User talk:Ibaman

From Wikivoyage
Jump to: navigation, search

Hello, Ibaman! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. If you are familiar with Wikipedia, take a look over some of the differences here. Curtaintoad (user · talk · contribs) 13:39, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


Hi, I have reverted a comment made by another user which seemed purely abusive and nonconstructive. If you would like to restore it, by all means feel free. Your contributions are valued here. I recommend ignoring this particular user, as others will deal with him. --Peter Talk 19:17, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Dynamic maps, FYI[edit]


I noticed you've added dynamic maps to Moscow and St.Petersburg per our recent discussion. In the case you worry about the error showing up instead of the map it's not because you've set some parameters wrong (they're correct). :) It's just a server that likes giving our technical colleagues a headache once a week. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:34, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

  • Thanks my friend! I was starting to worry. Good to know about that. :) Ibaman (talk) 18:47, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Leaving St. Pete[edit]

Previous on Talk:Saint_Petersburg/Center

About 'leaving Center St Pete': I had a discuss about 'Center St Pete' future (how splitting and so)... and its ended with ...stop it.... I did it. I stopped.

Anyway. Same happened in Central Moscow (resulted a torso).

And about South Pete: Planned to come back! My problem is the Russian vers. so short... maybe first that need to expanding Globetrotter19 (talk) 14:12, 12 August 2014 (UTC)


Ibaman, I don't remember if I ever brought up before the idea that you might want to become an admin. You do a lot of valuable work across the site, and since some of it involves reversion, you might enjoy having tools like a 1-click rollback of a string of edits and the ability to block spammers and persistent vandals. If you have any interest in having a few more tools at your disposal, just say the word and I'll nominate you.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:02, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

  • "The Word"! When do I start??  :D Ibaman (talk) 12:39, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Not so fast. :-) You have to be nominated, and there's no guarantee you'd be confirmed. One quick question: What IP(s) have you been using? You should be credited in the nomination with your IP contributions as well as your Ibaman contributions. Also, I remember that when I was nominated, it was suggested that I write something on my user page, so you might want to do that, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:38, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
All right, I'll work on my user page. I have seldom used IPs other than and the amount of work I made under other IPs is negligible. This will simplify things. Ibaman (talk) 12:29, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
What's the whole IP address? I have a very long day ahead of me, after a sleepless night, so it may be a while before I type up the nomination. Enjoy your day!
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:53, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
  • This will be Enjoy you day too! Geetings from sunny and cozy Brasília at 10am. Ibaman (talk) 13:33, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Oh, for some reason, not the entire IP was showing up for me this morning. Here's the thread nominating you. Be prepared to address questions others may have.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:46, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Administrator nomination[edit]

Per Wikivoyage:Administrator nominations/Archives#User:Ibaman I've flipped the bits and you should see several new buttons when you next login. See Wikivoyage:Administrators' handbook for guidance on using the new functionality. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:19, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

User:Ikan Kekek[edit]

Before you left that shouting comment on my talk page, I had no idea that Ikan was an administrator for Wikivoyage. Had I known that, I would've taken his criticism lightly. Not to be pushy, but I'm still kind of new here, and have a lot to learn. Can you ease up on me just a tad please? Donny (talk) 12:41, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Segway rental in Prague[edit]

Hi, Ibaman. I'm not sure what was wrong with this edit. It doesn't seem promotional, on the face of it. Is it that a Segway rental doesn't seem important enough to mention? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:41, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

  • I'm under the impression that this Segway tour's case falls under Tour, as do most walking tours that are added in bigger cities... if you say it's OK to leave it in, let's leave it in then. Ibaman (talk) 11:37, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
It's described as a Segway rental, not a Segway tour, it lacks a link, and actually, Segway tours turn out to count as "value added" like bike tours (I learned this in a discussion some time ago). Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:11, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Votes for deletion[edit]

Hello Ibaman. I saw you simply deleted Taipan, despite the discussion on Wikivoyage:Votes_for_deletion. That's not in line with our deletion procedure, so I restored it. When a vfd-template is added to a page, please follow the procedure as explained on that discussion page. Before deleting other pages, please read the deletion policy and note the difference between a vote for deletion nomination and a speedy deletion rationale. Particularly, keep in mind that we don't delete real places; we redirect them. If you merge information, it's best to link the original article in the edit summary and not to delete the article but create a redirect. This saves the history and thus covers any attribution issues. If you have any questions, just ask. Thanks, JuliasTravels (talk) 09:42, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

  • sorry for the blunder. I will pay attention to the procedures. Ibaman (talk) 12:23, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
No worries, and thanks! JuliasTravels (talk) 19:48, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

disambiguation needed[edit]

Shahbazpur disambiguation needed, and this is a habitation than Shahbazpur in India, Pakistan. thanks! (talk) 13:48, 05 Oct 2015 (UTC)


Hi ! Have you ever been to Myanmar?YLNSMN (talk) 17:28, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
  • No, never; but I've been on Wikivoyage for quite a while. :) Ibaman (talk) 17:42, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Hello, Ibaman ;How should I do to nominate the Yangon for in becoming a star? Help? Yanlinnnaung (talk) 16:23, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
Please read Wikivoyage:Article status, Wikivoyage:Consensus, and last but not least, Wikivoyage:Manual_of_style; You might have already read that your user page is very out of line according to Tone and Don't tout. Please consider removing references to your own work as tourist guide. Best wishes Ibaman (talk) 16:34, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Thanks so much for your suggestion! Yanlinnnaung (talk) 17:42, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


Trophy.png enquiry
hello ibaman, please let me know why the edit uder "do" category on the wikivoyage page of puri was reverted. i have visited that place and whatever i edit was informative. please share where i lacked explaining it. Abhewday (talk) 08:35, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
  • About the additions in the Do section, they are not in accordance to our policy of avoiding " vague, flowery, and effusive language". As for the Sleep additions, the only contact provided was the email address "" for both of them. This characterizes toutism, and is stongly discouraged in Wikivoyage. In short, these are the reasonsfor the revert. Ibaman (talk) 12:01, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Length of block[edit]

Hello, my friend. Do I understand correctly that User:Turbo8000's first block is 1 week long? Isn't the first block supposed to be no longer than 3 days and agreed upon or at least explained at Wikivoyage:User ban nominations? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:29, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

  • Sorry for overlooking that. I haven't reread the policy pages as often as I should. The block has been reset for 3 days. Ibaman (talk) 17:42, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
No problem. Please also post to Wikivoyage:User ban nominations, explaining the reasons for the block to whomever hasn't been following Talk:Peru and other places where problems have cropped up. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:58, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Metro Atlanta reversion[edit]

Ibaman, I really don't understand this edit. It is very unusual to revert contributions to talk pages. And in this instance, a quick search of the article under "Athens" would have turned up a result. The rest of us are here to offer advice before you take action on stuff like this, if you ask for advice.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:39, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

  • Thanks for the support. I will ask for advice next time I feel the need. I honestly thought it was a silly joke. Only after rereading the article three times I saw the mention of Athens. I promise to become more attentive to this kind of detail. Ibaman (talk) 19:43, 20 January 2016 (UTC)


You blocked Ianman007 for one week as a spambot, but that account is most definitely not a spambot. Also, the user was given no talk page warning, and blocks of longer than 3 days without a ban nomination are considered abuse of the block button. I've removed the block pending clarification. -- Ryan • (talk) • 12:47, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

  • Well, the user in question posted this:

Expatriates in Berlin[edit]

Berlin has reinvented itself as an exciting, innovative, modern capital and is an appealing destination for students, businessmen, entrepreneurs and expats from around the world. From old-world town houses on quiet streets, Soviet-era apartment blocks and modern skyscrapers to artsy industrial neighbourhoods - Berlin has it all. Especially young people are drawn to Berlin thanks to its multicultural artsy atmosphere.

Expatriates in Berlin - Finding an apartment[edit]

When moving to Berlin, it is important to choose the right location. Rental prices in Berlin are set according to so called Bezirke (boroughs). Which means that sometimes all you need to do is cross the bridge or turn around the corner and prices drop considerably for just about the same apartments. Berliners do not put signs “for rent” into their windows, so looking for a flat to rent by walking the streets and looking for signs isn't really an option. You need to seach online. Fortunately there is a great number of websites for this purpose:

  • Immobilienscout24 – probably the biggest German rental portal with the largest selection of flats for rent.
  • FARAWAYHOME - offers only verified furnished Apartments in Berlin, which you can rent for longterm housing (starting from 1 Month)
  • White Apartments - specialises in furnished apartments in Berlin. It is the right place to look for nicely decorated furnished apartments for long term rent.
  • Wg-gesucht - offers flats for rent as well as flatshares. Advertisements are being posted both by the agents and flat owners.

Additionally you can find a comparison and rating of the most widely used websites on

  • (end of said posting)
These links are totally unacceptable per policy. I reverted the edit per External links and Goals and non-goals, as I usually do. The user instantly reverted my edit (=edit war=doubly unacceptable) and I blocked. I stand corrected; I should hit the 3 days option instead of 1 week; I should have posted a standard wbo warning, which I would have done if these links were minimally acceptable per policy. What should the standard procedure be in such cases? Ibaman (talk) 13:03, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
I don't find a block inappropriate, even if it possibly should be just three days. As a rule, spamming-only accounts are blocked right away, and even as the text above is more than just linkspam to apartment search sites, to me they look more like a decoration to the links rather than anything else.
Per Apt "in general real estate and rental agency listings are not allowed", unless they are approved for the individual article (ought to be discussed at the talk page) and then added to the Sleep section. Probably Ibaman should've added a warning/notification to the user's talk page, but given the edit warring, chances are that the user wouldn't give a damn about the warning anyway. ϒpsilon (talk) 15:03, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits#Last resorts has the relevant guidance for when and how to block users that aren't automated spambots or vandals, and it is important that anyone using the "block" button be very familiar with that guidance as unwarranted or excessive use of the block button can be considered abuse of admin privileges. I think all admins deserve some leeway, but this is the second time in ten days that concerns with blocks made by Ibaman have come up, and I don't want to see a precedent set where we start allowing admins to regularly violate site guidelines. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:35, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
At most, this would deserve a 1-day block. The opening paragraph is inappropriate, but the links to portals, though a violation of policy, are probably useful. I know that my girlfriend has used immobilienscout to very good effect in Germany. It's something like airbnb or homeaway, only probably better. As for 3-day bans, once again, unless they are obviously uncontroversial (such as in the case of inveterate spam/touters who have already been blocked for a day and when they return, continue to spam/edit war, not once but numerous times), inappropriate without prior agreement by consensus on Wikivoyage:User ban nominations, and since we just went through this quite recently, as Ryan alludes to, I don't understand why you thought it was OK to do this unilaterally. Can you please explain? As Ryan says, having access to blocking tools is a weighty responsibility which we have to avoid abusing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:14, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
At this point I feel that Ibaman's statement that he will re-read the policies on user blocks and use them more appropriately in the future is a sufficient resolution to this issue. My purpose in calling out this particular incident was not to chastise, but to correct what I perceived to be a worrisome pattern of user blocks. Ibaman has done excellent work in keeping an eye on edits and correcting touting, and I definitely don't want a single bad event to overshadow all of the good work he does. -- Ryan • (talk) • 23:05, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
I agree with you that Ibaman does excellent work: I was the one who nominated him for admin. But for the record, this is now arguably 2 bad events. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:06, 30 January 2016 (UTC)


I've reverted your block of User: This is clearly a real user, not an automated spambot, and no user talk page warning was given prior to the block. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:32, 2 February 2016 (UTC)


What is the reason that the contact info for a tour organiser is to be deleted, while contact info for accomodation/hotel/restaurant is fine? I think it is valuable info for someone who would like to visit a country like Iran independently. Moreover, after your edit, several references in other parts of the text are broken. Please repair it yourself, I dislike your style of editing other peoples' contributions.-- 11:41, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

  • If you have not read Don't tout and Welcome, business owners, please do so. You cannot advertise yourself as a tour organizer or guide in Wikivoyage, it's against policy. All the best, Ibaman (talk) 11:56, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
If I may interject:, Wikivoyage:Tour (scroll to where there is a "Tour listings" subheading if you end up somewhere else when you click that link) is more relevant here. We appreciate the information you've shared, but tours and tour providers can be listed only under restrictive circumstances on this site, such as when they are required by law or regulation or when it is extremely difficult for an independent traveler to accomplish the activity by themselves (such as in the case of river cruises, which require an independent traveler to have or acquire a boat if s/he would like to do one independently). Please have a look at those guidelines, and I regret that they have inconvenienced you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:08, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Dear Ibaman, first, I am not a business owner, and also not a tout. I am a traveller and experienced contributor to other wikimedia projects. I contribute anonymously to protect my privacy. Second, yes, I have read those pages. Wikovoyage policy clearly says Tours can be listed on Wikivoyage as long as they constitute a value-added activity. Clearly, independent tourists should not venture out into the salt desert by themselves, the risk of getting lost is considerable. And if I say in many places in the article "charter a car", then I should also say where/how/from whom to charter, otherwise it is a mockery of the reader. Maybe it is up to you to read before deleting.-- 12:27, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

You should state your case on Talk:Kashan, and the Wikivoyage community will express itself and decide about the matter. All the best, Ibaman (talk) 12:39, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
[Edit conflict] The don't tout guidelines are not just for business owners, nor just for people who are intentionally touting, but that said, I think that the tour policy is more relevant. I fully agree on desert tours, but most types of tours can't be listed. The issue is really with this paragraph:
It is possible to make a few day trips out of town. A group of tour guides around Hossein Moznabi ( has compiled a few tours you can simply sign up to. Prices depend on group size and whether you choose a Persian speaking driver or an English speaking guide. Inquire. You can also bargain with any taxi driver on the road.
Specifically, the problem is that an email address has been given, seemingly for a particular individual guide. The tours mentioned include a trip to sand dunes, which as you say, would reasonably constitute a "value-added" activity that a tour agency or individual guide could be listed as providing. However, a visit to a small town should be possible as an independent traveler.
As I said, I regret the inconvenience, but there is a delicate balance that a consensus on Wikivoyage has decided to maintain, so as to keep this site geared toward independent travelers and prevent it from becoming an advertising board and link farm for all the slews of travel agencies and tour guides who used to spam Wikitravel when it was much less restrictive toward tour listings.
Nothing personal, and thanks again for your helpful contributions.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:41, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
No thanks, I have come here with the intention of a good deed and sharing something useful with future visitors of Iran, where you won't do lots of things without local support, unless you bring tons lof time. I'm not up to lenghty discussions about policy. I find my time too precious. I'd rather throw my notes into the garbage bin, as I see, it saves me lots of frustration.-- 13:00, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
You needn't engage in lengthy policy discussions if you would choose to operate within the limits of policies set by consensus, just as the rest of us do, regardless of our feelings about each policy. But in the end, whether to contribute here under the site rules is totally up to each individual. Either way, I wish you the best. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:31, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

An award for you![edit]

Barncompass.png The Wikivoyage Barncompass
Surprising that you haven't received a proper barnstar yet. Your fighting vandalism and touting is very appreciated as is of course your other contributions too. Obrigado! :) ϒpsilon (talk) 09:28, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
  • WoW! This is surprising and much appreciated. Big Thank You! :D Ibaman (talk) 10:04, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Well-deserved indeed. Thanks for all your contributions, Ibaman. JuliasTravels (talk) 17:38, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

What's the difference?[edit]

What's the difference of this two sentences. Sue was walking the dog. Sue was walking with the dog.please reply me.Yanlinnnaung (talk) 11:18, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Your reversion(s)[edit]

Why did you make rollbacks like this one? Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:27, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

  • It was inertia actually, I went into "autopatroller mode" after I re-rolled this one, originally rolled by Ikan, which is really redundant and unnecessary. I was really pondering and considering undoing the one you just mentioned (and undid), which isn't redundant neither unnecessary. No big deal. Ibaman (talk) 18:10, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
Ah okay. No problem. (If I sound blunt, it might be a cultural thing- there's little small talk in Germany). Good that we cleared that up! Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:52, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Always the most important thing here is the creation and maintenance of great travel guide articles. For the record, last month I had a most delightful time in Berlin (Neukölln, to be more specific). I happen to like this "bluntness" and hope to be back there ASAP! Ibaman (talk) 19:16, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Riyadh edits[edit]

How's it going? I think that now that User:Bionkid explained his/her reasoning on Talk:Riyadh, it would be great if you would address some of his/her specifics, not just revert the edit again by saying that the "older text is better". Does that seem reasonable to you? Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:31, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

  • Totally. I'd like to keep the "older text" which is a very clever and well-written bit of prose in my opinion, but User:Bionkid has driven his point home. Having never been to Riyadh, I'd rather trust the writing of fellow Wikivoyagers who know the place. Ibaman (talk) 19:11, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
I feel that way, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:02, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Delisted and blacklisted BambooBar Sihanoukville Cambodia[edit]

>> Bamboo Bar was de-listed, with its URL blacklisted for repeated touting/edit warring and ignoring edit summaries and user talk messages. I don't think we should suddenly allow it to be listed without any statement by the staff, under whatever username

What can we do to become de-de-listed and de-blacklisted? And what you will do if someone of our guests, or someone from vegetarian subculture decide to add listing about our restauraunt to Wikivoyage/Sihanoukville.

Kolkata Article Reverts[edit]

Hi! I find that you have reverted all the contribs I made to Wikivoyage entry to "Kolkata, India" over the last weekend. Checking out the difference between the versions, I understand some of them might have been in conflict with external references and Link [you have also deleted all the links to Wikipedia as well] policies, but for many other I could not understand the reason at all. Can you just drop me a line regarding where is this coming in conflict with the policies and why was it necessary for you to delete all of them, including updates on bus fares etc? Thanks! greetjGreetj (talk) 06:22, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Daman and Diu[edit]

Sorry for those unexplained edits. I was in the process of turning it into an extraregion. I will be breadcrumbing Daman and Diu separately under Gujarat. Give me a couple of days — Ravikiran (talk) 07:26, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind my butting in to thank you for doing that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:38, 19 July 2016 (UTC)


Hi, Ibaman! Just a quick comment: India uses British spellings in English, so it's correct to use "kilometres" in articles about India.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:25, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Marking as patrolled[edit]

Hi Ibaman! I just wanted to ask if you could make use of the "mark patrolled"-option when doing recent changes patrol. It keeps other patrollers from spending time on edits you have already checked and often reverted of fixed. Did you enable the RTRC option in your preferences? It does make checking and marking a lot easier :) Thanks and keep up the good work! JuliasTravels (talk) 09:27, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

What is a 'guide' article?[edit]

Hi Ibaman, could you explain why you indicated the article Oldambt to be "not a guide yet", but instead "usable"? Reading the definition of guide, it states: "The article would be helpful for the average traveler, such as offering alternatives for where to stay and eat, what to see and do, how to get in and out, etc. and provide enough information for at least a few days there. But at least a few things are missing to make this a star article. It follows the manual of style in spirit if not in detail." I would say that it complies with that exactly. I don't really mind, but I am justwondering which criterion I have overlooked. Cheers. --ErwinFCG (talk) 14:48, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


Why have you removed parts of some addresses? In particular postcodes are very useful for people using SatNavs to travel with.



Just a little friendly reminder, per this: for usable status it's enough that a city article has one way of getting in, one thing to see, one place to eat and one place to sleep. It is guide status that requires more. ϒpsilon (talk) 20:11, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

  • oops... overzealousness feelings... my bad. Sorry. Will pay attention. Ibaman (talk) 20:15, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Block of Wpwatchdog[edit]

I've removed the one day block you placed on Wpwatchdog. The user's contributions weren't obvious vandalism, and since there wasn't an effort to discuss issues with the user in advance I don't think a block is justified. -- Ryan • (talk) • 17:50, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

My apologies to Ibaman. I kept getting error messages while editing and I assumed it was my often poor internet service. I did not see your reversions until after I was blocked. I have no problem with keeping the Whitefish Point Light section in the same section as the Great Lakes Shipwreck Museum in the Paradise, Michigan article. I noticed your edits did not retain the admission price to the museum. Is this something that can be included? Do you mind if I add any other information to that section? I am very new to Wikivoyage although I have been an editor on Wikipedia since 2008. I do not engage in edit wars. Thank you in advance for your patience.Wpwatchdog (talk) 20:50, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
  • First of all, to rejoice it was only a misunderstanding, for lack of communication. Let's think about this matter: we in WV would rather keep things simple and avoid long lists for the benefit of the traveler. I noticed the two attractions share the same location. Two separate listings will overlap each other in the dynamic map. In my view, that justifies the decision for a simple listing describing both attractions. Tell me about your view. And thanks for adding content (I very much want to see the biggest falls east of the Mississipi and west of Niagara), and sorry for my part on the miscommunications and consequent bad feelings. All the best, Ibaman (talk) 11:15, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Botanical tourism[edit]

I was wondering if you could add a Brazillian section to this. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:34, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

  • Sounds very interesting and feasible! Gonna refresh my sources and start writing soon. Ibaman (talk) 19:39, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
Would certainly be nice to have a few more real tropical gardens on the list, too (now only Singapore is there).
On a related note, to my understanding there are, like elsewhere in the tropics, quite a lot of dangerous snakes and spiders (particularly those palm/hand/even bigger sized hairy things that, if not poisonous, would give travelers from temperate countries instant Travellers' diarrhea by just showing up within a meter) in the Amazon jungle and perhaps elsewhere in the country too. Poisonous South American critters don't seem to be mentioned in those travel topics, nor in the Brazil article or elsewhere, so perhaps you would like to give some input on them too at some point. ϒpsilon (talk) 20:22, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

IP blocks[edit]

IP addresses should never be indefinitely blocked. See Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits#Escalating user blocks. -- Ryan • (talk) • 20:11, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Your Iriomote edit[edit]


for what reason did you delete the link to the bike rental place on the entry for Iriomote?

This is very useful information for any traveller. There are virtually no signs and even if, they are in Japanese only. So any person not in good command of Japanese (probably a lot of the travellers going to the English page of Wikivoyage) will profit hugely from this information.

If it is just the format I'll happily take the hint and redo that paragraph.

Thanks! User4353 (talk) 15:50, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Hello. The issue with your edit was, such links to Google Maps don't comply with our External links policy. If you can provide a physical address, phone number, primary website, or proper (decimal) geocoordinates, we can list this business properly. Best wishes, Ibaman (talk) 17:46, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
OK, I see. I will add the geocoordinates then. Thanks! User4353 (talk) 18:03, 4 November 2016 (UTC)


Could you please be a little more creative with your contributions? --Vadim Shlyakhov (talk) 19:24, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Hello @Ibaman:, the way you were adding mapframes recently to a few pages, in Sicily in particular (Special:Diff/3151032) simply damages their layout. These mapframes bump into another section, "See" in in this case, so if there are any photos in this section they are get pushed into irrelevant location causing also a "domino effect". So you're essentially damaging the work done by other people. That's why I was asking you to be more creative.

Please consider: mapframes are optional. It makes sense to have one at a page if it adds a value and improves readability of a page, not the opposite. So if you're adding one to an article please format and place it accordingly.

BTW If you read more carefully the page you posted a link to at your comment to Special:Diff/3151032 then you'll learn that "Static or dynamic maps are usually displayed in this (Understand) section, if present" Wikivoyage:Where_you_can_stick_it#Understand. Also note that this passage does not use a verb must. So again this is a reference to your creativity.

Hope this makes sense. --Vadim Shlyakhov (talk) 13:21, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Do not vandalise! --Vadim Shlyakhov (talk) 09:20, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
  • This is not vandalism, it's closer to "standard Wiki collaborative effort" and "compliance to Wiki policy", you know. You don't "own" these articles and ought not to feel protective or jealous about them. Ibaman (talk) 12:33, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Please check Wikivoyage:Travellers'_pub#.7B.7BMapframe.7D.7D_vandalism --Vadim Shlyakhov (talk) 13:24, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Roger. By this moment you should be realizing that this is not a "personal" problem, and I'm not the only one concerned with the situation. I hope you can understand and comply. Happy editings. Ibaman (talk) 15:10, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Again; marking as patrolled[edit]

Hi Ibaman, I'm not sure if you ever saw my earlier comment here (since you never replied). It's great that you do a lot of recent changes patrol and correct or undo unwanted changes. However, you never mark them as patrolled. Therefore, they continue to show up as unpatrolled (with the red exclamation marks) in the recent changes list, making other administrators and patrollers go through them again. In the end, that means that others are constantly checking your changes as an administrator and marking as patrolled for you - which really is double work and thus a waste of effort. Could you please just click "mark as patrolled" when you check a change? Thanks a lot! JuliasTravels (talk) 22:09, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

  • I have not really paid attention to this. I'll be more careful from now on. Thanks for the tip. Ibaman (talk) 10:54, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Great, thanks! There's one more thing. When you block new, registered accounts for obvious spamming or vandalism, you can and probably should do so "indefinitely". You've been blocking the recent file upload spammers for only 1 day. It doesn't only mean that they can just come back to that account, but also that account creation from that IP is only blocked for 1 day. For IP vandals we use short (and increasing) blocks, but for clearly malicious registered editors, especially during a wave of vandalism from one source, Wikivoyage:How_to_handle_unwanted_edits#User_ban offers more firm solutions. JuliasTravels (talk) 12:10, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

How long to block spammers[edit]

Re: this block and some others: Please, when you see a spambot, block indefinitely, or if they're an IP, for at least 1 month. Blocking for a day just means they'll come back and spam more, and someone else will have to block them indefinitely. Thanks a lot.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:02, 15 March 2017 (UTC)


Please refrain from editing an article if someone else is editing it at this very moment: this could be not only distracting, but it may become messy if two people submitting different versions of its text simultaneously. Give it some timeout --Vadim Shlyakhov (talk) 14:12, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Short Addresses[edit]

I'm a new contributor but have been entering full addresses as would be needed for a sat nav or routing app (where just the street name would not be adequate). I note you've been editing out the full addresses and wondered if this was practice and if it limits utility (e.g. cyclist out touring might want full address (incl postcode) to get a route? I'm not aware of general practice on the site but was entering what I'd need if touring so I'm unsure (hence asking)

Aware of problems it can cause after the Apple Maps problems with MapKit where app developers have had to bypass Apple "modifying/shortening" the address because of these problems.PsamatheM (talk) 18:45, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

  • It has always been standard practice to trim out cities' names in addresses of listings on the respective pages, for brevity and avoidance of redundancy. The importance of the post codes on the context you mention, however, is really not to be overlooked. There has been talk about this issue in a lot of articles about places in England and Wales. I'll pay attention to save them from now on. However, let's agree, Eat or Sleep listings on (e.g) the Lhomme article don't really need "Lhomme, France" on their addresses. Ibaman (talk) 19:23, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
    • Please don't think I'm "disagreeing", just I've been helping one of the major Calendar app supplier for Apple platforms (iOS & macOS) get to the bottom of and debug issues Apple have been causing them with the MapKit API where Apple think they can abbreviate an address and take too much out and even they cannot then locate it on a map (correctly, so they just mark the wrong place). It is particularly bad in the UK (East Anglia particularly), but France can suffer due to the size of their postcode areas (unlike the UK) so ambiguity is far more common e.g. "Place de la Republique, 72250". I'm a new contributor so not for me to come on and immediately start wanting to change everything others have already discussed. I think a lot depends on how an address is being used - use it within e.g. WikiVoyage and the town is redundant, but look to cut and paste the address into e.g. a navigation app (e.g. turn by turn directions to get you there) and suddenly you have an address that "does not work" and you have to start manually edit it to put back in the missing (and crucial) components.PsamatheM (talk) 21:29, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
If I may interject: You should make this point at Wikivoyage talk:Listings. Feel free to link to this discussion when you do. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:32, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Listings and Postcodes and Addresses and Abbreviating/Detail[edit]

Thanks for your response. I've replied (on my own page) with rather long (and rambling?) thoughts on the WikiVoyage practice of shortening/removing elements/etc. of addresses. Some responding to your comment (appreciated) but a longer bit on my thoughts as to why the practice significantly lowers the usefulness of the WikiVoyage dataset. I include thoughts there as I am unsure as to the best place to post them for any public discussion hopefully towards a new "improved" consensus for best practice ... My thoughts/response User_talk:PsamatheM#Listings_and_postal_codes

Your WV:Tone edits on Sosúa[edit]

Please note that I have started a discussion in the pub and want you to weigh in there, before reinstating your edits. I am a bit on the fence of this issue, but clearly a substantial part of the community seems to have a different opinion from yours.

All the best. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:39, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

California dynamic map[edit]

Thanks for helping out with the map. I am trying to get all 50 US states (Nevada's done) up to scratch as well, along with all UK counties. We will need to fix the See section though and decide which city isn't immediately noteworthy (as a foreigner, probably Santa Barbara). —The preceding comment was added by Inferno986return (talkcontribs)

Pardon me for interjecting, but why is it useful to have a dynamic map of any state? I would think that at the state level, especially for a huge state like California, we want only static maps. Also, as a non-foreigner but an East Coaster, I would disagree that Santa Barbara is not noteworthy. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:22, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Unfortunately for me, I've never been to California and cannot have an opinion (farther than wanting Yosemite and Sequoia/King's Canyon National Parks featured). What I did was, there were two dynamic maps on this page, whose geomarks were overlapping. One had to go, but the features have to be sorted; on doing that, we now have ten cities. As I said, I cannot have an opinion on this subject. Ibaman (talk) 19:28, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
California is bigger in both area and population than a very large number of countries. Does that influence your opinion on this matter? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:17, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
Of course it does. I wish to get to know the region one day. The beaches and the desert and the Sierra Nevada and all the National Parks (Yosemite, Sequoia, Reyes Point, Death Valley etc. etc. etc.) What I meant was, I'm not in a position to judge which of the ten cities must be delisted. Ibaman (talk) 11:49, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Oh, I see! I would think that either Bakersfield or Fresno should be the odd one out, as neither are big draws for tourists. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:10, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Wait, are you denying the incredible touristic value of those metropolyses of the Central Valley? After all, it is there that America's first high speed rail line will be built. SCNR. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:46, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

As a close wiki-companion, thought you should know[edit]

Moving.jpg Notice of account creation and page movement
I, have decided to create an account, User: Zanygenius please direct all posts to my new talk page.

(Remember what I said about the password rememberance thing? Well, thank God for a notepad!) -Signed, the amazing Zanygenius. Visit my chat page 04:59, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Justice history[edit]

Stub, and I probably don't know very much on the topic outside of the English Speaking world.

Do you know anyone on Wikivoyage that would be able to expand it?

I felt this would be a better article than "History of crime and punishment", as the focus is slightly different. The aim here would be to focus on sites (such as historic legal sites, famous archives.) where the aim was to get "justice" and laws the reflected it, as opposed to an "History of crime" article, which would be a bit darker.. That's not to say "Justice history" can't be rather dark itself in places, if you look at places like the UK. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:38, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

  • Well, being Brazilian, with a Latin cultural background, I would start with Roman law. Maybe Ancient Egypt or even Hammurabi. The Spanish Inquisition and the French Revolution should be mentioned. I'm by no means an expert on this area but would like very much to contribute. Ibaman (talk) 19:50, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
    • Thanks, Look forward to the stub being expanded in the near future then :).

And yes the distinction between Roman law systems, Civil law systems , and Common Law systems (like the UK, Commonwealth and US) deserves a mention as the history is different. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:09, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Every empire had laws, including the Chinese Empire, ancient Israel, the Caliphates, you name it. But what's the travel angle? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:22, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
Well some famous precedents perhaps happened at places you can visit? Is the rail car, Homer Plessy was in, to deliberately break a stupid law, still in existence? What about the former home of Richard & Mildred Loving? What about the site where the Code Napoleon or its step-cousin the BGB (which in turn inspired Japanese Civil Law) were written? Still the travel angle seems not all that broad... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:45, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Yes, another US site would be the Topeka school that was sued in Brown v. Board of Education. But a real effort is needed to keep an article like this travel-relevant. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:20, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Hmm.. You seem to have the right idea, another one would be the Tolpuddle martys museum, in that it relates to legal events that effectively inspired a number of subsequent labour rights movements. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:54, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
There's also the monument in Ottawa for the 4 women who sued to end the prohibition on women becoming senators in 1929. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:18, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Attribution of Talk[edit]

I see you deleted Phrasebook International. Talk still has much of the wordings copied over when Talk was created. Did you do anything to get attribution work? Otherwise I think Talk is a copyright violation in its current form. Four people seem to have been concerned about attribution in the deletion discussion, while I see nobody arguing for it not being an issue. (And shouldn't the deletion discussion be moved to Talk:Phrasebook International]] instead of deleted? It seems to be quite difficult to find now.) --LPfi (talk) 15:10, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

  • I'm sorry to say I overlooked this detail. It seemed to me another simple pcv; I didn't stop and check it carefully. My bad. Ibaman (talk) 12:31, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
    • I'd suggest undeleting it and again turning it into the suggested redirect. --LPfi (talk) 10:21, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes Done Ibaman (talk) 11:55, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

The link above is still red, and it seems to point right. What was done? --LPfi (talk) 05:49, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
  • I thought at the time that you meant the talk page only. Now I undeleted the article itself. Ibaman (talk) 13:51, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
    • Thank you. I now added a link from Talk:Talk#Origin to the last version of Phrasebook International before the redirect was made for the first time. I suppose it is the version used for starting the Talk article. --LPfi (talk) 14:28, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Map of Zug[edit]

Hi ibaman, sorry that I more or less reverted your changes on the map of Zug. But I think the town itself is the main attraction in this region. So it makes sense to zoom to the town itself in my opinion. --Renek78 (talk) 17:38, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Hi there[edit]

Hi there fellow Human. --Warfare910 (talk) 15:54, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

IP blocks, Part 2[edit]

I see you've been warned about this on your talk page on several instances in the past. Again, please do not indefinitely block anonymous IP editors, even in instances where registered users would ordinarily be indefinitely blocked. See Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits#Escalating user blocks. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:53, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Avaition (models)[edit]

It was claimed in a BBC program about model making from the late 1970's that there were model aircraft and scale flying machines before their full size versions. Although it's probably a footnote in the article, I had put in a section for aviation models where this might be worth mentioning if you find the detail. Thanks ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:10, 15 September 2017 (UTC)


Where does the policy you are quoting say that "12:00" is unacceptable when you are using a 24-hour clock? It doesn't. "Noon" is not used in the 24-hr format. Please read the policy you are claiming to be enforcing. Thank you. Ground Zero (talk) 20:41, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Read the section on 24-hour clock formatting, please. That is the section that applies to this article because all of the times in the article are expressed in the 24-hr format. Ground Zero (talk) 21:00, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
WV:TDF#24-hour format says "Use 00:00 for midnight and 12:00 for noon", nothing else relevant in that section that I can see (and it has not been modified lately). --LPfi (talk) 05:39, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Land art trail on Mt. Učka[edit]

Hello, I saw that you put notice on the Land art trail on Mt. Učka - Is this an article? I don't understand where is the problem? It is an itenerary and I follow the sugestions for itineraries, and template to fill it up. --Ursus44 (talk) 18:12, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

  • OK, thank you for the explanation. I removed the external links and some "tout" words... I hope it's better now. Feel free to change anything that is not good. Yes, I'm the author, but this is non-comercial project and I really don't want to present it here in the wrong way. It is situated high on the mountain and everyone can visit it while traveling in Croatia. --Ursus44 (talk) 20:18, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
  • This is not *my* wiki, you know. This decision must be a consensus. I myself read the article and got interested in this attraction; maybe someday I'll get to go to Croatia and check it out. However, even after your last edit, it still reads very promotional. The art installation is original and beautiful, you must be proud of your work. We all understand that. If it was, say, an amusement park, or a spa, the article would already be deleted beacause it would not qualify as an article. Your case is more delicate. Let's hear what other editors and admins here feel about the situation. Ibaman (talk) 20:27, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

My Listing in Paris page[edit]

Hello there Ibaman

Good day to you!

I'm new here and I was wondering why my listing has been removed. I didn't use any promotional language as per the writing guidelines. this is a service which I've used personally and just a recommendation to fellow travellers. That's the best I could do for their reliable service.

Is there any other way I could mention them in the text. let me know

Awaiting yours.




Enviei um email a você, Abs. Guga1248 (talk) 12:19, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

  • O email foi lido. A resposta é: aprenda a assumir responsabilidade por aquilo que escreve para ser lido em público. Ibaman (talk) 12:57, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Pode apenas reduzir para 3 dias ou 1 dia? Guga1248 (talk) 15:35, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Por favor! Guga1248 (talk) 13:26, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Some articles that might interest you[edit]

Hi Ibaman!

As you might have noticed I just started an airport article for São Paulo-Guarulhos International Airport, perhaps you have some experience with this airport and have something useful to add. Also, Iguaçu Falls will be featured as DotM in December so as an "almost local" you might want to have a look at the article and comment on its nomination. :) ϒpsilon (talk) 16:44, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Varus Battle[edit]

I really don't like the term "Teuteborg Forest Battle" because it implies a geography we don't know. As per this (audio in German) there can hardly have been more than one, two thousand Romans at the battle in Kalkriese, which is way less than three legions at full strength would be. However, there is no other place in Germany that "fits", either. There is still some research to be done to find out what happened and where it happened... Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:10, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

  • Oh well! How I wish I could have already made this trip to Osnabruck and see the evidence for myself. I have recently read Harry Turtledove's "Give Me Back My Legions", that tells the "story" through the viewpoints of Varus and Hermann-aka-Arminius. It's fresh on my memory and surely got me biased. As always, I will trust your judgement, Hobbit, I really enjoy these middle-of-editing small chats we always have. They're always constructive and informative. Ibaman (talk) 18:17, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. I have thus far also not had the chance to visit the place. I have been to Cambodonum once, though. With Latin class, as a matter of fact. Or was it history class? Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:05, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Edit on the Asia page 10:10, 11 December 2017‎[edit]

Hello, I'd like to discuss with you the recent edit you made on the Asia page and why you blocked the anonymous user who made the edit. I believe what that user wrote is accurate; Japanese, Georgian, and Mongolian are not language isolates and the Wikipedia article on language isolates makes this clear ( since these languages are demonstrably part of the Japonic, Kartvelian, and Mongolic language families, respectively. Was blocking his/her IP address and accusing him/her of edit warring really necessary? I'd like to restore what he/she wrote since the original wording of the article in the "Talk" section was misleading. Would that be ok with you? PoetOfSaiMiHunManKal (talk) 10:29, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

  • This is not about "me", it's about Wikivoyage policy and consensus. I'd like this issue to reach consensus on its respective talk page; with that happening, then, and only then, it "would be ok with me". Ibaman (talk) 10:35, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
I think blocking may have been harsh. However we are not a linguistics forum. We don't want to write incorrect stuff, either so we have to thread a tight needle here. I must say that I was dismayed with the dismissive nature of the debate at Talk:Asia as claiming a language is an isolate while it isn't does not in any way help anybody. This does not mean we have to get into protracted linguistic disputes over minutiae, but we should not claim something downright false, either. Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:04, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Correct me if you think I'm wrong, Hobbit, but, on my view, whoever comes to this travel guide to dispute linguistically over such minutiae (or, even worse, to reverse edits and conduct an EDIT WAR) does not *at all* have the traveller as a priority. Ibaman (talk) 14:50, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
I have to say, I don't think it was necessary to block an IP user for one instance of reinstating an edit, with a reason given in an edit summary. I think that it would be more appropriate to end the block and post an explanation to the IP's user page.
  • I'm always very sensitive about anonymous IP numbers edit-warring, and reversing edits by fellow Admins; having said that, I respect your point, Ikan. Will do. Ibaman (talk) 18:54, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Hobbitschuster, in terms of the discussion at Talk:Asia, if you're disappointed with it, please pursue that on the thread. I, too, don't agree with spreading incorrect information. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:43, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your grammar edits to my work.[edit]

Page in question:

Thank you for your grammar edits to my work. I appreciate the correction. --Beelerb (talk) 16:59, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

  • You're welcome. Let's keep on building this awesome travel guide. Ibaman (talk) 17:05, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Stavanger City Map 2018[edit]

Wikimedia has received an e-mail confirming that the copyright holder has approved publication under the terms mentioned on this page. This correspondence has been reviewed by an OTRS member and stored in our permission archive. The correspondence is available to trusted volunteers as ticket #2015011410013126.

  • Your contribution is much appreciated. However, the map formatting is problematic. Could you please produce a Wikivoyage-style map so the Stavanger article complies to our Manual of Style? It would be even more appreciated. I thank you in advance. Ibaman (talk) 22:04, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

SVG version published

Singular they[edit]

While I don't fundamentally disagree with this edit (though it does introduce a presumption of all pilots being male which was not previously there and which might be problematic), please do note that "singular they" has been around for a long time and continues to be used for various purposes. (and here is a Tom Scott video). Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:13, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

  • I see . And I can also get your point gramatically. I'm glad to keep learning things from you Hobbitschuster. Ibaman (talk) 22:32, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Haiti description - collaboration request[edit]

Hi Ibaman, I don't disagree that Haiti is poor - however, could there be anything more relevant to mention on a travel page? This tag "Haiti, the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere" is a media stereotype that in 2018 we could hope to move on from. You wouldn't see a city in American highlighted as "Americas poorest city" or "Poorest city in New York State" Or North Korea as the poorest country in Asia or CAR as the poorest country in Africa.

The values of Wikivoyage seem to align that poverty porn should not be encouraged in general. Additionally, there are many other angles to Haiti that could be mentioned here and many more things relevant for a traveller to make a choice to go to this country.

Could you please re-consider and work together with me on this?

I would like to encourage more of my personal contacts that are Haiti/Caribbean travellers to contribute to the Haiti page, and this would be a great place to get started in a positive and realistic manner. What do you think?

References for alternative current Haiti

BTW if there is a better place to have this conversation, please let me know or help me move it. I am new, and responding the call-out for new editors and new content. Hope this is a friendly space and I look forward to contributing more.

J-wonder (talk) 00:04, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

I think I originally wrote at least part of this blurb. Let me stress that I am not married to it. I think the bit about the Haitian Revolution shows a part of Haitian history that Haiti can be proud of. I have been to the second part country of the Americas and as far as I have heard Haiti is much harder hit than Nicaragua. I think we should address the reputation in some way though I don't know if necessarily in the blurb. If you want to draw more eyeballs you can also raise the issue in the pub Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:16, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the background and being open to working on this together Hobbitschuster (talk). The first part of the blurb is fine, even Haitians have a lot of interest in that part of their history. What do you mean that Haiti was much harder hit than Nicaragura? As someone who lives and travels in Haiti I don't think it's appropriate for the poverty should be addressed at all this section. The reality of travelers to Haiti today is beaches, market life, tap-taps, Carnival (happening now) and nice very hotels. The tourist make-up remains a lot of mission groups, NGO workers (they get out a lot on the weekends actually and would potential use this resource), a dwindling UN contingent that should be all gone in 2 years, and increasingly the Haitian Diaspora and other returnees. There is a trickle of independent and adventure visitors that has the most opportunity to increase. With USA late-night host Conann O'Brien's recent visit the booking numbers reportedly have already gone up. J-wonder (talk) 01:18, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
I raised the issue in the pub Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:14, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Pinging: User:Barbara (WVS), User:Gilles2014, User:Ageency, User:Katxis:

Some contributors to Wikivoyage have a question about the best way to describe Haiti in Caribbean#Countries and territories, from the viewpoint of a traveler. Do you think that it's fair to call out Haiti's reputation for being the least wealthy Caribbean country in that list? Is there something else that you think is more salient?

(See Wikivoyage:Welcome, Wikipedians for general information about Wikivoyage, and, yes, we probably should try to steal User:J-wonder for the w:ht:Haitian Wikipedia, but let's all pretend that we're not going to do that until at least next week, okay? 😸) WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:26, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping-I would never have discovered this conversation. I'm a little unsettled about the whole idea that an editor on Wikivoyage can say things like Haiti is the poorest country and use the phrase 'grinding poverty' without some kind of reference. Isn't it better to use terms used by Haitians themselves? At this point I don't know what those terms might be. Granted, I've only been in Cap Haitian for a short time, but no one I was with needed to apologize for their 'grinding' poverty. Isn't a bit more neutral to list a per capita income? That would be a little more objective. It is also unsettling to think that travelers have to be warned to be somehow prepared to see what they will see. I don't travel as much as I would like, unfortunately but have always considered my self fortunate enough to be able deal with people in a way that is not based upon their income. I've known grinding poverty and because I am proud (and vain) I would not like to be reminded of it. We tend to blame people for their poverty and I don't like to seeing what I read in the description of Haiti. Only my opinion, btw. Best Regards, Barbara (WVS) (talk) 07:45, 11 February 2018 (UTC) (temporary administrator on ht:Wikipedya)
It is emphatically not the fault of Haitians that they are in such a bad way. Instead, as I understand, historically it's been overwhelmingly the fault of France and the United States, which never forgave enslaved people from the African Diaspora for successfully overthrowing their masters, imposing trade sanctions and requiring reparations for stealing property by freeing themselves! Subsequently, the U.S. dominated Haiti, either directly or by installing one corrupt, brutal dictator after another. In recent years, even United Nations "peacekeeping" forces (odd in a country not at war) have severely compounded the problems there by importing cholera and sexually assaulting Haitians. So the problem I see is that the sentence order and context for the grinding poverty could be made clearer.
But where I disagree strongly is that just because a lot of people have bought into the propaganda of right-wing "Devil take the hindmost" capitalists that poor people are to blame for their poverty is no reason to ignore the existence of poverty, nor the fact that visitors will witness it unless they are solely going on cruises to resorts cut off from the rest of the country. I have not been to Haiti, but I went to India in 1977 and wouldn't have minded being given a clear forewarning that my parents and I would be repeatedly surrounded by crowds of child beggars in Delhi. Despite having lived in Malaysia for the previous two years before that, I had never experienced that (Malaysia was an upper-tier developing country in those days, and while I saw poor people in Medan, Indonesia literally eating garbage, itself a shocking experience, we hadn't been surrounded by child beggars there). Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:33, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
The current version says, "Founded by former slaves who won first their freedom and then independence against the might of revolutionary and Napoleonic France. Today, Haiti is the poorest country of the Americas, having struggled against conflicts and natural disasters in recent years." Do you think that provides the kind of useful information that a traveler might need?
(Right now, I'm thinking that the recent US State Department's warnings about violent crime might be of more immediate interest to a traveler.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:18, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
It misses everything in between independence and the disasters of the last few years. Even the hurricane was a lot worse because Haiti, deliberately impoverished by France and the U.S., was forced to chop down all its forests for fuel and left with no protection against flooding. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:38, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
It's not particularly tourism focused, I must say... Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:50, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
As I excuse myself of being absent for the last few days - with not enough free time to do more than quick spam-mopping duty - I thank all of you for carrying on with this discussion, and engaging its important points. Wikivoyage is the best. Ibaman (talk) 13:26, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
User:J-wonder suggested "Today, Haiti has relative political stability and security and is once again becoming a tourist destination for those seeking a road less traveled". I'm not sure that quite hits the mark, either. Maybe we could find something between the two?
The travel advice from the UK is very similar to that from the US: robbery is a serious problem, kidnappings aren't unusual, and demonstrations happen frequently. The advice felt more a lot more like "don't travel at night, don't walk around town, don't carry much cash, don't go into certain neighborhoods at all" than "there's missing windows and dirt and beggars". Given this, I wonder whether these might be the relevant points:
  • The southwestern parts of the country are still affected by hurricane damage.
  • Some parts of the country currently have significant problems with crime and security.
  • It might be appealing to someone looking for an unusual destination ("a road less traveled"). WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:29, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────While I agree that all of this should be mentioned in the "Stay Safe" section, does it really belong in the blurb? Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:18, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Karnataka edit[edit]

Dear Sir

Thank you for the editing

Well, i just want to take off some of the smaller Towns and add some larger Towns in that page. Considering the page limit is 7+2, can i edit the number of towns to keep it at max of 9, adding some of them and deleting a few of them which I feel are quite smaller

Kindly please let me know the same

  • Thank you for replying. Such edits are never done unilaterally on Wikivoyage; they require consensus. You should start proposing on the article's talk page which cities should or not be on the list and why. If no one objects or contests your proposal, then you may proceed with the change. Please refer to our Manual of Style whenever you feel the need. Regards Ibaman (talk) 18:51, 8 February 2018 (UTC)


There's an important difference between spammers and touts that must govern what you do when handling problem editors like the user above.

Even though they're doing so as a means to promote their own businesses, in a certain way touts are here to help build a travel guide: they do add listings to articles, albeit with promotional language, flowery prose, etc. With a bit of guidance, it's possible to turn a tout into a productive editor, so by all means you can welcome a tout on his talk page with Template:Tout.

However, User:Pearlconstruction was not a tout but a spammer. He's never going to edit in mainspace; he's just here to post ad copy on his user page so that search engines will pick it up. Don't waste your time welcoming spammers with the tout template, or leaving notes on their talk page gently reminding them that spam is not allowed. Just delete everything and block them.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:33, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

  • Roger, Andre. I've been through some mobile phone hardware problems lately, and this interferes with my operational decisions, clouds my judgement, sometimes (and is the reason why I didn't reply instantly)... maybe we should produce a "subst:spammer" template to employ in such cases. But I see and get your point. Will comply. Let's keep it up. Ibaman (talk) 17:42, 16 February 2018 (UTC)