User talk:The dog2

Hello Superdog! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

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Thanks for your edits to Singapore! I don't think there's any restaurant in Singapore where you can get a bill of S$1000 for two without heavily hitting the wine list though... (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:45, 9 February 2008 (EST)

Archived discussions User talk:The dog2/Archive 2008-2021

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18:14, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Indigenous Australian civilization

When I was learning indigenous culture, I was taught that Aboriginal Australian civilization oldest surviving civilization in the world. Unfortunately, this fact doesn't seem very well known, and needs some better recognition. Just some other sources to back that up:

• [1] From AllThat'sInteresting
• [2] CNN
• [3] Tourism Australia
• [4] The Guardian
• [5] Also from the Guardian

There were of course older civilizations, but they're not currently living civilizations today. I'll make that more clearer in the article. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 21:49, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

If you're talking about continually-existing civlisations, then I guess that's possible. But humans most certainly emerged in Africa before they made their way to Australia, so the earliest human societies most certainly arose in Africa. The dog2 (talk) 21:58, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

True. I reworded it to say that it's the oldest living civilization. However, according to this,

Africa's first great civilization emerged in ancient Egypt in c.3400 BC. Carthage was founded by Phoenicians in the 9th century BC.

I do find it hard to believe as that's not backed up with citations, but hopefully the reworded one makes it more clearer. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:01, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

OK, that works. And African history just happens to be one of my pet peeves because there's so much ignorance of that too. People often think that apart from Egypt and Carthage, Africa was an uncivilised place with only hunter-gatherer cultures, but that's simple not true, and sub-Saharan Africa has a very rich history too, with civilisations that built great cities and complex societies (and besides, I don't like this notion that hunter-gatherer people are uncivilised; it's just a different lifestyle in my view, and there's no reason to view them as inferior to urbanised peoples). The dog2 (talk) 22:26, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Even places like Botswana or Central Africa also had rich history too but it's a sad pity that they also get ignored just like the sub-Saharan Africa or many other places in the world.

Papua New Guinea is another example, which is not far from both Asia and Australia. Unfortunately, the stereotype is that the country has many "uncivilized tribes" living in the highlands far from urbanised places when each of their cultures is quite unique. I'm sure that these these photos are not what most people think of PNG and will probably shock most. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:36, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Mexican food in Adelaide

I was going to add a "Mexican" section in Australian cuisine but wanted to check how common is Mexican food in Adelaide as I never really went looking for them when I was last in Adelaide. At least in my area, Mexican restaurants are nearly everywhere, but it's mostly Mexican-American cuisine as opposed to the traditional Mexican style you'd get in Mexico and I had a similar experience when I last went to Melbourne and Brisbane, but how common is it in Adelaide? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:20, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I've been to one Mexican restaurant in North Adelaide, but it's also more Mexican-American than authentic Mexican. I also remember that the food court at Marion Shopping Centre had a "Mexican" place along the lines of Taco Bell, but it was a local Australian chain. The dog2 (talk) 05:23, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

And in Adelaide, is it common to find Mexican chains like Taco Bell, Guzman y Gomez or Mad Mex? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:25, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't recall seeing any of them when I was in Adelaide. Vaticidalprophet has been in Adelaide more recently than I have, so he might be a better person to ask. But suffice to say, Mexican food was quite rare in Adelaide, and some Americans living in Adelaide told me that what they missed most about home was the Mexican food. The dog2 (talk) 05:31, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I guess they have yet to come to Adelaide yet. The Mexican food here in Sydney has only really popped up within the last seven or eight years, so it's pretty new here and (not exaggerated) you're probably ten times more likely to find Thai food. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:38, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, the Mexican food presence in Adelaide is pretty negligible. Even in much bigger cities it's very, very low compared to what someone coming from anywhere in the Americas would expect. When I last visited there are GyGs now, but still very few. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 05:56, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I think Travellers' Pub#Uyghur independence was clear enough

Hi there. Did you forget this was already discussed in the Pub? I agree with what the others wrote at the time, that Uyghur independence and Xinjiang are utterly tangential topics during a visit by (mostly) English-speaking tourists to Turkey. There are lots of things that are true, that we nonetheless don't need to write about in a travel guide. But you know this already :-) ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:33, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

To add, the Turkish form of Xinjiang, Sincan, is in almost as common use as Doğu Türkistan, even by those with nationalist/pan-Turkist worldviews (who presumably are the most pro-Uyghur of a population already by and large pro-Uyghur). Vidimian (talk) 20:33, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

chips/fries

I think everyone here also now shortens it to "chips" as well, but "fries" is becoming increasingly common, even outside fast-food chains, and have recently seen two local cafes use "fries". Not sure whether it varies state-to-state, but perhaps we could write a longer explanation in Australian cuisine. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:50, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, it's been a number of years since I left Australia, so things might have changed since then. But back then, in casual conversation, everyone said "chips", and I never heard the word "fries" outside American fast food chains. In the small local takeaways selling roast chicken, it was always "chicken and chips". They may say they are going to buy some "fries" from McDonald's (or Maccas, if you'd like), but that's it. The dog2 (talk) 22:55, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

That's actually a pretty new trend, and I only noticed that in early December – a little less than two months ago. There's a increasing trend to use the North American version, at least in NSW but I don't know what it's like elsewhere. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:29, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Uyghur independence

Swept in from the pub

This edit and this edit make questionable assertions about support for the Uyghur independence movement in Turkey and Kazakhstan. Even if the statements are true, do we really want to get to this level of granularity in telling readers what to talk about and what not to talk about? In my decades of travelling, including to China and Turkey (twice), the question of Uyghur independence has never come up in conversation. I would delete these comments, but I would like to hear other views on the question.Ground Zero (talk) 18:10, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Clear violation of tcf. We have a general issue with country articles becoming bloated with text not useful for the average traveller. /Yvwv (talk) 18:16, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

I've reverted the additions. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:18, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Before the issue started to gain Western support, Turkey and Kazakhstan had already been providing refuge to many Uyghur independence activists who fled China. Of course, many fled to Western countries too (I dined at an Uyghur restaurant run by Uyghur independence activists in Australia, for instance), but Turkey and Kazakhstan have the largest concentration of Uyghur independence activists in non-Western countries, and there is most certainly a degree of kinship that the Turks and Kazakhs feel with the Uyghurs since they are all Turkic peoples. Unfortunately, I don't have Kazakh colleagues here, but nearly all the Turkish colleagues I have interacted with have expressed support for the Uyghur independence movement. The dog2 (talk) 20:20, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't doubt what you are saying, but I think few travellers would start talking about how wonderful the Chinese Uyghur policy is! In what scenario is this warning useful? We are anyway advised to tread lightly when discussing politics abroad. –LPfi (talk) 21:06, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Feelings in Ukraine

I reverted your edit on Ukraine. Any Finnish journalist who has commented on the polarization tell that the attack united the country: no one has any sympathy for Russia any more, and many Russian speaking Ukrainians have started to speak Ukrainian instead of Russian to demonstrate that point. The ethnic Russians are even more chocked than ethnic Ukrainians: how does bombing us help us? From where did you get the impression you wrote in the article? –LPfi (talk) 19:10, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Are you talking about ethnic Ukrainians who speak Russian, or actual ethnic Russians? What I've heard from YouTubers based in the Donbass (though those guys are naturally pro-Russia) is that the people there see Putin as a liberator from Ukrainian oppression. And the media can easily choose to interview and highlight the ethnic Russians who oppose Putin, since those people certainly exist. The dog2 (talk) 19:15, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

(Sorry for having had this discussion split up between my talk page and yours.)

I speak about actual ethnic Russians who live in Kharkiv or its surroundings (not those in Donetsk). And I don't listen to Fox news. Of course most Western media, including that of Finland, is biased in much of its reporting, because they get much of their international stuff from AP and the like, and are influenced by the general feelings in the west, including the discussion in quality media, likewise biased for similar reasons. But for Russia and Ukraine, we do have journalists who have lived in and travelled around the area for years. It's their reports we read and listen to now, in addition to the probably more biased interviews with Ukrainian (and Russian) expatriates and refugees, and domestic experts. Most of them have started their correspondent carrier in Russia, so there is no reason they would avoid getting Russian acquaintances, or not calling them to hear about their current sentiments.

I would be very reluctant to believe a word from media or youtubers from Russia or areas under Russian control elsewhere, unless I know them from before the invasion.

–LPfi (talk) 20:03, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Finland and NATO

For the second time you added a note that Finland has announced it will join NATO (former one in European history a week ago, I think, now in Finland). In the latest news here in Finland they say the decision is scheduled to be made informally during the weekend and formally on Monday. "Finland" cannot announce anything before formal decisions. Where have you got your information? –LPfi (talk) 17:21, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

@LPfi: here. The Finnish government has made the official announcement. Unless perhaps something got lost in translation (unfortunately, I don't understand Finnish so I can't read the original). The dog2 (talk) 17:23, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

OK. Here it was said that the President and the Prime Minister announced their personal opinion on Tuesday today. There was no decision yet, and "Finland" didn't say anything. It is unlikely that the Government (who makes the decision together with the President) won't follow their recommendation – most parties have announced they share that opinion – but it hasn't happened yet. –LPfi (talk) 17:29, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

The Finnish original seems to say "Now that the time for decision is close [...] our opinion [...] Finland must [...]". So very strong words, but not a decision, and their joint statement, not Finland's. The statement was cited at the top of the government's site, and the linked page is available in three languages, here a link to the English version. –LPfi (talk) 21:19, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

The dog2: this is the latest example in your long history of posting information about politics and history that is incorrect. These errors make work for other editors, whose time is better spent adding travel content. It also causes us to question the accuracy of everything you add. I believe that you should just stop making changes to text about politics and history. I also think that there are other editors who agree with me. I would prefer not to make a big deal of this. If necessary, I will escalate this to a discussion in the Pub, but I would order if you would just cease making such edits. Ground Zero (talk) 19:20, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Template:LunarNewYeardates

Could you provide me a reliable source to determine the lì chūn information for future years? I'd like to automate hte update of the content as done for Ramadan. Thanks, --Andyrom75 (talk) 16:36, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Here's one from the Hong Kong government. I'll see if I can find others. Unfortunately, it is only in Chinese. Look for the row with the Chinese characters 立春. The second column gives the day, and the third column gives the time. The dog2 (talk) 17:13, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

High schools

You wrote "... equivalent of high schools in the West". Is that equivalent to high schools in the USA? The West doesn't have a common school system. –LPfi (talk) 16:19, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, sort of. In Singapore primary school is 6 years, which is followed by 4 years of secondary school, and 2 years of junior college. So while it's not exactly the same, it is analogous to American senior high school. The dog2 (talk) 16:21, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't know the US system well, but I suppose the age is what counts. Edited accordingly. –LPfi (talk) 16:49, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

"General American" accent of Donald Trump

I guess you don't have a keen ear for New York accents. His New York accent is very clear, even if it's not quite as intense as Bernie's Brooklyn accent, but then Trump comes from Queens, and there are historically different accents in different boroughs. Anyway, please forgive me, but I'm going to edit your edit in the New York City article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:47, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

By the way, I won't quote from it because of the WPost's paywall, but I see this much as a search result: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/09/whats-up-with-donald-trumps-voice/ Donald Trump's accent, explained - The Washington Post Feb 9, 2016 "Trump's working-class New York accent may also help the billionaire appear a bit more relatable on the stump." Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:55, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

A somewhat different take at https://pix11.com/news/local-news/who-has-the-better-new-york-accent-sanders-or-trump/:

Trump’s accent, according to the professor, reflects his different socioeconomic background and upbringing from Sanders more than the fact that Sanders is from Brooklyn and Trump from Queens.

“Donald Trump was born into a rich family, went to school with other rich kids,” Professor Newman said, “but his accent is still very much New York.”

So take your pick, but don't argue that he has a "General American" accent, whatever you mean by that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:57, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: OK. I remembered watching a video on YouTube where they said you can tell from the accents that Donald Trump came from a rich family, and Bernie Sanders came from a working class family. What I certainly noticed is that Trump's accent is rhotic (like most other American accents), while Bernie's accent is non-rhotic (like a typical New York accent). I think this is the one. Also, there was another video saying that there is no specific Bronx or Brooklyn accent, and really, accents differed based on ethnicity. So an Italian New Yorker, an Irish New Yorker and Jewish New Yorker for instance would have somewhat different accents, due to the influences from their respective ancestral languages. Have a look at this. I think in the Vice video, they also mentioned that Bernie Sanders' accent is indicative of his Jewish ethnic background.

By the way, I recommend watching the whole series of the Wired video if you are interested in the linguistics of American English. I learnt from those videos that the accents of Latinos differ geographically depending on which country the Latin America immigrants in that region came from, so a New York Latino accent will have a more Puerto Rican and Dominican twang, a Miami Latino accent will have a more Cuban twang, and a Southern California Latino accent will have a more Mexican twang. The dog2 (talk) 17:38, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Brooklyn Italian-Americans and Jews can really sound the same, and far from all New York accents are non-rhotic. Mine is rhotic. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:10, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

OK, now there's a specific New York dialect of AAVE and Spanglish? Is it as different from Upstate New York dialects as the New York City accent(s) is (are)? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:33, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: You should watch the Wired video I posted. They got a black linguist and a Latina linguist to go through the dialectal differences in AAVE and Latino English between different parts of the country. They are experts who can explain it better than I can. The dog2 (talk) 00:59, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Revert

Fair enough, I see what you're getting at now. We could make it more specifically about the other country than the reader's home country, though. I'll have a go, tell me what you think.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:17, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Sure. As an example, if you talk to Chinese people living in the U.S., you'll find that most of them absolutely loathe the Chinese government, especially since Xi Jinping took office. But if you travel to China and think the people living there will have the same views, you might be in for a rude shock because he actually enjoys strong support domestically, and this has been corroborated by studies done by the Harvard Kennedy School and Pew Research (and I presume that such reputable institutions would have already taken the lack of political freedoms in China into account when they publish their studies). My own experience too is that the Chinese nationals living in Singapore (where they have the freedom to speak out against the Chinese government and read Western news sources) tend to be more supportive of the Chinese government compared to those living in the U.S. The dog2 (talk) 15:12, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, makes sense. I have two new colleagues from HK.

I replaced your paragraph with mostly different words to emphasise the visitor's experience. It's a little awkwardly-worded though.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:56, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

It actually looks pretty good to me. The dog2 (talk) 16:07, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Special:Diff/4535450

Interesting. Didn't know that German restaurants also serve pork (the only German restaurant I've been to was in California), but I guess that's something new I've learned. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 02:15, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

@SHB2000: Germans are known for their crispy skin roast pork, and there are quite a number of restaurants in South Australia that do pretty decent ones. Even if they're not specifically German restaurants, South Australia has a lot of German heritage, especially in the Barossa Valley, so even some non specifically German restaurants serve very good crispy skin roast pork. And here in Chicago, one of the German restaurants makes a very good crispy skin pork knuckle on Saturdays only. Germans also make lots of pork sausages, and you can find quite a stall called Barossa Fine Foods in Adelaide Central Market that sells pretty good ones. And if you want explore German heritage in the U.S., the Midwest is where you should go to. Not California. The dog2 (talk) 02:22, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Ooh, this has made me want to stop over at Hahndorf when I visit Adelaide later this year (and I probably will now). I was aware that SA does have a strong German heritage, but I didn't expect it to be this strong. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 02:29, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

@SHB2000: As a side point, I know Australia does not have much Spanish heritage, but if you want pork, besides German restaurants, Spanish restaurants are a good bet too. The Philippines has suckling pig because of the legacy of Spanish colonial rule. If you ever travel to Spain, you'll notice how pork-heavy their diet is. Also, in the rest of Southeast Asia, roast pork was mainly brought there by Cantonese immigrant, so in places like Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, and even Singapore, if you see crispy skin pork belly, it's likely that the stall owner is of Cantonese descent. You often find crispy skin roast pork in Vietnamese areas in Australia because many of boat people who fled Vietnam were ethnic Chinese, and most ethnic Chinese in Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon) are of Cantonese descent. The dog2 (talk) 14:29, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Happy holidays!

Happy holidays, The dog2! Hello The dog2, have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! It has been a pleasure to have you as a fellow Wikivoyager this year. Wherever you are, enjoy the festive season and stay warm (if you're north of the Tropic of Cancer)! Your help in maintaining, improving and expanding Wikivoyage will always be appreciated. Greetings from Sydney, New South Wales, Australia. --SHB2000 on 12:33, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

@SHB2000: Thanks so much. Happy holidays to you too. The dog2 (talk) 04:03, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

re Special:Diff/4586725

Indeed. Parks like Pribaikalsky National Park and the Russian Far East are really impressive and are one of their kind. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 05:28, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Deletion of listings in grand old hotels

I do not think listings should be deleted without prior discussion. Notice that there is no criteria for a hotel to be 4- or 5-star. If you read the preamble it says: "Some hotels have a heritage from the golden age of steam railways and ocean liners; before the Second World War, in the 19th or early 20th centuries. These hotels were where the rich and the famous of the day would stay. They have an appeal all their own: old fashioned fittings, the lack of the latest amenities, and a certain graceful agedness. They are often in superb locations, either smack in the middle of cities – very often being next to a major railway station, as they were often constructed to house railway travelers – or close to major outdoor attractions. For this article, we also include numerous mid-20th century hotels that are iconic and historically significant". Colonial hotels in Africa, especially a 3 star hotel in Senegal would definitively qualify. Jonte-- (talk) 11:08, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

The question is, is it still grand? If it's run down and dirty these days, then it's not grand, is it? The dog2 (talk) 17:09, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Depending. If the interiors are destroyed, then probably not, but shouldn't we discuss them on the talk page? Especially just mentioning stars in the edit summary sets a bad precedent: somebody else might might remove a hotel because of it not having more than three stars, although it might still be grand. What star rating are we using? Aren't television and minibar required for 4 star in some systems? What 19th century hotels had these? Are they required for our article? –LPfi (talk) 14:58, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Sure, I'm happy to discuss them on the talk page. I was doing Google searches and these ones didn't look that grand anymore. But if anyone has been there and shows that it's still grand, then sure, we can put it back. The dog2 (talk) 16:12, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Pork is not banned in Israel

This is simply false:

"Pork is rare or in some countries banned due to Islamic or Jewish customs."

There isn't a single country in the world where pork is banned due to Jewish Law or customs. Can you please stop edit warring in the Middle East article? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:57, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

It says "rare or in some countries banned". I presume pork will be rare in Israel even if it may be legal since pork is taboo in Judaism, but if that's not true, correct me. The dog2 (talk) 13:04, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

If I may say so, you presume too much, you care too much about arcane minutiae totally outside ttcf and WV:Tone, you seem to need to exaust all the subject matter's angles and nooks and cronies in print on every article, especially the top ones in the hierarchy. Sorry to sound harsh. But sometimes it gets tiresome to copyedit all the stuff you're trying to add. Ibaman (talk) 13:33, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

The sentence can be read "Pork is rare, or in some countries banned due to Islamic or Jewish customs." The lack of a comma does not make it clear that pork is not banned in Israel. So it serves the traveller and fairness best to phrase the sentence more carefully. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:14, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

OK, I've rephrased it to try to avoid the misunderstanding. Please have a look and make further edits if necessary. The dog2 (talk) 18:23, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

I think the current phrasing is OK. Thanks for working with me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:11, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Special:Diff/4652888

Does the Don River Railway count? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 21:35, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

@SHB2000: Sure. I lived in South Australia, so the ones in South Australia are the ones that I know of, but I'm sure there are some elsewhere in Australia that are worth listing. The dog2 (talk) 22:02, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I've never really seemingly paid attention to many heritage railways (except when I was in Tasmania last summer), but w:List of heritage railways in Australia has a good list of some heritage railways. There aren't many in my area, but that's because I live in an area of Sydney that's been heavily redeveloped and every other railway near me is used in some way or form. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:39, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Australia

Hello, can we talk about my contribution to the Australia article? 219.88.232.230 05:08, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Sure, but please raise it on the talk page for Australia. I just don't think your edits improved the article. For instance, there's no point in listing the visas based on price because which visa you are eligible for is really based on your nationality, and you don't really get a choice. But if you disagree, bring it up on the Australia talk page and see what other editors say. Until we have consensus, status quo bias applies. The dog2 (talk) 05:12, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I have raised it Talk:Australia#Visa219.88.232.230 05:30, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Special:Diff/4684170

Looks about right to me, but I don't know a lot about the nitty-gritty aspects of firearm regulations since I've never had the need to find them out. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 06:34, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

China: Visa policy

It appears that your page doesn't show the maximum stays for each visa-free country. Here's what I'm found on the FMPRC's Department of Consular Affairs (please click "入境居留" for information):

• San Marino (90 days)
• Kazakhstan (30 days)
• BiH (90 days)
• Mauritus (60 days)
• Armenia (90 days)

Best wishes.廣九直通車 (talk) 03:43, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

It's mentioned in a sentence below the table. But OK, since you have an official Chinese government source indicating a longer allowed period of stay, I won't revert. I just think that for visa requirements, an official Chinese government source should always be trusted over Wikipedia. The dog2 (talk) 03:54, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

I had updated the provisions. To be accurate, it's almost impossible to input all source links in the edit summary, so for the next time, perhaps more sources can be inputted in the talk page?廣九直通車 (talk) 12:51, 27 November 2023 (UTC)