User talk:Ibaman/Archive 2019

Paw paws

Have a look at w:Asimina triloba. I don't know if I've tried this fruit, but you will see that it is not a papaya. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:32, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

• Well, thanks for the heads-up IK. I have read a lot of books on travel and literature that call papayas "pawpaws", and felt confused. I like a lot of Annonaceae fruits (they're abundant and popular down here), but this one I have never seen or heard about. Obviously papayas and pawpaws are very dissimilar and not related. Ibaman (talk) 14:47, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Your confusion is totally understandable. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:53, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

I also learned something new :) ϒψιλον (talk) 15:05, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

69.119.123.19

if you do not like the edits explain in user talk page and in the undo. Maybe give a reason and a block could be considered. --Traveler100 (talk) 17:26, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

• I did! I put obvious on most of them. The user in question made some quality edits, though. Ibaman (talk) 17:48, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Editing people's user pages

My friend, I really disagree with edits like this. It's to my understanding a cardinal principle of Wikivoyage that no-one except the user him-/herself edits their user page, other than to delete it for violation of Wikivoyage policies. I would go so far as to say that making someone's user page - which is supposed to be where they introduce themselves to readers - say "Wikivoyage tolerates no spam, sorry" constitutes vandalism. The thing to do is delete the page and then post the no-spam notice on their user talk page - or just permanently block the user if they seem like an outright spambot. I will do that in this case. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:09, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Recent edit that was reverted

The edit by TheYoungTourist388 about the village of Pakistan is a Telstra edit, so really there's no point in explaining why you are doing the reversion. Just in case you didn't know, if you see usernames like the one above that make unconstructive edits, it's not a user that wants to work with us.

See User talk:Brendan John Williams. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:29, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Apologies

In case you don't notice my comments elsewhere, my sincerest apologies for the mistake I made that stopped you from editing. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:28, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

• It was on the side of overcautious, no problem, I understand. Wikivoyage rules. Ibaman (talk) 01:31, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Why u have reverted my contributiion in wikivoyage page about Banlung

Hi. Golf nights. I have got one contributiion adding information in the page of Banlung on wikivoyage. I dont understand why u have reverted the information if its its verídic. U van contrast on web page. After there are information about one travel Agency with link not good and nobody quit this information. I can not understand why u don t accept good information. Pitxiquin (talk) 13:30, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Banlung

Hola. Veo que entiendes el castellanisme. Perdona que te escriba en este idioma. Lo domino mas que el ingles. Yo no sou vandalico. Sou editor experto de la Viquipèdia en català. Puedes verlo si quieres. Lo inici que me història és saber que he echo mal editando la informació certera y veritable que he añadido de una agència de viajes local. No tengo ningún interès en la misma, solo añado informacion por si alguien quiere buscar un guia local indígena que le explique el funcionamento y como vivien las gentes locals. No entiendo que hay de mal en Ello. Y Mas cuando contrasto la información con una pàgina web que funciona y avala la informacion. Si me puedes explicar que hago mal, agradeceria que lo explicaràs en vez de borrar la información y proteger la pàgina. Gràcies. Atentamente, Pitxiquin. Pitxiquin (talk) 14:03, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

• Hello. Please read our policies on WV:Tour and External links and Don't tout and Welcome, business owners. Tour agencies are a really sensible topic in Wikivoyage. Thanks for showing interest in engaging in constructive conversation. Most people do not. Ibaman (talk) 14:18, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

edit summary removed

Please do not overuse visibility censorship. Removing text from an article is not the same as adding offensive language or adding personal information about someone. --Traveler100 (talk) 20:15, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

The "Fuerdai on wheels" guy deserves full WV:Deny recognition. I'm vigilant and will do my best to not overuse my admin rights. Ibaman (talk) 20:47, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Dates (spelling out months)

FYI, WV Manual of Style says, "Abbreviate months to three letters—Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec—in lists, listings and where space is at a premium, such as in a table." (my emphasis) In other words, it points out an exception to the spelling out of months in full. Seligne (talk) 08:04, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

If you are around ...

... can you please block Special:Contributions/Modulation scheme for template vandalism? Thanks Maxim (talk) 18:46, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for showing no respect for other peoples' work, disregarding Talk discussions and removing significant portions of pages without discussing first. I am out of Wikivoyage. Keep whatever you want. I hope fewer people will behave like you in the future.

Revision deletion

Hi Ibaman. Thank you as always for helping out in the struggle against vandalism. A few pointers, though. Because this is a WMF site that operates according to the spirit of freely shared information and all that jazz, we have to be very judicious when it comes to revision deletion. One of the things a lot of people were concerned about when we started revision-deleting edits from the Fuerdai vandal, LibMod, and those guys is that the practice would become normalized and would start to be used against ordinary vandals as well. Obviously we don't want our editors referring to Somalia as "some garbage African country lol", but please take into account the difference between that kind of thing and, for example, doxing other editors, using the N-word, or making real-world threats. All vandalism should be reverted, but only the absolute most serious misconduct should be revision-deleted. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:20, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Request

Can you please tell me how we can the Auto-Patrolled rights here on Wiki Voyage? (Just asking.). Arep Ticous 15:37, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

• Sure I can tell you. Admins can grant autopatroller status. Ibaman (talk) 16:38, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks... how long do you think it would take me to get the rights? Arep Ticous 16:40, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Apologies for this edit

I'm sorry about this, but User:190.153.65.158 has really made a mess of things by inserting lots of uncredited copypasta that had to be removed. Let me know if I can help you add back anything that is not copypasta. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:31, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Apologies for this edit

"Many articles in Wikivoyage can benefit from links to Wikipedia articles on the same subject."

I believed the links to be compliant. Can you edit the Wikipedia links to the way you believe to be official/preferred, rather than just repeatedly deleting them please? Thanks for being more constructive.

• Please state your case in Wikivoyage talk:Links to Wikipedia if you disagree with this policy. Thanks for the cooperation. Ibaman (talk) 15:28, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

I don't disagree with the policy. It appears that you do, or that you don't understand the policy. The policy states, "Many articles in Wikivoyage can benefit from links to Wikipedia articles on the same subject.", but it appears that you DO object to this, or that you don't understand the policy. Please revert your reversions.

• It's not only me; this style of linking is very, very frowned upon in WV. The community as a whole is always undoing such links whenever they appear. If I reverted, some other Admin would undo it. Please, please, with sugar on top, take it to the article's talk page if you really, strongly feel these WP links should stand. Ibaman (talk) 20:53, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for your work today, reviewing and reverting edits. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:48, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

• My pleasure. Wikivoyage is the best. Ibaman (talk) 17:51, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Prague

Hello Ibaman, you have undo my changes to Prague page, but with not clear reasons. I have read the guidelines and posted an update based on that. Can you please tell what should be changed so it can be listed? Can you please tell what is the difference between my posting and the business listings listed there?? Thank you.—The preceding comment was added by Hejazz (talk • contribs)

• Thank YOU for the heads-up. Listings for "Escape games" and "tours" and such commercial activities are very frowned upon, per WV:Tour and Don't tout, and even more in the "big city" article; they could be listed in the proper district's article, with acceptable non-promotional language. Wikivoyage is no free advertisement space. Ibaman (talk) 18:52, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

To my knowledge, there's no rule against listing escape games; on the contrary, it's how you list them, and where you list them that is the issue. If you put listings for escape rooms in their proper district article, and don't use promotional language, there will be no problem. All the best, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:00, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

• Still not clear what is the difference between the wording in my post here:

CityQuester Sightseeing Scavenger Hunt in Prague. CityQuester is type of city quest tour that combines a fun of scavenger hunt game with a private walking tour. Suitable for groups of all sizes. €15-18 per person depending on number of team members. and the wording of the other listing in the same section here: Treasure Hunt Prague, Treasure Hunt Prague is a dynamic team competition, that makes use of modern technology and GPS-enabled tablets and lets you visit a wide range of Prague's historical monuments in a record time. Suitable for larger groups and companies.

Posting "tout" templates on user pages

Hi, Ibaman, and thank you very much, as always, for your great and extensive work reverting spam and touting, etc., etc. I'd like to ask you, though, when you revert touting, please put the {{subst:tout}} template on the user's talk page. I often find myself following up by doing that, and I'm currently away from home with a very spotty Wi-Fi connection. It saves time to do that, because then any admin is justified in blocking the touter's posting privileges the next time, as they were duly warned.

Thanks a lot!

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:59, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

I try to never forget this. Will keep on trying. Let's go on improving this awesome travel guide. Ibaman (talk) 13:23, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Amen. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:17, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

request

Thank you for checking up on Mannar. I would really like some advice right now... if you are willing to give me a few pointers before starting again... Arep Ticous 13:34, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

• The Policies and the Manual of style are always the best place to start. Read them really well, please. Happy editings Ibaman (talk) 13:41, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

From what you added about restaurants, I'd say one thing you should avoid is stating the obvious. If a piece of advice is true around the world, there is no need to put it in a specific destination article — except a country article, perhaps. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 14:27, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Blocks for indefinitely banned users evading their user blocks

...should be a minimum of 3 months for anonymous users (arguably more for IPv6 addresses, which are more stable than IPv4) and indefinite for registered accounts.

Good looking out, though. Keep up the vigilance.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:02, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

While I generally agree, this assertion about IP addresses is not supported by the text at Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits#Escalating user blocks: "Three-month block...For IP addresses (rather than user accounts), user blocks of longer duration than this should be avoided, as addresses may be re-assigned or have different users." Of course it says avoided and not never ever used, but we do have to consider IP address reassignment. And the text gives no consideration to the case of indefinitely-blocked folks using IP addresses to circumnavigate the block.

As is often the case on Wikivoyage, a proposal to extend the maximum to six months fizzled out after a few comments. I see little point in reopening the same discussion, but I think a modified proposal along the lines of Andre's argument would probably pass; deploying successively longer IP blocks for block-evading vandals or former Wikivoyagers. It's a common sense policy, but as ever it's better to specify it in writing, lest there be accusations of arbitrary use of admin powers.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:24, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

• Yeah, the IP addresses are a fickle and volatile thing. As for my opinion, a week-long ban would work. But I won't argue, I will comply. Trolls shall not prevail. Ibaman (talk) 19:46, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

That policy is long overdue for a rewrite, and I'm disappointed to hear from TT that an earlier effort fizzled out. As far as I've heard, because we will essentially never run out of IPv6 addresses (there are 3.4 x 10³⁸ possible unique ones), they were designed to be used once and never recycled after they expire, so theoretically they can be blocked indefinitely without worries. In any event, since policy doesn't speak in absolute terms, I think it's probably okay to fudge the rules a little bit with IPv6 addresses. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:24, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

How can you tell what kind of IP address you're dealing with? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:14, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Ikan - 174.214.7.249 is an example of an IPv4 address. 2600:1017:B119:A8FA:6BE9:FF89:606C:8DD5 is an example of an IPv6 address. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:50, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

I see. So basically, if it's long and includes letters, you can block it essentially indefinitely. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:59, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Right. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:01, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

But that is unimportant. Blocking somebody every three months is no big deal. What user will return every three months to make a few edits and then wait out the new block anyway? Three months is plenty of time to forget about WV or find a way to get a new IP address. Long blocks are useful only if changing IP address is difficult. Ordinary home users get new addresses routinely, those with a server that needs a static address probably have the know-how to get parallel disposable addresses, and where the IP address is out of the user's control, such as in schools and libraries, many other people will probably be affected. --LPfi (talk) 07:39, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Attica

Why revert my edits?--2A02:587:440A:5D3A:6D37:3E36:48CC:C19E 13:03, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

• We have an obvious policy, you know. When the first sentence of an article says " It's the region of Athens the Greek capital", it becomes unimportant to reaffirm it on every other sentence. Ibaman (talk) 13:42, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

1 is the historic region of athens city-State 2 Lavrion and rafina serves as the alternative ports of Athens 3 perfectures no more existed, now is region since 2010. Sorry for my english--2A02:587:440A:5D3A:6D37:3E36:48CC:C19E 14:41, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Tone and negative review

Hello Ibaman, You have undone some edit on Baliem Valley. It is a good thing has the sentence was not neutral enough. Thus, I think people should be aware of behaviours which are ungoing there. If 'acting like savage' is clearly inappropriate, avoiding children seating on benchs is a fact and participates in the tourism experience. Perhaps adding the date ? Giving more information about ongoing context ?

Thank you four your help.

Emmanuel

• Here's the text you mention: " This is very touristic event with tourists and indonesian police behaving like papuan people are savages : taking photos of people as attractions, forbiding the access to shed bench to papuan children...". Frankly, it's not very comprehensible. It could be written more clearly. Ibaman (talk) 12:51, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Kankakee

Why did you mass up my edit about the FLW home? Now, there's no link or an explanation of what "home" means!

Please get back to me ASAP,

~CavSquad

You blocked an IP address

Thanks for doing that. I found an instance of unreverted vandalism by him and reverted it. Bellingham (Washington) --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:47, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

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Edit conflicts

Sorry, mate, it seems your reply to our IP friend was lost due to my editing at the same time. If you want to restore it, be my guest. I think we should allow freedom of speech on talk pages, as long as it's about the article.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:25, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Why do you keep editing the Middle East article back to its inaccurate nature?

Why do you keep editing the Middle East article back to its inaccurate nature?

the Middle East is not synonymous with Western Asia nor is it exclusive to West Asia. Why did you re-edit back? This is the correct introduction... "The Middle East is a region in western Asia and north-eastern Africa. The term was created by British military strategists in the 19th century, and definitions of the Middle East vary; it is not simply a geographical term, but also a political one, connoting that it separates Europe ("the West") from the Far East." Saying Egypt is not part of the Middle East but part of Africa is just as ignorant as saying "Saudi Arabia is part of Asia, not the Middle East". The Middle East has never been a continent nor is it synonymous with West Asia. Africa and Asia are continents, the Middle East is a transcontinental region(extends to multiple continents) that is geopolitical meaning its geographical territory is solely based on shared Politics, shared Culture and shared History rather than a shared continent.

Also Where is Cairo? Why is the capital of the region not Added? Cairo is literally the Cultural and political center of the Middle East yet it is not included here? hmm and when I tried to include it, you oblivious people deleted it. Why don't you actually let people from the region like me give you an advice on what is the Middle East instead of being completely oblivious and deleting accurate and correct edits? and why are their contradictions on your article? At one point in the article you acknowledge that Egypt is a Middle Eastern country and another section Egypt and Turkey are under the "Go next" section, implying that Egypt and Turkey are not in the Region as is they were a different destinations to go next after a trip to the Middle East. It is like saying "im going to Saudi Arabia After I get our of the Middle East" which is baffling

The Middle East's geographical territory is solely based on shared politics, shared history and shared culture rather than a shared continent which is not the criteria of the region’s geographical makeup. 

Anyways, the geographical territory of the Middle East was created way before the Western term. It was created by Arab geographers and Historians such as ibn Khaldun in the Middle Ages and the main criteria was to split the Western Berber Arab countries(Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco) from the Arab mainlands(Egypt, the Levant, The Arabian peninsula and Iraq) the non Arab countries were added to the list when the western terms were created in the 19th and 20th century(Iran, Turkey, Israel and Cyprus). Anyways, the western part of the Arab world was called the “Maghreb” which is an Arabic word meaning “Where the sun sets” referring to the Western part of the Arab world, the other half of the Arab world, if you will.

Also context is very important when it comes to geopolitical regions and I want to bring up something regarding North Africa and that is when we say “North Africa” in modern terms, we are actually talking about the Maghreb Berber region rather than the literal meaning of “North Africa” which originally used to simply mean the Northern upper part of Africa. So we are talking about Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya not Egypt. Egypt is in the Middle Eastern region.

"North African ethnicity Many people from the North African region known as the Maghreb (which encompasses modern-day Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya) trace their roots to the Berbers of antiquity."

• First of all, it's not "my" article. This community has been toiling over it for more than ten years now. As for myself, I have been in arguments like this more than I like to count, on several articles (but this one is a perennial polemic, unsurprisingly). To mantain an online travel guide like ours, the way geography must be subdivided might never satisfy every member of this community. I would even invite you to witness similar situations in Talk:United States of America or Talk:Lima. That's why we work by discussion and consensus. The questions you raised today have been already discussed several times before; that's why I asked you to read all the discussion. All this time and energy spent over this discussion will not automatically be discarded just because a new user shows up claiming to have definitive solutions. You have the option to understand and join the discussion "the Wikivoyage way", argue your point, achieve consensus, and then make necessary changes; you also could invent the "ArabPridePedia" and write whatever strikes your fancy, and never have to argue or justify your edits. Hope you get the point. Happy editings Ibaman (talk) 21:00, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Great Lakes

I was adding some updated information about the Great Lakes, particularly with regard to Cruising. I tried to follow the general approach of Cruising on the Baltic (https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Cruising_the_Baltic_Sea -- as a note, I do realize I left some fragments from that, for which I apologize). However, my edits were deleted.

Some of those were frankly corrections (e.g. adding some of the other Cruising Companies), but it was all deleted. I'd like to go back and still make some edits, but before I do so I'd like to know what specifically caused the deletion so that I don't cross that line again.

Thank you for your assistance and consideration. I actually want to get this right.

• Thank YOU for your concern. I became worried to notice what seemed to me aggregator and travel planning sites; these are unacceptable per our External links#what not to link to and WV:Goals and non-goals policies. Also, you'll notice in the article's history of edits, there were some links to "cities" that I formatted properly, and got messed up in the meantime. This raised my alert level in the "unwanted edits" zone; I apologize for the full hasty revert and thank you again for your attention and concern. Happy editings Ibaman (talk) 23:15, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

post codes in Germany

In one of your recent edits to Berlin/East Central you removed a bunch of post codes (the five digits before the city name). I think this was ill advised, as post codes get pretty fine grained in Germany and often help disambiguate streets with the same name in big cities - such as Berlin. If you enter "Goethestraße 15 Berlin" into a navigation device or Google without a postcode, you won't get where you want to go... Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:18, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

This might be better as a policy discussion. Wikivoyage doesn't use postcodes in its articles at all, with the exception of the UK, because postcodes there aid navigation. If Germany has a similar benefit, of course an exception can be made there too, but it should be handled at a community level, so we can all be on the same page and roll out the changes across Germany articles (if agreed upon) rather than the two of you deciding something for a single district article. That way, we're consistent with our policy, and we can adopt a better practice across the wiki, rather than piecemeal.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:45, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

• I see and respect your point, Hobbitschuster. I figured out that to make the listings on the East Central Berlin nightclubs cleaner would do no harm whatsoever to the traveller; if it was Dresden or Freiburg I'd do otherwise. If you feel it's better to restore them, let's do it. Ibaman (talk) 23:15, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

I think I raised the issue once in the pub of postcodes in Germany and despite most people agreeing there was no movement. I think we should do the policy change if we can find wherever that policy is but in the absence of this restore the listings to their former postcode including state... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:09, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

I vaguely remember the Pub conversation you mention. Wonder where it was swept to. Somehow I found the policy; it's at Wikivoyage:Listings#Template parameters. Wouldn't the state be the same for every address in East Central Berlin, i.e. Berlin? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:46, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

• Postcodes restored. The district is huge, not all nightclubs are in the same neighborhood, hence the varying postcodes. Ibaman (talk) 18:08, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Vandalism on Philippines page

We're dealing with some IPs vandalizing the Philippines page, and I've reverted an edit done two days ago. I'm inclined to request semi-protection for the page, but I think it's better to temporarily block the IP addresses which have been vandalizing the "Regions" section with vulgar messages (doing a semi might be too hard for IPs doing constructive edits). TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 03:20, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

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Guided Tours section

Hi, I saw that you removed the "Guided Tours" section of https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Dutch_Country. Thanks for the message. I'm not an employee of the business. I'm a local (I live in Lancaster County) that was simply adding it because I've took a scooter tour using that business in June and thought that guided tours would be a helpful section to have. Many people come to Pennsylvania Dutch Country to learn more about the Amish and they do that through guided tours. I'd be happy to add some other tour companies to the list if that would be better. Let me know. Thanks! JustinSayin (talk) 07:40, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

South Korea

In the pub, there is a discussion explaining the unusual edits taking place for South Korea articles. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:42, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Gurgaon Changes

Hi Ibaman,

Regarding the undo action https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Gurgaon&oldid=3853806 about Link Hijacking: I was trying to change a verifiably bad place to stay with a better rated option. I'm not sure why it was considered as hijacking, I have no affiliation with either properties but I do try to maintain the Gurgaon page from time to time. What is the appropriate action here?

Rbtravel (talk) 10:41, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

• Thanks for the heads-up. I've adjusted the article accordingly. Ibaman (talk) 13:40, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

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Edit warring

In this edit with summary "Undo revision 3863191 by W.carter (talk) reverted again for same reasons. PLEASE DO NOT EDIT WAR", I should point out that you yourself are edit warring. Edit warring is simply the repeated reverting of someone else's edit without attempting first to seek and achieve consensus. On a wiki, there is nothing special about any revision. You can't just join in with the war to force whichever version you think should be kept and then keep it there with a warning to others. For what it is worth AndreCarrotflower has realised their mistake at the discussion on Commons. It is quite ridiculous to keep this fake photo on WikiVoyage. I think you owe W.carter and Paul 012 an apology, and if it hasn't been reverted back to a natural leaf-colour version already, please revert your revert. -- Colin (talk) 14:14, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

• Andre is a Wikivoyage administrator, and has been for much longer than I am. We are part of the maintenance team of this great online travel guide, and have worked together for many years on a daily basis. To revert an edit of his will always be perceived by me, if I'm unaware of previous context, as unacceptable edit warring on our travel guide. I stand by his decisions and his edits and whatever he cares to tell me personally about this situation. Ibaman (talk) 15:59, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

I'm active at Commons as well as Wikivoyage, and I agree with Colin and other Commoners on this one and have stated so to Andre. What's more, Andre has come around on this. Look at User talk:AndreCarrotflower#Khlong Lan Waterfall images. Time to give up on this one, IMO. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:04, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

When you screw up and make a fool of yourself online, it is really best to show some humility, accept you made a bad move, and apologise. Instead you have just dug yourself into a bigger hole trying to rationalise your actions. Andre is human and thus fallible. Administrators have no more right to decide content on any wikimedia site than other users. Administrators should not show favouritism in a dispute. Our principles of Assume Good Faith apply to all editors. Your statement says that you assume bad faith on anyone who reverts Andre. You really need to stop that. That's quite fundamentally wrongheaded. Furthermore, in this situation, it makes you both look like foolish bullies because both of you were edit warring to retain a fake. So, I repeat that you owe Cart and Paul an apology. -- Colin (talk) 14:57, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Ibaman, I sincerely appreciate your faith in my judgment as administrator, but the previous commenters are correct: my earlier revert was based on mistaken information. I remain opposed to deletion of the image on Commons, but as far as usage on Wikivoyage is concerned, I think it's best to replace the picture with something else. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:22, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

However, I am going to push back on the penultimate sentence of Colin's most recent comment. Colin, you said yourself that we're "human and thus fallible". Ibaman and myself were both misinformed as to whether the leaves change color seasonally at Khlong Lan, and the user who reverted the edit the first time had no previous contribution history at Wikivoyage. So it looked at first as if we were dealing with an agenda-pushing newbie. Dealing with (i.e. reverting) edits of that nature is something that happens routinely at Wikivoyage, as I imagine is also the case at Commons and on other wikis. In the end Paul turned out not to be a newbie at all, and we all gave our mea culpas, so I hope you can appreciate now why bandying about phrases like "foolish bullies" and "edit warring" is not constructive at this juncture. Our actions were no more foolish and no more bully-ish than any other innocent mistake that people make in life. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:37, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

• Andre, we're a team. We work together, we win together, we lose together. So the previous commenters were correct, and our reverts were based on mistaken information. Duly acknowledged. I stand corrected. Cart and Paul and Colin please accept my mea culpa on this package. Now let's get back to our usual business of building awesome travel guides. Ibaman (talk) 18:52, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Ibaman, we're a team, but my colleagues from Wikimedia Commons have a point. All of us make mistakes, and I don't think you need to or even should assume other admins are always right. Yes, of course that includes me. I'm also sometimes a bit unsure that touters should be blocked when they've greatly reduced the amount of touting, suggesting some kind of effort to comply with our policies. It's OK that we sometimes differ on that, as it's a matter of degree, but let's remain thinking individuals, regardless of what work we've volunteered to do on this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:29, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

I've seen the discussion on Commons, and am aware of the discussion's contents. I regret jumping on it while unsure of the whole context; I also regret some of my actions and comments, made without much ponderation, missing the Wikimedia Commons users' point. Ibaman (talk) 12:31, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you for being on vandal patrol. This is important for keeping Wikivoyage a useful travel guide. Regards, Ground Zero (talk) 19:19, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

• Thank YOU for ALL your tweaks about WV:tdf, WV:units, WV:$, Words to avoid and so forth, and for correcting my edits when needed. Our team is the best. Long live Wikivoyage. Ibaman (talk) 20:25, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Ephrata (Pennsylvania)

Understand that listing should not be in a region, but suggest helping a newby rather than just a simple undo. I have moved the entry to Ephrata (Pennsylvania), hopefully it will encourage them to contribute more. --Traveler100 (talk) 02:32, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Whoa

A vandal that had the audacity to impersonate Wikipedia's Arbitration Committee... Ypsilon (talk) 14:21, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

• Yeah, he's trying to make it stick on Wikibooks right now. I wish I knew how to ring the alarm, wiki-globally-wise. Ibaman (talk) 14:29, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Will you PLEASE stop SHOUTING at people?!

Hello mate. Don't worry. We're cool.

Has anyone ever told you that typing in all caps (like in the manner I demonstrated above) comes across shouty?

Perhaps you mean to use all caps for emphasis, well in that case you can choose italics, bold, *asterisks*, ~tildes~, or any other way you can think of that emphatically emphasises emphasis in an emphatic way. But the consensus on the internets is that all caps means shouting.

Put yourself in different shoes for a minute. You're a new user, you're trying to improve this cool new travel guide you've discovered, and are especially interested in promoting your home town. You've suddenly realised that contributing is not as straightforward as it initially seemed, you can't just edit however you like without people questioning you, and now people are deleting your content. This can be intimidating, but after a day or two you decide to join in a discussion with these people and work out a consensus. You still don't quite understand why the other people are doing what they're doing, so you ask the question. Then a guy with 'site administrator' next to his user name comes along and barks at you "DID YOU EVEN READ THE POLICY? DO NOT ADD ANY MORE IMAGES." How are you going to feel?

OK, I'm exaggerating slightly and glossing over the fact you said please and thank you as well in your post on Talk:Soest. But I'm doing so because I've seen you use all caps at people, usually IP users or newbies, on a number of occasions, in edit summaries and on talk pages. And the general feeling such comments convey whether you intend it or not is "this angry dude is shouting". I don't think that's how you want to come across.

As administrators, you and I both repeat the same stuff to newbies endlessly: "don't tout", "please don't change this without the blessed approval of the Holy consensus", "of course it's in Krakow, Poland, this is the Krakow/Kazimierz article", "bloody located in a great location situated next to the sunset", "too many images!"

It gets boring. It's frustrating.

But each newbie only has that conversation once or twice ever (lucky sods) so when we show our frustration at a newbie for not understanding, we're not being fair to that individual. We don't show our best face to that person. We effectively tell them "I can't be bothered to deal with your shit" even when that may not be true. We tell them "You're not welcome here." even when that definitely isn't true.

Would you be okay with not 'shouting' in future?

Thanks as ever for your great commitment to Wikivoyage. If I'm being critical, it comes from a place of friendship and respect, and because I think you'll get what I'm saying.

Sorry for the long-winded post. All the best, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:32, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

• Don't need to be sorry. I'm conscious that it was an overreaction. I'm conscious that, sometimes, I overplay the "this angry dude is shouting" stance, to emphasize the seriousness with which I carry out my admin duties in Wikivoyage. For a number of reasons, lately my threshold of patience is somewhat low. I'm conscious of all that. All that matters here to me is the creation and maintenance of a great online travel guide. Everything else is secondary. I will try to get creative, not boring or frustrating, on this matter. Thanks for the heads-up. Ibaman (talk) 15:49, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer. I know you take your duties here very seriously. You work very hard on here and, I suspect, in your real job too. If for any reason you ever find that anything or anyone on here is getting on top of you, know that you have a team around you that can step in and take the slack. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:14, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for this discussion. Ibaman, please note my reply in that thread. I'm sorry you're having a hard time in real life. However, if I were in your shoes, I'd probably delete my remark and put an apology in my edit summary. Think about it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:33, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

• Your advice is always sound and helpful, IK. It's a fact, this is not the happiest time to be a Brazilian working with environmental issues. However, I should not, must not, will not vent this unhappiness on our travel guide. I did just what you suggested. It was the best thing to do. Ibaman (talk) 17:53, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I absolutely relate to that. Very dark times for the Americas. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:22, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Why not fun?

Dear Ibaman: https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Hong_Kong&diff=3889422&oldid=3889415 Why my edit is not fun? Listing offices from the same country as "consulates" implies they are not in one country, it's weird. --行到水穷处 (talk) 13:01, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

• WV:SH. Your edit breaks the site-wide consistency of headings and subheadings. It's the longest subheading ever. It looks ugly and out of line with WV:Manual of Style. This is the reason. I hope you don't take it personal. Ibaman (talk) 13:30, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
• You are escaping the problem. I understand the rationalities of these rules of wikivoyage, and also sorry for my unfamiliarity with them. But offices from Beijing and Taipei are not consulates, please help to find a way to state this fact correctly, thank you! --行到水穷处 (talk) 16:43, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

The official name is already stated in the listing. As I said, the traveller comes first, and those offices are where people in Hong Kong need to go to get mainland Chinese or Taiwanese visas, so even though they are not official consulates, they are effectively consulates from a traveller's perspective. For the same reason, we list Hong Kong as a separate country even though it is technically part of China, because it has a separate legal system and different immigration requirements so from a traveller's perspective, it feels like a different country. Politics does not matter here. All we care about is what the traveller's experience is. The dog2 (talk) 16:52, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

• I stand by TheDog2 and his justification for this edit: "They may not be officially called consulates, but because they are where you to go to get visas, they effectively function as consulates from a traveller's perspective." The traveller comes first. The aforementioned offices, technically, are not consulates, BUT they are indeed the places to go to get visas, THEREFORE they effectively function as consulates from a traveller's perspective. Simpler is better. We don't need to reinvent the wheel. Please don't try to fix what ain't broke. Happy editings Ibaman (talk) 16:53, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
• Thanks for your reply, I have a proposal, adding "As the relationships are not country-to-country, China Mainland and Taiwan don't have consulates in Hong Kong. However, offices with similar functions are set, also listed here." to that paragranph, is this breaks any rule of wikivoyage? --行到水穷处 (talk) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Done I must say I think the added bit is borderline obvious, but, hey, it's done. Ibaman (talk) 18:24, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

I've adjusted it slightly. Our job here is not to take sides with regard to the independence movements in Hong Kong and Taiwan, but solely to provide information about the situation on the ground and how it affects travellers. The dog2 (talk) 18:38, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks!--行到水穷处 (talk) 04:36, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Annotated radio station list in Seattle

Hi, Ibaman. I reverted your deletion of that list, because we've allowed such lists in other articles. Please feel free to start a discussion at Talk:Seattle, or if you'd like to make it a global one, Wikivoyage talk:Listings or Wikivoyage talk:Avoid long lists, I suppose. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:29, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Amsterdam

Hello Ibaman,

I added our company on this page above as an option for people that are imigrating or imigrated to the Netherlands and this got reverted because its commercial related. This is not my or our intentention we want to help people with getting work. We hired my co-worker from India last year december he was just in The Netherlands, lived in Amsterdam and applied with us and is now almost working here for a year, i helped with a bank account, insurence, id card, internet, tv and even got a realy good car for a very good price for him. So i hope that you can see that i am not here for commercial intententions.

• By the way im new since yesterday and need to learn how everything works so i will dive deep into this upcoming week.

Greetings Wesley

12-12-2019

Question about revert

What was wrong with this listing? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:51, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

• ...I'm dumbfounded. My finger must have slipped. I'm reverting it. But I should add, I have always thought this specific article is sooooo heavily loaded with spam and toutism, i keep thinking someday I'll sweep it clean of all non-compliant listings. Ibaman (talk) 13:02, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Please do! Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:10, 20 December 2019 (UTC)