User talk:ThunderingTyphoons!

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Hello, ThunderingTyphoons!! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. If you are familiar with Wikipedia, take a look over some of the differences here.

Thank you for your Farnborough edits. jan (talk) 14:15, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you very much jan. I'm excited to get started on this brand new Wiki project! --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:17, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Great editing job on France! Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:19, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Why thank you! :-) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:05, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


I'm sorry that correct grammar doesn't "sound" good to you, but I assure you the edit you reverted was correct. I would ask you to please reinstate it. LtPowers (talk) 18:27, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. My understanding is that this is disputed by grammarians, and that ultimately either is fine. But the proposed wording has the disadvantage of being awkward (not used colloquially) and pedantic. --Peter Talk 18:56, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
Yeah that's what I meant. I'm sorry that the wording in my summary irritated you LtPowers, but I am one of those people who has a good 'gut feeling' for correct grammar, though I am not very good with the proper terminology. I realise my summary doesn't sound very professional and a bit rude and I apologise for that, but like Peterfitzgerald I believe the way the text was originally written agrees better with "concentrations" which is plural and thus flows more naturally. Regards, --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:33, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
Well, I guess my ninth-grade English teacher deserves a stern talking-to. Considering I wrote it that way initially, as well as modern consensus among grammar wonks, I apologize. It will take me some time to unlearn, although perhaps not as long as I think (given the way I wrote it originally). LtPowers (talk) 20:35, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

No need to be rude

(swept from User_talk:W._Frank)

"move Dundee AGAIN since domestic only and NOT one of the 5 INTERNATIONAL airports, correct typos, etc"

Perhaps you should write a notice to triggerhappy editors in the section since this a persistent (and clearly infuriating) problem, instead of biting someone's head off for making an edit in good faith. Yes, I now realise it reads very clearly that the list is for international airports but it was an honest mistake and not something for which I'd expect to be subject to your short temper. Regards --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:26, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I was a bit surprised to suddenly find the above on my talk page when I'm not aware of ever having had any interaction with you before.
However, upon checking, I find that the quote relates to an edit summary. Edit summaries are relatively short fields and are intended to briefly explain an edit or the reason for an edit. This one was NOT addressed to anybody in particular and certainly NOT to you. You have obviously taken offence and for that I am truly sorry.
We do rely upon people reading the section they're actually editing. It's simply impractical to leave too many HTML notes and, in this case I don't think your mistake is either important enough or frequent enough to do so. Keep cool this weekend. --W. Franke-mailtalk 21:47, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
TT, this user is generally best ignored, as he likes to stir the pot. --Peter Talk 21:52, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Thank you both for your responses. Apology accepted, W.Frank. I'm well aware of what an edit summary is but when the summary directly refers to the previous user's work (in this case mine) then it is (IMO) directed at an individual. Anyway, enough said. Enjoy your respective weekends, Peter and W. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:57, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

"mL" is our standard abbreviation for millilitre(s)

to avoid a perceived confusion with the figure 1 (one) and the lower case l (el) - although I do appreciate it is less commonly seen in the UK.

This convention is according to Wikivoyage:Units#Fluid_volume where it states: "(In order to avoid confusion with the numeral 1 and letter l, L is always capitalized when used as an abbreviation for litre.)" -- 04:13, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for the clarification. After I reverted your edit, I went online and saw that either was considered acceptable so decided I wouldn't bother reacting further if it was changed back. Although the idea that an l could be mistaken for a 1 is a nonsense, "rules is rules", so I'll know to use the mL convention in future. Sorry for the misunderstanding ː-) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:00, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Admin Nomination

Hi Jamie!

I was just wondering whether you might appreciate an Admin nomination? You've contributed loads to the project and you're a very active editor, doing great work! What says you? :) --Nick talk 03:33, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi Nick ː-)
I wasn't aware that I'd contributed all that much to be honest, but I'm pleased that you think I haveǃ I think I would be interested in taking on the role of an admin. Since I've practically all but abandoned my Wikipedia account, this is the main Wiki site I come on and I think it's a worthwhile project. And a travel guide is a lot more fun to edit than a boring old encyclopaediaǃ
Just before I commit to anything, would you say that this page is a good summary of the responsibilities of an admin? If so, you can count me in.
I appreciate the recognition, by the way, not that I'm some kind of fame- and power-hungry narcissist ː-) Cheers --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:24, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
As far as I've seen, that guide sums up the responsibilities quite well, though I'm a bit of a rubbish admin! If that's ok, I'lll get nominating you now! --Nick talk 19:21, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Nomination up! Good luck! :) --Nick talk 19:55, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Ah wonderful, thanksǃ --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:56, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
There have been some concerns raised at the nomination; could you please respond to them at your earliest convenience? Thanks. --Rschen7754 07:33, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
Hi ThunderingTyphoons, I was just browsing through your edit history out of curiosity. Somehow I've never really come across any of your work and we haven't been in the same discussions, so I feel a bit unqualified to comment on your nomination. Just wanted to say great work on article content though! I hope people's questions will not lessen your enthusiasm. It's all in good faith. Nick has clearly seen a lot more of you than most others have, but his confidence alone says a lot. Cheers, JuliasTravels (talk) 10:32, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
Agreed. I can't speak for anyone else, but my feeling is that we just want to hear from you and have a chance to think about whatever you have to say.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:23, 15 January 2014 (UTC)


Your edit summary states "The long name (which btw is just "Republic of Azerbaijan") is not needed.", but the actual edit you've made restores the long name: [1]. I assume that was inadvertent and should be undone, or am I misunderstanding? -- Ryan • (talk) • 18:47, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Oh yes, you're completely rightǃ I've been away for a while and the joy I feel at being back must have made me temporarily colour blind. Thanks for the heads up, it's fixed now ː-) Best wishes, --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:13, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you!

Thank you for catching my error in editing... Matroc (talk) 06:19, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

No problem ː-) It was obviously just a mistake. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 07:23, 10 June 2014 (UTC)


I used to live in Sheffield and went to the same uni as you :) What is Tours like? I've been to places further south (Languedoc, Marseille and Montpellier so far). Crookesmoor (talk) 13:55, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Nice to see another Sheffield student on Wikivoyage :) Tours is lovely, very typically French in almost every way but also a bit off the typical tourist trail. I haven't actually been to any of the places you mentioned; do you recommend them? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:44, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

An award for you!

Barncompass.png The Wikivoyage Barncompass
Next to excellence is the appreciation of it. So here is your medal of appreciation. We need ten thousand thundering typhoons like you! Well done Jamie. Saqib (talk) 14:27, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
Thank you so much, Saqib, it's an honour! Best, Jamie (--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:42, 3 March 2015 (UTC))

Thank you

Hi Jamie!

After waking up from my very long hibernation, I was reading our United Kingdom article yesterday. I just wanted to congratulate on the fantastic lead paragraph you've written - it sounds very professional and I don't know how I'd better it.

I was also wondering whether you'd fancy another nomination to become an admin - I think you're a very worthy candidate. I know that last time I did it, the consensus was 'not yet', but now, with several years under your belt, I'd hope the outcome would be different!

Hope you're well!

Nick talk 22:44, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi Nick!
Nice to have you back from the land of the living to service the Wikigod anew.
Your praise means a lot, as does your belief in my admin worthiness. However, I'm content with what I do on the site now, which is not a lot of much importance that I enjoy all the same. At any rate, I doubt I involve myself enough in policy discussion to justify an admin nomination. And sometimes I write rude words in articles! So thanks ever so much for the offer, but no thanks.
With specific regard to leads and summaries, all too often they are just geographic descriptions lacking in anything to make you want to visit the place; and since I like being all hyperbolic and flowery it's a perfect distraction for me.
One more thing, if you ever feel like making page banners again, can I cheekily direct you toward here and here?
All the best,
Jamie :-)
(ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 02:28, 27 June 2015 (UTC), and all that jazz)
Nice work Jamie and welcome back Nick. --Saqib (talk) 05:41, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Bond, James Bond

Hi there. I don't think there's a copyright on using the name "James Bond" once in a book or website, as long as we don't print shirts with his name and try to sell them or something. Do you suppose Disney would go after us for mentioning Mickey Mouse in the Disney World article? (I didn't check whether he's mentioned or not, but it sure would be logical.) Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:13, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

You're probably right. I actually think the Martini 'joke' works better without namedropping Bond. For your interest, Mickey is mentioned by name 18 times in the Disney World article, so I should think we'd be fine :) Thanks, --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 02:17, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
I got a chuckle out of the number of times. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:24, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

United Kingdom

Hi, I really don't think that it's helpful to tell prospective tourists that all of the UK's cities are as "charming and inviting" as London. It's simply not factually correct, and reads like empty puffery. Many of the UK's cities don't have much to offer tourists. Regards, Nick-D (talk) 07:29, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, perhaps you're right about "charming and inviting", Nick, as well as suggesting everywhere is on an equal footing with London. Though merely leaving it as "interesting" isn't particularly accurate either. Your new edit is much better anyway.
But allow me to stick up for my country a bit. All the cities listed in the UK article have a hell of a lot to offer tourists, and the same goes for many which aren't listed. The ones which have little to offer (I would say the likes of Southampton, Milton Keynes and Preston) are in the minority. And I think we are absolutely here to sell the idea of travel to our readers, and for that we have to be positive about the places we're writing about. Thanks, Nick. Regards --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:34, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
No worries. I have to say that I'm influenced here by seeing some fairly dull UK cities! (Liverpool for instance). I have enjoyed my three trips to the UK though. Nick-D (talk) 11:01, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Next time you're over here, you must go to Liverpool again. I have family from there, and when I used to visit as a child, and even fairly recently (in the late 2000s) it was dull as dishwater, really grotty and deprived-looking. In the last five years, however, it really has changed for the better, it's a totally transformed city. My grandad is an 87-year-old Liverpudlian and says it's the best he's ever seen the city. Give our article a read if you like :) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:49, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I have heard it's improved greatly since I visited in 2006 - much of the city was a building site then, so the results would be interesting. Nick-D (talk) 23:21, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Lima metro

Sorry, I undid your Lima/Eastern Lima edit because I noticed our friend Turbo8000 had moved around districts and deleted the map unilaterally once more, and only by an undo could I get back there. I think the new text in 'Metro' is OK? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:55, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

No big deal :) I guess "Línea 1" can go too. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:57, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Oh, another thing. Does the map look okay to you? It looks wonky on my screen, specifically in the top left "Bay ecto ciales" are I assume fragments of placenames. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:59, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Patrolling etc

Hi, Jamie. I came across a new user's edit somewhere, and saw you had "fixed" it to meet our guidelines but didn't mark it as patrolled. I realized that option has never been turned on for you and I think that's an oversight on our side. I've asked Ryan (as a bureaucrat) to give you patrolling rights. I remember your admin nomination ended in a "not yet", a long time ago, because you were fairly new. You seem mostly interested in writing content (which is great!), but if you're also doing some patrolling these days, I could of course nominate you again, if you'd like. Thanks for you all your great work on content :-) JuliasTravels (talk) 15:26, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Many thanks, JuliasTravels, both for the patrolling rights and for the offer of a nomination. Regarding admin, that is not something which interests me at the moment, but never say never. Ask me again in two years' time :-) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:17, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Low cost, especially with respect to things that are not airlines

While I grant you that "low cost airlines" are arguably something that has a recognized definition (Though there are many airlines that intentionally blur that line) how exactly would you define the difference between a "low cost" bus operator from a "normal" bus operator? Arguably Megabus is "low cost" the same way Flixbus is (or both aren't). The low cost airline model (short turnarounds, pilots hired only after training, one model fleet, airports with low landing fees) is either not applicable to buses or practiced by both those companies. And frankly "low cost" already sounds touty when used for airlines (where I accept it as a somewhat meaningful term), it does not have any established meaning outside of that... Or am I missing something?

Kind regards. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:22, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Hi, Hobbitschuster. I think all of those points you've made are valid, except that Megabus is just known as a low-cost coach operator (in the UK, perhaps not elsewhere), which presumably must purely be based on the basic facilities (presumambly not as comfortable as National Express, etc...) and most importantly the very low fares; London to Paris can cost just £1.50, now if that's not low-cost, I don't know what is! --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:25, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
Well the general business model of all German bus operators is to be "low cost" to some degree or other. Because not undercutting Deutsche Bahn's price is an absolute no-sell. And on the few routes where the train is not much faster, there is so much competition, that only the cheap survive. And Flixbus is notorious for moving out of cities if/when the station access charges get too high. The symbolic one Euro tickets are unique to Megabus, true, but other operators do have "ten Euros anywhere" tickets... And they are much easier to get than Megabus' stuff... Maybe we can split the difference and say that Megabus markets itself as low cost and say how that manifests. (Though other bus operators - at least in Germany - also emphasize price in marketing...) Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:29, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
I can get on board with that, especially since you seem to know more about it than me. But the difference between transport in Britain (privatised semi free-for-all) and Germany (DB monopoly) are so great that any comparisons of what counts as low-cost in one country is not going to apply for the other. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:35, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
It's a bit more complicated than DB monopoly in Germany (regional trains are - at least in most cases - contracted out in open bidding, whereas long distance trains can be run by anybody but don't receive any subsidy), but on the whole you are right, that the transportation networks are very dissimilar. Interestingly the opening of the bus market (in 2012, another huge difference to Britain) reduced the amount of competition on rails as some companies that had been running long distance trains in competition with DB or were thinking about doing so got out of the market as buses undercut their prices. One operator said that their track access charges per seat were equal to the price the bus asked for a ticket. It's not hard to see how that tends to harm business. On the other hand the bus operators in Germany are if anything only just now entering profitable territory, which is most likely different in Britain. One British company (their brand in Germany was City2City, I think the name behind it was national something) got out of the market rather quickly, because this ruinous competition caught them off-guard. I'd wager that regardless of the mode (with the possible exception of air travel) getting from one end of Germany to the other is cheaper than the equivalent journey in Britain. I have thus far not taken Megabus, but my brother has and he says they only used one driver for a rather long journey, thus making a stop necessary. Most other operators in Germany have two drivers or a change en route... If this is a general thing with them, it might bare mention... Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:04, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
Just about everything transport-related is Britain is inferior to Germany - we have Deutshe Bahn too, but they call themselves something else and are run the local way (cram as many passengers in as few carriages as possible).
I haven't used Megabus either, nor its sister project Megatrain. Actually, I try to avoid coach travel where at all possible (you just can't beat chugging along in a train, even if it is overcrowded!), so my experience is limited to school trips and a Tours to Madrid overnighter with Alsa Internacional - they did pause to change drivers along the way, but only at Poitiers which was barely an hour into the journey, and the driver conformed to Spanish meal times, which led to plenty of rumbling stomachs and grumbling Frenchmen as 9PM came and went without a dinner stop. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:45, 6 June 2016 (UTC)--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:45, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
I have tried to avoid buses as well. They tend to be maddeningly slow. But in a place like Nicaragua "there is no alternative" to the bus. Unless you have your own car (or horse) and know how to drive (ride) along those roads... Though I have been on a couple of buses in Germany. I was quite impressed by that one Czech company on the Berlin-Dresden route, where the rail connection has literally seen better days (in the 1930s of all eras). Five Euros and airline style entertainment at your seat are hard to beat, but I doubt they made much money off of that... Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:02, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Urban Rail

Ah, sorry about the inline links. apologies. Nope this wasn't a copy paste. this was my own effortShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:49, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

No problem. What you wrote was a very good start, I hope to have simply built on it. As a heads up to yourself, I'm not really behind on the inclusion of the Glasgow Subway, but I'll raise that for discussion on the article's talk page. Have a good evening, --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:00, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

"hygge" and "Gemütlichkeit"

I have heard they are broadly similar, but apparently they are not the same and the German term is much less of a (political) philosophy than the Danish concept. But yes, "coziness" is the closest translation but it does not quite capture the meaning in either case. The word also appears in this rather quaint drinking song, which usually is really just the first part "Ein Prosit der Gemütlichkeit". Which by the way despite its modern day association with Bavaria was written in Saxony. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:11, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Ah, very interesting snippets of information! As I understand it, they're cosiness plus something harder to define, like communal enjoyment or something like that? The atmosphere of a decent English country pub would probably be similar, so it's surprising we don't have a specific word.
By the way, I'm rewriting the UK's appalling 'Get in by plane' section closely based on what's written on the Germany article, which I imagine you had a large hand in creating, so thanks for that. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:18, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
I can't talk for Denmark, but I guess that's a fair assessment for the German term. Also, objects can be "gemütlich" as well, but it goes beyond just "bequem" (comfortable) which can even have a negative connotation in some contexts. And you're welcome. Our get in sections are rather prominently placed in the articles but often look nothing like ready for prime-time with a lot of questionable and/or outdated information, so adding that information is very worthwhile. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:47, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
Mostly, the UK one suffers from being overlong and way too concerned with specific details of individual airports. I didn't even realise German words could have Qs in them! --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:52, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
Apart from some very specific exceptions (all of them foreign names and none of them common) a "q" in German is always accompanied by an "u" and the result sounds quite similar to "kw" or "kv" Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:11, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your work on United Kingdom

The article has much improved and as an added benefit it now only has 3% of "copied content" according to copyscape. It's always great to have local knowledge and well flowing prose. Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:39, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the support :-) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:42, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
You're welcome. Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:44, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
That copyscape wouldn't happen to say where the copied content is, would it? I'm assuming not, but... --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:45, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
It does, line by line. It has some false positives on individual lines, but overall it's pretty good. Just enter the relevant URLs here and you will see them compared side by side. Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:54, 6 January 2017 (UTC)


Given your recent edit to Brussels, I am not sure you are aware of our article on murals that needs some love. But maybe you were referring to something else. On the trail of Franco-Belgian comic artists perchance? Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:05, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Well, I was specifically referring to what I understand is a fairly extensive number of murals in Brussels inspired by Hergé's comics. At some point, I'll look into them and add them to the article (never been to Brussels, so would have to rely on the internet). I am also interested in street art as well, so may take a look at murals when I have the time. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:44, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
Ah, okay. That makes sense. Do you think comics in general or their Franco-Belgian variety in particular have enough travel relevance to be covered in a standalone travel topic here? Many of them do take place in fictional or fictionalized locations, but their creators often have left places to visit and those murals do seem interesting as well. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:41, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
Any topic can be found to have travel relevance, it's just a case of whether it's really worth spending any time on creating what will inevitably become another stub that nobody visits, when we have so many existing articles in such a bad state. So for now, I don't think comics should have their own article (and I have no intention of creating or working on one), but anything comic-related could be added to literary travel or, in the case of specific locations heavily connected to comics like Brussels, to destination articles. If and when there is enough comic content spread across the site, then it can be pooled into an article of its own. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 00:45, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
That makes sense. Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:53, 8 January 2017 (UTC)


Thanks for your welcome - yes, the username is Anglo-Saxon for "the people of Somerset" - though I currently live in Worcestershire! Sumorsǣte (talk) 17:34, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

It was my pleasure, and thank you for answering. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:03, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

your sandbox

just helping out. I think medieval was misspelled. --Garvysolaz (talk) 21:39, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Bonjour, Garvysolaz :-) Thanks for your help, and welcome to Wikivoyage! Just to let you know what I'm doing, I'm merging the regions per the discussion at the bottom of Talk:France. Until the new region pages are finished, everything is and should remain in my userspace, so while I appreciate your creation of Grand-Est, it is premature by a couple of weeks. For now, I've put in a redirect to Northeastern France. But if you have anything you'd like to add to any of the three completed regions (those marked with Yes Done), you can go ahead. Best wishes, --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:04, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Map for France

Hi there,

I see you are still working on reorganising the regions of France. It looks like a lot of work, so good luck with that!

Anyway, I modified the map a while ago according to your proposal, but so far it's only in SVG version. This is so that if there are any changes, I don't have to keep on re-uploading both formats. For the final version however, we should probably use a jpg or png, so whenever you are ready or close to ready for the switch to the new regions, do ping me and I'll upload that version as well. (I'm a bit scared I might miss it if it's on the Talk:France page.) Also if you want me to make any more changes, you can also ping me anytime.

Drat70 (talk) 00:57, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

@Drat70: Thanks very much for your advice and help so far; I'll be sure to let you know when everything's ready to go.
There is actually one thing I was meaning to ask you a bit later in the process, but now is as good a time as any. When making the region list, each region obviously requires a colour. Currently, I have no way of knowing which exact colours you used in the map, so figuring out which code to use in the template is nigh on impossible. Am I just being thick, or is this something you could look at and implement? You're welcome to edit my sandbox for that purpose. Remember there's no great rush, --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:03, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
The colours are from the standard template for region maps (File:Regions_map_template.svg), unfortunately there seems to be no list with the corresponding colour codes. I added the right colours now in your sandbox. I made a minor change to the map and gave Corsica a different colour. As there are 13 regions here, but only 11 colours in the template, I also had to make up two new colours, I hope it doesn't look too ugly. Drat70 (talk) 03:48, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, that looks good. In all this time on Wikivoyage, I've never noticed the colours were standardised. Merci encore, --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:49, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Edit deleted

Hello ThunderingTyphoons!

I made edits on visiting Turkey ( I added common flight search engines but I see that you have deleted them since it contained web site of a commercial company. Could you please let me understand better how my edit was different than below information (this is also in the same page). Just want to now better, and contribute better.

Thank you in advance.

You can also use the following search engines to find long distance buses. The majority of the big companies are covered:

Best Zeynep

Merhaba, Zeynep. You are right; there is no difference between your edits and the links to bus search engines, which are also against policy. I have now deleted them. Sometimes undesirable edits go unnoticed until someone brings attention to them, so thank you for that :)
The common theme between the flight and bus search engines is that they are not primary sources. We can and do link to the websites of airlines and bus companies, when those companies sell tickets direct to their passengers, but we do not link to third party resellers or comparison sites. Check out What not to link to for a fuller explanation of this.
Thank you for taking the time to understand and work with our policies; it is really appreciated. Best wishes, Jamie (ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:52, 12 October 2017 (UTC))

Merhaba ThunderingTyphoons! , =) Thank you very much for the clarification. I really appreciate your time and effort.

Bir şey değil :) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:52, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Pakistani big banners

Thanks for stepping in, TT. Dealing with this kind of new/fast users is never very comfortable to me. I tend to approach such situations lightly, not wanting to "scare new Wikivoyagers", and to get lenient. You did right. Thumbs up Ibaman (talk) 16:36, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words, Ibaman. The banners themselves were quite nice; I hope the user is able to modify them to the correct standard. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:57, 20 October 2017 (UTC)


Yes, it's true that "coach" can refer to a bus in the U.S., but it's a fancy term, and at least my impression is that the default meaning for "coach" in the U.S., when it's not referring to a class of airline seat, is a train car. So yeah, I think that the entry in English language varieties is helpful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:01, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Hi! Thanks for letting me know. Would people in the U.S. use or understand either one of "economy (class)" or "standard class" when referring to air / rail / boat (etc.) travel? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:09, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Economy (class), yes. I'm not sure whether "standard class" would refer to 2nd class or 1st class. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:11, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Standard class is just a synonym of economy / 2nd class. Maybe worth mentioning in the article. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:26, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Agreed, since I didn't know what it meant. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:13, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
I know "coach" as a job title for a sports trainer, sometimes spoken with more reverence than "professor". I always find its usages for buses supremely weird. On another note, the cheapest class on flights in particular but sometimes also on trains is sometimes semi-jokingly referred to as "Holzklasse" or wood class in German. Does any English dialect know a similar term? Hobbitschuster (talk) 06:21, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
@Hobbitschuster: The word coach comes from the days of the stagecoach, and the Wiktionary etymology is interesting. It certainly predates (ommi)bus by several centuries. If "wood class" is referring to the passengers being transported like they were pieces of wood rather than people, the English equivalent is "cattle class". If the meaning is different, then I can't think of an equivalent. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:38, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
No the word "Holzklasse" refers to way back when, when the cheapest seats were just bare wood with no upholstery whatsoever. Maybe we should be glad the term doesn't exist in English or there'd be an airline trying to rip out even bigger parts of what one would consider seats, to limit soft surfaces to what the passenger brings. After all, bare plastic is easier to clean... Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:06, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
The next Ryanair cut back will be to remove all seating. Passengers may sit on the floor or on top of their (20 kg limit) hand luggage. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:20, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
Well apparently there are regulations requiring everyone to have a seat. Ryanair did talk out loud about "standing seats", though... Otherwise some airline might make planes into flying capsule hotels and charge a premium for this new "sleeper class" Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:33, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

An award for you! 2

Barncompass.png The Wikivoyage Barncompass
For being willing and able to change your mind, and for having the courage to say so. Happy and successful communities depend upon people like you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:29, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
What a surprise! Thank you very much :-) ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:10, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you 2

Just wanted to say thank you for correcting my edit.

I had not properly read the guidelines for editing wikivoyage compared to wikipedia (just discovered wikivoyage yesterday!) and pointing me to the correct point was very helpful. According to the guidelines it would be appropriate to link to the official tourist website for the location (York), could we perhaps add the trails/itinerary section under ghost walks but link to the visityork website instead as I am sure they have them also. Just trying to add something useful to the user; alternatively, you could link to website as they produce trails to purchase for York and other cities, which I think also fits the guidelines.


Hi, 2a02:c7d:4b01:9100:21bf:9520:b274:767 welcome to Wikivoyage and thanks for being willing to adapt to our policies.
The official York tourism website is already linked, right at the top of the page. We can link to it more than once, but generally it's best to limit the number of external links.
We generally only link to things which add value to the traveller's experience beyond what is written in our articles. The ghost walks definitely count as this, because they're led by a guide who tells spooky stories in a charismatic way, and probably has some kind of costume or other gimmick that tourists like! Following that criteria, you could definitely have a listing for Treasure Trails, with a link to the website and information on pricing.
On the other hand, I'm not convinced there's great value in linking to pages about self-guided walks around the city, as we can and should include all that information on Wikivoyage. If you know of a good walking itinerary around York, please do add information about it, including a description of the route, the main sights along the way and a rough idea of how far it is. An external link to a route map might be helpful, but would not be essential.
Hope this all makes sense; let me know if not. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:36, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Sheffield 2

Nice work! Ground Zero (talk) 06:20, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you :) ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:50, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

What Ambiguity (Addressing Yet again)

Updated listing for Rickmansworth Station - What ambiguity? There's only one Station Approach at WD3 1QY The ambiguity that under some SatNav and mapping systems postcode is not adequate and can take you to places up to 8 miles away without reporting any error. This was discussed several months ago and I was then told that I should add that comment and leave the town name included.

If that consensus has changed then let me know now and I'll spend my time on projects other than WikiVoyage. I was angered about it then, got it resolved and now that decision seems to have changed again.

It looking at street name and postcode you have completely missed the issues on some SatNav and mapping systems.

As I said back then, I am not prepared to spend my time and effort in what my experience has shown is a flawed and limited addressing system. On other software I have spent far too long helping resolve issues caused by address abbreviation and I'm not going to spend my time arguing with people who have not had that experience and so are unaware of the limitations of software systems. WikiVoyage is used by far more than "the human eye"

So I need an answer before I continue to spend my time on WikiVoyage. And if the previous decision has changed, glad I found only a day into restarting contributing PsamatheM (talk) 13:32, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Hi, and welcome back. First of all, I am sorry that this has angered you. That wasn't my intention. It is also not my intention to argue with or berate anyone.
I wasn't aware of the previous discussion, or if I once was, I have since forgotten. You wouldn't happen to have a link to it, would you? If there was, as you say, a decision made and consensus reached, then my edits may well be in the wrong. To my knowledge, there has been no additional decision made in your absence.
Please bear in mind that whatever consensus may have been reached in that discussion, adding the town name is still an exception to the rule that we generally don't do. You can't and shouldn't expect everyone to have a months-old discussion at the forefront of their minds when editing, when the results of that discussion haven't been written into policy. Most editors will implement the standard policy, which by the way still reads: "Do not include the city (if the same as the page title), the state/province or postal code (except for addresses in the United Kingdom, which should include the post code." This is what my edit was based on, and nothing more. If there has been a policy change, the wording on that page is outdated, and should be changed.
But as I said, if you could link to the discussion you referred to, that would help clear things up. Primarily, it would be helpful to know exactly under what circumstances it is acceptable to ignore standard policy and add the town name, and when we should still adhere to policy.
Finally, I had noticed you were back editing, and was going to leave you a "welcome back" message on your talk page! Obviously events have overtaken that, but I still want to thank you for coming back after a lengthy absence, and hope you decide to stay.
Best wishes, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:13, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
I don't have a link to the old discussions. I had explained how whilst for the Royal Mail postcode is moderately explicit, some SatNavs and some mapping system seem to use postcode as well as other address elements with differing priorities that neither I (nor anybody else I've worked with on this) understand. But the results can be horrible. This was brought home to me yesterday when I had to attend an appointment somewhere new 10 miles away so put the address into a mapping system to find the way and instead of the Norfolk town 10 miles away it mapped to somewhere in Sevenoaks, Kent - and it had the correct postcode. Same address in another mapping system and it worked fine. The issues come with address abbreviation. I've spent many hours helping a major software company sort out such issues with their own multi-platform commercial Calendar software (issues with event location and display of maps of event location).
For me one of the great strengths of WikiVoyage is that it goes far beyond human eye reading a web page (e.g. offline use in apps e.g. PocketEarth on iOS, etc.). And then you are into semi-automated use of addresses in non-WV systems (without that human eye remembering the section/page title).
So for me, if I am going to spend my time and effort adding data to a resource I need to know that my contribution will be worthwhile and applicable to all uses of the data and not potentially misdirect people when used in non-WV software. If others chose to add partial entries then adding a partial entry is better than no entry and everybody contributes what they can (as time and knowledge permit).
I've not re-itterated all aspects to the importance of a full address here, just pointing out a few of the reasons raised to highlight that there are good arguments. Plus, in many cases where I've put in the town/village I've actually shortened the entry overall anyway (Avenue -> Av, Monday -> M, Tuesday -> Tu, etc., etc.)
So after discussion in public areas on WV (I don't know of any non-public communications anyway) it was decided/I was told to add the comment Town needed in address to avoid ambiguity (with the comment prefix/postfix) and people would then not edit out the town. PsamatheM (talk) 15:39, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
Sure, that all makes sense. Thank you for taking the trouble to explain. I understand the background issues better now.
So, is your default editing style to always include the town name, or are there times when it's sufficiently unambiguous? I ask, because depending on your answer, my response is going to be very different.
(1) If you basically think the peculiarities of different external software are always going to require the town name to be used, then there should be a discussion arguing for a change in policy across the board, so Wikivoyage can accommodate the different software. Not only that, I hope you'll agree that one editor following a different formatting style to everyone else is not helpful for the site overall. If there is a problem with our current listings policy, you either need to make the case for it to be changed, or (to put it bluntly) conform to the existing policy.
(2) On the other hand, if you're only adding the town name to certain listings with addresses / postcodes that you know to be problematic for external software, then the existing arrangement with you adding an explanatory comment is enough for me to say "Sorry. My mistake. As you were." I would take no issue with you adding town names to certain cases where there is ambiguity, but you will have to accept that other editors who don't know about this arrangement will probably react the same way I have today, so you should unfortunately be prepared to repeat yourself again, and again...
Do you see the distinction I'm making here? Not sure I've explained it all that well.
The above should not be seen as me laying down the law. It's just my opinion as an editor with no more authority than you. But if your answer is closer to (1) than (2), then I strongly recommend arguing for a change in policy, which you would do here. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:43, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
The difficulty is that there are many different mapping and SatNav systems and software and they are periodically updated and previous fixes can occasionally revert, etc. So testing each address on the many variants now and in the future would mean each listing would take many hours of work to ensure that whatever navigation system you were using took you to the establishment and not many miles away. Plus, there is one fairly mainstream software provider who will routinely remove the last part of a postcode entered (i.e. enter AB1 2CD and they will process that to be just AB1) - although their own apps hav mostly been fixed, their internal APIs used by other apps often have not!
So generally I include the town as a precaution so it will work even when some mainstream software/hardware company decides to remove the last part of the postcode. My argument is that including the town does not add that much to the length (page inches) of the listing compared to the grief that omitting it can risk cause for users. Plus those "column inches" can often be recovered by Avenue -> Av, Monday -> M, etc.
I don't spend my time trawling through existing listings doing no more than adding the town. But when I'm working on a page (most of my effort I put in to "Outline" pages trying to get them to "usable") then I might update existing listings to include the town whilst verifying and updating other aspects of the listing (e.g. Monday -> M, etc.). But it's not a personal project to add the town to all WV listings. What is, is and update only as and when things need to be added to/updated.
(I should add a personal note that I'm not as I might be coming across in that I don't expect every detail on WV to be exactly how I want it. My personal preference would be e.g. for UK phone numbers for the last 6 digits to be formatted as 2 groups of 3 digits as I find that easier - but it's not such a big deal and I'm happy that the format has already been established. I make a big deal of the addresses because of the grief and time I've spent outside WV with these issues)
Above is talking about UK. However similar problems can exist in other countries and do not depend on postcode area e.g. France where a city is close to a postcode border and you have e.g. Pl de l'eglise (sic) or one of the very common street names used in France.
I could change the comment to e.g. "Town deliberately included as per previous discussions too lengthy to detail here". When previously discussed those discussing were resistant to a formal change of policy and decided the comment route was the best way forward (maybe because only a few joined in the discussion) PsamatheM (talk) 17:29, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
"Those discussing were resistant to a formal change of policy" - Sadly, that is often the way with these things. Even for myself, I see obvious merit in adding the town name where there is an issue, but changing policy due to someone else's problem (the someone else being the other software) seems like a big step.
However, I accept that it's something you're only doing on an 'as and when' basis, and don't really want to make a fuss :-)
Actually, sometimes I add the postcode to French listings as well, at least when a listing is in a different commune to the main city. Because the postcode comes before the town name, rather than after it as in the UK, they nearly always seem to show up on sat navs and route planners, even though they're ultimately far less useful than UK codes for actually finding an address. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:10, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
The example (screen capture) I mentioned from an appointment the other day (though I've masked out the name, phone no and web site of the provider) <> (not enough of an issue to bother uploading/clogging up WikiCommons and I know such external links break policy but given personal page if you want to see the example delete the link afterwards if you want). PsamatheM (talk) 09:58, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

France region maps

Hi, thanks for the kind words on the region maps. You did a fantastic job too putting the new region pages together. -Shaundd (talk) 07:57, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Oakland vs Auckland

Here's the article on that incident [2] where someone actually ended up in the wrong city. It's been a long time, but it actually happened before. The dog2 (talk) 16:10, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Oh my! I think my favourite line is "Then, shortly after takeoff, Lewis heard a word that did not sound anything like Oakland: Tahiti." The penny drop moment. Thanks, mate, that was worth a few laughs :) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:45, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Edit Revert

Hello. You reverted my edit on Mars disambiguation page, but you didn't leave a reason why. Can you explain? Thanks. CommanderOzEvolved (talk) 23:26, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

I am sorry, it's a case of mistaken identity. I took you for this extremely persistent vandal. Please accept my sincere apologies; I will reinstate your edit immediately. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:30, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
It's alright. Humans are not perfect after all. CommanderOzEvolved (talk) 23:34, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
Indeed not. Welcome to Wikivoyage! --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:38, 4 December 2017 (UTC)


Special:Diff/3342012/3342023 seems to modify LGBT travel#Same-sex marriage to list Netherlands twice - once in the list of countries which allow marriage nationwide, then again in the list of countries which allow it only in certain provinces or territories, ie: "the Netherlands (except Aruba, Curaçao, Sint Maarten)". That leaves the article in a contradictory state. Which is correct? K7L (talk) 02:56, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

The original wording was right. Sorry about that, and thank you for being on the ball. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:46, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Semi-competent Wikivoyager requesting technical assistance.

Swept in from the pub

Hi, all. Earlier on, while editing, I must have pressed some button or other, either on my keyboard or on the WV interface itself. Not a great help to you, I know. But now every time I try to type some fairly common symbols into the source editing window, for instance asterisks * to create bullet points, those square bracket things [[ to make hyperlinks, the funky wavy brackets {{ for inserting templates, equals signs === for section headings etc, some other nonsense symbols appear instead. My colons ː are also all really faint now as well, which is oddly emasculating. So without waffling on too long, does anyone know what I'm talking about? Has anyone done this before, and if so, do you know how to fix it? This is only a problem on Wikivoyage; Wikipedia etc are still working as normal. Would anyone be super-kind and help me? ː-) faint smiley --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:22, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Pub help 2017-10-09.png
ThunderingTyphoons! - This sounds similar to something that happens to me from time to time. Try this. Hover over the text editing screen and then click on it. You should see a small keyboard icon at the bottom right corner, as depicted in the screenshot at right. Click on it, and make sure "Use native keyboard" is selected. If it happens again, just press Ctrl+M and all should be well. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:28, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
Thank you, Andrew, that's solved the issue. Can see how it would be easy enough to switch keyboards without realising. Thanks again, --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:30, 10 October 2017 (UTC)


ThunderingTyphoons!, the last time you were nominated for admin, 4 years ago, some Wikivoyagers felt like maybe you should spend more time as a user. You have, and have participated in many aspects of this site. Would you accept another nomination now? I'd be surprised if this one were controversial at all. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:58, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

TT isn't an admin? That's rediculous. He/she should definitely be an admin. Thanks for picking up this, Ikan. Ground Zero (talk) 11:13, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for both of your kind words. I have been historically reluctant to be an admin, but wouldn't mind accepting the responsibilities now. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:35, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
Cool. I'll put up a nomination tomorrow if someone else doesn't beat me to it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:10, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
The nom is up at Wikivoyage:Administrator nominations. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:29, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
You are now an admin. You have some additional tools, such as the ability to rollback a series of edits and the ability to block users from posting. If you'd like any advice about anything, feel free to post to the user talk page of any other admin. Congratulations, and thanks for being willing to help with these tasks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:00, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
You bet I'll be asking for advice over the next few months. Thanks a lot, Ikan. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:25, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
Thank you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:50, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
Actually "rollback" is something you get as (whatever my status is); not only as an admin... Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:47, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
I imagine you're a patroller. That's when I first got rollback rights. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:27, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, that. Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:50, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Didn't know that you were nominated recently. I would've supported wholeheartedly. Anyway, congrats ThunderingTyphoons! Gizza (roam) 22:46, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, Gizza :) I appreciate the gesture --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:09, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Euro City Express

The train is treated as its own category (though in the same fare category as the ICE; and different from EC and IC) by Deutsche Bahn only. The rolling stock is Swiss and it obviously has intermediate stops in Germany and Switzerland, but it is the only daytime train that goes directly from Germany to Italy. I think it should not be subsumed into the ICE paragraph as it is visibly a different rolling stock with a different design. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:04, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for getting in touch. I was just about to flag this as a topic on the article's talk page, to stop it just being lost in the edit history and potentially disappearing unnoticed.
By all means reinstate it as a separate point, but it struck me that the original paragraph was not very informative (for the average traveller, as opposed to a railfan) for the amount of space it took up. At the very least it needs a link to the official place you buy tickets from. It would be better if there were also a "Cities served: x, y and z" sentence, in line with the other bullets in the same list, or anything that mentions the major intermediate stops. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:17, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
Unfortunately information is more common to find in German than English, but DB has this. IIRC you can get tickets at and whatever the Italian website is... Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:22, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
Interesting choice to use Italian on the route map... So they don't have their own website? May as well use the German one unless there's better English-language content offered elsewhere. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:25, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
The Italian railways does have a website, I just checked, at you can get the ticket from Frankfurt to Milan (remember, one daily departure per direction only; it is almost Amtrakian) but there is no dedicated website for that specific train service. And given that it has only been introduced with the last schedule change, I am pretty sure they are monitoring pretty closely whether it is successful before either adding more departures or withdrawing service... Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:29, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
Probably just testing the waters, that's right. It's also a very specific route, not linking two capitals (although they are both the financial centres of their respective country) and it's quite a long way with only intermittent high-speed lines and (I guess) quite a bit of mountain slowness. Bear in mind that none of the Eurostar routes except to Brussels and Paris run more than once a day, and some only run once a week! --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:06, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Double signature

This is an experiment. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:11, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

This is also an experiment. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:12, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

As is this. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:13, 27 January 2018 (UTC)


Considering the complete lack of information on how to actually attend the islands independently I don't see how that number should be removed.

Certainly it's possible to attend the islands without a professional tour guide because you can pay anyone any amount to take you anywhere, including probably you could pay enough for them to land on the island and presumably there's someone who would take millions for you to illegally kidnap a proboscis monkey.

But since there's no way to get a boat without randomly shouting down people and offering money, no method I discovered or is on the wiki page, it seems reasonable to have some method avaliable. Remove it once there's an alternative method.

I only added information that I would find useful when I read it, I also think your removal of the dates of the prices is dumb and I hate how out of date every Wikipage article is and with no indication of when the prices were found there's simply no way you can tell if you are being ripped off or of it has been twenty years since the article was updated. RMcD (talk) 03:15, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

@RMcD: You make a good argument. I'll reinsert Mukani's number in a way that doesn't sound like the article is touting for customers, and write that travellers could also ask any local with a boat to take them.
Wikivoyage listings have a 'last updated' marker, so for most prices it should be clear if they're current or not, but in this case the listing template hasn't been used.
Overall, my edit took out too much information, that I'll be happy to reinstate. I apologise if I've soured your view of Wikivoyage or irritated you in any way; that wasn't my intention. Feel free to add more info to the article, or any other destination you know about, but please take a quick look at WV:Tone first, so you know what style of writing to aim for. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:46, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
Consider it Yes Done. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:55, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, yes I will do in future. I was obviously in the wrong to use the first person view. I also agree that I would not want to read a sales pitch so if it sounded like that you were right to edit it.

The last updated marker is usually not correlated with all of the prices (even brackets with a year around each price would be good) on the page often an update can just be a few sentences and I think most people don't even know to check the edit history, I didn't until I started trying to edit that article then I noticed your change. It's been a long time since I've edited wikis, and certainly the first time I have ever attempted it from my phone. My edit definitely wasn't proof read or anything more than a quick off the cuff decision since the article lacked the whole island

Don't worry about any souring someone needs to keep the standards of a sight in check. I appreciate your efforts


Thank you! Much obliged. Green Giant (talk) 19:16, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

No problem. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:38, 1 February 2018 (UTC)



I did some work on Cornwall and I noticed that St. Michael's Mount does not have a page. However the very similar Mont Saint-Michel (basically the same thing but slightly larger and in France) does have an article. I don't rightly know if it ought to have an article or not.

It is a small island, with causeway (tidal) and boat ferries to it in summer, it is mostly a national trust property but there are some other buildings and gift shops by the harbour on the island. It is not designated as a village or anything, but is undoubted as one of the most well known places to see in Cornwall. See w:en:St Michael's Mount.

It is also home to billions of bilious blue blistering barnacles which cover the rocks around it :P

Some advice on this would be good.

Sir John Hawkins (talk) 13:09, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Not answered because user has been globally blocked. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:46, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Black Death

With regards to your edit on Europe, apparently for quite some time there was considerable debate as to whether Yersinia Pestis actually did cause the Black Death. There seems to be now a preponderance of opinions in favor of this explanation but I think using "Black Death" without going into biological details too much avoids this discussion which is really of no relevance in a travel guide. Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:02, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Equally, just avoiding the discussion and keeping within historical consensus by explaining it as bubonic plague is an acceptable solution! But as you wish, --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:44, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
Also, 4 messages in one day. I feel popular :) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:45, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
Well it's really a minor point and I think it's fine either way. Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:19, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
Then we're of the same opinion.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:10, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

What did I do?

I have only just logged into wikivoyage and I have an email from you, telling me not to disrupt wiki or something. I havent edited anything except my grandads wikipedia page?

Can you explain? Olliejdean (talk) 10:57, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

@Olliejdean: Click here to see your Wikivoyage edit history. My message was in response to that. If you're saying that wasn't you, then I echo User:Ground Zero's message on your user talk page, and urge you to change your password, as it looks like someone else has access to your account. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:14, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks 2

Let me add my congratulations and thanks on your 10,000th edit, including, especially, the very important vandalism reversions. Cheers, Ground Zero (talk) 00:03, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Thank you very much :-) Happy St David's Day, too. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 00:05, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
Dydd Gŵyl Dewi Hapus! Ground Zero (talk) 01:46, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
Diolch yn fawr. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:49, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Note on my talk at Wikitravel

Passing along the word, in case you didn't see:

While I'm not going to tell you what to do or not do, I am wondering how effective this tactic is. —Justin (koavf)TCM 05:30, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

it could just as well be someone claiming to be somebody who he or she isn't Hobbitschuster (talk) 07:43, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
What the hell? This is insane. I joined Wikivoyage after the fork, and have no stake in the dispute. The only time I've ever been on Wikitravel is to compare our articles' content / wording to theirs. I have never edited there, and I think my own editing record on WV should show that I'm not a troublemaker who likes to stir the pot. In fact, short of picking a Wikivoyager to impersonate at random, the only reason I can see for anyone at Wikitravel to know anything about me, to have access to my username or my Wikimedia account (???) is due to my nomination a few days ago to ban a user who was suspected of being a troll sent by the company who own WT to stir shit up here.
Justin, if you can be bothered, please inform "IBobi" (why is he blocked from editing Wikivoyage anyway?) that I have no interest in what goes on over at Wikitravel, that the person calling themselves 'TT' is not me, and that before he starts making veiled legal threats he'd better have some damn proof of identity. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:27, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
To be honest, the edit IBobi complained about sounds like Spendrup's m.o. Which would however at least open the possibility we might've unfairly blamed IB for a vandal who did not in fact take their pay. But I am not ruling anything out at this point in time... Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:24, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
It doesn't really matter whether Sprendrups was sponsored by them or not. S was disrupting our site, so we blocked them, and now S, IBobi or somebody else has tried to play the two communities against one another with this rubbish. I'd say the best thing to do is carry on as normal; ignore WT, deal with vandals and troublemakers who come our way, and get on with building a decent community travel guide. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:42, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
No problem, 'phoon. Thanks —Justin (koavf)TCM 16:00, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
Cheers, mate. I appreciate that :-) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:43, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Your S-Bahn question

Please have a look here Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:22, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Answered... with pith :) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:37, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Is it how I can/should communicate with you?

Hi there I got your message asking me to get back to you about the listings I've deleted. Is this how/where I should answer you? If not, please let me know where If yes, to answer your question, yes I deleted those entries because the places don't exist anymore. This morning I actually learned about the possibility to add a note about removals (through the tips for new contributors page), but both before and after your message I still can't understand where exactly I should do so. Could you please guide me? Thanks —The preceding comment was added by ExploreFeelGood (talkcontribs)

Hiya! Yes, you can contact any other user via their talk page in this way. You can also reply to messages on your own talk page, just by clicking the 'Edit' button at the top. The only other thing to remember to do is to sign your own posts on your own and other talk pages. You can do this by typing four tildes in a row, i.e. ~~~~. These turn into a signature and timestamp when you click 'Publish changes'.
To answer your other question about edit summaries:
  • If you're editing on desktop, scroll down past the main edit window. There is a little white box that says "Summary"; you can type up to 1000 characters in there, but most often people just leave a couple of words or a short sentence explaining what they've done in the edit.
  • If you're editing on mobile, after clicking 'Next' you get prompted by the question "How did you improve the page"; you can type your edit summary in the box below.
BTW, edit summaries aren't compulsory, and for minor edits I normally don't bother. It's just polite to let other editors know what you're doing when there's a bigger change to the article.
I hope all of this makes sense; please let me know if it doesn't or if you need any other help. Thanks for getting back to me so quickly! ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:18, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi again, thanks for the fast answer OK below I'm trying to sign my msg, let's see if I got it For the Summary I made a test right now, clicking on "Edit source" on budget restaurants, and in summary I see /* Budget*/ So, if I want to add a comment, I replace that by my message, or add it after it? And I should do the ~~~~ or it will automatically be signed? And yes it makes sense no worries ExploreFeelGood (talk) 12:25, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

The signature worked perfectly. Normally, you'd add the summary after /* Budget*/. You don't need to sign, as every edit is automatically linked to the person who makes them. See this for instance: Vientiane edit history. Happy editing, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:55, 28 March 2018 (UTC)


'Recently' (i.e 31/03/2018) I ran a search, about 2100 articles use recently:-

You've probably noticed I've tried to reword some UK articles more intelligently, but would appreciate some feedback. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:11, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Sure. Do you just want me to look over your edits? ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:03, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
Yes please. Hope the search link is useful to. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:09, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
I've looked at every recently you removed, and not one of them was justified in being there. You're doing a good job. Happy Mars day :P --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 00:03, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

April fool

ah, you spotted it. :-) --Traveler100 (talk) 18:00, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

You almost got me, though! I was on the verge of saying "move this to the policy discussion page, and by the way I'll be against it" when I realised. We would need a long team-building trip to recover from that argument! --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:05, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Ten thousand thundering typhoons!

Swept in from the pub

I've just made my 10,000th edit on Wikivoyage. Yay! On the downside, the edit in question was undoing vandalism to my own userpage. Bloody typical...

Very quickly, I just want to thank everyone who makes Wikivoyage an awesome place to be. I certainly wouldn't have got even to my 1000th edit if it weren't for the wonderful community of talented, kind and good-humoured editors we have here. Thanks everyone, u iz da best! --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:06, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Good job, Frank! 2600:387:8:9:0:0:0:90 19:22, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
Congratulations. I agree with you that the community here is what makes Wikivoyage an awesome place to be. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:10, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
Congratulations, and here's to the next 10,000! -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:35, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Congratulations from my part, too! Very glad to have you aboard! Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:34, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Hey, congrats TT! ϒpsilon (talk) 19:37, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
It's unanymous. Mega cheers! Ibaman (talk) 19:55, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
Congrats! Here is how to reach 15000 in a few months: :-) Syced (talk) 08:24, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Un tacos vs. los tacos

Hey, Thanks for your improvements to my little tacos screed. There's one little thing though: the point of mentioning that the people who sell them use it as a singular word is meant to give you an idea of how different it is from actual (plural) tacos. If you can think of a nice way to get that across great! Otherwise maybe it's best just to remove it. -- Mark (talk) 19:06, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

I think the guy who invented it really didn't understand that it's plural in Spanish -- Mark (talk) 19:07, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
We can put the Spanish back in if you want. For me, I just wanted to keep it simple for what we have to assume is a largely monolingual English readership. But if you think the point is clearer how it was, by all means reinstate it. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:39, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Recreated articles

From Libertarianmoderate-

Yes, I will expand the empty articles over the next few weeks. I just haven't gotten around to it yet. —The preceding comment was added by Libertarianmoderate (talkcontribs)

@Libertarianmoderate: Thanks for your reply! I'll look forward to seeing your work in the near future.

By the way, can you please remember to sign your talk page messages? This helps us to identify each other. In this day and age, there should really be some automatic signature function, but unfortunately there isn't and it's a pain. You can sign either by typing four tildes in a row ~~~~ (on mobile and desktop) or by clicking on the 'signature and timestamp' button at the top left of the edit window (desktop only).

Best wishes, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:16, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Region map changes

From Libertarianmoderate, Libertarianmoderate

I was wondering if I could get your help on something. Iraq and Syria have undergone massive territorial changes in recent years that have made our region maps of them outdated. For Syria, I believe that we need to divide up the Syrian Desert region into two new zones: Syrian Kurdistan/Rojava, and the Southeastern Desert, as the experience for any suicidally-brave travelers in the two areas would be wildly different, as one is under a Kurdish-dominated democracy and the other is increasingly under the control of the Assad Regime.

For Iraq, similar changes need to be made. I think that the Iraqi Desert region should include Ramadi, as it is the capital of Al-Anbar Governorate. When it comes to Iraqi Kurdistan, Kirkuk is no longer under Kurdish control, so it should not be included in the Iraqi Kurdistan region on the map.

As for the name "Al-Jazira", I believe it does not accurately describe the area. In antiquity, the area was part of Assyria, a name more people would easily recognize than "Al-Jazira". I think that part should be renamed to "Assyria," as most historical sites there (such as Nineveh in Mosul) are Assyrian.

Southern Iraq, referred to as "Lower Mesopotamia" by the region map, actually represents the nerve center of historical Mesopotamian civilizations, not just a "lower" part. For this reason, I believe it should be renamed to simply "Mesopotamia."

Western Sahara also needs a region map, given that it's divided in two (also, that situation is unlikely to change in the near future). The east is controlled by the Polisario Front, so we should refer to it as the Sahrawi Arab Dem. Republic, and the West as "Moroccan Western Sahara"

Yemen, on the other hand, is far more complicated than Iraq and Syria. While a redrawing is warranted, it would be impractical to attempt now.

What do you think about this? Do you know who originally made those maps, so I can ask them to redraw them?

Also, I did the "nowiki" thing you said to do. Did that add the info you wanted?

Hi again, User:Libertarianmoderate. Firstly, the "nowiki" is a just a bit of HTML to show you what four tildes in a row looks like; if I typed them without using nowiki, they would automatically turn into my signature, so the demonstration wouldn't have worked. The nowiki template is a handy tag that stops wikicode being generated. To sign your name, all you need to is type four tildes (this is a tilde! --> ~ <-- it shares the hash # key on my laptop) in a row at the end of your message; if you type the nowiki, then your signature won't appear! Does this make sense?
Secondly, yes I do know who created those maps. If you go to Iraqi regions map and Map of Syria, and scroll down the page you can see the authors credited in the summary. This is the same for all maps and images on Wikivoyage, and indeed on every Wikimedia site like Wikipedia. The author(s) will always be credited, along with information about the image's publication date, copyright status etc.
Out of the maps' creators, only User:Globe-trotter is still active on Wikivoyage, so as a first port of call you might want to drop them a message. Alternatively, you could ask one (or each, one by one!) of the members of the Map Expedition. One of them should be able to help you.
Failing all that, you can't go wrong with posting in the Travellers' pub for help.
I'm afraid I don't have the graphics skills to work with maps, but I do know that the reason they're out of date is deliberate; when the Syrian war and the ISIS 'Caliphate' came about a few years ago, we decided it would be pointless to keep updating articles about Syria, Iraq, southern Kurdistan etc for the duration and focus our efforts on places travellers could visit. For the same reason, it would be futile to work on Yemen just now. However, now the war in the Levant is winding down in many areas, it is a good thing to have you and other users who know the region (User:Sarbast.T.Hameed springs to mind) coming here and trying to drag our content into 2018. Honestly, we're excited to see what you guys can do!
The actual renaming of regions is a different process than just editing the map, it also involves changing the names of articles. You will have to start a discussion on relevant talk pages (to keep it simple I suggest Talk:Iraq and Talk:Syria), explain why you think we need to change the region names, and see if the editing community agrees or at least reaches a consensus one way or the other.
I know this can be a lot to take in, but if you need any help with any of this, or if I haven't adequately explained something, just ask. I and any of the other administrators (find a list of us here) are on hand, more or less 24/7. All the best, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:22, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Page banners

Would you mind adding the default page banner to the pages I made? I still can't seem to figure it out... Libertarianmoderate (talk) 17:45, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

I've added the banner to Rojava (and completed the WV:Region article template), which is the new only article you have created. Redirects don't need banners. For future reference, all you need to do is put {{pagebanner}} at the top of the article. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:18, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Talk page

Hi. It might be a good idea to semi-protect my talk page. I'm not active here and it only attract vandals. -- Tegel (talk) 18:01, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Will do! Sorry for all the hassle caused by this guy. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:09, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

The perfect word


Thank you for that. Ground Zero (talk) 05:53, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I got my dictionary out specially. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 07:56, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
Where? And which meaning? The "go places to make them slave states of the US" sense or the "hold a long speech" sense? Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:47, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
The second one. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:58, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
I've never heard of the first definition you're giving. In a traditional filibuster, the long speeches used to block all other action in the U.S. Senate. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:45, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
This sorry excuse for a human being would be the best example of the first definition... Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:55, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

My post-block edits

Well, it's good to be back. And I have some great ideas for new articles, in addition to the articles I plan to work on expanding.

- Ground Zero/WTC, New York City - Armenian genocide remembrance - Ruins of Ctesiphon - French Empire (historical travel) - Incan Empire (historical travel)

Basically, if I create new articles in the near future, I'm mostly going to be focusing on historical travel.

Libertarianmoderate (talk) 16:23, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Welcome back! All of those sound great, apart from the WTC one. We don't have articles for individual attractions with the exception of very large, significant and self-contained attractions like the various Disney parks, and Machu Picchu. Take a look at What is an article? for more details on this. Anything you have to write on 9/11 can be included in whatever district article of NYC is the right location. Other than that, I look forward to seeing your contributions. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:53, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Ground Zero isn't just one attraction. It's a district in and of itself, with skyscrapers, museums, malls, parks, etc. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 18:36, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

As a New Yorker, I doubt it merits an article by itself. Add whatever you think needs to be added to the listing at Manhattan/Financial District. If it really gets too long, we can reconsider. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:38, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, or you could make your case for a new district at Talk:New York City. Either method is reasonable and open to you. But creating such an article without consensus would only get you reverted and blocked again. That's the reality of a collaborative project like Wikivoyage. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:48, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
You can always create it in Userspace, like so: User:YourUsername/Example. I have done this a few times. Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:18, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Also, for some reason, the pagebanners haven't been showing up for me recently, specifically on my page and the new Armenian Genocide page. Could you help me out please? —The preceding comment was added by Libertarianmoderate (talkcontribs)

A goat for you!

Boer Goat (8742860752).jpg

well you are one

Doortodoorseles (talk) 11:40, 26 June 2018 (UTC)


Thanks for explaining what you meant by "technically". I did not get that from what was written. I'm not sure that other readers will get all of that from "technically". How about this instead:

"Bouzigues" comes from the Occitan Bosigas, which means "fallow land" or "wasteland". It is on the other side of a large man-made tidal salt water lagoon called the Étang de Thau, which is 5 km from the Mediterranean Sea. The sea water flows freely into the lagoon, fish and boats can come and go as they please, and the lagoon's shoreline is tidal."

Does that get the meaning across? Ground Zero (talk) 23:57, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

That's fine, except it's Bouzigues which is 5 km from the sea (separated from it by the lagoon); the étang de Thau meets the sea at Sète, via a short channel, which is noted somewhere else in the article. So, just take out the "which is" and replace it with "and is", and the meaning is correct. Thanks for your other copy-edits.
I have been meaning to go back to that article and implement the rest of the suggested improvements in the talk page, but haven't had a great deal of time to do much more than admin work. I'm trying to get it to a star nomination, with or without a static map. If you have any other suggestions, please do let me know. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:05, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Sandbox pages

Do you like my new sandbox page? Or is it a violation? Because it is kind of a joke article... Libertarianmoderate (talk) 13:58, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

You can, within reason, have anything you like in your userspace. Every year, we work on a joke article in time for April Fool's Day, so you might consider submitting Heaven as an idea for that next year. Very imaginative, by the way. I'm not sure there's much to say about the Grox Empire, other than that they're aggressive as hell, and terrible hosts to weary travellers. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:09, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
I think we've had Heaven for April First already.... Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:56, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Not according to the list. Hell has been done, apparently. To be honest, I've only been involved with this year's article. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:11, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

@user:thunderingtyhpoons: I had no idea you played Spore. If only it were multiplayer (or at least had a working gallery system)... Libertarianmoderate (talk) 20:28, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

I haven't played it in years, actually. A newer and much more complex version is needed, IMO. I remember getting excited about the original concept, waiting for years, and then being disappointed with what was released. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:44, 29 June 2018 (UTC)


Hi, I was wondering if you could do me a favor. My second account, User:LibMod, has served its purpose (block evasion). I was wondering if you could 1: Tell me how to delete the LibMod account, and 2: if it's possible to rename my account to LibMod because "Libertarianmoderate" is kind of a mouthful. Libertarianmoderate (talk)

Hi. In answer to your first question, your account can't be deleted, because every edit needs to be attributed to an account. The most we can do is delete the User:LibMod userpage, but the account will still exist. I'm not sure whether we can / should block that account, just to avoid it being hacked, so I'll ping User:LtPowers, User:Pashley and User:Ikan Kekek (admins with much more experience), one of whom will hopefully know.
For the second question, Wikivoyage is part of the wider Wikimedia Foundation, along with Wikipedia, Wiktionary etc, and accounts are shared across the different wikis. Therefore, we can't change usernames locally, so you need to go to Meta:Steward requests/Username changes, read the instructions on the page and then put in a request. You should be logged on to Meta automatically, but if not just log in with the same username and password you use for Wikivoyage. Since User:LibMod already exists, I don't think it will be possible to use that exact name again, but the Stewards will confirm this.
However, maybe hold off on that until another admin can confirm all of what I've told you is correct. Best wishes, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:24, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

@TT: Good news, I found a solution. I redirected the User:LibMod page to my own page. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 22:34, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

So do you still want to pursue the renaming? Pinging @LtPowers:, @Pashley: and @Ikan Kekek: because I'm not sure if they received the first one. Would any of you guys be able to advise on whether we should block User:LibMod to prevent it being hacked in future? Thanks, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:20, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

@User:thunderingtyphoons!: No, it's fine. I've found a use for it. —The preceding comment was added by Libertarianmoderate (talkcontribs)


What do you mean that was your edit? The Wikivoyage Barncompass was clearly tagged by User:onlinerewards... Libertarianmoderate (talk) 01:18, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Certainly, but that edit had already been removed. You undid an edit made by me. It's not a big deal. :) ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 07:54, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

More info on local politics


After watching the news recently, and seeing the surge in politically-motivated violence in the United States, I have realized that we need to provide more info on the politics of areas in the United States. Especially for those who hold right-of-center political views, it is imperative that they know the risks of holding certain views. For example, in California, expressing conservative viewpoints may lead to backlash, as we saw with the Berkeley Riots and Maxine Waters. If travelers from elsewhere come to America not knowing this info, they could be badly harmed or even killed. What I would do is either add a news Local Politics section to our formats, or file it under Respect. Either way, they must know this info, and I need your help to implement this nationwide.

Libertarianmoderate (talk) 15:59, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

What is right of center in the US is not a very widespread political viewpoint in most western democracies, so the number of foreign travelers this would affect is low. And I do think you exaggerate a bit. But do go ahead, expressing your political views in downtown Managua, see what happens. Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:08, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
This may be worth doing,though not purely as a means to inform "centre-right" travellers. If there are risks to speaking your mind in the land of the First Amendment, it doesn't just affect people with outspoken right-wing views.
This is something you should discuss with other editors on Talk:United States of America, as there have been controversies even on Wikivoyage about how political our content should get.
As for me joining in, U.S. affairs are not my part of the ship, as it were. There are plenty of Wikivoyagers with a great deal to write about America, but since I am not of them, I stay away from U.S.-related articles. But there are many people who will be interested in commenting on your idea over at Talk:United States of America. Best of luck, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:05, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

I know it's not just right-wingers that are targeted. I'm just using that as an example. We should also explain that liberals may face a similar reaction in red states. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 15:36, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

I think you and to some extent User:The dog2 way overblow the way the political debate in the US affects people, particularly travelers. You make it seem that the wrong word at the wrong time can get you killed or worse. There are countries where that is the case, but with a few exceptions (mouthing off to a police officer while black and "reaching for a gun") the US are not such a country. Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:19, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

It goes without saying that it is a bad idea for visitors to any country to participate in a political protest. We don't include warnings about drinking poison or juggling with knives either. Ground Zero (talk) 11:45, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Well that would be WV:obvious, would it not? Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:05, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
Under the Stay safe article, we already advised people to avoid political protests as long as you are in a foreign country. And well, I think you've misrepresented some of the things I've said. I never said that using the wrong word will get you killed. That is most certainly not the case, as least when it's done outside of a political protest. Of course if you choose a to shout a pro-Trump slogan at a left-wing rally (or an anti-Trump slogan at a right-wing rally), then all bets are off, and I think it's more or less commonsense not to do so. But while violence is in general a low risk, what is true is that Americans are very sensitive, so it's very easy to offend people by saying the wrong thing among the wrong crowd. And sure, it doesn't help that the right calls every single left winger too naive, idealistic and authoritarian, and the left calls every single right winger neo-Nazis and white supremacists (but that said, it's true that many right wingers oppose the Civil Rights Act of 1964 as they consider it "government overreach"; or in other words that it should have stopped at not allowing the government to discriminate, but should have allowed private businesses and individuals to discriminate as much as they like). But offending people doesn't necessarily mean you'll be the target of physical violence. The dog2 (talk) 14:37, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
In the Talk:United States of America#Respect and Trump thread, we came up with the following language: "Since at least the 1990s, the trend has been for Americans to become increasingly polarized in their political beliefs, and nowadays, party allegiance can take precedence over reason and civility. If it even sounds like you are saying something positive about a political figure or policy that someone is against (or speaking ill of a figure or policy they support), you may receive some verbal hostility. However, physically violent reactions to political statements remain rare." Everyone participating in the thread was satisfied with it. What in the World is insufficient about it? I hope nothing, as I really don't think we should spend more time discussing this stuff unless physical attacks on people for political reasons start becoming common in the U.S. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:09, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
I wasn't the one who started this thread, and I'm happy with the way the last point in the "Respect" section is worded. Walking down the street carrying pro-Trump slogan will no doubt offend everyone around you in left-wing areas (as would walking down the street carrying an anti-Trump slogan in right-wing areas), but unless there is an anti-Trump rally going on, your personal safety will generally not be under threat from that. In any case, we have already advised travellers to avoid protests when they are in a foreign country in the Stay safe article, so unless there is a higher risk for crowd violence or heavy-handed tactics from the police in the U.S. than in other countries, we need not cover that. At this point in time, I don't think the risk to your personal safety at a protest is higher in the U.S. than in any other Western democracy, so it doesn't warrant any extra warnings. And of course, it's commonsense that you should avoid a KKK rally if you're not white, or a neo-Nazi rally if you're Jewish, so we don't need to advise people about that. And one final point is that despite what you see in the media, as of now, people who commit political violence, both on the left and on the right, are in the vast minority, and unlikely for tourists to have to worry about. The dog2 (talk) 18:17, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── In addition to being historically anti-Catholic (which makes an Irish KKK member especially ironic), they continue to be rampantly antisemitic to this day. Well, most o' 'em at least. Some - very, very few - try to claim "white Jews", but even then the antisemitism quickly shows beneath a thin veneer and facade, so the advice for Jews to avoid (other types of) Neo-Nazi rallies also applies for the KKK... Anyway, if anything is more dangerous in the US than in (most of) Europe then it is plain old murder, the murder rate in the US is - depending on the state - ten times higher than in most EU states. Frankfurt Bahnhofsviertel is likely safer than the "best" urban neighborhoods in the US and some people would be tempted to call the Bahnhofsviertel a "crime hotspot" - albeit a rapidly gentrifying one... Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:21, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

That said, the vast majority of those murders are not political murders. Political murders are extremely rare in the U.S., and are no more common than in say, Western Europe. And in any case, the murder rate in the U.S. still doesn't come close to the likes of Brazil, Mexico or South Africa. As long as you stay in the good areas, you'll generally be fine. The dog2 (talk) 05:43, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
Huh. The same is true for the Mexican murder rate - as long as you stay out of the way of "certain groups" aren't a politician unwilling to take plata (and thus liable to get the plomo treatment) or a journalist asking the "wrong" questions you'll be fine. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:09, 11 July 2018 (UTC)



Hi, I recently started an article about Bilhorod, Ukraine, but I don't have time to finish it. All the templates are in place, but it needs more info. Could you help me out? Libertarianmoderate (talk) 17:37, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't take requests to work on specific articles. I work on places I know, and recently have barely had time for that. I am happy to help and advise anyone, but doing other people's editing for them stretches the limits of that. It's a personal thing, and you may find editors willing to do what you have in mind.
Just remember, there's no rush to get any article 'finished', and you can return to it (and the others you've started in the Middle East) when you have more time. Wikipedia has a great essay on this subject, which you may wish to read: Wikipedia:There's no deadline. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:18, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
User:Libertarianmoderate, have a look at User:Ypsilon/Tips for improving articles on unfamiliar destinations. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:22, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

User:ThunderingTyphoons!, I guess you're right. There are no deadlines. Unless you're talking about Ar Rutba, in which case that had to be done ASAP or you'd delete all my hard work and redirect the first article I ever wrote. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 01:34, 13 July 2018 (UTC)