Talk:Australia

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Formatting and language conventions

For articles about Australia, please use the 12-hour clock to show times, e.g. 9AM-noon and 6PM-midnight.

Please show prices in this format: $100, and not AUD 100, 100 dollars or A$100.

Please use Australian spelling.


Aussie link tax?[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Australia has a new law requiring sites like Facebook & Google to pay news organisations whenever they link to content on a news site (or whenever someone follows the link?) and to share some data about the user with the linkee. I'm more than a little hazy on details.

Here's a summary, not for those easily offended by language.

Will this affect us? How? It certainly looks like a problem for WP, who routinely cite news articles, but I cannot see that it will matter much to us. Pashley (talk) 11:58, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

AIUI that law specifically applies to only Facebook and Google, and I'm not sure that it's about the URL ("link") as much as it is about the content (headline/first sentence/image preview). Someone recommended the analysis at https://stratechery.com/2020/australias-news-media-bargaining-code-breaking-down-the-code-australias-fake-news/ to me, and it has more information than the page you linked. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:10, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
It's best to not include any links to news articles. TravelAroundOz (talk) 23:17, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
This will not have any implications for any Wikimedia projects. It is explicitly only about Facebook and Google. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 23:26, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
Even if it did apply to Wikimedia Projects, why would this affect WikiVoyage? TravelAroundOz (talk) 00:24, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
Since Pashley said "I cannot see that it will matter much to us", I think he was posting in the hope that other people could confirm his impression (or tell him that he'd missed something). He didn't claim that it would affect Wikivoyage. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:48, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
The goverment FAQ says "Digital platforms must participate in the code if the Treasurer makes a determination specifying that the code would apply to them. The Government has announced that the code would initially apply only to Facebook and Google.", so it won't apply to us. We (or Wikinews) also can't apply to receive money as we don't "operate primarily in Australia" and have annual revenue over $150,000. AlasdairW (talk) 21:58, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Phone numbers starting with 13[edit]

At Connect/Telephone​/Special numbers​ starting with 13 are mentioned as charged at a local call rate, which is not zero. So why are they often given at a "tollfree=" in a listing? --FredTC (talk) 14:26, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

The same applies for 18 as well. SHB2000 (talk) 23:24, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
Yes, but for 18 it is correct, if I understand the text at "Special numbers" well. --FredTC (talk) 04:50, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Spelling[edit]

We have our own spelling, but it's hard to explain it, it's a mix of British, American and Canadian spelling:

e.g. Colour sanitize sterilise gaol

It's complex but I don't think using the British is a good idea at all. Considering that we're shifting away from Europe and more towards Asia and North America.

Anyone else agree? SHB2000 (talk) 23:30, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

  • I've changed it to Australian spelling, per Wikivoyage:Spelling, which says you use Australian spelling in Australian articles. I don't know why it said British spelling. That makes no sense. Thanks for pointing it out. Ground Zero (talk) 01:02, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
It would've made sense 10 years ago but not now. SHB2000 (talk) 01:07, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Time in Australia[edit]

Swept in from the pub

In section Australia#Trading hours​ I see:

  • 09:00-17:00
  • 4PM
  • 6pm

Is there one way to specify time in Australia? If not what should the standard be for Wikivoyage articles? Something like "in one article only one standard". Or is it "do what ever you like", as is done now in the mentioned Australia article section? --FredTC (talk) 10:49, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm planning to create a new article for Australia's time. Not only is the time zones confusing but the way we write it is also confusing.
So for
  • 09:00-17:00 - North Queensland
  • 4PM - Victoria
  • 6pm - Everywhere else but NSW, S Qld and SA
  • 06:00pm - NSW, SA and South Queensland
Tbh, we're just a weird country. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:04, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
Thank you for your quick response. In Wikivoyage:Time and date formats it says Use upper case "AM" and "PM". In the case of Australia, as a traveler, I would expect to see the formatting in the "Time" section, not in a separate article. I think it could be added as a new column in the table that is there already. That column could have this information like:
  • 24-hours notation
  • AM/PM notation
  • AM/PM, locally often written as am/pm
  • 24-hours notation in the bigger cities, AM/PM in most villages
--FredTC (talk) 13:20, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
This thing's hard for Aussie's to understand as well but thanks to my mum who's been all over the country, I sort of get this. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:19, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Phone number format[edit]

Editors are now told not to use hyphens or spaces when adding phone numbers to listings: "+61XXXXXXXX. (with no spaces)". That format is very hard to read (for taking a paper note or copying to some device), and the information about the prefix is lost (OK, seems all prefixes are 2-digit, but still, they are harder to recognise than if they were separated by spaces or hyphens). –LPfi (talk) 13:53, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree. Is there a technical reason to format them without spaces, like the dialling-from-the-article feature, or can we give non-Australian readers a break by adding in spaces? The Wikipedia article shows spaces in numbers, and say that the "Typical format" is (0x) xxxx xxxx. Ground Zero (talk) 13:59, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
The listing template (or rather a module it uses) strips spaces and hyphens from the number, so they do not affect dialling-from-the-article. You can see that by copying the tel: url to the clipboard and pasting it somewhere (or looking at the status line, if your browser shows link url:s there). –LPfi (talk) 14:12, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
Most workplaces request your number without spaces, and it's how it's generally written, even though it looks ugly. Also check out by clicking the copy button on Google Maps. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:42, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
The copy button on Google Maps does the same for numbers all over the world. What's more important to know is how real businesses format their numbers on their own website.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:52, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
Yes. You'd have to recognise that format as a traveller (and thus it has to be noted in Connect), and editors have to be able to format the number given in that way to the format we chose to use, and that format should serve the travellers as well as possible. We don't use "(02) 123 456" in our listings even if that is format you will see posted in Finland. Stupid web forms require people to type numbers without spaces, although stripping them away would be a one-liner in the form parsing software. –LPfi (talk) 14:08, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
Bit late to the party, but I very rarely see numbers without any spaces. Speaking purely subjectively, I don't like the way it looks. I think in terms of technical accessibility, it's easier to go with listings that are common domestically, especially in a country like Australia. In most cases, you simply don't have to call these listings overseas. Maybe for booking accomodation, but if you want to see how long the restaurant is open for, you're not going to call while you're still in your home country. My personal preference would be to format numbers as you see them in Australia, +61 XX XXXX XXXX. If we must keep it internationalised, then it should be +61 X XXXX XXXX. I don't have a strong preference either way, the difference is 1 digit after all, but I think that removing spaces isn't a good idea. --LivelyRatification (talk) 03:13, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
If you call using a mobile from another country, and don't include the country, it may try to call that number in your home country. So the country code is required. I agree that some spaces should be included, but I don't have a view on how it should be spaced. AlasdairW (talk) 20:09, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Australia as a continent[edit]

This article repeatedly refers to Australia as its own continent, however it is part of Oceania. Should we change this or keep it as it is? —The preceding comment was added by 82.3.185.12 (talkcontribs)

Keep as is - Australia is a continent (a landmass on its own continental shelf). Oceania is treated as a continent (a grouping of countries in a region of the world), but is not really a continent.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:58, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
This has been somewhat debatable, and the history goes back to 1788. When the British first came, it wasn't called Australia, but the bit that they claimed as terra nullius was only in the eastern bit, all called "New South Wales" after departing from Wales. Later in the 1800s, when the Europeans came to modern day WA, it was the second colony. Then other colonies split up from New South Wales like Van Diemens Land (now tassie), South Australia, Victoria and Queensland. so there were 6 colonies, and all together on that one continent: Australia. Later when the federation formed to become an independent country, it was Australia. However, it was still a continent and a country. The country refers to the mainland, 6 island territories, Tasmania and the Australian Antarctic Territory. The continent only refers to the Australian Mainland, New Guinea, Tasmania, New Cal, Norfolk Island and a few other islands. This of course does not include Cocos and Christmas Island. But this still confuses many. This does remind me when I did geography tests and there'd be questions of "Which countries do deserts exist" and some will name continents - but getting a mark because Australia can be deemed both. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 07:15, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
This is too deep in the weeds. Should we argue that Central America and Arabia are separate continents because they have their own continental plates? I don't think so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:21, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Also everyone who lives in Australia refers to it as a country. I've not really heard anyone describe it as a continent, even though it might technically qualify. Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:25, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
I was always taught that it was a continent. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:01, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
I was also taught it was one of the 7 continents. (but really, there's only three; Afraustroeurasia, The Americas and Antarctica) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 10:18, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Anyway, what we should call a continent depends on our geographical hierarchy and what serves the travellers. A continent with a single country is not good for the hierarchy, and having Australia as a country in Oceania (and calling Oceania a continent) is not too confusing – it is reasonably common also outside Wikivoyage. Wikipedia avoids calling Oceania a continent, but covers it in its article on continents. We generally don't keep to the formal definitions when the traveller is better served by some compromise. –LPfi (talk) 11:39, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
I don't see anyone calling for a change in the hierarchy, just a question about the use of the word "continent" in this article.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:42, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
[edit conflict] Oops, yes. So: Wikipedia says (citing National Geographic): "Generally identified by convention rather than any strict criteria, up to seven regions are commonly regarded as continents. Ordered from largest in area to smallest, these seven regions are: Asia, [...], and Australia. No problem calling Australia a continent, but when we talk about the country (such as in a context of immigration or money) we should call it a country – I hope that is what we are doing. –LPfi (talk) 11:45, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
There was one instance where it was used incorrectly, that I've just changed. The rest (CTRL+F "continent") look alright.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:49, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
PNG is also part of the Australian continent. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:49, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Searching for continent neither I saw any instance of the word being used where "country" would have been better. I am not even sure about ThunderingTyphoons!'s change of continent to country in "As a large continent Australia has a wide variety of climates." citing "some of the most different climates are on Australian islands in the Pacific". I think "continent" was better. When the Climate section where the sentence is found says "Temperatures in [...] some southern regions can drop below freezing in winter (and sometimes even in the summer)" I don't take that to refer the Macquarie Island. Generally, somebody going to an island far from the main parts of a country should refer to the Climate section of that island (or in this case Subantarctic Islands), not to the country article.. –LPfi (talk) 14:51, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
I don't have a huge preference over wording, except that it's not correct to say that Australia is a "large continent". Asia and America are large continents; Australia, by comparison, is a tiddler. What about "As a continent-sized country, Australia has..."?--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:03, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
I think I was locked in by the previous discussion. Country might be the best after all, but there should be a sentence or a few about the islands. "For the islands, see their respective article"? Or are we covering Christmas Island and Macquarie Island here? In that case perhaps "from Christmas Island at 10° to Macquarie Island at 55°, ...", to make clear we are in fact discussing also those. –LPfi (talk) 16:53, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @ThunderingTyphoons!: I don't like the phrase "a continent-sized country" as I don't think Russia or China (both having more land area than Australia) would ever be called that. 82.3.185.12 18:24, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Generally we should refer to it as a country, but it would not be inaccurate to say that Australia has an entire continent to itself. The dog2 (talk) 18:32, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
@The dog2: If Australia is its own continent, do countries like New Zealand and Papua New Guinea count as part of Australia? 82.3.185.12 18:35, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
They're not part of Australia. We group them as part of Oceania just for logistical reasons, even though Oceania isn't really a continent. The dog2 (talk) 18:53, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
@The dog2: I see. 82.3.185.12 19:02, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Just to say: New Guinea is not part of Australia. It's the 3rd-largest island in the world. And if someone is arguing that PNG is part of Oceania and Irian Jaya is not, that's an obviously political argument not based on anything having to do with geography - which doesn't mean we should classify them differently, because ttcf is the fundamental basis for everything we do. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:02, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek: Just so you know, the name Irian Jaya is no longer in official use in Indonesia. After the fall of Suharto, the name of the Indonesian half of the island was changed to "Papua". The dog2 (talk) 20:27, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
I forgot that, but I think the point is made. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:29, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
PNG is, the Solomon Islands is, NZ is not. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 21:28, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

24 hour clock for the following:[edit]

I propose to use 24 hour clocks for the following:

  • Airport - a high must. there's not a single use of 12 hour clock here.
  • Public Transport
  • National Parks

This is because it's all written in 24 hr time. While North Queensland and the Northern Territory use 24, it gets confusing. Cafes also use 24 hr time, and more newer restaurants are using 24, but for now, it's better to leave it as 12.

Anyone disagrees. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 01:52, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

We have a general policy of using only one time format in an article for ease of reading. In most cases, we stick with one time format per country for the same reason, with Scotland and Quebec being exceptions. There will be establishments that choose to show their hours in a different format from what is standard in the country, but does it really benefit the reader to follow their preferences, or does doing so just make Wikivoyage look inconsistent and messy? I haven't been to Australia, so I can't comment on usage there, but I think that our policy succeeds in making Wikivoyage easier to read and not so haphazard-looking. Ground Zero (talk) 02:03, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
Since our first policy is the traveller comes first, it does become tedious to do converting after some time. Unlike the US, the UK or Canada, airports are always 24 hour and never 12. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 02:10, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
There's also this:
So wouldn't it be better to use 24 hour time. Also, I've seen travellers look at the wrong section of timetables on public transport. e.g. People look at 0700 for 7PM when they're supposed to look at 1900. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 02:13, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
@SHB2000:It also says "Ask yourself which format visitors will see in timetables, on shop doors and in newspapers." It depends if 24-hour time is more common than 12-hour time in Australia. 82.3.185.12 17:18, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
Definitely disagree. Those things are not written in 24-hour time in either of the states I've lived in. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 18:40, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
Because victoria and south australia absolutely do not use 24 hr time. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 21:21, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Strange effect of an edit[edit]

After this edit, that has nothing to do with the use of the regionlist template, the regionlist with its map has disappeared. The only remaining thing is the text Template:Regionlist. What is happening here? --FredTC (talk) 10:32, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

I see the region list and a static map OK. Should there be something else? For the effect of the edit: it can affect caching, and a good version in your cache might have been exchanged for a broken one. The dynamic map and related features are sensitive to timeouts and similar problems, so can break if there is severe server load, generally or for some specific server. –LPfi (talk) 11:23, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
More info: the problem occurs only when I'm logged in withe several browsers. After Log out the page is displayed correct. After logging in again, the problem returns. --FredTC (talk) 11:25, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
Right now, after a few edits by SHB2000, the problem has gone. --FredTC (talk) 11:30, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
Logged-in users get a version that bypasses some of the caches, which should explain that behaviour. There was a good version in a cache somewhere, while in a cache closer to the source something was broken, but got updated by some of the edits (which per se had nothing to do with it). That's how I'd explain it anyway. –LPfi (talk) 11:37, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Australian phone numbers[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Hi all,

Would just like to seek clarification on Australian phone numbers. For most of my articles, I've formatted them like +61 [2 digit area code] [8 digit number], so, say, +61 03 1234 5678. I've noticed on a lot of other articles, the 0 will be removed, leaving just the single digit of the area code. This seems a bit counterintuitive to me. In almost all the businesses I see (though, granted, I have seen some that format it without the 0) the phone number starts with 03. Certainly, within Australia, if I call a number without the 0 it won't work. I get that the phone numbers are designed for international use, but given it works just as fine with the 0, should the 0 be used when formatting Australian numbers? --LivelyRatification (talk) 22:15, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

On a mobile phone, can you enter "+610312345678", and get connected? AlasdairW (talk) 22:21, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
It's not connected on my end, but I did make the number up so that's probably why. I tried calling my local KFC as a test, once without the 0 and once with. Worked with the 0 but not without. --LivelyRatification (talk) 22:25, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
The most important part of our phone number guidelines is that the numbers should be written in a way that works as such on (non-domestic) mobile phones, and as a result, when clicking on a phone number in a listing.
In most of the world, the leading zero in the area code is removed when calling from abroad or using the +... notation (there are a few exceptions). In a large country, most calls are made domestically, and thus writing out the zero makes sense, and the country code is often left out. When writing the zero together with country code, it is often in parenthesis, meaning it should be left out when using the country code. This convention makes sense locally, but it is not universally known and not what we use on Wikivoyage, and thus often confusing.
So if +31 2 1234 5678 works, then that is the format to use. It is also the format listed in Wikivoyage:Phone numbers-
LPfi (talk) 08:01, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
Yes, if I dial +610895819463 (fake phone number), it will work but it's generally preferred as +61895819463 rather than with the 0. And to User:LivelyRatification, that's the case since we're dialling the number locally and not internationally. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:15, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
So including the "0" will work for those writing the numbers, but not for those calling from overseas? I'd suppose calls from abroad would work equally, as the part after +61 should be parsed by an Australian exchange. Anyway, including the zero is confusing as it is left out in most of the world, and both Wikivoyage:Phone numbers and Australia#Dialling codes leaves it out.
The phone number format is explained in Australia#Dialling codes, as it should. Having read it, travellers can easily transform our number format to something usable on land lines (the same system is used in most of the world, so confusing for few). The section includes discussion on the "+" notation, which is valid globally and could probably be left out.
LPfi (talk) 08:26, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
Hope this table helps:
Example +61 not +61
0412345678 Works Will not work
491837573 Will not work (this will go to the local dialling area) Will not work
+61820395205 Works (sometimes won't work if +61 is not included) Works
+610733817204 Works, but not always Works

SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:37, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

I think the real question is resolved: we should use +61 x 123-456 without the leading zero of the area code.
But the table is confusing (including or not including +61 both horizontally and vertically). As I interpret it it makes little sense, are the +61/not +61 columns reversed? Are some of these numbers special (such as 04 the Australian-wide prefix)?
LPfi (talk) 09:16, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
Only use 04 if it's an Aussie phone. If not, then use +614. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 09:30, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
But what does it mean that +61820395205 works without +61, sometimes also with +61? You say "will not work" for 0412345678 means "works only with Aussie phones", which is not the obvious interpretation. You say 0412345678 works with +61 (presumably as +610412345678) while +61491837573 "will go to local dialling area", is that equivalent to 12345678 from a landline? And what is the difference between +61820395205 with and without +61, and how does +61820395205 with "not +61" differ from with "+61, with +61 not included"? I am afraid the table did not help me to figure out how the scheme works. –LPfi (talk) 14:07, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
If I may, I believe the column headers refer to whether or not the call is being placed from the +61 country code, not whether the +61 is included in the number dialed. Powers (talk) 16:45, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
Yes, as i'as too lazy to type Australian mobile and vice versa. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:54, 12 May 2021 (UTC)