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Should Wikivoyage not crop banners?[edit]

I pushed a few changes to the WikidataPageBanner extension specifically aimed at mobile this weekend. before and after

(You can see for yourself here!) Note no change on desktop! yay!)

However I noticed, if for the Agra example I used the original banner rather than the cropped banner, and applied the origin parameter to do manual cropping, it looked even better on mobile and arguably even better on desktop. (See this example) and this after screenshot.

I thought I'd bring this to your attention. It's obviously a big mindset change... but would it make sense to start using automatic cropping rather than manually cropping? What is needed to enable that? Jdlrobson (talk) 21:08, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

I lack the knowledge to fully understand what this would mean or what would be required technically, but automatic cropping of any kind seems to have one major problem. It does not allow for aesthetic choices in terms of eliminating less desirable parts of images - which we do a lot. The Agra banner is an example of a beautiful source image that can be used in its entirety, but unfortunately that's not the case for all original images. Just a first thought. JuliasTravels (talk) 10:57, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
Hi Jdlrobson , you haven't actually described at all what your change actually was :)
Looking through your links, I get the impression that the change can crop source images for banners automatically. However on Wikivoyage we require all banners to have a ration of 7:1 and therefore automatic cropping is not needed, and in fact not actually desirable at all (for reasons that JuliasTravels stated ) --Andrewssi2 (talk) 11:25, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
Also, what struck me immediately is that the banner size I understand you would like to implement to would make our articles look more like our competitor's.
And as others have asked, would someone have control over what part of the photo (upper/middle/lower/some corner) would be used as banner? Otherwise the result would more often than not look entirely ridiculous (e.g. some asphalt with some feet and legs or just the blue sky). ϒpsilon (talk) 11:36, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Maybe summarising as follows will help: a 7:1 ratio and the current height restrictions should be revisited for mobile devices. The extension provides support for cropping by ensuring the width and heights of the banners meet your specs on desktop and allowing editors to use an origin parameter to specify a focal point (so yes editors can still control where to focus in an image). I'd encourage people to play with the banner code on our test instance with different image sizes and soon Wikivoyage (Wednesday) to explore whether using a different image banner ratio/taller banners provides a better banner experience for mobile users whilst retaining the same experience for desktop users. Potentially you may find cropping is less important than before and that the software can enforce photo requirements.

To be clear I'm not suggesting any changes to desktop banners aesthetic appearance im just suggesting you revisit banner requirements with mobile in mind now you have a more powerful option in your hands that cannot be achieved via templates!

Please let me know if more clarification is needed. Jdlrobson (talk) 14:45, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

The problem is that you are using a non 7:1 image size for Agra, therefore everyone here will likely be confused as to your intention. I suggest that you use the banner we use here on Agra --Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:09, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
I think what Jdlrobson is proposing is we use uncropped images (i.e., non 7:1 images) and then use the "origin" parameter of the extension to focus the banner on the part of the image we want displayed.
I'm still confused about what is being proposed though:
  • Jdlrobson, are you suggesting the banner have a different ratio on mobile than desktop (can it do that)? Or, are you suggesting we consider moving away from 7:1 for both mobile and desktop? -Shaundd (talk) 06:23, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
I'm suggesting the origin parameter can do a lot more for you then manually cropping images to be 7:1 and that using 7:1 is doing harm to your mobile experience..IThe banner here (zoom aside) has the same dimensions as the banner on Agra in Wikivoyage no? However if you view its mobile equivalent it looks much better than before. If you inspect the banner you'll see it uses the original image rather than the uncropped image. The image used for desktop and mobile must be exactly the same resolution on both, using a different image for both mediums is currently not possible. A 7:3 image can look like a 7:1 image on desktop but look taller on mobile where vertically you have more space. Jdlrobson (talk) 06:38, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
If we go back to the original post, we have before and after examples. In terms of mobile I could understand this approach for older smart phones / feature phones with low resolution screens (e.g. 320 pixels), but for the latest Android or iPhones I don't see the Desktop banner as being a problem at all.
I would suggest that technology will make the experience some of us have today on the iPhone 6 / Galaxy S6 fairly widespread in a couple of years. Won't this make things more complex when the problem will go away by itself by virtue of the adoption of newer technology? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 10:48, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
It's not a question of resolution, it's a question of aspect ratio. The display on a mobile telephone is taller than it is wide, which is backward compared to a desktop PC. If anything, desktop screens have been getting wider (8:5 instead of 4:3) since the mid-2000s (decade). K7L (talk) 12:16, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
Yup exactly. The extension banners should pick the right image for the right device (we still need to fine tweak this) but we have more options now we are not using a template. I must confess I don't know exactly what the right aspect ratio is but if banners have a focal area of 320px by say 200px it will look great on mobile. You may find using banners with double the height of the current ones is all that is necessary (we can clip the bottom half easily on desktop) Jdlrobson (talk) 19:11, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
Unless your audience is "well-off people in the developed world only", then it's going to be a long time before "the problem will go away by itself". Newer technology means newer technology for people who can afford it. The "old" technology of low-resolution screens will be in the hands of teenagers, blue-collar workers, and the rest of the world for a very long time. (This might make more sense: You know all those people who still have flip phones? When you started thinking about buying an iPhone 6, they started wondering whether they could afford a cell phone with a low-resolution screen.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 12:54, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure why you put this statement in WhatamIdoing when it was clarified that the rationale was around screen dimensions and not resolution, but you are wrong. The original iPhone was released in 2007 and had a resolution of 320×480, and adoption and corresponding resolutions have been increasing rapidly and that includes the important lower end of the smartphone market.
Wikimedia statistics show clearly that the number of visitors to Wikimedia sites on mobile devices (about 50% of the total audience now) are overwhelmingly with mobile devices with recent (past 3 years) specifications. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 20:41, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
Because I don't believe that "the problem" will go away on its own, because I don't believe that it's a good idea to design a site to assume that it will just go away, and because I don't think that designs should be based primarily on capabilities of people who can already use the site (versus those who want to use the site, but can't because the design makes it painful to use on the devices that they can afford). If you want more readers, and if you want more global readers, then the mobile design needs to work (and work well) on a low-budget phone sold in India a couple of years ago, and not just for the latest iPhone. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:33, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
The site as it is works perfectly fine with a low-budget phone sold in India today. Your outrage at the iPhone owning 1% of capitalists is somewhat misplaced. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:53, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
I've got no problem with Apple or iPhones. My only problem with Android devices is their lousy security model. I'm not outraged about anything—not even the fact that Android's failings has led to some individual users getting hacked. However, I am aware of my privilege, and the fact remains that 99% of the world can't afford a new smartphone every year (or even at all). If you design for "today's" (brand-new) smartphones, then you exclude everyone who can only acquire hand-me-downs and castoffs.
The WMF had the opportunity to do some developing-world simulation testing at one of the big internet companies a while ago. I don't know if a formal report was ever written up about it (presumably it's on mw: if someone did). Essentially, you take your website into a room with an elaborate copy of the internet systems for various developing countries, and you see how much you can use. The results were not pretty. "Works perfectly fine" was not a statement that any of the staff present used to describe the results. WhatamIdoing (talk) 12:47, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
Hi Jdlrobson, I agree the banners would look better on mobile (in portrait mode, anyway) with a different aspect ratio than 7:1. Looking at the test pages you link to, the banner extension seems to auto-crop (for lack of a better word) the source image differently depending on whether it's mobile or desktop. If that's the case, it's an interesting solution that provides more flexibility on how banners are displayed. Before going down that road though, I think we'd need to feel comfortable that the job the banner extension does cropping images is nearly as good as what we do manually now. Otherwise, it seems to open a can of worms for something that I'm not sure is a big problem. Also, how would the 8000+ legacy 7:1 banner images be handled? -Shaundd (talk) 04:35, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Hi Shaundd the great thing about this change is its backwards compatible, so you can update those 7:1 images over time, if they are never updated they'll still work, just won't look as good. The goal would be to increase the height but leave the top half the same as it currently is on desktop. I guess the first step would be to try 7:2/7:3/7:4 banner sizes on a sample of 10 articles to see whether this is plausible and see whether this improves mobile rendering. If we find a better ratio I'd suggest a vote on this page to switch the default to the new proposed one using the 10 examples. The change will go live on Wednesday so you'll be able to experiment with ten pages on that date. Does that sound like a good idea?Jdlrobson (talk) 17:40, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Hi Jdlrobson , this change on Wednesday will have no impact on the existing Banner template right? (changes will be limited to the experimental pages) --Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:23, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Correct. You should notice no difference anywhere (there are no experimental pages on wikivoyage that I know of). However on Wednesday you will be able to experiment on any test pages you choose to with larger banners and I encourage you to do so. Ultimately this is your decision as editors but I highly recommend you revisit the ratio and make this site even more kick ass then its competitors which currently struggle much more with their own mobile experiences! Jdlrobson (talk) 22:27, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
I'll certainly give it a test. It might not be until the weekend though -- the job that pays the bills is quite demanding right now. -Shaundd (talk) 05:29, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
I look forward to seeing how it works! I'm certainly open to a better way of implementing banners, although such a change should require a decent period of evaluation and discussion before formal implementation. Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:59, 22 September 2015 (UTC)


Has anyone explored this to see if they might work better? Jdlrobson (talk) 19:11, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi Jdlrobson, I played with the Origin parameter on a couple of banners. It seems to try to fix the height of a banner to 300px and then scales the width accordingly. The y-coordinate moves the focus up or down in the original image but the x-coordinate has no impact (presumably because the full width of the underlying image is being used). Is it supposed to work that way? -Shaundd (talk) 05:43, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply and exploration Shaundd!! For desktop it enforces a certain maximum height (as you say this is 300px) but allows you to use images that are taller than 300px and as you say move the focus up and down with the y-coordinate. The x-coordinate will kick in at a lower resolution on a mobile view, you can test this by shrinking your screen on the mobile site/Vector to less than 400px. This is the killer feature - you will be able to get better banners displayed on mobile than currently, which is primarily what this parameter was added for. Does that make sense? So to summarise, there should be little different on desktop but a big difference on mobile. Jdlrobson (talk) 19:27, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
Hi Jdlrobson -- I haven't been able to replicate what you described above in mobile view when I use the origin parameter. When I specify origin=x,y, it fixes the height to 300px and uses the full image width as I described above. It doesn't seem to matter what size I shrink the screen to, it always displays the full width of the image. On the other hand, if I view an existing banner (with no origin parameter) and shrink the screen as you described in mobile view, at a certain point it switches to focus in on what seems to be the middle of the banner. I do like what it does in mobile view, it makes the banners more attractive on my cell phone. It doesn't carry over to my 7" tablet though (a 2nd gen Nexus 7), it just displays the traditional banner in mobile view.
The pages I tested the origin parameter on are:
  1. Piran . 1565x1200 . 1412x300 (desktop) . 1000x300 (mobile)
  2. Amboise . 7000x2743 . 1412x300 (desktop) . 1000x300 (mobile)
  3. Vancouver/City Centre . 4200x2794 . 1412x300 (desktop) . 1000x300 (mobile)
The first column after the page name is the original image size, the second column is the size of the banner in desktop view, and the third column is the size of the banner in mobile view. Based on my experience, the width of the banner will vary depending on the resolution of the display. By comparison, banners currently display as 1412x202 on my desktop, so the origin parameter does alter the aspect ratio from the current 7:1. -Shaundd (talk) 22:03, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Shaundd all those banners look ammmazzinnggg on my mobile phone with the use of the origin parameter. Not so good without:,dbaoAUZ,euKY712,hagQgZi
Are you sure you are testing at the right resolution? I'll have to test the desktop equivalents when I'm not mobile...
Jdlrobson (talk) 00:47, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps I was misunderstanding the first time I tested. Based on your link, I'm guessing what you want to see on mobile is the banners from the first two images, correct? -Shaundd (talk) 04:47, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
the issue I'm keen to solve is that on many articles due to the nature of mobile being width constrainted (lets say at 320px) banners render in such a way that it's difficult to make out what they are actually pictures of. The examples in ttp://,dbaoAUZ,euKY712,hagQgZi show that mobile banners when taller carry much more wow factor (in all cases I can actually make out what they are pictures of). In desktop they should look the same as they currently do (if they don't than that is a bug that needs fixing). London I'd an example of a banner that might benefit from this.

Jdlrobson (talk) 15:05, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

On Jupiter, the banner is too tall. Its minimum height seems to be set at 300px but that's too tall for any width less than 2100px. Powers (talk) 22:05, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Have some spare time? DotM needs you[edit]

Fellow voyagers, as you can see in Wikivoyage:Destination_of_the_month_candidates#Upcoming, there are quite a couple of candidates that would (1) need your opinion and perhaps (2) some more content.

Most of these aren't going on the Main Page before 2016, but especially Wikivoyage:Destination_of_the_month_candidates#Grand-Bassam would need some more attention as it's scheduled for OtBP for November, André will soon make Main Page banners for it (I believe), and there's one person opposing the featuring of the article due to that article's perceived low quality/reliability. ϒpsilon (talk) 08:02, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Ruta de Transito has a couple of holes that should be filled with more information, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:10, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
If anyone has been in Dumaguete recently, that article may need some updates, see Talk:Dumaguete#New_place_on_Rizal. Pashley (talk) 13:18, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
We now have 11 articles in the table that would benefit from an approving vote or constructive criticism. Actually one of them is Praia, up for OtBP in November, which means a little more than two weeks. ϒpsilon (talk) 16:05, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

A suggestion for an addition to all of our phrasebooks[edit]

In my opinion it might be a good idea to add the phrase "I love you" (and maybe some other similar phrases which would be grouped under a separate sub section) to all of the phrasebooks. What do you think ? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 16:53, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

I've seen things like that in Lonely Planet and other travel guidebooks. I think this is a great idea and I'm surprised we're not doing it already. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:21, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
Silly question: To what end? Seems like something one would only say to an intimate, which would only be possible if there was a language connection already. Powers (talk) 18:59, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
Here's an example of how these types of phrases would be useful to a lot of people... if for example an Australian/American/British girl has a French boyfriend, she might want to surprise him by saying "I love you" in French, even though they both communicate quite well in English. These days there are a lot of couples from different countries and cultures, and I could only assume many of them are looking for this type of information for these reasons.
AndreCarrotflower, what phrases of this type do you recall that were written in the professional phrasebooks? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 22:56, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
Quite a few guide books try and be 'edgy' with phrases such as 'I really like your <insert piece of anatomy here>', and I would urge that our phrasebooks don't go in that direction. The content should be genuinely useful, and I'm with Powers in asking if this is actually useful. Remember that people have to be able to print this out and filling it up with non-relevant phrases is not serving anyone well.
The scenario of a French boyfriend is not particularly compelling. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:01, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
I can see what you are trying to say here... basically you are saying that unless we turn such a sub-section into a sleazy pick-up guide for travelers whom are interested in advancing on foreigners whom don't speak English... such a section would never be useful for English travelers abroad (because, in your opinion, any sort of a long time serious foreign girlfriend/boyfriend scenario would be unrelated to traveling/travelers). Although I understand what you are saying, I still think we should consider adding the "I love you" phrase at the very least. What do everyone else think? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 01:23, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I don't particularly object to 'I love you'. Just the direction subsequent additions could go in. Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:45, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
"I love you" is fine if that's a phrase that is used locally. I'm not sure it's essential to include, but it usually wouldn't hurt. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:14, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
I also have to ask: How is this relevant for travel? Once you are able to say or convey this to someone else, you usually have some deal of fluency in any language or form of communication that you both understand. Though I have in fact once read a book that involved a guy proposing to a woman with the aid of a dictionary - she accepted. That being said, there is also the not too small problem of cultural background. "I love you" may be a simple sentence on the face of it, but different cultures may have different ways of approaching it. From saying it rather casually to not saying it after twenty years of marriage. And of course all things in between. And than there are those languages that have two similar but not equal ways of saying this. Such as Spanish "te quiero" and "te amo". While traveling is of course an activity during which love can hit (and indeed, which activity isn't?) I think our phrasebooks would be better served by not bloating them with a discussion on the intricacies of dating in Taiwan (I hope the previous is and stays a redlink) or the likes. Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:56, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
We might be overthinking things. If someone wants to add a particular phrase to an individual phrasebook, go ahead and do so. If it ends up being something of questionable value ("my hovercraft is full of eels") it can always be reverted later, but there is no harm in having the translation for "I love you" in a specific phrasebook. In terms of our default list of phrases to translate, that list should be constrained to phrases of immediate use to travelers, so things like "I love you" or "I want to use my advanced language skills to teach students in my own country to speak your language" might not be appropriate. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:25, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
I don't have an opinion about "I love you", but I think that an expression of (dis)approval would be more immediately useful: "I (don't) like it/you/him/her" rather than "I love you". This is useful regardless of whether one is speaking of a person, the food in a restaurant, the view from the hotel room, etc., and more general than "It was delicious" (the most relevant current phrase). WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:27, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
We didn't have a phrase as simple as "I (don't) like it?" - that surprises me quite a bit. I petition for its inclusion! Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:46, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
Well, I might be wrong, but I looked through the Spanish and German ones, and I didn't see anything like it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:18, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
I looked through Wikivoyage:Phrasebook article template, and I can't decide where to put this. Is it "basic"? Maybe under Lodging (I like the room), Eating (I like the food), Shopping (I like the things you sell)? WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:15, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


There's anyone that know any Japanese speakers to develop (i.e. to take it out from the incubator) the Japanese version of Wikivoyage? WT has a lot of access from Japan because of our absence, so it would be great to cover that area too. --Andyrom75 (talk) 21:18, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Definitely would be great but I haven't noticed many Japanese natives active here. Perhaps User:JRHorse ? Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
I have limited knowledge of Japanese (4 years of study... can carry on a casual conversation, read stuff with enough time, and write simple stuff [probably poorly]). Not sure how much time I'd be able to put into it, since it takes me a lot more time to read/write anything, but I can certainly contribute at least some. --Bigpeteb (talk) 14:54, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
Japanese WT is still actively edited. I believe Shoestring is the most active editor and admin there. When we forked, Japanese WT simply wasn't interested and they stayed put. Trying to start a new Wikivoyage afresh will be a difficult feat with a still active community over there. James Atalk 15:04, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
Out of interest, what other language communities stayed behind on WT? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 05:58, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
ja was the only notable one that I can remember. I think we forked all other language versions regardless of the community, except if there was really little content, but didn't end up forking ja's content. Although I may be mistaken. James Atalk 12:11, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
I haven't checked the existence of other languages, I've just noticed that Japan is a great source of web access for WT. I think that the first step would be to take out ja:voy from the incubator and someone that can speak/read japanese would be very helpful (although not native), then we can invite people from ja:w and maybe ask again to the WT users that are still there. Any volunteers? --Andyrom75 (talk) 11:20, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
I speak/read Japanese. Recently I am quite busy developing for Wikimedia Commons so I won't have much time for wikignoming, but I could do communication things. Syced (talk) 07:11, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Syced, maybe you could try to recruit someone from the Japanese Wikipedia community. You could guide them to "rescue" ja:voy :-) --Andyrom75 (talk) 08:04, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
I don't think this kind of solicitation would be allowed on WT. What we can do is set up a page here explaining (in Japanese) what WT and WV are, why WV has more to offer, and saying that anyone interested in creating a Japanese-language WV should put their signature at the end of that page. When we have enough motivated people we can fork and let them know. Syced (talk) 04:16, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
Actually this page exists and it is not bad: Syced (talk) 07:16, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Syced, I was saying to insert such promo on Wikipedia, and not on WT, in order to try to pull some user from there to the incubator. --Andyrom75 (talk) 15:41, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Ah indeed sorry, good idea :-) Syced (talk) 07:04, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

The ToC looks weird on some articles[edit]

Earlier today I noticed there was something wrong with the table of contents in an article, instead of the headings, the ToC read just "1". It was very confusing, firstly there was nothing odd with the pagebanner tag in that article, secondly I couldn't find any other "funny" things in the page's wikicode, and thirdly: as I saw the problem on just this one article I was sure it was something local.

However now I've run into two other articles with the same issue; Aracati and Mossoró. But, on the other hand, I've looked at many other articles today, which have entirely normally looking and working ToCs. What is wrong?

Ps. are there any plans to return the map icon back above the banner? ϒpsilon (talk) 17:34, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Save the page without an edit appears to fix the problem. Question is how do we find such pages? --Traveler100 (talk) 17:58, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
Yup, that seems to return the ToC to normal. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:22, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
Still I've no idea what causes this in the first place. I just, for example, fixed Washington (North Carolina). The only thing these articles have in common is that they are of comparatively small places and therefore probably not edited very frequently. Would be great if someone with technical knowledge would notice this thread. ϒpsilon (talk) 08:54, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
@Jdlrobson, @Sumit? --Alexander (talk) 20:01, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

And now another ToC problem[edit]

On some articles, even though have banner they are showing the table of content in the article. Example Middle Rhine Valley. --Traveler100 (talk) 19:41, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

I removed the 'unesco=yes' property from Middle_Rhine_Valley and the TOC works again in preview mode. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 20:06, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Again a save without edit fixed the problem. Should we maybe do a minor edit to the pagebanner template to force a re-save or all pages? --Traveler100 (talk) 06:02, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Not sure.. it may be possible that these banners are using code before the banner extension went live (e.g. the original templates) but I'm not 100% sure. Next time someone encounters this could they copy and paste the HTML of the banner and share it? Note appending `action=purge` to the query string should also have the same result... Jdlrobson (talk) 23:25, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Just saw the issue on Florissant Fossil Beds National Monument while editing - when I saved the article everything cleared up. Here's the banner HTML prior to saving (note the "1" for the TOC content):
<div class="ext-wpb-pagebanner noprint pre-content">
        <div class="wpb-topbanner">
                <h1 class="wpb-name">Florissant Fossil Beds National Monument</h1>
                <a class="image" title="Florissant Fossil Beds National Monument" href="/wiki/File:Florissant_Fossil_Beds_banner.jpg"><img src="" srcset=" 640w, 1280w, 2560w" class="wpb-banner-image " data-pos-x="0" data-pos-y="0" style="max-width:8118px"></a>
        <div class="wpb-topbanner-toc "><div class="wpb-banner-toc">1</div></div>
-- Ryan • (talk) • 20:56, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Tracked in phabricator:T115719. I'm still not sure what's happening here but given this is in the HTML itself the only way to fix this is to purge offending pages. We may need to write a script to search for pages with this problem. I'm trying to work out what's causing this. Jdlrobson (talk) 16:06, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
For anyone following this thread, per the phabricator ticket, a potential fix is scheduled for release on Wednesday. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:57, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
I've stumbled upon this "1" problem in almost ten articles since yesterday. Any ideas? ϒpsilon (talk) 13:37, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
Practically every article I go to today has this problem. Nurg (talk) 09:41, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
Per phabricator:T115719 any banners showing the problem are theorized to be cached banners that updated improperly when the fixed extension was deployed yesterday. I've made a minor edit to Template:Pagebanner that should force the cache to reload for all articles, but if anyone has edited a page since midnight last night and sees a "1" for the TOC in the future for that article that would disprove the caching theory. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:30, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
I believe that's not quite absolute proof. As I understand it, some large corporate networks and ISPs keep their own caches, which are not always updated in a timely fashion. But that's not likely to be seen by a logged-in user. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:41, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Offline Android app updated[edit]

With up-to-date Wikivoyage data: Google Play

Enjoy! Syced (talk) 09:23, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Nice. How often do updates usually occur? Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:59, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Every two months if all goes well. I wonder if it is too spammy to post such a note each time? Syced (talk) 03:24, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
I am happy to get reminded, so not too spamy I'd say. Danapit (talk) 12:24, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Auto-generated climate data[edit]

Creating a {{climate}} table takes a while and is error-prone since so many different fields need to be filled out, so I've created an automated tool that will generate a climate table by pulling temperature and precipitation data from the NOAA climate normals dataset (1981-2010) (sorry, US destinations only). It can be accessed at I've used it to generate several climate tables without issue (see Culver City#Climate, Yellowstone#Climate, Everglades#Climate, etc) and found it to be useful, but would appreciate feedback - bugs, improvement suggestions, and comments as to whether or not this is useful for others. -- Ryan • (talk) • 17:03, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

I have heard somewhere that at least for Germany the climate normal period was from some time in the 1960s or something. Given long term climate trends, this might indeed make a difference... Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:02, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
I'm not a climate scientist so I can't speak to what the "best" dataset might be, but NOAA uses 30 year intervals to generate their averages, and updates those datasets every decade. Wikipedia is also pulling their climate information from NOAA, although in many cases using the previous 30 year interval (1971-2000), so this dataset seems like an acceptable source. -- Ryan • (talk) • 20:07, 13 October 2015 (UTC)


Are there any plans to introduce proper currency handling? I'm thinking about something like {{price 23 EUR}}, which could be rendered properly marked up to allow some javascript to do automatic conversions to user selectable currencies: <span class="price">23 <span class="currency" data-currency="EUR">€</span></span>. Jlg23 (talk)

Automated currency conversion was discussed previously at Wikivoyage talk:Currency#Do we detail currency conversions against the US dollar?. My sense of things is that while it would be a nice-to-have feature, it introduces readability/complexity issues for those updating prices on the site, and it's not something that appears to be high on anyone's priority list. That said, if someone wanted to develop a proposal for rolling out such a feature, it wouldn't hurt to have more details of an actual implementation to discuss. -- Ryan • (talk) • 22:27, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Well, the above is my proposal: Enter prices in currency local to the destination and have some unobtrusive javascript do the conversion on the client side if requested by the user. A quick search shows that there are various free feeds of exchange rates available and the javascript itself is trivial. From a user's perspective, this would be very helpful, since on a lot of pages people don't clearly mark which currency they refer to, sometimes even mixing dollar and local currencies on one page, and one has to guess (e.g. "a budget hotel in Argentina for $450/night? must be in ARS; the next listing for $50/night again must be in USD"). I'm willing to make this my priority and will hack some code tonight as a PoC. Jlg23 (talk)
Having a bot update currency tables on a daily basis and writing Javascript to do the conversions is fairly simple (as you've noted), and a POC would be helpful. However, the harder part would be figuring out whether to update prices in existing articles, how to do so, how to update articles going forward, and how to ensure that the implementation isn't confusing for most users. -- Ryan • (talk) • 14:18, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
I uploaded the PoC to one of my servers. Link and notes at User:Jlg23. Jlg23 (talk)
If and when this is implemented there should be an option to set a certain currency as one's preferred one in account settings and/or the offline app. Furthermore spurious significant figures in the converted amounts should be avoided, especially if the number given is an estimate (e.g. "A Döner costs around 3€"). Furthermore, it should be noted that in some countries (Nicaragua for one) there are sort of two parallel currencies. Some prices are more or less stable in Dollars (like most Hotels) whereas other prices are more or less stable in local currency (like bus tickets) and only make "jumps" rather infrequently (in 2012 there was a raise in bus prices that at the time had been the first since 2008). Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:25, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Guessing the editor's intention is not possible. Though one could have a default /view currency/ "as provided by editors" which just displays the values originally entered. I am trying to keep this as simple as possible to solve a problem that annoyed me in the last year permanently. I have been traveling from Dominican Republic to Curacao, Colombia, Peru, Bolivia, Paraguay, Argentina and am now on my way to Uruguay - juggling with local currencies, my own (EUR) and USD when it sometimes is not even obvious from an article which is meant is just serious mindf*ck. I'd rather pay "around US$3.27" for a Döner than compare prices for travel options in 3 different currencies ;) Jlg23 (talk)
USD is indeed the currency used for more expensive stuff in much of Latin America, I think much Africa, and in some extent even Russia. ϒpsilon (talk) 16:58, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
I am not a fan of introducing more templates into our markup. Powers (talk) 01:24, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
I agree with LtPowers. But we should make sure the rules are respected, maybe with a detection script feeding suspects to human checkers. Once most prices follow the rules, automatic conversion will be technically feasible. Prices embedded in prose (example: 3$ for adults and 1$ for kids) are parsable as well. Syced (talk) 07:23, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Then these rules should be extended. There are several places in the world where one can pay in various currencies. E.g. Ciudad del Este, in Paraguay: USD, Guarani, Argentinian Peso and Brazilian Real. Or in the triangle Tabatinga (BR), Leticia (CO) and Santa Rosa (PE) all three currencies can be used in most places (though rarely USD). People tend to mix these freely in articles, not breaking any of the rules by doing so. Jlg23 (talk)
I think that it is important that the original currency is retained with any conversion appearing alongside. This will help the reader to become familiar with the currency that they will be using when they arrive, and will make errors easier to spot. Also we may need to clarify all the different dollars that are used (US$, AU$, CAN$, HK$, NZ$ etc), to avoid confusing statements like "A hostel in Auckland costs $25 ($20) per night". AlasdairW (talk) 22:18, 15 October 2015 (UTC)


Given that there are some concerns about adding a lot of template syntax to existing prices, would it possibly be a good compromise solution to start out with a shared table of currency conversions that could eventually be added to the "Buy" section of country articles (example: CHF 1.00 = USD 1.05, EUR 0.92, GBP 0.68...)? This might be a useful POC for proving out a bot to keep currency tables up-to-date, the code to (potentially) show conversions in a preferred currency, and it could be done without introducing much new template code on the site. Does that seem reasonable to people? And if so, Jlg23, would that begin to address your concerns? -- Ryan • (talk) • 22:46, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

That seems like an excellent idea. It should be clear in the template that the rates are updated daily and it should probably be able to accommodate two 'source' currencies simultaneously. Powers (talk) 01:58, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
I guess I am grateful for anything that goes beyond waiting for editors to follow some rules that are neither enforced nor adequately phrased before doing anything that makes the life of readers easier. My approach to work on the markup itself does not even require a template, if parsing is preferred, as indicated above, this could also be done today. This might even make editors see the value of following the rules.... Jlg23 (talk)
I like that idea. Especially given that some articles (like Chile) already have (outdated) currency conversions in their buy section... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:14, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Page invisible[edit]

Seems like Yakutia went invisible. And now this page... database error? /Yvwv (talk) 18:05, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Visible now? /Yvwv (talk) 18:15, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for reporting this. This is currently being handled and the corresponding bug report is phab:T115505. As more information on the reasons becomes available that bug report will receive updates. Purging the page should help. Sorry for the inconvenience! --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 18:30, 14 October 2015 (UTC)


On some pages like Retiring abroad and Xiamen I am currently seeing the old-type TOC (left side of 2nd text section) while the bottom of the banner has only a white 1 where TOC should start. Other pages are fine. I'm using Firefox on Lubuntu Linux, both recent versions, if that matters. Pashley (talk) 22:49, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

See #And now another ToC problem. -- Ryan • (talk) • 23:03, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. That confused me more :-)
Both those banners had |caption= labels at is the end, which is silly since captions don't display on banners. Removing those solved my problem, but I suspect there is still a bug that developers might hunt for. Probably low priority, though. Pashley (talk) 23:13, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Grand Trunk Road shows the problem and its banner tag contains only the image name, nothing removable. Pashley (talk) 00:38, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
The captions for banners display on mouse-over, so they are not necessarily silly. Not all banners need them, but for banners that show something interesting that the reader might want to know a little about, they are valuable. Those two both had other additional parameters for the banners, so I wonder whether it was something about the order of the parameters, rather than the existence of a caption parameter per se. Nurg (talk) 06:32, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
Grand Trunk Road is now OK, but Jar has the problem. I looked at about a dozen random pages & all the others were OK. Pashley (talk) 20:20, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes I am seeing this on a number of pages. --Traveler100 (talk) 20:52, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Tried > 20 random pages, found only Restonica Valley with the problem Pashley (talk) 21:08, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
I have stumbled upon a couple of those. They can be simply fixed by starting the editor and saving without changes. But this is not a systematic solution, is it? --Danapit (talk) 21:24, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
For Grand Trunk Road; the problem went away after User:Danapit did some edits, but has now reappeared. Coincidence? Or is there some logical reason I cannot see? Pashley (talk) 12:54, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
Labuhan Lombok and Amazônia National Park show the problem; it seems to turn up in about 1 of every 12 or so random pages. Pashley (talk) 13:01, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
This is an odd error and I think occurring too often. Although I really like the new drop-down menu in the banner should we consider returning to the old method until the problem is identified and fixed? --Traveler100 (talk) 12:08, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
Did notice that happened to one of the pages I was going to work on - wasn't sure if it was widespread or not - thanks for the heads up! - "?action=purge" took care of that page for me - should probably be looked into -- Matroc (talk) 15:45, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
There are currently two threads referencing this same issue. The other thread (link is in the second comment in this thread) has a pointer to the phabricator ticket where status can be tracked. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:02, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Switching banner does not work[edit]

A banner in Wikivoyage:Banner Expedition does not show. It must be something to do with the switching function... Any chance of fixing it? Thanks. Danapit (talk) 17:21, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Pick one banner and stick with it. =) Powers (talk) 18:53, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
re: Danapit - the switching function is fine, it appears that the new banner extension suppresses banners in the project namespace. Perhaps someone else could confirm and request an update to the extension? -- Ryan • (talk) • 19:16, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Right... Might Jdlrobson be able to help? Danapit (talk) 21:00, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
I did a minor modification of the pagebanner template, which theoretically should have forced a re-save of all pages, Did however not solve the problem. --Traveler100 (talk) 21:39, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
The pagebanner extension is activated in the main namespace only. One has to request its usage in other namespaces. We had the same problem in ru. --Alexander (talk) 21:47, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
I can get it enabled in project namespaces or all namespaces. Which would you prefer? Maybe the latter is a better default?

Tracked in Jdlrobson (talk) 07:13, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

All right, is there a reason for NOT allowing outside of main namespace? Until the change of the template it was possible to use page banners at Wikivoyage:Banner Expedition. Can we keep that? Danapit (talk) 14:52, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Wiki Loves Earth: Congrats Pakistan[edit]

I just read in the news that the Wiki Loves Earth winners have been announced:

Many great pictures that might be appropriate to illustrate the relevant Wikivoyage articles :-) Syced (talk) 12:57, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Searching for images in Commons by geographical position[edit]

I know this would be a more appropriate question towards Wikimedia Commons community, but I guess many of us are to certain degree involved in both projects. Is there a way to search for images in Commons by their location? Either by coordinates, or ideally in a map interface? Some of the images are geotagged, so technically, this should be possible. Danapit (talk) 21:00, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Images which have lat/longs can be shown on a map in commons. As an example look at: commons:File:Dumbarton Municipal Buildings.JPG. In the Summary box go to the camera location line, and click on the link in "View this and other nearby images on: OpenStreetMap". This will open an OpenStreetMap page with the selected image shown as a cross on a red square and other images with a mile or so shown by the commons symbol (hover over these to see a thumbnail). If you zoom in, you can see other pictures of the same building. AlasdairW (talk) 23:11, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
Just FYI, Flickr has a map search function. (Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a way to filter for CC images) --Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:37, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
Oh, great! Thanks a lot. Just now I found another tool, but I like the OpenStreetMap very much. Danapit (talk) 23:46, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
Are you looking for a web application or an API? See and Syced (talk) 05:04, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
The problem with WikiMiniAtlas (WMA) is that it is very difficult to find the place you want, because there is no search, no way to enter a latitude/longitude, and city names are not displayed. —The preceding comment was added by Syced (talkcontribs)
I am looking for a web application, which would help me searching for available source images for page banners or images illustrating WV artciles. This particularly useful when I need one for a region, rather than a city. I usually do this on a PC with high speed internet connection, so the data volume is not a problem. I find that what AlasdairW suggested is a neat solution for what I need. There are not tons of geocoded pictures, but then I can continue searching in commons geographical categories where those found pictures are.
I also tried the geocommons.kml file from GeoCommons and opened it with Google Earth. It is equally useful. Do you know how frequently are these files updated? Danapit (talk) 11:11, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
I the past I have used FIST, select article or category at the top and note at the bottom to list all articles or that without images. Just attempted to use it and it appears to hang. --Traveler100 (talk) 12:22, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
FIST seems to work now again. Maybe just some hic·cup before. I must admit I have to experiment with this one a bit to make it work for me... Danapit (talk) 20:40, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Forillon National Park[edit]

Over the past few weeks I've dug back into my intermittent work bringing Gaspé Peninsula up to Guide status, and Forillon is the latest article that I've brought up to snuff. As is the usual routine when this happens, if someone who is a native speaker of Canadian English (perhaps K7L or Pashley?) could check it over to make sure the article is metricated and all the "u"'s and "re"'s are how they should be, that would be great. Also, perhaps more importantly, this is my first foray into writing a park article for Wikivoyage, so also I'd appreciate if someone who is better versed in that type of article could let me know if I followed the format correctly. Thank you! -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 14:17, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

I had a quick scan & saw no obvious problems. Nice work. Pashley (talk) 13:17, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Incredibly inane article - apparently this passes for travel "journalism" these days[edit]

I know this might not be the right place for this, but when I first saw this article earlier today, I honestly asked myself how little work went into this sad excuse for travel writing. I mean - come on - First of all, there are many airports with faster rail connections, Second of all, there are many airports with cheaper rail connections. And also: What makes those five special? And to think that this type of "travel writing" probably gets more clicks than some of our articles do... /rant Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:46, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

This type of travel writing definitely gets more clicks than most of our articles. Those five airports would have been chosen either because of the limited travel experience of the writer or because there's a conflict of interest and touting going on. Gizza (t)(c) 21:41, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
As far as I can see, nearly all "listicles" — arbitrary lists posing as articles — are rubbish, almost invariably without any discussion and often without even a good list. This one lacks London Heathrow & both Shanghai airports which have subways right to the airport, Amsterdam with excellent trains, likely others. The listicle does seem to be effective as clickbait, though. Pashley (talk) 23:51, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Good that we have the luxury of not needing clicks to justify content :) --Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:31, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
This kind of articles are like cat videos on YouTube, more for entertainment and killing time than for anything else. ϒpsilon (talk) 08:50, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
I knew Wikipedia had "made it" when people started commenting on article like these "A look into Wikipedia gave me more and more accurate information then this". Let's hope we one day achieve this for travel content ;-) Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:44, 24 October 2015 (UTC)


Where to list Maiasmokk in the article Tallinn at? It's a café and a confectionery shop. The article Tallinn only lists famous sights, stores, restaurants, bars, nightclubs, and hotels. I don't Maiasmokk falls into any of these categories. JIP (talk) 19:54, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Wycsi. Cafés are listed in either Drink (if there's a separate Café section, which Tallinn does not have and it's unnecessary to make a heading for just one place) or Eat. While I don't know this establishment, I would probably list it in Eat (likely under Budget, as it's a café?). On the other hand if it is more of a shop than a café, list the place in Buy. ϒpsilon (talk) 20:11, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. I've added it to Eat/Budget. JIP (talk) 19:24, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikivoyage stickers[edit]

Wondering if it is time to do a bit of publicizing this site in the physical world. Having spend a lot of time dragging my travel bag around airports and watching luggage go round carousels I was thinking it would be a good idea to have stickers with the Wikivoyage logo on my luggage. May encourage people to look up the address. Thoughts? Also if we do something like this, does anyone know a web site where we can set up the printing and ordering of low individual volumes so that no one here has to bulk buy then spend there time taking and mailing orders? --Traveler100 (talk) 07:59, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Store has a set of stickers of WMF projects which includes Wikivoyage - $5 per set, but these are small with just the logo. If there is a lot of interest in luggage labels maybe the Wikipedia Store could be persuaded to offer something different. AlasdairW (talk) 12:55, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
I'd think Wikivoyage stickers would be a tremendous idea... Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:38, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, with a QR code :) Danapit (talk) 16:54, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
Luggage tags with banners on them and WV's logo in one corner! :D ϒpsilon (talk) 17:09, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
We might even get a gift store to finance the project.... In all seriousness though, stickers would be a great (and unobtrusive) way of spreading knowledge of our page and attracting readers/contributors... We could also advice business owners to put said sticker in the window... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:23, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia QR Code
Just to expand on Danapit's suggestion, the town of Monmouth uses both Wikipedia and QR codes quite heavily. It would be good to add an extra 'Tool' to the sidebar that allowed generation of a Wivivoyage logo and QR code for a specific article that would be appropriate for a sticker, poster or anything else. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 20:27, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
QRvoyage... :) Danapit (talk) 21:08, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
Sounds like a good idea to me... Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:55, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
Seems to me to be a nice idea: (Bumper sticker anyone?) Matroc (talk) 09:02, 26 October 2015 (UTC)



So something like this ?

--Traveler100 (talk) 22:37, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

That looks good and would work well for a luggage sticker, although I was hoping for something more article specific. i.e. A QR code for the Paris article --Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:08, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
Sounds interesting. I would suggest you guys to file a grant request which can cover the cost of stickers etc. I'm very much sure it will be approved. This way, we can also cover the postage charges in the grant so that all interested Wikivoyagers will be able to get their stuff. --Saqib (talk) 12:59, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
SO I added a request for cost details on MetaWiki which I guess needs to be done before we can apply for a grant but have had not reply yet. --Traveler100 (talk) 05:21, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Wishes and thoughts about WV[edit]

Hi. How are you? Roland is going to meet a guy from the community team of the WMF tomorrow or the day after to talk about the future of WV and checking out opportunities to support WV in a better way. I am aware, its short term planned, because the guy will happen to be in Berlin these days. Does the English community have some ideas/wishes (e.g. map/mobile/offline features)? -- DerFussi 11:44, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, the conversation right above this one could be mentioned, perhaps ;-) I think in general visibility remains a concern, so it would probably be good to have some exchange of thoughts about if and how WMF has ideas/know-how with regard to improving our ranking. JuliasTravels (talk) 14:07, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
Yep. Solving the Google ranking issue will help with all of the other problems. We need visibility and traffic. The stickers and QR codes mentioned above are a great idea but may require WMF support. Powers (talk) 14:52, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
If there should be an example of projects named, for which we might use some developers' support, I think generated user maps would be a really cool feature to introduce to attract more users. Danapit (talk) 16:14, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
Also some language varieties (most notably the Spanish one) are much smaller than the number of speakers might indicate... What are the reasons for that? Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:49, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
Some weeks ago, the WMF product team focused their interest on Wikivoyage, and they want to become more familiar with this project. The WMF team (Wes Moran -- Vice President of Product; Dan Garry -- Map services product manager) proposed to speak about inter-wiki visibility, maps and search. I think that we will also discuss the main urgent issues in this respect. --RolandUnger (talk) 06:57, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
This is great to hear! I agree that our number one issue is readership. By increasing readership, the wiki can increase the userbase which consequently leads to better content and more features. I think our wiki has amazing potential to be more than simply a website. It needs to be a brand that people think of when they think travel. Think of other amazing web-based, non-profit projects which have boomed: Wikipedia, Khan Academy, Duolingo, etc. Instead of people searching Google for "Paris travel guide" and then clicking on Wikivoyage, I long for the day when people go to and search for Paris. Of course, baby steps, but I think if we can build the appropriate framework, then the appropriate branding, our site can go very far indeed. James Atalk 08:42, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
Definitely, we need support of the WMF to increase the visibility of Wikivoyage. Albeit having improvement in our content, our Alexa ranking is getting worse and worse as each day goes by. --Saqib (talk) 13:07, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
Feedback/summary of the meeting? --Traveler100 (talk) 05:22, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Commons photos[edit]

Hi, everyone. I don't know how many of you follow the Picture of the Day or the latest additions to Valued images on Commons, but I want to mention some countries that have more or less outstanding coverage of great (Featured, Quality and Valued) photographs, in many cases of places that lack any article:

First, there's Estonia. Today's Pic of the day is once again of an Estonian nature reserve. Estonia seems to have the largest volume of extraordinary Featured pictures of any country, or at least a very outsized number for a country of its small size and population. If any of you are stimulated to write more articles about Estonia's parks and nature reserves, or at least to add listings of them in the most relevant articles, there is an amazing wealth of images for you to choose from for illustrations.

Second, there's been a great project, primarily by Commons user, Jacek Halicki, to document seemingly every point of interest in every city, village and rural area of Poland. Most of the places he's documented have either no Wikivoyage article or an insufficiently detailed one. In particular, Klodzko seems to be a great place to visit, but at least we have an article for that city, whereas many of the spa towns in Silesia (ending with the word Zdroj), for example, have no article at all.

Third, there's loads of coverage of France on Commons, including quite a few small towns that might not merit a Wikivoyage article. Be that as it may, any town or area you want to write about is almost guaranteed to have some excellent coverage.

Fourth, Germany is covered pretty extensively on this guide, but there's no article for Dülmen, which seems to be full of beauty, including 16 - count 'em, 16! - Featured pictures.

Austria also has excellent coverage on Commons.

I don't see how we'll be able to use the attempts to comprehensively document cities like Toulouse and Venice, as there will never be room or call for so many images in our articles, but I haven't been able to resist adding a few of the very best images. The Toulouse article probably couldn't stand to have any more images, but the Venice article, while by no means requiring any more images, might be able to take more, if more listings are added, and I do think there are more churches and palazzi that could have listings added if anyone wants to do that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:24, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Link: c:Commons:Picture of the day Andrewssi2 (talk) 00:44, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
Few people know that each listing can have its own picture. That easily quadruples the number of images needed on Wikivoyage. Each museum, each monument, should have its picture in a "image=" tag. Images are then used dynamic maps and other data mashups. Syced (talk) 09:35, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
Indeed. While the only use I can see right now for the "image=" tag is within dynamic maps, it opens up all sorts of opportunities for future development and features, such as within a changed listing format, mobile apps, Wikidata, etc. James Atalk 11:45, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

VisualEditor News #5—2015[edit]

Elitre (WMF), 18:17, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Idea: sub-categories for (certain) listings[edit]

I have recently taken a dead trees travel guide to hand and found that in its equivalent of "eat" listings, the type of food the establishment in question is focused on was mentioned in brackets right after the name... How about we enable such a category or the likes for our listings? e.g. "Eat" subtype: Mexican food or "sleep" subtype: Hostel. Is this a patently absurd idea, is it technologically impossible or what do you think? Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:13, 31 October 2015 (UTC) 

Sub-heading are certainly allowed, the standard ones being 'Budget', 'Mid-range' and 'Splurge' as per the article template. However, depending on the situation, I think a little creative license is allowed. I've sometimes divided See listings into 'Museums', 'Parks and nature', 'Built attractions', etc. And Eat can easily be divided by cuisine, but you should be careful that you limit sub-headings to only 3-4. I think Melbourne#Eat has got a little out of hand... James Atalk 09:02, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
For some regions such subdivisions may be good, but e.g. in Finland it is more or less useless: finding your choice of fast food (under Budget or just looking around in the town centre) is easy and any proper restaurant will be able to serve you beef, salmon and some vegetarian dish. Then we have good ethnic restaurants and restaurant specializing in some type of food (many do, of course), but there will seldom be many enough of any specific type for a subheading or even a keyword to make sense (one exception being Helsinki, where Finnish, Russian and "international" food are treated separately). Choice of restaurant would usually depend on other factors as well, and having keywords for even the most common ones easily becomes absurd. --LPfi (talk) 11:01, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Subdividing by subject rather than price was actually not what I had in mind... I thought more along the lines of putting some sort of qualifier into the template for the listing itself (e.g. "sub-type" after "alt" or something...) We could maybe allow users to filter for their preferred food choice then... Maybe even make the listings of a certain city searchable by type rather than by district... But the latter is probably too complicated... Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:54, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
The idea has merit, but there is some complexity involved in categorizing eating establishments (and retailers) that can't easily be captured by a simple single-subtype system. Powers (talk) 20:17, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Interesting idea! Adding a new 'sub-type' parameter to the listing templates would be easy enough. The challenge arises when how to categorise or sort that information on the article page. Our articles are static, so there'd be no way to sort listings by sub-type, or highlight the Mexican listings, etc. Maybe it's something for a future Individual Engagement Grant (IEG). James Atalk 23:44, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Where you can stick it: Subway stations, bus terminals[edit]

In reference to Talk:Ansan#Metro_listing, pinging User:Andrewssi2 and copying the discussion here, as I believe this is a topic of interest to the entire community:

I saw that User:Pkh409 has started to add metro stations as listings. Can anyone verify this is not how we use listings on Wikivoyage?

I do sometimes add one or two listings for an important train station for entering a new area, but every metro station (10+?) would be very excessive in my opinion. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:31, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, that's an interesting point. What is best practice here? Personally, I think important transport hubs should have GPS entries on the map. While listing individual bus stations may be too much, I'd support listing all train and subway stations, as well as bus terminals. Through to avoid the map clutter, is there a way to trigger layers? Could some entries be coded as transport and be switchable on and off? PS. I looked at Wikivoyage:Where you can stick it, and noticed that it seems to suggest train stations and ferry terminals are valid POIs. It's unclear on subways, and doesn't say anything about buses or bus terminals (perhaps this question should be copied to the traveller's pub?). --Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 02:45, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
I believe there are people working on a new map control with transport POI's layer. It is very hard to read, but you will find some details in Wikivoyage:Travellers'_pub#Announcing_the_launch_of_Maps --Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:28, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

So, what do people think about inclusion of major public transportation POIs? Do it, not to do it? And if do, how? --Piotrus (talk) 01:34, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm having trouble imagining it for cities with hundreds of stations like New York City, London or Paris. However, I haven't made my mind up on what my opinion is, so I'll leave others to comment for now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:55, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
It really depends from case to case. I'd say in most situations, metro stations should never be listed as POIs. A major regional train station, or the airport, or the only ferry terminal to get to an island, etc? List them. Ideally, they'd be listed using a "Go" template but the discussion seemed to have died off. James Atalk 08:59, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Major stations that can be reached from outside the region should be put in the Get In section, but for inside the city a link to the local transport companies' website in the Get Around section with possibility a link to the page that shows a stations and lines map. Best to look at the topic the other way around. In the listings for major attractions state in the directions field the name of the closest local rail/tram station. --Traveler100 (talk) 14:41, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Major places for getting into destinations themselves (airports, harbors, large bus terminals and railway stations) are absolutely OK to mark on a map. Usually there are one or a few really important ones of each kind. But a city can have hundreds of much less important stops which would probably just clutter up the map and should therefore not be marked.
For this purpose, I personally use markers — these are a smaller and more versatile version of listings. In a marker you can give the type parameter the value "go" to have it marked as a suitcase on the map. Example (the map is further down on that page).ϒpsilon (talk) 15:19, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
I wasn't thinking in terms of hundreds of POI places (since we are editing a mid-size city with ~10 transport POIs, all well spaced), but I see your point. That said, I fondly remember the old Wikipediua layer in Google maps, which did have worse (one color, see [1]) POI system on their map - and it was still very useful. As a tourist myself I used it for both sightseeing and finding the near transport POIs, and deeply regret its deactivation by Google. The best solution would be to figure out how to toggle layers on and off (who's working on that, btw? Any links or pings?) For now, I think it's a question of zooming, and the maps I see seem to be doing ok with that (with the orange plus sign), not to mention that many of those "hundreds of stations" are outside the primary zoom (downtown, historical areas), so I don't think we are going to see even maps for NY or such overwhelmed by that. An alternate solution I could think of would be to have a special public transport subpage/map, ex. Stockholm/Public transport map, which would copy the Get in/Get around sections, and have additional GPS coordinates for the locations. But frankly, I'd first like to see whether a map would really be overwhelmed by the subway stations first, before making a call (for Ansan, I feel it would be just fine). Maybe we should do it on case by case basis? (Oh, and I would probably draw a line at bus stations, those are way too numerous usually... but again, case by case, country/city situations do vary). But do keep in mind that for tourist and travelers, information on public transport is really, really useful. At least, for me, it's one of the key things, and I'd really like to be able to use a Wikivoyage map not just to figure out sightseeing POI, but also how to use public transport to get to them (otherwise, we force the tourist to rely on external maps, and isn't the goal of Wikivoyage to be limit the need to rely on those other sites?). --Piotrus (talk) 01:50, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

I am editing article about Daebudo..[edit]

And I need some review about the article that I am making now. Please review and leave some comments about my article, Daebudo. Moreover, I would like to change the picture of the banner of Daebudo. If anyone knows how to change the banner picture, please let me know how to do so. Thank you!--Misokkkim (talk) 02:33, 2 November 2015 (UTC)Misokkkim

Hi Misokkkim, this is how to do banners: Wikivoyage:Banner_Expedition. If you don't feel like going into that by yourself, I am happy to offer help - that means crop (or otherwise edit) a picture (pictures) that you suggest, upload the new version to Commons and insert into the guide. Do you have any particular photo in mind that you believe would look good in 7:1 aspect ratio? I can do the task technically, but I don't know the place, so I would prefer you to give me an idea which photo will represent Daebudo well. Danapit (talk) 08:04, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
This destination is certainly off the beaten track. I could find only one potential image on Flickr and Commons and I made a banner and uploaded. It isn't very good, so if you find a better CC image then feel free to replace. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 21:39, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Nice article, makes me want to go there :-) Syced (talk) 09:26, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

The dynamic map has lost its buttons![edit]

Have a look at both at the embedded mapframes and the fullscreen dynamic maps in any article. I see just the maps, the POIs and the zoom level indicator. The buttons for zooming in/out, changing the map type etc. don't show up at all. ϒpsilon (talk) 09:50, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Hmmm, I can still see them. Any particular article? I assume your issue is linked to the addition of the Wikimedia layer recently. James Atalk 10:31, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Looks like this is a browser-specific problem. I tried to look at articles in Firefox and Opera now, and the buttons indeed haven't gone anywhere. But in Safari they don't show up . ϒpsilon (talk) 11:00, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
For me neither the buttons nor the map display in Firefox. Chrome is OK, though. Joachim, do you have an idea? --Alexander (talk) 18:18, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
This gets really odd, maybe it's also OS-specific somehow? I'm using Mac OS X Yosemite. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:35, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
I have seen it yesterday, too, after I added a mapframe to Slavonice article. I though it was a bit odd, but was too tired to report the problem. I am using Firefox. Today it is ok again. Danapit (talk) 19:49, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Mac OS 'El Capitan' : Firefox - works, Safari - Works, Chrome - Doesn't work --Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:12, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Map OK but no buttons for me, Firefox on Linux. Pashley (talk) 01:42, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
I'm not getting the buttons when I use Firefox on Mac OS Yosemite. It works fine on Safari though, as well as Windows 10 MS Edge. -Shaundd (talk) 04:51, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
Please close all WV-windows and then clean up the browser cache. That should help. -- Joachim Mey2008 (talk) 05:12, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
It works! Thanks! :) ϒpsilon (talk) 05:24, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


I tried to create a new banner for E6 through Sweden and Norway, but only the default banner appears. Dont see any errors in code. Please advise. --Erik den yngre (talk) 17:51, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

There were two {{pagebanner}} templates included on the page. I've removed the second, and your image is now showing. -- Ryan • (talk) • 18:13, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
Ah, thanks, did not see the second one! --Erik den yngre (talk) 18:35, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Please review my article, Daebudo[edit]

Daebudo is a beautiful island in Korea. I created Daebudo article, and try to develop the article better. Please give a review for me! —The preceding comment was added by Misokkkim (talkcontribs)

According to Wikivoyage:Currency, prices should be written as ₩900 rather "900won". Nurg (talk) 06:12, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
Nurg, I think all the prices are fine. Can you point out any errors?--Misokkkim (talk) 00:53, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
Misokkkim - see the listings for Ansan Fishing Village Folk Museum and Chungmunkyu Museum.
Also, please make sure that all opening hours follow the format in Wikivoyage:Time and date formats. This applies to most of the listings in the See and Art centers sections.
-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:03, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
Please add more restaurant and hotels, with latitude/longitude. Thanks! Syced (talk) 06:57, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Also please add some cafés, as "Drink" is empty. I am sure there are places to have a drink near the beach? Syced (talk) 08:52, 13 November 2015 (UTC)


Anyone knows why or how to fix that ? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 04:11, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

I purged the article and it seemed to fix it for me. Try navigating to this link. James Atalk 04:21, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
I see. Why did that happen? was the banner template changed recently, and the changes did not take effect yet in all non-purged articles ...? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 04:24, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Community Wishlist Survey[edit]

Hi everyone!

The Community Tech team at the Wikimedia Foundation is focused on building improved curation and moderation tools for experienced Wikimedia contributors. We're now starting a Community Wishlist Survey to find the most useful projects that we can work on.

For phase 1 of the survey, we're inviting all active contributors to submit brief proposals, explaining the project that you'd like us to work on, and why it's important. Phase 1 will last for 2 weeks. In phase 2, we'll ask you to vote on the proposals. Afterwards, we'll analyze the top 10 proposals and create a prioritized wishlist.

While most of this process will be conducted in English, we're inviting people from any Wikimedia wiki to submit proposals. We'll also invite volunteer translators to help translate proposals into English.

Your proposal should include: the problem that you want to solve, who would benefit, and a proposed solution, if you have one. You can submit your proposal on the Community Wishlist Survey page, using the entry field and the big blue button. We will be accepting proposals for 2 weeks, ending on November 23.

We're looking forward to hearing your ideas!

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:30, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

This survey is a big deal for this dev team. I strongly urge the Wikivoyages and other mid-size projects to get organized, post their proposals, and invest time in following this over the next few weeks. Actual WMF dev work on at least one of the proposed projects is basically guaranteed, and it might be your wishes that are granted.  :-) WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:19, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Wikimania 2016 scholarships ambassadors needed[edit]

Hello! Wikimania 2016 scholarships will soon be open; by the end of the week we'll form the committee and we need your help, see Scholarship committee for details.

If you want to carefully review nearly a thousand applications in January, you might be a perfect committee member. Otherwise, you can volunteer as "ambassador": you will observe all the committee activities, ensure that people from your language or project manage to apply for a scholarship, translate scholarship applications written in your language to English and so on. Ambassadors are allowed to ask for a scholarship, unlike committee members.

Wikimania 2016 scholarships subteam 10:47, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Wikimania will be in Europe next June, in Esino Lario near Italy's Lake Como. The Wikivoyage article is pretty extensive (and contradicts the rumor that's been going around, that "there are no hotels there!"), but needs a copyedit. We should make sure that the article is linked on Perhaps we should check for translations at other Wikivoyages, too? WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:22, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Map of all listings, one color per article[edit]

I created a map of listings, where all listings of a particular article have the same colour. This map allows me to find listings that are in the wrong article. It can also help when redefining article boundaries. For instance "National Theatre of Japan" is officially in Chiyoda but it made more sense geographically to include it in the Akasaka article.

It is only a prototype for now, but let me know if there is interest for such a system for the whole world. Cheers! Syced (talk) 06:40, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

This is awesome and has huge potential. Great idea Syced! Gizza (t)(c) 02:57, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

'Fantasy' activities for the traveller[edit]

Is there an article?

I define fantasy here as being able to undertake some kind of activity outside what you might consider normal for the average traveller.

This was partly inspired by last years joke article.

I did try asking in the tourist office to get some more information, but it got shunted off to the archives.

So does anyone think that there should be an article?

There's plenty of scope:

  • Conventional 'Experience' options (no squid):
    • Motorsport track day
    • Sailing
    • Tea at the Ritz
    • The "shoot"
    • Golf tuition

Less conventional ( 1-2 (squid) :

  • The makeover , and photoshoot
  • The 'Wembly' Experience ( which used include playing the game on the actual pitch!).
  • Driver Experience day at a preserved railway, where you can attempt to drive a locomotive..
  • Not Unearthing the Ark of the Covenant, (i.e assisting with an archaeological project.)
  • Becoming part of independent film production (either in front or behind the camera).

Getting Weirder:(2-3 Squids)

  • Joining the Roman, Parlimentary or Confederate army on training manouvers (i.e Renactment groups.)
  • Cosplay and conventions.

Mid-range Weird:(3-4 squids)

  • Escape Games
  • 'Spy' school

'Through the Looking Glass' (some of which might not be appropriate for this wiki):(4-5 squids)

  • Advanced 'Spy' School
  • BDSM travel
  • Live Action Role Playing and 'The Game'.

Before I plunge forward, I'd like some thoughts from other contributors :) Sfan00 IMG (talk) 23:21, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Consistency of usage[edit]


I have just watched the change at [2] and tried taking in the explanation, with an as open understanding and appreciation of the complaint as possible...

Then I check back with, which I read a couple of times in case I am not missing something

Then when one checks United Kingdom it would appear that UK and GB are in many cases interchanged without much system to it...

Then I check back with the Rail Article in question itself to look at usage:

  • Title: GB
  • First Para: UK
  • Second Para: Britain
  • Third Para: UK
  • Fourth Para: -
  • Fifth Para: GB
  • Sixth Para: B
  • Seventh Para: GB
  • Eighth Para: B

I am of the opinion we should in Wikivoyage have a sense that we are providing a consistent usage of terminology and appropriate words, and am wondering if what I preceive as a very mixed message, is in actual fact one, or am I missing something?

As an Australian wikipedian first (in Australia various terminologies are fast changing due to non-english speakers as travellers or new citizens doing quite amazing things to some usages that change, literally in front of us as we watch/listen), I am aware that non english speakers might have something entrenched in their specific language of origin have a specific skewed version of whether GB or UK works in their specific context, fair enough, but for a general appreciation of where we come from, as a baseline - do we go for some usage inclination that might not be the usually accepted, or do we concede it is too hard and have a hat note, or disclaimer of some sort? I know that on wp:en we have editors who would proceed to turn this specific issue into a Tolstoyan novel that takes 1gb space over the two terms - I am hoping we can keep this one short and sweet.

Are they freely interchangable terms/acronyms or should they be considered separate, or is one editors version of what the rail travel article should be ok as it is? Thanks for any clarity from anyone JarrahTree (talk) 00:10, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

They are indeed different. Great Britain refers to the island (so just England, Scotland and Wales), while the United Kingdom is the country (the above plus Northern Island). If the article is named Rail Travel in Great Britain now, then all the terminology within should be changed to match that. James Atalk 00:20, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Proposed region article change - feedback requested[edit]

There have been some ongoing discussions about changing Wikivoyage region articles over the past few months, and the discussion is now at a point where further comment and expressions of support/opposition would be valuable. Please comment at Wikivoyage talk:Region article template#Rethinking region articles - request for feedback. Thanks! -- Ryan • (talk) • 00:49, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

A few details of the proposed change to the way Wikivoyage handles region articles remain to be decided, so those who are interested will want to review Wikivoyage talk:Region article template#Summary (21-November) and provide any feedback. Thanks! -- Ryan • (talk) • 02:00, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Sympathies to France, Lebanon[edit]

There have been some horrific acts of terrorism lately. Beirut was hit the other day. Today, it's Paris. And in a smaller incident, an Israeli paramedic and his father were killed on the West Bank. We don't discuss politics here, nor would I want to, but I just want to extend my sympathies to everyone affected by this carnage. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:23, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Indeed- Regardless of politics, sympathies to all who were hurt or lost loved ones. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:28, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
My condolences to the friends and families of the dead. One way to honour victims and survivors of terrorism, is through improvement of articles such as Paris and Beirut, to encourage tourists to return when the destinations are wafe again. /Yvwv (talk) 21:52, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Very very sad. May those terrorists go to hell! I guess Muslim travellers to France especially Middle Eastern citizens will surely suffer from some time. --Saqib (talk) 03:37, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Who will mark the article a Guide?[edit]

I´m wondering who makes the article a guide. If I´d like to make an article I´m working on as guide, do I have to leave a message on Travellers'pub by my self? Just wondering about the process of making a Guide. - Shinae Hyun (talk) 03:02, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

It looks like the article you're talking about is Daebudo. Any user can upgrade an article to Guide when it's ready, but first there are certain requirements that an article has to fulfill. Unfortunately, Daebudo isn't quite at Guide status yet. Please see Wikivoyage:City guide status, which will tell you what improvements the article needs in order to be upgraded (for starters, the "Drink", "Connect", and "Go next" sections can't be empty). -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:30, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Request for comments for new map layer in dynamic maps[edit]

I have moved the new map layer discussion to Wikivoyage_talk:Dynamic_maps_Expedition#New_map_layer_added_for_Wikimedia.2FKartotherian in hopes of getting more specialised attention, please comment there if you've missed out on this discussion. -- torty3 (talk) 14:21, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Recent edits to Jinotega[edit]

Look at this diff, please. It's all edits by the same IP... What am I to do? I don't want to bite a newbie, but... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:04, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Undo edits that are bad and put {{subst:welcomeanon}} on the IP's talk page plus a quick explanation of why the edits were undone. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:50, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
Well I don't quite know what the good parts of said edits are... Furthermore the IP seems to confuse the departamento of Jinotega with the city itself. And as I know myself to be something of a newbie biter... Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:41, 20 November 2015 (UTC)


I am an autopatroller but I have never seen the patrol option on any edits in Recent changes. Please advise. Thanks, Rubbish computer (HALP!: I dropped the bass?) 00:30, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

I've set the "patroller" flag on your account - see if that makes a difference. WV:Recent changes patrol may be out of date - I'm not sure what our guidelines are for assigning patroller rights. -- Ryan • (talk) • 00:33, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
@Wrh2: Thanks! I didn't realise they were different groups on this wiki. --Rubbish computer (HALP!: I dropped the bass?) 00:35, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
I've never heard that there was a separate "patroller" status. Is there a way to enable any autopatroller to patrol recent changes if s/he so desires? I don't think all our other recent changes patrollers are admins, and I certainly hope not! Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:00, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
"Autopatroller" is a misnomer; it should really be "autopatrolled"; edits by these users don't need to be marked as patrolled. "Patroller", on the other hand, is a trusted status that allows patrolling (AND rollback, it should be pointed out). At the time we created the Patroller role, we had an influx of edits from Wikipedians and needed a lot of patrollers. By the time we got it implemented, though, the rush had died down and admins were able to keep up with the workload. We never created a process for granting the Patroller role. Historically, any user we trusted enough to grant Patroller rights we usually just nominated for Administrator. Powers (talk) 18:44, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
OK, you've jogged my memory on this, but I didn't think this was ever implemented. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:14, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
If that is still not changed, it means that active and highly trusted users like User:Ypsilon or User:Hobbitschuster (who have not been nominated as administrators yet, by their choice) still do not have patroller rights. If that's indeed the case, I suggest we set the patroller flag for them and any other users like them, regardless of whether they ask for it or not. If they choose to never make any use of it, that's fine too, but they should be able to. JuliasTravels (talk) 20:07, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Based on the fact that many of us (myself included) were under the impression that longtime contributions already had appropriate permissions to patrol recent changes I've updated the two accounts mentioned - hopefully that isn't controversial. I don't know if non-bureaucrats can update this permission, but if not let me know if anyone else should have permissions updated. -- Ryan • (talk) • 20:54, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Well thanks. I had had the privilege of seeing red exclamation marks on another wiki previously (before you ask, I currently don't edit there for political reasons that have no place on this wiki). I am not sure I will make use of being able to scan them, but I don't think it can do me or the wiki much harm... Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:29, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

[unindent] Just to clarify: Is the only major difference between Patrollers and Admins that Patrollers cannot block any user? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:40, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

No. Special:ListGroupRights shows the permissions each group has. Patrollers have the 'patrol' and 'rollback' rights (they should probably also have 'autopatrol', though in practice it's unlikely we'd grant the Patroller role to anyone who hadn't already been granted Autopatroller). Admins have many more: in addition to the various blocking-related rights, admins can also change page protection, adjust the edit filters, create user accounts, delete and hide page revisions (and view deleted/hidden revisions), delete pages (and view deleted pages), edit the user interface, merge page histories, override blacklists, assign the Autopatroller role, and many more rather obscure privileges. Powers (talk) 03:14, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. I had forgotten about a lot of these. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:28, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
The rollback thing seems to be for undoing edits by registered users and not IPs. Wouldn't it be more logical the other way around (as IPs are more likely to be vandals)? It's also just one click away so you can accidentally hit it if you're looking at Recent changes while editing on a tablet. Is there a way to hide the function? ϒpsilon (talk) 11:31, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Rollback is for IPs, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:34, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
That is, unless there's something weird about how rollbacks are set up for Patrollers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:37, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
At least earlier today the IP edits didn't have the rollback option while edits by you and me for example were rollable. Now here's me as an IP, let's see how it looks like in the recent changes after logging in. 13:49, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Now it's there. Possibly the option disappears if someone who's registered has been editing the page/even looked at it afterwards. Dunno. ϒpsilon (talk) 13:53, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

[unindent]Should we have a thread at Wikivoyage:Administrator nominations or somewhere else to nominate some of our favorite contributors for Patroller status? Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:40, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't think a formal nomination is required, but since it does not appear that non-bureaucrats can assign patroller rights then a list of users who should be given that permission would be useful to let LtPowers and I know when to update user rights. We might want to request that admins be given the right to assign patroller permissions so that we can handle it like we do with autopatroller and just give it to anyone who seems trustworthy. -- Ryan • (talk) • 19:21, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
That would be good. I would suggest for everyone to apply a higher level of trust for Patroller than Autopatroller status, essentially giving it to anyone who you would nominate for Admin but who prefers not to be one or was not approved for Admin simply because of a lack of much participation in policy discussions and the like. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:20, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
My only concern would be that adding the patrolling links and flags might be found to be distracting by some users with no interest in patrolling. Powers (talk) 21:44, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
In which case, it would be good to ask each person whether they'd like that status. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:52, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Different articles about the same place[edit]

I noticed we have Warsaw/Praga-Południe and Warsaw/Praga-Północ as well asWarsaw/Praga. Is this a mistake or was this done on purpose? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 08:39, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Maybe the district discussion (if any) on talk:Warsaw may be of interest here? Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:58, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
PrinceGloria knows the city and the articles best, I think. ϒpsilon (talk) 07:57, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
It became a mess when I couldn't agree with User:Sapphire I believe, and then since we weren't heading nowhere towards a consensus, I let it go. It's my home town and I dare say I indeed know it quite well. I guess the user in question stopped dropping in sometime ago, so perhaps we may reach a consensus now - although it does not feel all that right to do stuff behind their back. PrinceGloria (talk) 08:29, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
You could post to her user talk page. If she doesn't reply, I think you're perfectly alright in ignoring her opinion. People who are no longer here can be respected, but I don't think they can block a consensus in their absence. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:28, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Mount Whitney[edit]

I'm sure my work this summer makes it more than just an outline now, but I'm not sure. I've waited these months in the hopes that someone else would do it, but never saw anyone do so.--Jasper Deng (talk) 08:11, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Jasper Deng, do you mean promoting the guide to higher status? You don't have to wait, in principle, you can adjust the status yourself based on given criteria, with exception of star status, which needs a nomination. But if you are not sure, it's good to ask. You can do it for example here or on the discussion page to attract attention of other editors. You've done some good work on the article, surely the status is at least usable now. Danapit (talk) 08:44, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Automatic maintenance category... Or something[edit]

So I had a look at the outline district list again just now and it appears that first of all they have once again risen in number (not a bad thing, a wiki is a living breathing thing, after all) from just below 200 to now above 250. However, they seem to cluster an awful lot in a few specific cities with very few cities that only have one or two outline districts... Is it possible to automatically alert editors (via the talk page or some such) if any given article (let's start with cities) has more than x percent of its child articles (in this case districts) at outline or worse? With breadcrumbs this shouldn't be too much of a problem, right? Or is my non-technological humble self mistaken? (okay that was a weird way of saying that) Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:23, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Oh and btw Leeds and Atlanta seem to be among the prime offenders in that regard and the latter at least seems to have been for almost three years now... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:31, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Taipei also seems to have a similar problem... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:37, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
HS you may want to look at Wikivoyage_talk:Requests_for_maps#Many_districtified_cities_don't_have_district_maps!. The places with "D" have discussions, ahem, "going on". ϒpsilon (talk) 17:40, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Well there seems to be some overlap... Some cities it would appear are subdivided into districts but lack district maps... This may or may not be due to an excessive number of districts... And unfortunately some of these discussion are entirely DOA... This may sound radical, but... What about a "nuke from orbit" approach? Let's give a deadline by which someone can "speak or forever hold their peace" in opposition to remerging the district articles (at least for some of the worst offenders) and from there we can redraw districts with tabula rasa... Probably a bad idea, I know. Just tossin' it out there... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:48, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Almost two years back when I noticed the problems I tried to awaken some of the district discussions. I don't remember getting many answers. :/ Hm, the Leeds map is from the time when I hadn't got the hang of mapmaking. Perhaps I should make a new one sometime... ϒpsilon (talk) 18:23, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
The problem is - I fear - that many users don't feel confident chiming in when they don't know the city. I know I don't... Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:56, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Yup, when the districts are already decided upon, and perhaps some articles already been created, then it's easy to google up listings in each district to look where they are on a map and then draw a map. But if there is no basic idea whatsoever, then it's hard to come up with a meaningful district division. Often there's an official division of the city, but that's made up with inhabitants in mind rather than travelers.
If an article is so long that it should probably be districtified (IMO the number of listings in most sections (classic hotel touting of course doesn't count :)) starts approaching 35-40) there tends to be one or more active users who are seriously knowledgeable about the place who've written that content and who can help out with districts. Sadly, if those people haven't edited here in several years, we're back on square one.
Likely the best approach for the articles that aren't districtified would be to merge everything back into the main article. In the case that some city article then would be absolutely bloated with listings and stuff, I mean to the point of bursting, it can probably be divided into North/South/East/West according to things clearly visible on a map (rivers, railroads, major boulevards and highways) or let it be as it is (I'm thinking of Moscow especially). ϒpsilon (talk) 19:42, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
We did try something like your suggestion above with Seoul with good results. That article had a huge amount of districts that was rationalized to a reasonable amount (Seoul is a very big city) Andrewssi2 (talk) 20:53, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Your input requested on the proposed #FreeBassel banner campaign[edit]

This is a message regarding the proposed 2015 Free Bassel banner. Translations are available.

Hi everyone,

This is to inform all Wikimedia contributors that a straw poll seeking your involvement has just been started on Meta-Wiki.

As some of your might be aware, a small group of Wikimedia volunteers have proposed a banner campaign informing Wikipedia readers about the urgent situation of our fellow Wikipedian, open source software developer and Creative Commons activist, Bassel Khartabil. An exemplary banner and an explanatory page have now been prepared, and translated into about half a dozen languages by volunteer translators.

We are seeking your involvement to decide if the global Wikimedia community approves starting a banner campaign asking Wikipedia readers to call on the Syrian government to release Bassel from prison. We understand that a campaign like this would be unprecedented in Wikipedia's history, which is why we're seeking the widest possible consensus among the community.

Given Bassel's urgent situation and the resulting tight schedule, we ask everyone to get involved with the poll and the discussion to the widest possible extent, and to promote it among your communities as soon as possible.

(Apologies for writing in English; please kindly translate this message into your own language.)

Thank you for your participation!

Posted by the MediaWiki message delivery 21:47, 25 November 2015 (UTC) • TranslateGet help

Printing sections of articles[edit]

Is it possible to export as a PDF or, even better, as a book only sections of an article. For example, if I know I am going to fly somewhere I don't need the information on how to get there by boat! 02:56, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Quick solution One thing that you can do in a pinch is if you have a userpage, you can create something like User:Koavf/Sections I need and then use the "Print/export" options there. If you want, you can attach the "delete template" to the page after you are done and an admin will delete it. —Justin (koavf)TCM 03:31, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you so much for the quick response, that does exactly what I needed AusKat (talk) 21:38, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Happy Thanksgiving[edit]

Happy Thanksgiving to all who are celebrating, and if you are travelling, be safe on the road. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:17, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

A Happy Turkey day from me to, to all of you who celebrate it. Don't get stuck in traffic or at the airport... And don't get trampled shopping tomorrow ;-) Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:11, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

We have guests from India[edit]

Please see User talk:Ikan Kekek#Article undeletion request. These new users are students at Christ University in Bangalore. They're brand new at this site, had a rough start at first (see that user talk link), and may have limited command of English. If any of them ask for your help or make mistakes, please do your best to be helpful and patient. User:Titodutta would appear to be their instructor or representative, so s/he is probably the best liaison for us if we need to contact a student who may have missed an edit summary or user talk post. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:11, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Wow, looks like a class of 9 getting involved :) There is recent precedence for this with the Ansan that has developed into a detailed article after a few lessons learned. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 10:30, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
Yes, our new Korean members have done very well. Several other articles about South Korea have also recently been created or improved. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:31, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
By the way, I believe I count 14 among the class. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:36, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
Warm welcome to them! Perhaps someone should create some kind of template (could be useful also for future visits by school classes) to put on the student's user pages. Otherwise admins who may look at the Recent changes later today and don't notice this discussion may think it's a case of pcv. ϒpsilon (talk) 12:12, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
I did at first. But all admins should pay close attention to new threads in the Pub. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:29, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the notification! JarrahTree (talk) 12:47, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Sure. Please contact me if needed. :) --Titodutta (talk) 16:49, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
This is indeed a way in which WV can be grown! Have fun! Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:18, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
Great. Welcome. See Wikivoyage:India_Expedition for some things that need doing, or choose your own. If you like history, articles like Mughal Empire, British Raj or On the trail of Kipling's Kim might be of interest. Pashley (talk) 22:05, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Why do we tag mobile edits and visual edits?[edit]

Out of curiosity... Why do we tag edits made on mobile or via the visual editor? Is that just to generate statistics? It seems unnecessary for other users to see in the recent changes whether I'm home or out? JuliasTravels (talk) 13:27, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

As for mobile, I myself have noted making more typos on mobile devices Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:59, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
I believe all WMF wikis tag mobile and visual editor edits, so I doubt there's anything we could do to remove them. I assume they're done to track how many people are editing via the various interfaces, and to look for errors common thereto. Powers (talk) 02:02, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
Mobile is becoming the dominant platform for using Wikimedia projects. If we are going to encourage more casual editors, then it is worth knowing that people are using these tools. Personally I have never edited from mobile, but perhaps we should all think of trying it more often. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:31, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
Why in the world would I want to edit Wikivoyage on a 3-inch screen when I have a 20-inch screen readily available, or a 17-inch screen as a backup for traveling? I'm glad the option's available for those who want it, but I don't understand the value in all of us contorting our work processes to fit the mobile platform. Powers (talk) 18:13, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
Well, I think what Andrewssi is suggesting, is that it's worth being somewhat familiar with the editing environment many new users will be facing. I can imagine, for example, that many new users will not find the page history on mobile (the link for which is buried under only a part of the "this was last edited X hours ago by Y".) Useful for us patrollers then to keep that in mind when reverting, as we like to give explanations in edit summaries. JuliasTravels (talk) 22:04, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
Thanks JuliasTravels, that is what I meant. 20 inch screens are awesome for editing Wikivoyage, but travelers are more likely to carry an iPad in favor of a laptop these days. In my opinion, all improvements to the usability of WV should be 'mobile first'. Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:55, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
I do most of my listing additions on my small smartphone these days. Adding listings on-the-spot results in:
  • Better description as I remember exactly what I liked,
  • A more up-to-date Wikivoyage, as the listing made available immediately, rather than a few weeks later (or never since I am usually super-busy after coming back from vacation),
  • When I don't find all needed details, I can ask the staff ,
  • Better coordinates thanks to the GPS,
  • Picture, that I might not think to take otherwise (upload via Commons app) Syced (talk) 04:18, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
Power's explanation above is correct: The edits are tagged for the sake of the devs, and it cannot be changed locally. However, if you want to hide the notice, then CSS magic can be employed to do so.
I don't know what the stats are for Wikivoyage, but approximately a third of all page views (overall) come from the mobile site. Editors are more likely to use the desktop site. Either site can be used on either type of device. If you want to see the difference, then compare to the desktop version. The main page is strikingly different: No pictures, some additional content at the top, much missing content elsewhere. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:36, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Illustrate a guide to your favorite region[edit]

We have been having a discussion about the structure of region articles at Wikivoyage talk:Region article template, but a much bigger issue than the template we use is the lack of content in many region articles and the lack of sufficient images in even more. Since content is a more glaringly obvious problem when we see lots of white space, I'll focus on images in this thread. Tonight, I added images to the guides to Pennsylvania and Poconos and Endless Mountains‎‎, and added more images to the ones I previously added in the New Jersey guide. I've also recently added images to some very photogenic regions I like, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, French Riviera and Tuscany.

Don't these articles look way more inviting with images? Most companies that print guidebooks understand that the photos on their pages are big selling points. Do you particularly like any state, province or region? Use the link to Commons in the article (if there's no link, search Commons under its name and then add a link to the Commons category for the area at the end of the article). Look first for Featured pictures, then Quality images, then Valued images. See which ones are really in the region (you may get lots of irrelevant results). If the selection is not sufficiently relevant or wide, search on the names of cities or other points of interest you'd like to use photos for, and look at the photos to see which ones you like. It can take quite a while to look through a sufficient number of images, but if you know a region well, you will have an idea of what you want to look at (for example, for Tuscany, after I looked through the search results for the whole region, I searched under Florence, Siena, Pisa, Lucca, Arezzo, San Gimignano and several other places), and it can be an enjoyable way to kill time if you have the time to spare.

So adopt a region today and make its article more inviting! Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:40, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this up, Ikan. It's really awful when you in the worst case can scroll down more than times (Pgdown I think Windows user call it) and don't see a single picture. Makes me wonder if these are travel guides or instructions how to file for tax returns. Illustration of articles is something I've occasionally done for quite a while, sometime even thinking of a systematic Ypspedition to illustrate all ~200 country articles (nevertheless I figured it would take too long). I don't browse Commons for distinguished photos but just photos that illustrate the topic well and I personally like. ϒpsilon (talk) 13:17, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
I always look through Featured, Quality and Valued image results first, but if there aren't enough of those that are relevant and beautiful, I look through the larger selection of photos. Some photos that have no special classification in Commons are great! Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:14, 28 November 2015 (UTC)


Hi, i'm improving incheon page. I think it is close to guide status. Can someone make it a guide? or tell me what else to improve??

Thank you.

--Pkh409 (talk) 01:57, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it's coming closer to Guide status but some improvements need to be made first:
  • The "Stay safe" section needs to be filled out.
  • The listings in the "Eat" and "Sleep" sections need to be broken down by price: "Budget", "Mid-range", and "Splurge" (see Wikivoyage:Big city article template for more about this).
  • Many of the listings in the "See", "Eat", and "Sleep" sections need descriptions. It's not enough to only include the address, phone number, website, and price.
  • It's fine to include a little bit of information about the subway system, but we try to avoid long lists on this site, so it's better not to name every single station as you did in the "Get in" section.
Keep up the good work!
-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:40, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
Also please:
  • Include latitude/longitude for all listings
  • Move information like "It is located in songdo international city" in "directions, it must not be in "description".
  • All listings must have a description, saying for instance what is special with this hotel or whether it is old, has a pool, or this kind of things.
Thanks a lot! Syced (talk) 04:40, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Help needed: Fix many simple errors[edit]

Alex and me maintain this list of URL and email misspellings that you can easily fix.

It is updated automatically every 2 weeks, so bookmark it and come back whenever you have a minute to kill. Feedback welcome! (bug tracker, source code) Thanks! :-) Syced (talk) 04:02, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Community Wishlist Survey[edit]

Hi everyone!

We're beginning the second part of the Community Tech team's Community Wishlist Survey, and we're inviting all active contributors to vote on the proposals that have been submitted.

Thanks to you and other Wikimedia contributors, 111 proposals were submitted to the team. We've split the proposals into categories, and now it's time to vote! You can vote for any proposal listed on the pages, using the {{Support}} tag. Feel free to add comments pro or con, but only support votes will be counted. The voting period will be 2 weeks, ending on December 14.

The proposals with the most support votes will be the team's top priority backlog to investigate and address. Thank you for participating, and we're looking forward to hearing what you think!

/Johan (WMF) using MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 14:41, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't have time to read through all those any time soon, but if any of you guys does and finds proposals that would benefit Wikivoyage, it would be nice if you could post them here. I'd like to support a few proposals that make sense to us. JuliasTravels (talk) 14:54, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
Yes, please. m:2015 Community Wishlist Survey shows a few proposals specifically for Wikisource, Wikiversity, and Wikidata, but I don't see anything that is categorized as being specific to Wikivoyage. The only two that mentioned Wikivoyage by name are m:2015 Community Wishlist Survey/Miscellaneous#Education Program interface changes (to promote editing Wikivoyage as part of teacher-supervised classes) and in the prior discussion about m:2015 Community Wishlist Survey/Wikidata#Whole Infobox from Wikidata. There are probably more that would be interesting. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:07, 1 December 2015 (UTC)