Wikivoyage:Travellers' pub

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Keeping the pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it gets too noisy and hard to read. If you see an old conversation (i.e. a month dormant) that could be moved to a talk page, please do so, and add "{{swept}}" there, to note that it has been swept in from the pub. Try to place it on the discussion page roughly in chronological order.
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Contents

New "flag" for certain edits?[edit]

Should we introduce a "flag" - similar to existing flags like "mobile edit" or "smileys" - for edits where an URL is replaced which has not been marked as a dead link? That way stuff like this would be more immediately obvious, without having to look through all edits first. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:34, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

It's a good idea. You can create a new filter here: Special:AbuseFilter/new Powers (talk) 20:39, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
don't you have to be an administrator to do that?Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:22, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
Yes, you need to be an admin. As far as I understand it you want to detect if a URL has been changed and Tag it as such? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:31, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
So can we make that flag? Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:54, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
Someone has to code the regex to detect it. Powers (talk) 00:32, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
You do not need to be an admin for that part (although having been one on some MediaWiki project may help getting the regex right). --LPfi (talk) 09:46, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

mapframe[edit]

When there are map coordinates of a destination in Wikidata, this is not translated into a correct positioned map, when {{mapframe|||zoom=10}} is used without coordinates. I discovered this with the Chiang Rai page. This destination has in Wikidata the coordinates (Property:P625) 19°54'34"N, 99°49'39"E.

After making the map full screen, the address line in the browser shows:

https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Chiang_Rai&diff=next&oldid=3213861#/map/0/10/20.0960/99.8752

Here 20.0960/99.8752 (20°5'45.60"N/99°52'30.72"E) are the coordinates of the map center, not the same as the P625 value in Wikidata. On the right side of the displayed map, another value is displayed for the coordinates: 20.0217, 100.0951.

I guess there must be something wrong in the supporting module of the mapframe template.

--FredTC (talk) 07:44, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

  • The same or similar issue was recently raised on "mediawiki.org" in Help talk:Extension:Kartographer -- Matroc (talk)
I don't recognize this at that mediawiki page. --FredTC (talk) 14:11, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
It is mentioned at Help_talk:Extension:Kartographer#Problem_with_coordinates_calculation -- Matroc (talk) 04:54, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

CORPORATE SHOUTING[edit]

So a recent edit to Germany introduced a list of places that have free WiFi. I removed the CORPORATE SHOUTING (i.e. companies that spell themselves in ALL CAPS) but it was reinstated in part with the reasoning that those are the "correct" spellings. What say ye? I don't want this to be a whole big argument, but if policy isn't clear on that yet, let's make it clear. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:28, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Wikivoyage: Capitalization doesn't cover it, but it should. We should follow ordinary English capitalization/capitalisation instead of corporate ("official") vanity styles. We're not here to promote Ikea, rewe, or **Meg@Corp!**. Ground Zero (talk) 21:18, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Which ordinary English rules do you want to follow? We write that "HIV causes Aids" in British English, but "HIV causes AIDS" in American English. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:24, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
IKEA is spelt Ikea on Swedish Wikipedia because we do not allow corporate shouting: it is pronounced as a word, not as a sequence of letters, and should thus be spelt as a word. If a name follows the common rules of its language, then I suppose we have no need to change it, but rewe or **Meg@Corp!** hardly follow any. --LPfi (talk) 16:48, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
So I was the one who made the entry and used the capitalisation that are on the shop signs. I however see the argument of using lowercase if the word is said and not the letters read. So Ikea and Rewe but H&M. I will not undo again if someone changes them. --Traveler100 (talk) 18:44, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
Whatamidoing's question about acronyms is something separate from corporate vanity capitalization. Acronyms should follow national treatment - British style in the UK article, US style elsewhere, generally. Corporate preferences belong on corporations' websites, but not in a not-for-profit travel guide. We've been down the road of catering to corporate interests before, and I don't think it worked out all that well. Ground Zero (talk) 01:53, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
I don't think this is hugely important either way, but all else being equal, my slight preference is for conforming the content of our guides to what would be seen on signage. I also think it's quite a logical leap to equate playing along with a company's capitalization preferences with "catering to corporate interests". -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:12, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
I'd say AndreCarrotflower has this exactly right. Pashley (talk) 11:45, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
IKEA is spelt w:en:IKEA at the English Wikipedia, because – although they do not allow "corporate shouting" – the name is an initialism, and the article is written in American English, which retains capitalizations for initialisms. In British English, you would write Ikea. This really has nothing to do with corporate preferences: as I indicated above, the system is the same for "AIDS" and "Aids". It is just how the languages work. If you are writing in American English, then you should capitalize initialisms such as IKEA. If you are writing in British English, then you should not. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:07, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
Many corporations use non-standard capitalization to draw attention to their names in text. For example, VISA card, or PRESTO card (the transit card in Ontario, Canada). These are not acronyms, they are capitalized to draw the reader's eye to the name. Writing in all-caps makes it more difficult for the reader, especially for people with visual impairments. Some companies use no capital letters for stylistic reasons, which makes it more difficult for readers to identify that these are brand names and not ordinary words. Yet other companies replace some letters with symbols on their signage. Let's make things simpler for readers by using standard capitalization. Ground Zero (talk) 11:48, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
The rule for initialisms is much more complex than just British vs. American English. I think in any dialect words like radar (radio detection and ranging) or laser (light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation) are lowercase, and things like DDT or VPN uppercase. Part of it is whether they are pronounceable as words, but I (Canadian) would still use uppercase for HIV, AIDS or QED or JET. I'd write "SQL" & pronounce it as three letters in many contexts, but as "sequel" in others. Pashley (talk) 13:29, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
The rule is that British English converts pronounceable initialisms into title case (Aids, but IBM – also QED, because the names of the individual letters are named separately: "kyoo ee dee", not "kwed") and that American English doesn't (AIDS and IBM). Canadian English may well have succumbed to the influence of its southern neighbor in this regard.
Any pronounceable acroynm could, in theory, become a word in its own right after enough time. Base jumping and captcha are two of the newest ones to make that uncommon transition. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:07, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Script oddity[edit]

Using a Linux version of Firefox, and I keep getting this error message:

A script on this page may be busy, or it may have stopped responding. ...
Script: https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/lo…ts&skin=vector&version=02u0abl:12

I do not recall seeing such messages before on WV, though Facebook gives them fairly often. Since I started editing the Aarhus article, though, I am seeing them often, I think only for Aarhus & mostly when I go to edit a listing. Pashley (talk) 12:16, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

A 180-degree turnaround at dotm[edit]

Folks, I wanted to note (and do so on as highly visible a page as possible) the marked improvement I've been seeing vis-à-vis the earlier situation at DotM. As I noted elsewhere, when I sounded the alarm about Groningen, we pulled together and whipped the article into shape in record time, and now we're in the process of doing the same with the even bigger task at hand at Aarhus. (Kind thanks go out to Andrewssi2 and Pashley for their help with that latter article.) This is the kind of thing that makes me feel very heartened, and very optimistic about the future of DotM and Wikivoyage in general. You guys are all doing great. Keep it up!

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:53, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Fetch coordinates from Wikidata[edit]

Hello, I just listingyfied all the stops of the Amtrak Cascades. Is there some way to tell it to get the Wikidata items from the associated WP links and from thence the coordinates for a dynamic map to be less work? Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:44, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

You could try the code for coordinates from Template:Listing/test. Maybe a bot could add "wikidata=" based on "wikipedia=". Jura1 (talk) 22:59, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
Is there any easier way to do this? I don't want to write a bot tbh (and I don't know how to do that either) Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:43, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
Yes it is not a long list of locations, click on each article, edit and read the coordinates from the geo tap at the bottom of the article, then copy paste. —The preceding comment was added by Traveler100 (talkcontribs)
Well, it could solve it for every listing in Wikivoyage. d:Wikidata:Bot requests might find someone who can do it. Jura1 (talk) 19:30, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Why do itineraries not get breadcrumbs?[edit]

In light of this, why indeed? They don't make sense everywhere, of course, but in some cases they do. And we do have them for Travel Topics, after all. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:43, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I would like to propose that they do have breadcrumbs. I do not think they should be in the main location breadcrumb and be mixed in with cities and regions but there are two other methods. First is set up a breadcrumb hierarchy for Itineraries, i.e. Itineraries in France etc. Second is to add them to the existing Travel Topics hierarchy, go under Hiking or Rail travel. With travel topics methods they would also be added to the geographical categories on the Topics index page. Both methods have the advantage would not have to manually maintain the index page, they would be added when the PartOfTopic template is filled in. --Traveler100 (talk) 19:14, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
Where do the intercontinental itineraries, like RMS Titanic or Around the World in Eighty Days, fit into this proposed breadcrumb structure? K7L (talk) 19:32, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
Some of them can be put into a thematic breadcrumb hierarchy, but I think said breadcrumbs should be optional not mandatory. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:09, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
If a new breadcrumbs trail for Itineraries is created then directly under the main level of Itineraries at same level as continents, if using the existing Travel Topic breadcrumbs then would be under a subject area and would not have a second region category. The second option I would suggest keeping the article type so would have travel topics and itineraries under the same hierarchy, similar to the fact we have airports and parks articles in same structure as cities. --Traveler100 (talk) 05:53, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
In the German Wikivoyage edition we are using two roots for breadcrumbs trail navigation, world and travel topics -- both in the main and the categories namespaces. Of course, this was also for historical reasons, because we used two namespaces for these trails. The cause was simple: our own Wikidata database, named Location database, could not handle non-geographic objects in its initial state. Most of our itineraries are now part of the topics trail like this: Travel topics > [Going ahead/traveling] > Hiking > Hiking in Europe > Hiking in England > Coast to Coast Walk. --RolandUnger (talk) 07:05, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
Some of us objected quite strongly to breadcrumbs for travel topics. I still think adding them was a mistake & somewhat resent the fact that people went ahead & made massive changes without, as I saw it, even trying to answer valid objections. Perhaps that is just me being a curmudgeon & in any case it is probably too late to reverse that decision.
The same objection applies to itineraries. Unlike geographical areas, they do not naturally form a hierarchy so it is arguably a mistake to try to force them into one. I have no objection at all where there is a natural hierarchic relation, for example Along the Yangtze River is in China and Scuba diving in Australia might have a link to either Australia or Scuba diving.
Where I would object is when there is no natural hierarchy to use, or many might be considered. It is clear for example that a "cycling in Europe" article could be link to "cycling" (or Europe), but where should cycling link? It is a travel activity & a competitive sport, so link to Sports or Activities? But it is also a mode of transportation, so group it with Driving, Rail, Hiking, etc.? Bike travellers have specific needs & interests, like LGBT folk or travellers with kids, so group it with those? Like scuba or photography, it involves making complex choices about equipment that ranges in price from cheap to stratospheric & can be bought or rented; group it with those articles?
I'd say the only reasonable solution is to put breadcrumb tags into TT articles only when it is completely clear that there is a natural hierarchy in play. Tagging "Literary London" as in London makes sense. Scuba diving in Australia might have a link to either Australia or Scuba diving; I'd say tagging it as part of "Scuba diving" is more sensible. I do not think "cycling" should be tagged at all. Pashley (talk) 14:21, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
In case the above is not clear, that implies that I would object strongly to setting up "a breadcrumb hierarchy for Itineraries, i.e. Itineraries in France etc." As I see it, any such hierarchy would be inherently bogus because there is not a single natural hierarchy in play here; it would make just as much sense to group some of them under "cycling routes", others under "rail travel in Europe", etc.
Of course we already have breadcrumbs for the natural geographic hierarchy e,g. Europe > France > Southeastern France > Provence. To me it would be fine to make an itinerary link to Provence or France, but duplicating that hierarchy with Itineraries in Provence, Itineraries in France, etc. would be obviously idiotic. Pashley (talk) 14:44, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
We deleted several "Topics in ..." articles some time back; see Wikivoyage:Votes_for_deletion/August_2013#Topics_in_South_America and a few after that. As I see it, all "Intineraries in ..." could be deleted for similar reasons. They could even be speedy deleted; this should not require discussion on the VFD page.
On the other hand, no-one should be either creating such articles or deleting them if some already exist until discussion here finishes. Pashley (talk) 15:14, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
I agree that "itineraries in" articles should not be created for the time being, as itineraries are to be listed on the region/country page that contains them, but what if there are more than nine itineraries in a given geographic unit? Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:32, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
To me, that would be a sign that certain itineraries should be merged, or the scope of the geographic unit's divisions needs to be adjusted. Powers (talk) 19:44, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
I suppose there can be more than nine useful itineraries in some, perhaps any, geographic unit (I count nine official thematic walks in Turku off the top of my head). But for that to be a "problem" we first need somebody really writing all of them, and if such a contributor turns up we can have subheadings for itineraries of different length or style, and if need be, a subarticle listing the itineraries. If the itineraries are good there is no problem, and I have a hard time imaging a user creating lots of itineraries not worth listing (other than if most of them are stubs or really bad, but that is a user issue, not a policy issue). --LPfi (talk) 09:38, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

adding "wikidata=" to listings[edit]

If there is interest, I could try to find a way to add "wikidata=" based on "wikipedia=" to all listings. What do you think ? Jura1 (talk) 08:19, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I would like that, but I can't judge the risks and problems this might bring. Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:02, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
Sounds like a fine idea to me, but much better done by a bot than manually. If that is how you want to do it, discussion should continue at Wikivoyage:Script nominations.
If you propose to do it manually, I'd like some explanation here. It looks to me like it would be a huge amount of work & quite error-prone. Pashley (talk) 22:39, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
No, bot should be fine. It should be fairly straightforward. If needed, Wikidata:Bot requests might be a place to find a Wikidata-proficient operator.
I just did a few manually to get an idea of the listings available (mostly lighthouses and film festivals). It lead to the creation of a few missing Wikidata items for such entries and complete existing items (lighthouses were found to be difficult to search for at Wikidata). Jura1 (talk) 12:14, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

I left a note at d:Wikidata:Bot_requests#Adding_items_to_Wikivoyage_listings. Jura1 (talk) 18:28, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Can markers have a wikipedia parameter, if not why not?[edit]

Listings have them, right? I wanted to put the wp symbol behing Nuremberg Airport in our article on Nuremberg but I don't want to convert it to a listing Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:18, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Edits to Tortuga (Haiti)[edit]

The IP editor who has made some edits to the aforementioned article seems to be acting in good faith but seems to be a bit clueless about how stuff works here. Given that we desperately need local knowledge from this corner of the globe and that in the past "recent changes patrol" has made people disappear, how should we handle this?Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:44, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

While the edits were done in good faith, they are of little value and would require large scale editing to salvage any of it. I do not have access to Wifi, or the time to do this now. I assume that if you were able to do the required edits, you would do so instead of asking others to take care of it here. Unless someone is willing and able, the mess that was added to the article should removed. Perhaps at least you could provide feedback to the contributor to explain why the edits are not acceptable. Ground Zero (talk) 19:52, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
Furthermore, much of the information is factually questionable. Specifically, "the island is called 'Île de la Tortue' which translates into torture island" is simply wrong. I speak English, French, and Spanish fluently. Tortue means "turtle" in French, whereas the Spanish word for turtle is tortuga, which is, voilà, the title of this article. "I haven't quite found out yet why spanish and english speaking people translate tortue into turtle" - Why? Because that's what the words mean, that's why. Simple. Everything else in that paragraph is pure conjecture (and not even intelligent conjecture). Come the hell on - no one is going to name a place "Torture Island". -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:26, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
I cleaned it up a little bit. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:36, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
Thank you very much. Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:48, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Lint errors[edit]

See m:Wikivoyage/Lounge#Lint_errors. --Andyrom75 (talk) 08:04, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

@Andyrom75: I've fixed several hundred myself now. If you can amend {{Regionlist}}, then I think that would empty out Special:LintErrors/bogus-image-options. —Justin (koavf)TCM 06:33, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
@Koavf:, sorry the delay but I've been pretty busy. That template is different from the one used in it:voy, but at a first glance it seems that it doesn't produce issues anymore. Whether I'm wrong, please highlight me the category and the page where you have seen the issue and I'll take a look. --Andyrom75 (talk) 15:01, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Commons Android app - IEG renewal proposal[edit]

Hi folks,

The Wikimedia Commons app (a community-maintained Android app that allows users to upload photos to Commons from their phone) was funded via an Individual Engagement Grant last year and has several new features - a list and map of nearby places that need photos (based on Wikidata), category suggestions based on the image title and location (if geotagging is enabled in camera app), prevention of duplicate uploads, and a new tutorial to educate new users on what types of photos should or should not be uploaded. The final report for the completed IEG can be viewed here.

While we are very happy with the progress made, there are many other improvements that we would like to make but were not able to fit into the scope of the previous grant. Thus we are proposing a renewal of the IEG in order to work on these. Highlights of the proposed improvements include:

  • Enhancing the "Nearby places that need photos" feature by (1) allowing users to upload their image directly from a location on the list or map, with suggested title and categories based on the associated Wikidata item, and (2) displaying the user's real-time position on the map to allow easier navigation to the location they wish to photograph
  • A sleeker, more intuitive, and more interactive user interface - a floating action button for uploads, "Nearby places that need photos" in a tab alongside the user's contributions, and a panel to display Commons account notifications and information about the nearest place that needs photos
  • Various technical and quality-of-life improvements, such as two-factor authentication login, multiple uploads, preventing overwrites, and fixing memory leaks and battery drain issues
  • Improving user education by displaying Commons account and user talk notifications (e.g. picture nominated for deletion) in the app, adding a gallery of featured images, and adding various notices and explanations in the upload screen

We would very much appreciate feedback and suggestions on the renewal proposal - we are especially excited about the "Nearby places that need photos" feature, as we feel that it can help close the gap of geo-located Wikidata items that lack photos, and provide photos for articles that need them. Please do take a look at our proposal, feel free to ask questions and make new suggestions on the Discussion page, and/or endorse the proposal if you see fit. If you would like to be part of the project, new volunteers and additions to our diverse team are always welcome - please visit our GitHub repository or Google groups forum and say "Hi". :)


Many thanks! Misaochan (talk) 10:28, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

"API Key Required"[edit]

Any dynamic maps with the Relief Map layer have the caption "API Key Required" on them since yesterday. (see example below - please change the map layer to the Relief Map layer in order to see the caption).

Map of Travellers' pub

How can we remove those captions? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 16:22, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

We cannot remove these captions. Thunderforest.com (Open Cycle Map) changed their license policy, anyone has now to use a API key. Now I do not know if can can use other maps. People must have an own account at Thunderforest.com first. The URLs in the past like http://{s}.tile.thunderforest.com/landscape/{z}/{x}/{y}.png must have an addition like ?apikey=<insert-your-apikey-here> but I think we cannot do it for Wikivoyage in general. See also OSM Help Page.
If anyone knows another relief maps source then we can change it easily.
Maybe we should ask the Mediawiki developers to provide relief maps, too. -- RolandUnger (talk) 17:15, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
Well, that's not suppose to happen. I created a task and the Maps team at the foundation is looking into what we can do. CKoerner (WMF) (talk) 19:09, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. --RolandUnger (talk) 05:44, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
Hi, we've obtained an API key and will get it implemented and deployed to Wikivoyage soon. DTankersley (WMF) (talk) 17:49, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
Done here. MaxSem (WMF) (talk) 00:53, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

What is this?[edit]

It seems somebody attempted to do something with this some four years ago (maybe even with some consensus behind it) but now? What are we to do with this? Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:37, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Ahh, I remember this. This was a pet project of a no-longer-active user that he started shortly after our move to the WMF, then abandoned somewhere along the way. As I remember it, it was an attempt at a more interactive and personalized user experience. One of those ideas that frequently come along that are good but we don't have the manpower to see through to fruition. I'd say the best course of action would be to move it to his userspace in case he comes back and wants to pick up where he left off, or some other user happens across it. However, I'd wait to do that until you get feedback from other people besides just me. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:29, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
Andre's approach makes sense to me. Ground Zero (talk) 11:14, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Mapshape issue[edit]

I want to add a <<mapshape>> entry to Akko in place of the <<mapmask>> which is currently used. However, when I try to do this (in preview mode) the shape it uses is totally wrong, it looks like it picks 4 random points from the correct shape to form a quadrilateral, and discards all the other points. What is going on? Ar2332 (talk) 20:56, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

My guess is OSM just has those 4 points available - if this is the case, OSM data would have to be corrected/created to be used with template mapshape as the first avenue to take. Other more tedious solutions are to take the current accurate coordinates you have and convert them to GeoJSON format and add to the existing mapframe or create a maplink and yet another option is to create a Commons:Data File and call that map file as External Data. -- Matroc (talk) 04:55, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
The relation in OSM is perfectly okay. Never had this issue. Really strange.--Renek78 (talk) 06:01, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
I think something like this happened once before with an OSM relation; regrettably, I don't remember the cause or solution -- Matroc (talk) 01:46, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
Was it an OSM entry last time? I vaguely recall a case like this which was using a manually-supplied list of co-ordinates on which the first co-ordinate pair matched the last one to draw a closed figure. Adding or removing one final point from that local list "fixed" things. That sort of tinkering with data to work around a bug isn't going to be straightforward if OSM is being used as an external data source. K7L (talk) 11:33, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
It is working now! Perhaps an OSM update? -- Matroc (talk) 04:53, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
It's not working now - I just drew the outline manually. Ar2332 (talk) 16:28, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Weird edit to Traben-Trarbach[edit]

An IP has made a weird edit with listings including "<sleep> and the likes. Is that a copvyo? Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:25, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Sleep tags like that are still used on that other wiki; it appears the user, after adding the listing to WT, copied it over here and reformatted it to use Template:Sleep, but forgot to delete the pasted text. Powers (talk) 01:47, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Hide markers on Mapshape?[edit]

Hi all, I added a dynamic map to Saint Petersburg via a maplink to Commons. But there are plenty of "listings" (e.g. embassies) and "do" markers cluttering up the map, which I would like to hide. Normally one can use the paramter "show" on the mapframe. But in this case I don't know how to address my Commons map. "show=maplink" or "=Commons" or whatever all doesn't work. Anyone knows a way? --Renek78 (talk) 12:27, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Renek78 {{Mapframe|59.92|30.24|30.30|zoom=9|show=other}} - add "show=other" to just show maplinks belonging to group other -- (you can add "|group=other" to your mapframe but is not needed -- Matroc (talk)
Thanks Matroc! That was an easy - and logical - solution. Thanks a lot!--Renek78 (talk) 06:24, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
Matroc, do you also have a solution for the messed up Mapmask in Singapore - Little India? I did it the usual way with help of gpx2mapmask. Preview was flawless, just on the article page it breaks. Tried to delete some points - to no avail. --Renek78 (talk) 06:29, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
Did not find problem - The coordinates appear to be correct as I built a polygon from them with mapframe - I also plotted out the points to check order and that is fine as well ... I agree, something is happening somewhere as this should work... -- Matroc (talk) 04:51, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
Renek78 - I fixed this mapshape to work by repeating one of the coordinates which in my mind should not have corrected the issue at all - anyhow working! -- Matroc (talk) 06:11, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
Thanks again, Matroc :) !--Renek78 (talk) 06:26, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Usage of <center>[edit]

So in topics like Early United States History we previously had a line break between <center>United States historical travel topics:</center> and '''[[Indigenous cultures of North America|Indigenous nations]] → [[Early United States history|Pre-Civil War]] → [[American Civil War|Civil War]] → [[Old West]] → [[Industrialization of the United States|Industrialization]] → [[Post-war United States|Post-war]]''' - now the <center> has recently been removed resulting in what looks to me a less aesthetically pleasing layout. Now if it only produces a change in layout on my OS/Browser, why are we changing it? And if produces the same outcome in other OS/Browsers, who thinks that that outcome is better? Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:30, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

The center tag is a legacy browser feature. I've now switched this out with some CSS but still keeping the same layout. -- WOSlinker (talk) 19:56, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
This looks to be related to #Lint errors, above. I'm seeing cases where editors are actively removing <center> tags, affecting the formatting of existing text, just to make this rather trivial and pointless warning go away. Is this necessary? K7L (talk) 21:22, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
Yes. Or, if not strictly "necesary", it is at least highly desirable.
I have no view on whether the tags should be removed or replaced by the modern HTML equivalent, but the center tags themselves should not be be used. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 21:37, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
And let me add to the chorus: we shouldn't deliberately make pages which are not valid HTML. MediaWiki should be able to strip that out and replace it with a style but until/unless that happens, we should still not be intentionally adding bad HTML. —Justin (koavf)TCM 00:05, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
Would a center template be useful at all? -- Matroc (talk) 05:02, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
@Matroc: It could be very useful, certainly but all that MediaWiki code like {{center|...}} will still translate into HTML since this is the Web. The question is if it will be valid or invalid HTML. —Justin (koavf)TCM 04:56, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Sorry to ask so "stupidly" but why do those tags have to be removed and or replaced? Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:54, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

MediaWiki is planning to implement a new parser that will have much stricter requirements about markup than the current parser (which is already stricter than your average web browser). Powers (talk) 13:55, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
And what's the benefit of that? Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:12, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
@Hobbitschuster: There are rules to how HTML should be written and when authors ignore those rules, it makes it much harder to predict what behavior a browser is supposed to have or how things should render. This makes browsers far more difficult to create. If web pages use HTML properly and everyone obeys the rules, it will be much more efficient for everyone: indexing robots will easily understand what is in a page, browsers can more effectively render content, etc. —Justin (koavf)TCM 04:56, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
The behaviour of <center> is perfectly predictable as it's part of the original HTML 1.0 spec and has always worked the same way. It's individual editors here randomly pulling the <center> tags and leaving text left-justified not for valid editorial reasons, but because they're on a technical crusade against the <center> tag, that are the unpredictable factor here. The effects are subtle and annoying. I've seen a couple of examples; one was a navigation box linking to a list of U.S. history articles, the other was an infobox on Oregon Trail#Across Nebraska where Susan has died of cholera was centred over her grave stone until somebody disturbed her grave, believing the <center> tag is so evil that they just had to leave a left-justified title over a centre-justified image instead. The formatting is an editorial decision, its removal should also be subject to editorial consensus instead of just "I hate <center> tags". K7L (talk) 13:02, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
I think we might want to go easy on removing those tags for a bit... Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:33, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Pictograms as used in the article on Termoli[edit]

Have a look at the article on Termoli - there we have some pictograms about e.g. the highways leading to the place and others. Should we use them, not use them, encourage their use, discourage their use, mention our stance on them in our existing manual of style or should we have a standalone policy on them? I have no made up opinion on this, but I think we should discuss this. Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:02, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm not an expert in website accessibility issues, but I would expect that these would not work well with readers for people with visual impairments. I think they are a bad idea. Let's use our words instead. Ground Zero (talk) 12:42, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
Our image use policy would indicate against such decorative uses. We do use images to make our articles "beautiful" but I'm not sure such pictograms qualify. Powers (talk) 13:56, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
Well I think other language versions use them quite extensively. Have a look at Kassel's use of the German bus (tram) stop sign to see what I mean. Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:11, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
A street sign with the letter H in a circle
If you needed to find this, then don't you think it'd help to know what it looks like?
I like the highway signs in that article (assuming that they show what the real sign on the highway will look like). Highways in (at least) the US can be confusing because of the different types, and knowing whether you should look for the blue-and-red interstate sign, the white-shield US highway sign, or the state highway sign (usually a plain white circle?) would be helpful to the traveler.
I'm less excited about the icon of the boat and the train. They seem to be official symbols, but I'm not sure how useful they are.
I'm of two minds about the bus: On the one hand, a blue rectangle with the drawing of a bus in it is not so informative. The Italians seem to have settled on a remarkably simple icon for this. On the other hand, if that's what the sign looks like at the individual bus stops, then it could be a little useful to anyone and a lot useful to travelers whose home country's bus stop signs look different. Most of us could probably guess what a sign with a drawing of a bus means, but there are a lot of other styles in use, too. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:23, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Embassy and consulate formatting[edit]

For some reason the appearance of embassy and consulate listings seems to have changed—before, the flag and the name of the country appeared right next to each other, but now the flag appears on its own line and the name of the country and other information appear on the next line. I don't think this is a good change—it makes the listings take up extra space with no benefit that I can see. Was it caused by the recent edits to Template:Listing? —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:43, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

@Verdy p: changing <span> to <div> probably broke it. Jura1 (talk) 11:07, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
@Andyrom75: could you check? it seems to be this edit. Jura1 (talk) 11:36, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
@Mx. Granger:, @Jura1:, thanks for alert. There are work in progress to eliminate lint errors that may cause minor glitches like in this case. I should have fixed the problem using a different tag suggested by @Verdy p:. Purge the pages if you don't see them yet correctly. --Andyrom75 (talk) 12:50, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for the fix! —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:13, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
Looks fine on Ulaanbaatar#Embassies. Thx. Jura1 (talk) 14:29, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
I confirm, my suggestion to change "span" NOT to "div" (like what Adyrom did) but "bdi" was the thing to do, because this is the only HTML tag MediaWiki supports that has a *mixed* content display type, not enforcing a "block" or "inline" display type, so not breaking other block containers like lists and paragraphs, but still allowing the inner content to contain block elements if needed (though the parameters of Template:T should avoid using any block element, they should all be inline and that's why the initial setting using "span" only was working in lists before it was changed by Andyrom75 to a "div" only because a few listings contain multiple lines instead of just "br" elements) but there are some listing entries that need to use multiple paragraphs for example to add further details: if these parameters contain lists or multiple paragraphs, the listing type itself will be OK, but this will still break a container list containing multiple listing occurences, if they don't properly use the appropriate number of leading ":" or "*" or ";" to not break those lists and get the expected indentations. There's possibly a way to fix that, but this would require atting the CSS attribute "display:inline-block" to the englobing "bdi" elemement which is used now, in order to preserve the margins. This would then not require counting the independation levels, and any content could be used more freely in the listing attributes, including multiple paragraphs, but I fear that MediaWik will still break by incorrectly splitting the bdi content. I know that Mediawiki is about to deprecate the old code that was infering which closing tags were "missing" and automatically generated: this old code causes now more problem than what they were initially useful for to fix bad old practices (and anyway we have now many useful templates to generate layouts in pages and preserve accessibility of pages, so that users will need much less tweaking things in CSS or tricky HTML tags, in addition Mediawiki will soon introduce stylesheets for templates or pages, that will help cleaning up the too frequent use of CSS style attributes (in pages containing tabular data, this requires using complex templates that generate even more complex HTML code with too much repeated CSS styles, cuaing giants pages that are slow to download and render, and that fail to render on many small mobile devices).
So in summary, this a good step in the right direction. Even HTML5 is now abandoning the former "inline" vs. "block" content models in favor of a more semantic content model detached from the presentation. And we should favor stylesheets to inline CSS attributes: they are more powerful and easier to tune at lower cost for every one. I hope that someday MediaWiki will add support for the missing HTML5 elements (even if it adds restrictions for security, notably in javascripts and event-handlers): it's still difficult to understand why basic HTML elements are forbidden like "colgroup", "col", "thead", "tbody's" and "tfoot" in tables and why new semantic elements are still rejected... Verdy p (talk) 16:52, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Edit dates for listing[edit]

Is there a general agreement whether to keep or drop the edit dates (lastedit) for any listing (see, do, etc.)? They are sometimes helpful but also make articles less nice to read.

Cheers Ceever (talk) 07:18, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

  • Keep - if I see an edit date of May 2017, I'll go to the restaurant or museum with some confidence that the time and price info are fairly correct. If I see an edit date of 2008, I will verify the existence of the place before setting foot out the door. People updating articles will likely choose to focus on checking the oldest listings. Ground Zero (talk) 12:22, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
I know we had a discussion ahead if implementing this, but I don't know where it is. I think the lastedit field is very valuable and it gives an idea as to how up-to-date an individual listing is. If the aesthetic considerations are indeed so major, we might make it an opt-out feature for registered users or for the printable versions... Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:32, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
I think we should keep the field, but should stop auto-populating the current date into the field every time a user adds a new listing. Often, listings are added based not on the contributor being physically present at the venue today, but based on secondary sources or even the property's own promotional website - which might not have been updated in years. If a user finds a motel website for tiny Cartwright (Labrador) today and adds that listing, but the motel last updated their website on Tripod in 2004, that should be lastedit=2004-01-01 not lastedit=2017-07-25 as much of the info risks being out of date. We know this place still exists and passed an annual provincial inspection, but any info we obtained from their website is of historical interest only. K7L (talk) 14:37, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
We can manually remove or alter the date there. And I think only experienced users (who'd know how to do that) add listings based on the website of the business. Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:51, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
Another advantage is you have and idea where to look in the history if you want to find out who did the last edit. Use when I have a question about an entry. --Traveler100 (talk) 18:32, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
I think the discussion was here. The autofill for the date saves a lot of time, and normally will produce the right result. The Cartwright error was mine. I believed when I updated it that the website was valid, and would have manually added the date if the line had been blanked. I learned from that mistake to be on the look-out for out-of-date websites. I have not come across another Tripod site since then. Cartwright was a pretty unusual circumstance, and should be used to set policy. Ground Zero (talk) 11:05, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
The tiny motel in Cartwright isn't the only business to have outdated information on the web. They're plentiful. I only mentioned Cartwright as it was a particularly blatant example and I know some of the info on that site is wrong (the Eagle River CU branch does not exist, as it's not in the list of branches on the credit union's site, but the motel lists it as available). I don't know how much of the info is wrong. The only conditions under which today's date should be inserted as lastedit=... ("mark as up to date") is if the Wikivoyager is either (a) in the destination city right now to see first-hand, (b) picks up a telephone and verifies this directly with someone at destination, (c) has other current communication (e-mail, carrier pigeon, whatever) to the venue or some source of local info (like a destination marketing organisation or visitor info booth) at destination or (d) is looking at something which was posted today with a clear date - they're still getting online reviews, the food inspector posted this year's results today, they're posting timeline to blog or social media with today's date stamp (on a page they control, the existence of a "facebook unofficial page" is meaningless and useless per-se), they just made the front page of the Cartwright Daily Codswallop (extra! extra! read all about it!) and the article is on the newspaper's website with an actual dateline. Otherwise, outdated info stays around for years online, where it risks being sucked into WV and stamped "current" by well-intentioned armchair Wikivoyageurs. Not helpful. Don't add "lastedit=2017" unless you've verified the info is still valid in 2017.
The timestamp isn't intended to determine when the listing was added to the article. On the article's "view history" page, there's a link "External tools: Search" at the top to do what you're looking for. The lastedit timestamp indicates a Wikivoyageur directly verified the information is still current as of that date. Lose that concept, and the datestamp becomes much less valuable. That's why I think we shouldn't be autopopulating 2017 in this field. K7L (talk) 14:31, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
It is only populated with the current date if and when we checkmark "mark listing as up to date". And when a listing is created from scratch. However, in the latter case it's almost always a) someone who is there / has been there recently b) the owner or someone close to them trying to tout or c) an experienced wikivoyager. In the first two cases, we don't have to worry about the up-to-dateness. In case c we only have to worry about the subset of experienced Wikivoyagers doing armchair research online who find something that is not up to date any more and who do not verify with more than one source. Now of course there is also the unlikely case d) - someone doing armchair research who doesn't know how to remove the "current date" from the field, but really, how likely is that to be a bigger problem than hypothetical malicious editors making stuff up? That said, maybe I should depopulate the "last edit" field when I add the one eat or sleep listing to places in e.g. Switzerland. Even though I think my method of finding them is quite good at catching what might not be up to date. I go to the town tourism site, then see what hotels / restaurants there are, chose one at semi-random (I try to prefer local cuisine) go to the website of the business to fill out the fields, go to a map service to get the coordinates and then hit safe. I really doubt that a listing would be listed in those three and not exist at the time of writing, but other than physically going there, there is probably no way to make sure... Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:51, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
It's not a case of "someone doing armchair research who doesn't know how to remove the 'current date' from the field" but of the date being there as a default on a new listing unless conscious and repeated efforts are made to remove it, manually, every time. This exploits user inattention and laziness - unless the user is ever-vigilant to remove this, they get put in whether the info is fresh today or just the leftovers from a venue's out-of-date website or an outdated secondary source. The default should be to leave lastedit= blank unless the user actively is saying 'yes, I verified this with someone at the destination today'. K7L (talk) 18:31, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
The default is that lastedit is filled in with the current date in one of two cases: The listing is newly created or the listing is updated and the checkmark "mark this listing as up to date" is explicitly set. Your wording implies that it is also changed in other cases. That's not the case. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:35, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Hi there guys. I would like to reignite this discussion again on another point of view. I noticed that when editing listing where the date is older, the date does not get updated (see line "762" in this history: https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Yerevan&type=revision&diff=3258608&oldid=3239980).

This is not just bad, because of the inaccurate date. In general old dates like 2015 give the impression to the reader that the listings are out of date, which they not necessarily are. This, in turn, might be bad publicity on the internet if people start thinking that the information on WV is outdated and rather opt for WT or LP. Btw, the latter is often praised with "completely new researched", which , of course, just seems to be good marketing.

So, maybe it would be a good idea to at least remove older lastedit dates, because then it just says "that it is not the newest information but might still be reliable", instead of say "look, this information is from 2015 and two years old, rather go and get an up to date LP".

Ceever (talk) 13:38, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Please stop removing the edit dates while this discussion is on-going. When you update a listing, you have to update the edit manually (type the new date in). It doesn't update automatically. I'd like to know if the information is two years old (i.e., still pretty relevant, or seven years old (probably not useful at all), so yes, I think an edit date of 2015 is useful, and fair to the reader, so they don't go expecting the prices to be the same. LP tells you when the book was published, but not when the info was collected. We win by being more transparent. Ground Zero (talk) 13:50, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
In the listing editor? There's a check box "mark as up-to-date". Checking that inserts today's date, unchecking this leaves the original information. Unfortunately, two options are missing:
  • There's no way to tell the listing editor to blank the field. If someone's bringing in new info from a secondary source or from a venue website, they might not know when the upstream source was last updated. In that case, leaving the date blank is best.
  • There's no way to tell the listing editor to leave "lastedit" blank when creating a new listing. The "mark as up-to-date" box is gone.
I run into this constantly when I find some small town which has no article at all, construct something from online sources and need to leave "lastedit" blank on everything as I don't have any info on when those upstream sources were last updated. Usually, I just edit the page manually (without the listing editor) and remove "lastedit=" from each newly-created listing. K7L (talk) 13:56, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Our banners reused elsewhere :-)[edit]

The Wikivoyage banners are being used by a webapp produced by the French Wikipedia, see for instance https://macommune.wikipedia.fr/Q279681/Thouars This means our efforts also benefit other projects. Syced (talk) 12:12, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

There are no "add listing" links in sections like See and Do for the page Zeeland[edit]

This problem occurs at Zeeland, but not at (most?) other pages, like Middelburg (Zeeland). In nl:WV there is the same problem, see: nl:Zeeland and nl:Middelburg, where the last does have "item toevoegen" links. --FredTC (talk) 12:09, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

I think there are no "add listing" links because Zeeland is a region, not a city. This seems like a feature to me, not a problem, because regions aren't usually supposed to have individual listings, and the lack of a link discourages users from adding them. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:46, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I noticed more regions that don't have them. However another Dutch province, Flevoland, does have them. So I cannot see what makes the difference. --FredTC (talk) 13:53, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
You're right, Flevoland has them. I'm guessing that's because it has the heading "Municipalities" instead of "Cities"—when I changed the heading, the links disappeared. —Granger (talk · contribs) 21:04, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
The cause is very simple. AddListing is working. You can learn it for instance from North Brabant. The Listings have an edit button. But there is a stupid code line in MediaWiki:Gadget-ListingEditor.js
var DISALLOW_ADD_LISTING_IF_PRESENT = ['#Cities', '#Other_destinations', '#Islands', '#print-districts' ];
If you study the code you will learn that articles which contain one of these four headers (Cities, etc.) will not get an "add listing" to the section headers but only to the listings. --RolandUnger (talk) 09:40, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
I think it is intended to have no "add listing" links in region articles, see Wikivoyage:Manual of style, too. Because nobody should add such listings, they must be stored in site articles. Unfortunately software cannot distinguish between a region and a city article. That's why the editor is checking for subheaders which can only occur in region articles. --RolandUnger (talk) 08:23, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

GPX track download?[edit]

Special:Upload currently lists permitted file types: tiff, tif, png, gif, jpg, jpeg, webp, xcf, pdf, mid, ogg, ogv, svg, djvu, oga, flac, opus, wav, webm. Would it be worth asking that Wikimedia add .gpx as one of the valid file types?

I could see it being useful for providing downloadable tracks for itinerary (the {{GPX indicator}} link on every page downloads just the article's POI's); that data could then be loaded into GPS units and taken on the road.

We seem to be accumulating novelty itinerary for roads which don't actually exist cross-country (such as Oregon Trail and Route 66, which are popular as fiction). The missing chunks are bridged by sending the voyager onto a long list of real highways (so "US66" in the Texas Panhandle ends up mostly on I-40, for instance). Those quickly become hard to follow; "it's not on my GPS" is a running joke in Cars (2006 film) for a reason. K7L (talk) 16:09, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Wow, silence. I'd wanted to upload GPX for Oregon Trail before it becomes the featured travel topic on the 21st, but I guess I can't? K7L (talk) 14:31, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Improved search in deleted pages archive[edit]

During Wikimedia Hackathon 2016, the Discovery team worked on one of the items on the 2015 community wishlist, namely enabling searching the archive of deleted pages. This feature is now ready for production deployment, and will be enabled on all wikis, except Wikidata.

Right now, the feature is behind a feature flag - to use it on your wiki, please go to the Special:Undelete page, and add &fuzzy=1 to the URL, like this: https://test.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AUndelete&fuzzy=1. Then search for the pages you're interested in. There should be more results than before, due to using ElasticSearch indexing (via the CirrusSearch extension).

We plan to enable this improved search by default on all wikis soon (around August 1, 2017). If you have any objections to this - please raise them with the Discovery team via email or on this announcement's discussion page. Like most Mediawiki configuration parameters, the functionality can be configured per wiki. Once the improved search becomes the default, you can still access the old mode using &fuzzy=0 in the URL, like this: https://test.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AUndelete&fuzzy=0

Please note that since Special:Undelete is an admin-only feature, this search capability is also only accessible to wiki admins.

Thank you! CKoerner (WMF) (talk) 18:21, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Articles needing attention[edit]

I usually tackle every day some of the articles listed under the various error categories (Articles needing attention)
Have noticed in the past few days that 20 or more titles are being listed under this category.
99.9% have no error and to clear the listings from this list I have edited and replaced the article (no changes to article)
Am noticing recent listings under this category - Appears with use of template mapshape following a template mapframe - The pages themselves appear correctly. To clear those listings from this category I simply added the optional parameter type=geomask to the mapshape template. (New Haven as example) -- Matroc (talk) 02:11, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
The first problem is known since about one month and is connected with the usage of Wikidata. The real cause is up to now unknown. Several causes like Lua, Wikidata Lua interface and parser failures are discussed. At the beginning we thought that this was connected with the change of Lua modules processing Wikidata data. But the errors occur also at other times. Most of these errors cannot be seen maybe because of a new parser run while calling the article. It is correct: the only way now to remove these script errors is to make a so-called null edit. --RolandUnger (talk) 17:15, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Policy queries[edit]

I am traveling through Morocco and I wonder if it is appropriate to add second hand sources directly to the wiki. While my gut feeling is that I should witness everything myself, I wonder how much discretion should be given generally in regards to basic information (like the price of a bus, or entry to a public pool). using my better judgement, would it be appropriate to take the word of a local? I guess I'm unsure how to balance the interest of adding and updating information for travelers quickly, and the risk of disinformation.

And as a relatively new editor I am reluctant to even raise the issue, but yesterday I added a hotel listing which I thought was warranted and I asked the hotel manager to confirm some prices and information for me (opening hours, phone number etc). Before I knew it he cottoned onto the line of my questions and my room became free of charge; the guy wouldn't even let me pay him. Some people might just think "yea free room" but it immediately raised all kinds of red flags for me, While I'm confident my edits are fair and that I'm not touting in any way I'm unsure about the wiki-voyage policy on this. Naturally it would be better to refuse favors altogether but this can cause great offence for cultural reasons in some places. The guy even told me to write that another hotel smelled bad. Naturally I didn't but I'm sure everyone can see the issue here. To be frank business in Morocco is dishonesty incarnate, if these guys know they are listed or heaven forbid learn how to edit the mess they could make would be horrible.

For my piece of mind would someone OK my edit was on the page for ouarzazate? "Hotel Atlas. Rue du Marche no.13 (5-7DM by taxi from CTM) . Convenient location, English and French spoken, WiFi, clean rooms,Hassan can guide dessert tours. (60-90DH singles, 110-160 doubles) PH.0524887745,MOB 0605202817."

I'm also having trouble listing value-added tour operators, as the whole country is a web of kickbacks and touts. Everyone will simply lie to your face or refuse to tell you who is the original operator as it's their whole business to conceal this. It seems other editors are having trouble with this too, and for travelers this is very valuable information.

Welcoming any advice or comment, as always I'll defer to more seasoned editors. --Willthewanderer (talk) 11:35, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Hi Will, thanks for your contributions so far. I'm looking forward to seeing more! Updates from the road are the best kind. It sounds like Moroccan business practices haven't changed since I was last there in 1990. Second-hand info is probably not the best, but a lot of the edits contributors make here are based on internet research, rather than personal visits, which is okay.
I edited your Hotel Atlas entry to make the price and telephone info formatting consistent with our style. You may find it useful to use our listing templates (look for the icons at the top of your edit screen). We're glad to have the information either way. Recent edits are patrolled by regular contributors to deal with issues like touting, and Moroccan articles probably deserve extra attention for that. Have a great trip in Morocco, and keep us posted! Ground Zero (talk) 11:56, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
Are those "dessert tours" or "desert tours"? I'd love to go on a dessert tour, were I not already so overweight. :) K7L (talk) 14:34, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
See The traveller comes first and Wikivoyage:Be fair; you should definitely write what you as a traveler have encountered and experienced, because this is what other travelers reading Wikivoyage will encounter and experience when they go to Morocco. Morocco sadly has more than its fair share of various touts (at least this was my experience in Tangier two years ago), so I wouldn't interview someone selling something (be it hotel rooms, stuffed toy camels or sunglasses) and tell them about Wikivoyage. --ϒpsilon (talk) 10:38, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
Second hand sources can be very useful. If I eat at a restaurant I ask others around me if their food is good. If I am on a tour, I check that others paid the same as me, as I might have paid too much. If the second source is your spouse or fellow travellers, you trust, I would say you can use it. If you ask several people how much they paid for a taxi from the airport and they give similar replys, you could use that. If a location has few Stay entries and you meet someone that stayed a great place there and has the business card, you could at the place to WV. As for tour operators, if they are not original do not list them by name, but write something like: Around X square there are plenty of tour operators that will take you to the desert for Y dirhams. Mayby another traveller will find a better deal and update the listing. Elgaard (talk) 15:10, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
Asking other travelers and customers is of course a whole different thing, and such information probably can be added here. ϒpsilon (talk) 08:38, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

UEFA Women's 2017 template.[edit]

I have no idea whether this is still worth doing, as the championship is long underway, but I've made a mock-up of an event template for the UEFA Women's 2017 European Championship Football/Soccer, currently taking place in seven host cities in the Netherlands.

I doubt that it's useful to add at such a late stage, though if anyone thinks it should be added, then please go ahead. On the other hand, I haven't seen that many event templates (I've only seen the Sochi 2014 one since I started editing here), and am not even sure whether this is still something that is done in general. Please feel free to talk me up-to-date on that subject. The additional info about the event you would need is listed on the template page.

The event takes place until the 6th of August. Please ignore this subject when reading this after that date.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 16:58, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree that it is too late to usefully add a template - it would be best added 6-18 months before the event starts. I doubt that the championship has a big enough impact on the host cities to justify having a template - several stadiums used seat 10k spectators, whilst the smallest used for football in London 2012 Olympics seated 30k, with the rest 50k+. (The logo on the mock-up also needs to be changed or removed.) AlasdairW (talk) 21:36, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
I am aware of the logo needing a change - just to get that out of the way. It being too late to add the template is something we agree on, though I disagree that the impact on the host cities is minor. I myself live in Doetinchem, one of the host cities, and during the time that the event has been going on, I've seen loads more foreign tourists come to the city (the number has been doubled several times over), whereas usually around this time we're mostly seeing German and Dutch tourists. The span of the event however, is bigger than just the host cities. While the amount of occupied hotel rooms might not change a lot due to the low amount of hotels in, for example, Doetinchem, the greater area benefits from the event as well. Duiven, for example, has a very large hotel that houses many visitors as well as one or two teams. But yes, compared to the Olympics UEFA Women's is rather small, as are many more international and continental events.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 10:10, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
Wroclaw currently hosts the World Games and even though I live rather close to the Polish border (though thanks to disinvestment in the railway infrastructure you wouldn't know that from casual observation), I only know of it because there was an American Football tournament involved... Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:48, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
I think that the Olympics is the only event for which we have created templates. One of the uses of the template is to direct the reader to our article on the specific games, and I think that it is best not to create a template without first creating the Sochi 2014 games article explaining ticketing, special transport provisions etc. The Olympics causes serious disruption to the host city - new stadia being built, large areas blocked off behind security cordons, road closures etc - to the extent that some travellers may wish to avoid the city for the time around the games. AlasdairW (talk) 22:11, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Accessible editing buttons[edit]

--Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 16:56, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Best practices for adding climate data?[edit]

I'm planning a trip to Panama City and was disappointed to find no information on climate there. However. frustratingly this information is in a table over on the Wikipedia article. I figured maybe there was an easy way to define climate tables (e.g. Wikidata) but couldn't find an easy way to do so. Is this something a bot could do? e.g. copy and paste across climate data when none is available or something a Lua Template could do? Thoughts welcomed! Jdlrobson (talk) 21:32, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

I've seen articles in which the climate data are copied from Wikipedia with a citation, but the very best way to do this is to find some official climate data bureau that posts statistics and link it by way of citation for the chart. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:09, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Collaboration of the month and phone numbers[edit]

Having had the same collaboration of the month since September 2014 I think it is time for a new one. I would like to propose that we complete cleaning up phone numbers on the site. After 4 years of work by a small number of dedicated editors we have Category:Listing with phone missing country code down to just over 200 and Category:Listing with phone format issue down to 8 from what was originally in the thousands of pages. The bot is no longer a productive tool for what remains so this will be a manual task, but I think with a little extra help a very achievable one. Should with make this Collaboration of the month for August (and September if needed)?. --Traveler100 (talk) 08:21, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm fully in support of this telephone number initiative, but I doubt that naming it CotM would draw any interest to it that it wouldn't have accrued otherwise. Frankly, I honestly don't know why we haven't killed CotM yet. The fact that we have a supposedly monthly feature that hasn't been updated since 2014 is an embarrassment to our site. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:54, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Andre. We have enough trouble maintaing Destinations of the Month. Let's focus on that page. Colloborations can be managed through the pub. Ground Zero (talk) 17:55, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
You are both probably right, lets just remove CotM from the main page. --Traveler100 (talk) 20:56, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
I have looked a couple of pages on the list, and I think that quite a few of these numbers are ones which won't work from outside the country, e.g. the two on Pyeongchang 2018 or Melbourne/Inner north. Maybe we should add another keyword to list of descriptions which result in the number being ignored: "domestic" or something similar. AlasdairW (talk) 22:21, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Great Work, and I have been advocating for this since 2004 Wikivoyage_talk:Phone_numbers. A key for for local numbers is a good idea. And it could be used to show a diffent icon so WV users know which ones to use from outside the country. I also think we should have a keywork for toll free number, which also normally do not work internationally. Eg North American 800 numbers can be said to have a +1 prefix, but does not really work outside North America. Elgaard (talk) 23:30, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
I have added the option to add after a number (in country only) , this will remove the country code check. --Traveler100 (talk) 07:52, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
Have changed the collaboration of the month. If it works and other suggestions come forward later we can re-energies this, otherwise after a couple of months if little action, suggest removing the Cotm from the main page. --Traveler100 (talk) 07:54, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
A possible future collaboration, in a similar vein, would be fixing dead links: Category:Articles with dead external links. I've been fixing a lot of them, but often I come across one where I can't figure out if the POI still exists or not or where all the information online is in a language I can't read, so help from people with more local knowledge would be great. —Granger (talk · contribs) 10:54, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Great job by all involved, first time on the site, no phone format or country code error checks!!! --Traveler100 (talk) 18:37, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, well done everyone. And I agree with Mx. Granger on fixing the dead external links. But it will definitely take more than one month to clean the category (still over 5000 articles with dead external links). Perhaps CotM can alternate between a maintenance category and improving articles/content every month? Gizza (roam) 22:23, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Sweden's new page banner doesn't show up[edit]

I made a new page banner for Sweden. On my computer, it does not show up, in spite of page refreshing and new edits. Can you see it? /Yvwv (talk) 20:12, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

A hard reload made the trick. /Yvwv (talk) 20:13, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Wikivoyage for local[edit]

Love the Wikivoyage idea! Great for tourists to get around. Is there a similar project for locals to share tips, tricks and best experiences? --Orschiro (talk) 09:44, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

We certainly appreciate and encourage local knowledge, but keep in mind that the traveler comes first Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:14, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
Sure! Is there a sister project for locals? --Orschiro (talk) 15:39, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
There is not, but I am not entirely sure what you think such a project would do / try to accomplish... Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:53, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
For instance, a tourist is not interested in where to find local traditional shops that provide general high quality goods or services for the household. Locals, however, are. Hence, sharing best practices and knowledge on good alternatives to the mainstream, essentially. --Orschiro (talk) 17:54, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
This might be what you're looking for (not a sister project but an unaffiliated wiki): https://localwiki.org/Granger (talk · contribs) 15:59, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
Thanks! Looks interesting. Would be nice to see this under the Wikimedia umbrella for it to gain critical mass. :-) --Orschiro (talk) 17:54, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
Since the four ways that you might be looking for that I can think of haven't been mentioned yet, I think I shall:
  1. We have some sort of a project for locals to help travellers visiting the place they live, or regions they know a lot about in general. Have a look at Wikivoyage:Docents for that.
  2. Aside from that, no-one is stopping you from working out some more in-depth travel guides in your own userspace.
  3. Furthermore, we are writing a travel guide on this project, and we want to tell our readers all about their destination of choice. Adding some quirky facts or trivia about the destinations you know a lot about helps keeping hold of their attention, so feel free to plunge forward.
  4. Lastly, and I am not too sure about this one myself, Trip reports might be an option to write, albeit one from a local's point of view. There aren't any of these reports yet, and I am not sure if this is a concept that was mocked up and then abandoned or something scrapped all-together.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 21:43, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
Thanks! I put myself up as a docent. :-) --Orschiro (talk) 03:54, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
There was a Wikivoyage:My Voyage but I doubt the person originally proposing this is still active. Is the trip reports category part of this? K7L (talk) 11:43, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
What's the idea behind? Don't fully understand the connection to my question. --Orschiro (talk) 13:00, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
@K7L: It seems that the trip reports are related to it, yes. The user responsible for My Voyage seems to not have been contributing to Wikimedia Projects since May of 2016 [1], so the project has basically stranded, though we might want to bring new life into it if people want it. I'll tag @Nicholasjf21: in case he still checks in every so often. He's most likely the best person to explain the thought behind the project.
@Orschiro: The question K7L asked was directed at me and the category I linked. The idea behind My Voyage for as far as I can see is to give Wikivoyagers the ability to report on their travels and make notes of what they've seen and done, seen as how some of us frequently hop across borders. It is however very much an unfinished and inactive project, so don't bother about it.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 16:53, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
I see, thanks. Still don't see how that fits here. I was asking about a Wikimedia Wiki for locals to share their knowledge with each other. Not tourists, not travelers who want to share their travel experience. :-) --Orschiro (talk) 19:01, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
I more interpreted your original question, Is there a similar project for locals to share tips, tricks and best experiences?, as a project within Wikivoyage. That lead to me bringing up Category:Trip reports as a possible way to for locals to contribute to Wikivoyage, which derailed to K7L bringing up Wikivoyage:My Voyage. The thread got a bit derailed is all.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 09:15, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
I appreciate your help! Let's leave it here for now and I will see myself how and where to best contribute. :-) --Orschiro (talk) 13:15, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

About printing articles[edit]

My teammate User:CKoerner (WMF) wants your opinions on mw:Reading/Web/Projects/Print Styles#Desktop Printing. He might not have realized it yet, but I'm absolutely certain that he wants to hear from Wikivoyagers about this.  ;-)

Comments on that talk page are probably the most efficient way to make sure that the whole team sees your views. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 21:03, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

I do! I just sent a little message to the wikitech-l mailing list to spark some conversation. Happy to have more folks involved. CKoerner (WMF) (talk) 21:06, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Outline Districts once more[edit]

So our list of outline districts has grown to almost 200 again. Now some of them are clearly clerical errors, where a region or city article has been labeled a district by mistake, but some are not and have sat at outline for years. I think there should be zero outline districts, as districtification should only be done and done if it is done in such a way as to produce usable or better district articles. The hurdle, after all, is low. A usable district needs nothing more than one listing each in eat and sleep and should there be no possibility for a listing in either of those categories a good reason and explanation for why the district borders have been drawn thusly (e.g. a district has a lot of sights but no hotels, but there are hotels in another district). We should keep in mind that our districtified cities are among the most high-profile and among those where sub-par quality is the most visible. Now I fear some of those district articles sit unedited, because none of our editors know the cities in question, but if more than half the districts of a city have sat at outline for quite some time, maybe it is time to do something about it, and if that means merging the districts into the city article, so be it. Also, if there are geo-coordinates somewhat plausible district boundaries can be drawn even by those who don't know the place... Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:58, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

In addition to the above, there are several existing distrification schemes that contain holes, overlaps or both. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:07, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
I don't think it's much of a problem if one or two districts are just outlines, but sadly it's not uncommon to see a whole stash of outline articles and a great deal of listings in the main article and every time it's frustrating to see that. Otherwise I completely agree with your points. One good thing is that some of these articles might fulfil usable status already but the editors have forgotten to update the status. And yes, while one likely cannot on one's own write up an article of a place one hasn't been to from scratch to Star, it's definitely not rocket science to (even greatly) improve such an article. I'm more and more tempted to write a w:For Dummies essay about the topic. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:42, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
There are places where what would be an obvious DotM candidate if it were guide is held back because some districts are still at outline. See Talk:Shanghai#Getting_to_guide.3F for one example. The Shanghai district structure already underwent one major revision; see Talk:Shanghai#District_changes.3F for the discussion. The current scheme has mostly one article per official district; see Shanghai#Districts for details.
Should the divisions be revised again? Perhaps consolidate some outline districts? Or is there a way to get those outlines up to spec? Perhaps a collaboration of the month? Pashley (talk) 18:32, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
It may just be my perception, but there seem to be a particular overhang of American cities represented on the "outline districts" list linked above.. Asian cities seem to not do so bad. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:49, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
The most are in Melbourne. I think that one problem is that a district often has enough See, Eat etc to be worthwhile, but may be lacking in Sleep listings. Often hotels are mostly found in a few districts of a city and may be completely lacking in others. I would prefer that we didn't simply list the only hotel in a district if it is not somewhere that would be worth listing if all the city hotels were together. I have wondered whether we would be better to have City/Sleep and put all the sleep listings (arranged by district) in the one article. This is how paper guidebooks tend to do, and I think is better for readers who may not be too fussy about the exact district that they stay in. AlasdairW (talk) 22:37, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

San Juan[edit]

Hobbitschuster and I have been discussing whether this city should have one article, or have district articles, but neither of us has been there. Input from others, especially from anyone who has been there, would be be appreciated here. Ground Zero (talk) 15:01, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Alpi Di Siusi / Seiser Alm article[edit]

I have been collaborating on a new article regarding the Alpi Di Siusi / Seiser Alm. This is based on an (automated) translation of a page from the German WV page as well as my own travel experiences to the region. I am requesting feedback on the page before I go live with it. I would also like some help from the German speaking contributors for some help with some of the more ridiculous translations that come from the automatic google translation. For example "Das Frühjahr beginnt dann, je nach der Höhenlage, erst im April oder im Mai, in den Tälern auch schon etwas früher, die Saison für Skifahrer ist aber meist etwas kürzer als in den zentralen und nördlichen Teilen der übrigen Alpen" translates to "The spring begins then, depending on the altitude, only in April or May, in the valleys also somewhat earlier, but the season for skiers is usually somewhat shorter than in the central and northern parts of the other Alps"......which seems to imply that there is a ski season extending into spring....and since I'm not from the Alps, I have no idea whether this is really a sensible translation or not. Translating from the precision of the German language down to the ambiguousness of English also brings some challenges. For example, it looks like "Roterdspitze" (which should translate to the "peak of the Roterd mountain") should really be replaced by "Roterd", but I'm not sure if that really is the English equivalent. Feedback is welcome.

Thanks a lot for your work, and as I said on your talk page, welcome to WV. Google translate is useful but not too accurate and I would personally not translate articles from languages I don't have at least a basic understanding of.
I would translate the above passage as: "Spring begins only in April or May depending on the elevation, in the valleys a bit earlier (of course it's always colder up a mountain than in a valley below). In general, however, the skiing season is a bit shorter than in the central and northern Alps. (also not ridiculous, snow doesn't melt in an instant in the Alps and other colder climates like up here in Finland, hence skiing might certainly be possible even if the calendar says spring)". The mountain you can call Roterdspitze; translating something into English will result in names that a reader/user of the article won't find on a map which will lead just to confusion.
Finally, one of my pet peeves; we don't use Wikipedia style references on English Wikivoyage. --ϒpsilon (talk) 19:06, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
Looks good. I see you have two 'get around' sections. I think the first one should probably be called 'get in' Drat70 (talk) 00:58, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
Update: moved to main WV area. Thanks for all the feedback! Rsilvia77 (talk)

"Drink" for venues not serving alcohol[edit]

I've noticed that a lot of pages, particularly those in Islamic countries have "drink" sections full of tea-houses, orange juice stalls etc. Basically anywhere that sells drinks.

Am I correct in the understanding that "eat" should be used for all food/drink listings; and that "drink" is reserved for licensed venues/bars/nightclubs?

If a town has no nightlife, licensed venues or off-licenses shouldn't the "drink" section simply be omitted? That way all city articles have the same format

I checked the templates page for guidance but it wasn't specific on the issue

--Willthewanderer (talk) 11:19, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

I think the 'Drink' section is largely used (and primarily intended for) for bars where alcohol is served, and probably reflects the Western biases of the original travel guides used here. I don't think there is an issue to list other kinds of drink, such as coffee and tea houses. Even in Amsterdam#Drink it goes the other direction and has venues with (legal) drugs but no alcohol. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 11:53, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
I interpret "Drink" as being the section for anyplace that is more about drinks than food. That includes bars that serve bar food (wine bars that place an equal emphasis on food and drink are a gray area), tea houses that also serve various kinds of savory and sweet food to accompany the gourmet teas, and coffee houses that also serve a few sandwiches and desserts. I would also include juice bars among the listings, if any are worthy of listing. My neighborhood, Manhattan/East Village, has become a major center not only of bars but also juice bars and tea houses; all worth listing should be listed in "Drink". Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:27, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
If a place is more about drinking (including coffee houses, juice bars etc.) than eating, I too put the establishment in Drink rather than in Eat. ϒpsilon (talk) 12:32, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
"Drink" is also the place where I would include concerns about tap water or advice on locally prevalent soft drinks Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:25, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
"That way all city articles have the same format" - why would you want that? The flexibility is part of the beauty of our system, IMO. What makes sense for one article may not make sense for another, and that's fine. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:02, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
It's quite apparent (if you delve into the original discussions) that the original intention here was 'Restaurants' -> 'Eat' and 'Nightlife' -> Drink. We can blame either the western bias, or the imperative bias for having Juice Bars in that section. --Inas (talk) 23:11, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
Lots has changed since the original discussions. I don't see where the problem is in handling non-alcoholic drinks under "drink"... Hobbitschuster (talk) 07:18, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
No problem. It's just a little odd. If you look at any of the traditional guides (on which this one is modelled), you'd normally find food and drink in one section, and nightlife in another. Because in nine out of ten cases, the same places actually serve both food and associated drinks, milkshakes, coffee, juice, coke, etc. --Inas (talk) 11:04, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
A guide could be organized that way, but if you wanted to change this one to conform to that model, it would take so much unnecessary work that I can't see the point of it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:36, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
I was just more curious how so many editors use the section differently, I just want people reading the articles to know where to look for things.

But often if the "drink" section is used for drink-oriented places and article ends up with this huge list of WP:yawn places and the one or two nightlife venues get lost in that. Sometimes just having the "drink" section not empty would be tempting, but if there is actually no nightlife or maybe nobody has found any this is in fact a more valuable commentary --Willthewanderer (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Quite often, the only business peddling "drink" in a small town is also selling food or lodging; that would leave the section legitimately empty as we usually prefer to list a business only once. Nothing wrong with that, and it doesn't mean that there is truly nothing. K7L (talk) 00:03, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
I was wondering on how to use the drink section while reading/working on articles of places which are famous for specific non-alcoholic drinks. (e.g. tea or coffee). See for instance Vienna/Innere_Stadt#Drink which kind of makes sense as Vienna is famous for it's café culture. And in this case it's also really clear, as it has 'café', 'bars' and 'nightlife' sections. But of course it's not very clear, as the cafés are also known for their desserts, so this whole section might also go into 'eat'. I've seen the same done in other articles, such as the tea section in Singapore/Chinatown#Drink, however here I don't think this would fit into the 'eat' section as this is obviously centred on the drink and there might not even be food. And then there is Uji, I wanted to add a couple more tea houses to the article, but wasn't sure where. As they mostly also sell food or tea, it could go either under 'eat' or 'buy' as well. However this town is really famous for its tea, so it would IMO better fit into the 'drink' section, together with a note that there is not much nightlife. Drat70 (talk) 01:09, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
I think we should all use our own judgment on places that could go in 2 or 3 sections, picking the one that corresponds to whatever we feel they emphasize most or are most famous for. And then in that listing, of course whatever else they do should be mentioned in "content". Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:06, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Share your thoughts on the draft strategy direction[edit]

At the beginning of this year, we initiated a broad discussion to form a strategic direction that will unite and inspire people across the entire movement. This direction will be the foundation on which we will build clear plans and set priorities. More than 80 communities and groups have discussed and gave feedback on-wiki, in person, virtually, and through private surveys[strategy 1][strategy 2]. We researched readers and consulted more than 150 experts[strategy 3]. We looked at future trends that will affect our mission, and gathered feedback from partners and donors.

In July, a group of community volunteers and representatives from the strategy team took on a task of synthesizing this feedback into an early version of the strategic direction that the broader movement can review and discuss.

The first draft is ready. Please read, share, and discuss on the talk page. Based on your feedback, the drafting group will refine and finalize this direction through August.

  1. Cycle 1 synthesis report
  2. Cycle 2 synthesis report
  3. New Voices synthesis report

SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 16:11, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

Technical question[edit]

The admins of the website "The Israel Travel and Bicycle Maps Website" (http://israelhiking.osm.org.il/), whom specialize in developing and sharing different open source maps in Hebrew which are presented as different layers above the original map layer from OSM, have experessed interested creating a map layer based on all the listings of the Hebrew Wikivoyage (they already have a map layer one can use to visually see wherever across the globe places exist which already have articles about them at the Hebrew Wikipedia).

They haven't tried to create this map layer yet, but as far as I understand it , this might be difficult to do since, unlike Wikipedia, where individual articles have a geo location... with Wikivoyage (although we have geo locations for individual articles, that are mostly about bigger regions) they are probably mostly interested in getting the geo locations of the listings (See, Do, Buy, Eat, Drink, Sleep), which as far as I understand are mostly stored within thousands of different articles.

Is there any way they would be able to access one local Wikivoyage file which contains all the geo locations of all the Hebvoy lightnings? or is there any other technical way they would be able to use this info in order to produce a layer with all the Hebvoy listings ? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 03:04, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

@ויקיג'אנקי: I'm confused: Why would a single geo coordinate be easier to scrape than the structured listings in all our individual {{See}} and {{Do}} templates? Can you point us to any of their conversations? Since a lot of Israelis know English, I imagine that we could talk with them about it. —Justin (koavf)TCM 03:19, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
I have just invited their developers to participate in this discussion. I guess what I am asking, what would be the easiest way to produce a map layer that would have all the Hebvoy listings that have coordinates? (I assume that there is one main file generated monthly by the Wikimedia Foundation, which contains basically all this info, which they would be able to work with.... right?) ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 03:28, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
@Koavf:Our goal is to show individual "See" and "Do" POIs on the map with links to the appropriate place in the relevant Wikivoyage article.
As far as I understand, there is an API for geo-searching articles (for example [2]). There is also an API for POIs, such as "See" and "Do", on a page-by-page bases (for example [3]). The API also allows combining the two queries, using one as a pageids generator for the other [4]. In any case, the geo-search is limited to a 10000 meter radius.
Alternatively, the global list of Wikivoyage articles is available from Wikimadia Toolforge. When using either the API or the Toolforge approaches, the client does not directly scrape Wikivoyage.
My question: Is there a way to get all POIs in an area larger than a 10000 meter radius, such as all of Israel? 5.29.181.199 15:58, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
@5.29.181.199, ויקיג'אנקי: Hm. I'm actually not sure. The best bet I would have is generating a list of individual articles from Category:Israel and then combining data from that. The best I can do is @Pigsonthewing:, whom I have known to make some useful tools in the past and to post on phabricator: or maybe at mw:Maps. Have you tried any of those options yet? —Justin (koavf)TCM 16:26, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
@Koavf, Pigsonthewing: I could only find where bug reports for WikiMedia-API can be posted. Is there a place to post questions about the API? For example, using Category:Israel to find all applicable WikiVoyage articles is a great idea. It seems to require some coding on the client side as each API call lists just one level of sub-categories in the category hierarchy. I would like to ask the API experts if the tree traversal can be done on the server side. 5.29.181.199 07:53, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
@5.29.181.199: I would think that between mw:Project:Current issues, mw:Maps, and mw:Project:Support desk, someone could give an intelligent answer to this. —Justin (koavf)TCM 15:52, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

@5.29.181.199: Zeev, in order for you to be able to use ALL of the Destination + Itinerary articles on the Hebrew Wikivoyage (instead of only using Destination + Itinerary articles that are about locations in Israel, I created the following category on the Hebrew Wikivoyage, which I am hoping would be of use to you for this purpose. ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 20:15, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your help! I've created a GitHub issue for adding a WikiVoyage overlay to the map, in case you want to follow the progress. 5.29.181.199 21:17, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Listing editor for mobile view[edit]

Today I wrote a letter to Andyrom75. But I will call your attention to this problem, too.

Now about 50% of all accesses to Wikivoyage are done with mobile devices. But nobody can use the Listing editor.

The main reason is simple: Two necessary libraries are missing: jquery.ui.dialog and jquery.ui.autocomplete. Within the wikis, we cannot do anything to activate them.

There are three alternatives:

  1. Rewriting the complete editor with OOUI libraries. This means a really big effort.
  2. Rewriting the jquery libraries. This means a big effort, too. With a medium effort I could rewrite jquery.ui.dialog, but rewriting jquery.ui.autocomplete is really difficult.
  3. Trying to add both libraries, jquery.ui.dialog and jquery.ui.autocomplete in the Resource Loader package [By the way, gadgets are not working in mobile view, too]. These libraries are part of the desktop package but not of the mobile package. One cause of doing this is to reduce the traffic, on the other side both libraries are deprecated. We had to open a task at the Phabricator to let add both libraries to the mobile package. To do this we need a strong backing by the communities.

Jon Robson from WMF told me that /resources/Resources.php is to be adapted in the following manner:

return [
         'group' => 'jquery.ui',
     ],
     'jquery.ui.dialog' => [
+        'targets' => [ 'desktop', 'mobile' ],
         'scripts' => 'resources/lib/jquery.ui/jquery.ui.dialog.js',
         'dependencies' => [
             'jquery.ui.core',

The 'mobile' target is now missing.

Do you think that the Wikivoyage communities are willing to give us this backing for a task at Phabricator?

-- RolandUnger (talk) 06:35, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

I for one would love the listing editor to be available on mobile. But all that technical stuff went right over my head... Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:50, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
Also, while not connected to this on mobile, and it may not be the right place for asking this, would it be possible to be able to add "fax" to the desktop listings editor? For me anyway, I can only add a fax number if I am editing an existing listing, and there is already a fax number provided. But yes, a mobile listings editor would be great!  Seagull123  Φ  18:00, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
Fax is a default blank field if you use the wikitext editor. However as I last sent a fax more than 5 years ago, I doubt that there is much demand for it on the listings editor. I was beginning to think that it was about time to remove all fax numbers from the site, as they just look out of date. How many faxes have you sent in the last year? AlasdairW (talk) 22:41, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
I've sent zero faxes in the last year. The last was probably about five years ago. I suspect that use might vary regionally, though, so perhaps it's still useful? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:50, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
I'm seeing them still in use in certain narrow contexts, such as doctor's and solicitor's offices – possibly in the mistaken belief that a fax represents a tangible, scanned document of some legal weight. Nonetheless, actual fax machines (as opposed to fax modems) are dying due to widespread abuse to transmit unsolicited advertisements, which the victim has to pay to receive and print. Certainly it's a technology that deserved to die a quick, painless death by now (as scan-to-PDF e-mail produces better quality without the need to keep obsolete dial-up modems on-line) but it seems instead to be dying a very slow, very painful death. If a venue lists a fax number, I shall include it in the {{listing}}, but for most non-hotel travel listings it'd be rare to need to send fax to these venues. K7L (talk) 04:42, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
I think that mobile users even more than desktop users would like to have them on their mobile devices. When you are at a place that is not listed, it would be very helpfull to have a dialog to add such a place specially for inexperienced contributers. It might be helpfull too to have a button in that dialog for "current GPS position". --FredTC (talk) 11:08, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
Roland, we can surely back this proposal, but how? --Alexander (talk) 15:04, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Visayas regions[edit]

The Philippine island of Negros includes two provinces, but until 2015 the government classified them in different regions & we followed that usage here; we had a Negros article for the whole island, but it was a Wikivoyage:Extraregion. Then in 2015 the government changed their system, creating a separate w:Negros Island Region (NIR) & a bit later we changed our divisions to match; discussion at Talk:Visayas#Negros_Region.3F.

Now it appears the government have reversed themselves and abolished the NIR; should that imply any change here? Current discussion is at Talk:Negros#one_region.3F. It needs other opinions, especially from Filipinos or visitors who know the area. Pashley (talk) 18:02, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

How bureaucratic do we want to sound?[edit]

Have a look at these edits to Spain. They seem to violate our WV:Tone by being too bureaucratic sounding. On the other hand, we may want to be as accurate as we can on legal matters... Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:14, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I think the earlier text was about enough, although we could warn about carrying personal use amounts, and update the fines. Those who want to "facilitate consumption of drugs" should seek advice elsewhere, so legalese about that is unnecessary. I also think this is a matter where we do not want to sound accurate: those who want to stretch the limits need better advice than what we can give. --LPfi (talk) 17:56, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure the new edit added anything that was really needed, but certainly there was nothing wrong with it. While we don't want to sound bureaucratic, the "tone" is probably more related to he fun parts of traveling. The law is bureaucratic and talking about it in this way is probably for the best. --Willthewanderer (talk) 22:12, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

When I compare the two versions, the change that stands out to me is all about content: "possession and consumption of illegal drugs at private places is not prosecuted" vs "These rules are actively enforced." Before worrying about the tone, I think it is important to figure out the real risk of criminal charges. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:52, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
In fact, the rules in the two versions seem to be the same: the rules that are going to be enforced in the latter version are about public places, not the private places where the former one says you are safe. As I read them, both say private consumption in private places is OK, while possession and use in public is not, and severely punished when not about small quantities and personal use. I do not know how one is supposed to get the drugs for personal use safely to the private place were one is going to consume them, but I do not think that is our problem. --LPfi (talk) 15:37, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
We could vary tone depending on context; Stay Safe and Stay Healthy sections should use serious wording, as well as topics such as Holocaust remembrance. More enjoyable topics such as shopping and nightlife can be described more casually. /Yvwv (talk) 03:41, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Displaying currency symbols[edit]

In the discussion about the symbol for the Bangladeshi taka, we found there are sometimes problems displaying "৳", so instead we're using "Tk", which is also commonly used in the country. In a similar discussion about the Armenian dram, it seems that "Դ" is commonly used. Are there any problems with displaying it? If so, it may be better to spell it out as "dram", but it would be best if we could use the symbol that travellers will see in the country. @Ceever: @LtPowers: @Hobbitschuster: Ground Zero (talk)

Well in the above text I am not having display problems (Ubuntu, Firefox) Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:52, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
I do not see and display problems either. Does this display - ৳ - also show a problem? Or how about using {{BDT|2}} to get ৳2--Traveler100 (talk) 21:37, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
The symbol shows up fine with Google Chrome on Windows 7 as well. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:54, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
I suppose using the template is safer than using the character directly. It gives those without the character in their font the possibility to hover to see the Tk "title". If this is a common problem we still leave some readers (who do not hover) confused. --LPfi (talk) 15:46, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
Since our correspondent on the ground in Bangladesh says that "Tk" is also commonly used, it would be easier to stick with that. Random contributors are unlikely to use the template. As for the Armenian dram, if there are no objections, we can start using the "Դ" symbol. Ground Zero (talk) 15:55, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
Could swap the display round to show Tk and on mouse over Դ. --Traveler100 (talk) 15:56, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't follow. We're talking about Bangladeshi Taka (Tk) and Armenian dram (Դ) as two different issues. One taka = 5.92 dram, which is probably not useful information, but I'll mention it anyway. Ground Zero (talk) 18:04, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
I suppose what was meant was swapping "৳" and "Tk", so that Tk was showed by default and "৳" as when hovering (it is the other way round now in the template). --LPfi (talk) 19:09, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Wikivoyage on Facebook[edit]

Ryan's apparently indefinite hiatus has included his resignation as an administrator for Wikivoyage's official Facebook page, leaving me as the only remaining active one. It probably shouldn't be that way. Does anyone else want in? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:40, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Anyone? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:33, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
Just curious given that I haven't checked out the WV FB page. How busy is it? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:51, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
I enjoy commenting on and liking the WV FB page posts. The workload seems manageable (three posts a month, one each on DOTM, OTBP and FTT). I can commit as long as there are other people available as a backup. My editing patterns are unpredictable and I cannot guarantee being active on the 2nd, 12th and 22nd of every month (which is when the posts seem to be made). Gizza (roam) 03:54, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
It's not a problem for me to continue to update the DotM/OtBP/FTT posts on our Facebook page. Ideally, though, these shouldn't be the only things our Facebook account posts. Wikivoyage:Social media prescribes that "posts may include... major feature updates to Wikivoyage and other interesting travel news or activities", and to that end there is a nominations page where we're supposed to suggest tidbits that might be rebroadcast on our social media accounts, but it hasn't seen any use for some time. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:32, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Why hasn't the Wikivoyage Pageview statistics Page been updated since July 23?[edit]

? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 17:29, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

@ויקיג'אנקי: Have you checked with the users at https://stats.wikimedia.org/#fragment-15? —Justin (koavf)TCM 17:34, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
@Koavf: which users exactly? (link didn't properly work). ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 18:34, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
@ויקיג'אנקי:Sorry, it's not on that page: Author:Erik Zachte, ezachte@### (no spam: ### = wikimedia.org) —Justin (koavf)TCM 18:47, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
I think it's some kind of stats database problem. They're working on it. See w:en:Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Pagecounts-ez dataset hasn't generated since JUL-23 if you're interested in this. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:23, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Idea: Currency and measurement templates[edit]

There is an endless debate about how to express currency, and measurement such as distance and weight. One option would be to use standardized templates. Instead of writing amounts of money in plain text, we could use the template {{Currency|USD|17}} which would return the text "$17" by default. A reader could use a script which would insert conversion to a currency of choice, returning for instance "$17 (14,38 €)". The same could go for metric and Imperial units. What do you think? /Yvwv (talk) 21:28, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I would only be keen on this if we could make the listing editor do this automatically. If it could detect which country the listing is in from the breadcrumbs and convert a listing price=$17 in the US to {{Currency|USD|17}}, and one in Australia to {{Currency|AUD|17}} then it would be great. Otherwise it would be irritating to replace one keystroke with seventeen. AlasdairW (talk) 22:12, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
I absolutely think that's a good idea plus we discussed storing conversion rates at Wikidata so that they will automatically update. —Justin (koavf)TCM 22:14, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
I think that readers don't use scripts. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:24, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
I also wonder whether it's a good idea in general. "A bus ride costs 0.867 <your home money>, and you need to have exact change" is not as useful as "A bus ride costs 1 <local money>, and you need to have exact change". How often would it actually be helpful to know your home currency instead of (rather than in addition to) the local cost? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:39, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
{{USD|17}} giving $17 has existed for a while now, but only inserted as test directly once so far in article. Used as part of the exchange rate tables when we centralized to rates editing. See {{Exchangerate}} and {{Exchangerate/list}} for more information. --Traveler100 (talk) 07:20, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
For measurements see Wikivoyage:Measurements, were some template such as {{km}} and {{ha}} are explained. For example {{km|2}} gives 2 km (1.2 mi) --Traveler100 (talk) 09:58, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Russian or Ukrainian[edit]

Is anyone familiar with these languages? These edits by a new editor appear to me to be converting the translations from the Latin alphabet to the Cyrillic alphabet from from Russian to Ukrainian. Is this an appropriate change for a city in eastern Ukraine? Isn't Russian the principal language there? Perhaps someone more familiar with the region could weigh in. Ground Zero (talk) 02:46, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

It is not an easy question. Whereas Russian is the main spoken language in this area, Ukraininan is the only official language, and its usage has been enforced recently. Ideally, both Russian and Ukrainian translations should be kept, but this renders the listings too long in general. --Alexander (talk) 07:15, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
I think that as the traveller comes first, the solution of keeping the Russian and adding Ukrainian is the best one, regardless of length, and it's the one I suggested at User talk:Dƶoxar. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:39, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Does such a tool/bot exist or can it be created?[edit]

For the purpose of exporting+translating A LOT of content from the English Wikivoyage to the Hebrew Wikivoyage by myself, I need a simple tool/bot which would enable me, by a push of a button, to completely erase/clean the content that currently exists in 6 different parameters in all of the Listing templates on any given page I will import/translate from the English Wikivoyage to the Hebrew Wikivoyage (the removal of the content would of course be either done in my userspace on the English Wikivoyage or on my userspace on the Hebrew Wikivoyage... and not on any articles in the English Wikivoyage main space).

Having such a tool/bot would save me A LOT of time, as it would help me significantly speed up the process of exporting/translating Listings to the Hebrew Wikivoyage (at this point I import+translate all the listings manually, which means that I have to spend a lot of time manually removing the content from the following 6 parameters - Hours, Price, Content, Checkin, Checkout, Directions in all the listings I translate (I have chosen to remove the content in those specific parameters at this stage mainly because it takes a lot more time to translate the content for those specific parameters, and therefore, in order for me to be capable of importing/translating many prominent listings by myself, this is necessary... otherwise it would take me forever to import/translate all the most prominent listings in around 1,500 - 2,000 of the most sought after articles).

Do any of you know, by any chance, if such a tool/bot exists in mediawiki/Wikivoyage, if such a feature exists in any specific external software, or can if such a tool/bot can be created for this purpose? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 03:51, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

We'd normally do something like this with a semi-automated script, rather than a bot. I don't think any such script exists, but I believe that Wikivoyage:AutoWikiBrowser could handle it.
However: Hours, price, checkin, and checkout seem to contain pretty standardized content (for most of the entries). I wonder whether we could get a script that translated the simpler ones for you? Something like "11AM" could be converted into the Hebrew equivalent through a search and replace mechanism. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:43, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
I don't know if this is helpful, but when I translate articles from other languages in my user space I use the "Search and replace" function to change parameter names. Open "Advanced" in the editing window and click on the lone icon with a magnifying glass, paper and pen to the far right. Enter what you want to replace in the upper box and what you want to replace it with in the lower, click replace all and proceed with the next thing you wish to replace. Click save when you're ready (or make intermediate saves every now and then) example. Perhaps this could, to some extent, be used for what you need to do. --ϒpsilon (talk) 16:29, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing and ϒpsilon - I am already using a similar "find and replace" script on the Hebrew Wikivoyage (it was initially created for the Hebrew Wikipedia to fix all the common spelling mistakes) to translate all the templates + common parameters (and other common words/phrases) from English to Hebrew in one click of a button. In the last 4 months I have probably managed to import the basic "raw" listings, with the help of that script, of around 140 articles. (I manage to do around 1 or 2 articles per day usually). I am aiming to do this for around 1,500 articles, so I need a faster way to do it.

WhatamIdoing - trust me, most of the content in Hours, Price, Content, Checkin, Checkout, Directions varies in style and content, and therefore there is no reliable way to quickly translate the content for those parameters in one process (I will translate them all one-by-one in the future, once I finish importing all the basic "raw" listings.

Thanks for the tip... I'll try AutoWikiBrowser (can anyone confirm if it is indeed capable of automatically cleaning the content from certain parameters with a push of a button?). Do you by any chance know any specific user/s that might be able to create such a semi-automated script which would be used for this purpose?

ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 17:27, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

You can see a good example here of the extensive amount of content which I have to remove manually when cleaning the content from the parameters Hours, Price, Content, Checkin, Checkout, Directions - from a 98,076 BYTES article to a 60,892 BYTES article. ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 17:41, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
This is the article I am working on today... so I still plan to translate all the names of the places in all the listings before the day is over (from English to Hebrew). ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 17:44, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
Impressive working, I must say! If all else fails, some text editors (for programmers?) might allow more advanced searching and replacing text, say between every "checkin=" and following "|". ϒpsilon (talk) 18:26, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
Which specific text editor has such a feature? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 18:53, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
Sorry, I've no idea, but as replacing parameters is probably something many programmers (among others) need to do on a daily basis, I'd imagine a functionality like this has to be present in some text editors (tried to google it but didn't found anything). ϒpsilon (talk) 19:20, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
vi and emacs are the classic ones in Unix, and yes, they do regular expressions. Then there are sed & al, which are made for automated edits. At least emacs has keyboard macros (in addition to more advanced programmable ones; keyboard macros seem to suffice for this task). Learning one of these editors well does take some time, so not necessarily worth the effort for one project, but they are really efficient when you know how to use them. Regular expressions are a concept on its own, usable in many contexts. --LPfi (talk) 21:00, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
@ויקיג'אנקי: I know that this can be done with regular expressions but I'm pretty ignorant of how that works. I've fiddled around with them in AWB before but only with help. I imagine that someone can help you there. —Justin (koavf)TCM 20:07, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
An alternative might be to comment out the text that you don't want. You could use search and replace to change hours= to hours=<!-- and }} to -->}} , or do this on a entry by entry basis and change some of the | to -->| . I also recommend looking into good text editors that let you record macros - I use pspad - a macro can be used to insert a comment start after hours= and then jump to the end of the line and insert a comment end. You may also be able to do this with a word processor Word or Libre Office etc. AlasdairW (talk) 20:47, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

On de-WV they talk a lot about Wikidata integration of their listings (presumably creating a Wikidata field for the opening hours and so on) but don't ask me about technological details... Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:20, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

The only real solution I found so far[edit]

Thanks for all the tips given above. Unfortunately, none of the above tips are relevant for this (I actually don't know about AWB since I don't got access/permission to use it)... as I need to be able to easily only "clean" the content of six parameters - Hours, Price, Content, Checkin, Checkout, Directions (while any sort of global "search and replace" would replace everything in the code (so, for example, while it is easy to change the parameter "hours=" to "hours= <!--", it is almost impossible to change the "|" to "--> |" only at the end of those six parameters.

After searching for a solution on Google I came across the following recommendation for anyone using Notepad++ to accomplish this. While this solution is a bit more complicated than one click and done (it involved probably around 10-15 clicks AND paying A LOT of attention to see that nothing of value was erased, YET, this actually helps cut down the time involved in importing articles that contain a lot of listings). ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 17:11, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

In emacs I'd use a keyboard macro that would search for the first of the keywords, move beyond the "=", mark that point, search for the "|" and delete back to the mark, then search for the next keyword etc. (in practise, I'd put the first search last, so that I can see what is going to get deleted before pushing Go). Where there are several listings after each other, so that I can see that nothing goes wrong, I'd give a repeat number (^Shours^U5^X^E would run the macro on five listings starting at an "hours"; ^S=ctrl-S etc.). With regular expressions you can avoid having to check every match, but you have to think hard instead. For your job thinking hard and using sed (or awb or perl or whatever) would probably be the most efficient solution. --LPfi (talk) 21:30, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
Removed comment as issue was found -- Matroc (talk) 12:47, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
You don't need to use an offline editor to use regexes. Use the 2010 WikiEditor, click "Advanced", find the find-and-replace icon (right edge of toolbar in LTR languages) and tick the box to "Treat search string as a regular expression". WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:08, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Userpage script[edit]

You could try the script at User:WOSlinker/comment listings.js. I've set it to only work on userpages. -- WOSlinker (talk) 11:23, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

@WOSlinker: Thank you so much!. בזכותך חודשים רבים (ואולי אפילו שנים!) מהחיים שלי לא יוקדשו יותר להעתקה + הדבקה בלבד (translate sentence with Google Translate to see funny comment). ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 03:08, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
The first article on the Hebrew Wikivoyage which was significantly expanded with listings that were automatically fixed and imported thanks to WOSlinker's new script ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 03:11, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Edit summaries[edit]

Hi, everyone. One topic that comes up a lot in discussions with new users is edit summaries (namely, the need to post one to credit quoted material from Wikipedia or to explain a non-obvious deletion). However, I don't know of any link I can include to a page or section of a page that explains what an edit summary is or how and when to write one. Is there anyplace that currently deals with edit summaries? If not, we should create such a page or section. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:04, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

There is a short description on Wikivoyage:How to edit a page. It should be changed to reflect current (best) practices. I added a section on attribution with permanent links. --LPfi (talk) 19:28, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
w:Help:Edit summary has some useful content, although it doesn't mention using the summary for attribution. I think that this wikipedia article could usefully be used as a starting point for our own. AlasdairW (talk) 20:56, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
LPfi, thanks for helping with that. AlasdairW, my feeling is that w:Help:Edit summary is way too long for our purposes, though whatever truly useful content we can glean from it is fine, because why reinvent the wheel? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:11, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Botched disambig for San Jose[edit]

I created San Jose (disambiguation) because I though such a page hadn't existed. Turns out it did under San Jose now I can neither move it to where it belongs, nor raise the issue on the talk page, as that redirects to San Jose (California)'s talk page. Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:45, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Hobbitschuster - I commented out the redirect - should be able to move now? Please verify San Jose (disambiguation) -- Matroc (talk) 02:28, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
When you get redirected, there should be a link to the redirect page at the top of the page, before the content. Why was there none on the talk page? I was able to get there and comment out the redirect by using the URL https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:San_Jose&redirect=no (that URL should have been in the non-existing link, cf other redirected pages). --LPfi (talk) 05:46, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
When a redirect has been edited, it cannot be deleted by non-administrators, and thus nothing can be moved by ordinary users to replace the redirect. Also otherwise only the target of the redirect can be moved there, so administrator intervention is needed when a move involves more than moving back and forth among alternative names. --LPfi (talk) 05:51, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
I'm a kind of lost here, I'm not sure what you're trying to do. Do you want to delete "San Jose (disambiguation)"? If so, I don't think that's necessary. "San Jose" is a disambiguation page, so just redirect "San Jose (disambiguation)" there.
Or do you want to move "San Jose" to "San Jose (disambiguation)"? In that case: have an admin delete "San Jose (disambiguation)", and then move "San Jose" to "San Jose (disambiguation)". Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 06:00, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
It is no problem to have "San Jose" as the page with a list of destinations, but probably a good idea to have a redirect to it from San Jose (disambiguation). The disambig option in the page banner will then work. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:11, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
When "X" is a disambiguation page, it's probably best to always have "X (disambiguation)" redirect there. That way, people don't need to guess or check if there's a "(disambiguation)" in the title before linking there, and people won't think that not a disambiguation page when there really is. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 07:13, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
I think the disambiguation should always be under x(disambiguation). Hobbitschuster (talk) 09:20, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
That may be what you think but recommend discussing first, there are a few thousand pages like this. Also cutting pasting over a redirect all contant of another page is not the way to go. Page should be moved so that edit history is preserved. This may be a good idea but should have some agreement and be done correctly. --Traveler100 (talk) 16:15, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Locomore, Leo Express and Flixbus[edit]

Okay the following may be a bit complicated and it has implications for Rail travel in Germany, Intercity buses in Germany and destination articles along the Berlin-Wolfsburg-Hannover-Frankfurt-Stuttgart corridor.

Locomore has gone bankrupt after barely five months of operation in May - they just had too little capital to absorb the early losses, especially competing head on with DB who simply added departure right around the time Locomore trains left/arrived on several of the stations. But Locomore has since been in talks with various national and international companies to restart service in some form or sell off assets to cover debts. Well, Leo Express (a Czech private rail and bus operator active for years in Central and Eastern Europe) expressed interest and a deal was struck. In seemingly unrelated news, Flixbus had long registered an internet address under "flixtrain" and recently filed the paperwork necessary for a subsidiary under that name to run trains. Well Leo Express has a pre-existing cooperation with Flixbus and thus the tickets will now be available on the Flixbus website apparently with a symbol indicating that a train and not a bus is booked. Locomore had at the time of its launch announced that it had already secured "dibs" on several other routes (if you want to run a train on German tracks you have to pay DB Netz and tell them when and where and how, the latter well in advance) and it is possible that Flixbus/Leo Express will expand in the future. At any rate, trains are planned to run again starting August 24 of this year and tickets can already be booked. Hobbitschuster (talk) 10:15, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

A shame that Locomore did not work but the journey time was a little long and not having enough capital to get through the first few years in business shows some lack of business sense. Anyway, all that is relevant for the articles is what routes and services are currently running and links to the correct web site. Who owns what and their economic history is something for Wikipedia. --Traveler100 (talk) 16:22, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
Booking is already possible via the Flixbus website. The first few tickets reportedly sell for 9,99€ Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:08, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

I made two small edits to Template:Extraregion.[edit]

I made two small edits to Template:Extraregion. That's a rather important template, so I'd like you guys to look it over, make sure I didn't make a mistake or something. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 02:12, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

When creating a redirect is warranted[edit]

Please see User talk:AndreCarrotflower#Virginia's redirect. and help resolve this dispute between myself and Emmette Hernandez Coleman. (Ikan Kekek and Ground Zero, I'm pinging you guys because off the top of my head, you seem like the ones most likely to have an opinion on this.) -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:40, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Wrong scale?[edit]

Someone at the Hebrew Wikivoyage just mentioned that the scale of this map is wrong since the size of that area is 7,037 sq km. Is he/she correct? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 13:14, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I tried to check this using the distance tool on Google maps on the highways. It looks to me as for the big map, the 20 km are actually rather 10 km. The 5 km on the small map look okayish. Drat70 (talk) 13:56, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

How does one insert non-English Wikipedia links?[edit]

So I have seen some listings having Wikipedia links to other language editions. How is that done? I was trying to do this in the Erfurt article but just couldn't find a way to do it... Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:15, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

w:de:Erfurt for example. ϒpsilon (talk) 20:17, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
In a listing, though? I want the listing with number 7 here have this as its WP link. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:52, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
I think that in a listing a reader would expect the W logo to take them to the English Wikipedia. I think that we should only link to other language WPs in a way which is clear to the reader that it is in another language, and I am not sure that policy would allow that. (A special case is the Simple English Wikipedia, which might be useful for a very few travel topics.) AlasdairW (talk) 22:23, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Requests (brought from Wikimania)[edit]

Hi there. I've just arrived back home from Montreal. Had some nice talks and meetings. One big fan (his whole family) of Wikivoyage visited me at the community village. People like the listing and map features as well. Congratulations to all of you guys. I have three short points to be discussed here in your community. Got two messages on the poster:

  • Please add more links to Wikipedia
  • Please add information about accessibility to your listings as well as information for all disabled people (e. g. blind and deaf travellers)

I talked with Ziko about travelling information for kids on wikivoyage. It's missing on almost every article (at least on WV/de as far as i know). -- DerFussi 11:20, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

I must ask what is meant with "more links to Wikipedia"? We have a link in the sidebar for every article where a WP article exists. But as for inline links our policy on Wikivoyage:Links to Wikipedia is unfortunately rather strict and there'd have to be a consensus to change it, which has been elusive in the past. Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:01, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
As for accessibility, you are of course right, but I fear this just reflects the demographics of our userbase... Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:02, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
As for children, we have Travelling with children and the likes of Venice with children, but I think having a "for children" subsection in the see or do sections might be better for medium size destinations than dedicated x with children articles... Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:03, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
A "for children" subsection to See and Do would work for attractions directed towards children, but also e.g. many ordinary museums do a good job, and moving those to a separate children's section is wrong. A "one floor is planned for children, with possibility to e.g. build brick walls and timber houses or equip and ride or drive a full-size wooden horse" would suite, and perhaps "the exhibits are made more lively by a story of a 9-year boy experiencing the places in their heyday", but sometimes it is difficult to describe the place such that parents can deem whether it suites their children, at least without being overly wordy. And then we have all the Cope issues. --LPfi (talk) 15:32, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
Most printed travel guides solve this problem by using small icons 'children-friendly'. Alternatively (or additionally), a separate subsection can be created, where children-friendly places are listed (in prose) explaining how they cater to children. --Alexander (talk) 16:20, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
That may be so,but good prose in the content tab should enable all our readers - including those with children of varying age - to make an informed choice as to whether they would like to spend their time (and perhaps money) at a certain place. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:12, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
People without kids don't need to know details of kid entertainment, and people with kids need a quick overview of 'where can I go with kids'. The solution I menioned will address both aspects, and it proved to be very useful in printed travel guides. On the other hand, cluttering listings with additional specialized information is hardly useful to anyone. --Alexander (talk) 18:57, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
The needs of a one year old are vastly different from the needs of a teenager. Plus there is stuff that adults enjoy that can be fun for kids (and vice versa). Have a look at the listing for the "phaeno" in our guide on Wolfsburg. Would you rather we segregate it off into a "for kids" section? Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:08, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
Science museum is an obvious case. You don't need any description to understand that it will be interesting for kids. I am talking about non-obvious cases. --Alexander (talk) 06:47, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
A long time ago, the Wikivoyagers of that age decided against having a separate section for LGBT travellers on the basis that most of what they are interested in is the same as everybody else, do we identify in the listing if a venue caters specifically to LGBT people. I think this approach works well for child-friendly listings. There are some that will be of no interest to people without children (a playland, for example), but most (parks, museums, etc.) are of interest to those with or without kids. Parents know what to look for when reading travel guides. Ground Zero (talk) 21:38, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
They do not always know what to look for, and that's exactly the point. In a history museum, you never know how academic it is, whether it simply displays objects with long and boring descriptions, or it also features small games and quests where kids receive a list of questions to find answers and "win" a small prize in the end. Technically, such an information can be added to the listing, but it will make the listing longer, while being relevant to a fraction of readers only. In my opinion, it is better to have a 'children-friendly' icon and, if necessary, a separate section saying that museums XX and YY offer games, whereas museum ZZ offers a quest for children. This will save a lot of space and largely improve navigation for a city with 20 or 30 museums, where you have to decide which of them are suitable for kids. --Alexander (talk) 12:12, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
I suppose the optimal solution varies, depending on destination, content and editor. The symbol probably says somebody at the museum actually thought about children, but not much about whether the games/quests/whatever suite my children. Similarly about mentioning what museums have them in a separate section. A sentence or two about what a specific museum does well for them is much better, and I think it is not too much in the listing, and useful to have there if most museums do something well, but in different ways. The academic vs innovative may be of interest also for childless adults. Then of course also mentioning audio guides, accessibility etc. makes it not one or two sentences but perhaps five or more. If we want to cater to different groups we should still afford that. On the other hand, if the city has three or five top sights for children, and many museums that are hyper academic, then a Children subsection might be a better solution. --LPfi (talk) 10:58, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
About the links to Wikipedia and RelatedSites, what do you think about the external links template proposal from Wikivoyage_talk:External_links#Update proposal. --Zerabat (talk) 17:21, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Mapframes klutzing up due to airport markers[edit]

Have a look at the maps in articles like Erfurt or Kleve. They are zoomed out way too much and if you add a "zoom" parameter, it zooms into empty fields between the city and the airport... How do we fix this? Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:48, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Add coordinates (just the values, not "lat=" and "long="!) for a random location at where you want to have the map zoomed in a little more, like I did in Kleve. These coords will then become your new map center and you can add a zoom parameter if you need the map to be zoomed in or out around that point. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:25, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
Confirming above. "If the (lat, long) and zoom are omitted, {{mapframe}} alone will now default to a scale and position that fits all of the current article's POIs onto the map. These defaults are usually adequate." from Wikivoyage:How to use dynamic maps -- Matroc (talk) 03:16, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Growth of the site[edit]

It's my perception that the number of edits on this site has grown quite a lot. A few years ago, it used to be fairly easy for me to patrol the entire site every day. Now, there are so many edits that the result of trying to do this has me, in Emmette Hernandez Coleman's words, "working too hard". (I realize there was a somewhat different context for his comment, but it fits here.) I think that's wonderful and something to celebrate! But what it also means is that anyone wanting to patrol recent changes to articles will now have to either pick some areas to keep track of or do ad hoc work, as the spirit moves them.

So two questions come to my mind: (1) If you're someone who likes to patrol recent changes, do you have a strategy for what subject matter or types of edits you concentrate on? (2) You don't need to be an admin to patrol changes. Do we need more admins, or do we need more people taking it upon themselves to patrol changes? Either way, I think we should remember to thank everyone who does this work recreationally, because it's so important for the quality of the prose on Wikivoyage. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:10, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I usually just patrol things on my rather large watchlist and/or look at new user contributions. Pashley (talk) 21:33, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
The problem when I patrol recent changes is that I tend to get sidetracked a lot... Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:43, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
Not always a problem. I often look at linked article that haven't been edited in some time, start reading, and find problems that had been missed before. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:51, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
I always hide autopatrolled edits (the ones without red !'s next to them). -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:01, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
I normally ignore those, except in articles that are particularly interesting to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:05, 21 August 2017 (UTC)