User talk:Grahamsands

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Hello, Grahamsands! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. If you are familiar with Wikipedia, take a look over some of the differences here.

Thanks for all your edits so far!

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:18, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Ticket sales on trains in Finland[edit]

Hi and thanks for your edits. You've added to a couple of Finnish articles the fact that tickets are not sold onboard trains any longer. Ticket sales on the local trains in the Helsinki region (operated by HSL rather than the national rail company VR) were indeed terminated in June, but as far as I know (I very rarely travel by train) you can still buy tickets onboard all other trains. ϒpsilon (talk) 06:50, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

REPLY: Hi, from recent travel to Vaasa I had understood this rule also applied to VR mainline trains, but that may be my mistake. VR website doesn’t say anything about it, and they surely would publicise if there was a recent change of policy. In UK the rule is, you must buy a ticket in advance wherever it’s possible to do so; but some little stations have no facilities so it’s okay to hop on and pay the conductor. It’d be good to clarify this, as travellers arriving in Finland late at night may not be able to commit in advance to a particular train, and might not find open kiosks or functioning machines. Regards gs

FURTHER: email from VR confirms that you can still buy ticket aboard long distance trains. But not commuter trains - and some routes eg Helsinki-Tampere have both types of train. Grahamsands (talk) 09:46, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

"Get in" section renaming[edit]

Hi there, is there a specific reason why you renamed the "get in" section to "get around" on some of the Edinburgh district pages (here or here)? District articles normally have a "get in" section, but not a "get around" section: Wikivoyage:District_article_template.Xsobev (talk) 22:58, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Apols, I’ve reverted that. Obviously the distinction I was making was between reaching the city, which should be on the main page, and navigating a district. Some of the content seemed to me to be blurring the two. But it’s less obvious for the outer districts, which as minor transport hubs may have their own portals, so I left them be.
It’s the same argument in reverse for “Go next” – these should be on the main city page, and Edinburgh is especially well-connected. I couldn’t see the point of listing all the other city districts there, as these are more informatively set out just by clicking up the root to the city page. Grahamsands (talk) 11:58, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
If you are not familiar with the city, it may not be obvious that say Edinburgh/Stockbridge and Canonmills is immediately to the north of Edinburgh/New Town. I added the map and links in Go next to help readers navigate around (rather than two clicks to go via Edinburgh). An alternative would be a paragraph in Understand describing the boundaries of each district. See Talk:Edinburgh/New Town#Upgrade to "guide" status for an earlier discussion of this. AlasdairW (talk) 20:47, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for reverting to match the typical layout. I like the idea of describing which other districts are bordering the current one in a short paragraph either in the introduction text, the "understand" section, or maybe even better as intro text in the "get in" section (since not all district articles have an "understand" section). Xsobev (talk) 11:20, 29 September 2017 (UTC) P.S. @Grahamsands, what's your motivation to change the section headlines in the district "get in" sections from ===By bus=== to '''By bus:'''? I think the first way is more consistent with general use on Wikivoyage, and more clearly separates the information (for example, as traveler I might not be interested in taking buses, because I want to walk -- when having sections, I can easily ignore them, thus not wasting time when reading. Also having sections creates a menu item in the top bar (and in offline Wikivoyage smartphone apps) which makes navigation easier.)
Also, thanks very much in general for all your contributions to the Edinburgh page :)
The present district arrangement looks well, with the map and a short orientation near the top.
I have a preference, but wouldn't make a thing of it, of down-staging some sub-headers where there's barely a couple of lines of text, as they're disproportionate on the page. I was hoping this helps rather than hinders navigability, as the traveller is first searching for transport options rather than a specific modality, and lands on a more compact page view. Grahamsands (talk) 11:30, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Removal of listing templates[edit]

Please explain this edit, because I'm confused by it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:36, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

So, I've read the de-WV entries for "Events", fact-checked against other sources, and written into en-WV accordingly. It seemed simpler to do so in plain text in the first instance. They can convert into listings if that will be clearer, but it wasn't obvious to me that they would. Eg we don't have map refs. Grahamsands (talk) 22:46, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

The current absence of information is not IMO a good reason not to use a template that makes it simple for whoever has the info to add it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:03, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Hokay, I'll listify them in the next day or two. Grahamsands (talk) 23:22, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:55, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Time formatting[edit]

Thanks, as always, for your very useful updates on articles. It is easiest for readers if we use one time format per article, rather than changing from one format to another to another through an article. There are two used in Wikivoyage -- a 12-hour format (e.g. 9AM-noon, 2PM-6PM), and a 24-hour format (e.g. 09:00-13:00 and 14:00-18:00), and we try to use the format that is used in the country the article is about. This is set out in our style guide, WV:tdf. I hope that helps. Keep up the great work. Ground Zero (talk) 22:24, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Tell me about it! If I ever find an article with a consistent style I'll gladly hew to it . . . Grahamsands (talk) 08:53, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
Well, Alcalá de Henares had a consistent style before your edits. Appreciate the updates, though. Ground Zero (talk) 21:06, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
Hola GZ! The Alcalá entry, if I rightly recall, was previously consistent via the cunning ruse of showing very few opening hours at all.
Sometimes when editing I’m aware of a bot dogging my heels: is there not one that finds & tidies tdf infelicities? (Don Quixote routinely, and Sancho Panza often, and even sometimes their steeds, were repeatedly beaten up over similar infractions.) I’d be sad if anyone was painstakingly correcting my Sat-Sun to Sa Su, when they could be out travelling, or making the substantive edits that so many WV pages urgently need. Grahamsands (talk) 21:45, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
I'm sure you've heard that sarcasm is is the lowest form of wit. I've contributed more than enough content and created more than enough new articles here that it would be ludicrous for anyone to try to lecture me on how to contribute. Fortunately, I have the time and inclination also to improve the project by make it easier to read and easier for travellers to find information. When you said above that you would gladly hew to the style of an article where it was consistent, I took you at your word that you were not intentionally making articles more difficult for readers. More the fool me. Your considerable contributions to Wikivoyage make the guide better. With negligible effort, you could also make it easier to read and find information. Ground Zero (talk) 16:01, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Hey, please, it's not sarcasm. I genuinely don't want to create unnecessary work for other contributors, who I assume to be busy, experienced editors and travellers with lots else they need to be doing. Still less do I want anyone to feel jibed at, and I'm real sorry if I read that way. The WV formats are helpful and sensible, and I try to follow them. I don't altogether succeed but I notice various auto-format routines kicking in behind me and naturally wondered whether these included tdf. If they don't, I need to be more diligent there.

What I come back to is utility to the reader / traveller. How much grief does it cause the reader to find Mon-Fri instead of M-F, compared to finding no hours at all, incorrect hours, place closed down, content just a publicity blurb, or umpteen other glitches? I've seen several conversations on WV where format is championed with passion. Yet the collaboration can only have got this far thru equal passion to improve substantive content. Grahamsands (talk) 17:31, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

My apologies. There is no tdf bot. I thought that was a jibe, and accept that it wasn't. There is no question that content is more important than format. I'll gladly clean up the formatting of a newbie user and be happy that content was added. It's just that when regular contributors continually add incorrect formatting or change the formats I hope to cajole them into using the standard formats. Its also about improving the look of Wikivoyage to give it more credibility in the eyes of readers, and thereby draw more readers. But I have to work on finding more gentle ways of cajoling. The last thing I would want to do is discourage someone from adding content because of fussing over format. Best regards, Ground Zero (talk) 12:30, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

An award for you![edit]

Barncompass.png The Wikivoyage Barncompass
Thankless work needn't always go unthanked, and I believe the community is long overdue in recognising your dedication to improving all kinds of articles, all over Wikivoyage. Thank you for everything, Graham! ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:38, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Aw, that's nice, TT. But I'd never call the input thankless: there's lots of practical and educational reward from editing, both in preparation for and recollection of a trip. Some folk take selfies, some blog, to me it's more satisfying to overhaul WV content.

WP confirms my impression that the "barnstar" is more correctly an anchor plate, used to pin the walls of a rickety old building. (In UK they're usually in an X-shape.) So another analogy for contributions is that they . . . maybe I'll just leave off with this metaphor. Regards Grahamsands (talk) 13:19, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Your user page[edit]

Hi Graham. You are welcome to recreate your userpage whenever you like. I am also happy to protect or semiprotect your userspace, if you request it. Best wishes, James ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:07, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Horse Racing...[edit]

A more limited topic than 'ships' but another one I did not know much on..

Any thoughts? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:29, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

My instinct is always to start from the base destination, so it's immediately useful to the traveller, and you don't wait aeons while some ponderous project gathers steam then fizzles out. For horse racing, I noticed there was a concentration in Yorkshire, so I ensured every "city" with a race track had a two-liner about it: where's the course, flat or jumps, famous fixtures. It would be two rainy afternoons' work to cover the whole UK & Irish racing scene in this way, just pick up the racing section of a Tabloid and check WV for every track they mention - then again six months later to catch the alternate season. Extend to other countries as time allows. If later you saw value in a dedicated page, it would write itself as search would immediately pull the examples; trying to do it top-down would be a frustrating business. Regards GS 3/1/19

When did the Aviemore resort go "bust"?[edit]

Not seeing anything recent about the resort having gone bust... but the funicular is still being reported as out of action.

Can you confirm they went bust? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:34, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Telegraph of 25 Nov 2018: "CairnGorm Mountain placed in administration", so not bankrupt or liquidated, but financially unable to carry out essential repairs. Their woes can only deepen with loss of revenue at this time of year, and later reports mentioned 50 staff laid off; no sign of a rescue package. I thought "bust" summed the situation up. Grahamsands (talk) 13:30, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Horses ..[edit]

Thank you updating all those articles. It was unexpected, (given your suggestion in a past e-mail, I was sort of expecting to have to add/update some of them myself. :) ) I've now looked and updated where needed the 3 Welsh venues noted on Wikipedia.

Will be looking into the Scottish ones shortly... Also found this - which seems to be a list kept by the 'official' sports regulator for horse racing in Ireland, will be looking it further in the next few days, if you don't want to plunge forward yourself :) .

I may well consider requesting a stub for Horse racing or Equestrian sports once I've had chance to see if there are any museums associated with specific courses, I found Palace House Musuem, and and The Museum Of The Horse at The Newcastle Arms, Tuxford

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:58, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Good good. The Irish tracks meeting this weekend appear to be Navan, Leopardstown, Naas, Thurles, Gowran Park Kilkenny, Tramore, Punchestown, Limerick, Clonmel and Dundalk. For style, I used the term "jumps races" because I didn't think "National Hunt" would be understood by US / Anzac readers. Actually some of those NH winter meets are "chases" not hurdles, but let that be. I led in with "Go to the races at . . . " (and similar with other sports, eg "Watch Quidditch at . . . ") as it felt like that's what you primarily do, not "Visit xxx Stadium". Grahamsands (talk) 19:19, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

A recent edit...[edit]

There's a whole travel topic on Mining tourism and Underground works that could be considered as well.

Maybe the Edinburgh basements would count as an 'underground' attraction in that destination as well? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:10, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! I wasn't aware of those pages, there's a lot of UK entries merit linking. However Edinburgh old town buildings go up a long way but don't penetrate much underground, the bedrock's too hard, it just looks like they do because the ground falls away steeply. Lots of better examples in places with underlying soft rock, eg Budapest. Grahamsands (talk) 23:22, 20 January 2019 (UTC)


Thanks for : -

There is also a topic Aviation history which probably needs splitting, given it's length. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:22, 22 January 2019 (UTC)


Thanks for your recent hard work on Oban. I am a little surprised that you removed so many markers. It certainly makes sense to not have two markers for the same building, and maybe not for two buildings that are next door, but I think that otherwise everywhere should have a marker. When I am wandering about a strange town, I sometimes get out the map to look for nearby markers - doing that in Oban I would miss the cathedrals, distillery and museum. AlasdairW (talk) 22:26, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Okay, I've overdone it, so I reverted those. Grahamsands (talk) 22:32, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
Thank you. That's good. AlasdairW (talk) 22:49, 22 January 2019 (UTC)