User talk:Grahamsands

The culprit

Hello, Grahamsands! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. If you are familiar with Wikipedia, take a look over some of the differences here.

Thanks for all your edits so far!

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:18, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Conversations 2017 - 2021 have been archived.

To be precise, they were swallowed by a goat in some strange country, and the text compacted into a dense dark material, probably some sort of organic USB stick. Grahamsands (talk) 14:40, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Please stop

Graham, a three-minute event that is two years away should not be the first thing listed in See in every effing article. It probably should not be spammed across the continent, but if you are going by do so, please put it as the last item. A solar eclipse seen across the a wide swath of the continent is not the most important point of interest in any place. Ground Zero (talk) 00:59, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

This task is complete so I have no more entries to make for 2024. And I disagree, the eclipse will be the most wonderful sight in, say, Cleveland for many a long year. So it deserves prominence tho I don't care where it's placed. The position of this entry is not the most glaring defect in the 550+ pages it graces, so if I've drawn editorial attention to those, that's a useful spin-off. Two years ahead is a good time to start planning to see it. I am pencilling in 9 April 2024 to remove all 550+ and stand-up the entries for 2026 in Spain. Grahamsands (talk) 08:45, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Are you saying that this US the biggest thing to see in New Hampshire, and Maine, and Indiana? I hope that you can understand that what is most interesting to you is not what is most interesting to other people. Putting the focus on this one event across 550 (!) articles makes Wikivoyage less interesting because of the repetition. These should all be moved to the bottom of the list. Will you help me do that? Ground Zero (talk) 11:40, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

The biggest thing is exactly what I am saying this will briefly be for Martinsville IN, Northfield OH, Texarkana TX (or if you prefer AR) and hundreds of other places. By no stretch of the imagination does a two-line entry that is succinct and informative, albeit stereotyped, upset the page balance. Indeed, it would be a poor guide that failed to mention it. This eclipse happens to cross a populous area so there are lots of entries. The criterion is whether many readers / travellers are likely to be interested, not whether you or I are personally, and I judge that they will be. Look at the lamentable condition of many of those pages, and the work they merit - faffing around with the position of one particular listing cannot be a sensible priority. Grahamsands (talk) 14:37, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm just coming across these entries now, and I agree with @Ground Zero that they are out-of-scope for Wikivoyage because they do not provide information specific to the place. If they had been made using a template that was programmed to remove itself after the date of the eclipse, I'd grudgingly tolerate them and remove them ad hoc. Given that that was not done, I'm in favor of mass removal. Consensus should have been sought for such a large-scale edit, and I highly doubt it would've been found. Sdkb (talk) 06:00, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Please see the discussion on the eclipse talk page, which addresses these points. Grahamsands (talk) 08:39, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing me to that; I've commented there to try to keep things centralized. Sdkb (talk) 20:51, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

April 1st 2022

Hi, As you've been most helpful in reviewing my efforts in the past, I was wondering if you would care to copyedit and do some additional world-building on a draft I had in my userspace.

The article is User:ShakespeareFan00/Da'nunder

Given that as far as I know there was no feedback on the other suggested April 1st suggestions, I did not want to think I was writing it all by myself. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:32, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the invite. This piece has possibilities; I don't myself intend to join in for a jest article for one day only, when so many real places are needing edits of long-term value. At a quick read, it's sort of Australia but a one-joke concept lacking surreal twists and surprises. Maybe to "Get Around" you get swallowed by an AmoeBus, and admire the view while tumbling within a vacuole? Maybe to "Go Next" you visit Da'nunder's Moon 3, to check if it really is the most dismal place in the universe? Good luck with it anyhow. Grahamsands (talk) 17:54, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

April 1st articles, don't have to be surreal, They can also be clever research (like the one on East Berlin was) or world building. But I'll acceept your views on wanting to concentrate on genuine destinations. For example, the article on Caves is lacking an entire continent at present..ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:20, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Da'nuder was my attempt to world build a plausible 'off-world' destination, that did something other than use Trek tropes. You are correct that it's drawing in Australian tropes rather than American ones to a large extent. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:25, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Caves...

Thanks..

Could you also take a look at the Underground works and Mines coverage, the warning about 'bad air' is certainly applicable to abandoned mine workings as well, and to some ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:27, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Timestamp for prices

Hey, could you please add a timestamps for a price that you update?

So users know that the prices are up to date. As many stated prices on Wikivoyage are outdated and up to 19 years old.

Like for this edit: https://en.m.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/4434486 Flightnavigator (talk) 10:18, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Right right, I normally do, but this example was an interim post for a route not yet on sale. I plan to overhaul all prices on Turkish trains on Tuesday Done, as there's been another price hike. regards Grahamsands (talk) 12:21, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

5G as of ...

Hey. regarding "As of May 2022, Wimbledon has 5G from all UK carriers." and similar sentences.

The "as of [month and year]" is mainly used for things that may change in the upcoming years, or for things that may become outdated in the near-term. e.g. for prices.

The 5G coverage by all major carriers of a country is not likely to change in the upcoming years. That's why it's not necessary to give the sentence a timestamp. Flightnavigator (talk) 22:42, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

It is great that Graham is giving us updated info on coverage. I think that it is very useful to have the timestamp in places with poorer coverage, e.g. in Stornoway, it is useful to have "As of March 2022, Stornoway has 4G from EE, which extends along the island roads. You might get a signal in town from Three or Vodafone, but nothing from O2. 5G has not yet reached Lewis and Harris." It is useful to know that O2 still hasn't arrived (and this is recent info). AlasdairW (talk) 20:09, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

I did consider omiting the date stamp when there was 5G from all carriers, but who's to say when they'll invent something else? Simpler to add four brief words than to forecast technology or market exit / entry of carriers. I take this info from nperf, but it's only valid for "western" systems where usage is published via a state agency. I've given up on China where they don't, and have misgivings about others such as Egypt. You lot are clearly more coverage-savvy than I am, so I'd especially welcome your input there. Grahamsands (talk) 12:58, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Something a bit niche but relevant to RV/Caravans...

Whilst looking into something else, I found this :- https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2022/111/regulation/7/made.

It's relatively recent meaning that existing signs will not have it. However, given that the sign symbols been added to secondary legislation it will start to be used at some point.

Is there an article to which the new symbol would be relevant? We don't exactly have an article on RV touring in Scotland. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:30, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

A bit niche as you say, not obvious that it needs mentioning. Grahamsands (talk)

Please can you use listing templates?

Hi Graham. You know I admire both the quality and quantity of your contributions across so much of Wikivoyage. But when adding new POIs to articles, please can you consistently use the appropriate listing template? It's designed so that all relevant fields can be easily added and changed, including lat+long co-ordinates so the POI is mapped, and even has a built-in 'last updated' tag which is invaluable to travelling readers and editors alike.

When adding a duplicate 'pointer' to the main listing (e.g. a restaurant with rooms whose main listing is under 'Eat', but deserves a mention under 'Sleep'), I can see the arguments for a plain text listing (avoid giving undue prominence, lat+long markers that conflict with each other, repeating information unnecessarily etc.), but otherwise I think you should follow the established WV style, as outlined by Wikivoyage:Listings. This also builds a visual coherence across the travel guide, rather than the impression that different article authors do their own things.

If you any problems or concerns about using the template, I'd be happy to help in any way I can.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:17, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

I do consider in each and every case, and when I depart from style it's for a cogent reason. Some common reasons are

- the priority is to get places on the record any which way (typically my summary is "named some".) Spending longer on any one would be at the expense of a dozen others.

- the place is already listed, eg restaurant within a hotel.

- the info is not time sensitive, so at best it merits a marker, and not even that if it's low-order and obscures more important markers.

You may be able to help with some numbers. Number of listings in the entire WV universe (or country of your choice) is about what? Divide by five, since to be credible they need updating not less than every five years. Total edits pa in that universe or country is what? Rising or declining? My impression from just about everywhere I look is that there's not just a shortfall, but it's by orders of magnitude. If so, more of the same won't do, and WV needs different approaches. Grahamsands (talk) 13:59, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining. I have no doubt you're a conscientious editor, but I still think you should reconsider your approach. WV as a whole will only change its approach through policy change, which you are of course welcome to advocate for.

To your first point, it doesn't take that much longer to insert the listing template than it does to type bare text. If you've got a lot to do on a particular day, you don't have to fill in every field; you (or someone else) can fill in those details later, but it's a lot easier to do so if the template is already there and waiting to be filled. By spending an extra minute at most per listing to insert the correct template, you'll save yourself or someone else two or three minutes down the line, which is how long it can take to transform baretext info into a listing format.

Your second point, I already addressed and accepted as valid.

Your third point doesn't reflect what we do on WV; typically, either something is worth a listing, in which case it gets one, or it's not, and doesn't even get mentioned. There are a couple of exceptions, but not many. For POIs that are in the public realm and don't involve anything of the visitor except to turn up, gawp for two minutes and move on (e.g. a statue, a building that you can only see from outside), we can use markers. I have occasionally done the same for ice cream stands or cafes in parks; it merits a mention within the park listings, but isn't suitable for the 'Eat' section. But in the vast majority of cases, all attractions, eateries, pubs and accommodation should have proper templated listings.

I also don't really know what you mean by "not time sensitive" when it comes to Eat listings, as restaurants do change their menus, hours, and prices all the time, and also fail and get replaced with alarming regularity, so having a last updated marker is vital.

And you're right, we do lack editors. The numbers are growing, but not as quickly as we would like. However, I always think wiki editors start as readers, and in that context first impressions matter, which is why a messy jumble of listing styles is something to avoid if possible (and it eminently is possible here). Exactly the same volume of info, formatted properly and consistently, will always look better.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:43, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Surely we all seek to boost readership hence contributions. We may hold overlapping hypotheses on how best to do so; some numbers may help but I don't know how to seek. Those I enquired for above relate to the sustainability of what is already listed. The other half is building what is missing. This calls for some guesswork - G1, the number of Outline pages may be a fair approximation. G2, the average number of entries to bring a page to standard, might be 10 true listings and 10 others. G1 x G2 is what is missing, divide by five if all were done over a 5 year cycle then added to the maintenance workload above. For region of your choice - Italy looks like a mid-quality example. If such numbers involve great effort to extract, then WV lacks an important reality check to anchor its discussions. Grahamsands (talk) 13:32, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

I feel like you're trying to change the subject to something that might be important but isn't the subject at hand. It takes almost no extra time to insert a minimally-filled listing template than it does to write a minimally-filled plain text listing. I would sincerely appreciate it if you used the listing template consistently from now on, out of respect for the conventions on this website and to make easier the work of other Wikivoyagers who edit after you. Thanks, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:47, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Our positions have become polarised. I sought numbers as a factual basis: the few I’ve collated may help.

Naples is guide status, with 118 full listings and only a handful of others. I guess it needs 25+ edits per year to stand still and continue to merit its status. It had 9 in half-year 22, 11 in 21, 16 in 20, 39 in 19, 452 in 18 (when it was blitzed by Pepemanuele) and 64 in 17.

Sorrento is medium-grade usable. It has 42 scrappy listings and 16 markers and others. So it needs 12+ edits per year to maintain the present mediocrity plus a one-off 50 to shape up. It had 2022=0, 21=10, 20=9, 19=27, 18=11, 17=4.

La Spezia is outline, ten listings and two markers. Two edits per year would maintain this nullity, but a one-off 50+ might lift it to good-usable. It had 2022=9 (all mine), 21=0 (though 26 in IT-WV), 20=9, 19=1, 18=2, 17=1.

Several interpretations are possible. Mine is that when the task is just to update existing material, there’s a shortfall compatible with a covid slump which is recovering. Whether material is formatted as a listing or otherwise makes no visible difference to contributions, though this sample is too small to tell.

But when we look at building up inadequate pages, the shortfall is by an order of magnitude, and those pages are the majority. Naples Metropolis has 14 pages (excluding 4 red-links but including the regional page) of which 7 are poor-grade. Liguria has 14 poor-grade out of 18. Reckon at least 20 edits apiece to remedy. This is beyond any casual contributor, and they’re doomed to remain inadequate unless blitzed by a hyper-active editor, who will hardly be fazed by the format of the existing material. If any such shows up, best stand back and give him / her a free run.

I picked Italy as likely to be mid-quality. Any individual example may prove atypical so I wonder about figures on a wider scale. These may not be feasible to gather, but WV needs this kind of reality check. It also needs to retain its most active members. Grahamsands (talk) 13:51, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

removed coordinates

Hey.

I saw that you removed the accurate coordinates of the restaurants in the Neum article. Could you write why?

I also saw that you shortened coordinates to 4 positions after the decimal point. E.g. 42.9240355 -> 42.9240

Actually it takes the 7 digits after the decimal point to accurately determine a place. Using only 4 digits shows a wrong destination.

See Wikipedia "Decimal degrees": a coordinate to four decimal places is accurate to 11 m at the equator, homing in to 7.87 m at 45 N / S, which is plenty good enough for travel purposes. Further "accuracy" in this context is spurious, given the inexactitude of picking up positions, say from Google Map. At some point you have to look up from your phone at what's there, rather than pursue the seventh decimal place which is leading you up the drainpipe rather than into the lobby.

Where coods were removed, it's because others were added that were more travel-critical, yet were being crowded out on the map view. So for example in Neum if you see Hotel Sunce, then you can't fail to spot the parking lot and cluster of restaurants at its foot. Grahamsands (talk) 19:54, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

There are only 8 restaurants in the listing. So it won't be too crowded on the map with all pins of them. It helps the reader to see on the map where a restaurant is. The reader can still zoom in to let it look less crowded.

Another thing you did it is removing the mapframe from the Neum article?! Now the reader cannot see anymore the map of the town on first hand.

~~

Ah you moved the mapframe to Get in / By plane. But why? There is no airport really nearby of Neum. And there is no pin on the map showing an airport.

Smartphone-readers of Wikivoyage expect the mapframe to be on the top of "Get around" (or on the top of "Get in" or "See"). Because in the mobile view you don't scroll down the whole content of an article. Instead mobile readers open sections they'd like to read about and get the impression there is no mapframe at all, if it's not on the top of "Get around".

~~

The peculiarity of Neum is that folk are thinking about getting out before they get in, so I wanted to explain all that at the outset. There was also a malformat in the mapframe. I've re-jigged somewhat, does that look clearer now? There are only a handful of restaurants, but they are cheek by jowl, locate the one down Tomislava and you locate the lot. Grahamsands (talk) 12:06, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

You come across the Falkirk triangle?

It was claimed in the mid 1990's that Flakirk and Bonnybridge were a UFO hotspot...

As you had a certain style with the Loch Ness and Clitheroe articlse, perhaps you might be the person to add suitable content to the relevant destinations, if appropriate. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:26, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

I think it's bunkum; I'm unaware of recent "sightings" so whoever was claiming this has moved elsewhere. I'm generally scathing of ghost stories (there's always a down-at-heel hotel touting them) and UFOs belong in the same bag. See Dumbarton and Boyle for examples where the local legend can be enjoyed by present-day readers, but we shouldn't collude with flaky fabrications. The persecution of "witches" by contrast was all too real. Grahamsands (talk) 19:11, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

BoundCon disappeared?

In this edit in November 2022, you deleted the listing for BoundCon citing "disappeared". What do you mean, "disappeared"? The event seems to be still active, it will be held next time in June this year, see: https://www.boundcon.com/de/ JIP (talk) 10:57, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

That and similar weblinks appear broken, which was why I considered it disappeared - be sceptical of third-party listings if the main organiser's site can't be reached. Go ahead and add it back if you're reasonably confident it's happening. Grahamsands (talk) 13:07, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Question

Is Talk:Bordeaux#Go_players something you could answer? Pashley (talk) 20:45, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

DONE - GS

Cricket grounds?

I migrated this to the cricket talk page. - GS

Trinity House, Leith

Graham, please don't confuse this Trinity House with the English Trinity House that looks after lighthouses. This is the Leith trade guild, whose history goes back to King Robert 11 in 1380. Several mother UK port cities have Trinity Houses. AlasdairW (talk) 00:12, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, that solves the puzzle of why an English organisation would meddle in Scottish maritime business. I've added an explainer. Grahamsands (talk) 14:20, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Your removal of content

Hey,

regarding some of your edits:

https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Playa_Blanca&diff=prev&oldid=4778835

I cannot understand why you removed the price for the bus from the airport to the town, as that is something good to know. The link https://arrecifebus.com/?option=com_content&view=article&id=2389&lang=en is the official website of the bus company which gives additional up-to-date information.

https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Playa_Blanca&diff=prev&oldid=4778797

Again, I cannot see the reason why you removed the prices for the ferry.

https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Playa_Blanca&diff=prev&oldid=4780074

"Venezuelan budget food". Sounds kinda disrespectful for a restaurant with an accessible and well tasting offer. Of course it's budget, as it is in the according category. Lively writing is welcome per Wikivoyage:Tone: "Wikivoyage should celebrate travel, and you should feel free to share the adventure and excitement of the journey and the destination through your writing." Same goes for "the "bus station" is really just an undercover drop-off and bus parking lot". 80.187.73.122 10:45, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

On the contrary, on 27 - 29 Nov I updated the ferry prices on that page and the corresponding Fuerteventura city page. I updated several bus fares, but that particular bus serves multiple destinations and it seemed impractical to list them. By all means add those if you think it helpful, and ditto for the dozens of other places on Lanzarote that a visitor might go by bus, and in April the fares will probably all need a further update . . . d'you see the problem.

I fail to see how "Venezuelan budget food" is a disrespectful description of a place that serves Venezuelan budget food. Please add any description you think more apt. As for the bus station, the English word "just" in this context means "simply" and is not a value judgement. It's important for the traveller to understand how this "bus station" works, that's it's not the town terminus but just a drop-off for buses heading to the ferry pier. You didn't pick up on the jibe against the toilets, but that is from user reviews and likewise worth knowing. Celebrating travel - and Lanzarote is worth celebrating - IMO does not mean glossing over need-to-know negatives. Grahamsands (talk) 19:33, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Hm I think bus fares don't need constant updates if e.g.

• "(December 2023)" is added behind the price or
• "in 2023" is stated in the sentence or
• "(updated December 2023)" is added behind the whole paragraph.

Then the reader knows that the fare could be a bit higher at the point of time reading it.

Okay the ferry fares are now in "Get in".

Hm it's a bus station of a village. The roof provides shade for hot days. Plenty benches to sit on. Going by bus is a low price thing anyway: Can there be expected much from a bus station in a village? I couldn't find anything negative when having been there. I remember there were timetables providing information for travelers. On Google Maps the most often given ratings for this bus station are 5 star ratings. 80.187.73.122 21:30, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes just as you say, the date comment (however it's made) lets the reader know if the fare or other info is likely to be current, or maybe add a bit for inflation, or is way out. Sooner or later inexorably it is way, way out, and when I lit upon the LZ pages I found most content was prehistoric or absent. It needed blitzing, so I took a pragmatic view on what would help most readers soonest. If you are able to add more detail or to update, that is very welcome, as building a platform for future contributors is half the battle. And please weigh in on the other Canary Islands, where WV content is lamentable but I don't see myself contributing any time soon. Grahamsands (talk) 23:02, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Forres page House of Automata addition

Hi Graham. You seem to be the most active maintainer on the Forres page. My parents have a business, The House Of Automata (https://thehouseofautomata.com/), with a museum exhibition and small shop in the old premises of Stuart's Cycles. I think it would be a worthwhile addition to the Forres 'Do' section, but I've never edited a wiki page before, and am not sure if it's good etiquette to add my parents' business. If it's appropriate, could I ask you to consider adding them? Cheers. Arthur 2A00:23C8:7C10:7001:C0B0:C999:5F9D:2055 19:37, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Please do add it Arthur, I suggest in "See", it's fine to add practical info where you have a vested interest but don't tout. I'll do it myself if you struggle, but that way you learn how to edit for yourself. And welcome to WV. Yours aye - Grahamsands (talk) 19:57, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

No response so I added it myself. Grahamsands (talk) 15:20, 10 September 2024 (UTC)