User talk:LPfi/archive

Welcome

Hello, LPfi! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. --Saqib (talk) 21:52, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I think I mostly know my way, with experience from Wikipedia & al (I've read some of the guides here also). If you think the way I work could be improved, I'll be thankful for specific advice. --15:31, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for writing Hiking in the Nordic countries. It's a great article. All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:10, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I am glad you like it. --LPfi (talk) 10:35, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to echo that, shaping up nicely, thanks! --Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 19:10, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

And a thanks for me in taking an interest in Cruising on small craft—it's a topic I have a lot of interest in. --Peter ^Talk 18:37, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I'd be happy to help, but I think we need more people with experience in the area. I might write something about the Baltic Sea, but I think at least somebody knowing about Germany or Poland would be needed to make anything worthwhile out of it (I might be able to handle Finland and Sweden). --LPfi (talk) 09:41, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Write what you can, it will encourage someone to add the parts you can't do yourself. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 10:01, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

I'll probably try at some point and we'll see whether it works. I am a little bit afraid of premature generalisations that may slip in. --LPfi (talk) 13:38, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Hiking_in_the_Nordic_countries - I really like that one - I think it is possibly a good template article to follow for other parts of the world! sats (talk) 08:24, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. --LPfi (talk) 17:07, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Helsinki districts

Morjens! :) Me and Danapit are discussing splitting up Helsinki in separate districts. Come and have your say! Ypsilon (talk) 09:53, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

OK. I am no expert, but I commented. --LPfi (talk) 13:47, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Archipelago Sea

Great job with Archipelago Sea! Danapit (talk) 15:04, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. Nice to hear you like it. --LPfi (talk) 18:39, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Regions of Finland

Hello! I was wondering if you have seen the discussion on reorganization of Finnish regions? What do you think? --Danapit (talk) 10:48, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I have been taking a look now and then. As you may have noted, I dislike the division according to the "new" (now obsolete) provinces, so I do not oppose changes. I do not have much comments on the present suggestion, though, at least not before finding ϒpsilon's map. --LPfi (talk) 10:57, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you :) --Danapit (talk) 11:00, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I'll start implementing the changes now. I've already uploaded a new version of the map. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:39, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Exchanging of currencies phased out in favour of the Euro

Hi, I saw your edit in the European Union's article relating to the Euro. While I agree there may be a small probability of tourists getting conned into buying or accepting some amounts of an obsolete currency, I find the passage suggesting it can be exchanged unnecessary - it is highly unlikely a tourist would find themselves in such a situation. And if they did, it is still better for them to contact the actual central bank rather than be advised by a tour guide they can still do something very unlikely. I was also surprised to learn just now that Latvias Banka will still exchange Lats for Euros after the window closes, but I believe this is an exception to the rule - most central banks do not FWIK. PrinceGloria (talk) 15:25, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

I think you are right about tourists getting old currency. They should not accept it, although I have no opinion whether the risk of such incidents is big enough to be mentioned (it was removed with a comment suggesting the editor hadn't thought about the issue). For central banks, yes, most (central) banks are exchanging currency long after it has become obsolete, e.g. in Finland for ten years or the like. But for the average tourist, finding a bank doing the exchange and knowing what currencies can still be exchanged is too much of a hassle. --LPfi (talk) 11:10, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

I believe Finland stopped exchanging the currency - I just checked that you cannot exchange the old Finnish mark anymore. The first countries who did this did leave a long window as this was largely an experiment (the last time European countries adopted hamornized currencies was in the 19th century with the Latin Monetary Union), but the following countries saw that as unnecessary and shortened the period considerably. The original countries have already closed their windows FWIK, and the only open window is Latvia's. At any rate, I guess this is an invented problem a tourist wouldn't rather encounter, and I guess we agree this should not be mentioned. PrinceGloria (talk) 19:29, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

PS. What's with the situation in Finland? The law says that the retailers do not have to accept 0.01 and 0.02 and allows Swedish rounding, and I am being informed most retailers do take advantage of this provision. Can you pay with 0.01 or 0.02 at McDonalds or R-Kioski?

Yes, since the last of February 2012 "grandma's markkas" can no longer be directly changed to Euros. One needs to go to numismatic stores, just like with 100 year old coins and bills. BTW if you are exchanging money in an European country at a real exchange booth, the risk that they are going to hand you some worthless old currency is very small compared to black market exchange in some lesser traveled part of the world.

Over here, if you pay your purchases by card you will pay the exact sum. If you pay by cash they round it up or down so that the price ends in 0 or 5. The Bank of Finland and the Bureau of Competition and Consumer's Protection say that 1 and 2 cent coins are legal tender, however individual establishments may refuse to accept them if they clearly state it in writing outside the shop, eatery or whatever. I vaguely remember seeing such notes on the doors of establishments when the Euro arrived but I can't remember seeing/noticing anything like that lately. So basically one should be able to pay with 1 and 2 cent coins, but if the final sum is e.g. €4.48 you need an additional 2 cent (or two 1 cents) because they are going to ask for €4.50. Disclaimer: I've never tried to pay with the smallest coins in Finland, though. ϒpsilon (talk) 20:04, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

This is my impression also (living in Finland), although I did never notice any "1 and 2 cent refused" signs and the information to the public I have read mostly just explain you can pay with those coins, but not to avoid the rounding (nothing about possibility to refuse).

I agree the exchange options should be irrelevant for the traveller. In numismatic stores the price depends on the quality of the coin or note and is probably bad for ordinary money. I think the long exchange period was about domestic tradition: Until the early 1990s any Finnish markka was legal tender (although only a fool would pay with money more than a few decades old).

--LPfi (talk) 07:42, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

pets on ferries

Hi, I see you made an edit regarding pets on cross channel ferries. Would be interested to know which ones allow pets on deck as I have never been able to find one. --Traveler100 (talk) 18:18, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't know about ferries of the English channel, but "short and medium haul ferries" is quite a broad category. E.g. on Viking Line and Tallink Silja between Helsinki and Tallinn (about the same length, I suppose) pets are allowed to stay in the vehicle, to travel in cabins reserved for the purpose or to travel in a cage. There are pet toilets on deck at least on the Viking Line ships. Pets are also welcome on deck on many (nearly all?) ferries in the Finnish archipelago. For the longer passage Turku–Stockholm (11 hours, would this be "medium haul"?), pets are allowed in the cabins (if reserved for one party) and on deck, guide dogs nearly anywhere. Not all of the ferries take pets, though. --LPfi (talk) 06:25, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

External link fixes in the Venice article

Thanks a lot! How did you do that? Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:07, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Copy to emacs, then search "[http:", adjust mark or text manually if needed, manipulate the string between mark (beginning of link text) and "]" automatically with a trivial macro, find next. The pure syntax changes were fast (and could have been even faster), but there were many non-standard expressions. --LPfi (talk) 13:28, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Säilytystä Turun satamassa / Förvaring i Åbo hamn

Näytät osaavan sekä suomea että ruotsia, joten en viitsi kysyä englanniksi.

Onko Turun satamassa säilytyslokeroita, joihin voisin laittaa ison partiolaisrinkan siksi ajaksi joka kuluu hotellistani uloskirjautumisen ja laivalle lähtemisen välillä? Rinkka on noin metrin pitkä ja painaa täytenä melkein 10 kg. Se menee helposti Tukholman rautatieaseman isoimpiin säilytyslokeroihin, mutta ei pienimpiin.

Du verkar kunna förstå båda finska och svenska, så jag ska inte fråga på engelska.

Finns det förvaringslådor i Åbo hamn som jag skulle kunna lämna en stor scoutryggsäck för den tiden emellan check-out från mitt hotell och skeppets avgång? Ryggsäcken är ungefär en meter lång och väger fast 10 kg fullt packad. Den går lätt in i de största förvaringslådor i Stockholm järnvägstation, men inte i de minsta. JIP (talk) 20:09, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Jag har aldrig använt terminalerna för annat än att checka in och gå ombord, så jag vet inte, men jag har aldrig sett sådana (i sin hemstad har man sällan sådana behov). Ett samtal till Viking Line (det var visst med dem du skulle resa) kunde löna sig, i synnerhet om man fortfarande kan ringa dem som faktiskt finns i Åbo. En annan möjlighet vore att fråga någonstans på vägen: om du t.ex. skall besöka Åbo slott kunde du fråga där (att lägga in en ryggsäck bakom disken torde inte vara alltför svårt för dem; de stänger i och för sig redan 18). Också hotellen har vanligen ett förvaringsrum just för det här ändamålet. --LPfi (talk) 09:43, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Hotellen har ju ett förvaringsrum, det har jag kollat på. Men det är obevakat. Förvaringslådor i stället borde vara låsbara (åtminstone de på Stockholm järnvägstation är) så det blir mindre risk för att ryggsäcken skulle bli stulen. JIP (talk) 11:42, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Jag kom ihåg att jag behövde berätta hur det gick. Det gick alldeles bra, Åbo hamn har lika sotra förvaringslådor som Stockholm järnvägstation, så det var inte någon problem att lämna min hela ryggsäck då för den tiden då jag var ute i Åbo. Jag bara behövde hämta min ryggsäck tillbaka då jag gick ombord Viking Grace. JIP (talk) 20:19, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Finemang! Tack för att du berättade. --LPfi (talk) 07:26, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Alcoholic beverages edit

Yes, you do make the point. I misread the edit in the first place. Sorry about that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:58, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

 :-)

--LPfi (talk) 17:13, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

An award for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	For valuable contributions, especially to several good Travel topics that have been, or will be featured on the Main Page, please have a Barncompass! ϒpsilon (talk) 15:51, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. --LPfi (talk) 18:46, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Recreational shooting

You may find this hard to imagine or understand, but at least in the U.S., some people shoot animals just for fun, then don't eat them or sell or give away their meat. That's probably what's meant by "recreational shooting". Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:55, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: Yes, I think we have such people over here also. Shooting just for the fun of shooting might be called recreational shooting, but handling it in Animal ethics by just warning about regulation and giving a link about how to do it is absurd. On the other hand, I call shooting mink or nutria hunting, even when they are shot for being pests (in the particular environment) and not for the fur. For the observer it is hard to distinguish such hunt from shooting for the fun of it, other than that the latter usually requires easy targets.

I also feel awkward about the Recreational shooting article, which seems to imply the shooting just for fun aspect. I think hunting should be handled in a separate article. Not all hunting is done with firearms and there are lots of aspects beyond that of shooting. For me, competitive shooting and hunting are very different beasts - and neither fits the "shooting just for fun". (Firearms law should of course be handled in one place, be it separately or together with competitive shooting.)

--LPfi (talk) 10:52, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Funny, I was told that Recreational shooting redirected to Hunting. Now I see it doesn't. Well, anyway, I think I'll just respect however you decide to handle this one and stop interposing myself on this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:45, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

I started to write a stub on hunting, but doing even the start well requires more work than I want to put in it for the moment. Still, perhaps I'd better start it sooner rather than later. --LPfi (talk) 17:57, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Admin?

Hi, LPfi. You're a great contributor, you've been here since 2013 and understand policy - in short, I believe you'd do a good job as admin if you were made one. Do you have any interest in having a few more editing tools, such as the ability to roll back spam and vandalism with one click? Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:24, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Intercity buses in the Nordic Countries

It seems to me that you and User:Yvwv have some knowledge of intercity buses in the Nordic countries. Do you think this would be a better approach to the topic than the current small section in the Nordic countries article and the rail and bus travel in Sweden article? It appears to me that the Nordic countries have a bus market predating the German and French legal changes of the 2010s and are still mostly dominated by local companies. Or am I mistaken on that? Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:11, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, there has been a large market for coaches in the Nordic countries as long as I know anything about it. The railways cover only part of the countries, and also e.g. in the busy Helsinki–Tampere–Turku triangle coaches and trains have competed at least since the 70s. I have no detailed knowledge about other countries than Finland, but I suppose they are similar at least in this respect.

There have been drastic changes in the last ten or twenty years, but they are not that obvious for the passengers. Earlier the market was regulated, and the companies had the same routes as it seemed forever (but "regular" lines in the countryside got more sparse as people bought cars and moved to cities). Now regulations are much less strict, routes have to be offered to all interested parties, and companies such as Onnibus are allowed to invent routes of their own. This has of course resulted in many small companies being bought up, some companies growing, and bargain prices being found on the net for some routes. Still many coach users have seen no change, except for Onnibus, conductors having to find other jobs and immigrants now being common as drivers of city buses.

In Sweden it seems that the provinces are the ones responsible for coach lines, and still dominate the market except for the busiest regions and some niches. In Norway there seems to be a few big companies dominating the scene, but I cannot tell whether that is the whole story.

--LPfi (talk) 18:44, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

I am not sure there are enough similarities in the Nordic bus market to have a separate article for it. Rather I think we could have a paragraph in the Intercity buses in Europe and develop the sections in the country guides a bit (as many arrive by plane and car rental is expensive, I think buses are important for most travellers coming here). For the European article, I'd like to know what the market is like in e.g. Spain, the Balkan and Russia. Is the development there similar to France and Germany? --LPfi (talk) 18:51, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

I know next to nothing about the market in Spain or the Balkan, especially as it pertains to inside those regions as opposed to to/from those regions. In Germany and France intercity buses were regulated in a way that they basically only existed on a handful of routes. There used to be "rail replacement" buses on routes where the Bundesbahn had torn out the rail line, but they were often broken up a few years afterwards and by reunification no trace of them was left. There were buses to/from Berlin, mostly as a holdover from the incredibly bad rail connections during German partition, but other than that there were only slightly seedy international buses eastward mostly serving the Yugoslav diaspora. So the emergence of Flixbus really changed the picture completely. User:Yvwv argues on Talk:Nordic countries that there likely isn't a big enough overlap between the individual countries to make it its own article, but here might be a space for it in the Intercity buses in Europe article, that definitely needs love. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:07, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

The problem is that it is difficult to write without knowing how representative one's own impressions are. I try to add a few sentences, though. --LPfi (talk) 21:03, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Maybe it would be better to have sections for countries/regions within the Intercity buses in Europe article so that people can add the biggest players in their country and roughly how the system works e.g. whether buses operate out of dedicated stations or curbside, whether prices vary by time of booking and so on and so forth. Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:39, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps. I am worried, though, that the article becomes a long list of countries, with information that really belongs in the By bus sections in country articles. I hesitate to add information on Finland that probably is true about many countries, or to say anything general about buses in Europe without knowing whether it is true for Spain, the Balkans and Russia.

The information here should be more like an overview, where the typical aspects of using a bus in different regions and different systems spanning more than one region are described. One point is that the international players introduce their systems more or less orthogonally in respect to the traditional systems of the countries. E.g. in Finland, Onnibus (a British company despite the name) is not part of the Matkahuolto cooperation, which otherwise handles tickets, timetables and freight uniformly across companies.

--LPfi (talk) 08:38, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Well right now the dangers of the article lie not in it becoming too long any time soon. We can see what needs consolidating summing up and cutting down when we have some information assembled. I know a bit about the situation in Germany and less about that in France. I know nothing about e.g. Britain, but if we get some more info there, it may also be helpful to someone who wants to tour Europe but dislikes trains planes and cars. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:31, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

OK. I wrote a section on the Nordic countries. I hope more countries and regions will be added quite soon, so that the consolidating can be done. As it stands, I am also unsure whether the information I added is the information we want or need. --LPfi (talk) 15:29, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you. Let's see how it develops. I wrote a bit on the situation in Germany. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:55, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Linking numbers - prefix?

Hi. I am not 100 % sure if a prefix is needed when roaming. But the 112 number (police) should always work even without a sim-card and without connection to your operator. 112 should work in any country, as far as I understand. --Erik den yngre (talk) 08:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

For services like roadside assistance like 08505 perhaps you need prefix to make sure you dont call that number in your home country? --Erik den yngre (talk) 08:19, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, probably. 112, 911 & al are special cases handled by the phone and/or the GSM (or whatever) network, while other numbers are handled by the normal phone switches. But I do not know how much routing information is included in the GSM network, it would be possible to handle also some other numbers as special cases. For numbers like 08505 there is quite high probability it is conflicting with a number in the home country, and probably no reason to think you won't need it when travelling.

This is an issue in any country, I raise it on Talk:Mobile telephones.

--LPfi (talk) 08:47, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Why is attribtuion not preserved with what I did at San Jose (disambiguation)?

Isn't it easy to see the history of the redirect and whatnot? I mean we can probably do some fancier stuff but for that sysop rights would be needed, which I don't have... Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:14, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes, we need a sysop. In the last comment on the talk page Traveler100 said:

"Page should be moved so that edit history is preserved. This may be a good idea but should have some agreement and be done correctly."

Traveller also thought this has not yet been discussed sufficiently.

When you arrive at the redirect, find the link to it on the target page, click the link and look at the history, then it is quite easy to infer what has happened, at least if you are seasoned with MediaWiki wikis. It is quite clear that this is not easy for a random reader.

If you arrive directly at the disambiguation page proper, which should be the page most people hit (otherwise the page shouldn't be at that name), the only indication that there is history elsewhere is that a large amount of text had been inserted at one time. How am I to draw the conclusion that the text was not original but copied from another page? And then I have to guess at what other page that is. Still quite easy for the seasoned (a check at the first guess should suffice), but you have to guess first.

--LPfi (talk) 14:36, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

would an edit summary saying "moved from (URL)" suffice? Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:03, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Better than nothing (especially with a permalink), but why not let an admin move the page appropriately? --LPfi (talk) 12:35, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Who'd do that? Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:54, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Choose among these (Special:ListUsers/sysop, linked from Wikivoyage:Administrators). But, as Traveller100 (who is an admin) said, the issue concerns many articles, so better take it in the Travellers Pub first. --LPfi (talk) 06:35, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

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Admin

Thank you Ikan Kekek for the suggestion above. I appreciated it and wanted to answer properly, but time past. I thought I would not want to devote time to patrolling, so would do little with admin tools (at sv-wp my main admin actions are page moves). But the edits yesterday morning convinced my I might have use for the tools; It seems I sometimes am here when no admins are available. Thank you also AndreCarrotflower for your suggestion, I think, however, that it can wait. --LPfi (talk) 16:57, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. So I think you're saying you'd accept a nomination but don't feel an urgent need for one; is that right? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:00, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

I nominated myself. If I can help I do want to have the tools if the situation pops up again, and it seems it might. --LPfi (talk) 17:05, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't see the nomination. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:22, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

You are now an admin. Please feel free to lean on me or any other admin if you would like any help with the new buttons available to you - and lay off the red one! :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:23, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

• Welcome to the line! Long live Wikivoyage. Ibaman (talk) 00:29, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, both of you. --LPfi (talk) 07:30, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Sound files

Hi, LPfi. I see you plunged forward and made this edit, but you did it without any notice, let alone a discussion. Policies don't get changed unilaterally, so I'm surprised you made that edit. There have been long discussions about changing this policy, but no consensus to do so has been reached so far. If you would like to renew the discussion, you know you can do that on the talk page. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:30, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: I changed it according to my memory of the discussions, and now that I reread Wikivoyage talk:Image policy#Audio files I see no objection to using audio files in phrasebooks (which was one of the proposed uses). I did not find all the previous discussions, but I thought my wording was unspecific enough not to go into mined territory (and I supposed enough people watch the policies for problematic changes to be reverted). I am sorry I was not careful enough. --LPfi (talk) 15:09, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

It's OK, but my feeling is that until there's agreement on how sound files can and should be used in phrasebooks, there is no really useful consensus. The discussion has been renewed, so if you haven't already commented, please do. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:50, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

OK. I thought the wording in the image policy was too harsh, but you are right that it is better to agree on how audio files should be used, not just an agreement that they might be useful. --LPfi (talk) 11:43, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes, because if a policy page doesn't provide guidance, it's not helpful to readers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:43, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

I changed the sound files text

Since it is related to this discussion, I wanted to let both of you know. I did it because I think there is now consensus that, in the case of phrasebooks, sound files may be used. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 02:48, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the clear edit. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:45, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Definite article

Hi! Please be sure to use the definite article (the) when writing about the EU, the UK, the U.S. etc. This is a grammar rule and not a matter of style. Thanks and best wishes, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:43, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, I will try. I am not totally sure about where the article is needed, and I suppose I have sometimes been just sloppy. --LPfi (talk) 15:42, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

If I may: I think that the definite article is needed whenever part of the name is itself a non-proper noun. So if a word like federation, kingdom, emirates, republic, union, state or states is part of a proper name, it takes "the". Examples: the United Kingdom, the Republic of Ireland, the People's Republic of China, the Islamic Republic of Iran, the Federation of Malaysia, the United Arab Emirates, the Soviet Union, the State of Israel. Of course, many of these names are formal and not the common names, which would be Ireland, Iran, Malaysia, Israel, etc., but where such titles or abbreviations of them are used (e.g., the U.K., the U.S., the U.S.S.R.), the name takes "the". (This rule doesn't apply to cases like The Hague, the Gambia or the Bronx, which nevertheless take "the".) Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:52, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. I have never thought of that rule, although my ear guides me right in most of those cases (when I am alert). --LPfi (talk) 15:58, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure I thought of it so concretely, either, but it seems to work that way every time, so I think that's the reason. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:05, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

It's difficult to explain the rule, but Ikan has nailed it. Another 'rule-breaker' like the Gambia is 'the Netherlands'. But I suspect historically this was treated as a generic adjective-noun construction: "the nether (or 'low') lands".--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:35, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

BTW, thanks for putting yourself forward for administrator, and congratulations on your success in the vote.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:37, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. --LPfi (talk) 16:49, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for taking on the responsibility.

P.S. Thinking a little more about the rule on definite articles: There are some exceptions, like "city" and "lake". For example, we don't talk about "the New York City" or "the Lake Ontario", though rivers do get it: "the Hudson River", "the Mississippi [River]". I think the rule applies consistently only to countries with non-proper nouns as part of their name, and maybe occasionally to districts ("the District of Columbia", but "D.C." and "Washington, D.C."). Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:36, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Lakes are one thing I struggle with: should Paanajärvi be called "Paanajärvi", "Lake Paanajärvi", "the Paanajärvi lake" or something else. I find it odd to make up an English name by adding "Lake", when the domestic name is perfectly good and already includes "järvi", while nobody has heard the made up version (but making it up seems common practice e.g. at nationalparks.fi). Same with rivers etc. --LPfi (talk) 17:00, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

I sort of hear when you need to have a definite article, maybe it has to do with the fact that I unlike most people have learned most of my English from (American) media rather than at school. I'm good at messing up prepositions and sometimes the word order. :P

It's indeed a bit problematic when the local name already includes the description of what it is (happens at least in most Germanic languages, Finnish, Estonian, and Korean), but I usually add the full name (e.g. Lake ??järvi, Mt ??berg), because I'm assuming the reader doesn't understand the local language and in English you're usually expecting to read Lake, Mount, River etc. before or after the name.

Och grattis till administratörskapet ;) --ϒpsilon (talk) 18:14, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Tack! I mostly try to keep to the local name, clarifying when I think it is needed, as in "the Paanajärvi lake" above. I think people should get it when many enough lakes are "-järvi" (especially when I mention its shores or the like) or when the name is repeated, but I am aware that many people just find such words odd enough not to see any logic (like I often do with Arabic or Chinese). --LPfi (talk) 18:37, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

When the local name includes a word for "lake", I wouldn't add "lake" to it. It's weird, like calling something "pasta noodles" or something. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:46, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

And yet we have such names quite a bit when different languages combine. "Laacher See" ("Laach" being derived of course from "lacus" - lake) would be just one example. Or with abbreviations like LCD Display or stuff like that... Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:11, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

I remember deleting "island" in some phrase like "Pulau Perhentian Besar Island", as "pulau" is Malay for "island". Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:58, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Sierras and Sierra Nevada Mountains

In a recent edit summary of yours, you were asking about the connection between "Sierra Nevada" and "Sierras".

The answer is that the Sierra Nevada Range is often referred to as the Sierras. Since it seems that you did not know this before, it will probably worth clarifying in the mountain ranges article in case travelers do not know it either.

Thanks for the work you did on the article. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:23, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I guessed so, and I left that name in the Sierra Nevada bullet on purpose (but your version is of course clearer). My first guess was Mexican ranges, had to check Wikipedia for where the Cascade Mountains are. One cannot expect people from all over the world to know such jargon – "sierra" is Spanish for mountain range, so "the Sierras" could be any mountains with Spanish names (or called by the Spanish term). --LPfi (talk) 21:21, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

I see. Yes, there is even a Sierra Nevada range in Spain, I think. An option is to divide the North America section of the article into separate subsections by country; the problem with that is that the Rocky Mountains are in both the United States and Canada. But I'll try. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:18, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

I think describing mountain ranges by country is problematic, as they often span many countries and the border is arbitrary from the natural geographic standpoint. It may make sense in North America (with three enormous countries), but I do not see how that is related to the problem at hand. The original problem is solved as the proper name is used (confusion with the other Sierra Nevadas is easily avoided). --LPfi (talk) 05:43, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't this earlier, but I see what you mean, especially with the Rocky Mountains. I think it works okay in North America, especially the 3 largest countries that cover large regions, but for somewhere like Europe, Africa, or South America I think dividing by country should be avoided at all costs. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:03, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Congratulations on the administrator nomination

I want to congratulate you on your administrator nomination. I semi-apologize for not voting to support you in the WV:Administrator nominations; it's just that I didn't feel that I was familiar with a wide enough range of your edits at the time. I'm sure you're a good choice for administrator.

It's good to see the number of active administrators increase, even though some administrators have been de-sysopped having not been active over the past 2 years. The way things seem to be going presently, I may soon have the admin tools like you do, but after my first nomination I can never be confident!

As is the case with many Wikivoyagers, thank you for being here and for the edits you've made over time. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:09, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

sockpuppet

Could you please block Special:Contributions/08robertson.a as repeat vandalism? K7L (talk) 14:34, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Done --LPfi (talk) 14:41, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Map on home page

I just logged in using my i pad and just when i was about to leave,i saw that only a part of the map on the was to be seen. The Asian part was not visible. This was only on my i pad not my PC wherein it is still visible. Arep Ticous 11:49, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Somebody had similar problems not too long ago, there is a thread about it in the pub. I myself have no idea about how you could debug the problem. --LPfi (talk) 16:20, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Also the next thread might be of interest. --LPfi (talk) 16:23, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Doppelgänger

Thanks for blocking the user that looks like my user name. How does this other user look the same, is there a hidden character or something? --Traveler100 (talk) 18:09, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Just a capital "i". I had to check with od – but from the edit history it was easy to see it wasn't you. I should really change to one of those fonts that make all characters look different, developed for programmers. --LPfi (talk) 18:17, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

"Massive f***ing bears and wolves" in Finnmark

This IP edit right here. :D

I softened down the statement, because such animals do theoretically exist all the way up in Norwegian Lapland according to Wikipedia, but of course your likelihood encountering a bear is, I think, even smaller than e.g. in North Karelia. As you seem to have quite good knowledge about the outdoors in Lapland, what do you say, should we keep my version or delete it altogether? --Ypsilon (talk) 13:50, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

In Finnish Lapland there are few wolves, bears or wolverines, as their attacks on reindeer are not taken lightly. I've understood there is a strong bear population in the Pasvik wilderness, but I'd suppose the population is rather sparse farther west. They are hardly a serious danger, in Finland I know about one deadly incident, in the 1990s (a jogger happened to get between mother and cubs and the claws hit unluckily). --LPfi (talk) 14:26, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, wild animals in general try to avoid people unless they feel threatened. Ypsilon (talk) 14:37, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

What you put is about right. The animals are about as dangerous as a troll, because chances are you'll never meet one, but in theory they can be deadly if all the wrong set of circumstances occur at the same time. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:44, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Community Insights Survey

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Sincerely,

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Tavastlands oxväg

I started an itinerary about the signposted historical route between Turku and Hämeenlinna, but am a bit puzzled what we should name the article in English.

English Wikipedia uses the Finnish name Hämeen Härkätie, then mentions "Oxen Road of Tavastia" in parenthesis. In Commons there's "Häme Oxen Road" as category name, "The Oxen road of Tavastia" again in the description. Back to WV, and we have "The Ox Road of Häme" in Turku#By_car.

What do you think, should we use the Finnish name like Wikipedia has done or pick one of the English versions or come up with our own translation? --Ypsilon (talk) 15:52, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

The Finnish Wikipedia seems to say the same – it might be the source of my memories. There the etymology has no explicit references, but the English article says mostly the same, citing a book on the road (but whether all of the paragraph is based on that source is hard to know). --LPfi (talk) 16:37, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

One reason to use the Finnish name is that the translations are based on a very dubious etymology, if I am not mistaken. My memory is, that oxen were not used on that route (other than perhaps locally), so the name has to have some other origin. One theory is härväg ("army road") → härkätie. I think the Finnish name is the only one that is solidly established. --LPfi (talk) 16:03, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Which name do the local tourist boards use for their information in English? We'd be better following their lead than that of an encyclopaedia.ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:06, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

There's actually not that much English information available, at least online. So this could potentially become the best English-language guide for the route, like our King's Road (Finland) article.

I'd too go with the Finnish name, this is also what the road signs say. --Ypsilon (talk) 16:17, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

[edit conflict] Visit Turku uses "Ox Road of Häme". I think that is a spontanous translation. Otherwise I have a hard time finding anything relevant in English (except WP). I also think the road is mostly marketed to the Finnish, in Finnish. --LPfi (talk) 16:37, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Okay, I found these: Härkätie (Ox Road of Häme) (visit Häme), Historic Ox Road (Visit Turku), Historic Ox Road (Outdoor Active), Historic Ox Road of Tavastia (Finland Naturally), Häme Ox Road (TripAdvisor). Okay, they're not all "official", but they're all marketing it to English-speaking tourists.ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:21, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

I suppose they think foreigners are too confused by Finnish words. And they are probably right, to an extent. I don't know whether our readers are more ready to learn enough of the local language to spell a name than the average English-speaking tourist. I'd like to think so. And then, in Finnish context "English-speaking" may mean German, Russian or Norwegian, adding to the difficulty of guessing language barriers. I do err on the side of correctness, so I should perhaps not be too loud about my opinion. --LPfi (talk) 17:36, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, there are some websites, but as you (TT) can see they don't seem to agree on a single translation for the road's name so that'd be a reason to stick to the name you will see along the road. --Ypsilon (talk) 17:41, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

So what's Tavastlands Oxväg? Is that Swedish? Whichever of the two is used on the signs would be my preference if we're not using English, but I'd be concerned that people searching for the route (either in Wikivoyage or on an external search engine) wouldn't necessarily be typing the native name; a couple of redirects and name-dropping the English terms in the article should in theory get around this, but I'm not sure of the mechanics of search engines.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:25, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Yup, it's Swedish (my and LP's native language :)), and I think it's not used on the signs because out of the places along the road, Turku is the only place where Swedish is spoken by a notable number of locals. Ypsilon (talk) 19:39, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

For the avoidance of doubt

Hello mate. Just so you're aware, any new user who posts about closing down the pub or something similar is a long-term vandal, so should be indefbanned on sight. All the best, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:53, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

I suppose so. I am a bit curious whether they ever check their old accounts after it has been banned. Not so curious that it matters, though. --LPfi (talk) 10:04, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

This one, or one of their tiresomely similar clones, certainly recreates deleted user pages if you don't protect them.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:37, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

For previous accounts? OK. But I suppose they count on being blocked in half an hour, so they have no need to remember their password, so would not log in using an old account. --LPfi (talk) 11:36, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Block evasion

Hi mate,

You just blocked Special:Contributions/62.60.63.20 for one week. I would say there is a strong possibility that this is block evasion by User:ArticCynda which, if correct, should mean that IP is blocked for the 3-month maximum possible term with their edits removed. What do you think on the likelihood of this being BE?

All the best, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:27, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

I'd say 99 %. I have not analysed the edits, but a random troll would not have made them. –LPfi (talk) 11:33, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

@ThunderingTyphoons!: –LPfi (talk) 11:34, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

In that case, we know what to do.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:38, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

@ThunderingTyphoons!: It is still my own thinking, and this is not my game. There might be a person with similar interests and with sympathies for AC, but I think that is far fetched – and some of those sympathies we'd not want to have here in any case. –LPfi (talk) 11:44, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

LTA is back

Please block https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Racial_Microaggressions_Will_Not_Be_Tolerated. --DannyS712 (talk) 20:47, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Only a few edits though. –LPfi (talk) 21:05, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Swedish phrasebook

Hiya. It may not be on your watchlist, so if not would you mind checking the three most-recent edits (made from 09:22 to 10:18 UTC) to the Swedish phrasebook for accuracy? The same user has edited multiple phrasebooks over a short space of time and I'm not convinced they speak all of those languages. Hope you're having a good day, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:50, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm not LP but I'll reply anyways ;), and I can't say their edits improved any of the phrasebooks that much.

Swedish doesn't have a word for please. "Snälla du" would be understood but sounds a bit old-fashioned.

Both verbs "tala" (talk) and "prata" can be used, but as the former is used in the sentences above and below, let's use that one as in "Talar du engelska?"

For the bag edit, they didn't change the Swedish sentence, so you'd still be asking specifically for a plastic bag (a side note, paper bags are fairly common in Sweden nowadays as are reusable bags).

Also, concerning their Norwegian phrasebook edits, can't understand why the user made the Norwegian sentence less polite (also the Norwegian pronunciation wasn't updated), and the "No parking" looks machine translated from English. I'm 99% sure it should be something like "Parkering forbudt" (parking prohibited) but I see Erik has logged on recently, so he should know. --Ypsilon (talk) 13:45, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Ypsi. No snub to you, I just looked to see who was online most recently. Please correct any languages you speak as necessary.

I have also found a slight issue on the Romanian phrasebook, so I'll try to contact speakers of the other languages where possible (we've got at least one of most, thankfully) to assess. To me, this looks like well-meaning edits from someone with limited knowledge of the languages in question, possibly using a dictionary or translation software.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:52, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

No problems, just noticed this when looking at Recent changes. On the bright side, they've kept their hands off the Hungarian phrasebook. :) --Ypsilon (talk) 13:58, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Well, no actually. But after several minutes of looking at Wiktionary, Linguee, and Reverso I came to the conclusion that Nem érdekel probably can be used to state a lack of interest in purchasing. But of course, it is Hungarian, where I'm in way over my head - in a Buda café, I once ordered what I was certain would be a pepperoni pizza, only to be served a whole ciabatta loaf stuffed with bits of chilli pepper :) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:30, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Yendalavasa grundenui ztudenka! Ypsilon (talk) 14:46, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Other than that, good that we have native and otherwise fluent speakers from dozens of languages here who can help out examining and (if needed) fixing the user's edits. Ypsilon (talk) 14:51, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Some funny translations. If a Norwegian asks "Kan du snakke engelsk?" (apparently identical to "Can you speak English?") it means something like "Can you please switch to English?" Norwegian and English are quite similar (lots of basic words in English migrated from Danish/Norwegian and syntax is similar), but in Norwegian we mostly ask questions using the relevant verb (rather than "to do" or modal verbs): "Speak you English?" or "Eat you meat?". :) Erik den yngre (talk) 17:18, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your help, Erik. I've requested help for Greek, Icelandic and Slovak. Ikan Kekek dealt with German and Italian. I've checked Albanian, Hungarian, Lithuanian, Polish and French. Now if one of you Finns could cast an eye over this, we've got this wrapped up with some excellent team work. Almost tempted to break into song. Almost. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:08, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you all. Good to see such situations well handled, and the discussion here is nice to read. I had just contemplated whether I should do something about the speak samples we have talked about a few times, so when I saw the heading I thought somebody had had the same thought :-) I'll take a look at the Finnish, unless Ypsilon already did. –LPfi (talk) 18:17, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

And he did :-) –LPfi (talk) 18:21, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

FWIW User:IonutBizau and User:Romanichthys Valsanicola are Romanian speakers, I believe. --Ypsilon (talk) 18:30, 26 November 2020 (UTC)