User talk:Grahamsands

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Hello, Grahamsands! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. If you are familiar with Wikipedia, take a look over some of the differences here.

Thanks for all your edits so far!

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:18, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Ticket sales on trains in Finland[edit]

Hi and thanks for your edits. You've added to a couple of Finnish articles the fact that tickets are not sold onboard trains any longer. Ticket sales on the local trains in the Helsinki region (operated by HSL rather than the national rail company VR) were indeed terminated in June, but as far as I know (I very rarely travel by train) you can still buy tickets onboard all other trains. ϒpsilon (talk) 06:50, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

REPLY: Hi, from recent travel to Vaasa I had understood this rule also applied to VR mainline trains, but that may be my mistake. VR website doesn’t say anything about it, and they surely would publicise if there was a recent change of policy. In UK the rule is, you must buy a ticket in advance wherever it’s possible to do so; but some little stations have no facilities so it’s okay to hop on and pay the conductor. It’d be good to clarify this, as travellers arriving in Finland late at night may not be able to commit in advance to a particular train, and might not find open kiosks or functioning machines. Regards gs

FURTHER: email from VR confirms that you can still buy ticket aboard long distance trains. But not commuter trains - and some routes eg Helsinki-Tampere have both types of train. Grahamsands (talk) 09:46, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

"Get in" section renaming[edit]

Hi there, is there a specific reason why you renamed the "get in" section to "get around" on some of the Edinburgh district pages (here or here)? District articles normally have a "get in" section, but not a "get around" section: Wikivoyage:District_article_template.Xsobev (talk) 22:58, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Apols, I’ve reverted that. Obviously the distinction I was making was between reaching the city, which should be on the main page, and navigating a district. Some of the content seemed to me to be blurring the two. But it’s less obvious for the outer districts, which as minor transport hubs may have their own portals, so I left them be.
It’s the same argument in reverse for “Go next” – these should be on the main city page, and Edinburgh is especially well-connected. I couldn’t see the point of listing all the other city districts there, as these are more informatively set out just by clicking up the root to the city page. Grahamsands (talk) 11:58, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
If you are not familiar with the city, it may not be obvious that say Edinburgh/Stockbridge and Canonmills is immediately to the north of Edinburgh/New Town. I added the map and links in Go next to help readers navigate around (rather than two clicks to go via Edinburgh). An alternative would be a paragraph in Understand describing the boundaries of each district. See Talk:Edinburgh/New Town#Upgrade to "guide" status for an earlier discussion of this. AlasdairW (talk) 20:47, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for reverting to match the typical layout. I like the idea of describing which other districts are bordering the current one in a short paragraph either in the introduction text, the "understand" section, or maybe even better as intro text in the "get in" section (since not all district articles have an "understand" section). Xsobev (talk) 11:20, 29 September 2017 (UTC) P.S. @Grahamsands, what's your motivation to change the section headlines in the district "get in" sections from ===By bus=== to '''By bus:'''? I think the first way is more consistent with general use on Wikivoyage, and more clearly separates the information (for example, as traveler I might not be interested in taking buses, because I want to walk -- when having sections, I can easily ignore them, thus not wasting time when reading. Also having sections creates a menu item in the top bar (and in offline Wikivoyage smartphone apps) which makes navigation easier.)
Also, thanks very much in general for all your contributions to the Edinburgh page :)
The present district arrangement looks well, with the map and a short orientation near the top.
I have a preference, but wouldn't make a thing of it, of down-staging some sub-headers where there's barely a couple of lines of text, as they're disproportionate on the page. I was hoping this helps rather than hinders navigability, as the traveller is first searching for transport options rather than a specific modality, and lands on a more compact page view. Grahamsands (talk) 11:30, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Removal of listing templates[edit]

Please explain this edit, because I'm confused by it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:36, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

So, I've read the de-WV entries for "Events", fact-checked against other sources, and written into en-WV accordingly. It seemed simpler to do so in plain text in the first instance. They can convert into listings if that will be clearer, but it wasn't obvious to me that they would. Eg we don't have map refs. Grahamsands (talk) 22:46, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

The current absence of information is not IMO a good reason not to use a template that makes it simple for whoever has the info to add it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:03, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Hokay, I'll listify them in the next day or two. Grahamsands (talk) 23:22, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:55, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Time formatting[edit]

Thanks, as always, for your very useful updates on articles. It is easiest for readers if we use one time format per article, rather than changing from one format to another to another through an article. There are two used in Wikivoyage -- a 12-hour format (e.g. 9AM-noon, 2PM-6PM), and a 24-hour format (e.g. 09:00-13:00 and 14:00-18:00), and we try to use the format that is used in the country the article is about. This is set out in our style guide, WV:tdf. I hope that helps. Keep up the great work. Ground Zero (talk) 22:24, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Tell me about it! If I ever find an article with a consistent style I'll gladly hew to it . . . Grahamsands (talk) 08:53, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
Well, Alcalá de Henares had a consistent style before your edits. Appreciate the updates, though. Ground Zero (talk) 21:06, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
Hola GZ! The Alcalá entry, if I rightly recall, was previously consistent via the cunning ruse of showing very few opening hours at all.
Sometimes when editing I’m aware of a bot dogging my heels: is there not one that finds & tidies tdf infelicities? (Don Quixote routinely, and Sancho Panza often, and even sometimes their steeds, were repeatedly beaten up over similar infractions.) I’d be sad if anyone was painstakingly correcting my Sat-Sun to Sa Su, when they could be out travelling, or making the substantive edits that so many WV pages urgently need. Grahamsands (talk) 21:45, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
I'm sure you've heard that sarcasm is is the lowest form of wit. I've contributed more than enough content and created more than enough new articles here that it would be ludicrous for anyone to try to lecture me on how to contribute. Fortunately, I have the time and inclination also to improve the project by make it easier to read and easier for travellers to find information. When you said above that you would gladly hew to the style of an article where it was consistent, I took you at your word that you were not intentionally making articles more difficult for readers. More the fool me. Your considerable contributions to Wikivoyage make the guide better. With negligible effort, you could also make it easier to read and find information. Ground Zero (talk) 16:01, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Hey, please, it's not sarcasm. I genuinely don't want to create unnecessary work for other contributors, who I assume to be busy, experienced editors and travellers with lots else they need to be doing. Still less do I want anyone to feel jibed at, and I'm real sorry if I read that way. The WV formats are helpful and sensible, and I try to follow them. I don't altogether succeed but I notice various auto-format routines kicking in behind me and naturally wondered whether these included tdf. If they don't, I need to be more diligent there.

What I come back to is utility to the reader / traveller. How much grief does it cause the reader to find Mon-Fri instead of M-F, compared to finding no hours at all, incorrect hours, place closed down, content just a publicity blurb, or umpteen other glitches? I've seen several conversations on WV where format is championed with passion. Yet the collaboration can only have got this far thru equal passion to improve substantive content. Grahamsands (talk) 17:31, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

My apologies. There is no tdf bot. I thought that was a jibe, and accept that it wasn't. There is no question that content is more important than format. I'll gladly clean up the formatting of a newbie user and be happy that content was added. It's just that when regular contributors continually add incorrect formatting or change the formats I hope to cajole them into using the standard formats. Its also about improving the look of Wikivoyage to give it more credibility in the eyes of readers, and thereby draw more readers. But I have to work on finding more gentle ways of cajoling. The last thing I would want to do is discourage someone from adding content because of fussing over format. Best regards, Ground Zero (talk) 12:30, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

An award for you![edit]

Barncompass.png The Wikivoyage Barncompass
Thankless work needn't always go unthanked, and I believe the community is long overdue in recognising your dedication to improving all kinds of articles, all over Wikivoyage. Thank you for everything, Graham! ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:38, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Aw, that's nice, TT. But I'd never call the input thankless: there's lots of practical and educational reward from editing, both in preparation for and recollection of a trip. Some folk take selfies, some blog, to me it's more satisfying to overhaul WV content.

WP confirms my impression that the "barnstar" is more correctly an anchor plate, used to pin the walls of a rickety old building. (In UK they're usually in an X-shape.) So another analogy for contributions is that they . . . maybe I'll just leave off with this metaphor. Regards Grahamsands (talk) 13:19, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Your user page[edit]

Hi Graham. You are welcome to recreate your userpage whenever you like. I am also happy to protect or semiprotect your userspace, if you request it. Best wishes, James ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:07, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Horse Racing...[edit]

A more limited topic than 'ships' but another one I did not know much on..

Any thoughts? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:29, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

My instinct is always to start from the base destination, so it's immediately useful to the traveller, and you don't wait aeons while some ponderous project gathers steam then fizzles out. For horse racing, I noticed there was a concentration in Yorkshire, so I ensured every "city" with a race track had a two-liner about it: where's the course, flat or jumps, famous fixtures. It would be two rainy afternoons' work to cover the whole UK & Irish racing scene in this way, just pick up the racing section of a Tabloid and check WV for every track they mention - then again six months later to catch the alternate season. Extend to other countries as time allows. If later you saw value in a dedicated page, it would write itself as search would immediately pull the examples; trying to do it top-down would be a frustrating business. Regards GS 3/1/19

When did the Aviemore resort go "bust"?[edit]

https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Aviemore&oldid=3687167

Not seeing anything recent about the resort having gone bust... but the funicular is still being reported as out of action.

Can you confirm they went bust? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:34, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Telegraph of 25 Nov 2018: "CairnGorm Mountain placed in administration", so not bankrupt or liquidated, but financially unable to carry out essential repairs. Their woes can only deepen with loss of revenue at this time of year, and later reports mentioned 50 staff laid off; no sign of a rescue package. I thought "bust" summed the situation up. Grahamsands (talk) 13:30, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Horses ..[edit]

Thank you updating all those articles. It was unexpected, (given your suggestion in a past e-mail, I was sort of expecting to have to add/update some of them myself. :) ) I've now looked and updated where needed the 3 Welsh venues noted on Wikipedia.

Will be looking into the Scottish ones shortly... Also found this - http://www.goracing.ie/racecourses-and-events/racecourses/ which seems to be a list kept by the 'official' sports regulator for horse racing in Ireland, will be looking it further in the next few days, if you don't want to plunge forward yourself :) .

I may well consider requesting a stub for Horse racing or Equestrian sports once I've had chance to see if there are any museums associated with specific courses, I found https://www.palacehousenewmarket.co.uk/ Palace House Musuem, and http://www.horsemuseum.co.uk and The Museum Of The Horse at The Newcastle Arms, Tuxford

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:58, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Good good. The Irish tracks meeting this weekend appear to be Navan, Leopardstown, Naas, Thurles, Gowran Park Kilkenny, Tramore, Punchestown, Limerick, Clonmel and Dundalk. For style, I used the term "jumps races" because I didn't think "National Hunt" would be understood by US / Anzac readers. Actually some of those NH winter meets are "chases" not hurdles, but let that be. I led in with "Go to the races at . . . " (and similar with other sports, eg "Watch Quidditch at . . . ") as it felt like that's what you primarily do, not "Visit xxx Stadium". Grahamsands (talk) 19:19, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

A recent edit...[edit]

https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Dalkeith&curid=119289&diff=3710871&oldid=3622814

There's a whole travel topic on Mining tourism and Underground works that could be considered as well.

Maybe the Edinburgh basements would count as an 'underground' attraction in that destination as well? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:10, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! I wasn't aware of those pages, there's a lot of UK entries merit linking. However Edinburgh old town buildings go up a long way but don't penetrate much underground, the bedrock's too hard, it just looks like they do because the ground falls away steeply. Lots of better examples in places with underlying soft rock, eg Budapest. Grahamsands (talk) 23:22, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Aviation[edit]

Thanks for : - https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Haddington&oldid=3712121

There is also a topic Aviation history which probably needs splitting, given it's length. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:22, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Oban[edit]

Thanks for your recent hard work on Oban. I am a little surprised that you removed so many markers. It certainly makes sense to not have two markers for the same building, and maybe not for two buildings that are next door, but I think that otherwise everywhere should have a marker. When I am wandering about a strange town, I sometimes get out the map to look for nearby markers - doing that in Oban I would miss the cathedrals, distillery and museum. AlasdairW (talk) 22:26, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Okay, I've overdone it, so I reverted those. Grahamsands (talk) 22:32, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
Thank you. That's good. AlasdairW (talk) 22:49, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Lighthouses[edit]

Thanks for https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Thurso_(Scotland)&oldid=3712587

Lighthouses was an article I started and others added to. Probably some more Historical sites in the UK. And Flannan Isle has some folklore attached to it obviously. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 00:25, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Good stuff. I suggest a bit more intro to say i) scope of page is specifically lighthouses that you can visit, there are squillions more that you just see from a distance, which is what they're for; ii) page doesn't include Daymarks, sometimes confused with lighthouses; iii) brief mention of Pharos, the island that gave its name to the world's first, now joined by infill to Alexandria Egypt. Grahamsands (talk) 09:46, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Plunge forward. What are daymarks? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:48, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Okay, later today. A daymark is what it says, a big prominent tower that you can see by day to steer by, but there's no light so it doesn't help in poor viz or at night. Pharos started out as a simple daymark then became a lighthouse. Grahamsands (talk) 09:57, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Done. Check whether the new intro properly describes the intent of this page. Grahamsands (talk) 20:53, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
It does. Thank you :).. Lighthouses also have some folklore, Flannan Isle for example has a poem, but the actual light is fairly remote IIRC. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 00:01, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Catering on trains...[edit]

In respect of Cuisine of Britain and Ireland, and the United Kingdom article, what's the current situation? It's been a while since I made a long distance train journey, and my recollection back in 2005 was that proper dining cars were on the way out, or had gone.. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 00:35, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

None nowadays on UK trains as far as I know. In First Class and on Eurostar, there's an at-seat service, in Standard Class just elbow your way to the buffet. Probably similar even on Heritage railway excursions, just for the practicalities of getting everyone served to a schedule. Grahamsands (talk) 19:14, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Lighthouses....[edit]

https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Lighthouses&diff=prev&oldid=3715354

As with Wikipedia, note to self, ALWAYS fact check..

I'm dissapointed I failed to notice this for a l-o-n-g time. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:50, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

I'd say that's the sort of detail that can usefully go in the Plymouth listing. For the Lighthouses page which is just a round-up, it's enough just to explain that a former Eddystone lighthouse is now here on the mainland. Grahamsands (talk) 19:04, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Horse Racing (3rd furlong) ;)...[edit]

https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Drogheda&type=revision&diff=3715512&oldid=3691902 Concise but probably a little too short :(

I've been adding these to the appropriate town article, or if needed the county level article. If you want to expand, or move things around plunge forward.

I think a summary overview as Horse racing in Britain and Ireland is desirable given that most of the UK courses are now in destination articles, and I will be slowly adding some more of the Irish courses over the next few weeks. A summary overview would also be the place to explain the various types of races (such as flats , hurdles, steeplechase, etc. which may differ from terms used elsewhere). Also given that gambling (on track or off) forms an essential part of Going to the races for a considerable number of people, a concise explanation of this aspect would also be something to include.

I do not know that much about Horse racing, even with the UK though, so I'll also post a note in the pub similar to this one, asking if anyone else is able to write such an article. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 00:13, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

A Blackpool legend...[edit]

Funny Girls, has a website - http://funnygirlsonline.co.uk/ which suggest booking is needed for seating. Arguably it's more a 'drag' cabaret venue than what the current description, has for it. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:15, 4 March 2019 (UTC) - Agree, so it's moved from Drink to Do as a cabaret act. Grahamsands (talk) 22:00, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Scottish Caves[edit]

I noted you added some listings of Caves up in Scotland, so figured you might want to add or reviews some cross references here: https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Caves#United_Kingdom

Thanks in advance.

I'd also like someone to take a look at the outline of British coast - DONE, commented there GS 25/4

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 08:04, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Probably the only thing I'd add to the UK cave section (which mustn't degenerate into a list) is a throwaway mention of the other cave types mentioned in the intro, ie sea caves, abandoned mine workings, other industrial tunnels, and catacombs. Grahamsands (talk) 10:13, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Cave diving[edit]

Per comments elsewhere I removed it from the Caves article - https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Caves&oldid=3769872, as I felt it was a technical specialism, and that those interested would be reading seeking specific technical advice thorough appropriate organisations. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:30, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Soccer in the United Kingdom?[edit]

Association Football in Europe has a section, but if you wanted to pull together something from entries in the respective Premier teams home cites and towns.

Perhaps I should go check myself which Premier teams stadia have entries on Wikioyage? :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:47, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

ShakespeareFan00, feel free to check, but I believe all Premier League & Championship sides are listed, along with all Scottish ditto, and most League One, League Two & Scottish pro sides. For lower leagues I reckoned that they don't all merit listing, but if they are, it should be up to date for 19 / 20. For Europe there are listings for all the top tier D F ES P I sides, plus for all other European leagues the top 4 or 5 that boss their domestic league and regularly compete in Euro tournaments, and that are unlikely to suffer relegation. Grahamsands (talk) 19:06, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for updating ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:13, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
Did you get confused here - https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=London/South&diff=prev&oldid=3786177 ? Palace are in the Premier in the 2019-2020 season according to Wikipedia. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:17, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
Regrettably yes I did. Sorted, thanks. Grahamsands (talk) 19:33, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Articles for improvement?[edit]

Given your skill, in expanding articles, I was wondering if you kept a list of articles to be improved?

Labyrinths being one, and Miniatures,_dioramas_and_scale_models being another. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 07:18, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

For labyrinths I added Knossos and Julian's Bower. Not sure where the miniatures piece is going, but a couple of examples are Tamen Mini Indonesia in Jakarta, and Mini Israel at Latrun. My short-list of articles to work on as & when today numbers 56, mostly city-destinations as you need this foundation for everything else. Many will expand on opening, eg looking at County Dublin straightaway becomes a dozen townships surrounding the city. You probably noticed the general call for contributions from (or alternatively about) Ireland so do what you can there - horse-racing was a good start, thanks. Grahamsands (talk) 21:46, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
In respect of Ireland articles, I will note the following attractions here as the towns don't have an article yet:

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:50, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Patroller?[edit]

Would you like to have the status of patroller? You would be able to patrol edits without the responsibilities an administrator needs to have. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:52, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Hmm. I think I add more value to WV by building undeveloped destinations, that have sparse, obsolete content and few contributions. It's uncommon for me to edit in response to other users' recent input, and on those occasions I can do so without additional status. Feels like I should stick to this and it would be a distraction to be driven by what others are writing. So thanks Selfie City but no thanks. Grahamsands (talk) 10:15, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
Sure, that's absolutely fine. Just wondering if you wanted it. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 11:40, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Halloween[edit]

As you have a knack for digging up both obscure and practical information, I was wondering if you could give this a look over in the next few weeksShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:39, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

I've rolled over a few of the dates, and genericised some others.

Currently, it may be a bit US centric, but as modern day Halloween is a US holiday, that's probably inevitable. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:39, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Remote Railways..[edit]

https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Alderney&oldid=3843218

I seem to recall a discussion a few years ago that mentioned some "breakwater" lines even further North than the Hebrides and Western Isles.

Wikipedia has w:Hagdale_Chromate_Railway in the Shetlands.

And if we include industrial railways in even more remote outposts of Britan - http://railwaysofthefarsouth.co.uk/11acamberrailway.html (Falklands) and http://railwaysofthefarsouth.co.uk/11dsthelena.html (St Helena and Acension).

Not necessarily material for a (general) travel guide, but maybe of interest to really dedicate railway enthusiasts and industrial historians. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 08:23, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Add them to the relevant city page if there are remains worth seeing, a trail you can walk along the old track bed, an old coach that's now a cafe, that sort of thing. Collating them as a theme page feels like a wearisome task with a scrappy outcome, since it would have to be called "Railways so obscure that they're not even mentioned here." Grahamsands (talk) 12:49, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Community Insights Survey[edit]

RMaung (WMF) 14:34, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

(They also sent a REMINDER at 19:13 on 20 September 2019 UTC, but I'd already responded - GCS)

Reminder: Community Insights Survey[edit]

RMaung (WMF) 17:04, 4 October 2019 (UTC)