show the essentials for quick readers? User:DocWoKav

DocWoKav: Yes, it is quite reasonable to have an intro to the "See" section, stating that if you have limited time you should see x, y and z. Alternatively, in some cases, the sights may be so prominent as to merit being mentioned in "Understand" or in the lede. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:01, 3 September 2018 (UTC)


my return (again) after these rather long breaks, I have formatted perhaps eccentrically, any suggestions as to a more conventional or accepted form? any thoughts on that would be appreciated. Ta JarrahTree (talk) 08:40, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Nice to see you again. I'll have a look at some point.
Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:45, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Artist vs Artiste[edit]

My understanding is that "artist" refers to someone who does any form of art, while "artiste" specifically refers to someone in the performing arts. So both terms would be applicable to both men and women. But perhaps that's a difference between British and American English. The dog2 (talk) 22:38, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Could be.
By the way, I think the stuff you added about Latin music in the U.S. needs to be edited. The rise of salsa in Spanish Harlem is important, and Tito Puente was a superstar mainstream figure. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:46, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Sure, go ahead and make the edit. You're the resident expert in music here. The dog2 (talk) 23:33, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
With some holes in my knowledge. I did make an edit. I fear it's still incomplete, and for example, it doesn't mention Ritchie Valens' hit version of La Bamba, which probably merits a mention. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:34, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Do we have a Latin music travel topic? If so, I could contribute. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 00:16, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
I just posted a comment at Talk:Jazz, which I'd ask you to look at. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:19, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
Saw the comment and adjusted accordingly. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 00:23, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Streets as listings[edit]

Context: this edit. About the first two, sure, I agree those aren't listings. I do want some clarification about whether streets are acceptable as listings. For example, I recently edited Newcastle-upon-Tyne which had a commercial street as a listing in its Buy section. The street was apparently well-known enough to have a WP article and corresponding Wikidata item, which I added.

Is there a policy on this? Streets aren't exactly listings, but it seems like a shame to forego the Wikidata functionality for those well-known streets which have them. Maybe the situation isn't directly comparable, since the reverted listing was a in different category. ARR8 (talk) 04:26, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

I see your point. Maybe a marker? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:42, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
A marker makes sense. After all, a street won't have a phone number or website. However, changing the Newcastle listing to a marker would remove the WP link, which has a useful list of retailers. Seems to me a listing is the best fit we have right now. ARR8 (talk) 05:01, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
You can include a WP link in a marker. I never use markers, so I can't tell you how, but I've seen WP fields in some markers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:10, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
Could you link one? The documentation for {{marker}} doesn't mention it, and there's nothing in the source code, so I guess it's a different template. ARR8 (talk) 05:30, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
Sadly, I don't remember where I saw it. I'll start a thread at the talk page for the marker template, if there's no such thread there already. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:45, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
I started the thread at Template talk:Marker#Where to put optional Wikipedia field. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:49, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Is this touting?[edit]

In your experience, what do you think? The user has linked to a Wikidata entry of their accommodation establishment from their userpage, and added their business' website to the Wikivoyagers by location page. My feeling is it's very close to touting, though not sure if it actually crosses the line.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:09, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

I'd allow it, but I'd like to know User:AndreCarrotflower's opinion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:22, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
I'm currently travelling, so I've not had much time to check Wikivoyage, nor have I seen the specific edits cited. Judging by how it's been described by you two, though, I'd be comfortable classifying this as touting (especially the edit to Wikivoyage:Wikivoyagers by location) and reverting on that basis. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:44, 16 October 2018 (UTC)


Hi Ikan, thanks a lot for making this discussion possible. I was a looking to find a way to get in touch :)

I think this tour falls into the WV Tour category. It has a great added value, and it covers so much ground, with well-researched content (about culture, politics, economics, sociology..) so it's definitely something that travelers would have never been able to understand by their own. It's even content most locals don't even know...To give you just one short example, for instance, in front of the Gold Museum, we don't blabla about Wikipedia, but explain the impact of Gold & Esmeralds in the conflict, a bit like "Blood-diamond" resources

And I'm afraid it couldn't be summarized in 2 links bullet- points in "See" section, because it's an experience, with the different layers are all inter-connected.

Sorry about the link to LonelyPlanet, but it was more directed to the moderators so you can see by yourself this activity is really considered as a top thing to do in Bogota by leading & selective independent actors. There are lots of public reviews (blog posts, tripadvisor reviews..) And I guess such a great wiki page which resumes the essence of Bogota should includes activities from 2018 as well :) I'll be happy to help providing more information or changing the presentation to make it fully comply with WV guidelines :)

(talk) —The preceding comment was added by Annactz (talkcontribs)

Hello and thanks. Please post your argument at the article's talk page, though. Your task isn't to convince me privately on my own user talk page but to convince a consensus at the talk page for the article. And "value-added activity" has a specific meaning on Wikivoyage, as per the "Tour listings" subsection of Wikivoyage:Listings, which you need to refer to in order to demonstrate this tour has it:
Tours can be listed on Wikivoyage as long as they constitute a value-added activity. If a traveller could fulfill the substance of the tour on their own, the tour should not be listed.
In practice this policy disallows listing most audio tours, walking tours, and guided tours since the substance of such tours can generally be fulfilled by an independent traveller, and the information provided on such tours should ideally be included in the appropriate Wikivoyage article. If you have a question about whether a tour can be listed, or feel that an exception is warranted, please use the talk page of the appropriate article to discuss your concerns.
What this means is that if the "value added" is information, you could instead summarize the information in the Wikivoyage article, if you so chose. And "value added" on Wikivoyage means that, for example, a guided tour is required by the North Korean government for tourists to enter the country, or someone is operating a tour on a river boat which a visitor would need to buy or rent their own boat, otherwise, in order to duplicate.
I'll look forward to your argument on the article's talk page.
Parenthetically, you "sign" talk pages by typing 4 tildes (~) in a row at the end of your post.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:13, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Admin bits[edit]

Hi Ikan, do you mind removing my administrator rights for me? I haven’t been very active lately and I don’t anticipate that’s going to change anytime soon. Also, when I do get a bit of free time for the project, I want to work on content creation rather than admin tasks. I made this decision before the inactivity check (just haven’t had time to communicate it), but I fully agree with sentiments expressed by Andre and ThunderingTyphoons’ today. I’m not performing the role of admin right now and don’t expect to in the immediate future, so I don’t think I should be held out as an admin. I'm not sure if I have autopatroller status though without being an admin, so maybe you could switch me from admin to autopatroller... unless people want to patrol my infrequent edits. :-) Thanks -Shaundd (talk) 06:46, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Shaundd, I'm happy to take care of this for you. Your contributions aren't that infrequent, though. You have 500 edits since June, 2017, 100 edits since April, 2018 and 50 edits since July. So as far as I'm concerned, you're pulling your weight. Are you really sure about this? If you are, just confirm. If you change your mind, we can always change your status back. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:57, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
Thanks Ikan, I'm sure about this. Most of the recent edits came in July when I had a few days off and wanted to get North Vancouver ready for DotM. Otherwise, my editing and reading the site is sporadic. Cheers, -Shaundd (talk) 05:47, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
OK, done. You are now an Autopatroller. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:50, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

User talk:AndreCarrotflower#Sex tourism[edit]

Can you have a look over this talk page discussion? I think it would be useful to have another voice chime in here just in case I'm misinterpreting policy. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:10, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Civil war and the South[edit]

While I agree with you that the idea that the Civil War was not about slavery is ludicrous, I wrote that blurb in to highlight why visitors to the South to avoid the topic so they don't offend people. Sure, most sane people know that the "states rights" specifically referred to the right of the states to preserve the institution of slavery, but my understanding is that many conservative Southern whites are uncomfortable discussing the slavery aspect. So the point of me writing that in was to say "Avoid the topic if you can as you don't know if your view could potentially offend someone." As you probably already know, what people believe does not always correspond to reality, and sometimes telling the truth can be offensive. So instance, why do the vast majority of right-wing Americans deny climate change even though we have overwhelming scientific evidence that climate change caused by human activity is really happening? The dog2 (talk) 20:00, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Sorry to chip in on Ikan's page, but frankly the goal of Wikivoyage is not to avoid causing offence under any circumstance. Avoiding any offence seems to be the personal goal of yourself (and, you know, that is your life choice), but it doesn't mean it should apply to Wikivoyage. Andrewssi2 (talk) 20:38, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
Firstly, isn't the point of a "Respect" section to inform foreigners about local sensitivities that they might not be aware of? And yes, I am aware that avoiding offence under all possible circumstances would be impossible, but I don't think my insertion is any different from how we treat the Armenian Genocide in the Turkey article, or how we treat the Rohingya genocide in the Myanmar article. In those cases, there is a sharp difference between reality and what the masses believe, and we do tell people to avoid these topics as the average Turk or Burmese will be offended if you bring up reality in either of those situations. The dog2 (talk) 22:14, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
I might offend people by my views that the earth is not flat, that Neil Armstrong really went to the moon, the earth is 4.5 billion years old and that vaccines do not cause autism. Some people will take offence at these views. That would be their choice to take offence and that is fine. We don't need to avoid that.
If a topic is sensitive in a particular geographic area then it can be mentioned. It seems however many of these observations seem are obsessed with race, and really we don't need any more of that. Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:40, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
The main thing that The dog2 needs to understand is that the United States of America article is already substantially complete. In other words, we've reached the point where there's no longer any new information that can be added that's important enough to belong in that article in particular rather than one that's below it in the breadcrumb hierarchy. The recent edits to the article by The dog2 and others are, in the best-case scenario, a wash, and in the worst-case scenario, lead to disputes like these. Inasmuch as the article should be edited at all, it should be with a view to shortening the main article by moving information that's too fine-grained into region articles or travel topic articles. Aside from that and the infrequent instances in which the information in the article becomes outdated, we really need to leave well enough alone. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:29, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
@AndreCarrotflower:This post was about my edit to the article about the South, and not about the one I made to the main article. The dog2 (talk) 23:32, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
My mistake, but my comments above are still germane to the edits you've been making at United States of America over the past few days. As for this particular issue, it also bears mentioning that we've been down this road with you numerous times before in regards to inserting information about race, politics, and other such contentious issues into articles. It was annoying enough for Andrewssi2 that he took an extended Wikibreak due to his frustration with your edits that he's only recently emerged from, and he is far from the only one who has had it up to here with trying to explain to you that such edits are not wanted, in the United States of America article or anywhere else on the site. If you can't get that through your head, maybe a topic ban, as suggested before, might unfortunately be necessary. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:39, 27 October 2018 (UTC)


This text is already in South (United States of America)#Respect, and was there before you added the edit that I considered unnecessary:

The Civil War – sometimes called "The War Between the States" or even tongue-in-cheek "The War of Yankee Aggression" in the South – is still very much present in the public consciousness. Confederate monuments abound, and to a lesser extent so do Confederate flags. If you want to talk about the issue, tread with caution, and don't assume someone feels a certain way about the Civil War just because they're from the South.

Just as I believe that the coverage of Donald Trump was sufficient in Presidents of the United States before we got into a long discussion about the stuff you wanted to add, I believe the coverage of the Civil War and Confederate monuments and symbols is sufficient in South (United States of America). When you want to debate details like this, please stop pretending that the choice is between nothing and something. My observation is that, in the ostensible guise of wanting travelers to avoid controversy, you seem to have an impulsion to cause it on this site. You're a very good editor, but please curb this tendency, and when you feel very strongly that something additional needs to be added, focus on explaining why the preexisting text was insufficient for the needs of travelers. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:57, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

More than that, I personally think it's important to state that there's not going to be an unlimited number of opportunities for you to heed our warnings about not inserting controversial information. Ikan, Andrewssi2 - can we agree that this is the last warning before a topic ban goes into effect? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:06, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
I like The dog2, but I have to agree with you, because we're wasting way too much time on these debates. I think things would go differently, The dog2, if you would give on an article's talk page a clear reason why you think something needs to be added to an article on a controversial subject and don't just go ahead, add it, and then use a style of argumentation that's in very questionable faith, as I touched on above. But at this point, I think you've probably annoyed too many people with these kinds of controversies and should simply steer clear of them, period, and concentrate on content creation and formatting, not controversies of any kind. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:15, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
Here's what I think: politics (Trump vs. whoever, is Elizabeth Warren a Native American, and whatever else is being debated about right now) is bad enough in the world outside of Wikivoyage. Wikivoyage debates are difficult enough as they are. Let's not make it worse by combining the two, because the only thing that happens when we bring politics to Wikivoyage is long, annoying debates that never lead to anything positive. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:30, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
We're pretty much in agreement. I did argue that we shouldn't ignore Trump completely in the USA article, but I was happy that we were able to come to an agreement on a form of words and perfectly content to leave it at that. I don't think it's viable to completely ignore politics in a travel guide that seeks to inform, but we can and should minimize it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:00, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I agree that we can't pretend that politics doesn't exist. But at the same time I feel like all of The dog2's edits (currently) seem to be over controversial issues — eg. slavery, politics, etc. — and while he may well know what he's writing, that doesn't mean it fits on this wiki. Wikipedia is a good place where you can discuss these kind of issues — they have enough contributors that it doesn't matter if a debate makes them decide they're leaving the site or whatever. But we still need every contributor we can get.
There are tons of things anyone can do on Wikivoyage — from adding listings to cotms based on research to contributions to articles about places you know, travel topics, itineraries, etc. Contributing to those is much appreciated. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 02:47, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
Yes, agreed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:47, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
I am someone who happens to have an interest in history, and unfortunately, some points about history can be contentious even if you stick to things that are strictly factual and avoid conspiracy theories. But if the community feels that these topics are too controversial, I will avoid them. The dog2 (talk) 04:13, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
Good. And the problem is not that you're interested in history; I am, too. If you'd like to focus on previous periods of history that are travel-relevant and less likely to provoke a long argument, I think everyone will be fine with that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:20, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
It is not that the topics are controversial. It is that they don't belong here on a travel site. I really don't get why you feel you must add them here and not somewhere such as Andrewssi2 (talk) 04:42, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────At this point, I'm no longer proposing to add anything to the site, but what I want to say is that in general, I think it's important for people to know the historical and cultural context behind why something is offensive, instead of just being told that it is offensive. As an example, as someone raised in a Buddhist family in Asia, to me, Swastikas are just Buddhist religious symbols, and do not have anything to with anti-Semitism or any other forms of bigotry. In fact, I still have some items with Buddhist Swastikas on them in my possession. But because I understand the historical context, specifically how the Nazis used it as their symbol when they murdered millions of Jewish people, even though I am not happy about that fact that the Nazis appropriated what was originally a peaceful symbol and turned it into a symbol of hate, out of respect for the Jewish community, I do not display them in public when I'm in the U.S. I re-iterate that I am not proposing any changes at this point, but that's just my two cents on things. The dog2 (talk) 05:20, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Nobody disagrees with you in principle. Sure, it's nice to know exactly why something is offensive in a foreign culture. The problem is that the reasons for why things are offensive, in many of the cases you've chosen to write about, are not clear-cut. Instead of acknowledging that an issue may not be simple and it's best to leave things alone, you choose to explain the issue the way you prefer, and you feel that you're justified in doing so because you're writing about truth/reality and others are deluded. Look at what you wrote when you started this conversation:
"the idea that the Civil War was not about slavery is ludicrous ... most sane people know that the "states rights" specifically referred to ... slavery ... many conservative Southern whites are uncomfortable discussing [it]"
That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. But if you compare it to the example you just brought up, it's like you said this:
"the idea that Swastikas are anything but religious symbols is ludicrous ... most sane Gentiles know that the Swastika specifically refers to Buddhism, but many Jews are uncomfortable with it."
Can you really not see the problem here? And, yes, the former is really just as offensive as the latter to some people. If you really can't extend charity to those you disagree with, and if it helps you to think of them as insane, ludicrous, and motivated by truth-denialism, fine, but realize that this is a high-traffic website, and plenty of insane, ludicrous, truth-denying people will read anything you write.
I very much wanted to leave this alone, but I really can't understand how you have your own cultural understanding about Swastikas, a shape which perhaps ludicrously I am offended by, but you can write about them in a neutral way and not parallels in other cultures. Your opinions do show in your writing, and it's uncomfortable. That, plus the fact that these issues are being debated right now, your tendency to divide people up into homogeneous racial groups, and the simple fact that this is a non-partisan website and, either way, these explanations aren't necessary, are why I personally don't like seeing this kind of content added. ARR8 (talk) 06:23, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
In general I agree. For example, I don't think the Civil War was entirely to do with slavery. It was to do with a combination of things, similar to how the French Revolution got started and many other events in history. Now, on Wikipedia, I think examining closely all the reasons for why something happened in history is fine, but on Wikivoyage I'm not so sure. Maybe only in a few cases a very long time ago.
I don't think The dog2 has done anything bad, though, and I think the user's intentions are good. So I don't think we should attack them too much for everything they say. I don't think The dog2 ever said, or intended to say that "the idea that Swastikas are anything but religious symbols is ludicrous"; he's simply saying that Swastikas were not, until more recent times, a symbol of hate.
As things currently stand, by no means do I think we should ban The Dog2 or even discourage the user from editing. They are not purposely trying to harm the site. I think the issue is dealt with, and hopefully now we can move on. But I can understand if people still have concerns and want to bring them up; I'm not trying to discourage anyone from doing that. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:05, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
We're talking about a topic ban, not a user ban. And there's a pattern of behavior here. But you're right: I'd rather not spend time convincing you. Just examine TheDog's remarks on talk pages in which long arguments ensued and draw your own conclusions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:09, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
I understand that a user ban hasn't yet been mentioned, but we've gotten closer to it. But I'll take a closer look at the contributions shortly. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:18, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
I'd make a very rough guess that perhaps ½ of the user's contributions are over what would be considered "controversial" topics; in other words, half of the contributions are not, at least on the surface, problematic. However, I can see a trend of fairly minor edits to numerous articles that seem to be over minor but problematic points. I think a fairly good example of what I mean is this. A lot of people (myself included) make large contributions or start articles every so often, which I'm not seeing in The Dog2's contribution history. Nor am I seeing discussion on more casual topics by the user, or minor edits to data, etc. But I can understand that everyone has certain interests and areas they know best — I don't get too involved in discussions about technical issues, for example, because I don't know a lot of that stuff. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:33, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
Not to want to drag this on but I feel I need to explain myself before anyone starts to claim that I am anti-Semitic. In the case of the American Civil War, in the declarations of secession for every state that seceded from the Union, it was explicitly stated that one of the reasons for secession was to "preserve the peculiar institution of slavery", so it is very clear that slavery is a key factor that led to the secession of those states.
As for Swastikas, all I was saying is that because of history, it is regarded as a symbol of hate in the U.S., but not in Asia. Neither China nor India have a history of widespread anti-Semitism, so that anti-Semitic connotation just isn't there. In fact, if you go to India, some people name their daughters "Swastika". So my point is that understanding the history and culture behind the symbol is key to understanding why it is a symbol of hate in the Western world, but a peaceful symbol in Asia. That's it. I hope this clears things up. The dog2 (talk) 21:32, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
I'd also like to add that, The dog2, would you be okay with having this discussion moved to your user talk page? Honestly, it belongs there more than it would belong anywhere else. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:36, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
No-one thinks TheDog is a Jew-hater. And no point in moving this stuff to another page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:52, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Okay, sure. I simply didn't know if you wanted all this discussion on your talk page. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:54, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Secondary Sources[edit] is this website good to use as a source? Svrangerchrista (talk) 13:24, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi, I hope Ikan doesn't mind my jumping in here.
You can use any website you like as a source of information, as long as you don't copy exact or similar wording in a way that would breach copyright. We encourage lively, original writing on Wikivoyage, but we recognise that not everyone has first-hand information of every topic they write about, so it is okay to go to other websites for inspiration or to verify something, as long as you then write in your own words here. If you copied information verbatim from another source, it would most likely have to be deleted, so you'd just be wasting your own and others' time: please don't do this!
It's also important to remember that we don't use citations / references on Wikivoyage, even when we get information from elsewhere. We trust you to know what you're talking about. That doesn't mean other Wikivoyagers won't check your contributions for accuracy and adherence to policy, or that they won't correct mistakes, so be prepared for this.
Some pages you may wish to read are: Wikivoyage:Welcome, Wikipedians, Wikivoyage:Cooperating with Wikipedia, Wikivoyage:Copyleft, Wikivoyage:External links, and Wikivoyage:Manual of style.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:33, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
Thanks a lot for that response, Thundering. To clarify; We do and should cite, but only in edit summaries. Whenever you are editing an article, you will see a "Summary" box below your edit screen. You can type something like "summarized from" if that's what you did. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:19, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
Uh-oh. Where does it say that in policy? I understand that if you're copying content from another CC-licensed source, it is necessary to provide credits, but is it really the case that we're supposed to credit when merely reusing information? Because if so, I haven't been.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:09, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure where it's stated, but to me, it's obviously a good policy. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:11, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
I can see how that's a helpful policy but to me the best way would be to make a generic citation and what day you accessed the website you took from and what the website is, then put all of the "sources" in a section at the bottom of the page. Then when using the "Summary" feature, all you would need to include is the website (most likely). I think providing something like that would address the sincerity and plausibility of the information provided by editors of this site. Svrangerchrista (talk) 05:48, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
Maybe, but we don't do that, as a matter of style. The citations here are in the edits, edit summaries, and sometimes the talk pages. If you'd like to argue for a big policy change like the one you're suggesting, do so at Wikivoyage talk:External links, but before you do, note that it is longstanding Wikivoyage policy that there are no "External links" sections of any name in any article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:09, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Khoisan Culture vfd discussion[edit]

If you didn't know yet, I'm now an admin. I've deleted the Khoisan culture article per consensus and the fact that it had been up there for more than 14 days. What should I do with Talk:Khoisan culture, though? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:06, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes I did know. Congratulations, and thank you for being willing to take on this duty. Talk pages are never deleted unless they're spam or vandalism, so leave it alone. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:17, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Okay, that's what ThunderingTyphoons! said too and I'm fine with that. Just seems odd to have a discussion page without an ordinary page for it. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:22, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
It gives a record of why it was deleted, or should - the Vfd thread should be moved there, if it wasn't already. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:27, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Oh, because in policy it only said you had to do that for kept nominations, at least as far as I saw. I'm okay with doing it, just that I didn't because I didn't see it in policy. Maybe I missed something, though. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:32, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
I could be wrong. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:33, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Just wanting to check[edit]

Not a serious issue, so I'm not bringing to WV:Vandalism in progress. But checking, do you think a 2-hour block for this is appropriate? The original link did not work, but I think "Dewatabalinanny" has been an issue before and has no connection to the listing. You can check the link and it's daycare or something. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:48, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

@SelfieCity: Best-case scenario, it's a garden-variety spambot. Worst-case, it's a competitor who is trying to drive traffic away from SOS by misdirecting people searching for their URL. This kind of thing happens very frequently on Indonesia-related articles for some reason. Either way, it actually is a serious issue, and merits a block for a lot longer than 2 hours. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:06, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
If Dewatabalinanny has been an issue in the past, I would also go ahead and add it to the spam blacklist. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:07, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
I've added it to the blacklist. How long would you recommend for the block? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 04:48, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
I realized that both of you are probably asleep now. I extended the block to 1 day around the date and time of this comment UTC. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 05:11, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Also, letting you that the {{ping}} did not work. Others have said it only works if you write it with the first edit to the comment. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 05:15, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
I wasn't asleep; I had a dress rehearsal and a concert tonight and just came back after having a post-concert dinner with my girlfriend, who also performed. I think a 1-day block is fine, though 3 days would also be justified, as removing competitors' listings or information is intolerable and much worse than mere touting on a page or two. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:23, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
It wasn't a competitor. They were changing an external link from emergency services to their daycare services website. Of course, just as bad. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 14:54, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, that could result in a death. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:37, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @AndreCarrotflower: I was in my watchlist just now and I found this. I'll go ahead and extend the block (to 1 month) for the IP address, per what Ikan Kekek said to the user there. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:22, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

I've also created a 1-month block on the account Dewatabalinanny, to match the block on the IP address. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:32, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Long block, but probably appropriate, given that they're also block evading. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:09, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Technically should be three months for both, as that's the third offense per Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits#Escalating user blocks (the original touty edit by the IP address was #1, creating a new account to evade the user block was #2, and the second touty edit with the new account was #3). -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 06:29, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for this information, but minor correction: the account was used first, I believe, and then they used the IP address more recently. But you've got the general picture. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:37, 16 November 2018 (UTC)


On a site where we all trying to accomplish what is best for Wikivoyage, I think situations like this one require someone to explain a lot. That user's talk page is not the right place for it. So I'm going to explain some things here.

  • I want what's best for Wikivoyage. If people on Wikivoyage want something, I am willing to go along with it. I've made that clear before, and on that discussion thread.
  • Is this not enough to show I'm willing to go along with consensus?
  • I'm absolutely ready to step back from that discussion if necessary, which I said on the discussion itself.
  • The issue has little to do with my actions so far as administrator, let alone "behavior".
  • I have no intention to undercut anyone else, including you. If I did, would I be explaining all of this to you here, so you could understand why I take this view about the situation?
  • I don't think it's right to treat anyone, even a banned user, cruelly. I hope you understand what I mean.
  • If something is really right, I intend to stand up for it, no matter what the consequences. In this case, indefinite banning is not wrong, so I am willing to go along with it.

Thank you for reading this. I hope you understand my situation and my view on this.

All the best

--Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:32, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

I said my piece. You were calling something into question that is not a close case and was already decided. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:43, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Question on RFCs[edit]

Hi Ikan, so I just asked AndreCarrotflower a question on consensus-making over at his talk page. I asked him because he'd chided me on the subject before, but I just remembered we also talked along these lines over at Talk:Bangladesh. Could you take a look over there and tell me what you think? Thanks, ARR8 (talk) 04:33, 19 November 2018 (UTC)


I looked it up on Google Maps, and I can't even find this place on there, let alone a lot to do there. Therefore, I agree that a merge should be done, and I have added a merge template accordingly.

I added Gorgan as the first template parameter. Do you agree that this is the best place? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:13, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Either that or the overall Caspian Iran region, I'm not sure which. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:18, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
I found an article (I can't find it now) about the village's technology, and I found a picture of a view from the road just now. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:32, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
Well, actually, the user has expanded the article and it's looking better now. They removed the merge template, too. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:46, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Thai cuisine[edit]

I have moved some information from Thailand#Eat to create the Thai cuisine article. Thinking that you'll be interested, so letting you know. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:59, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:59, 23 November 2018 (UTC)


If you want me to say this some other way, feel free to tell me. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:27, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

User:SelfieCity, please just ignore him.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:32, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
Probably worth banning that sock here and letting the WP admins know that a sock of a banned WP user is active, through whatever the proper channels are. ARR8 (talk) 21:36, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
Just ignore and block. I was away all day. Happy Thanksgiving. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:58, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
I'm not an admin on Wikipedia; anyway, I was on a "Wikibreak" over the rest of the Thanksgiving period and into this week; I just came back. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 14:40, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
I thought you meant what to do here, not on Wikipedia. Anyway, welcome back. I hope you enjoyed Thanksgiving. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:34, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:29, 29 November 2018 (UTC)


The information I have added is still relevant and you have to take that into account before going off on a whim and reverting edits. I say we leave it to actual admins. --TerrierChicken (talk) 01:45, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

No, my friend, the whim is yours. Discuss your proposed changes on the talk pages for each continent or multi-country region article and seek a consensus. I revert your edits not to decide on the ultimate shape of the articles but because their current shapes are the product of a long process of collective work that can be changed in major ways only through the development of a new consensus. You may be able to be the engine of such a new consensus, but only if you have a collaborative attitude. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:49, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
I don't see how labelling the Middle East as West Asia is a 'whim'. It is a well-known fact and the two terms refer to the same geographical location.--TerrierChicken (talk) 01:52, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
I agree but don't think it's necessary, especially as a parenthesis for the Wikivoyage region name. But again, the place to discuss this effectively is the talk pages of the articles in question, which in this case would be Talk:Middle East and/or Talk:Asia. Collective action means not a bilateral agreement between you and me but a wider agreement. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:54, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
About "leaving it to actual admins", Ikan Kekek is a bureaucrat, giving him all the abilities of admins and then some, and if you think I'm making this up, I'm an admin myself. I'd advise that you listen to him. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:56, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
Neither admins nor bureaucrats have precedence in determining a consensus on Wikivoyage. However, any new user making edits to really substantially change higher-level articles (continent, multi-country region, thoroughly worked-through country articles like United States of America) can expect their work to be initially mostly or wholly reverted, with a discussion requested before any reinstatement. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:00, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
I guess I should state on my user page that I'm a bureaucrat and admin, though I don't like to call too much attention to it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:01, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
Just thought it ought to be mentioned, and I understand your reasoning.
I've taken a look at some maps of parts of Asia and the biggest problem I see with calling the Middle East "Western Asia" is that there are a few, although not many, regions that could also be considered "Western Asia". Western Kazakhstan could definitely be considered that category, along with perhaps some of Russia near the Ural Mountains. The Middle East's position in the southwest makes it hard for me to support the name "Western Asia". But I'm not opposed to it particularly — if I'd seen TerrierChicken's edit, I probably would have left it alone for someone with more experience/knowledge of the region to handle, because I wouldn't see myself as being on confident ground. The initial comment on this thread, however, gave a somewhat different impression than I would have expected a (new, I assume) user would give when talking on your own talk page.
To clarify, now the addition was reverted, I don't support support adding it back in. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 02:10, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
Yet my edit was reverted... Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:14, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── DaGizza mentioned on the user bans page that the user in question called you a vandal on the w:WP:Administrator intervention against vandalism page; see revision. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:22, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

I didn't even know that page existed. I don't think this is a new user. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:28, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Abuse filter[edit]

Check the abuse log for abuse filter 38. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 04:16, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

I had already looked at it. Not sure what to make of it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:41, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
I mean, I'm glad knowledgeable people are taking care of this, but that's about it from my perspective. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:44, 11 December 2018 (UTC)