User talk:Grahamsands

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Hello, Grahamsands! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. If you are familiar with Wikipedia, take a look over some of the differences here.

Thanks for all your edits so far!

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:18, 11 August 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ticket sales on trains in Finland[edit]

Hi and thanks for your edits. You've added to a couple of Finnish articles the fact that tickets are not sold onboard trains any longer. Ticket sales on the local trains in the Helsinki region (operated by HSL rather than the national rail company VR) were indeed terminated in June, but as far as I know (I very rarely travel by train) you can still buy tickets onboard all other trains. ϒpsilon (talk) 06:50, 8 July 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

REPLY: Hi, from recent travel to Vaasa I had understood this rule also applied to VR mainline trains, but that may be my mistake. VR website doesn’t say anything about it, and they surely would publicise if there was a recent change of policy. In UK the rule is, you must buy a ticket in advance wherever it’s possible to do so; but some little stations have no facilities so it’s okay to hop on and pay the conductor. It’d be good to clarify this, as travellers arriving in Finland late at night may not be able to commit in advance to a particular train, and might not find open kiosks or functioning machines. Regards gs

FURTHER: email from VR confirms that you can still buy ticket aboard long distance trains. But not commuter trains - and some routes eg Helsinki-Tampere have both types of train. Grahamsands (talk) 09:46, 17 July 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"Get in" section renaming[edit]

Hi there, is there a specific reason why you renamed the "get in" section to "get around" on some of the Edinburgh district pages (here or here)? District articles normally have a "get in" section, but not a "get around" section: Wikivoyage:District_article_template.Xsobev (talk) 22:58, 27 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Apols, I’ve reverted that. Obviously the distinction I was making was between reaching the city, which should be on the main page, and navigating a district. Some of the content seemed to me to be blurring the two. But it’s less obvious for the outer districts, which as minor transport hubs may have their own portals, so I left them be.
It’s the same argument in reverse for “Go next” – these should be on the main city page, and Edinburgh is especially well-connected. I couldn’t see the point of listing all the other city districts there, as these are more informatively set out just by clicking up the root to the city page. Grahamsands (talk) 11:58, 28 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If you are not familiar with the city, it may not be obvious that say Edinburgh/Stockbridge and Canonmills is immediately to the north of Edinburgh/New Town. I added the map and links in Go next to help readers navigate around (rather than two clicks to go via Edinburgh). An alternative would be a paragraph in Understand describing the boundaries of each district. See Talk:Edinburgh/New Town#Upgrade to "guide" status for an earlier discussion of this. AlasdairW (talk) 20:47, 28 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for reverting to match the typical layout. I like the idea of describing which other districts are bordering the current one in a short paragraph either in the introduction text, the "understand" section, or maybe even better as intro text in the "get in" section (since not all district articles have an "understand" section). Xsobev (talk) 11:20, 29 September 2017 (UTC) P.S. @Grahamsands, what's your motivation to change the section headlines in the district "get in" sections from ===By bus=== to '''By bus:'''? I think the first way is more consistent with general use on Wikivoyage, and more clearly separates the information (for example, as traveler I might not be interested in taking buses, because I want to walk -- when having sections, I can easily ignore them, thus not wasting time when reading. Also having sections creates a menu item in the top bar (and in offline Wikivoyage smartphone apps) which makes navigation easier.)Reply[reply]
Also, thanks very much in general for all your contributions to the Edinburgh page :)
The present district arrangement looks well, with the map and a short orientation near the top.
I have a preference, but wouldn't make a thing of it, of down-staging some sub-headers where there's barely a couple of lines of text, as they're disproportionate on the page. I was hoping this helps rather than hinders navigability, as the traveller is first searching for transport options rather than a specific modality, and lands on a more compact page view. Grahamsands (talk) 11:30, 13 October 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Removal of listing templates[edit]

Please explain this edit, because I'm confused by it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:36, 17 December 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

So, I've read the de-WV entries for "Events", fact-checked against other sources, and written into en-WV accordingly. It seemed simpler to do so in plain text in the first instance. They can convert into listings if that will be clearer, but it wasn't obvious to me that they would. Eg we don't have map refs. Grahamsands (talk) 22:46, 17 December 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The current absence of information is not IMO a good reason not to use a template that makes it simple for whoever has the info to add it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:03, 17 December 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hokay, I'll listify them in the next day or two. Grahamsands (talk) 23:22, 17 December 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks a lot. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:55, 17 December 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Time formatting[edit]

Thanks, as always, for your very useful updates on articles. It is easiest for readers if we use one time format per article, rather than changing from one format to another to another through an article. There are two used in Wikivoyage -- a 12-hour format (e.g. 9AM-noon, 2PM-6PM), and a 24-hour format (e.g. 09:00-13:00 and 14:00-18:00), and we try to use the format that is used in the country the article is about. This is set out in our style guide, WV:tdf. I hope that helps. Keep up the great work. Ground Zero (talk) 22:24, 17 April 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Tell me about it! If I ever find an article with a consistent style I'll gladly hew to it . . . Grahamsands (talk) 08:53, 18 April 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Well, Alcalá de Henares had a consistent style before your edits. Appreciate the updates, though. Ground Zero (talk) 21:06, 4 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hola GZ! The Alcalá entry, if I rightly recall, was previously consistent via the cunning ruse of showing very few opening hours at all.
Sometimes when editing I’m aware of a bot dogging my heels: is there not one that finds & tidies tdf infelicities? (Don Quixote routinely, and Sancho Panza often, and even sometimes their steeds, were repeatedly beaten up over similar infractions.) I’d be sad if anyone was painstakingly correcting my Sat-Sun to Sa Su, when they could be out travelling, or making the substantive edits that so many WV pages urgently need. Grahamsands (talk) 21:45, 6 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm sure you've heard that sarcasm is is the lowest form of wit. I've contributed more than enough content and created more than enough new articles here that it would be ludicrous for anyone to try to lecture me on how to contribute. Fortunately, I have the time and inclination also to improve the project by make it easier to read and easier for travellers to find information. When you said above that you would gladly hew to the style of an article where it was consistent, I took you at your word that you were not intentionally making articles more difficult for readers. More the fool me. Your considerable contributions to Wikivoyage make the guide better. With negligible effort, you could also make it easier to read and find information. Ground Zero (talk) 16:01, 9 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hey, please, it's not sarcasm. I genuinely don't want to create unnecessary work for other contributors, who I assume to be busy, experienced editors and travellers with lots else they need to be doing. Still less do I want anyone to feel jibed at, and I'm real sorry if I read that way. The WV formats are helpful and sensible, and I try to follow them. I don't altogether succeed but I notice various auto-format routines kicking in behind me and naturally wondered whether these included tdf. If they don't, I need to be more diligent there.

What I come back to is utility to the reader / traveller. How much grief does it cause the reader to find Mon-Fri instead of M-F, compared to finding no hours at all, incorrect hours, place closed down, content just a publicity blurb, or umpteen other glitches? I've seen several conversations on WV where format is championed with passion. Yet the collaboration can only have got this far thru equal passion to improve substantive content. Grahamsands (talk) 17:31, 9 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

My apologies. There is no tdf bot. I thought that was a jibe, and accept that it wasn't. There is no question that content is more important than format. I'll gladly clean up the formatting of a newbie user and be happy that content was added. It's just that when regular contributors continually add incorrect formatting or change the formats I hope to cajole them into using the standard formats. Its also about improving the look of Wikivoyage to give it more credibility in the eyes of readers, and thereby draw more readers. But I have to work on finding more gentle ways of cajoling. The last thing I would want to do is discourage someone from adding content because of fussing over format. Best regards, Ground Zero (talk) 12:30, 10 May 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

An award for you![edit]

The Wikivoyage Barncompass
Thankless work needn't always go unthanked, and I believe the community is long overdue in recognising your dedication to improving all kinds of articles, all over Wikivoyage. Thank you for everything, Graham! ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:38, 26 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Aw, that's nice, TT. But I'd never call the input thankless: there's lots of practical and educational reward from editing, both in preparation for and recollection of a trip. Some folk take selfies, some blog, to me it's more satisfying to overhaul WV content.

WP confirms my impression that the "barnstar" is more correctly an anchor plate, used to pin the walls of a rickety old building. (In UK they're usually in an X-shape.) So another analogy for contributions is that they . . . maybe I'll just leave off with this metaphor. Regards Grahamsands (talk) 13:19, 26 September 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Your user page[edit]

Hi Graham. You are welcome to recreate your userpage whenever you like. I am also happy to protect or semiprotect your userspace, if you request it. Best wishes, James ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:07, 28 October 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Horse Racing...[edit]

A more limited topic than 'ships' but another one I did not know much on..

Any thoughts? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:29, 3 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

My instinct is always to start from the base destination, so it's immediately useful to the traveller, and you don't wait aeons while some ponderous project gathers steam then fizzles out. For horse racing, I noticed there was a concentration in Yorkshire, so I ensured every "city" with a race track had a two-liner about it: where's the course, flat or jumps, famous fixtures. It would be two rainy afternoons' work to cover the whole UK & Irish racing scene in this way, just pick up the racing section of a Tabloid and check WV for every track they mention - then again six months later to catch the alternate season. Extend to other countries as time allows. If later you saw value in a dedicated page, it would write itself as search would immediately pull the examples; trying to do it top-down would be a frustrating business. Regards GS 3/1/19

When did the Aviemore resort go "bust"?[edit]

Not seeing anything recent about the resort having gone bust... but the funicular is still being reported as out of action.

Can you confirm they went bust? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:34, 7 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Telegraph of 25 Nov 2018: "CairnGorm Mountain placed in administration", so not bankrupt or liquidated, but financially unable to carry out essential repairs. Their woes can only deepen with loss of revenue at this time of year, and later reports mentioned 50 staff laid off; no sign of a rescue package. I thought "bust" summed the situation up. Grahamsands (talk) 13:30, 7 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Horses ..[edit]

Thank you updating all those articles. It was unexpected, (given your suggestion in a past e-mail, I was sort of expecting to have to add/update some of them myself. :) ) I've now looked and updated where needed the 3 Welsh venues noted on Wikipedia.

Will be looking into the Scottish ones shortly... Also found this - which seems to be a list kept by the 'official' sports regulator for horse racing in Ireland, will be looking it further in the next few days, if you don't want to plunge forward yourself :) .

I may well consider requesting a stub for Horse racing or Equestrian sports once I've had chance to see if there are any museums associated with specific courses, I found Palace House Musuem, and and The Museum Of The Horse at The Newcastle Arms, Tuxford

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:58, 19 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Good good. The Irish tracks meeting this weekend appear to be Navan, Leopardstown, Naas, Thurles, Gowran Park Kilkenny, Tramore, Punchestown, Limerick, Clonmel and Dundalk. For style, I used the term "jumps races" because I didn't think "National Hunt" would be understood by US / Anzac readers. Actually some of those NH winter meets are "chases" not hurdles, but let that be. I led in with "Go to the races at . . . " (and similar with other sports, eg "Watch Quidditch at . . . ") as it felt like that's what you primarily do, not "Visit xxx Stadium". Grahamsands (talk) 19:19, 19 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

A recent edit...[edit]

There's a whole travel topic on Mining tourism and Underground works that could be considered as well.

Maybe the Edinburgh basements would count as an 'underground' attraction in that destination as well? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:10, 20 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks! I wasn't aware of those pages, there's a lot of UK entries merit linking. However Edinburgh old town buildings go up a long way but don't penetrate much underground, the bedrock's too hard, it just looks like they do because the ground falls away steeply. Lots of better examples in places with underlying soft rock, eg Budapest. Grahamsands (talk) 23:22, 20 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Thanks for : -

There is also a topic Aviation history which probably needs splitting, given it's length. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:22, 22 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for your recent hard work on Oban. I am a little surprised that you removed so many markers. It certainly makes sense to not have two markers for the same building, and maybe not for two buildings that are next door, but I think that otherwise everywhere should have a marker. When I am wandering about a strange town, I sometimes get out the map to look for nearby markers - doing that in Oban I would miss the cathedrals, distillery and museum. AlasdairW (talk) 22:26, 22 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Okay, I've overdone it, so I reverted those. Grahamsands (talk) 22:32, 22 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you. That's good. AlasdairW (talk) 22:49, 22 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Thanks for

Lighthouses was an article I started and others added to. Probably some more Historical sites in the UK. And Flannan Isle has some folklore attached to it obviously. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 00:25, 24 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Good stuff. I suggest a bit more intro to say i) scope of page is specifically lighthouses that you can visit, there are squillions more that you just see from a distance, which is what they're for; ii) page doesn't include Daymarks, sometimes confused with lighthouses; iii) brief mention of Pharos, the island that gave its name to the world's first, now joined by infill to Alexandria Egypt. Grahamsands (talk) 09:46, 24 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Plunge forward. What are daymarks? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:48, 24 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Okay, later today. A daymark is what it says, a big prominent tower that you can see by day to steer by, but there's no light so it doesn't help in poor viz or at night. Pharos started out as a simple daymark then became a lighthouse. Grahamsands (talk) 09:57, 24 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done. Check whether the new intro properly describes the intent of this page. Grahamsands (talk) 20:53, 25 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It does. Thank you :).. Lighthouses also have some folklore, Flannan Isle for example has a poem, but the actual light is fairly remote IIRC. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 00:01, 26 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Catering on trains...[edit]

In respect of Cuisine of Britain and Ireland, and the United Kingdom article, what's the current situation? It's been a while since I made a long distance train journey, and my recollection back in 2005 was that proper dining cars were on the way out, or had gone.. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 00:35, 27 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

None nowadays on UK trains as far as I know. In First Class and on Eurostar, there's an at-seat service, in Standard Class just elbow your way to the buffet. Probably similar even on Heritage railway excursions, just for the practicalities of getting everyone served to a schedule. Grahamsands (talk) 19:14, 27 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]


As with Wikipedia, note to self, ALWAYS fact check..

I'm dissapointed I failed to notice this for a l-o-n-g time. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:50, 27 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'd say that's the sort of detail that can usefully go in the Plymouth listing. For the Lighthouses page which is just a round-up, it's enough just to explain that a former Eddystone lighthouse is now here on the mainland. Grahamsands (talk) 19:04, 27 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Horse Racing (3rd furlong) ;)...[edit] Concise but probably a little too short :(

I've been adding these to the appropriate town article, or if needed the county level article. If you want to expand, or move things around plunge forward.

I think a summary overview as Horse racing in Britain and Ireland is desirable given that most of the UK courses are now in destination articles, and I will be slowly adding some more of the Irish courses over the next few weeks. A summary overview would also be the place to explain the various types of races (such as flats , hurdles, steeplechase, etc. which may differ from terms used elsewhere). Also given that gambling (on track or off) forms an essential part of Going to the races for a considerable number of people, a concise explanation of this aspect would also be something to include.

I do not know that much about Horse racing, even with the UK though, so I'll also post a note in the pub similar to this one, asking if anyone else is able to write such an article. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 00:13, 28 January 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

A Blackpool legend...[edit]

Funny Girls, has a website - which suggest booking is needed for seating. Arguably it's more a 'drag' cabaret venue than what the current description, has for it. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:15, 4 March 2019 (UTC) - Agree, so it's moved from Drink to Do as a cabaret act. Grahamsands (talk) 22:00, 4 March 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Scottish Caves[edit]

I noted you added some listings of Caves up in Scotland, so figured you might want to add or reviews some cross references here:

Thanks in advance.

I'd also like someone to take a look at the outline of British coast - DONE, commented there GS 25/4

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 08:04, 24 April 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Probably the only thing I'd add to the UK cave section (which mustn't degenerate into a list) is a throwaway mention of the other cave types mentioned in the intro, ie sea caves, abandoned mine workings, other industrial tunnels, and catacombs. Grahamsands (talk) 10:13, 25 April 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Cave diving[edit]

Per comments elsewhere I removed it from the Caves article -, as I felt it was a technical specialism, and that those interested would be reading seeking specific technical advice thorough appropriate organisations. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:30, 28 April 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Soccer in the United Kingdom?[edit]

Association Football in Europe has a section, but if you wanted to pull together something from entries in the respective Premier teams home cites and towns.

Perhaps I should go check myself which Premier teams stadia have entries on Wikioyage?  :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:47, 26 May 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

ShakespeareFan00, feel free to check, but I believe all Premier League & Championship sides are listed, along with all Scottish ditto, and most League One, League Two & Scottish pro sides. For lower leagues I reckoned that they don't all merit listing, but if they are, it should be up to date for 19 / 20. For Europe there are listings for all the top tier D F ES P I sides, plus for all other European leagues the top 4 or 5 that boss their domestic league and regularly compete in Euro tournaments, and that are unlikely to suffer relegation. Grahamsands (talk) 19:06, 26 May 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for updating ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:13, 26 May 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Did you get confused here - ? Palace are in the Premier in the 2019-2020 season according to Wikipedia. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:17, 26 May 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Regrettably yes I did. Sorted, thanks. Grahamsands (talk) 19:33, 26 May 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Articles for improvement?[edit]

Given your skill, in expanding articles, I was wondering if you kept a list of articles to be improved?

Labyrinths being one, and Miniatures,_dioramas_and_scale_models being another. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 07:18, 29 May 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

For labyrinths I added Knossos and Julian's Bower. Not sure where the miniatures piece is going, but a couple of examples are Tamen Mini Indonesia in Jakarta, and Mini Israel at Latrun. My short-list of articles to work on as & when today numbers 56, mostly city-destinations as you need this foundation for everything else. Many will expand on opening, eg looking at County Dublin straightaway becomes a dozen townships surrounding the city. You probably noticed the general call for contributions from (or alternatively about) Ireland so do what you can there - horse-racing was a good start, thanks. Grahamsands (talk) 21:46, 29 May 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
In respect of Ireland articles, I will note the following attractions here as the towns don't have an article yet:

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:50, 31 May 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Would you like to have the status of patroller? You would be able to patrol edits without the responsibilities an administrator needs to have. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:52, 22 July 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hmm. I think I add more value to WV by building undeveloped destinations, that have sparse, obsolete content and few contributions. It's uncommon for me to edit in response to other users' recent input, and on those occasions I can do so without additional status. Feels like I should stick to this and it would be a distraction to be driven by what others are writing. So thanks Selfie City but no thanks. Grahamsands (talk) 10:15, 23 July 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Sure, that's absolutely fine. Just wondering if you wanted it. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 11:40, 23 July 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

As you have a knack for digging up both obscure and practical information, I was wondering if you could give this a look over in the next few weeksShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:39, 6 September 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've rolled over a few of the dates, and genericised some others.

Currently, it may be a bit US centric, but as modern day Halloween is a US holiday, that's probably inevitable. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:39, 6 September 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Remote Railways..[edit]

I seem to recall a discussion a few years ago that mentioned some "breakwater" lines even further North than the Hebrides and Western Isles.

Wikipedia has w:Hagdale_Chromate_Railway in the Shetlands.

And if we include industrial railways in even more remote outposts of Britan - (Falklands) and (St Helena and Acension).

Not necessarily material for a (general) travel guide, but maybe of interest to really dedicate railway enthusiasts and industrial historians. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 08:23, 8 September 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Add them to the relevant city page if there are remains worth seeing, a trail you can walk along the old track bed, an old coach that's now a cafe, that sort of thing. Collating them as a theme page feels like a wearisome task with a scrappy outcome, since it would have to be called "Railways so obscure that they're not even mentioned here." Grahamsands (talk) 12:49, 9 September 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Community Insights Survey[edit]

RMaung (WMF) 14:34, 9 September 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

(They also sent a REMINDER at 19:13 on 20 September 2019, and another at 17:04 on 4 October 2019, but I'd already responded - GCS)

A (non-rabid) goat for you![edit]

For the informative and entertaining work you did on Neum back in the summer. I love it.

ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:52, 21 October 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Gee, so that's what became of Great Uncle Gustav. Great Aunt Vreni always wondered. - GS

Please be more careful[edit]

The point of date stamping an edit is to let readers know when the information was current. If you know that prices and hours are going to be valud until a later date, that's even more useful. But in reverting my edits, you reinstated a bunch of formatting and capitalisation errors that I had fixed. (See wv:units and wv:sh for info on formatting units like "min" and headings.) Please be more careful in reverting things. I'm sure you didn't mean to restore those errors.

But most importantly, great work on updating the ferry information for the Scottish islands. Regards, Ground Zero (talk) 20:04, 16 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

And apols for walking over you, I looked back at Hx and now see what I'd missed. Grahamsands (talk) 21:12, 16 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Before the Web there was Viewdata....[edit]

I was wondering if anyone wanted to attempt adapting Wikivoyage content for it:-

(Not entirely a serious suggestion though.) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:41, 14 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That's an excellent suggestion, and we should also translate the Telstar content into Klingon. Grahamsands (talk) 20:38, 16 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Merging articles[edit]

Graham, you are making a whole bunch of content inaccessible by incorrectly redirecting articles. Please see Wikivoyage:How to merge two pages. You must move the content to the new article before redirecting so that we don't lose all of that information that editors have contributed. Ground Zero (talk) 10:56, 4 February 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've taken this to Manchester / Talk as there are some principles to discuss here. Grahamsands (talk) 20:01, 4 February 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Good morning, Graham. Thanks for your updates regarding FlyBe. I think the information you're adding would stand out better in a cautionbox, rather than as straight prose. What do you think? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:48, 5 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I considered that, but thought the added value of doing so would only stand for a day or two while everyone caught up with the news. I was thinking more of the longer term impact on viability of airports and indeed of whole destinations such as Newquay, Northern Ireland and Jersey. I'll complete the present update in the next ten min then we can take stock. Grahamsands (talk) 08:53, 5 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It will be of value for longer than a day or two, because people will have tickets booked and will still want to get where they're going, and at some point it will become clear which routes are going to be replaced and which are axed. I understand there are other sources of information, but we do aim to be a self-contained travel guide. If necessary, we could put the box in a template, and deploy it across however many articles (so you edit the template page, and it changes automatically across the site,) if the idea of keeping so many articles updated over an indeterminate period of time is daunting.ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:24, 5 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It's tempting to try to be the first with travel news, but the way Nationalrail enquiries crashed last night suggests that most travellers are ahead of us. I didn't think the extra prominence of a cautionbox added much, but don't object to one. But what doesn't work is standard warning content for all Flybe destinations, for the very reason you raise. For some it's a hammer blow (Newquay, Belfast). For some it's a damned nuisance but you can workaround (Southampton). For some it's a major concern (Blue Islands still fly to Jersey, but can they keep going?) For some it's indirect (Flights to Scilly and by Loganair to the Scottish islands are by separate carriers, but what about the onward air connection). So that's what I've sought to portray. It's difficult to see other operators taking these routes in the next few months as everyone is retrenching over coronavirus. Grahamsands (talk) 10:50, 5 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It seems at least a few dozen articles still recommend FlyBe for getting to destinations. Someone will need to go through and remove the airline from each of them. I can try to do that when I have time, or one of you can if you have the chance. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:28, 5 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Let's move these discussions to the pub, I don't own the topic. Grahamsands (talk) 13:34, 5 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

LE100 not 100EGP[edit]

Cheers Ceever (talk) 10:17, 5 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I note the discussion of 2017 which recommended LE, but the listings edit box offers EGP so I stuck with that. Someone please resolve this, but meanwhile having started Dahab using EGP I was intending to continue with that for local consistency. Many places actually quote in euros but I converted.
However, further to that, as you've taken the trouble to amend those listings to LE, I'm happy to switch style, and thanks. Grahamsands (talk) 10:34, 5 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Also, always US$100, €100 ... Cheers Ceever (talk) 22:07, 10 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

As you are exceptional at writing "engaging" content, any chance you could improve the content here? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:13, 10 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Not sure I can see the difference between these and mainstream religious pilgrimages, except by the number of participants, so I'll back away from this one. But keep the weird stuff coming! Thanks - Grahamsands (talk) 12:42, 11 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The clue is in the name, fringe. If your special friend has 50 followers, you're in a cult; if you and your fellow friends number 50 million, you're in a religion. To summarise, cult = bad, religion = good, our religion = best.
That article is more about the paranormal, though, which is of interest to far more people than just those who are believers. I agree with this talk page's owner that you have a talent for turning a phrase, but there are always more things to work on than possible on WV.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:14, 11 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]


My friend, on UK, it says "Football means of course association football or soccer." We don't therefore need to say "football, i.e. soccer" in every article about the UK, just like we don't say "motorway, i.e. highway" or "chips, i.e. french fries" in every article about the UK. My point was not that people from Yorkshire know what "football" means, it was that pretty much everyone reading any article about England will know that "football" unqualified means association footie in every circumstance, and not something else.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:08, 1 April 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I was reluctant to assume as much in this context, and the Captain always struck me as belonging to a moustachio'd era when the codes hadn't separated. Grahamsands (talk) 19:01, 1 April 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"Traditional" Architecture of the British Isles...[edit]

Can you think of any stand-out examples or explanations that would need to be in a travel topic?

I've got a Brunskill book somewhere, but didn't want to base any potential future travel topic solely on one academics, views.

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:21, 27 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Heavens, that's a huge topic, that would range over the Forth Bridge, half-timbered Tudorbethan, Georgian Bath and Regency Cheltenham, the walls of Derry, the early "planned" towns like Inveraray, Wren's London rising from the Great Fire, the confident municipal Victoriana . . . you might be at this for some time. Grahamsands (talk) 19:24, 28 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

An award for you![edit]

The Wikivoyage Barncompass
For your impressive work improving articles about places in the British Isles over the last months, please have a barncompass! Ypsilon (talk) 14:02, 7 August 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks. Well since plans for Veracruz, Kolkata and Tashkent were binned . . . GS

The Wikivoyage Barncompass
This Barncompass is to show appreciation for your hard work on Sarajevo. -- 08:49, 18 August 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Buses in County Clare[edit]

I am interested where you got your info about the buses in - amongst others - Kilfenora and Milltown Malbay. What you have stated there is so utterly wrong, that is in my opinion vandalism. That bus travels 5 days a week, on working days, from Doonbeg to Ennis. Not once a week. And the Clare Bus drives once a week, on Saturdays, from Milltown Malbay to Ennis.

Spanish Point is not only a headland but also a tiny village/hamlet. And not consisting of "drab concrete bungalows, caravan parks and food outlets". Etcetera, etcetera The Banner (talk) 19:53, 29 October 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The Banner, if you have better information, please update the page, and any others you notice. I have recorded the best info available at the time of editing. I happened to look back at those bus routes a few days ago, in cause the sparse service was a temporary effect of covid. showed M-F service as you describe but other sites didn't, eg Bus Eireann showed no service at all, so I made no change. Grahamsands (talk) 09:43, 30 October 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
See here. Still Monday to Friday, but only 25% capacity. The Banner (talk) 19:01, 2 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm moving this conversation to Miltown page as there are other povs, and your edits were unconstructive. Grahamsands (talk) 08:42, 3 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
They have changed the bus schedules. I hope you are willing to correct your mistakes. Multiple runs per day, seven days a week: timetable. Good luck. The Banner (talk) 14:12, 24 January 2021 (UTC) And the bus stops nearly in front of the window of my house.Reply[reply]
I moved conversation to Miltown page as before. Grahamsands (talk) 10:38, 26 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Irish Waterways...[edit]

Do you know anything about them?

The obvious itinerary article would be on the Shannon Navigation, but Irish cites and region seem to be your area :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:24, 11 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've only looked at the two ends of the network, in County Dublin and the lower Shannon. Waterways Ireland seems to be the definitive source for anything navigable, but they don't cover non-navigable stretches that might still be interesting for walks, wildlife and history. Any info you turn up, consider posting it on the relevant county pages while you decide if there's enough for a themed page. Regards - Grahamsands (talk) 16:01, 12 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Hi Graham. What's the deal with this? The article I cited talks about there being 2,000 plant species in Istanbul Province, but you've changed it twice to Istanbul city, even though we've got an Istanbul Province article. What am I missing? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:34, 17 December 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Apparently Turkey some time ago abolished the province or made it co-extensive with the city. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:35, 17 December 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That's it exactly, see Turkey-talk. Since 2005 Istanbul city contains all of the former Province, and those pages were amended in 2018, but three obsolete pages were not cleared and redirected. I'm now tidying links preparatory to completing that. We could say "in Istanbul city, which now covers yeh miles east-west". Grahamsands (talk) 15:44, 17 December 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Ah OK. Thanks for the two quick answers. Need any help tidying links? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:52, 17 December 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
All done and redirected. Grahamsands (talk) 16:52, 17 December 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Nice one :) Teşekkür ederim --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:42, 17 December 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image sizes[edit]

I note you changed image sizes in a couple of articles. In at least one case you changed default size to a fixed size. The default size is user configurable – and configurable by wiki. So if you think the default size is too small overall, it is better to discuss in the pub and change the default than abandoning it and have users change absolute sizes back and forth depending on what the images look like on their devices. With default sizes (or sizes relative the default, using the upright= parameter), logged in user – such as you – can change to larger or smaller images depending on preferences or current needs. –LPfi (talk) 06:51, 26 April 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for alerting me, because I was indeed wondering how optimizing for my own view might play out on other devices. Can you point me to the page where all this is explained? It was pure ignorance if I changed a default: I've lifted many images from wikipedia or W: commons, and am guessing they follow identical conventions. Grahamsands (talk) 08:08, 27 April 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I am afraid there is not much here, except a suite of discussions in Wikivoyage talk:Image policy/archive_2014-2019#Sizing of images. Wikivoyage:Image policy only says "When displayed, pictures can be automatically scaled to smaller thumbnails; see Wikivoyage:How to add an image for details." and the linked page tells the syntax and the effects (I doubt the description is correct). Wikipedia has a more thorough policy at Wikipedia:Image use policy#Displayed image size and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images#Size, with a little commentary at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility#Images. A manual can be found on Meta, but is says little that is relevant here. –LPfi (talk) 16:26, 27 April 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Their main policy says "Except with very good reason, do not use px (e.g. |thumb|300px), which forces a fixed image width measured in pixels, disregarding the user's image size preference setting." –LPfi (talk) 16:32, 27 April 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Commons is different, as it is all about images and other media. There the size on category and file description pages are much more important than default thumbnail size when manually inserted (on gallery pages, and meta pages such as talk and policy pages). And I support galleries mostly use the <gallery> syntax. –LPfi (talk) 16:35, 27 April 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Well, this is a conundrum, isn't it? Images are crucial to WV readership, they need developing just as much as the text does, so contributors should plunge forward and edit both . . . but if there's no pithy guidance? My "very good reason" for px is that I find it so common on WV and W that it constitutes an informal standard - 250px is commonest but there are plenty of examples of 300px and others. Could you formulate something to discuss in the pub - short and sweet and cross-reffing those sources? Grahamsands (talk) 20:39, 28 April 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I read most of the old WV discussion and pages linked from there. It seems the discussion was inconclusive. A crucial step was to set the default to a good value, but the WMF server crew turned down a similar request from he-voy because of server load considerations. If nothing has changed since then, thumbnails are cached for eternity, taking up quite some disk space, and creating thumbnails in new sizes use significant CPU power. Having different defaults on WV than on WP increases the amount of thumbnails to create and keep.
Performance-wise there is no difference between an odd default size or the same given in px or a scaling factor, but the maintainers did not listen to that argument, I suppose they believe most images are still served at default size.
Given the frustrating somewhat unclear situation, I am not prepared to make the effort needed to form an informed consensus in the pub.
LPfi (talk) 12:20, 8 May 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hadrian's Wall..[edit]

"Certain sites on Hadrian's Wall are in upland terrain, and can be somewhat exposed. Dress accordingly with appropriate footwear."

Is this obvious though? I seem to recall it being VERY windy at exposed at one site. No one wonder the ancient Roman soldiers were complaining about cold-feet in letters home :lol:

Do you think you could review this article? You seem to be good at writing based on past experiencing. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:49, 5 May 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

See the Talk page - the piece needs development but the structure looks alright. Grahamsands (talk) 10:46, 6 May 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Revision 4,200,000[edit]

Congratulations on getting revision 4,200,000! 20:56, 6 May 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]


In the UK? I think they call it "football" there, in line with many other countries. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 20:42, 2 June 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Correct, I'm trying to avoid ambiguity for an international readership while avoiding "Captain Obvious". Grahamsands (talk) 20:51, 2 June 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"Diversion also affects.."?[edit]

Did you plant to include this note in Driving in the United Kingdom as well? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:06, 7 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I didn't, it's less often a feature of the other nations' roads, but almost routine on England's busy motorways. Grahamsands (talk) 13:36, 7 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I will note here, though that some rural roads in mountainous parts of the UK can be closed in bad weather. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:07, 9 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
(Talk page stalker) Particularly in Scotland and northern England. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:22, 9 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That's only occasionally in bad weather on the upland minor roads - they're fairly good about keeping the main roads open. What more often closes roads is the horrible smash an hour or so ago, where police and fire are still scraping some poor sod out of his van, and the tailbacks grow for miles. Visitors would understand this, but might be startled to see "road closed" flashing over the M25 as they drive away from Gatwick, hence the input. Grahamsands (talk) 12:25, 9 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Underground works..[edit]

Can you think of any significant ones with respect to articles you've been developing recently? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:31, 23 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That page intro needs to clarify what’s in or out of scope, else every sub-street shopping mall, basement parking lot, metro station and bierkeller will be in. What about cavernous spaces where light gets in, eg Petra, or the “minus temple” of Ahmedabad? Prehistoric souterrains? The Titan missile base near Tucson? The Budapest catacombs? The page on nuclear tourism looks to be missing Command Bunkers such as Pittodrie. Other impressive military tunnels include Gibraltar and Jersey. Looks like coal and ore mines are already covered in “mining tourism”. Have fun! Grahamsands (talk) 20:53, 23 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hmm, can you come up with some notability criteria, or help re-write the lede to make the scope clearer?

My view was...

  • Open to the public without major access issues ( so obscure arechological sites requiring urbex/ spelunking are probably not in scope)
  • Signifcant - Petra would be, a single cellar in a provincial city less so.

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:10, 24 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The Missile base goes in Nuclear Tourism, as would command bunkers now open to the public. I think splitting the other 'Millitary' stuff to Fortifications would be appropriate, although I'#d keep the Cabinet War Rooms, here, as it's a major historical site in London. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:18, 24 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hmm the lede on Fortifications should probably be clarfied to say it's not just iron age or medieval stuff. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:39, 24 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I don't think moving stuff like Dora Mittelbau is a wise move. It's really not a "fortification" in any sense of the word imho Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:10, 24 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Reverted that change. Thanks for the input. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:38, 24 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Helping out enough?[edit]

Just wondering if I am of any help? Highjumpermsu (talk) 15:26, 31 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Only you can decide how much time to put in on WV, given everything else you need to do. Grahamsands (talk) 17:05, 31 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

HTML anchors[edit]

You removed the {{anchor}} to inland waterways in Ireland#By boat. Was it by mistake, or have you redirected links to some better place? I don't know any easy way to check that such links don't remain, as what links here only asks for the page, and Ireland of course has lots of inlinks. –LPfi (talk) 15:01, 29 October 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Mistake, apols. Please point me at the page that explains what an anchor does or does not do. Grahamsands (talk) 15:14, 29 October 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No worries. The template documentation (linked above) should explain it, but it might not be very clear, so let's try here: You can link to a specific place in an HTML document (such as our articles), if and only if that place in the document has an identifier to use. The headings at Wikivoyage get identifiers automatically (so you can link Ireland#By boat), as do listings with a Wikidata parameter (Cork#Q6536591), but otherwise anchors need to be inserted by hand. I assume our anchor template inserts the HTML code <a name="whatever">whatever</a> (where "whatever" is the template parameter). In this case the anchor might have been inserted when removing a subheading, not to break existing links. –LPfi (talk) 15:38, 29 October 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Topics on British Ancient Monuments?[edit]

I found that Internet Archive had a set of maps produced in the 1930's to 1960's by the the UK Ordnance Survey.

Is there anything in them that's usable or inspiration for topics on Wikivoyage? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:44, 8 December 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That link is broken, but I routinely use old OS maps to improve locations and descriptions of monuments and natural features. These maps are copyright and not on the public internet, but there are backdoor entrances. WV has pages on (eg) Ancient Rome, Ancient Mesopotamia, etc . . but trying to create one for Britain was the reason the ancient Britons never got around to fixing the roof and double glazing for Stonehenge. Grahamsands (talk) 10:00, 8 December 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The link works for me... I linked the IA hosted maps because they appear to date to the mid 1960's (and thus are potentially an expired crown copyright). ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:04, 8 December 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Ab alternative source of old maps, including old OS maps is the National Library of Scotland. AlasdairW (talk) 23:22, 9 December 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Please stop[edit]

Graham, a three-minute event that is two years away should not be the first thing listed in See in every effing article. It probably should not be spammed across the continent, but if you are going by do so, please put it as the last item. A solar eclipse seen across the a wide swath of the continent is not the most important point of interest in any place. Ground Zero (talk) 00:59, 11 February 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This task is complete so I have no more entries to make for 2024. And I disagree, the eclipse will be the most wonderful sight in, say, Cleveland for many a long year. So it deserves prominence tho I don't care where it's placed. The position of this entry is not the most glaring defect in the 550+ pages it graces, so if I've drawn editorial attention to those, that's a useful spin-off. Two years ahead is a good time to start planning to see it. I am pencilling in 9 April 2024 to remove all 550+ and stand-up the entries for 2026 in Spain. Grahamsands (talk) 08:45, 11 February 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Are you saying that this US the biggest thing to see in New Hampshire, and Maine, and Indiana? I hope that you can understand that what is most interesting to you is not what is most interesting to other people. Putting the focus on this one event across 550 (!) articles makes Wikivoyage less interesting because of the repetition. These should all be moved to the bottom of the list. Will you help me do that? Ground Zero (talk) 11:40, 11 February 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The biggest thing is exactly what I am saying this will briefly be for Martinsville IN, Northfield OH, Texarkana TX (or if you prefer AR) and hundreds of other places. By no stretch of the imagination does a two-line entry that is succinct and informative, albeit stereotyped, upset the page balance. Indeed, it would be a poor guide that failed to mention it. This eclipse happens to cross a populous area so there are lots of entries. The criterion is whether many readers / travellers are likely to be interested, not whether you or I are personally, and I judge that they will be. Look at the lamentable condition of many of those pages, and the work they merit - faffing around with the position of one particular listing cannot be a sensible priority. Grahamsands (talk) 14:37, 11 February 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm just coming across these entries now, and I agree with @Ground Zero that they are out-of-scope for Wikivoyage because they do not provide information specific to the place. If they had been made using a template that was programmed to remove itself after the date of the eclipse, I'd grudgingly tolerate them and remove them ad hoc. Given that that was not done, I'm in favor of mass removal. Consensus should have been sought for such a large-scale edit, and I highly doubt it would've been found. Sdkb (talk) 06:00, 22 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Please see the discussion on the eclipse talk page, which addresses these points. Grahamsands (talk) 08:39, 22 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for pointing me to that; I've commented there to try to keep things centralized. Sdkb (talk) 20:51, 22 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

April 1st 2022[edit]

Hi, As you've been most helpful in reviewing my efforts in the past, I was wondering if you would care to copyedit and do some additional world-building on a draft I had in my userspace.

The article is User:ShakespeareFan00/Da'nunder

Given that as far as I know there was no feedback on the other suggested April 1st suggestions, I did not want to think I was writing it all by myself. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:32, 10 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for the invite. This piece has possibilities; I don't myself intend to join in for a jest article for one day only, when so many real places are needing edits of long-term value. At a quick read, it's sort of Australia but a one-joke concept lacking surreal twists and surprises. Maybe to "Get Around" you get swallowed by an AmoeBus, and admire the view while tumbling within a vacuole? Maybe to "Go Next" you visit Da'nunder's Moon 3, to check if it really is the most dismal place in the universe? Good luck with it anyhow. Grahamsands (talk) 17:54, 13 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
April 1st articles, don't have to be surreal, They can also be clever research (like the one on East Berlin was) or world building. But I'll acceept your views on wanting to concentrate on genuine destinations. For example, the article on Caves is lacking an entire continent at present..ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:20, 13 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Da'nuder was my attempt to world build a plausible 'off-world' destination, that did something other than use Trek tropes. You are correct that it's drawing in Australian tropes rather than American ones to a large extent. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:25, 13 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]



Could you also take a look at the Underground works and Mines coverage, the warning about 'bad air' is certainly applicable to abandoned mine workings as well, and to some ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:27, 17 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Timestamp for prices[edit]

Hey, could you please add a timestamps for a price that you update?

So users know that the prices are up to date. As many stated prices on Wikivoyage are outdated and up to 19 years old.

Like for this edit: Flightnavigator (talk) 10:18, 24 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Right right, I normally do, but this example was an interim post for a route not yet on sale. I plan to overhaul all prices on Turkish trains on Tuesday Yes Done, as there's been another price hike. regards Grahamsands (talk) 12:21, 24 April 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

5G as of ...[edit]

Hey. regarding "As of May 2022, Wimbledon has 5G from all UK carriers." and similar sentences.

The "as of [month and year]" is mainly used for things that may change in the upcoming years, or for things that may become outdated in the near-term. e.g. for prices.

The 5G coverage by all major carriers of a country is not likely to change in the upcoming years. That's why it's not necessary to give the sentence a timestamp. Flightnavigator (talk) 22:42, 3 May 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It is great that Graham is giving us updated info on coverage. I think that it is very useful to have the timestamp in places with poorer coverage, e.g. in Stornoway, it is useful to have "As of March 2022, Stornoway has 4G from EE, which extends along the island roads. You might get a signal in town from Three or Vodafone, but nothing from O2. 5G has not yet reached Lewis and Harris." It is useful to know that O2 still hasn't arrived (and this is recent info). AlasdairW (talk) 20:09, 4 May 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I did consider omiting the date stamp when there was 5G from all carriers, but who's to say when they'll invent something else? Simpler to add four brief words than to forecast technology or market exit / entry of carriers. I take this info from nperf, but it's only valid for "western" systems where usage is published via a state agency. I've given up on China where they don't, and have misgivings about others such as Egypt. You lot are clearly more coverage-savvy than I am, so I'd especially welcome your input there. Grahamsands (talk) 12:58, 5 May 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Something a bit niche but relevant to RV/Caravans...[edit]

Whilst looking into something else, I found this :-

It's relatively recent meaning that existing signs will not have it. However, given that the sign symbols been added to secondary legislation it will start to be used at some point.

Is there an article to which the new symbol would be relevant? We don't exactly have an article on RV touring in Scotland. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:30, 9 May 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

A bit niche as you say, not obvious that it needs mentioning. Grahamsands (talk)

Please can you use listing templates?[edit]

Hi Graham. You know I admire both the quality and quantity of your contributions across so much of Wikivoyage. But when adding new POIs to articles, please can you consistently use the appropriate listing template? It's designed so that all relevant fields can be easily added and changed, including lat+long co-ordinates so the POI is mapped, and even has a built-in 'last updated' tag which is invaluable to travelling readers and editors alike.

When adding a duplicate 'pointer' to the main listing (e.g. a restaurant with rooms whose main listing is under 'Eat', but deserves a mention under 'Sleep'), I can see the arguments for a plain text listing (avoid giving undue prominence, lat+long markers that conflict with each other, repeating information unnecessarily etc.), but otherwise I think you should follow the established WV style, as outlined by Wikivoyage:Listings. This also builds a visual coherence across the travel guide, rather than the impression that different article authors do their own things.

If you any problems or concerns about using the template, I'd be happy to help in any way I can.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:17, 11 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I do consider in each and every case, and when I depart from style it's for a cogent reason. Some common reasons are
- the priority is to get places on the record any which way (typically my summary is "named some".) Spending longer on any one would be at the expense of a dozen others.
- the place is already listed, eg restaurant within a hotel.
- the info is not time sensitive, so at best it merits a marker, and not even that if it's low-order and obscures more important markers.
You may be able to help with some numbers. Number of listings in the entire WV universe (or country of your choice) is about what? Divide by five, since to be credible they need updating not less than every five years. Total edits pa in that universe or country is what? Rising or declining? My impression from just about everywhere I look is that there's not just a shortfall, but it's by orders of magnitude. If so, more of the same won't do, and WV needs different approaches. Grahamsands (talk) 13:59, 11 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for explaining. I have no doubt you're a conscientious editor, but I still think you should reconsider your approach. WV as a whole will only change its approach through policy change, which you are of course welcome to advocate for.
To your first point, it doesn't take that much longer to insert the listing template than it does to type bare text. If you've got a lot to do on a particular day, you don't have to fill in every field; you (or someone else) can fill in those details later, but it's a lot easier to do so if the template is already there and waiting to be filled. By spending an extra minute at most per listing to insert the correct template, you'll save yourself or someone else two or three minutes down the line, which is how long it can take to transform baretext info into a listing format.
Your second point, I already addressed and accepted as valid.
Your third point doesn't reflect what we do on WV; typically, either something is worth a listing, in which case it gets one, or it's not, and doesn't even get mentioned. There are a couple of exceptions, but not many. For POIs that are in the public realm and don't involve anything of the visitor except to turn up, gawp for two minutes and move on (e.g. a statue, a building that you can only see from outside), we can use markers. I have occasionally done the same for ice cream stands or cafes in parks; it merits a mention within the park listings, but isn't suitable for the 'Eat' section. But in the vast majority of cases, all attractions, eateries, pubs and accommodation should have proper templated listings.
I also don't really know what you mean by "not time sensitive" when it comes to Eat listings, as restaurants do change their menus, hours, and prices all the time, and also fail and get replaced with alarming regularity, so having a last updated marker is vital.
And you're right, we do lack editors. The numbers are growing, but not as quickly as we would like. However, I always think wiki editors start as readers, and in that context first impressions matter, which is why a messy jumble of listing styles is something to avoid if possible (and it eminently is possible here). Exactly the same volume of info, formatted properly and consistently, will always look better.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:43, 11 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Surely we all seek to boost readership hence contributions. We may hold overlapping hypotheses on how best to do so; some numbers may help but I don't know how to seek. Those I enquired for above relate to the sustainability of what is already listed. The other half is building what is missing. This calls for some guesswork - G1, the number of Outline pages may be a fair approximation. G2, the average number of entries to bring a page to standard, might be 10 true listings and 10 others. G1 x G2 is what is missing, divide by five if all were done over a 5 year cycle then added to the maintenance workload above. For region of your choice - Italy looks like a mid-quality example. If such numbers involve great effort to extract, then WV lacks an important reality check to anchor its discussions. Grahamsands (talk) 13:32, 12 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I feel like you're trying to change the subject to something that might be important but isn't the subject at hand. It takes almost no extra time to insert a minimally-filled listing template than it does to write a minimally-filled plain text listing. I would sincerely appreciate it if you used the listing template consistently from now on, out of respect for the conventions on this website and to make easier the work of other Wikivoyagers who edit after you. Thanks, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:47, 12 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Our positions have become polarised. I sought numbers as a factual basis: the few I’ve collated may help.
Naples is guide status, with 118 full listings and only a handful of others. I guess it needs 25+ edits per year to stand still and continue to merit its status. It had 9 in half-year 22, 11 in 21, 16 in 20, 39 in 19, 452 in 18 (when it was blitzed by Pepemanuele) and 64 in 17.
Sorrento is medium-grade usable. It has 42 scrappy listings and 16 markers and others. So it needs 12+ edits per year to maintain the present mediocrity plus a one-off 50 to shape up. It had 2022=0, 21=10, 20=9, 19=27, 18=11, 17=4.
La Spezia is outline, ten listings and two markers. Two edits per year would maintain this nullity, but a one-off 50+ might lift it to good-usable. It had 2022=9 (all mine), 21=0 (though 26 in IT-WV), 20=9, 19=1, 18=2, 17=1.
Several interpretations are possible. Mine is that when the task is just to update existing material, there’s a shortfall compatible with a covid slump which is recovering. Whether material is formatted as a listing or otherwise makes no visible difference to contributions, though this sample is too small to tell.
But when we look at building up inadequate pages, the shortfall is by an order of magnitude, and those pages are the majority. Naples Metropolis has 14 pages (excluding 4 red-links but including the regional page) of which 7 are poor-grade. Liguria has 14 poor-grade out of 18. Reckon at least 20 edits apiece to remedy. This is beyond any casual contributor, and they’re doomed to remain inadequate unless blitzed by a hyper-active editor, who will hardly be fazed by the format of the existing material. If any such shows up, best stand back and give him / her a free run.
I picked Italy as likely to be mid-quality. Any individual example may prove atypical so I wonder about figures on a wider scale. These may not be feasible to gather, but WV needs this kind of reality check. It also needs to retain its most active members. Grahamsands (talk) 13:51, 16 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

removed coordinates[edit]


I saw that you removed the accurate coordinates of the restaurants in the Neum article. Could you write why?

I also saw that you shortened coordinates to 4 positions after the decimal point. E.g. 42.9240355 -> 42.9240

Actually it takes the 7 digits after the decimal point to accurately determine a place. Using only 4 digits shows a wrong destination.

See Wikipedia "Decimal degrees": a coordinate to four decimal places is accurate to 11 m at the equator, homing in to 7.87 m at 45 N / S, which is plenty good enough for travel purposes. Further "accuracy" in this context is spurious, given the inexactitude of picking up positions, say from Google Map. At some point you have to look up from your phone at what's there, rather than pursue the seventh decimal place which is leading you up the drainpipe rather than into the lobby.
Where coods were removed, it's because others were added that were more travel-critical, yet were being crowded out on the map view. So for example in Neum if you see Hotel Sunce, then you can't fail to spot the parking lot and cluster of restaurants at its foot. Grahamsands (talk) 19:54, 4 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
There are only 8 restaurants in the listing. So it won't be too crowded on the map with all pins of them. It helps the reader to see on the map where a restaurant is. The reader can still zoom in to let it look less crowded.
Another thing you did it is removing the mapframe from the Neum article?! Now the reader cannot see anymore the map of the town on first hand.
Ah you moved the mapframe to Get in / By plane. But why? There is no airport really nearby of Neum. And there is no pin on the map showing an airport.
Smartphone-readers of Wikivoyage expect the mapframe to be on the top of "Get around" (or on the top of "Get in" or "See"). Because in the mobile view you don't scroll down the whole content of an article. Instead mobile readers open sections they'd like to read about and get the impression there is no mapframe at all, if it's not on the top of "Get around".
The peculiarity of Neum is that folk are thinking about getting out before they get in, so I wanted to explain all that at the outset. There was also a malformat in the mapframe. I've re-jigged somewhat, does that look clearer now? There are only a handful of restaurants, but they are cheek by jowl, locate the one down Tomislava and you locate the lot. Grahamsands (talk) 12:06, 5 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You come across the Falkirk triangle?[edit]

It was claimed in the mid 1990's that Flakirk and Bonnybridge were a UFO hotspot...

As you had a certain style with the Loch Ness and Clitheroe articlse, perhaps you might be the person to add suitable content to the relevant destinations, if appropriate. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:26, 16 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I think it's bunkum; I'm unaware of recent "sightings" so whoever was claiming this has moved elsewhere. I'm generally scathing of ghost stories (there's always a down-at-heel hotel touting them) and UFOs belong in the same bag. See Dumbarton and Boyle for examples where the local legend can be enjoyed by present-day readers, but we shouldn't collude with flaky fabrications. The persecution of "witches" by contrast was all too real. Grahamsands (talk) 19:11, 16 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]