User talk:LPfi

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Recreational shooting[edit]

You may find this hard to imagine or understand, but at least in the U.S., some people shoot animals just for fun, then don't eat them or sell or give away their meat. That's probably what's meant by "recreational shooting". Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:55, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: Yes, I think we have such people over here also. Shooting just for the fun of shooting might be called recreational shooting, but handling it in Animal ethics by just warning about regulation and giving a link about how to do it is absurd. On the other hand, I call shooting mink or nutria hunting, even when they are shot for being pests (in the particular environment) and not for the fur. For the observer it is hard to distinguish such hunt from shooting for the fun of it, other than that the latter usually requires easy targets.
I also feel awkward about the Recreational shooting article, which seems to imply the shooting just for fun aspect. I think hunting should be handled in a separate article. Not all hunting is done with firearms and there are lots of aspects beyond that of shooting. For me, competitive shooting and hunting are very different beasts - and neither fits the "shooting just for fun". (Firearms law should of course be handled in one place, be it separately or together with competitive shooting.)
--LPfi (talk) 10:52, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Funny, I was told that Recreational shooting redirected to Hunting. Now I see it doesn't. Well, anyway, I think I'll just respect however you decide to handle this one and stop interposing myself on this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:45, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
I started to write a stub on hunting, but doing even the start well requires more work than I want to put in it for the moment. Still, perhaps I'd better start it sooner rather than later. --LPfi (talk) 17:57, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Admin?[edit]

Hi, LPfi. You're a great contributor, you've been here since 2013 and understand policy - in short, I believe you'd do a good job as admin if you were made one. Do you have any interest in having a few more editing tools, such as the ability to roll back spam and vandalism with one click? Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:24, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Intercity buses in the Nordic Countries[edit]

It seems to me that you and User:Yvwv have some knowledge of intercity buses in the Nordic countries. Do you think this would be a better approach to the topic than the current small section in the Nordic countries article and the rail and bus travel in Sweden article? It appears to me that the Nordic countries have a bus market predating the German and French legal changes of the 2010s and are still mostly dominated by local companies. Or am I mistaken on that? Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:11, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, there has been a large market for coaches in the Nordic countries as long as I know anything about it. The railways cover only part of the countries, and also e.g. in the busy Helsinki–Tampere–Turku triangle coaches and trains have competed at least since the 70s. I have no detailed knowledge about other countries than Finland, but I suppose they are similar at least in this respect.
There have been drastic changes in the last ten or twenty years, but they are not that obvious for the passengers. Earlier the market was regulated, and the companies had the same routes as it seemed forever (but "regular" lines in the countryside got more sparse as people bought cars and moved to cities). Now regulations are much less strict, routes have to be offered to all interested parties, and companies such as Onnibus are allowed to invent routes of their own. This has of course resulted in many small companies being bought up, some companies growing, and bargain prices being found on the net for some routes. Still many coach users have seen no change, except for Onnibus, conductors having to find other jobs and immigrants now being common as drivers of city buses.
In Sweden it seems that the provinces are the ones responsible for coach lines, and still dominate the market except for the busiest regions and some niches. In Norway there seems to be a few big companies dominating the scene, but I cannot tell whether that is the whole story.
--LPfi (talk) 18:44, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
I am not sure there are enough similarities in the Nordic bus market to have a separate article for it. Rather I think we could have a paragraph in the Intercity buses in Europe and develop the sections in the country guides a bit (as many arrive by plane and car rental is expensive, I think buses are important for most travellers coming here). For the European article, I'd like to know what the market is like in e.g. Spain, the Balkan and Russia. Is the development there similar to France and Germany? --LPfi (talk) 18:51, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
I know next to nothing about the market in Spain or the Balkan, especially as it pertains to inside those regions as opposed to to/from those regions. In Germany and France intercity buses were regulated in a way that they basically only existed on a handful of routes. There used to be "rail replacement" buses on routes where the Bundesbahn had torn out the rail line, but they were often broken up a few years afterwards and by reunification no trace of them was left. There were buses to/from Berlin, mostly as a holdover from the incredibly bad rail connections during German partition, but other than that there were only slightly seedy international buses eastward mostly serving the Yugoslav diaspora. So the emergence of Flixbus really changed the picture completely. User:Yvwv argues on Talk:Nordic countries that there likely isn't a big enough overlap between the individual countries to make it its own article, but here might be a space for it in the Intercity buses in Europe article, that definitely needs love. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:07, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
The problem is that it is difficult to write without knowing how representative one's own impressions are. I try to add a few sentences, though. --LPfi (talk) 21:03, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
Maybe it would be better to have sections for countries/regions within the Intercity buses in Europe article so that people can add the biggest players in their country and roughly how the system works e.g. whether buses operate out of dedicated stations or curbside, whether prices vary by time of booking and so on and so forth. Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:39, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps. I am worried, though, that the article becomes a long list of countries, with information that really belongs in the By bus sections in country articles. I hesitate to add information on Finland that probably is true about many countries, or to say anything general about buses in Europe without knowing whether it is true for Spain, the Balkans and Russia.
The information here should be more like an overview, where the typical aspects of using a bus in different regions and different systems spanning more than one region are described. One point is that the international players introduce their systems more or less orthogonally in respect to the traditional systems of the countries. E.g. in Finland, Onnibus (a British company despite the name) is not part of the Matkahuolto cooperation, which otherwise handles tickets, timetables and freight uniformly across companies.
--LPfi (talk) 08:38, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
Well right now the dangers of the article lie not in it becoming too long any time soon. We can see what needs consolidating summing up and cutting down when we have some information assembled. I know a bit about the situation in Germany and less about that in France. I know nothing about e.g. Britain, but if we get some more info there, it may also be helpful to someone who wants to tour Europe but dislikes trains planes and cars. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:31, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
OK. I wrote a section on the Nordic countries. I hope more countries and regions will be added quite soon, so that the consolidating can be done. As it stands, I am also unsure whether the information I added is the information we want or need. --LPfi (talk) 15:29, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
Thank you. Let's see how it develops. I wrote a bit on the situation in Germany. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:55, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Linking numbers - prefix?[edit]

Hi. I am not 100 % sure if a prefix is needed when roaming. But the 112 number (police) should always work even without a sim-card and without connection to your operator. 112 should work in any country, as far as I understand. --Erik den yngre (talk) 08:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

For services like roadside assistance like 08505 perhaps you need prefix to make sure you dont call that number in your home country? --Erik den yngre (talk) 08:19, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes, probably. 112, 911 & al are special cases handled by the phone and/or the GSM (or whatever) network, while other numbers are handled by the normal phone switches. But I do not know how much routing information is included in the GSM network, it would be possible to handle also some other numbers as special cases. For numbers like 08505 there is quite high probability it is conflicting with a number in the home country, and probably no reason to think you won't need it when travelling.
This is an issue in any country, I raise it on Talk:Mobile telephones.
--LPfi (talk) 08:47, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Why is attribtuion not preserved with what I did at San Jose (disambiguation)?[edit]

Isn't it easy to see the history of the redirect and whatnot? I mean we can probably do some fancier stuff but for that sysop rights would be needed, which I don't have... Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:14, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes, we need a sysop. In the last comment on the talk page Traveler100 said:
"Page should be moved so that edit history is preserved. This may be a good idea but should have some agreement and be done correctly."
Traveller also thought this has not yet been discussed sufficiently.
When you arrive at the redirect, find the link to it on the target page, click the link and look at the history, then it is quite easy to infer what has happened, at least if you are seasoned with MediaWiki wikis. It is quite clear that this is not easy for a random reader.
If you arrive directly at the disambiguation page proper, which should be the page most people hit (otherwise the page shouldn't be at that name), the only indication that there is history elsewhere is that a large amount of text had been inserted at one time. How am I to draw the conclusion that the text was not original but copied from another page? And then I have to guess at what other page that is. Still quite easy for the seasoned (a check at the first guess should suffice), but you have to guess first.
--LPfi (talk) 14:36, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
would an edit summary saying "moved from (URL)" suffice? Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:03, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
Better than nothing (especially with a permalink), but why not let an admin move the page appropriately? --LPfi (talk) 12:35, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
Who'd do that? Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:54, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
Choose among these (Special:ListUsers/sysop, linked from Wikivoyage:Administrators). But, as Traveller100 (who is an admin) said, the issue concerns many articles, so better take it in the Travellers Pub first. --LPfi (talk) 06:35, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Share your experience and feedback as a Wikimedian in this global survey[edit]

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Admin[edit]

Thank you Ikan Kekek for the suggestion above. I appreciated it and wanted to answer properly, but time past. I thought I would not want to devote time to patrolling, so would do little with admin tools (at sv-wp my main admin actions are page moves). But the edits yesterday morning convinced my I might have use for the tools; It seems I sometimes am here when no admins are available. Thank you also AndreCarrotflower for your suggestion, I think, however, that it can wait. --LPfi (talk) 16:57, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. So I think you're saying you'd accept a nomination but don't feel an urgent need for one; is that right? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:00, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
I nominated myself. If I can help I do want to have the tools if the situation pops up again, and it seems it might. --LPfi (talk) 17:05, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
Oh, I didn't see the nomination. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:22, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
You are now an admin. Please feel free to lean on me or any other admin if you would like any help with the new buttons available to you - and lay off the red one! :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:23, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Welcome to the line! Long live Wikivoyage. Ibaman (talk) 00:29, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Thank you, both of you. --LPfi (talk) 07:30, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Sound files[edit]

Hi, LPfi. I see you plunged forward and made this edit, but you did it without any notice, let alone a discussion. Policies don't get changed unilaterally, so I'm surprised you made that edit. There have been long discussions about changing this policy, but no consensus to do so has been reached so far. If you would like to renew the discussion, you know you can do that on the talk page. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:30, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: I changed it according to my memory of the discussions, and now that I reread Wikivoyage talk:Image policy#Audio files I see no objection to using audio files in phrasebooks (which was one of the proposed uses). I did not find all the previous discussions, but I thought my wording was unspecific enough not to go into mined territory (and I supposed enough people watch the policies for problematic changes to be reverted). I am sorry I was not careful enough. --LPfi (talk) 15:09, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
It's OK, but my feeling is that until there's agreement on how sound files can and should be used in phrasebooks, there is no really useful consensus. The discussion has been renewed, so if you haven't already commented, please do. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:50, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
OK. I thought the wording in the image policy was too harsh, but you are right that it is better to agree on how audio files should be used, not just an agreement that they might be useful. --LPfi (talk) 11:43, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
Yes, because if a policy page doesn't provide guidance, it's not helpful to readers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:43, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

I changed the sound files text[edit]

Since it is related to this discussion, I wanted to let both of you know. I did it because I think there is now consensus that, in the case of phrasebooks, sound files may be used. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 02:48, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the clear edit. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:45, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Definite article[edit]

Hi! Please be sure to use the definite article (the) when writing about the EU, the UK, the U.S. etc. This is a grammar rule and not a matter of style. Thanks and best wishes, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:43, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, I will try. I am not totally sure about where the article is needed, and I suppose I have sometimes been just sloppy. --LPfi (talk) 15:42, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
If I may: I think that the definite article is needed whenever part of the name is itself a non-proper noun. So if a word like federation, kingdom, emirates, republic, union, state or states is part of a proper name, it takes "the". Examples: the United Kingdom, the Republic of Ireland, the People's Republic of China, the Islamic Republic of Iran, the Federation of Malaysia, the United Arab Emirates, the Soviet Union, the State of Israel. Of course, many of these names are formal and not the common names, which would be Ireland, Iran, Malaysia, Israel, etc., but where such titles or abbreviations of them are used (e.g., the U.K., the U.S., the U.S.S.R.), the name takes "the". (This rule doesn't apply to cases like The Hague, the Gambia or the Bronx, which nevertheless take "the".) Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:52, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
Thank you. I have never thought of that rule, although my ear guides me right in most of those cases (when I am alert). --LPfi (talk) 15:58, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure I thought of it so concretely, either, but it seems to work that way every time, so I think that's the reason. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:05, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
It's difficult to explain the rule, but Ikan has nailed it. Another 'rule-breaker' like the Gambia is 'the Netherlands'. But I suspect historically this was treated as a generic adjective-noun construction: "the nether (or 'low') lands".--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:35, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
BTW, thanks for putting yourself forward for administrator, and congratulations on your success in the vote.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:37, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. --LPfi (talk) 16:49, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for taking on the responsibility.
P.S. Thinking a little more about the rule on definite articles: There are some exceptions, like "city" and "lake". For example, we don't talk about "the New York City" or "the Lake Ontario", though rivers do get it: "the Hudson River", "the Mississippi [River]". I think the rule applies consistently only to countries with non-proper nouns as part of their name, and maybe occasionally to districts ("the District of Columbia", but "D.C." and "Washington, D.C."). Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:36, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
Lakes are one thing I struggle with: should Paanajärvi be called "Paanajärvi", "Lake Paanajärvi", "the Paanajärvi lake" or something else. I find it odd to make up an English name by adding "Lake", when the domestic name is perfectly good and already includes "järvi", while nobody has heard the made up version (but making it up seems common practice e.g. at nationalparks.fi). Same with rivers etc. --LPfi (talk) 17:00, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
I sort of hear when you need to have a definite article, maybe it has to do with the fact that I unlike most people have learned most of my English from (American) media rather than at school. I'm good at messing up prepositions and sometimes the word order. :P
It's indeed a bit problematic when the local name already includes the description of what it is (happens at least in most Germanic languages, Finnish, Estonian, and Korean), but I usually add the full name (e.g. Lake ??järvi, Mt ??berg), because I'm assuming the reader doesn't understand the local language and in English you're usually expecting to read Lake, Mount, River etc. before or after the name.
Och grattis till administratörskapet ;) --ϒpsilon (talk) 18:14, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
Tack! I mostly try to keep to the local name, clarifying when I think it is needed, as in "the Paanajärvi lake" above. I think people should get it when many enough lakes are "-järvi" (especially when I mention its shores or the like) or when the name is repeated, but I am aware that many people just find such words odd enough not to see any logic (like I often do with Arabic or Chinese). --LPfi (talk) 18:37, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
When the local name includes a word for "lake", I wouldn't add "lake" to it. It's weird, like calling something "pasta noodles" or something. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:46, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
And yet we have such names quite a bit when different languages combine. "Laacher See" ("Laach" being derived of course from "lacus" - lake) would be just one example. Or with abbreviations like LCD Display or stuff like that... Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:11, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
I remember deleting "island" in some phrase like "Pulau Perhentian Besar Island", as "pulau" is Malay for "island". Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:58, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Sierras and Sierra Nevada Mountains[edit]

In a recent edit summary of yours, you were asking about the connection between "Sierra Nevada" and "Sierras".

The answer is that the Sierra Nevada Range is often referred to as the Sierras. Since it seems that you did not know this before, it will probably worth clarifying in the mountain ranges article in case travelers do not know it either.

Thanks for the work you did on the article. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:23, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I guessed so, and I left that name in the Sierra Nevada bullet on purpose (but your version is of course clearer). My first guess was Mexican ranges, had to check Wikipedia for where the Cascade Mountains are. One cannot expect people from all over the world to know such jargon – "sierra" is Spanish for mountain range, so "the Sierras" could be any mountains with Spanish names (or called by the Spanish term). --LPfi (talk) 21:21, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
I see. Yes, there is even a Sierra Nevada range in Spain, I think. An option is to divide the North America section of the article into separate subsections by country; the problem with that is that the Rocky Mountains are in both the United States and Canada. But I'll try. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:18, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
I think describing mountain ranges by country is problematic, as they often span many countries and the border is arbitrary from the natural geographic standpoint. It may make sense in North America (with three enormous countries), but I do not see how that is related to the problem at hand. The original problem is solved as the proper name is used (confusion with the other Sierra Nevadas is easily avoided). --LPfi (talk) 05:43, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't this earlier, but I see what you mean, especially with the Rocky Mountains. I think it works okay in North America, especially the 3 largest countries that cover large regions, but for somewhere like Europe, Africa, or South America I think dividing by country should be avoided at all costs. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:03, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Congratulations on the administrator nomination[edit]

I want to congratulate you on your administrator nomination. I semi-apologize for not voting to support you in the WV:Administrator nominations; it's just that I didn't feel that I was familiar with a wide enough range of your edits at the time. I'm sure you're a good choice for administrator.

It's good to see the number of active administrators increase, even though some administrators have been de-sysopped having not been active over the past 2 years. The way things seem to be going presently, I may soon have the admin tools like you do, but after my first nomination I can never be confident!

As is the case with many Wikivoyagers, thank you for being here and for the edits you've made over time. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:09, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

sockpuppet[edit]

Could you please block Special:Contributions/08robertson.a as repeat vandalism? K7L (talk) 14:34, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Done --LPfi (talk) 14:41, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Map on home page[edit]

I just logged in using my i pad and just when i was about to leave,i saw that only a part of the map on the was to be seen. The Asian part was not visible. This was only on my i pad not my PC wherein it is still visible. Arep Ticous 11:49, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Somebody had similar problems not too long ago, there is a thread about it in the pub. I myself have no idea about how you could debug the problem. --LPfi (talk) 16:20, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
Also the next thread might be of interest. --LPfi (talk) 16:23, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Doppelgänger[edit]

Thanks for blocking the user that looks like my user name. How does this other user look the same, is there a hidden character or something? --Traveler100 (talk) 18:09, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Just a capital "i". I had to check with od – but from the edit history it was easy to see it wasn't you. I should really change to one of those fonts that make all characters look different, developed for programmers. --LPfi (talk) 18:17, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

"Massive f***ing bears and wolves" in Finnmark[edit]

This IP edit right here. :D

I softened down the statement, because such animals do theoretically exist all the way up in Norwegian Lapland according to Wikipedia, but of course your likelihood encountering a bear is, I think, even smaller than e.g. in North Karelia. As you seem to have quite good knowledge about the outdoors in Lapland, what do you say, should we keep my version or delete it altogether? --Ypsilon (talk) 13:50, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

In Finnish Lapland there are few wolves, bears or wolverines, as their attacks on reindeer are not taken lightly. I've understood there is a strong bear population in the Pasvik wilderness, but I'd suppose the population is rather sparse farther west. They are hardly a serious danger, in Finland I know about one deadly incident, in the 1990s (a jogger happened to get between mother and cubs and the claws hit unluckily). --LPfi (talk) 14:26, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, wild animals in general try to avoid people unless they feel threatened. Ypsilon (talk) 14:37, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
What you put is about right. The animals are about as dangerous as a troll, because chances are you'll never meet one, but in theory they can be deadly if all the wrong set of circumstances occur at the same time. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:44, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

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Tavastlands oxväg[edit]

I started an itinerary about the signposted historical route between Turku and Hämeenlinna, but am a bit puzzled what we should name the article in English.

English Wikipedia uses the Finnish name Hämeen Härkätie, then mentions "Oxen Road of Tavastia" in parenthesis. In Commons there's "Häme Oxen Road" as category name, "The Oxen road of Tavastia" again in the description. Back to WV, and we have "The Ox Road of Häme" in Turku#By_car.

What do you think, should we use the Finnish name like Wikipedia has done or pick one of the English versions or come up with our own translation? --Ypsilon (talk) 15:52, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

The Finnish Wikipedia seems to say the same – it might be the source of my memories. There the etymology has no explicit references, but the English article says mostly the same, citing a book on the road (but whether all of the paragraph is based on that source is hard to know). --LPfi (talk) 16:37, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
One reason to use the Finnish name is that the translations are based on a very dubious etymology, if I am not mistaken. My memory is, that oxen were not used on that route (other than perhaps locally), so the name has to have some other origin. One theory is härväg ("army road") → härkätie. I think the Finnish name is the only one that is solidly established. --LPfi (talk) 16:03, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
Which name do the local tourist boards use for their information in English? We'd be better following their lead than that of an encyclopaedia.ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:06, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
There's actually not that much English information available, at least online. So this could potentially become the best English-language guide for the route, like our King's Road (Finland) article.
I'd too go with the Finnish name, this is also what the road signs say. --Ypsilon (talk) 16:17, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
[edit conflict] Visit Turku uses "Ox Road of Häme". I think that is a spontanous translation. Otherwise I have a hard time finding anything relevant in English (except WP). I also think the road is mostly marketed to the Finnish, in Finnish. --LPfi (talk) 16:37, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
Okay, I found these: Härkätie (Ox Road of Häme) (visit Häme), Historic Ox Road (Visit Turku), Historic Ox Road (Outdoor Active), Historic Ox Road of Tavastia (Finland Naturally), Häme Ox Road (TripAdvisor). Okay, they're not all "official", but they're all marketing it to English-speaking tourists.ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:21, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
I suppose they think foreigners are too confused by Finnish words. And they are probably right, to an extent. I don't know whether our readers are more ready to learn enough of the local language to spell a name than the average English-speaking tourist. I'd like to think so. And then, in Finnish context "English-speaking" may mean German, Russian or Norwegian, adding to the difficulty of guessing language barriers. I do err on the side of correctness, so I should perhaps not be too loud about my opinion. --LPfi (talk) 17:36, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
Yes, there are some websites, but as you (TT) can see they don't seem to agree on a single translation for the road's name so that'd be a reason to stick to the name you will see along the road. --Ypsilon (talk) 17:41, 8 May 2020 (UTC)


So what's Tavastlands Oxväg? Is that Swedish? Whichever of the two is used on the signs would be my preference if we're not using English, but I'd be concerned that people searching for the route (either in Wikivoyage or on an external search engine) wouldn't necessarily be typing the native name; a couple of redirects and name-dropping the English terms in the article should in theory get around this, but I'm not sure of the mechanics of search engines.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:25, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
Yup, it's Swedish (my and LP's native language :)), and I think it's not used on the signs because out of the places along the road, Turku is the only place where Swedish is spoken by a notable number of locals. Ypsilon (talk) 19:39, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

For the avoidance of doubt[edit]

Hello mate. Just so you're aware, any new user who posts about closing down the pub or something similar is a long-term vandal, so should be indefbanned on sight. All the best, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:53, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

I suppose so. I am a bit curious whether they ever check their old accounts after it has been banned. Not so curious that it matters, though. --LPfi (talk) 10:04, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
This one, or one of their tiresomely similar clones, certainly recreates deleted user pages if you don't protect them.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:37, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
For previous accounts? OK. But I suppose they count on being blocked in half an hour, so they have no need to remember their password, so would not log in using an old account. --LPfi (talk) 11:36, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Block evasion[edit]

Hi mate,

You just blocked Special:Contributions/62.60.63.20 for one week. I would say there is a strong possibility that this is block evasion by User:ArticCynda which, if correct, should mean that IP is blocked for the 3-month maximum possible term with their edits removed. What do you think on the likelihood of this being BE?

All the best, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:27, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

I'd say 99 %. I have not analysed the edits, but a random troll would not have made them. –LPfi (talk) 11:33, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
@ThunderingTyphoons!: –LPfi (talk) 11:34, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
In that case, we know what to do.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:38, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
@ThunderingTyphoons!: It is still my own thinking, and this is not my game. There might be a person with similar interests and with sympathies for AC, but I think that is far fetched – and some of those sympathies we'd not want to have here in any case. –LPfi (talk) 11:44, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

LTA is back[edit]

Please block https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Racial_Microaggressions_Will_Not_Be_Tolerated. --DannyS712 (talk) 20:47, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Only a few edits though. –LPfi (talk) 21:05, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Swedish phrasebook[edit]

Hiya. It may not be on your watchlist, so if not would you mind checking the three most-recent edits (made from 09:22 to 10:18 UTC) to the Swedish phrasebook for accuracy? The same user has edited multiple phrasebooks over a short space of time and I'm not convinced they speak all of those languages. Hope you're having a good day, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:50, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm not LP but I'll reply anyways ;), and I can't say their edits improved any of the phrasebooks that much.
Swedish doesn't have a word for please. "Snälla du" would be understood but sounds a bit old-fashioned.
Both verbs "tala" (talk) and "prata" can be used, but as the former is used in the sentences above and below, let's use that one as in "Talar du engelska?"
For the bag edit, they didn't change the Swedish sentence, so you'd still be asking specifically for a plastic bag (a side note, paper bags are fairly common in Sweden nowadays as are reusable bags).
Also, concerning their Norwegian phrasebook edits, can't understand why the user made the Norwegian sentence less polite (also the Norwegian pronunciation wasn't updated), and the "No parking" looks machine translated from English. I'm 99% sure it should be something like "Parkering forbudt" (parking prohibited) but I see Erik has logged on recently, so he should know. --Ypsilon (talk) 13:45, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Thank you, Ypsi. No snub to you, I just looked to see who was online most recently. Please correct any languages you speak as necessary.
I have also found a slight issue on the Romanian phrasebook, so I'll try to contact speakers of the other languages where possible (we've got at least one of most, thankfully) to assess. To me, this looks like well-meaning edits from someone with limited knowledge of the languages in question, possibly using a dictionary or translation software.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:52, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
No problems, just noticed this when looking at Recent changes. On the bright side, they've kept their hands off the Hungarian phrasebook. :) --Ypsilon (talk) 13:58, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Well, no actually. But after several minutes of looking at Wiktionary, Linguee, and Reverso I came to the conclusion that Nem érdekel probably can be used to state a lack of interest in purchasing. But of course, it is Hungarian, where I'm in way over my head - in a Buda café, I once ordered what I was certain would be a pepperoni pizza, only to be served a whole ciabatta loaf stuffed with bits of chilli pepper :) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:30, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Yendalavasa grundenui ztudenka! Ypsilon (talk) 14:46, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Other than that, good that we have native and otherwise fluent speakers from dozens of languages here who can help out examining and (if needed) fixing the user's edits. Ypsilon (talk) 14:51, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Some funny translations. If a Norwegian asks "Kan du snakke engelsk?" (apparently identical to "Can you speak English?") it means something like "Can you please switch to English?" Norwegian and English are quite similar (lots of basic words in English migrated from Danish/Norwegian and syntax is similar), but in Norwegian we mostly ask questions using the relevant verb (rather than "to do" or modal verbs): "Speak you English?" or "Eat you meat?". :) Erik den yngre (talk) 17:18, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your help, Erik. I've requested help for Greek, Icelandic and Slovak. Ikan Kekek dealt with German and Italian. I've checked Albanian, Hungarian, Lithuanian, Polish and French. Now if one of you Finns could cast an eye over this, we've got this wrapped up with some excellent team work. Almost tempted to break into song. Almost. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:08, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Thank you all. Good to see such situations well handled, and the discussion here is nice to read. I had just contemplated whether I should do something about the speak samples we have talked about a few times, so when I saw the heading I thought somebody had had the same thought :-) I'll take a look at the Finnish, unless Ypsilon already did. –LPfi (talk) 18:17, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
And he did :-) –LPfi (talk) 18:21, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
FWIW User:IonutBizau and User:Romanichthys Valsanicola are Romanian speakers, I believe. --Ypsilon (talk) 18:30, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Weirdness[edit]

I have no idea where that phrase came from. Thanks for removing it. Ground Zero (talk) 21:15, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

It was added by an IP. I reverted it two hours before your edit. –LPfi (talk) 21:20, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
got it. Thanks. Ground Zero (talk) 21:37, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

HS[edit]

LPfi, I am listening to what you are saying about not engaging with him in order to avoid conflict, and I do. I let some things slide. For a while after you blocked him last June he seemed to have changed, but then in November he returned to using the rollback button as a weapon. I do believe that tolerating that behaviour will encourage him to continue it, so yes, I think it is important to stand up to him, rather than just backing away. Thank you for your intervention in this matter. Ground Zero (talk) 11:57, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

But I want to address your instruction on his talk page to both of us to stop edit-warring. I have tried to engage HS in discussion, but he refuses. I had made my argument for the change on the talk page, and waited 18 days for a response. Four minutes after I made the edit, he reverted it, with no discussion on the talk page. I appealed to him on his own talk page, and got no response. Unfortunately, reverting his edits is the only thing that gets his attention. Taking the high road and waiting for responses from him that never come just rewards him for ignoring Wikivoyage policies. Ground Zero (talk) 18:55, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
@Ground Zero: Thank you for these notes, and sorry about not responding earlier. I thought I had to sleep on it first.
It is a pity that nobody reacted to your article talk page message. Somebody should have made the changes instead of you, or said that the wording is OK and does not need a change. If we had done that, we had avoided the argument among you two. Edit warring is still not the way to act; if we don't take our responsibility, then please post a note on the pub or the rfc page, and try to comment as little as possible yourself. I hope that will be enough to make something happen. If the community does not back you up, then you cannot get it your way, it just boils down to fighting, and at that point you both are wrong.
As to HS not responding: it seems he feels cornered. If he responds on the matter, the discussion will deteriorate, if he doesn't, you won't leave him alone. I think he made his point quit clearly in the end. In his place I would have made a short comment right away, stating that I don't want to discuss with you, to avoid an argument, but feel I am right anyway. Pressing him will not make things better. He is a valuable contributor, and working together is much better than having the arguments.
So I feel it is the rest of the community that must handle this. I hope we are up to it, but I think that the less you engage in it, the better our chances to get things run smooth. I hope you can leave things alone when the issues are minor. I for one do not like if somebody "corrects" my style to something worse. I seldom have that issue here, as I appreciate your improving my contributions, but I do have it from time to time on sv-wp, when I feel somebody just dumbs down the text, removing any elegance and precision (fortunately, the occurences are rare).
LPfi (talk) 19:37, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
LPfi, thank you for your response. HS has used "other people" as a tactic several times. He has refused to respond to me, demanded that I get other people involved, and he remained silent. Usually, other people agree with my changes, and I implement them. I don't agree that refusing to participate in a discussion is an acceptable response, and that he should get his way because he doesn't want to discuss something. Further, it shouldn't be on me to try to get others to back me up, and other people shouldn't have to get involved every time he demands getting his way. As you know, if other people disagree with me, I work towards a compromise, or I accept the result and back down. But I always state my case in the talk page, and accept the result. If he won't participate in the discussion, there is no way of finding a compromise. HS does not accept the results of community decisions -- he just goes on doing his own thing. How much should we continue to coddle him and tolerate this behaviour?
In this case, I believed -- and Ikan Keken agreed -- that it was a matter of Wikivoyage style that was being violated. I don't think we should spend a lot of time arguing over issues that have already been decided. If someone wants to change the policy, they should start a discussion on the policy talk page, rather than kicking up a fuss when someone tries to apply the policy.
For the time-being, I will go back to raising any dispute in the pub. But I will also raise the question of whether it is a good use of the community's time. Thank you for your involvement in this matter. Regards, Ground Zero (talk) 20:23, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Babbel[edit]

Hi LPfi! Thank you so much for reinserting my Babel box with working syntax! I was struggling to do it myself! You've been very helpful. -La petite française

De rien, La petite française. I have had to look it up more than once myself, so I understand it is easy to not get it working. –LPfi (talk) 11:25, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Scandinavian languages[edit]

In Norway, we refer to Danish, Swedish and Norwegian as Scandinavian languages but I guess linguistically the islands are also regarded as Scandinavian languages. --Erik den yngre (talk) 11:51, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

According to the Wikipedias, the groups are "fastlandsskandinaviska" och "ö‑skandinaviska" in Swedish, and Continental Scandinavian and Insular Scandinavian in English. This implies "Scandinavian" is ambiguous, as both groups seem to be some sort of Scandinavian (although Scandinavian alone does not seem to be used in the article; "Nordic languages" is noted as a synonym to the North Germanic languages). I think using "Scandinavian languages" should be avoided in the article. –LPfi (talk) 12:40, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
I removed, better avoid ambiguities. --Erik den yngre (talk) 12:34, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

An award for you![edit]

Sydney Opera House, botanic gardens 1.jpg The Aussie Barncompass
This Barncompass is to show appreciation for helping me maintain Tourist Drive 33. --TravelAroundOz (talk) 10:47, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

An award for you![edit]

Barncompass.png The Wikivoyage Barncompass
See the full message at User talk:LivelyRatification SHB2000 (talk) 12:04, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Talk pages[edit]

I noticed you unarchived a section on my talk page. Please don't do this; it is already dormant and it is the user's (in this case, my) responsibility to archive. AnotherEditor144 (talk) 12:08, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

When I see somebody doing odd things like editing out listings from a joke article, I want to see previous discussions on the talk page. Does it seem that other editors trust this user and cooperates with them or are there a lot of complaints. Is this something that has been discussed earlier? Year-old discussions are of less interest, but those from less than a week ago should certainly be kept visible.
You said you archived those discussions. Where are your archives? I didn't find any subpages to your user page (such as User:AnotherEditor144/Archive_2020). Wading through history is not the thing one should have to do. This is especially inconvenient when more or less every thread has to be looked up individually.
Archiving is the user's responsibility. But it is not up to the user to decide when a thread can be deleted.
LPfi (talk) 17:46, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
My archives are at s:User:AnotherEditor144/Archives. When a thread can be deleted is also the user's responsibility, since it is going to be archived anyway.
"Wading through history is not the thing one should have to do." This is true of almost any other archive. AnotherEditor144 (talk) 15:47, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Please clarify[edit]

Hi LPfi, as I was just following examples of what I considered as good practice, that I had seen elsewhere in Wikivoyage, could you just clarify what you meant in this edit summary, where you say "this is Get in, and people will understand the ferries go back also - raise the issue at the pub if you think we should change our praxis". Specifically what you meant by "Get in" and "at the pub". Also is the "praxis" you refer to documented somewhere, to give me a chance to familiarise myself with any other of this type of quirk, so I don't waste any more time like this? Thanks. DeFacto (talk) 09:20, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

We have a standard section Get in, where the subsection you edited is (By train). The section is about "how to get to the destination" (see Wikivoyage:Article skeleton templates/Sections#Get in). How to get in the other direction is not explicitly covered, although of course, if a train does not go the other way that should probably be mentioned and where services are sparse I sometimes include a note on getting back.
The point is that there is no need to say "between" instead of "from", and when the latter wording is less convoluted it should be used unless there are specific reasons not to. The previous version and yours:
to London from Amsterdam, Brussels and Paris
and
between London and Amsterdam, Brussels and Paris
The "between" wording introduces a second "and", making sentence parsing a little more difficult. I, for one, would use a few tenths of a second more reading it – for no good reason.
If you look at well developed articles, e.g. those that recently have been featured (see Previous Destinations of the month), you will see they mostly use the "from" wording.
I hope you could start adding content instead of trying to change details in how we describe things. When you are more accustomed to the ways over here you can return to naming and wording details – at least you'll know what is random thoughtlessness, mistakes or sloppiness, and what in fact is established practice.
The pub is Wikivoyage:Travellers' pub, which is the main place to discuss among the community, similar to the village pump on Commons and most wikipedias.
LPfi (talk) 12:50, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
Wow, thanks for all that LPfi! That's enlightened me no end. I will now, hopefully, be far less annoying to other editors here. I've never heard of "Get in" as a standalone phrase before, and it always annoys me when I see a road or railway described as running from A to B, rather than between A and B. I suppose there's an introduction somewhere that I missed, that would have told me about these conventions. I'm not sure I'm brave enough to challenge established norms in the "pub", there seems to be a very cold welcome given to newcomers to WT, if my recent experiences are anything to go by. DeFacto (talk) 17:04, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
Thank you. I think there is no introduction anywhere except the ones linked from the welcome message you got; people are supposed to learn from what they see other people doing, especially from tweaks or reverts of their contributions, and the edit summaries or talk page messages in connection with them. You are welcome to challenge established norms in the "pub" – when you have got a feeling for how people think about different issues. I think the receipt for getting a cold welcome is starting with challenging norms and engaging in policy discussions before having contributed real content. There is a reason why things are like they are – sometimes just because nobody got the idea or did the work, but more often because any alternatives have their problems. Either way, strangers popping up telling people how they should do this or that is seldom appreciated. Once you have done the legwork things are different. –LPfi (talk) 18:02, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
Agree with the above 100% (was going to say 1000%, but that's just silly). I for one am very happy to gain an editor who knows about Ireland, something we've been seriously lacking until recently despite failed attempts to attract Irish Wikipedians, and sincerely hope you want to contribute content for articles related to that country. And even if your main interests lie elsewhere, an extra pair of hands to do the legwork (aha!) is always welcome.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:13, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

May I recommend a reader to go 20km/h below the speed limit or am I not allowed[edit]

Good Morning LPfi,

Just wanted to ask if I can tell the reader to go 80km/h in a 100km/h in Tourist Drive 33? The limit here is 100, but the last 4 times I went there, people were only doing 80, and not 100 simply due to safety. So, may I write about it or would it be considered as an opinion? Even, the advisory limit is 75 km/h and bends are frequent. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 12:16, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

@SHB2000: There is no prohibition on opinions at Wikivoyage. I'd also add some explanation, similar to what you are telling above, perhaps "Although the nominal speed limit is 100 km/h, driving at that speed is dangerous given the road conditions, and most people keep to 80 km/h, less in the bends" or "... 100 km/h, the officially recommended speed is 75 km/h, which is considerably safer". I added a similar remark to Driving in Finland: "Where minor roads default to 80 km/h, use your judgement. Often you need to be a rally driver to keep that speed, while you never know what is behind the next turn". My impression about advisory limits over here is that you'd be off the road unless you respect them (while speeding otherwise is normal practice). I don't know whether that is true for Australia. –LPfi (talk) 13:01, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Often, our speed limits are too low (especially in Western NSW - minimum 130 or 140, but I've seen people go 150) but this one is too high. Rather unusual to see 100 on this road. Most roads are 110 or 100 in NSW but this is not suitable for 100 at all. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:05, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
I suppose that is like our 80, the default where nothing else has been decided, which means it applies on most minor roads in the countryside, even those where it is hard to drive 30. 130+ feels very much, but I suppose the distances play a role. Up in Finnish Lapland 100 km/h is typical (despite the roads being undivided two-lane), while that's the typical limit on motorways in the southern (more densely populated) part of the country. Only a few motorways have 120 km/h, and only in summer. –LPfi (talk) 13:14, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
I was a huge fan of the NT open speed limits. I sadly never been on it but I've had family who've gone 180 or even 190. But still, there were no fatalities on that road and no speed related accidents. And the reason it was removed: change of party in the next election. And after that there were plenty of fatigue related fatalities. And 130 isn't uncommon here, considering that many places can be around 400-500km away from the next fuel stop or even town. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:20, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Also don't know what's the future speed limit on the future and new E39 motorway expressway on the west coast of Norway. Curious to see how the floating tunnel idea'll work on the fjords. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:34, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
[edit conflict] Yes, I understand. Even if the Nordic countries are sparsely inhabited by European standards, and Finland the most sparsely populated in the EU, we don't have that kind of distances. 500 km is halfway up through the country, and you can take your car on the sleeper train when going to Oulu or Rovaniemi, which otherwise would be the typical 500–1000 km drive (Nokia people would often take the train or fly Espoo–Oulu, as those had the two main Nokia facilities besides Salo, Rovaniemi is a hub for domestic winter vacations). –LPfi (talk) 13:48, 19 April 2021 (UTC)


I have not been following that project. According to Driving in Norway, the highest speed limit in the country is 110 km/h. I'd say crazy Norwegians, with the oil money to back up such ideas. –LPfi (talk) 13:56, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Norway has some of the longest road tunnels in the world. Oil money helps, but so does geology (Norway is largely relatively stable rocks which are easier to tunnel through than sand or geologically "busy" areas). Still, at a certain length you run into ventilation issues and I'll be curious how they'll solve them for their longest tunnels... Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:19, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure the only 110 is the motorway connecting to Gardnermoen airport. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 21:10, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Emergency numbers[edit]

Swept in from the pub

I noticed our country article template says:

If there are local or national safety contacts (or even standards such as "911" in the USA), note them.

I'd prefer there to be a note anyway. That way reading the country guide is enough for knowing at what level you should search for the numbers, and whether you have to update for every new city (or neighbourhood?). For editors it is good to know, as those numbers would be essential lower down in the hierarchy if there is no country-wide standard – and you'd know to note if they are missing at the relevant level. –LPfi (talk) 17:16, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

I don't fully understand what change you want to make. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:36, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
I'd like any country page to have a mention about whether there are standard emergency numbers in the country, and if not, point to the Stay safe sections at whatever level they should be mentioned at. And any article at that level should either have the numbers or some kind of pointer. –LPfi (talk) 12:43, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

abusehelper[edit]

Would you like for me to run the nom process at m:SRGP. Happy to do so. Billinghurst (talk) 08:38, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

@Billinghurst: I suppose it would be sensible for me to apply, and your doing it for me would be nice. I just haven't got around doing it, thinking I should read up on matters first, which probably isn't that important. –LPfi (talk) 09:56, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
Trust and need are the important things here. There is nothing to read. Billinghurst (talk) 10:54, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
:-)
I think my being admin on three projects, including on sv-wp since 2010, should talk some for the first. –LPfi (talk) 11:04, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
I would think so, and they were mentioned. You should have got a ping for the nom => m:SRGP#abusefilter-helper for LPfi. Probably worth a moment to accept or decline the nom, or comment otherwise. It is a while since I have done a nom, such a quaint thing of wikitime past. :-) Billinghurst (talk) 11:08, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
And thank you again. I was approved (I supposed the one closing the request would ping me, so forgot to check on it). –LPfi (talk) 12:59, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Patroller[edit]

Hi, could I have patroller here? The only reason is to gain access to the rollback tool, since TwinkleGlobal is not as good as the native rollback tool. Leaderboard (talk) 08:26, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

@Leaderboard: I am not doing much patrolling, so I haven't been following your edits. I believe you are doing a good job, but I don't want to base my judgement on a feeling, and I don't want to make a study. You'd better ask some of those who have been reverting/blocking along with you, and thus should have a good picture of your work. –LPfi (talk) 09:09, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
Hi OK. I don't do any patrolling (only reverting LTA edits here), so it's not a big thing. Thanks in advance. Leaderboard (talk) 09:13, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
I've actually wanted to put a message on the pub to give you autopatrolled status. Sadly didn't have the guts to. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 09:24, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
I checked the histories of a few articles where you had been reverting, and it seemed there nearly always had been some admins also reverting alongside you, often also protecting the page (didn't check the timespan, but no useful edits in between). –LPfi (talk) 10:32, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

A European Barncompass for you![edit]

Barncompass-Europe.png The European Barncompass
This Barncompass is to show appreciation for your great work on Swedish and Finnish articles on Wikivoyage. Hälsningar, --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:15, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
:-) –LPfi (talk) 13:39, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
Just had a look at your babel language scale, and I have to say, you certainly know a lot of languages. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 02:54, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
Not extraordinary over here. Most of my classmates that continued to university studied four languages in addition to our mother tongue, like me, in school or at the university. Most people not aiming for a vocational career choose to study three in school (Finnish and English are mostly compulsory). The German is extra: I stayed some time in a family where I had to speak the language, sort of, mostly gestures; we had no common language. I had caught some of the language from films etc. (we use subtitles, not dubbing – and Low German has influenced Swedish quite a bit). There are public sector sponsored courses available for anybody for an assortment of languages, if you are so inclined, and knowing e.g. Estonian or Russian would certainly be useful. –LPfi (talk) 06:29, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
Interesting! I do know a little bit of some indigenous Australian languages, but I've always wondered how many people in Europe can speak multiple languages. I guess this explains everything. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 06:32, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
My choir leader said languages are easy after the sixth :-)
We are much more exposed to foreign languages over here than what you are. In my generation everyone went on Interrail as teenagers, so you really got to use any language you dared speak. It is also quite common to go as au pair or exchange student abroad, and there are quite a few foreign students in Turku that you can mingle with if you want. Also professionally languages are useful, as much export is to Germany and Russia, in addition to Nordic or English-speaking countries, and French and German are important in the European Union. In the choir the repertoire included pieces in seventeen European languages (off the top of my head).
In the Nordic countries we don't dub films and television programmes, and people who want to see non-mainstream films usually go to see Spanish and French ones. In television English dominates (beside the domestic and Nordic supply), but there are regularly German crime films and the odd film in other languages (a series on Spain during Franco has been going on for years, and there was an Italian one not long ago).
And in Finland we have Finnish as bonus. I grew up in a bilingual family, so never had to struggle with the "other domestic" as it is called.
But I think it is nice that you have learnt indigenous languages. Is that common among non-indigenous Australians? I try to listen to Ođđasat in Sámi when I happen to be by the radio at the right time, but I only know a few words. It is not too close to Finnish, but there are some common words and loan words that one can recognise. I hope I'll get a better grasp by time.
LPfi (talk) 07:12, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

User:Anuj timetravel[edit]

The user does not appear to be editing in good faith, as his CentralAuth indicates spamming on Wikipedia. You may wish to block him temporarily. Edit: it is hard to say whether his Wikipedia edits are deliberate spamming, but you may want to keep a watch on him. Leaderboard (talk) 12:34, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

@Leaderboard: Thanks. Yes. I got that vibe here, but as long as he does not edit at more than that one place, and is discussing, I think we should give him some leeway. Let's see how it develops. –LPfi (talk) 12:39, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
I feel like it was him who created the harassment account against both of us. But only GRP thinks I'm an Antandrus sock. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 12:54, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
Could this user have also been paid editing. I noticed the discussion at w:User_talk:Bonadea#dnata. Might also explain their continued edit-warring. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:03, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
And this edit looks like vandalism at best to me. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:05, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
We welcome paid editors, sa long as they play by our rules, and the linked edit was probably a try at defending his position. People not too used to Mediawiki do odd edits. –LPfi (talk) 13:22, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

PP my talk page for another month[edit]

Hi there, I just wanted to ask you if I could have my talk page protected for another month. GRP's not aware of my IP talk page, and the day the protection expired, it got vandalised. Even if, the situation could be resolved if 82 creates an account, but I'll leave it like that for now. Thanks, SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 09:29, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

I was too late, it seems, I just extended the protection seeing your edit comment. –LPfi (talk) 09:33, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
Thanks! SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 09:36, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

20000th edit[edit]

Hi there, congratulations your 20000th edit on the 19th of June (Sunday) on the article Karasjok. You've done a lot of great work on this site, and also, do you contribute to the Svenscka Wikivoyage? The message is a little late, but I only realised today. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:48, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. I haven't looked at the statistics. I have done very little at sv-wp. Last I looked there seemed to be too little of a community for me to see it worthwhile, especially as I think the templates/the layout should be changed, i.e. much should be reworked later. I would like the pages on Finland to be good there (big possible "market"), and perhaps I will put an effort in it at some point – but that should be an effort big enough to bring Finland to usable. –LPfi (talk) 12:12, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
No worries. I should say that while I'm more than happy to be a sysop on certain projects, sv.wv seems more in between. I don't mind being a sysop on the two tiny terrible Nauruan wikis since I'm running it alone (or at least, that's what it feels like) but when it has a bit more people, I'm not too big of a fan, but if it had a lot more people (like en.voy), it seems to me a more worthwhile and once too big like en.wp, I'm not willing to do much there. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 12:17, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

An award for you![edit]

Cartier Island.png The Ashmore and Cartier Islands Barncompass
For spending the whole arvo yesterday making Ashmore and Cartier Islands which initially sounded like a joke article, to more a proper, serious article that actually summarises all the information needed. Well deserved. Something that was needed for months, but you finally did the job :) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:29, 23 June 2021 (UTC)


:-) –LPfi (talk) 12:40, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
(: SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 12:55, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Finnish taxis[edit]

From Joensuu, I quote:

Do taxis really run on fixed routes? Or is it a translation issue with the website that Vkem straight off copied off. Here's the original text:

Demand responsive taxes operate in Kiihtelysvaara, Tuupovaara, Eno and Uimaharju. Taxes run on fixed routes according to schedule, but will deviate from its route slightly if needed. Call the taxi at least one day before by calling the driver directly, indicate your destination and agree the schedule with the driver. You can pay your journey only in cash.

I've tried to copyedit it, but I want to know how the demand responsive taxis work in Finland. Do they run on fixed routes? Taxis are meant to be flexible, after all they're one's cabbie driver that will take them wherever one requests and within a reasonable distance. Why do taxis have schedules? I thought taxi drivers just go when a customer asks them. The description differs a lot from what I know as a taxi.

If you could clarify what that means, that would be awesome.

(p.s. if you haven't noticed already on User talk:Ikan Kekek#Vkem, would you think taking the autopatroller flag off him be a good idea?)

Thanks! --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:04, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

@SHB2000: The quote is from the By bus section, isn't it? I don't know the terminology in English and systems vary from municipality to municipality, but I suppose the system is like the "call taxis" or "line taxis" in Pargas, the taxiline buses in Ingå, the flexible bus lines in Naantali and the airport shuttles for some ski resorts.
They are called taxis in the Joensuu article (and elsewhere) because the transport is arranged by taxi entrepreneurs in cooperation with the municipality, using their ordinary vehicles. Many taxi companies, especially in the countryside, have transport of school children and disabled people as a central part of their business, some also have a charter business, so they have minivans and minibuses in their fleet, suitable for this use when a normal car would be insufficient.
The original text you quoted makes full sense for me. Does it for you after reading my explanation? I suppose we might want to add a section on these kinds of systems to Finland#By bus, as it seems some context is needed for people to trust they understand what they read. You might also want to read what I wrote about them in Bus travel: "Where there is a need for public transport, but no economically viable market, ..."
LPfi (talk) 10:35, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the response. Now it makes sense to me. It also makes sense why it's in the By bus section. :) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:37, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

How concise do we want our text?[edit]

Swept in from the pub

I'd like a discussion on how much we should write in understand, in this case in Talk, where Roovinn has been cutting down extensively. The last example is Finland, where the section on the Swedish speaking population was cut down to

Swedish is the mother tongue of 5.6 % of Finns. [--- section on Finnish ---] Swedish speakers can be found in areas close to the Swedish border, Närpes, Korsnäs, Larsmo, Vaasa, Porvoo and the Åland Islands.

There are no Swedish speaking Finns for two hundred (?) kilometres from the Swedish border that I know, and the mentioned localities cover perhaps 1/4 of the Swedish-speaking population. I'd request some more carefulness, but that's not what to discuss here.

Points removed include:

  • [Swedish is] closely related to Norwegian and Danish
  • The Swedish speakers are concentrated along most of the coast, with smaller communities in some cities elsewhere.

and

  • In Åland and the Swedish parts of Ostrobothina, people typically speak little or no Finnish. In traditionally Swedish-majority towns like Vaasa (Vasa) and Porvoo (Borgå) nearly half the population is Swedish-speaking and service in Swedish is expected by many Swedish-speaking locals. In cities like Helsinki and Turku, on the other hand, there is a lively Swedish cultural scene and most people know enough Swedish to deal with simple conversations you engage in as a tourist and often at least somewhat beyond, but living would be quite tough without knowledge of Finnish.

was condensed into "In cities like Helsinki and Turku, most people know enough of Swedish to deal with simple conservations."

Don't we want the removed information? Was this excessively wordy?

Swedish is of course a minority language, so a traveller could get along just speaking English and ignoring the language relations – in fact, many Swedes do just that. On the other hand, Swedish is one of the two "national languages" and understanding the subtleties around this subject could help avoid being an elephant in the porcelain shop.

LPfi (talk) 06:45, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

And then there is the issue about style and including context. For Rovaniemi:
Because of its central location and status as a provincial capital, Rovaniemi has become a center of education in Finnish Lapland. [...], as many as one out of five people are university level students.
The city also offers plenty of educational opportunities, and has the feel of a university town. [...] have about 10,000 students in total.
Also here details were removed, such as
Being not to big a town (the radius is about a kilometre), the best way to get around [is by foot]
Being not too big of a town, the best way to get around [is by foot]
LPfi (talk) 07:02, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
In my opinion, I don't think cutting down extensively is a good idea. This just leads to confusion, and sometimes, detail is needed. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 07:24, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
It's great to be pithy when no essential or really useful information is removed. However, we should remove useful information with great caution. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:58, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
On the 3 points that were removed, the first one is probably the least useful (Swedish is related to Norwegian and Danish) and may have a reasonable case to be removed. The other two points however would be relevant for the traveller (where Swedish is predominant as opposed to Finnish). If you're planning a trip to Finland and it includes a few days in Åland, it's important to know that brushing up on your Finnish won't be of much help there. Gizza (roam) 09:57, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

sv.wv[edit]

This isn't something about Wikivoyage, but I might just let you know about this since you're quite active on numerous Swedish WMF projects, being an admin on two. But sv.wikiversity is closing, and I thought you may want to also propose whether it should stay or be closed. Here's the link: m:Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Swedish Wikiversity. Cheers, SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:28, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. I have not participated in wikiversities, but I put the page on my watchlist. Vätte seems to suggest there will be activity on the project. –LPfi (talk) 11:37, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Log[edit]

Without revealing too much info to the public, the spam blacklist log is different to the abuse log. You can see the spamming here. Cheers, --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:46, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

@SHB2000: Thank you. I see four attempts to add the URL to one article, but I cannot see the attempted edit itself. But the old URL is alive, so I suppose you are right. –LPfi (talk) 13:37, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
I don't think you can even see the attempted edit. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 21:49, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
I suppose so. Which means one should not try to infer too much from it. But the existence of the old site, with a different name for the owner, is enough that the "new domain" isn't very convincing. I don't know that the block is necessary, though. –LPfi (talk) 07:46, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
I blocked them as block evasion since Ikan Kekek blocked them for a month last week. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:52, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
I think such users cannot be assumed to know our procedures, and we should understand their frustration. Now that they are discussing, we should allow them to. The domains are definitely related, not a random other business trying to get rid of a competitor. –LPfi (talk) 10:57, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
OK, but what I still don't get is if the user claims their business domain has changed, why are they putting the old one? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:17, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
I don't know that they have been adding the old domain. I suppose they have been changing the old one to the new one, and that is what got them blocked and the new domain blacklisted. Now, I interpret the situation such that the business has been split. We don't know which domain belongs to the "true" successor, and it is even possible that we should list both – or neither. It is difficult to judge from across the globe with no neutral part to consult. –LPfi (talk) 06:25, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Taxi stations in Finland[edit]

Just to confirm, do taxi stations in Finland have a phone number to it. I noticed this edit. A taxi station in Australia is similar to a street bus stop, except it has no timetable, and hailing a taxi often takes about an hour. But do taxi stations in Finland have phone numbers, and are they in a building, or are they just similar to the US or Australia? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:09, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

@SHB2000: There are taxi ranks (colloquially: "taxi poles"), which are like what you describe: a sign in the street and a queue of taxis (some of the queues mostly empty), and at air ports, ferry arrival etc. also a queue of customers. These are not called taxi stations.
Then we have taxi stations. These have the sign, but also rest facilities for taxi drivers. Before mobile phones this was often where you called to have a taxi. Either any driver who happened to be there would answer, or there might be a separate person answering calls and calling taxis by radio. In cities the calls were handled by more sophisticated call centres.
The answering of calls is now mostly handled by country-wide call centres, but some taxi stations remain, and some have kept a landline phone, like, it seems, the linked Kankaanpää. Probably calls will be answered by any driver who happens to be there.
LPfi (talk) 05:24, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
I see. Makes sense. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:13, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Moving articles back to Redirect Name[edit]

A user recently moved Gujo and Omihachiman to Gujō and Ōmihachiman respectively, but by our naming conventions (Tokyo, not Tōkyō) and using the most common names, they should be moved back. I left a comment on the person's user page, but then I remembered I can't move it back without removing attribution. Can you do this?

For some more proof of common usage being without the accents: Gujo travel sites: [1], [2], [3] Gujo Tourism Association: [4] Gujo City's website: [5]

Omihachiman in travel sites: [6], [7], [8], [9] Omihachiman Official Tourist Site: [10] Omihachiman City website: [11]

Even in a basic Google search, none of the results aside from Wikipedia use the accents, so I think they are well-established as having English names. Since you are admin, I believe you have the capabilities of reverting or moving them back without losing the edit history. (If I am mistaken and I actually can do this without admin, let me know. I don't want to bother admin if it's not necessary). Thank you. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 07:13, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes Reverted I believe it doesn't need an admin, as I've done this before I became an admin. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:18, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
SHB2000 Thank you! ChubbyWimbus (talk) 07:29, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
[edit conflict] @ChubbyWimbus: A page can be moved back after a move without admin privileges. The redirect created by the original move will be deleted, but as it was automatically created and the move itself remains in the history, there is no attribution or history problem in this case. An admin is needed only in more complicated cases, or if you don't want a redirect left behind at the temporary name. Now SHB2000 suppressed the redirect as admin, but a redirect with the markings is no problem (we have one from Tōkyō), and if somebody thinks it is, it can be deleted afterwards. –LPfi (talk) 07:32, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
I didn't even leave a redirect though. Those two search terms are very unlikely. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:41, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
@SHB2000: No, you didn't, and for that privileges were needed. I am not going to create the redirects, but you might want to consider that even if the two are unlikely as typed in search terms, they are much less unlikely as pasted in search terms. –LPfi (talk) 07:47, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
But who will paste it? For the most part, the accent has been omitted in tourist guides, and so it's unlikely. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:50, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
@SHB2000: For the most part, which isn't enough. The person reading a web page where they are used and pastes the name from there will search by the accented name. It doesn't need to be a tourist guide. For the redirect not to be useful, there should be no such web pages at all. I don't remember our policy on this and don't want to make this any larger issue, but I very much think that such redirects do no harm and might be useful. –LPfi (talk) 08:19, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Islands of Tuvalu[edit]

If you're not aware, more than any Polynesian country, Tuvalu is probably the most scattered with islands all over the place. It's got multiple population centres, but most notably the island of Funafuti has more people than the others, and hence why their only airport is here. In saying that Funafuti only also gets about 2 flights a week, prior to the pandemic, only coming from Fiji, which is also quite isolated.

I watched a documentary on this some time ago and getting to these smaller islands is basically not possible unless you go through a local who has a fishing boat. And moreover, there's only about 6 months where you can do that before half of Tuvalu goes underwater. Because of all these factors, I restored it, because it in its own right needs a whole subsection. It just was that no one brought it up until LTA did.

--SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:24, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

@SHB2000: I don't know Vaitupu, but "maintaining its Western-style traditional way of life" did not convince me as description. Usually traditional lifestyle is seen as different from the Western lifestyle, and "Western" refers to the modern Western lifestyle, which is not traditional even in the West. Also, I don't understand the wording about going there "There is no harbour on Vaitupu, but also has a wharf as direct possible access for small boats from inter-ships". The sentence would at least need copy editing, which perhaps could make it comprehensible. As I neither understand nor trust what is said, I cannot support the listing. If somebody knows the facts about the island and can describe them comprehensibly, then it's another thing. –LPfi (talk) 10:40, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
Basically live life in a western way and still do what you traditionally did. It's very popular in Oceania, especially with Aboriginals in Australia, or Kanaks in New Caledonia, but really, there's a lot more I could list. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:50, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
Then I'd say something like "They live a Western lifestyle mixed with local traditions". Then I don't understand the "no harbour but a wharf" thing. OK, partly that might be because "wharf" is word I need to look up. "Inter-ships" is also an unknown term for me, perhaps something that should be explained in Tuvalu#Get around (or Oceania#Get around?). If there is regular ship traffic and those let you to the shore by small boats, then I don't get what is near-impossible about it. You need a flight matching the ship departure, and a transfer to that flight, but that does not sound near impossible to me. –LPfi (talk) 12:15, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
But there's no regular ship departure. It is just by chance if a local agrees to take you. It's 122km by boat, and it's highly unlikely a local would do that, especially on a small fishing boat on the rough Pacific Ocean. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:22, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
OK, so what are those inter-ships? And isn't this true of most islands in the Pacific? How many do we want to mention individually? –LPfi (talk) 12:27, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
Small fishing boats. Something like this. This is true, but only to Tuvalu, the Cook Islands and Kiribati. But none are so far away from each other like Tuvalu. (for that matter, Tuvalu has a bigger EEZ than some countries in Europe and Africa.) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:42, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Nokia[edit]

This edit right there. Do you think that is Vkem but logged out? Edit looks like a typical edit of his. But the main question is that in Finland, is it important to mention which country brands are from? (Just want to know since do certain countries like Germany get a better reputation than other country brands?) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:05, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

I mentioned the countries in Turku and he (I suppose it's him) has copied my wording from there. (I am not too happy he does that, as duplication means more maintenance work, and he doesn't attribute the original.)
In practice, the country of origin probably makes no difference (except for privacy, where EU and USA are different). However, many travellers do like to favour local businesses, and it is a "nice to know" trivia.
LPfi (talk) 08:16, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
We do have something similar where often German, Swedish, Finnish, Japanese or American brands are often more reputable, and brands from elsewhere are not so reputable (including the UK at times) but considering how the Australian manufacturing industry is non existent, it's no surprise why often we don't have local brands. Oh and to Vkem, is it just me, or do you also find it hard to believe that they were a former sysop on the Finnish Wikipedia. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:29, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
He got elected in 2003, after a discussion on the email list of the project. There were no earlier posts on his talk page. I wasn't involved at those times, especially not regarding administration of fi-wp, so have no idea about what the practices looked like. Seems he worked hard on creating articles – and I suppose that was what had to be done at the time. –LPfi (talk) 09:26, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, in the early days of Wikipedia adminship was treated rather like a reward for content creation, unlike now where you'd need to do some janitorial work + article work to become an admin. Of course, it differs by project, where some still small language wikipedias would be giving adminship for content creation, but now that only stewards can give adminship on small projects, that also seems gone. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:37, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Would you also consider this to be him? Typical edit of his. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:20, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

It is the same IP address block, see Special:Contributions/2001:14BB:A1:4805:88FF:D3DB:461D:4BD2/32. –LPfi (talk) 13:56, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
Thought there'd be more edits by others in the /32 range but it seems mostly him. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 14:01, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
Aargh. It'd be /64, of course, and that's only this one edit. But yes, it seems like him. If it stays the only edit from that block, we'll never know. –LPfi (talk) 14:08, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
Per the duck test, that's obviously him. (Now, what am I doing this late at 00:22) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 14:23, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

.json lines[edit]

Quite interesting to see how much byte size they can sometimes take up... Oxley Highway was earlier in Special:ShortPages but it seems now it's in Special:LongPages. Might do E8 through Finland and Norway next, although that'll probably take at least two hours. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:58, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I reduced the json size in the riverside walk by 16 kB by truncating the values to dm resolution instead of nm (!). That's only 10 % of the article, though. One could cut at least twice as much by sacrificing the indentation. Such changes are quite easy to do with emacs (or sed, perl or the like). I had put in a comment with lower resolution coords, which messed up my first try – reverting is easy but troubleshooting less so.
I suppose E8 could be done using the wikidata-OSM coupling instead of tracing. For me it would probably take the same 2 hr, but it would be much cleaner.
What about markers? They disappeared when you added the maplinks to the riverside walk, was that intentional? There should be some way for the reader to easily summon them.
LPfi (talk) 11:15, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
I was wondering the same too. Wikivoyage:How to use dynamic maps#Adding districts and tracks isn't very helpful in giving answers on the markers. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:31, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
LPfi, I cannot believe what I'm seeing in Turku riverside walk! It worked. The markers are now back. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:50, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
[edit conflict] No. I searched there too. Can you refer to the markers by a name in the show clause? Ah! I see you got the same idea :-)
Nice!
LPfi (talk) 11:52, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
Now I guess I've got to re-write the tutorials. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:03, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
At least add these findings. It seems their prime target audience is those working with maps more than casually, so some of the hard-to-grasp passages may be justified, although context and language should be clarified. –LPfi (talk) 12:12, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

One thing I wonder about is how to treat alternative route sections. I have now mostly drawn the main routes and then added the alternatives individually: a-b-c-d-e + b-b'-c + d-d'-e, although you'd use either a-b-c-d-e or a-b-b'-c-d-d'-e. I don't know what grouping would be appropriate. E.g. the bridges downstream are now individual polylines, and I use only route1. –LPfi (talk) 12:22, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Me too. Considering how .json lines are something that were long forgotten until now, the only other person who might be technical enough to figure it out is K7L, I dunno. I'm still quite new to json, unlike .css or HTML. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:51, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
I've made a little tutorial here, which is more designed for the non-technical people. I didn't go into all the advanced and all that, and I didn't mention anything about saving your code onto github (I do that, but it's not a must). Feel free to edit or make changes to it. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 14:10, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
OK. I'll take a look at some point. –LPfi (talk) 11:26, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
I just happened to finish E8. Took me 2.5 hours. Time consuming but worth the result. But I don't think I've ever added 230,378 bytes of text in a mainspace article before... SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 13:08, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
:-)
Json is 2/3 of the Turku itinerary. I did group the routes, as I find you can choose what routes to show if you have the map in fullscreen. I think grouping like how I did works, but I'd like a way to include a section in several routes without duplicating the data. That would allow showing a specific route variant. In the Turku itinerary that would be mostly useful for bike/pram/wheelchair/other (colour coding would be an obvious alternative, but it works better for showing trail quality). For later editing labelling would be nice (scrolling up and down unannotated coordinate lists is error prone and frustrating). I have added comments ("//", "/* ... */"), but I suppose there is some more stringent way to do it.
LPfi (talk) 14:41, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Docent for Turku?[edit]

Hi LPfi, just wondering on whether you've considered on becoming a docent for Turku, given your local knowledge and we can never be too short of docents? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:51, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

@SHB2000: Thank you for asking. I have thought about it, but I am not really comfortable with the idea, mainly because having my name on the page gives a feeling of responsibility that I don't like. I am happy to help, but I don't like I'd be supposed to help. I know, it's kind of silly, as docents cannot be assumed to be available all the time. Partly the feeling is due to real life concerns, related or not. Perhaps later. –LPfi (talk) 12:51, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Yeah that's fine. Although I signed up for about 11 pages, most, if not all of them are low visibility towns or places that I just go frequently, and those are nothing in size compared to Turku. And yet it seems I've still to this date had zero questions asked. But Turku is much bigger than all of those that I've signed up so understandable.
But I do still wonder, was the docents thing a failed project? I haven't seen any questions asked on anyone's talk on those who've signed up. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:57, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
I don't know. I think it is mostly about us having quite small a reader base, and many of those reading might not be planning real travel, at least not to all places they are reading about. Even when on their way, not everybody asks questions, and few ask as the first one in a certain forum. I know the feeling from other forums: yes, anybody is allowed to write, but am I in this group of anybodies? –LPfi (talk) 13:12, 16 September 2021 (UTC)