Wikivoyage:Travellers' pub

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Problems on big screens[edit]

Main page
Article with too small banner

I've just set my new screen up. Now I have noticed that your pages does not look very nice on my screen. The main page as well as the normal articles. Everything is too small. Especially the main page looks really strange. I am not sure whether you have discussed this already. I have added tweo screenshots. Centering the content could be a first solution, I think. I have a 27" screen (2550 pixelks width). Meanwhile these screen are not that exotic any longer and people will use it at home as well (like me). So we should consider such screens as well. -- DerFussi 09:07, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

Also something I noticed on my 24 inch screen. The first one is down to our banner templates which scale images down to 2100 pixels no matter the source resolution (I upload banners in as high a resolution as possible in anticipation that this will be increased). --Andrewssi2 (talk) 09:20, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
I usually just enlarge the browser scale with 'ctrl +' or ctrl mouse scroll wheel (or in your case maybe (Strg +). Not sure with web browsers but I have other applications that have a HD screen menu customisation option to make icons larger pixel sizes, also useful on high pixel count tablets. --Traveler100 (talk) 12:22, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
It's a bit tricky trying to find a balance between supporting very hi-res screens and not forcing users on smaller screens to download huge images. At the moment the DOTM/OTBP/Featured banner images are limited to 1700px width but they are still 230kb for Hilo, 284kb for the phrasebook, and 496kb for Kyoto, which is way too much for someone on a small screen. It's probably worth looking at how the pagebanner code sends different sized images to different users and seeing if that can be leveraged for the main page.
For now, those with a large screen can add the following to your User:UserPage/common.css file, which I think will allow page banners and everything but the map on the main page to stretch to larger sizes:
.banner-image {
    max-width: 100%; 
#mainpage-map {
        max-width: 100%;
.wpb-topbanner, .wpb-topbanner img {
        max-width: 100%;
.jcarousel-wrapper {
        max-width: 100%;
Fixing the map requires getting rid of the 1125px limit in Template:Mapbanner, but since doing so will add to the page size for users on small screens I haven't changed it. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:16, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
The problem is not my own screen. I can live with that (WV is part of my life). The problem are our readers and visitors that come over here by using search engines. Or journalists or blogger who want to write about us. They don't know about personal css files. And we can not expect that they create personal css files befor using WV. They also dont want to use browser magnifying shortcuts. They look at it and think: Oops, it looks quite nonprofessional - and go. And the article banner in Phnom Penh on the screenshot looks nonprofessional. In worst case we get bad advertising. We do not make this website for us, we make it for them. We should not forget that. The website should look acceptable (not perfect) on all screens and devices (desktop, table, phone). WV/it at least centers the content on main page. Look more acceptable to me than left aligned. -- DerFussi 07:32, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
To clarify, I'm not suggesting personal CSS as a long-term fix, I'm suggesting it is something you can try for now to see if it helps to resolve the problem until we can find a long-term fix. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:34, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
So if I understand correctly it is not the size of the image that has been uploaded but a restriction of what the pagebanner downloads to the viewer? Can it not be smart enough to know what screen size it should build too? People who are on wide screens generally do not have a bandwidth issue. On the usability side though, I think it would be good to download large images to high definition medium sized screens for better quality but I question the usefulness for large screens. It really is not good to have such a wide page to read paragraphs of text, it is difficult for the eye to trace back to the start of the next line when more than about 15 words per line. Generally I either set browsers to large zoom, or not the whole width of screen or move to second or third screen which is in portrait position (as people still insist on publishing documents that are portrait not landscape format). --Traveler100 (talk) 16:05, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
If the pagebanner adjusts the download based on viewer width, it should use the width of the browser window, not that of the screen. I for one only at rare occasions maximize the browser window. --LPfi (talk) 20:10, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
Good point, window width is the deciding factor not screen width. Due to reading line length I also tend not to do full screen. --Traveler100 (talk) 20:20, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
Of course it depends on the browser width. Nobody doubts about it. But i think its not useful (and shortsighted) to base a web design on the own browsing behaviour. A website should at least show not any glitch on all screen sizes. Thats what I wanted to point out. I think its very useful to use some time to set some css for @media (min-width: 1900px) {}up. -- DerFussi 05:50, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Note many sites limit a column max width on the content area. There are good reasons behind this, even if it seems counterintuitive - readability improves. It's dangerous and unfair to assume "People who are on wide screens generally do not have a bandwidth issue". A large image could be loaded on a large screen but this means a user on a slow/expensive connection may be punished simply for having a large monitor. The site gets slower and user engagement may drop/ I'd strongly urge the community to limit the entire content area rather than thinking about loading larger banners. Jdlrobson (talk) 20:53, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
Well, there is every permutation of user here I guess, from a massively wide monitor on a low bandwidth connection to an iPhone on 4G. There isn't 'one size fits all'.
I would urge however against being too precious about this point. The obvious trend over the past 10 years has been ever increasing bandwidth in all parts of the world and it will continue to be the case. If we extend the banner across the width of the browser window it is not going to exclude anyone. Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:45, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
I would urge you to read this report. 2G and slower connections are much more important than you might think. "The majority of the mobile users in the world uses a 2G connection, the growth will happen in the countries where the 2G usage is highest. And proxy browsers usage is low so it doesn't solve the problem. We need to have a site that is fast on 2G." Jdlrobson (talk) 18:00, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
There is no requirement whatsoever for the site to be 'fast on 2G'. The banner is basically another image on the article, no more and no less. It is distasteful to suggest people with 2G connections want to have a low quality experience, especially since most of those 2G connections will upgrade rapidly over the next 10 years. In any case there is a separate template used for mobile devices, and the banner is scaled down accordingly for that. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:49, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
It's not just a 2G question; voyagers relying on mobile data are likely to be either roaming at some inflated price or using a local pre-paid SIM with relatively limited data support. A dime a megabyte is typical for those sort of plans here, with wide variation in the number of megabytes in the bundle. K7L (talk) 02:53, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Pagebanner - why cannot it not be fixed[edit]

So do we give up on the new Pagebanner syntax. Would be a shame to lose the drop-down of sub-sections but maybe it is the price to pay for not having the contents section keep randomly appearing on pages. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:58, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

Anyone working with the Pagebanner reading this? (I've already got so used to the problem being there that I seldom notice it any longer) ϒpsilon (talk) 19:24, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
On it:voy I haven't implemented the extension but I've add some code in the templates. Basically the benefit of the extension are two:
  1. fixed mobile visualization: already implemented
  2. drop down menu: on this topic I'm half way.
Unfortunately my real job has reduced dramatically my available time for voy, but if someone would like to support me on the finalization of this coding, we could rid off this extension with all the relevant bugs that time by time occurs here on en:voy. I'll be more than glad to explain where I've arrived and what is still missing. PS In case ping me on it:voy. --Andyrom75 (talk) 18:45, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
Andyrom75, that sounds promising. I don't think that my coding skills will be sufficient to contribute (and I don't have much time either), but on a longer run this may be a good solution.
In the meantime, I can only ping @Jdlrobson: The Pagebanner extension does not work properly, and we need a developer who can fix it. --Alexander (talk) 20:57, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
Hi. First I've heard of this. What issue are you seeing? Is there a phabricator task open? The best way to reach developers is to write a task or poke us on existing tasks there (watching every single projects Village pump sadly doesn't scale) - we're pretty respondent there I promise! What does "price to pay for not having the contents section keep randomly appearing on pages." mean? The only table of contents related bug I've seen was big caching issue that hit the entire cluster (and was unrelated to WikidataPageBanner) and got fixed Tue, Mar 8. In practice, many less frequently edited pages would have still been impacted by that bug up to April 8th due to the 30 day cache window in place. If you're still seeing issues that sound familiar to that, there may be something else going on that I'll happily personally look into for you. Jdlrobson (talk) 22:55, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
Unless I'm mistaken the issue is phabricator:T121135 (TOC appears in the article instead of the banner) which has been ongoing for several months. -- Ryan • (talk) • 23:00, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
I see the problem moderately often. Lapu-Lapu is a current example. Pashley (talk) 04:42, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
I will be deploying a fix within the next hour that will hopefully resolve this. I may need to touch the pagebanner template to verify. Will update you soon! Jdlrobson (talk) 15:10, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
It seems simply editing the template with a null edit or purging doesn't propagate to the pages that use it. Could someone edit the template to include a comment e.g.
<!-- cacheversion 1-->
and let me know when that's been done? Ping Ryan. Make sure this is in the output HTML - this will also help us with future debugging if people update it :) Jdlrobson (talk)
I've made the requested edit, but I'm not sure you will see it in source - doesn't MediaWiki strip HTML comments from the generated HTML output? -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:07, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
Yes you are right. HTML comments are stripped so that's no good. That said if you view the source of a page impacts by the table of contents bug e.g. Monmouth_(Oregon) you'll see "Cached time: 20160328210714" - a time before this fix went live - it seems editing a template is not enough to force a re-render of pages that use that template. We may need to manually purge any troublesome articles and wait 30 days for this problem to fully go away. We could ask the Wikimedia operations to do a cache flush but I'm not sure this is advisable or allowed given the non-unbreak now nature of this problem. :/ Jdlrobson (talk) 16:14, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
Editing the template will force pages using that template to update in the cache, but unless things have changed it's done via a work queue so it takes a while for all pages to be updated, depending on server load and current queue size. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:22, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
Seems like you are right. Yay I learnt something! Looks like the issue has disappeared from Wikivoyage. After hitting random several times I have not hit a single page with the issue. Can you confirm you see the same? Jdlrobson (talk) 16:40, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
First, thanks for your efforts in trying to solve this issue. Note, however, that forcing a cache purge by editing Template:Pagebanner has been our workaround for the issue over the past several months - doing so always "fixes" the articles for a few days, but then in-article TOCs start building up again. I think we'll need to wait a couple of weeks to see if the issue occurs again before it will be safe to declare that the latest code change fully resolves the issue. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:49, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
It seems like the changes User:Jdlrobson made may have fixed this issue - I haven't seen the problem re-occur in the two weeks since his change went live. If anyone else comes across an in-article TOC please add a comment with a link to the article on phabricator:T121135. Many, many thanks to Jdlrobson for tracking down a difficult problem. -- Ryan • (talk) • 17:42, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Pre-fill templates[edit]

Hello, how have you made the pre fill templates ? With an extension ? A script ? Thank you Archi38 (talk) 19:35, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

What templates are you looking for? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:37, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
Generally the approach to templates on WV has been to reduce their number if possible and practicable in order to make editing easier. However, I don't know what pre-fill templates are and they may indeed justify addition to the limited list of templates in use on WV Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:39, 17 March 2016 (UTC)s
@Ikan Kekek: @Hobbitschuster: On this wiki you call it "standart section". I'm talking about "City • City District • Region • National Park • Phrasebook • Huge airport • Dive site • Disambiguation • Redirect" when you create a new page. Archi38 (talk) 06:26, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Oh. Yes, we do. Go to Wikivoyage:Article templates and press "quick version" on any of the templates. The other way to do it is by searching for the title you want to create and then choosing the template when you are asked whether you want to create an article on that title. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:47, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
@Archi38: See MediaWiki:Newarticletext. That is the message displayed when creating new articles, and is how the option to pre-populate the new article window with an existing template is generated. For each template type we have created a template (for example {{Smallcity skeleton}} which you will see used in the calls from that MediaWiki: message (for example // -- Ryan • (talk) • 13:44, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
@Wrh2: I already did it but how do you remove the little blue icon at right of the template's link ? Archi38 (talk) 16:23, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
The following CSS will do it:
.mw-newarticletext a.external {
    background: none !important;
-- Ryan • (talk) • 16:30, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

Thank you to all ! You helped me a lot ! Archi38 (talk) 17:58, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

Please help fix the NOCC[edit]

Search Wikivoyage for "NOCC" and you will find many articles that contain phone number missing a country code. You can easily find the country's calling code (look at other articles of the same country) and fix them. Thanks! :-) Syced (talk) 14:08, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Oui, mais on a une catégorie pour ça: Category:Listing with phone format issue should be the easiest way to find these. :) K7L (talk) 12:27, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
As noted in an earlier discussion, there is now also a gadget that can be enabled that will highlight listings containing bad syntax to make it easier to see what needs fixing - see #New functionality for finding bad syntax on pages - Error highlighter. -- Ryan • (talk) •
I've also noticed that adding the maintenance category to Special:Watchlist will now notify every time a badly-formatted listing is added to a previously-valid page. That seems to catch a lot of "new" contributions, including the hôteliers who pop up once to add a listing praising their own hotel and then vanish. The "no country code" thing is a common mistake for those unfamiliar with Wikivoyage? K7L (talk) 19:07, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

NOCC on domestic-only freephone numbers[edit]

Wikivoyage:Phone numbers says to omit the country code if a number isn't dialable from abroad at all, usually as a toll-free or freephone number in a format like Jenny's, toll-free: 01 800 8675309. . That's triggering the "NOCC" warnings. Is this a bug? K7L (talk) 20:57, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

To K7L:  It shouldn't be. There are exceptions in place for tollfree numbers beginning with: 0508, 0800, 1300 & 1800. -- WOSlinker (talk) 22:22, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
From Wikivoyage talk:Phone numbers#Mexican toll-free numbers it looks like 01 800 is was the culprit? K7L (talk) 23:10, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


Any objection to changing Îles-de-la-Madeleine (Magdalen Islands, Quebec - population 12781, on 79 square miles and seven inhabited islands) from a région to a bottom-level rural destination to match fr:Îles-de-la-Madeleine? It looks to be one town (Cap aux Meules) and a few tiny villages; both languages are tagged as "outline", each listing some venues missing from the other. There are no lower-level articles under this one in either language. K7L (talk) 15:23, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm astonished that it wasn't already. Please do. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:29, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Listing in Kassel doesn't format right[edit]

Can you have a look at the listing for "Grimmwelt museum" in our Kassel article? It seems to not format correctly for some reason... Also, what's up with the italics in the main body of the listing text? Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:18, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

I managed to fix it somehow. Side note: italicizing the description and adding a public transportation icon like that isn't, I believe, really in line with our manual of style. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:28, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
There is a known bug with the listing editor that triggers when the "content" section of a listing contains brackets, pipes, and equal signs (Wikivoyage:Listing editor#Bugs and feedback). It's unusual for listings to have those values, but it looks like several museum listings in the Kassel article meet that criteria and thus will break when edited. Removing the icons from the listings ([[File:Zeichen 224.svg|15px]]) or else moving them to a template (like Template:Food-icon) should be viable workarounds until the listing editor is updated. -- Ryan • (talk) • 19:38, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
On another note, the user in question wants to get Kassel featured in time for the next documenta (which I think is a good idea, though unfortunately the only thing I know about Kassel is traffic jams and ICE delays passing through), but it seems that a native speaker would have to look over (some of) the language, as there seem to be some mistakes and I am not always sure what the right way of putting it is... Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:41, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Consider posting this information at appropriate places in Wikivoyage[edit]

YELLOW FEVER - COUNTRIES WITH DENGUE: ALERT ‪#‎YFASIA. Re-emphasize the importance of YF vaccination. ‬ Jtamad (talk) 03:39, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

We have an article about dengue fever and infectious diseases. K7L (talk) 07:59, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
And yellow fever. And, if needed, country and destination articles. ϒpsilon (talk) 09:08, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
Unfortunately those are rarely linked to - I only found them by using the search and then added links to pages I was working on anyway. Jlg23 (talk) 02:40, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Video on the new map feature[edit]

Tomasz is doing a live demo of the new map feature in the Metrics and Activities meeting – look about 45 minutes into the video. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:49, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Agree really cool stuff. Very useful for WV. Travel Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:53, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
Interactive maps. Excellent! How do we make all the dynamic maps on Wikivoyage interactive like that? Are they already? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:22, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
It's definitely got potential. To Ikan's question, no, our dynamic maps don't work like that. It's a different tag (<mapframe>) with different functionality. I'm not sure how we'd switch it over, but I don't think we're there yet.
If you're interested, I've been playing with the maps a bit -- User:Shaundd/Maps Demo and User:Shaundd/Dynamic_Region_Map. In addition to the stuff in the video, it can do some things that our current dynamic maps can't, like creating clickable dynamic maps and creating shaded polygons (useful if you want to highlight a particular neighbourhood in a city map). On the downside, I think there are still some Wikivoyage-specific quirks that should be worked out. For example, I haven't figured out how to get our existing listings to show in one of these maps, although I assume that's a fairly easy technical fix for someone who's good with those things. Those points they add in the video don't link with our listings tags so we could end up with two sets of coordinates for the same listing. Maps currently only has one layer, so we'd lose the GPX tracks, cycle maps, hill shading, OSM view (mapnik), MapQuest layer, etc, that our current dynamic maps have. The Visual Editor interface makes it really easy to set up a map and add points of interest and polygons, but to make them useful (e.g., change their colour, size, marker style, create a mapmask, add a name) you need to edit the GeoJSON that underlies the map. My understanding is Yurik and the Maps team would like to go in these directions, it's a work-in-progress.
It'd be great if more people played with/tested the Maps/mapframe feature so there's more diversity in the feedback. There's a discussion at Meta and so far it's mostly Yurik and the developers, me and some folks from Dutch WV. More opinions would be helpful! -Shaundd (talk) 15:38, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I made test implementation of the new maps for Wikivoyage: city article and country article with a fully dynamic(!) map of regions. The map of regions is embedded into the article just like static maps. Other dynamic maps can be opened (unfolded) by clicking on the map icon next to "Открыть карту" on the right side of the page. A few things remain to be polished, but in general the new maps are fully operational, and importing map masks from OSM turned out to be surprisingly easy. Not to mention the cool feature of drawing masks (polygons) using Visual Editor. Many thanks to Yurik and his team! --Alexander (talk) 14:12, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

It will be awesome if we can easily utilize city borders and other data from OSM with the new map framework, and I'm excited by the potential applications. Many thanks to those who have been providing feedback and figuring out how to integrate these new maps with the existing templates and listing data. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:57, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
Cool. Alexander, could you edit the map mask with the Visual Editor after importing the data from OSM? I imported some data (not from OSM) and it displays OK when reading the page but I can't edit it in the Visual Editor. -Shaundd (talk) 05:11, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
No, I could not. But I also stored all masks on separate page(s) so that they do not clutter the article. --Alexander (talk) 06:44, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Being able to use two maps per article sounds great! (for instance town center + suburbs) Syced (talk) 05:18, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Trans-Canada Highway links to multiple dynamic maps, splitting the 8000+ km route into multiple regional segments. Will the new implementation display these inline? K7L (talk) 15:33, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Question about pageview statistics[edit]

Why, in your opinion, have the Hebrew Wikivoyage articles got more views in the recent days than all of the other Wikivoyage editions? This clearly can't be correct. ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 17:54, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Another question: How have edits and active users developed in recent years? Is there a usable statistic on this? Pageview statistics don't seem to be all that accurate... Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:39, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
We haven't had many active users beside myself. probably around 5 more semi-active users. I myself though have focused a lot on building up the core foundation of the website (I think I have done the work of circa 10 people so far), so this might have some impact on the readership (see my theory below). ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 19:56, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

My suspicion on this matter, is that that once in a while (maybe once a year?), Google would test the relevancy + popularity of the content in specific websites by sending A LOT more people to the pages of specific websites which it suspects might be of higher interest to the general public. For example, I won't be surprised if the Hebvoy articles were higher in for about 24 or 48 hours, and that after this test the page views return to normal again while Google adjusts the amount of people they send to the content on a daily basis based on how they automatically measured the relevancy each page has to the users (maybe, among other things, based on the amount of time each user spent reading the page before returning to Google). ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 19:56, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Btw, my question above was also targeted towards this language version. I am not quite sure if we are declining, growing or holding steady... However, I do know that de-WT [sic!] is dead. Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:19, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, what in the world happened at de:? Not even a year ago they were routinely getting twice the number of pageviews as en:, but they cratered last summer and they haven't even cleared the million mark in any month after September 2015. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:27, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
I am not talking about German Wikivoyage, I was talking about that other site's German edition, which is so dead in the water it is almost funny. As for what happened with de-WV, I cannot quite tell. Call it a cliché, but I have sometimes perceived their style of dealing with things a bit more bureaucratic and cumbersome than here, on the other hand their coverage is quite good for some areas and almost nonexistent elsewhere. But pageview statistics are quite likely not the gospel truth.... Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:31, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Do you think my theory above is the real reason for such a sharp increase in pageviews? or do you have an alternative explanation? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 00:36, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

w:Slashdot effect can cause a short-term spike fairly easily if a usually-quiet wiki gets mentioned at a higher-traffic site or in a media report. K7L (talk) 01:02, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Our policy on galleries[edit]

I have forgotten what our policy on galleries is. In recent edits to Kassel, quite a few of them were added. IIRC we do have a policy of "there is such a thing as too many images", but I have forgotten the details. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:40, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Check this out. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:45, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
Thank you. So what should be done in the concrete example? Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:01, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
I think they need to be removed. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:19, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
Could you do that? I am weary of klutzing up the formatting Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:38, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Yes Done ϒpsilon (talk) 19:03, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Thank you. Maybe we should communicate with the user who inserted the galleries why our policy exists. I think it has to do with bandwidth considerations, but apparently de-WV has drawn different conclusions... Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:05, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Help wanted - fix broken links[edit]

I've written a bot that will flag broken URLs with {{dead link}}, which will print a very noticeable warning next to broken links for people who have enabled the ErrorHighlighter gadget from Special:Preferences (for those who haven't enabled the gadget the warning is invisible). Articles with broken links will also appear in Category:Articles with dead external links. I'm still validating that the bot won't break anything and have thus only run it against Category:Star articles and a handful of other articles, but at present that still leaves over 50 articles needing links fixed (or removed, in cases where the associated business has closed). Please help out by reviewing/fixing broken links in Category:Articles with dead external links, and if you would like to see the bot run against a specific article or group of articles please let me know and I will do so. Feedback appreciated. -- Ryan • (talk) • 17:16, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

It would be nice if you could somehow mention the exact link that is dead. Preferably on the talk page in question. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:38, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
What does it mean that a link is dead, in this context? A website can be temporarily down or unavailable. Even HTTP 404 responses may be due to a temporary malconfiguration. --LPfi (talk) 18:05, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
@Hobbitschuster: if you enable the ErrorHighlighter gadget then you will see a very noticeable "dead link" message right next to the broken link. @LPfi: right now the bot flags links that return 404 errors (page not found) and DNS lookup errors (site not found) as dead links. I've set the bot up so that when it is re-run it will first delete all instances of {{dead link}} in the article, so if a link that was broken somehow comes back to life it would no longer be flagged as dead. -- Ryan • (talk) • 18:22, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Where do you activate that? Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:46, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
In Preferences / Gadgets / Experimental, tick ErrorHighlighter. -- WOSlinker (talk) 19:07, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
OK. I suppose those errors should not occur on well maintained sites. It would probably still be good to include a timestamp in the template, so that a link that has been dead a long time and those recently marked could be told apart. Then the old templates should also not be removed, but left alone, unless the link has come live again (or the error has become a transient one). --LPfi (talk) 18:26, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
The timestamp is already being added - see Special:Diff/2966265/2969005 which added {{dead link|April 2016}} to nine links. The current implementation uses month and year, which matches w:Template:Dead link, but I would need to modify the bot to leave old template timestamps in place when the bot is re-run. -- Ryan • (talk) • 18:36, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Sometimes, a link looks to have "come live again" but is actually being cybersquatted - the original venue is still dead and some unsavoury characters registered the name the moment the original legitimate registration expired. The site then returns advertising, linkspam or a listing of the domain name for sale at some extortionate price. Often, it merely redirects traffic to some other domain. If we link to that sort of domain, it makes us look spammy. K7L (talk) 18:44, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
The bot is admittedly much more limited than a human editor - for example, there is no way for a bot to accurately determine if a link is to a site that is being cybersquatted, and as noted previously I'm not flagging sites that timeout or have other potentially temporary issues. That said, I think there is significant value in flagging links that are clearly dead, both to ensure we are linking to accurate information and as a way to more easily find listings for places that might have gone out of business. -- Ryan • (talk) • 19:15, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
The bot will not find all links that need updating but it is finding enough for now. Looks like there is much work to do, is going to take a concerted effort to fix them all but this will improve the site for readers and its search engine ranking. --Traveler100 (talk) 19:58, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
Two updates: first, I've been running the bot in batches against Category:Guide articles, but it's slow going since I want to review all changes to catch any bad edits - examples of bad edits include this one to the "Humphrey's" listings that require fixes to the bot code to handle unexpected characters like a semicolon in a URL. Second, for some reason I am occasionally seeing DNS lookup failures for valid sites, which the bot then flags incorrectly. I switched to Google Public DNS, but I've still seen a couple of false positives; I'd like to get that issue resolved before having the bot run against too many articles. -- Ryan • (talk) • 20:24, 12 April 2016 (UTC)


As of 17-April the bot has now run against all star & guide articles, so any dead links in those articles should now be tagged with {{dead link}}. While the vast majority of tagging was done without issue, there are a tiny number of edge cases that aren't handled properly and require updates to the code before the bot can be run without supervision. In the mean time, if anyone wants to see the bot run against a specific article or group of articles please let me know. -- Ryan • (talk) • 18:13, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Until now I've been running the bot in batches and manually reviewing changes in order to catch any problems. Issues that I've fixed include problems with URLs ending in ")", issues with w:Internationalized domain names, occasional DNS lookup failures for valid URLs (I've switched to Google DNS to resolve that one), etc. Since things look fairly good at this point I'm going to let the bot run unsupervised, but if anyone notices any links flagged incorrectly please let me know so I can fix the code. -- Ryan • (talk) • 04:29, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
The bot is doing a good job. I have just noticed on Cramlington that it marked 5 links, but the edit summary only said "Flag 4 potential dead links". In this case this is because two links are the same. I think that this is sufficiently rare not to be a problem. AlasdairW (talk) 21:44, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

The bot has finished running against all articles. After ten years the site has unfortunately built up a lot of dead links, but hopefully having a way to tag them will allow for easier future maintenance. -- Ryan • (talk) • 07:03, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

For anyone else who is like me and keeps an eye on articles within a certain region, a useful tool for finding articles in that region with deadlinks is Here's an example for using that tool to find all articles with dead links within Southern California: [1] (replace "Southern California" with your region of choice). -- Ryan • (talk) • 19:23, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Suggestion for Twitter - quick and easy fix (I guess)[edit]

Our Twitter seems to have become largely dormant. I suggest the following Quick and easy fix in absence of anything more elaborate that would need more resources. Let's just have it tweet our "discovers" with links once they enter the discover main page. Thus far we have always produced enough discover sniplets and it may be able to be implemented with an automated system. What do you think? I think it's better than nothing, absent an enthusiastic user manning our Twitter handle... Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:50, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

@Hobbitschuster: This idea sounds good, as it only needs someone to copy and paste the sniplets (I like that word) into Twitter, and having just checked, most of the ones at the bottom of WV:Discover are under 140 characters.  Seagull123  Φ  21:32, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
@Hobbitschuster: @Seagull123: I usually tweet using the italian Wikivoyage Twitter account (with only few followers). I can suggest to schedule tweet using tweetdeck: in an hour it's possible to schedule many tweets (especially if you already have the text to copy and paste) and then you don't have to remember daily/weekly to post a new tweet. I hope to have been useful. --Lkcl it (Talk) 18:49, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. Anybody else got an opinion on that? Ikan? Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:24, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
I don't really have an opinion, except that if you'd like to handle the Twitter account, great! Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:48, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
@Lkcl_it, Hobbitschuster: The idea of scheduling tweets sounds good, as then it lessens the workload of anyone using the account even more than just copy and pasting from Discover daily.  Seagull123  Φ  21:10, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Should airport articles require eat listings for usable status?[edit]

I have been to my fair share of airports and generally the availability of overpriced chain food is the default assumption, hence it is not as essential for navigating the airport for there to be a dedicated listing as it is for cities (Does Traben Trarbach have good restaurants? Well, the WV site should say so if it does!). I think other things are more important for airports. And as airport articles do not list hotels outside of the immediate airport property, sleep listings can also be problematic, as some airports do not have any accommodation on their own grounds. So maybe the focus on eat sleep x which makes sense for destination articles does not make as much sense for airports? Thoughts? Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:01, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

In an airport a traveller is generally confined to a particular zone. It is useful to know what is available in each zone, even if this is not the detail of eat listings. I want to know if there is only a small cafe in international departures, particularly if there is more before security. In a city I am less bothered, as it is usually easy to eat in a neighbouring area if the choice of restaurants is poor. AlasdairW (talk) 22:59, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Airports normally don't get their own articles. An exception was only made for the largest ones, like Heathrow Airport, because they had town-like levels of complexity (restaurants, hotels, shops, connections to surface transport) that made them too big to simply include in the "By air" section of their primary host city. If the only food is a pair of vending machines, does the airport really need its own article? K7L (talk) 23:42, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Well I don't know, you tell me in the case of airports like London Stansted Airport, you could certainly argue either way, it certainly does not mention anything about eating stuff there. It also does not particularly strike me as "town like complexity". However, Benito Juárez International Airport also lacks eat listings, but it tells me that I can in fact eat stuff there.... And I think MEX is certainly an airport worth having an article on.... Due most of the things we usually put into listings actually make sense for airport eateries? Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:48, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
I'm rather pro airport articles. Mainly because there is a lot of useful traveler content that I don't want to see in the city article itself. Additionally an airport such as Heathrow or JFK will service travelers who are not visiting London or New York. London Stansted Airport is useful because it is actually a large airport and nowhere near London. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:35, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
I am not arguing against airport articles, I am arguing for tweaks to their status ratings. As airports have places to eat generic overpriced fastfood as per the default I don't know whether eat listings should be given undue weight... Hobbitschuster (talk) 02:05, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
For airports, I think it would suffice to have some general text mentioning the eating options. The same would go for Sleep, at least in the cases where the closest hotel is several kms away. On the other hand, during an hour on an airport I think you're more likely to want to Buy something or Connect to the Internet than during an hour in a city, so perhaps it would be good to require something in these sections too/instead for an article to be usable. ϒpsilon (talk) 16:09, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── That's probably a good direction to start. Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:16, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Should be fine. What I want to know about an airport is whether I can spend some hours relaxing there (cinemas, restaurants, etc) or should I avoid it for as long as possible and stay in the city? Andrewssi2 (talk) 19:04, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
So... Are we getting any closer to actually changing anything? I have yet to hear a voice dissenting from the "something needs to be done" consensus... Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:30, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
I would plunge forward and propose a specific change to the criteria at Wikivoyage talk:Airport Expedition or Wikivoyage talk:Airport guide status. Powers (talk) 23:29, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Interview for a WMDE Podcast (in english) about Wikivoyage[edit]

Hi all -- I produce a podcast for Wikimedia Deutschland in English about interesting projects, community initiatives, open source, you name it.. and currently we're working on an episode on Wikivoyage. Would any of you experienced members of the community be available to speak, say via skype, and share your interest and explain what excites you about this resource? 5 to 10 minutes? If so please get in touch, we're trying to put these audio bits together in the coming days. Send me a message, here or perhaps best via email mark at citizenreporter dot org. Bicyclemark (talk) 22:06, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

We were in touch earlier about this. I reiterate my interest and have already sent you an email to that effect. Eagerly awaiting further information. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:20, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Is there a technology available to ban invite links for e.g. uber?[edit]

Seeing this edit (unfortunately it's nontrivial to revert, as it is "buried" under somewhat useful edits), I am wondering, is there a way to ban such "invite" links before they happen? I know they are against policy, but so is touting and it never kept anybody from trying... Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:50, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

@Hobbitschuster: If this is still an issue: there is a thing called AbuseFilter. Commons admins seem to use it quite frequently for similar tasks … --El Grafo (talk) 15:21, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Server switch 2016[edit]

The Wikimedia Foundation will be testing its newest data center in Dallas. This will make sure Wikipedia and the other Wikimedia wikis can stay online even after a disaster. To make sure everything is working, the Wikimedia Technology department needs to conduct a planned test. This test will show whether they can reliably switch from one data center to the other. It requires many teams to prepare for the test and to be available to fix any unexpected problems.

They will switch all traffic to the new data center on Tuesday, 19 April.
On Thursday, 21 April, they will switch back to the primary data center.

Unfortunately, because of some limitations in MediaWiki, all editing must stop during those two switches. We apologize for this disruption, and we are working to minimize it in the future.

You will be able to read, but not edit, all wikis for a short period of time.

  • You will not be able to edit for approximately 15 to 30 minutes on Tuesday, 19 April and Thursday, 21 April, starting at 14:00 UTC (15:00 BST, 16:00 CEST, 10:00 EDT, 07:00 PDT).

If you try to edit or save during these times, you will see an error message. We hope that no edits will be lost during these minutes, but we can't guarantee it. If you see the error message, then please wait until everything is back to normal. Then you should be able to save your edit. But, we recommend that you make a copy of your changes first, just in case.

Other effects:

  • Background jobs will be slower and some may be dropped.

Red links might not be updated as quickly as normal. If you create an article that is already linked somewhere else, the link will stay red longer than usual. Some long-running scripts will have to be stopped.

  • There will be a code freeze for the week of 18 April.

No non-essential code deployments will take place.

This test was originally planned to take place on March 22. April 19th and 21st are the new dates. You can read the schedule at They will post any changes on that schedule. There will be more notifications about this. Please share this information with your community. /User:Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 21:08, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

This is over. If you found any problems, please let me know. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:12, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
And it's all been switched back to the Virginia servers, somewhat faster and definitely with fewer surprises. Again, if you see any problems, please {{ping}} me. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:26, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Couple of things about the visual editor[edit]

Hi, everyone. I've got a couple of things that I want to run past you.

First: if you haven't looked in Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-betafeatures for a while, then you might want to turn on the visual editor, and if you work on multiple wikis, then try "enhanced notifications", too. (That's the "let me know here, if someone pings me at Commons" tool.)

Next: The visual editor is pretty awesome for some kinds of editing (especially tables), and I think you should consider getting it turned on by default, rather than in Beta Features. On average, half of the new editors are using it by preference, and people running edit-a-thons and training programs tell me that it is far and away the preference among new editors there. It pretty much works like a rich-text e-mail editor, or editing a word processing document. This means that "improve the article" involves "clicking Edit and editing" rather than "clicking Edit and trying to learn wikitext". I think you'll be happy with the results.

Related to that: mw:Design Research is looking for experienced editors (hundreds or thousands of edits to any project, probably more than a year old) who haven't used the visual editor before (or at least not much/not recently). The usual setup is a scheduled video chat via Google Hangout on Air (or maybe Skype?) for 30 to 60 minutes, in English. To run the visual editor, you'll need to have a reasonably modern web browser (>95% of you already do) and to have Javascript turned on. They're mostly focused on the Wikipedias, but it might be good to broaden their horizons. 😉 If anyone's interested, please let me know. A note on my talk page or an e-mail message would be great. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:57, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

What needs to be done to "get the visual editor turned on by default"? I assumed Wikimedia would do that when they felt it was ready - is there something each wiki is expected to do? -- Ryan • (talk) • 19:20, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
When the Visual Editor was initially introduced, it was turned on by default on various wikis (Wikipedia in particular). At the time it was quite clearly not ready for the world - very slow, not able to edit one section without editing the entire page, rather braindead in its handling of tables and templates. The backlash to that move left us with the odd "edit" and "edit source" links as damage control. I'm not sure I want to revisit this? K7L (talk) 19:38, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
If I understand correctly, only users with the beta "visual editor" feature enabled see "edit / edit source". If I view a page anonymously I just see "edit" and it uses the wiki source editor, not the visual editor. Ideally it should not be necessary to enable a beta feature in order to give users the choice between editing wiki text or using the visual editor. -- Ryan • (talk) • 19:52, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
I have just used the visual editor to make a couple of edits to Wrocław, fixing broken links. The editor looks better than it did a year or so ago when I tried it on WP, but needs some work before being good for WV. It needs some customisation, like we have for the regular editor, to remove cite and add buttons for inserting listings. Clicking on a listing brings up a template editor which is poor compared to our listing editor. AlasdairW (talk) 21:27, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
It also screwed up the ordering and positioning of the fields in the listing templates: for example look for "Museum of Architecture" or "Novocaina" (see diff). 11:13, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
I have also used it to edit Aberdeen and Kilcreggan, and when I reviewed the differences I noticed what looked like extra changes. Although it is a nice feature to have, and is good for fixing dead links because the template's message appears in yellow, I do think that some work is needed before it is turned on my default. It is not available for articles in the Wikivoyage space, so I couldn't use the Wikivoyage:Graffiti wall to try things, and this edit had to be made using the source editor. AlasdairW (talk) 21:01, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Issues with Visual Editor[edit]

I thought that I would start a list of issues with the visual editor on Wikivoyage, beginning with those that I have seen in the past couple of days. Don't take the length of the list as an overall comment on the editor. Please add to the list as you find things. AlasdairW (talk) 22:35, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

  1. Customisation for Wikivoyage as needed, similar to that in place for the source editor, removing features rarely used like cite and adding listing template buttons for See etc.
  2. The order of entries in a listing is sometimes changed when that field is unchanged, showing spurious differences.
  3. There is no obvious way of cancelling an edit.
  4. When edit is selected for a section, the complete article is opened for editing. Edit summaries may give the wrong section for the edit as a result (e.g. an edit may start in the Eat section, but also make changes to Sleep, and by default the summary would be Eat).
  5. Editing listings is awkward - maybe it could use our normal listings editor.
  6. The table of contents links in the pagebanner appear during edits, but don't do anything.


Ryan, yes, the basic process is that the WMF turns it on. However, they don't want to just surprise everyone, and they definitely want to know whether it works well first. For example, I tend to agree with the suggestion above to kill the Cite button. The automagic mw:Citoid service is awesome, but it's not relevant. Changing the "default" means that you don't have to personally opt-in to it in your preferences. (All logged-in editors would still be able to opt out.) Also, although it's probably not necessary for a smaller wiki like this, it's possible to change the default for logged-in editors and IPs on different dates. They've done that at most of the large Wikipedias, to give editors a chance to get used to it.

K7L, there's a new feature that lets you choose whether to have two tabs ("Edit" and "Edit source") or just one ("Edit") that does whatever you want it to do. It's currently visible at the Wikisources, Wiktionaries, and three Wikipedias: hywiki, plwiki, and enwiki. Most existing editors are leaving the default setting, which is a single tab that opens whichever editing environment they used last – which, for most of them, is the wikitext editor. At the Hungarian and Polish Wikipedias, the visual editor is the primary editing environment, so IPs get that first (with a button to switch to wikitext). At the English Wikipedia, the wikitext editor is primary, so IPs get that.

AlasdairW, I really appreciate your testing and starting this list, and I hope that you and others will expand it. The template editor depends upon TemplateData, which half the listing templates don't have yet. It strictly follows the order of the parameters in the TemplateData, so if the order isn't what you want, it will definitely get it wrong. (I assume the order should be what the current listing editor does). Given how few templates we have here, and how frequently the listing templates are used, I do not believe that VisualEditor should be offered to by default unless and until that has been fixed.

I can ask to have it turned on for the [[Wikivoyage:]] namespace if you would like to use it in the sandbox. This could probably be done as soon as next week, if we make the request (in Phab:) soon. It's not really designed for comments on pages like this (e.g., no support for association lists, and therefore no ability to use half of that listing style to indent comments), but it's possible to add a normal signature, and you could edit any page in the namespace. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:45, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Update: I've got two requests in the system now.
The first is about getting quicker access to the listing templates. A Wikipedia editor suggested a drop-down menu on the toolbar; what do you think of that idea?
The second is to move the Cite button out of the main toolbar, and into the "Insert" menu (just in case anyone wants to edit the Dutch phrasebook, which currently uses two ref tags). There are a couple of other Wikivoyages that seem to use footnotes more often. If anyone knows a bit more about those Wikiovoyages, I'd be happy to hear whether this will work for you, too.
I haven't filed a request to have the visual editor enabled for the [[Wikivoyage:]] namespace yet (it'd let you edit the sandbox, among other pages). I thought I should wait until someone actually agreed to that idea. We can't enable it for the sandbox alone; it's everything in a namespace, or nothing. It is available in the User: namespace, so you could always use User:Whatamidoing (WMF)/sandbox as a place for testing. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:57, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

DotM attention banner?[edit]

Again many of the articles nominated for a month on the Main Page could use more voyagers to check them through/support them on the nominations page, in particular five out of six upcoming travel topics would need some more support votes.

However, this is not the first time this happens, we seem to have the same problem every couple of months. When the issue is brought up here in the pub voyagers do come and help out with the nominated articles, but 2-3 months later we are back at square one as the next bunch of articles are in need of more attention…

To avoid having to start a thread here in the pub every time this problem arises, I suggest putting a banner on the top of the pages (along the lines of the "We will be performing server maintenance..." banner that's up as I'm writing this) whenever, say, more than half of the articles in the table need more support. What do you think? ϒpsilon (talk) 13:32, 21 April 2016 (UTC)


Sealand was recently merged to Felixstowe by User:Traveler100, but I'm not sure it was the right move. The listed reason for a merge was "no place to stay", but that's simply not true. Sealand is a place, where people sleep. Just because there are no commercial hotels doesn't mean it fails the "sleep there" test. Sealand is likely more well-known than Felixstowe, and in fact I'm not even sure why Felixstowe is even involved; is it the nearest settlement? It just seems odd to redirect a place that people might actually search for to a place most people have never heard of. Powers (talk) 02:08, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

A merge is certainly not appropriate in this case. Furthermore, given how often the sleep test is misapplied, I think it may be time to look at making some edits to wiaa to really drive the point home that the lack of any hotels, etc. doesn't actually preclude a place from getting its own article. Frankly, I'd go so far as to ask whether the sleep test muddies the waters too much to be worthwhile and whether maybe we should look at other analogies for the dividing like between what kind of place does/does not get its own article. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:50, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
People sleep at my house and yours I would assume, but I see nothing on the Sealand web site to say members of the public and stay there or even visit the platform and no places to buy food. The web site just appears to be a fund raising and merchandising site so that the current occupiers can maintain it and live there. Did not appear to me to be a place for travellers to stay. Yes it deserves an article on Wikipedia, but on Wikivoyage is it more than a See attraction? --Traveler100 (talk) 06:51, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
I'm going to support dropping the sleep test or at least fixing wiaa. It only seems to create ambiguity as it stands.
Sealand is a unique destination, and not (in a simple sense) part of the British mainland and so should not have been merged. I'd say that it should be created again. The article is only as tenuous as the place itself. Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:53, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
Would this not just open up the flood gates for articles on places such as Freistaat Flaschenhals (which does have places to stay and eat), and a number of forts and castles in Europe (which can be visited), as well as privately owned plots of land and islands around the world? I think these are better handled as See listings or mentioned in Other destinations in the appropriate region article. --Traveler100 (talk) 08:12, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
Check out Bir Tawil , an interesting travel location with no infrastructure whatsoever :) --Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:27, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
Well if you are intrepid enough, and not risk averse, you can camp in Bir Tawil. My point with Sealand is that it is just a structure with now (Bates dies in 2012) some private individuals trying to earn money from a website. --Traveler100 (talk) 08:41, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
Sealand is a former offshore fort, similar to a small offshore oil platform. It was occupied in the 1960s, and has made claims of being a country, but this has not been seriously recognised by any other country or the UN (there are some claims of recognition). It appears that when the article was created, visits were possible (visits may have stopped before the article date), but the website now says that visas are not issued. I recently saw a report about it on TV, and they did allow a journalist to visit, but there appeared to be only one occupant, and there were clearly no facilities for visitors. I think that merging it was probably not a good idea, and either delete or leave as a "can't visit at the moment" outline. AlasdairW (talk) 20:52, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
So with respect to [wiaa], basically I would like to make a distinction between destinations that are better merged up to the nearest town to help the traveler (i.e. Hamlet X should be merged into nearby Town Y), and unique destinations such as Sealand that are obviously not general travel destinations and also do not fall under an obvious hierarchy. Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:00, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
Ah yes, Hamlet X. "To be or not to be, that is the question..." K7L (talk) 00:50, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
I chuckled. Though this does seem to be a serious issue... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:06, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
I think that we should not usually try to merge islands (which Sealand is ignoring the "country" issue). It is usually straightforward to sleep in Town Y and visit the sights in Hamlet X or vice versa. Unless there is a bridge between them staying in one island and visiting another can be difficult and require planning of ferry times, even if the two islands are yards apart. AlasdairW (talk) 22:41, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
So what if we stumble across a thousand islands, do we write an article for each? Some of them are only reachable by cruising on small craft and quite a few hold little more than an individual cottage. Montréal or Manhattan, on the other hand... K7L (talk) 01:45, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
This is where the 'can you sleep there' test really helps. If you're going to stay there a few days, then you'd like an article on the island. If you're going to stay in a nearby town, and just visit the islands, then we don't give them an article. Sealand is a very special case. There may be a good reason for doing away with the 'can you sleep there' test after all this time, but this shouldn't be it. --Inas (talk) 05:05, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

How to kindly request to consider merging existing article to new article of larger scope?[edit]

Archipelago Sea should IMO be merged to Sailing in Finland. but {{merge}} doesn't seem the right template to give people time to digest this move. --Jukeboksi (talk) 20:50, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Not sure what the problem is with the merge tag. Would place the merge tag on the Archipelago Sea and the {{Merge from}} on the Sailing in Finland page. On the first page's talk page please explain why you think they should be merged and not kept separate, as it does on first inspection not make sense to me? Then leave it a few week if you think people need time to digest. --Traveler100 (talk) 21:45, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

A podcast about Wikivoyage[edit]

For those of you who enjoy listening to podcasts, AndreCarrotflower and I both took part in an episode about Wikivoyage and travel writing for the Source Code Berlin podcast (associated with Wikimedia Deutschland). I invite you guys to listen, maybe leave some feedback, and enjoy! PerryPlanet (talk) 21:08, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Thank you! - Matroc (talk) 13:45, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
Good podcast. Maybe it will even draw an eyeball or two to our project... Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:21, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
Listening to it right now. It's good advertising for WV, so let's hope as many people as possible stumble upon it. Thumbs up to Andre and Perry. :) ϒpsilon (talk) 19:12, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
When listening, please bear in mind that I don't lisp like that in real life. It was a bad Skype connection. :) -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:00, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
Hi there, it's so much fun listening to you ;) Thanks! Danapit (talk) 20:04, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
I, on the other hand, frequently do sound that hyper and stuttering, especially when I start getting enthusiastic about something. ;) PerryPlanet (talk) 01:25, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
Thanks to Andre and Perry for contributing, and the producers for a very polished podcast. Nicely done, hopefully it garners some attention for the project. -- Ryan • (talk) • 03:35, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Jinotega lost a lot of pictures[edit]

Besides the problems with this guide we had discussed earlier, it has now lost a lot of pictures due to copyright issues. What should we do? Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:13, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

There's not much you can do other than find additional photos on Commons, search Flickr for CC-compatible images to upload to Commons, or physically go there to take photos. Anyway, even as it is now the article still contains three photos, which is less than it might have but not problematic per se. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:15, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
I'd definitely spread out those pictures we still have within the article. Powers (talk) 15:40, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
The article also seems to confuse the city itself and the "departamento" Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:08, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Adding traveller routers and carsharing and ridesharing services information from Consum(er)ium[edit]

How would one go about the task of incorporating this content?

--Jukeboksi (talk) 14:46, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure we want Wikivoyage turned into this sort of link farm? We link to the official site for each individual {{listing}} but otherwise links tend to be used sparingly or not at all. Hotel price aggregators in particular is just one long list of links to travel middlemen or encyclopaedia articles, which looks ugly and not very useful. If a hotel or venue is worth listing, we list it here ourselves. K7L (talk) 01:34, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Need for "connection" and "event" item types in Wikivoyage + semantic wikivoyage[edit]

For Wikivoyage in general I totally recommend using new items:

  1. Connection describes the two locations and the properties of the connection. Makes sense to link 2x instructions on "get to the port/station" and "get from the port/station but write these only once and maintain the master link at Municipality#Getting to and from the bus/train station Can be natural connection i.e. border crossing to neighboring entity via road or highway in car or man made: airplane, ferry, train, bus etc.
  2. Event describes a thing to do with a start timedate and end timedate plus the rest of {{do}}, {{eat}} and {{buy}} have. Then when added Semantic database consisting among other thigns of subject-predicate-object w:Triplestore would be possible to compile calendars like
  • "Get all me events sorted chronologically form this and all neighboring entities (and optionally also their neighbours) for some timeframe."
  • "Find me all the events in places east of 24° 00,0’E that are in Finland and have a guest marina."
  • "Make me a calendar of events in Finland where type=Film festival."
  • etc.etc.

Read more:

ps. Coming up is a post on description of transport networks as directed graph networks derived from sets of semantic descriptions. Instead of mentioning a permutation of times "there is bus/train/air/sea/road link to Y" in X and likewise. You just define possible nodes in (navigator that is road intersections) and make a linked list which is then incorporated into the directed graph network representation. Jukeboksi (talk) 10:12, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

I am a bit sceptical about the Connection type of item. (Although I'm not quite sure I understand correctly what you describe) This presumes that the information on both article is identical, but this is not always the case. For instance let's say we have a connection between a big city Paris#By_train and a small city Rennes. In the Paris article, there are so many connection, that it would be bothersome to have details to all of them, it would make the section very long and hard to navigate. On the Rennes article however you would have more space and it would make sense to put in things like travel time, ticket prices etc. Drat70 (talk) 00:55, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
To show how to get from A to B in article B, which I think you are trying to address with the connect idea, then consider the {{Routebox}} template which is near the bottom of many pages. Can show not just roads but also bus, train and ship routes. Advantage is that in one line it show next and previous destination and first and last destination on a route, which is more useful than just A to B. As for {{event}}, the template already exists. At the moment only a couple of hundred pages use this, would be great if you could expand its uses. My intention was that once widely used we could investigate how to make a database from the content and create calendar and search tools. If you know some good ways to achieve that please set up some test pages. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:11, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
I've been trying to match Wikidata properties to fields in the most common Wikivoyage templates. I don't see a good {{routebox}} equivalent there; d:P197 lists the "next station" on a rail line, but that's not necessarily the next city or next Wikivoyage destination - often, it returns a suburban commuter train station in the same city. For roads, the choices are even more limited; d:P1302 is just a list of cities in no particular order or position. Most of our local events are in {{do}} listings, often as an ===Events=== subsection of ==Do==. The {{event}} template only differs from other {{listing}} types by specifying event dates - the rest of the fields are the same as any other activity listing. You may want to look at d:Wikidata:Wikivoyage/Resources and the discussions currently open on d:Wikidata:Property proposal/Sister projects‎ as the task of fitting the existing (at best, partially-structured) Wikivoyage template data into any sort of semantic data structure still poses a few obstacles - {{quickbar}} and its counterparts in other languages are fairly straightforward (except for the bits on language and religion) but the hours and prices in {{listing}} are proving awkward and a structured approach has not yet been decided. K7L (talk) 16:24, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Template:User en-5 of babel combinations missing[edit]

Seems [[Template:User en-5]] is missing of the [[Template:Babel]] combinations. Somebody forget to import it form the 'pedia? Jukeboksi (talk) 23:11, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

We don't use -5 babel templates. You can see the full list at Wikivoyage:Babel. We already have six levels for each language (0-4, plus native); is that not enough? Powers (talk) 00:03, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. Template:User en-4 works. Jukeboksi (talk) 00:10, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Can we please address our "bodies of water" policy one way or the other?[edit]

I know I am kind of droning on about this and it may even be getting on the nerves of some editors, but please have a look at this issue that is still not resolved (there is a dormant vfd on one of the involved parts). I really do not care either way how this is resolved, I would even be fine with the policy being gutted entirely and both articles being kept, but the current situation is confusing, illogical and just too complicated for anybody to understand. I would really like to hear your opinions what we should do. The status quo is - in my humble opinion - not sustainable. It will by no means break the wiki, but it does not help her. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:48, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

There is the Wikivoyage:Cruising Expedition. I do not know how relevant that is for the Bodensee dilemma. The project page is dormant, but there is some development e.g. through Cruising on small craft, Sailing in Finland and Archipelago Sea. Information on cruising on small (and large) craft can be and is included in many destination articles (Get in and Get around By boat) and travel topics about bodies of water are allowed. If we get enough momentum to attract boaters, we probably need a change in policy. How to change it is unclear until we get some best practices. For now, having the bodies of water described as (extra)regions, travel topics and itineraries is no real problem, I think, as long as this route is clearly pointed out to newcomers. --LPfi (talk) 12:09, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Quy Nhon, Vietnam: Star Nomination[edit]

I'd like to nominate the article Quy Nhon for a star. I think it's an amazing article. Fun, lively, and very, very informative. It exceeds all the star criteria and compares very favorably to star articles we've read and used.

It has two wonderfully-detailed maps, both of which are better than anything on the internet (it's crazy, but as the article itself says, all the other maps are just wrong, including Google maps). The prose is effective and enjoyable (trust me, it hooked us into driving hundreds of miles out of our way to visit; now THAT's effectiveness!). The prose is effective, well-written and easy to read, and the grammar seems very good to me. The photos are informative and quite beautiful.

Having just visited the city, I can confirm that the listings are spot-on. And the history section gives context which is unavailable elsewhere; it's the best and only good source on the internet about Quy Nhon's history.

I posted more on the Quy Nhon talk page and the star nomination page. I also put a nomination on the article's banner. Please tell me if I should do anything else. Thank you. Linda Beth 123 (talk) 03:24, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Nice article indeed. How about adding latitude/longitude to all listings? Cheers! Syced (talk) 11:58, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
Also, the two banners have low definition. You can see that the picture has been scaled up. Syced (talk) 12:05, 9 May 2016 (UTC)


Dear all,

I will be arriving by plane to Frankfurt on May 19 and I plan to make a one-day trip to Erfurt on that occasion. Since I wouldn't want to lose time by getting first to my Frankfurt hotel to leave my luggage and then return to the Train Station, my question is the following: is there any luggage storage at the Frankfurt Airport Train Station? Or at the Erfurt Train Station? Or where can I leave my luggage in safety for a few hours, other than the hotel? Thank you in advance,


Please ask questions like this on Wikivoyage:Tourist office.
The Airport train station doesn't appear to have left luggage, but Erfurt sation has lockers (Schließfächer). You may need coins to use a locker. AlasdairW (talk) 14:02, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
In all cases I know of, train stations in Germany have lockers that can only be accessed by paying coins, if they have lockers at all. At any rate, unless you have booked your ticket (s) already, rail and fly might diminish your time at Frankfurt airport station, as it includes a flexible ticket and ICE should be running along that route at least once an hour. Have a nice and safe trip. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:59, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

There are luggage storage drop off places in Frankfurt Airport. --Traveler100 (talk) 19:33, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Fort McMurray[edit]

Super 8, Fort McMurray

Our page on Fort McMurray is suddenly getting 100-150 page views daily, up from almost nothing, due to the current wildfire situation. At some point we're going to need to determine which of these places are still standing, but at the moment that's a moving target. K7L (talk) 13:00, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Back down to about 10 per day, which is more than before the fires but not much. Powers (talk) 01:12, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Link for cities: official city site or tourist office site?[edit]

For Japan pages, most of/all the links for the cities (at the beginning at the article, after the name of the city) point to the official (and general purpose) website for the city. Wouldn't it better to have the link to the official tourism site instead (when there is one)? I wonder if it has been done on purpose or by default. In French Wikivoyage we put both (the information is in an infobox of the top-right of the page). Edit: note that this solution is not perfect: sometimes there are two tourism websites (for example the tourism site of the city, and the site of the tourism association) — Fabimaru (talk) 10:02, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

The tourism site, if such exists. If there is no tourism site at all, the "normal" city website can be added instead of it, if it contains at least something that may be of interest to travelers (e.g. information about public buses, location of tourist office). In the case that the normal city website is completely useless for non-locals, then the region or the country perhaps has a visitor's website with a section about the destination.
If there are two websites, the tourism site of the city should go to the top of the page. Then add a subsection called "Tourist office" in Understand, put a listing there with the tourist office's/tourism association's contact information including their website. ϒpsilon (talk) 10:27, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
Thanks a lot, this policy makes sense for me. I wondered if there was some insinuation (like not putting the tourism site because it would mean pointing on an "external guide"). Note for Japan pages contributors: you may want to have a look a the French pages for the tourism sites guides, I put them for a good number of pages (most major cities). — Fabimaru (talk) 10:55, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Wikidata item - correction needed[edit]

Wikidata item for Sagar India is incorrect - Wikidata Entry ID should be Q1006355 -- not Q502675 which is for Krauschwitz in Germany... (Is there a better place to post this? Was not able to correct the 2 Wikidata records - thanks!) Matroc (talk) 01:43, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

I deleted the entry for Krauschwitz and added an entry for Sagar, so it should be fixed now. -- Ryan • (talk) • 02:33, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
Thank you! -- Matroc (talk) 03:11, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Da russkies stole Crimea[edit] is a direct rip-off of our Crimea article.

There is one revision (12:06, 21 мая 2014‎) in ?action=history and no proper attribution. (The corresponding edit here is 09:06 UTC, 21 May 2014‎.) They've basically posted an entire database dump, without the revision history. No mention of CC-BY-SA, no edit history other than the one last revision as of whenever they plagiarised this.

Their "privacy" link points to Wikimedia's privacy policy and the "disclaimer" points to (a redlink, they treat the Wikivoyage: prefix as an interwiki link instead of project space?).

Are we keeping track of these or protesting to the United Nations or something? Russia shouldn't be able to just march in and steal Crimea from us.

I know WP had a "Wikipedia:Forks and mirrors" that was tracking this sort of stuff, do we? K7L (talk) 14:06, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Wikivoyage:List of content re-users and info at Wikivoyage:Non-compliant redistribution. Nurg (talk) 09:46, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. It looks like the list is buried on the talk page, Wikivoyage talk:Non-compliant redistribution, for some reason? K7L (talk) 13:47, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Looking at stuff like this they seem to have just copied WV content at some past point in time and not followed our updates since. There seems to be no attribution in any place and as I don't speak Russian I cannot communicate with whoever is behind this site... If they did point back to us, they'd do no harm, right? Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:16, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

As long as the pointers were systematic -- that is, on every article, pointing directly to our article or article history. Powers (talk) 01:14, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Link decay for foreign-language website versions[edit]

Many museums and other venues have official web sites, with a foreign-language version on a more apocryphic URL. The foreign-language URL tend to move around a lot. For example, the Swedish Natural History Museum has the brief domain with an English version which moved from to causing a dead link in the Stockholm/Östermalm article. Should we make the pages more sustainable by including the general domain name instead, when it has a direct link to the English version? /Yvwv (talk) 16:33, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

This issue is addressed to some extent at Wikivoyage:External links#Languages and also the "short readable link" section on that page. As the policy page describes, it's somewhat of a judgement call as to what link to choose since it's preferable to link to English language pages, but also preferable not to link to a URL that's likely to change often. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:45, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
I doubt we can avoid all of the link rot. Hotel chains are prone to URLs like for individual locations. We presumably want to link directly the individual property, not Big Hotel Chain's corporate brand home page. If that breaks the link the next time the franchisor redesigns their site, so be it; often the franchise site is the only web presence so we have to use it. K7L (talk) 17:12, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
On a related note, I don't think we should link to individual lines or connections. At all. Like for example trying to like to departures for a train from Berlin to Hamburg. Or for a specific subway line in Berlin. Those tend to be humongous links as well and also subject to frequent change. Named trains with their own official pages are of course a different story, but I have seen some strange links that are very prone to rot in articles on some German cities... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:32, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Northern Vietnam thread[edit]

An article on Ha Giang Province in northeastern Vietnam has been created and is being developed, but no-one has explained why Northern Vietnam should be subdivided into subregions for the convenience of travelers, or if so, which ones and how many. Nor are there any links from the Ha Giang article to articles for "Cities" or "Other destinations" in the province. Please look at the thread on Talk:Northern Vietnam and see if you can help us make organizational sense out of this all. Everyone should appreciate the initiative that was taken to plunge forward and create the Ha Giang article, and now we need to figure out how best to use the article and/or the information in it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:33, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

This mess still isn't close to resolution. Would someone please help? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:24, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Cross wiki notifications will be released by default on May 12 at 23:00 UTC.[edit]


Cross wiki notifications will be released by default on all wikis on May 12 at 23:00 UTC

During the beta phase, the cross-wiki notifications feature was enabled by over 18,000 accounts across more than 360 wikis. We receive great feedback from a lot of very happy users. After that 3-months long beta period during which we made adjustments and that feature is now ready for a release by default.

Users who don't want to receive cross-wiki notifications will be able to turn them off on their preferences on each wiki. If you haven't activated Cross-wiki Notifications during the Beta phase, you may receive old unread notifications from other wikis.

More information is available on the documentation. The talk page is still open for any questions or feedback, in any language.

All the best, Trizek (WMF) (talk) 16:50, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Statistics for most read articles?[edit]

Are there statistics for how often different articles are read? And which articles are the most read during a period? /Yvwv (talk) 13:36, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

I vaguely remember having looked at such statistics somewhere two years ago or so, so I googled "wikivoyage statistics". [2] seems to have statistics for WMF projects including Wikivoyage, however they seem to have some problem there right now. Nothing loads, including the Wikivoyage stats page. ϒpsilon (talk) 14:56, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
We used to discuss (official?) statistics in unregular intervals, but they have always produced questionable results if you ask me... Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:11, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
Pageviews at, eg, Nurg (talk) 10:44, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Wikidata again[edit]

Working with Wikidata is an idea that's been kicked around since 2013, but never quite caught on. So far, it's used widely for pagebanners and interwiki links, but not much else. Retrieving info for individual {{listing}}s or {{quickbar}} fields has been proposed but not implemented; a couple of languages (de, fr) provide a d= or wikidata= field in their listings (which might display a clickable link) but don't seem to use it to run database lookups.

Pity. Ultimately, the idea was that Wikidata could be used to look up listing fields (lat, long, name, address, image...) by some automated means (maybe a 'bot script or a listing editor function; they also might be of use on dynamic maps).

I've made an attempt to update the list at d:Wikidata:Wikivoyage/Resources#Properties for listings to match Wikidata properties to individual {{listing}} fields in various languages. (Some have extra fields we don't use here, like star ratings 'estrellas' in Spanish or wi-fi availability in French. I haven't looked at any of the languages with non-Western character sets. Certainly, now that these are templates instead of WT-style tags, new fields are popping up in many individual-language editions and they don't always match across languages.)

Many of the most common fields already have a corresponding Wikidata property. The rest have been proposed for creation and are stranded at various points in the process. Our hotel/motel/B&B checkin/checkout times are stranded at d:Wikidata:Property proposal/Pending#Awaiting time type with precision second, seemingly for want of a Wikidata data type for a standalone "time of day" with no date attached. Many of the other fields (hours, pricerange...) are languishing at d:Wikidata:Property_proposal/Sister projects#Wikivoyage either for lack of examples or because someone wants to force a structure on an item where the underlying data is widely variable (such as hours= which are different every day of the week, vary seasonally and are different for different pieces of the same establishment (hotel with restaurant and bar might keep pouring drinks long after the kitchen closes for the night).

These need feedback while they're still open for discussion. Could you look at d:Wikidata:Property proposal/Sister projects#Wikivoyage and d:Wikidata:Property proposal/Pending to comment or add any information that's missing from the proposals? K7L (talk) 20:10, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Migrating quickbars to Wikidata doesn't seem to be that complicated. One of the reasons for the lack of progress is the out-dated Module:Wikibase. I think we should import w:Module:Wikidata and all its dependencies. Does anybody have experiences with mass-importing lua modules? -- T.seppelt (talk) 20:32, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
Some notes:
wikidata= as a field in Template listing - already exists
The interworkings of a Lua Module either standalone or with templates etc. can be very tricky - Lua Modules generally get processed after a page has been processed... In many cases it is necessary to use "safesubst:" which forces the Lua Module to do its work and finalize results before the page gets processed. (The #invoke for the Module essentially no longer exists - just the results)
It is generally possible to build initial template codes we all know and love which in turn would require being edited further by hand.
Lua Modules have been used to create "geo" templates - retrieving lat/long coordinates etc.
Agree that Lua Modules have not been used or implemented in wikivoyage to a great extent.
Wikidata itself is incomplete and its properties wanting -- ie. description property for an article in Wikidata for example is "a city" - hardly enough for a listing or quick box - Larger content descriptions for listings would not exist - many properties one might desire for a quickbox are also missing such as electricity.
Who (bot?) is going to find and add the Wikidata identifier (Qnnn) for each listing's "wikidata=" field.
Lua Modules do have machine processing limits - something else be aware of.
Though many things could probably be accomplished with Lua Modules and Wikidata, I would suggest achieving one goal at a time. Matroc (talk) 17:01, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
The list of Wikidata fields to match the most common WV templates (listing, marker, quickbar, fr:Info Ville, Info Parc, Info Region, geo and mapframe) is d:Wikidata:Wikivoyage/Resources#Properties for listings. Many already exist; fr:'s version of quickbar (Info Pays) already defaults a few fields to the Wikidata record if they're not specified locally. Electricity (as a quickbar field) is missing but has been proposed at d:Wikidata:Property proposal/Sister projects#Wikivoyage, along with many of the other "missing" fields. That still leaves the issue of how to populate all of these fields, if and when they're created; "hours" and "price" are likely to be the problem children as they're currently unstructured free-form text which won't translate easily. Much of the information currently in Wikidata was copied there by 'bots, usually harvesting it from template fields in the corresponding Wikipedia article's info box. Certainly {{listing}} is going to be more difficult, largely because d:wikidata:arbitrary access is "expensive" in server time and much data in our existing listings is in plain-text fields which would need to be translated before they could be re-used elsewhere. It might be possible to add the Wikidata item with some sort of automated script if there's a unique identifier which could be used to match the entries; for instance, a local telephone number matches a number in a listing in the same city in some other-language Wikivoyage, which has wikipedia= linked from its listings, and from that language's WP we can find a d:Q##### record. Not easy, and most of our listings simply don't have (and won't have) Wikidata entries unless and until they get enough notability to get an article in at least one Wikimedia project (likely the WP for that country's home language). That makes using this for quickbars much easier than getting the listings. Then again, many of the same arguments could have been made to state that getting (lat, long) co-ordinates into individual listings is a mammoth task and we're nowhere near having a locator map for every destination. Indeed, but one must start somewhere. K7L (talk) 15:46, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
I'm working on a Wikidata lookup that could be integrated into the listing editor that would work the same as the search typeahead (type a few letters, suggested results show up). As you've noted there is concern about having too many Wikidata items in use on a page as improper usage could result in excessive lookups and parsing, but I would expect lookup performance to improve as Wikidata is more widely used, and we could do some basic testing to see if something like lat/long lookups using {{#property:P625|from=Q3699364}} was currently feasible. -- Ryan • (talk) • 17:07, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
Wonderful! Really looking forward to that Wikidata lookup field in the listing editor :-) Syced (talk) 07:21, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Maps with extra layers on en-Wikivoyage[edit]

Thanks to the amazing work by JGirault (WMF) (talk, contribs), the new <mapframe> and <maplink> maps on English Wikivoyage now support external layers and all other wikivoyage article links just like the wmflabs-based maps! I saw some cool maps experiments done by Matroc (talk, contribs) on their page, and copied a portion of it above. I will now try to adapt current community's templates (without modifying the originals just yet), so that the {{see}} and others can be used directly with the new map. As always, feedback is highly welcome. --Yurik (talk) 19:25, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

CC from previous relevant conversations: AlasdairW, Andrewssi2, Atsirlin, FredTC, Ibaman, JamesA, JuliasTravels, Matroc, MaxSem, Mey2008, Pnorman, Seav, Shaundd, Syced, TheDJ, TheTrolleyPole, Torty3, WhatamIdoing, Wrh2.
Thank you! Yurik - Adding the external layers has made that map look 100% better... - It is also very nice to allow multiple maps on an article page (definitely something various users wanted) - The hard part will be to adapt current templates to go probably through some POI script. - Some of the maps on my home page were created using a Lua Module and data from Wikidata, saved and then edited... I am sure there is more to come that will make life easier and cause little code confusion - again, Thank you for these milestones and your hard work. -- Matroc (talk) 22:39, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

P.S. Take a look at the first migration attempt. I only changed the underlying templates, and left the page same as original. Some minor styling is still required, plus at some point I hope it will be possible to add an item from Wikidata. Feel free to modify it if needed. --Yurik (talk) 06:24, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Some remarks:
  • There seem to be two full screen buttons (one top-right and one below the +/- buttons).
  • The layers-button shows "Mapquest open" and just "MapQuest". This last one displays nothing (when zoomed in).
  • When using the top-right "Full screen" button, the map is displayed full screen. However there is no indication about how to leave the full screen mode.
The close button is behind the layers button - just the edge of it shows for now -- Matroc (talk) 16:07, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
--FredTC (talk) 12:09, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
FredTC, we just need to fix the popup text. The button shows nearby wikivoyage articles. --Yurik (talk) 19:21, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
Yurik, it's awesome. What is the source for Mapnik and Mapquest? --Alexander (talk) 14:32, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
Alexander, those layers are exactly the same functionality as exists at the moment at Wikivoyage, so it was simply copied from the wmflabs that was created by the community. This data is not under WMF control, and moreover, users have to agree to expose their browsing activity to the 3rd party. --Yurik (talk) 19:21, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
Very interesting. Can this display type-specific Aiga restaurant.svg or Aiga bar.svg map symbols for points of interest, like our current fork-plate-knife for eateries, martini glass for drink and house for lodging? Do we have control over what's displayed in the pop-up bubble when the POI's are clicked, perhaps using a template? If a {{listing}} has a corresponding Wikidata item, can clicking the POI marker trigger a lookup to display information extracted from the item? K7L (talk) 15:04, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
Yuri can correct me on this, but I believe that the default icon set we have available at the moment is the public domain licensed Maki icon set made by Mapbox. As for pop-up content, templates can be included (see my goofy mockup), but I'm not sure on the Wikidata part. Yurik! :) CKoerner (WMF) (talk) 18:57, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
At the moment we can only show pushpins with any of the maki icons as Chris mentioned above, in 3 different sizes and any color. Eventually I hope we will be able to show other marker symbols, but sadly for the moment that's the limitation. --Yurik (talk) 19:21, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
The button called "Show in full screen" actually is a button that shows all POIs, I guess the button's name should be changed to "Show all listings" or something similar? Thanks a lot :-) Syced (talk) 06:36, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
Syced, It does not show all POIs, it shows all Wikivoyage articles. I think we should hide all other layers when the user clicks that button to reduce confusion. --Yurik (talk) 19:21, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Unusual travel activities...[edit]

Posted this a while back -

And never got any feedback :( ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:46, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

I think these "unusual activities" should be added case-by-case in the relevant geographical article. Make sure the activity is always available, for instance getting in a movie production as an extra is interesting if the opportunity is available most of the time and not too difficult to get into. Cheers! :-) Syced (talk) 02:23, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
Already added a comment about the British "shoot" in recreational shooting for example, but some of the other things might need the assistance of other contributors, Like for example
  • how much Silverstone costs to do a lap on and so on?
  • Do classy US hotels do the full Afternoon tea , at a price?
  • Do you need an insurance waiver for a rodeo weekend?

(and so on)... Sfan00 IMG (talk) 08:15, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Balochi phrasebook[edit]

Anyone with the knowledge to expand this article, at least make it an outline? New user started but failed to continue the work. --Traveler100 (talk) 18:04, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Switching {{Quickbar}} to Wikidata[edit]

Capital Andorra la Vella
Currency Euro
Population 79,218 (2013)
Country code +376
Time zone UTC+01:00, Central European Time, UTC+02:00
Emergencies 112
Driving side right
edit on Wikidata

Hello everyone,

I'm working on a replacement (on the right for Andorra) for {{Quickbar}} which uses Wikidata instead of locally entered information. It's almost ready, I'm only waiting for a property proposal related to the electricity field. What do you think? Could it be deployed like this (after we have the electricity property)?

Warm regards, -- T.seppelt (talk) 14:50, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Full support from me, seems like a great idea. Thanks for working on this. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:25, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
Had done something similar about a year ago though I had added flag, image, bordering countries and description - this I like as it is simpler and less cluttered. -- Go for it! - good exercise. -- Matroc (talk) 19:02, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
Quickbars used to be standard on this site, didn't they? Why did we get rid of them in the first place? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:54, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
We didn't. They should still be on every Country article. Powers (talk) 21:13, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
250+ articles have quickbars (template) - Matroc (talk) 22:04, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
However compared to other language editions they contain much less detail. And some language editions also have them in every city article as well... Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:36, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
It looks great, but I prefer the smaller locator maps we currently use. We've found the quickbars often push more appealing visual content down, so we've kept them as short as possible vertically. Powers (talk) 21:15, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
Hmmm! -- Unfortunately what is in Wikidata is what you will get; be it a map, banner or an image, perhaps it could be resolved by passing arguments to override the map image etc. that is found in Wikidata... Just a thought -- Matroc (talk) 22:25, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
And so raises one of the major issues with using Wikidata for visual information rather than factual information: different projects have different aesthetic and layout needs. Powers (talk) 23:55, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
Local parameters are stil supported. We will be able to decide step by step which information we want from Wikidata. --T.seppelt (talk) 04:22, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I prefer the map in the Andorra example above as it conveys more information than the map currently in use at Andorra, and I like the idea that our locator maps would be consistent with those used at other projects. Insofar as the argument against Wikidata is that it reduces local control, I think the benefits of having the data kept up-to-date and in sync across projects outweighs the disadvantage of not having that info directly editable here, particularly since we can override it locally if needed. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:14, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
Having it "automatically" updated is a bonus as long as the vandals do not find their way to Wikidata. I, at least, have a hard time figuring out which Wikidata edits one should check and which one can trust. I also think pluralism is good, in the cases there are resources to maintain different versions. It is often valuable to be able to check something on other projects, which may use a slightly different definition or other sources, or be more easy for me to understand (cf the two locator maps – I have no problem recognizing Spain, but others may have). --LPfi (talk) 17:54, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
It's all well and good to prefer the large map aesthetically, but fitting it into our articles in a harmonious manner is a different story. As for commonality among projects, English Wikipedia uses a different set of locator maps; these are primarily used in German Wikipedia and a few other low-population Wikipedias. There are several other sets of locator maps, as well. Powers (talk) 20:13, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
Could be a good timing to steal this additional piece of German technology: "It also picks the qualifiers on wikidata for population and it compares your own data with wikidata. So you can activate Wikidata Tools do get a bigger quickbar with additional information like "different altitude on Wikidata" or something like that, including tools to edit Wikidata/the article." Cheers! Syced (talk) 08:17, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Is it worth adding Driving Side? -- WOSlinker (talk) 10:20, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

I added it. I'd like to keep the quickbar as simple as possible. If you want to travel to a country you don't need information about GDP, the president or the unemployment rate. All of our country articles are connected to Wikipedia articles. This is the place we one can get further information. –T.seppelt (talk) 14:02, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
The Plug Type that you were waiting for is now available. -- WOSlinker (talk) 15:34, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
I know. I am actually waiting for d:Wikidata:Property proposal/Sister projects#mains voltage because I'd like to have both the voltage and the plug type in one row as it is in Andorra. Your input would be appreciated at the property proposal discussion, I guess. -- T.seppelt (talk) 07:53, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

one large or many small articles[edit]

I would like some input on recommendations regarding whether it is best to have a number of small location articles or have a single good sized one? This is not a policy discussion but more aesthetics and usefulness to the reader. Take for example Beer, Branscombe and Seaton, all close to one another, is enough attractions to make each a usable article but there is never going to be more than a couple of listings per section. Or Grantchester, is this far enough outside Cambridge (England) and enough information to be its own article? No debate all these settlement are in their own right valid destinations but it is useful to the traveller to click through lots of small articles? --Traveler100 (talk) 12:23, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

I think it's hard to tell if you don't know the place... Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:59, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
One thing to consider is if you sleep in one place would you have dinner in the other. Beer is 1.5 miles from Seaton so walking to have dinner in the other is quite possible. Branscombe is 4 miles away, and some buses between the two go via Sidmouth, which is about 5 miles from Branscombe. So my thought is that Beer could be merged into Seaton. With the name Beer, it may be worth considering how many readers would be looking for an article about the drink, and would they be confused reading about Seaton? I think that I would leave Branscombe as it is, mainly because it is midway between two places it could be merged with, and the distance is probably a little too big to merge in a place with multiple listings. AlasdairW (talk) 22:37, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
I've been struggling with this with Australian articles recently. I guess the question what would you find more useful when visiting? My preference is for a large article covering many smaller places, but not precluding splitting off a smaller location if the quantity of material is large enough. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:26, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
I like the idea of where you would go for diner from where you are staying, useful concept/guideline. On the specific of the example I was thinking of making Beer a disambiguation page. --Traveler100 (talk) 08:04, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
On that topic, I can't find any policy guidance on how to disambiguate between places and topics that share the same name. All of our guidelines assume that naming conflicts are only for one place against another place. Powers (talk) 15:40, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

Copy and paste detection[edit]

Hey All We have been successfully running a bot to pick up copy and paste issues on En Wikipedia per [3]. Would WV be interested in a bot running here? It is about 60% accurate and we see copyright issues in about 5 to 10% of substantial edits. Travel Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:40, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't think it could do much harm... And it good help getting rid of that google penalty... Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:10, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
That bot has already been set up on Wikivoyage, although it hasn't made any edits in a while: Special:Contributions/EranBot. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:36, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
Ah perfect. Will see about activating it again if people find it useful. Travel Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:40, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Informal hiking trail - how to document?[edit]

I'm travelling Yunnan in Southwest China at the moment. In the Xishuangbanna region, a popular activity is hiking through the tropical forests and tea plantations, passing through minority villages. While the possibilities for routes are almost endless, there seem to be two multi-day treks that are commonly done by western travelers (I have no insight into the Chinese scene, unfortunately). Most documentation on them is jotted down in the guest books at Cafe Mei Mei in Jinghong, one of them made it to old editions of the Lonely Planet (but is no longer present in current editions). Wikivoyage currently has no hiking information for this area.

Now, how would I best document these on Wikivoyage? I've considered just adding a "Hiking" section to the Xishuangbanna page, but I'd like to make the instructions quite detailed ("turn right at the Temple [...] hike up the hill, cross the road, [...] pass the lake") and maybe add a map with a GPX track. Is this an acceptable use for an itinerary page, even though this isn't any sort of official or marked trail? LeonHandreke (talk) 11:50, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

I think you should create itineraries. Here are a couple of hikes I have started to document: Rheinsteig, Rheinburgenweg. Not saying this is the only way to document such a topic. It would be interesting to see a more detailed trail description with directions. Do not think that has been tired yet, give it a go an lets see how it looks. --Traveler100 (talk) 13:11, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
Yes. I think established routes are not a problem. It becomes a problem only if there are many possibilities and people de facto choose their own route, and people start making itineraries based on random choices. --LPfi (talk) 14:10, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
Some limited branching in an established route is also fine. See Orient Express for one example. In general hiking trails are sadly somewhat underrepresented here and it would be great to see that change. Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:56, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
Existing itineraries in the region are Tiger Leaping Gorge and Yunnan tourist trail; either might give you some ideas but the Gorge article is closer to what you want to do. Three Parallel Rivers National Park also discusses trekking. Pashley (talk) 11:23, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

GPS coordinates in China[edit]

I remember some time ago a conversation on coordinates being a little out of place with China locations. Can someone point me the information? Trying to understand difference between different map apps results. --Traveler100 (talk) 10:38, 29 May 2016 (UTC)