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PLEASE, verify the GPS coordinates when copying Wikidata information![edit]

Dear all, please, I beg you to really put some additional effort into verifying (OpenStreetMap, Google Maps) that the GPS information copied from Wikidata is correct.

I see many listings being updated with the Wikidata code and consequently the GPS information being copied into Wikivoyage. E.g.

However, the GPS information on Wikidata, IMHO, is far from correct and of rather low quality. I actually trust Wikivoyage more to have more accurate GPS information. The problem is not using Wikidata, which in the future might correct the false GPS information. The sad thing is that we are deleting high quality information from Wikivoyage this way, instead of spreading it.

Therefore, in case you find the Wikidata GPS information to be incorrect, please head over to the relevant item and correct the GPS coordinates on Wikidata using "English Wikivoyage" as a reference.

Please, help to keep up the good data quality on Wikivoyage.

Many thanks, Ceever (talk) 21:39, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

I think that it is unfortunate that the listing editor only gives the option of updating all the fields using the Wikidata values, not just the empty ones. With large venues Wikivoyage may deliberately have different co-ordinates from Wikipedia - We may want to show where the entrance or ticket office is, and WP may want to show somewhere in the centre of the site. AlasdairW (talk) 23:21, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
I agree with AlasdairW. Is it possible to change the listing editor so that the "Update shared fields using values from Wikidata" button will only update empty fields? —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:04, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Btw, the marker/listing templates now do exactly this (automagically adds location/images from wikidata, if specified; doesn't override)... If we added also wikipedia/url autofetching, the 'update from wikidata' button would become obsolete. (talk) 06:23, 11 June 2018 (UTC), would it be technologically feasible to have a single click update button for Wikidata? I've made it a habit to fill in the Wikidata field of any attraction I add or edit, and noticed a lot of Wikidata records indeed have inaccurate coordinate information. I believe it wouldn't be a bad idea if the data flow could be bidirectional. ArticCynda (talk) 07:41, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
I guess anything is possible in the end, but I'm not sure wikidatians would like WV "autooverriding" their database. Who's to say WV coords are better than the ones imported from WP? I guess if we don't like the WD coords and they are somewhat correct (aka - are better the coords of center of the building, or of its entrance?), we should simply override in WV. Otherwise I'm sure WP:WV edit wars will ensue :) If the WD coords are completely off, like in this case, we should fix WD - it would also help fellows from DE/FR/... WV branches. (talk) 08:12, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Non-overriding updates would be a good place to start.
In the fairly rare case of desired differences (e.g., venue center vs entrance), I think that Wikidata can support multiple values, with qualifiers and rankings to identify why there are more than one. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:27, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
An extreme example is w:Caledonian Canal which runs for 60 miles from Fort Augustus to the outskirts of Fort William, and has listings in both, with the lat/longs being good locations to see the canal if you are in that town. The WD lat/long is 5 miles from Fort August. (The Fort William listing could be changed to be specific to a set of locks there.) AlasdairW (talk) 22:24, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
This doesn't surprise me at all. When Wikidata was introduced it was noted that this type of thing could happen very easilty because of multiple input sources and appears to prove Wikidata to be a tiny bit less reliable than one would have hoped. Double checking would be a good practise to follow. -- Matroc (talk) 08:24, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
And it gives credence to my earlier warning to be wary of too much integration with, and ceding too much control over our content to, an unrelated WMF project that doesn't necessarily share (or even have much familiarity with) our goals. I recently had to remove several Wikidata values from the Buffalo article because it made no sense to associate a specific set of geo coordinates to (in two cases) a local restaurant chain with multiple locations and (in the remaining case) an annual event whose venue changes every year. Until these issues get ironed out, I propose a moratorium on any further addition of Wikidata values to local listings. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:32, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
I think stopping adding is a little rash, but checking before changing and after adding I totally agree with. Even better fix the wikidata, which I have done a number of times. Particularly when totally wrong. --Traveler100 (talk) 18:14, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
👍 Ceever (talk) 18:33, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
Доверяй, но проверяй --Traveler100 (talk) 18:44, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
I wouldn't go as far as advocating a moratorium on adding Wikidata links, but would rather propose we make an effort to correct Wikidata in the process where necessary. That way, both WMF projects enjoy the benefits. ArticCynda (talk) 18:46, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
I can tell you people one thing; the coordinates given for Wildwood State Park in Wading River, New York are way off the coast of Long Island Sound(,-72.8107658/41,-72.8/@40.9672569,-72.9050227,11250m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e2?hl=en ), instead of the correct location, which should show up on that google map. ----DanTD (talk) 20:46, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Takes only a few seconds to correct, so I did! ArticCynda (talk) 07:28, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
👍 (talk) 09:22, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
One caveat to this: I've noticed that Google Maps gives me the GPS coordinates of the centre of the map instead of the GPS coordinates of the pointer that I searched for. I've had to move the location slightly off the map and then search for it in order to get even semi-reliable numbers that way. --Robkelk (talk) 16:01, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Wikidata - like Wikivoyage - is a wiki. If you see something wrong, fix it! Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:46, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Exactly. Category:Articles Geo different to Wikidata, regions not important but there a a good number of cities were either Wikidata coordinate is wrong or the Geo entry on Wikivoyage is wrong, or a little bit off. --Traveler100 (talk) 19:01, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
I had to manually update just about every single set of GPS coordinates (Not a long list) I got from Wikidata and Wikipedia's sets - sometimes the difference was a matter of blocks, sometimes the difference was a bit more than that. I will see if I can poke my nose into the source to see if I can help there. L. Challenger (talk) 10:22, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Maps presentation[edit]

The monthly metrics presentation is going on right now: The first presentation (after some quick notes) is about the map internationalization project. This is the result of six months of dev work that basically happened because the Wikivoyage core community banded together to make it #1 for the m:2017 Community Wishlist Survey. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:11, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

What questions concerning the strategy process do you have?[edit]


I'm Tar Lócesilion, a Polish Wikipedia admin and a member of Wikimedia Polska. Last year, I worked for Wikimedia Foundation as a liaison between communities and the Movement Strategy core team. My task was to ensure that all online communities were aware of the movement-wide strategy discussion. This year, my task similar. Phase II of the strategy process was launched in April. Currently, future Working Groups members are being selected, and related pages on Meta-Wiki are being designed.

I’d like to learn what questions concerning the strategy process would you like to be answered on the FAQ page? Please answer here, on my talk page, or on a dedicated talk page on Meta-Wiki. Thanks!

If you have any questions or concerns, please, do ask!

Thanks, SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 18:29, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Yet another proposal to tinker with Berlin districts. Please opine even if you do not know Berlin[edit]

So having a look at Berlin/East Central which I changed a bit b "giving" it Wedding and Gesundbrunnen (i.e. the pre 2001 Bezirk of Wedding), do you agree that it looks quite a bit "donuty" and that the map is a bit too "busy"? Those are the criteria I want you to apply when answering the question: Should this district be split into Berlin/Friedrichshain and Kreuzberg and Berlin/Wedding and Prenzlauer Berg? If you know Berlin, you can also based on other criteria, but I think my argument can be supported or opposed based on the map alone. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:14, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the map being "busy", but I'm firmly of the opinion that it's far more important for districts to make sense from a traveller's perspective (in a case like this one of a district comprising multiple adjacent neighborhoods, that said neighborhoods be related or similar to each other in some way that's interesting to a traveller or relevant to the reasons one would visit Berlin in the first place) than for a district to have a particular shape when viewed on a map. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:42, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
I agree with both of you. I agree with Hobbitschuster that I don't like the way it looks on the map, but at the same time I agree with AndreCarrotflower. I think that if there's another good way to do these districts that makes sense to the traveller, then go ahead, but otherwise let's leave it as it is. Which is more important: too many listings on a map or a traveller getting lost in the middle of a big city? Selfie City (talk) 18:47, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg are obviously a coherent whole. They may have been on seperate sides of the wall before 1990 and they may only be physically linked by the Oberbaumbrücke, but they share gentrification, leftist-green politics and the Gründerzeit buildings. Whether "Prenzlberg" and Wedding have much in common in 2018 I don't quite know. Note that Wedding/Gesundbrunnen were moved to East Central in a prior district reshuffle more or less on my unilateral decision (not that there was anybody saying "no" at the time, just not much input either way). Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:10, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
As for "busy map", it's a map with (especially in the Southern part) too much going on in it. You don't really get a good overview, because there are just so many listings and you have to zoom in quite a bit to even see a lot of the things... I fear this is also one of the downsides of adding metro lines; maps getting busier... Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:19, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
You could try changing the size, zoom, and shape of the map. Selfie City (talk) 19:20, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
That won't work, and part of the issue is the near donut shape of the district, which forces us to include lots of stuff on the map that isn't part of the district at all. Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:04, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
I think it would make a lot more sense for Prenzlauer Berg to become its own district. Globe-trotter (talk) 22:37, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
And what then about Wedding and Gesundbrunnen? Make them part of Prenzlberg? Or deal with them as part of another district? Its own district? Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:15, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I know practically nothing about Berlin — I'm sure there are some Wikivoyagers who know the city well. Selfie City (talk) 22:57, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

For this busy map - (1) reduce the stroke-width of rail lines (type=geoline) from 5 to 3 or set the stroke-width to 3 (This would help a little as size 5 is a bit much.) -- (2) Use of multiple mapframes using group and show parameters - which may not be acceptable in this instance -- (3) add option or a wrapper to change the point (marker-size) to small for the unique pages such as this might help as well. -- (4) I don't think that breaking up East Central Berlin further would be the way to go either. -- Just a few thoughts. -- Matroc (talk) 03:40, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
Yes, using multiple mapframe for different regions of the district would be a neat idea, maybe a little like the mapframes I made in Underground Railroad. Selfie City (talk) 15:50, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
If we're having multiple mapframes that seems to me like an admission in so many words that the district might be better off split... Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:23, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
In my opinion, multiple mapframes just make the travel guide look really professional, neat, and detailed. Selfie City (talk) 00:38, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
Also, do you mind if this is moved to Talk:Berlin? I think you've now reached people with this question, so we should put it there unless you still think some others will comment in future. Selfie City (talk) 00:42, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────And just to clarify — won't move until someone else agrees it should be moved. Selfie City (talk) 00:44, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

The marker concentrations indeed suggest that the current district has at least 2 hotspots of interest to the traveler, with both sufficient attractions and listings to justify separate distrit articles. I support Hobbitschusters idea of splitting the district, probably in a northern and southern half roughly through the middle. ArticCynda (talk) 09:21, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
I generally agree with User:Hobbitschuster that the current Berlin/East Central district covers too many (incoherent) parts of the city. In my opinion Wedding and Gesundbrunnen don't fit into the current East Central district (neither thematically nor geographically) - they fit much better with Moabit (which is currently in Berlin/City West). Alternatively, grouping Wedding and Gesundbrunnen with Prenzlauer Berg for sightseeing purposes is also conceivable, although I'm not certain about that. I am against having two dynamic maps in one district page, since this is not what I think wikivoyage readers would expect. Xsobev (talk) 11:49, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
So would you propose to add Wedding and Gesundbrunnen to City West (Prenzlberg certainly doesn't belong into any district with "West" in the name as it is east of the former border) or would you make a new district out of those two? And if so would Moabit and Prenzlauer Berg be added to that? I can see several of those working, but I think "City West" is already a rather expansive definition of the term as many West Berlin nostalgics would deny that Schöneberg is part of the City West... Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:55, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
My first suggestion was to create a new district with Wedding, Gesundbrunnen and Moabit (removing it from City West). The alternative suggestion was to create a separate district for Wedding, Gesundbrunnen and Prenzlauer Berg, resulting in a separate district for Kreuzberg and Friedrichshain. I have a slight preference for option 1, but this only partially solves the "busy map" problem. Xsobev (talk) 14:12, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
I like your first proposal. Any idea on a name for such a district? Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:38, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
It could be called something like "Mitte North" or "North Mitte", since all three areas (Wedding, Gesundbrunnen and Moabit) are part of the Mitte borough ( That opens the question of where to put Hansaviertel ... And before splitting, I would propose to copy-paste the contents relating to these areas into a sandbox page, to see if there is (or most likely will be) enough material to justify a separate district. Thematically they would fit together pretty well I think. Xsobev (talk) 21:16, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
I followed up on my proposal and here is the result: User:Xsobev/Berlin-Mitte-North. It does look quite empty. Adding Hansaviertel would fill the empty "do" section. There are places to eat in Wedding and Moabit, and to drink in Moabit, which are not mentioned in Wikivoyage. This sight could be added to the "see" section in Moabit. This lake could be added to the "do" section for swimming. Not sure if this is enough though. Xsobev (talk) 09:17, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
I would also tend to separate Prenzlauer Berg and Wedding. They are historically and geographically too different. I would even argue for a separate district for each Kreuzberg and Friedrichshain for similar reasons. Even if they share gentrification and the nightlife area on both sides of the Spree, they have historical, architectural (post-war buildings) and cultural differences and offer numerous and partly distant sights such that I would recommend a traveller to explore them on separate trips and days. But intuitively, I would detach the small "enclave" north of Elsenstraße (respectively inside the S-Bahnring) from Treptow-Köpenick and add it to one of both districts. A traveller will usually approach this little area around the Arena from Schlesische Straße and explore the connected cultural sights on both sides of the current Flutgraben border, but not when being on a daytrip for Köpenick and Müggelsee or Adlershof and Grünau. --Rio65trio (talk) 22:32, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Telegram channel for enwikivoyage[edit]

Do you have a Telegram channel for English Wikivoyage? --Zerabat (talk) 15:47, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Seems unnecessary since the service has seen a steep decline over the last 10-15 years. ArticCynda (talk) 22:12, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
Some of our articles still use it - ocean liners and RMS Titanic, for instance, and the whole heritage railways topic is steam-powered. K7L (talk) 23:35, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
I suspect that Zerbat is talking about rather than old-fashioned telegrams. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:57, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
Yes, you suspected right. There's no way I'd be talking about telegraphy nowadays. But by the way, it is still used to send private injunctions (legal stuff...), at least in some countries. Do you have a Telegram messenger group or feed? --Zerabat (talk) 00:20, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
It looks like a random messaging app abusing a well-known word. Is it big enough that you cannot ignore it or is there some specific reason to endorse it? --LPfi (talk) 10:53, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
The unfortunate naming will be too easily confused with telegraphy indeed, so I'd suggest choosing a more "universal" tool like IRC or XMPP (Jitsi, Pidgin etc.) that most people will know. However, I don't think there is a real need for this, the pub seems to be a better place to centralize discussions. ArticCynda (talk) 11:17, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Mapframe with Chrome shows world map[edit]

I have noticed that {{mapframe}} often, but not always, shows a map of the world instead a map of the article's title location when displayed in Chrome. On Chrome, {{mapframe}} shows a map of the world for the Orillia article but the correct map for Leiden. If I edit the Orillia article, then click "Show preview", the correct map appears. (The correct map always appears if the page is displayed in IE or Edge.) What I have done a couple of times is to add extra parameters such as {{Mapframe|43.8690|-79.3121|zoom=11}} as in the Markham article to display the correct map in Chrome. Should I continue doing this where the wrong map is displayed? I noted another discussion on the Chrome browser but I did not understand it. Thanks. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 21:37, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

I realized that as well. Adding the zoom level is sufficient in order to show the map as expected. But this behaviour is strange, anyway.--Renek78 (talk) 21:43, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
I do not use Chrome; however, when I make a mapframe I have usually added zoom and have had no problems. I have seen this type of behavior using maplink or marker as well. Just verify and if need be put in a zoom parameter. (pop up maps are it appears, handled slightly differently due to how a map is created (tiling). -- Matroc (talk) 02:41, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
A few weeks ago we found a JavaScript runtime error at Chrome-based browsers (including Opera) which prevents the full execution of the script which is necessary to add controls and to show the correct map section. It seems that this is not a problem of the browsers but a problem of programme-part dependencies which is done by the resource loader. Unfortunately, the foundation's programmers did not made a software correction until now. The most awkward situation is that the Chrome browsers are the major ones on smartphones. --RolandUnger (talk) 14:35, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
Actually, 80% on mobile, ~60% on desktop... really unfortunate. (talk) 20:33, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
I fixed the Orillia article, but adding zoom only was insufficient; so I also added the lat/long which fixed the problem. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 21:47, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
Personally, I think the best solution is to include coordinates and zoom of a place in all mapframes. --- Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:06, 21 August 2018 (UTC)


w:2018 Attica wildfires - Do we need a caution box for incidents like this? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:30, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I think it can be good to add one. There have been huge forest fires in Sweden for a few weeks, and that article also has a warningbox. ϒpsilon (talk) 15:53, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
A warning message is definitely in place here in my opinion, although other users may argue that it's not dangerous enough and that the fire should not be blamed for the reported deaths. ArticCynda (talk) 10:36, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
Do you consider this sort of calling out appropriate? More so since a fire is an objective reality. Your doom and gloom view of Molenbeek is surely colored by some sort of agenda, or at least you are doing a bad job convincing me it isn't. I am pretty sure I have been to places where various indicators "should" tell me it is "worse" than Molenbeek. Amazingly, I survived. Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:59, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
@Hobbitschuster: just like wildfires, crime is also an objective and very real threat to the traveler. It's not because you got out unharmed, that there is no risk. ArticCynda (talk) 14:20, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
WT has a "travel alerts" box on their main page. Should we add something similar?
I think we could easily make space; most of the stuff in the blue box (below the DotM etc listings) is unnecessary. On the other hand, I'm not certain it is a particularly good idea or that it would be maintainable. Pashley (talk) 15:14, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Forest fires have no agenda. Well except native the ones in Nicaragua in April. Your crusade to paint Molenbeek worse than it is, does. Ten times the Belgian average crime rate is still only the level of the "better" U.S. cities. Should there be a race mongering screaming warning box all over Chicago or Detroit? Should we warn lgbt folks or those on the tan side of "foreign" not to set foot in Dixie? Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:17, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

need template syntax help[edit]

For some reason part of my code works, but together does not. Passing an invoke result through a template fails but passing manually the same result works. This version of User:Traveler100/sandbox-coord add to the end of the Cairo page, as template or copy paste content, (Show preview not save). Why does {{Decdeglat}} give error if invoke of wikidata function used as parameter but works if manually pass the value? --Traveler100 (talk) 04:50, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

I think something to do with the String module as placing {{Decdeglong2}} in an article fails too. --Traveler100 (talk) 05:07, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
Not exactly positive but I think you are using parser function expr which may be an issue if a string is involved. If this is ompletely off base; I apologize in advance, but I might check the type and convert it to a number. -- Matroc (talk) 08:23, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
I think you are in the right area, I need to look at the area where specify the cut up of the degrees, minutes and seconds. Probably have an error in thre somewhere. --Traveler100 (talk) 17:08, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Narrowed it down. I think the invoke wikidata is returning characters with html syntax and string is reading as actual characters so are a number of & in the results.

  • {{#invoke:Wikidata|getValueFromID|Q85|P625|FETCH_WIKIDATA}} give 30°3'22"N, 31°14'22"E
  • {{#invoke:String|len|30°3'22"N, 31°14'22"E}} gives 21
  • {{#invoke:String|len|s={{#invoke:Wikidata|getValueFromID|Q85|P625|FETCH_WIKIDATA}} }} gives 37

So how to I get the invoke to be a normal string? --Traveler100 (talk) 19:22, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Convert the 2 html characters - string.gsub(xxx,"'","\'") and string.gsub(xxx,""",'\"') might be viable -- that will give you the correct count... You can probably use Module:String replace function - I made a separation function. I am sure there is another way dealing with html or raw or something like that? -- Matroc (talk) 05:15, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Quick fix: {{#invoke:Sandbox/Matroc|convchar|{{#invoke:Wikidata|getValueFromID|Q85|P625|FETCH_WIKIDATA}}}} - {{#invoke:String|len|s={{#invoke:Sandbox/Matroc|convchar|{{#invoke:Wikidata|getValueFromID|Q85|P625|FETCH_WIKIDATA}}}}}} --30°3'22"N, 31°14'22"E - 21
You might just be better off writing a single Module to handle the tasks rather than calling multiple Modules and as well as a template -- just something to consider -- Best wishes! Matroc (talk) 05:15, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
That does appear to have solved the main problem. Still finding a few odd cases that give errors. You are probably right though, would be better to write a single Module than use the many template calls I am using at {{geo/sandbox}}. Is becoming difficult to debug. Time for me to learn how to write Lua. Is there a quick teaching guide you can recommends? --Traveler100 (talk) 07:11, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Merging map/marker functionality with de.wikivoyage[edit]

Guys, I came across Template_talk:Mapframe#Why_Poimap2_doesn't_display_English_and_Mapframe_does?. Basically, it looks like the de.WV guys have figured out the issue with markers only using wikidata to gather coordinates (summoning User:RolandUnger, as usual :-)). Basically they got rid of the abandoned poimap2.php wmflabs thing and use javascript to extract whatever is needed. Check e.g. Luxor. In addition, they have a nice popup map on the top, so we could even remove many/most of the {{mapframe}}s added via User:AndreeBot recently in the regions (esp. if the popup map would show by default for the regions). They also have other improvements, e.g. of the listing editor or markers with icons. They don't seem to use region masks or metro mapshapes, but I think that should just continue to work.

I'd almost say it's a good time to combine the efforts and bring back de.WV improvements to en.WV, use the same codebase for both. What do you guys think, do you see any reason why not start preparing this "operation"? (talk) 08:32, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Until Mapframe type maps support showing your current location like the Poimap does I would strongly object to removing it from articles. --Traveler100 (talk) 09:49, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
Mapframe markers look very similar when printed in black and white, so I would prefer to keep having the alternative Poimap format. AlasdairW (talk) 13:31, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
Today I started to explain marker and map tools as we use it on German Wikivoyage. But it will take time to make this explanation complete. Why I did it? As already stated we made all the programming from scratch. So we should not speak about merging of functionality but about replacing the tool set. That's why I am explaining our tool set. The community should discuss (in future) pros and cons. After a decision, the replacement can be done step by step starting with new marker and listing templates. I think we should do this together with the Hebrew community to check correct right-to-left support.
Of course we payed attention to a high degree of backward compatibility. But it will be necessary to adapt the templates by a bot.
All this is connected with some new concepts. The main one is to rethink the current system of really simple types which is unusable with Wikidata. --RolandUnger (talk) 06:58, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Is it easy to transfer Mapmasks to OSM ?[edit]

I created many of those for the Hebrew Wikivoyage during the last year and I would like them to be used in other Wikimedia projects (such as Wikipedia). Is it easy to transfer them to OSM/Wikidata? If so, how is that done? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 16:43, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

It's pretty straight forward, since the mapmask is basically a polygon definition with line segments. Simply convert those to GPX format and import them into JOSM (Java OSM editor). Give it a name so you can search for it through OSM afterwards, and if it makes sense, assign it an administrative boundary by setting the admin_level tag. ArticCynda (talk) 16:50, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
Be careful! Only upload to OSM, if it is an official district boundary. If your boundary lines were set up by you at random in order to divide a city for Wikivoyage district maps then it definitely has no place in OSM. The right place is Wikimedia Commons for that (here is an example for Brussels). You need your polygons in GeoJSON format. If you only have gpx it is necessary to convert them to GeoJSON ( should work for that. Else JOSM).--Renek78 (talk) 17:37, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
I completely agree, Renek78, although I think we should try to reuse existing OSM data as much as possible and limit the custom maps as in the case of Brussels or Kraainem since they're less flexible and less accessible than OSM data. ArticCynda (talk) 07:34, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

The article counter at Hebvoy seems to be stuck on 2,095 articles (even though I wrote 10 articles recently but the counter hasn't changed)[edit]

Is there any way to fix this in order to make it accurate again? (I am afraid it hasn't been completely accurate for a awhile). ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 12:24, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

I'll file a Phabricator task to request that someone look at it. If anyone else knows of this problem at other wikis, please ping me. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:30, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
Thanks! ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 20:57, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Legalize all caps![edit]

I don't know about you, but don't you want to be able to use ALL CAPS without being BANNED for life (or 3 days)? Well now you can! At least, you'll be able to if you support this proposal.Nothing gets people's attention like ALL CAPS!!!!. If you want to convince someone NOT to visit Burundi, for example, lowercase might get people to reconsider, like the US State Department advises you to do (Burundi is only moderately dangerous). But if you REALLY want to scare the pants off of people, tell them, ALL TRAVEL TO DARRA ADAM KHEL SHOULD BE CONSIDERED VERY DANGEROUS AT THIS TIME!! Libertarianmoderate (talk) 00:45, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

what you're proposing, libertarianmoderate, is a change to Wikivoyage:capitalization, so the discussion should take place at wikivoyage talk:capitalization. i can't say that i am keen about the idea, but let's see what other editors say there. i'll copy the discussion over. regards, ground zero. 01:30, 1 august 2018.
r u tryna abolish caps completely? maybe we shd giv up all editorial stndrds n jus right however the hell we want ;) tt! (talk) 22:47, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
yeah i no write (pun wasnt intended), i can imagine some great wp articles written with no editorial standard, you know, like — um — like w:court of chancery, w:uniformitarianism, or something basic like w:principles of geology. Ormaybejustallonewordlikethissoitseasytoread. Okay, that's enough. Selfie City (talk) 00:30, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

WV has a pub, but does it have a window?[edit]

What do we know about WV readers, how do we know it, and what more ought we to know?

In editing, I form an idea of what the traveller might find helpful; other contributors then modify or comment, but I lack broader reader feedback and don’t know how to get it. In “Talk” pages there's throwaway mention of (for example) page-traffic, but I don’t know where to see this, or if it’s open to view, or what analysis there might be of what those numbers mean. Do folk seek out WV or chance upon it, and how likely are they to come back? Which other methods has WV used to understand its actual and potential audience? Has it done any survey outreach, has any impartial agency rated WV along with other web and printed travel guides?

If there are ready answers to these, then the task is to collate them into an accessible place, as easily found as the pub. The work-up for any major project should explicitly state how it addresses the view “out the window”. If there are no such answers, then WV has a strategic blind spot, and should encourage proposals to remedy it. Grahamsands (talk) 10:58, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

For any page you can see how many views it has been getting recently. From the page select the "View History" tab, then select "Page view statistics". This should then display a bar chart of activity in he last 20 days - I usually then change to 90 days using the options on the left of the page. (For example for Hartlepool which we have both edited recently: I would take the figures "with a pinch of salt", as I suspect that there is some under reporting. The same method works on Wikipedia, and in other languages. AlasdairW (talk) 21:46, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
In addition to the page views of specific pages, the Alexa ranking of Wikivoyage is regularly updated on the WV:WT page. It doesn't tell the full story but is a reasonable indicator of long-term trends. Wikivoyage also engages with its readers via social media (Facebook and Twitter). We don't seem to be as successful on this front as we could be. Other travel guides out there (Lonely Planet, Nat Geo Travel, BBC Travel, Fodor's and even the other site) are more popular than us by several orders of magnitude.
The app for Wikvoyage Offline receives a decent number of ratings and for the most part, they are positive (4 or 5 stars). Anecdotally, I've noticed that most people who read Wikivoyage have a positive impression of the site but most people don't know about WV and read our articles in the first place. If you surveyed 100 random travel enthusiasts and asked them whether Wikivoyage is a good source of information, a bad source or they have never heard of it, my guess is that the vast majority will say they have never heard of it followed by good. I still see the other site's name being thrown around more frequently than ours when I go to online travel forum posts written in 2018. Gizza (roam) 23:24, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
These are brilliant examples, many thanks. All these data, and knowledge about what they mean, are out there scattered. And I'm guessing there's more. They need to be collated on a page, which is practically writing itself as we go, before the next sweep of the pub disperses them again. That page could sit alongside tools, formats and conventions. But I'd advocate for it being more prominent, in the "get involved" sidebar like the pub, so that contributions and discussions about the "view out the window" were seen as just as important as any others. Grahamsands (talk) 14:09, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Apart from the WV:WT page which shows the Alexa ranking, the only other page I found which has kept a record of statistics measuring engagement with readers is Wikivoyage:Search_Expedition. There is a table comparing the search results and rank of selected articles with their WT counterparts and there are general links below that measuring Wikivoyage's general popularity. The table is good but I'm don't know why those articles were chosen for comparison. It would be great if we could make a table including all of our very important articles (e.g. countries, famous regions, capitals and 100 other highly populated cities). Gizza (roam) 00:53, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Mapshape doesn't work[edit]

Mapshape for Fort George not visible

Does anybody know why the Mapshape for Fort George doesn't work? If "geoline" is changed to "geoshape" nothing is shown on the map. The relation in OSM seems to be clean. Thanks for your help. --Renek78 (talk) 10:53, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

THe coordinates from OSM is correct - I built a geoshape on my homepage using <maplink> directly with those very same coords and there were no issues. (Note: I put in all the geo coordinates rather than use external) I noticed that in your example when I refreshed screen the mapframe showed a geoshape then map flashed and was overlayed with the geoline. Yes there evidently is something awry. (Someone may have recently changed something that is causing the slight malfunction you have noticed - I do not believe you are the first to mention this!) -- Best wishes -- Matroc (talk) 22:14, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
Just tried external with <mapframe> and <maplink> which does not work either for Q1426707 - other external geoshapes tested ok - ( Still have not found cause except I noted that Fort George (Q1426707) is an 18th-century fortress built in the Scottish Highlands in the aftermath of the Jacobite Rising of 1745 - and not in New York = perhaps some confusion with wikidata id is happening) -- Matroc (talk) 02:30, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, Matroc. The wrong Wikidata ID could be the reason. Just changed it in OSM. Let's see whether it shows up correctly here in a few days... --Renek78 (talk) 22:23, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
Looks like it works now -- Matroc (talk) 03:15, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
You're right. So it seems to be important to apply the correct Wikidata ID! Thanks again, Matroc --Renek78 (talk) 09:38, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Creating a new Wikidata item[edit]

For hotels, there is now a new tool/form at:

Sample creation: d:Q55932902 for this month's Höfn.

The tool is still being improved, but it can make it easier to create a new item. Jura1 (talk) 09:55, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

@Jura1: the tool doesn't allow entries to be saved yet, is that correct? ArticCynda (talk) 15:25, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification, logging in indeed unlocks the "create new item" button, but even with a completely filled in form, nothing happens. How/where is the Wikidata item for the newly created hotel revealed? ArticCynda (talk) 15:45, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Once clicked, it adds a link below the button to the new item. From d:Special:Contributions/ArticCynda, it looks like nothing was created. There are still a few bugs with tool (d:Wikidata_talk:Cradle). Jura1 (talk) 19:11, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
What's the motivation of this? I mean, you could as well just import=copy hotels from arguably much more complete OSM, and perhaps add wikidata refs while at it... That way you could even somehow re-sync the two occasionally (compared to above "start from scratch" approach) (talk) 16:50, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
These concerns aside, I'm also not entirely sure that any and all hostels or B&Bs meet the WikiData notability requirements. ArticCynda (talk) 16:56, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
The idea is to allow to share the information about the ones used in Wikivoyage listings across various language editions and other WMF sites. I think notably is here if the item is used in a Wikivoyage listing. Jura1 (talk) 19:11, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
The idea is good: to share information across various language editions. But not the solution. We need considerably more information as shown for instance for Steigenberger Hotel El Tahrir Cairo. And of restaurants and so on. We are using such data at the German Wikivoyage since about two years. It seems that information for sleep (hotels, but also campsites) are now fully accepted. The information should not only be entered but used. We start usually with a photograph at Commons and a category which is specific to this location. Then we create a Wikidata item and link it with commons. If there is no photograph you should immediately use this Wikidata item in a Wikivoyage article. There were a few problems at the beginning when Wikidata authors forgot to check the page information to got informed about data usage.
Now we are thinking about how to transfer these data from the listing templates or from the listing editor at Wikivoyage to Wikidata.
But there are some unsolved problems till now. One is that of opening hours (as discussed recently). The system used now is difficult to handle by software and it is not compatible with that of OpenStreetMap. Other ones are how to store hotel/restaurant features (in P527 ?), the types of cuisine and to expand properties for booking companies. --RolandUnger (talk) 06:34, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
I guess many people already discussed this in depth... But I'm really not convinced that essentially duplicating OSM work to wikidata is a good thing to do. It sounds like it would be better to e.g. extend wikidata with another namespace (like the [recent lexeme stuff]) that would somehow refer to OSM. Sure, OSM has unstable IDs yadayada. But I would say some man-weeks of developer discussions/implementation would be better than thousands of hours of copying stuff. Especially when the hotels come and go daily, and hotel aggregators get the listings+updates for free from the hotel/restaurant operators (whereas we have to maintain that manually here and in OSM). But if there are people willing to spend time on this, who am I to stop them... My 2c... :-) (talk) 06:53, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Maybe I should have mentioned: please use it here if you create an item.
    — In some aspects, it seems to me that Wikivoyage was light-years ahead of other MW projects. Wikidata slowly follows up, but I don't think it can provide all required fields for listings yet and might not be able for some time. At d:Wikidata:Wikivoyage/Resources#Properties_for_listings there is the result of the last iteration (2 years ago). I think infoboxes for places were set up back then.
    — @RolandUnger: I don't think the thing with opening hours got anywhere last time. If there is a standard format we could use, please propose it. Unless the data is used and maintained, I'm not sure if Wikidata is the best place for that though. Unfortunately, development is absorbed by other things, so we can't even enter time-values in date properties. has facility should work for some of the aspects you mention.
    — There are some types of listings that I think work better in Wikidata than others, at least based on current update frequency and the number of users doing that. Items for many "see" and "do" listings are already available and basic "sleep" listings might not require that much maintenance.
    — BTW, for demo purposes, would it be possible to add the listing template and tool on ? It might be more readily present in the minds of Wikidata editors even if it's not the English version. I asked a Wikidata admin to look into that.
    I do think that Wikivoyage is a good usecase for Wikidata items, allowing local reviews, descriptions, and comments on shared basic structured data. Jura1 (talk) 13:29, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Articles about Trivago, Expedia, etc.[edit]

I was thinking, wouldn't it be nice to provide our users with info on hotel or flight booking sites? Libertarianmoderate (talk) 18:01, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Wikivoyage:External links says to avoid linking to secondary sources, including aggregator sites such as the above. Please slow down with the flood of new ideas and proposals and focus instead on adding content within the parameters of our current policy. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:08, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Actually, there sort of is an article about aggregators: User:Hobbitschuster/Aggregators --ϒpsilon (talk) 18:41, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
I think that we could usefully have an article about how to get the best out of online booking sites, and how to avoid some possible mistakes. Such an article need not actually link to the booking sites. I see it as more about avoiding booking a flight to Birmingham (Alabama) when you want to go to Birmingham (England), how far ahead to book for best choice / best prices etc. Online booking sites include primary sites such as those run by airlines and railway companies. AlasdairW (talk) 23:00, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
I think it's OK to link to important sites in such an article, though not in other articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:10, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

New Watch List filter[edit]

Not getting it. How can I easily remove bot edits from the list. In old UI was a simple tick box and update. --Traveler100 (talk) 19:45, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

So quickest way appear have to type in Human, (was looking for bot) then rerun. OK works but do not think it is so discoverable. --Traveler100 (talk) 20:04, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
It's kind of conceptually different; you ask for stuff you want rather than stuff you don't want. seems to be the page for these filters on Special:RecentChanges, but I couldn't easily find something specific for watchlists. User:Trizek (WMF) should be able to tell us (after the weekend) if there's a good help page for watchlists. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:16, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
The point with the new format is not th think about excluding things, but what you want to display. If you want to exclude bots, you have indeed to display edits made by humans instead. Trizek (WMF) (talk) 09:01, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Edit button edits the wrong listing[edit]

After an absence of about a year, I am back—basically just visiting, but trying to upgrade information for Lake County, Oregon. In Lakeview (Oregon)#Buy, there's a listing for BLM. (The question of whether BLM should be under "Buy" is irrelevant here.) When I click the Edit link after the listing, I get an edit box for the MC Chuckwagon exhibit (under See). If I click the edit link after the Goose Lake State Recreation Area (under Camping), the same thing happens. The one common factor that I can see is that all three of these listings have a number 1 (different colors) map link. I have never been a fan of WYSIWIG editors on Wikimedia projects and would prefer just to edit the whole article in source text, but when I try that, I get into an endless loop where pushing "Publish changes" endlessly asks me for an edit summary. Somehow, my editing environment here is not what I am used to (on Wikipedia, e.g.) where there is an edit-summary box below everything, and no toolbar at the top. Any suggestions? Thanks. Peter Chastain (talk) 07:47, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

This is not the common behaviour. I sometimes get the wrong listing/section either because of an edit between loading the page and hitting edit or because of the wrong type used in some section (a Do listing in See can confuse the tools). Something like the latter could explain what you see (but I get the right listing). You can also choose to edit the wikitext like on Wikipedia, and there should be no such problems (except the edit conflict one). --LPfi (talk) 09:31, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
Well, yes, I can choose to edit the wikitext, and there are no problems except that I cannot save my edit. Clicking "Publish changes", I get a dialog where I am asked for an edit summary, which I supply and then attempt to save, and I get thrown right back into the dialog where it asks me for an edit summary. Of the two mechanisms that I know about, for editing Lakeview (Oregon), I have been successful with zero of them. :( Peter Chastain (talk) 06:08, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Hi, Peter Chastain, and welcome back. I think I can help you get back to the mw:2010 wikitext editor that is probably more familiar to you.
  • Go to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-betafeatures and turn off the "new wikitext mode". (If that works, you're done; stop there.)
  • If it's not turned on, then check for the "Automatically enable all new beta features" option at the top, and turn that off. (Then turn on, and turn off, the "new wikitext mode" to make sure that it noticed that should be turned off.)
  • If neither of those are turned on, then go to Special:GlobalPreferences#mw-prefsection-betafeatures and repeat all of that.
  • Also, please tell me, just because I'd like to know if I'm the only person getting this bug: when you hit the endless loop of it asking you for an edit summary, and then nothing happens, if you cancel out of edit summary box and check the history page in a new tab, did it actually save your changes already? WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:34, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

New Canal itinerary - Main Donau Kanal[edit]

I took the liberty to create this itinerary as today the importance of this canal is largely touristic and there are paths along its banks that can be used by bikes and pedestrians as well as cruises along its entire length. de-wv also has an article. Please help with filling in POIs and whatnot. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:53, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps a larger article concerning canal travel might be appropriate as well - There are many canals throughout the UK and Europe that one can almost get across Europe to the Mediterranean via barge or small craft. -- Matroc (talk) 16:03, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Inland_waterways_in_the_United_Kingdom needs massive expansion. I'm considering asking if this is something that needs to be moved back to userspace until someone has time to expand it.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:30, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
Existing canal itineraries include Rideau Canal, Erie Canal & Along the Grand Canal. Those might give you ideas. Pashley (talk) 19:01, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Well the Main Donau Kanal (the third attempt to link those two river systems and ultimately "Black Sea and North Sea") is actually sometimes described as linking the Rhine via its tributary Main to the Danube and hence crossing most of Europe. There were even - believe it or not - concerns that it would have to be opened as an international waterway even to "hostile" cargo shipping during the cold war... Well and nowadays it is mostly a place for cruises and other types of leisure only moderately disturbed by the occasional cargo vessel which once were supposedly the reason for building the whole shebang. Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:56, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Good addition. On the topic of articles about canals, there is the broader topic of Waterways for a start. UK canals would be a good topic. --Traveler100 (talk) 09:16, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
Another thing, the markers as they are (unfortunately neither de-WV nor WP were all that helpful in identifying other sights along the canal) do a pretty okay job of identifying the route, but what about using Wikidata for a blue line where the Canal is, kinda like we do for subways? Oh and I think for those that offer generally accessible passenger boats of some kind (ferries, cruises) I think we should link to (some of) the operators... It however appears that the RMD (yeah I know, the abbreviation makes no sense, but is one of the most common shorthand forms) is not mentioned as prominently on the cruise brochures as e.g. the Panama Canal is... Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:38, 6 August 2018 (UTC)


User:Curlylips22 has added a link to a site called Gynopedia to several destination articles. They've described it as "a free wiki resource that covers topics like birth control, the morning after pill, STI tests, menstrual products, women's clinics, gynecologists, prenatal care, abortion laws & access, crisis hotlines, etc. in locations around the world."

It could maybe be useful to have that link in Tips for women travellers or some similar article, but I doubt we need to have it in each and every destination article. --ϒpsilon (talk) 19:20, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

From this looks like it may fall into Wikivoyage:External links exclusion of "links to other guides". K7L (talk) 19:36, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, those edits are going to need to be reverted. We don't use external links that way (definitely not in destination articles, and arguably not in travel topics like Tips for women travellers either). Any such information on our site should be specific to the individual destination and presented in the article itself, rather than linked to from another site. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:25, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes Done -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:33, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
I reverted some more additions. While it's useful information for many travellers, it's better to have it in one article. We for instance don't include detailed description of malaria or zika virus in every destination article where those diseases are a risk. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:40, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Hey everyone - Thanks for the input, and sorry if I added external links incorrectly! Here's the deal: The links that were added were not redundant; they were different on each page. For example, the link that was added on the Dhaka page was specifically for health care options for women in Dhaka, while the link on the Paris page was specifically related to health care options for women in Paris. Like Wikivoyage, Gynopedia is designed to have separate city and country pages (but focused on sexual and reproductive health care). It seemed like it would be useful for visitors to a given page to find health care information specifically for that city, hence why I added specific links to various city and country pages on Wikivoyage. However, if this violates how the wiki is managed/run, I understand. - User:Curlylips22 note: for User:AndreCarrotflower User:Ypsilon User:K7L

Curlylips22 - Understood about the fact that the links weren't redundant. However, the rule of thumb at Wikivoyage is that we prefer to include as much relevant information as possible in our articles themselves, rather than forcing our readers to click through to another website. The reason why is because we are a travel wiki, and there are many underdeveloped places in the world where travellers might have Internet access only through slow dial-up connections, or they might have none at all and have to make do with printed copies of our guides. The information in the Gynopedia articles is welcome, but policy holds that it should be integrated into Wikivoyage by, for example, creating listings for pharmacies, etc. in the "Cope" sections of the destination articles themselves, or adding information about availability of contraception, etc. to the "Stay healthy" sections. I'm not sure if Gynopedia is published under a Creative Commons license, but if so, the process could be as simple as copy-pasting the information directly from Gynopedia to here (don't forget to use proper attribution in your edit summary or on the talk page.) -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:55, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

I have proposed a Wikidata property for linking to pages on this site from the corresponding items about places: d:Wikidata:Property proposal/Gynopedia place ID. Curlylips22 FYI. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:48, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

I'd say it should definitely be added to Tips for women travellers. Not sure about links anywhere else. Pashley (talk) 12:10, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
I think the Gynopedia site would be okay as a link from Tips for women travelers however, most of the information is outside of scope for destination articles. Birth control, abortion advice/clinics, menstruation, advocacy, etc. are all outside of our scope, so I don't think most of it could even be adapted to Wikivoyage. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 12:39, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
I would say that information about the availability of birth control and abortion in a given city, including the locations of clinics, is definitely relevant to travellers, particularly if there's any scarcity (obviously, in a place where you can get birth control over the counter in any of hundreds or thousands of drugstores, there's no need to start listing those). It seems to me, on the same basis that there are Commons and Wikipedia links for every article that has a counterpart on those Wikis, a link to the relevant Gynopedia article should be provided through Wikidata, if it is part of Wikimedia or has compatible Creative Commons Copyleft policies and would like to associate with Wikimedia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:17, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
It is relevant indeed. I would agree with an "In other projects" link once Wikidata has the links. If Wikimedia had a wiki dedicated to hospitals we would certainly link to it. Syced (talk) 03:34, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

I added a track on the dynamic map of Around the World in Eighty Days but now all the POIs have disappeared[edit]

does anyone know how them make the POIs reappear? (without removing the track) ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 22:22, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm just about to try playing around with this thing. Yes, it seems as though there's a lot of complex code involved with the formation of that map. Selfie City (talk) 23:05, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm sure Traveler100 would know and be able to fix it easily. Selfie City (talk) 23:06, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
There was a parameter to indicate which items are displayed; if you changed it to indicate the track should be displayed, you'll likely have to also list the standard items (come, see, conquer, do, buy, eat, drink, be merry, sleep, pillage, burn, listing...) or they won't appear. It might be worth looking at Trans-Siberian Railway or Oregon Trail to see how they handle this. K7L (talk) 23:23, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Temporary fix - added show="listing" to mapframe and the POIs now appear... Did this fix while K7L was entering explanation -- Matroc (talk)
marker without a type appears to default to listing and will not show in a mapframe unless show=listing is applied I believe. If you add type=see to all the markers - mapframe without a show parameter should work fine. If you click button icon 1 for Fogg the popup map will appear with that green icon 1 only, if you want the other icons to appear just put in show=listing for the other markers and they will all appear. You can experiment with group and show to see different situation. -- Matroc (talk) 00:02, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
Note: Using {{mapframe}} is not the same as using <mapframe> and there are subtle differences. -- Matroc (talk) 20:29, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
Is there actually a usecase for a "common editor" to use the tag instead of the template? I didn't see one yet, and quite the opposite - the former almost always caused some issues, like markers not showing (=the above). (talk) 20:47, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
Insert > Map in the visual editor (and in its wikitext mode) uses the tag directly. It would be ideal if the tag worked as well as the template; if anyone wants to talk to work-me about this problem, then I'd be happy to file bug reports. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:30, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Chinese nationalist vandal[edit]

I've noticed that there is this vandal who seems to be bent on vandalising articles about China and China's geopolitical allies and rivals. I was wondering if we should have a partial protection on these articles so people don't have to keep reverting this vandalism. For a start, perhaps the articles we could do a partial protection on are the articles for China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, North Korea and the United States. What do people say about that? The dog2 (talk) 19:02, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Support I'd lock the bigger/controversial countries (US, China...) for auto-protected users only... and also auto-ban new-comers who (nearly-)blank big pages like Pub within the first hours of their account existence. (talk) 19:57, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
I'd probably have supported that second proposal, if I hadn't just accidentally blanked a Google Doc and needed ten agonizing minutes to figure out how to get my browser un-stuck and the previous content restored. As it is, I'm a little more aware of the possibility that something might go wrong accidentally. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:16, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
In GD you don't have to push "save", here you do... What about "auto-revert" and ban for 12h, then after next accident 24h, 48h...? But I don't know if this is even possible with mediawiki, not if there are so many cases that or deserves a topic even :) (talk) 20:43, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
It was a pure coincidence that I posted this at the same time that this most recent vandal was going around blanking pages. But this Chinese nationalist vandal who names himself some iteration of Fuerdai (which btw is Mandarin for second-generation rich). I think if we protect the articles I mentioned from edits by non-autoconfirmed users, we should be able to stop him from vandalising them. The dog2 (talk) 20:52, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
True, Andree. But it's also true that you can click "Publish" without realizing that you've screwed up things that aren't visible on your screen.
Is this vandal doing large-scale blanking? It might be possible to set up an abuse filter for blanking (or certain names) by new editors in the mainspace. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:25, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
If you want to know (I'm mostly active on the English Wikipedia, I just saw this post after looking at some of this vandal's edits), this page gives some info on this user. SemiHypercube (talk) 00:41, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

How to switch a page banner back to default[edit]

I've been trying to do this for the poor-quality banner images for speedway and Ohlone Trail, which I added myself a while ago, but now I can't change them back to the default. How is this done? Selfie City (talk) 21:20, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

You'd have to remove the "wikivoyage banner" on the associated Wikidata item, in addition to putting the default image in the template here. K7L (talk) 22:27, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
I think the assumption is that any banner is better than the default... However, I'm not sure I agree... Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:36, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
Interestingly, the speedway one is working now. And generally yes, I would say any banner, but these images were very poor quality. Selfie City (talk) 00:07, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks to K7L's explanation, I've got the other one working now as well. Thanks, both of you, for your assistance on this issue; it's really been a help. Selfie City (talk) 00:11, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Putting graphs in Template:Climate[edit]

Climate chart with graph

I have seen that there was a small discussion in here more than a year ago but it was suggested at a late stage that didn't go anywhere with few participants, or an earlier discussion from 3 years ago.

I'm curious as to why the present template for climate is all text and numbers but no graphs. Why aren't we having graphs like the one to the right? My day time job is a climatologist and it is always simpler for humans to compare between graphs at a glance rather than compare the numbers in a table. Take our department's climate data for Toronto as example. Our first tab is always the graph because it gets the message across easily. Only if you want to get nitty and gritty part then you will find the table in second tab.

Since the code is already available in wiki format, we can easily lift it for our use. Those who prefer numbers still have access to it in the graph, while those who are visual learners can benefit tremendously from this addition. OhanaUnitedTalk page 04:16, 7 August 2018 (UTC) Addendum: I wanted to get clarity because Template:Climate chart says "This new template [from 2014] should be discussed on its talk page to explain its purpose and build consensus for usage on the site. Until there is a consensus to keep the template it should not be added to more than one low-visibility article (as an example of usage)..." OhanaUnitedTalk page 20:09, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

I think it has not been implemented because most editors don't have any problems with the current climate template. Also, while the new template gives out more information at a glance, it does take up more space vertically. ϒpsilon (talk) 05:01, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
If I understand correctly, shouldn't traveller comes first? I placed the currently version of the template for Seoul as comparison so everyone can take a look between the graph and the box. The graph gives you a context and scale. At a glance with the box, you wouldn't pick out easily that July and August had the most rain (by a factor of 3) comparing to other months. But the graph shows it right away. Not to mention that one-click expansion gives you the unit conversion to imperial units for our American visitors. Space-wise, while you accurately described the graph taking up more vertical space, you didn't mention that the box takes up more horizontal space.
Travellers' pub
Climate chart (explanation)
Average max. and min. temperatures in °C
Precipitation+Snow totals in mm
Korea Meteorological Administration
Imperial conversion
Average max. and min. temperatures in °F
Precipitation+Snow totals in inches
OhanaUnitedTalk page 05:48, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
Taking up horizontal space is not really a problem, but we've recently discussed the issues with infoboxes in country articles taking up much horizontal space, and together with region maps that likewise are located in the top of the article they've been forcing all photos (in the case of small countries with short articles) far below where they should be. That problem was luckily solved.
To make it clear, I don't oppose replacing the climate template. I expected the new chart would grow huge when inserted in articles with very much rain but apparently it doesn't.
But, if the community decides we should start using the new chart, someone needs to make sure that they're changed in all articles that have climate tables. ϒpsilon (talk) 06:31, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
On the first look, it seems we could replace {{Climate}} with w:Template:Climate_chart relatively straight-forward-ly (so it'd be fixed everywhere 'for free'). (talk) 06:38, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
Support I'd support the graph anytime. We don't really have an "real-estate issue" with WV, IMO. I'd say it's the contrary even - esp. on the modern wide-screen desktops the text is really unpleasant to read. In any case, as you said - from the graph, it's immediately obvious when the "best season" is - compared to very hard-to-read table. (talk) 06:38, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
Note - I fixed the WP Climate_chart (sub-)template, now it seems to print fine. This was one of the blockers back then, so perhaps User:RolandUnger and User:Andrewssi2 will be interested? (talk) 15:25, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
I checked several pages on Android that uses the existing box (since that's the biggest "real-estate issue") and it causes page alignment issue. Anchorage and Adelaide 's climate box spills out to the left and you wouldn't see the text for "Daily high", "Daily low" and "Precipitation". Aarhus's climate box spills out to the right and you can scroll to see the furthest right, but you also scrolled the entire page at the same time. But if I go to w:Aarhus that uses climate chart, the mobile version gives me a scrollbar within the template. So from a mobile standpoint, the graph is also superior to the box. OhanaUnitedTalk page 20:04, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
Support I agree with this proposal, graphs are much easier to interpret than individual numbers. I would suggest to check how graphs come out when articles are printed however (for users who prefer to print articles instead of reading them on digital devices). ArticCynda (talk) 07:24, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
Support I also support the graphs. Much more visually appealing. Thanks to Ohana United for this. Ground Zero (talk) 11:36, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
I personally am particular to the Walter+Lieth type of diagram, but the graphic style proposed above certainly beats numbers... this is what Walter+Lieth looks like Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:49, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
I was about to propose the same, as the Walter/Lieth style allows for very quick identificaton of humid/arid periods. There doesn't seem to be anything about this on en.wikipedia, but this page gives a pretty good quick introduction. Downside is of course, that there doesn't seem to be an already-existing template for this. --El Grafo (talk) 11:55, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
Support So fancy! This looks much better than what exists currently. DethDestroyerOfWords (talk) 18:50, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
Support +1 for graphs PsamatheM (talk) 19:36, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
Support Agree with the above. As a general comment, Wikivoyage tends to be text heavy and light on visuals/graphics compared to other travel guides. This will go some way towards fixing the imbalance. Gizza (roam) 21:46, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
I think we should also establish which graph to use. Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:39, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
While the Walter+Lieth is technically superior to the WP style, it took me a good while to understand how it works (saw it for the 1st time, too) - and I am relatively technically skilled, IMHO. The WP style is commonly used in mobile apps and on web, so I'd say most of the visitors would be very familiar with it. And finally, we have an implementation of the WP style readily available. (talk) 05:21, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
I like the idea of a graph. Could typical hotter (>30 °C/85 °F) or cooler (?) ranges be lightly highlighted in the background, so that it's easier to get an idea of how hot or cold those numbers are? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:50, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
Of course, (good) graphs can be read easier and faster at least on smartphones. However, a graph should be visible on all devices but the graph shown above cannot be printed because div-tag background colors are omitted in print which are used for the bars. To prevent excess editing work and time we have to develop a method of implementation firstly. Contrary to the map development we have to cooperate with Wikipedians because they have the same need. Three problems must be solved: (1) where and how to store the climate data? There are two possible repositories: Wikidata or Commons (for instance as JSON data as it is done for map data). (2) We need a Lua application interface to fetch these data into the wiki (Wikidata: a simple one is available; Commons: not yet available). (3) Conversion to a png or svg media file. This can be done for instance with the <graph> tag. In 2015 I made a first simple graph experiment to create a media file. Graph is a strong tool to create more complex charts, too. Unfortunately we do not have the manpower at German Wikivoyage to create a complete solution. That's why I ask to collaborate with Wikipedians and the foundations programmers. --RolandUnger (talk) 04:46, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
Roland, as I wrote above, the WP style can be printed now, as is. Other points are not needed immediately, IMO. We can likely just replace the current template to present the existing data ina graph form. For sure it'd be better to fetch P4150 from wikidata and render it on the fly to svg, but that sounds like a long term task. The data are hardly present anywhere (short of the New York entry), and there's no renderer. I reckon this may take years, right? (talk) 05:21, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
I fear that you are right (taking years). But we should try to ask the English Wikipedians to find a faster way. --RolandUnger (talk) 16:20, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

...looks like nobody's really against this proposal. Shall we implement it then? (talk) 14:51, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Please do. Everyone loves a graph. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:13, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm very much looking forward to the graphs. Thank you for taking this on. Ground Zero (talk) 16:07, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Request for comments[edit]

Aarhus, Austin, Palmdale and Irkutsk were switched to the new template, please comment before whole WV is switched... I'd say it would be nice if we could add a "switch units" button, but that would require some CSS+javascript-fu (+that wouldn't print well, obviously; but I guess this isn't really needed). Another issue is that the template doesn't show snowfall or sea temperatures. Perhaps we can fallback to the old table in such cases (+we can add a template parameter to force the graph)? Or merge snowfall with rainfall somehow? (talk) 19:13, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

I believe the old template also didn't differentiate between rainfall and snowfall, but rather generic "precipitation". I also believe that the graph template on Wikipedia has a button for automatic unit conversion. OhanaUnitedTalk page 02:16, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
At the bottom of the template there is some text in red and blue. I think that should just be in plain black, it doesn't look too good. Otherwise I quite like the new template except that the old one was nice, simple, and easy to read. Personally, I prefer the old one. Selfie City (talk) 02:19, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
The old table also uses colors... In any case we can change this to something else (now or later), I don't really have any strong feelings regarding the styling. (talk) 06:53, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
How do you display in alternative units, Change F to C or in to mm? --Traveler100 (talk) 06:10, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
User:OhanaUnited, thanks for the hint - I overlooked that. Looks like WP uses a bit different CSS than WV, but after a tiny fix, now the units can be converted using the same "button" at the bottom of the table. (talk) 06:53, 19 August 2018 (UTC)


Now the template is switched, after a short detour. If you find some issues (I didn't in about 50 articles I checked), comment - either it gets fixed right away, or we'll revert it again... (talk) 19:28, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I've discovered a problem with the template in the McMurdo Station article — when temperatures go below zero on the graph, they go into the precipitation graph. This should be fixed, if possible. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:58, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
Yep, it's unfortunately a standard behavior of {{Climate chart}}. Thinking about it, perhaps for this one case we could add some manual "temperature shift" parameter, which would move the 0°C line upward... The current implementation using the templates is quite crazy (so in case of any non-trivial changes, I'd first try to rewrite it into Lua). (talk) 20:08, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps we should have a different template designed specifically for places that get sub-zero temperatures in the monthly average, with that slight modification. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:21, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
And another problem: Death Valley climate chart, this time due to extremely hot temperatures. Look at the top of the graph and you will see what I mean. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:25, 27 August 2018 (UTC) Thanks for this amazing contribution! The new graphs look so much better. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:41, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Hmm, I think the new table itself looks good in most articles, but unfortunately in many articles it seems to create big white spaces. See Montevideo for a fairly mild example. It would be nice if we could do something about that. The issue with negative temperatures is also a significant problem, though fortunately it doesn't seem to affect too many articles (even in Longyearbyen the chart still looks pretty good). —Granger (talk · contribs) 08:55, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I saw that in Atlanta. How could that be fixed, or is there a way you can move the table so there isn't a white space? --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 13:56, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Done, partly :) Some issues were caused by the template (Atlanta), some by the articles (see last Montevideo diff ). I'll try to figure out some simple (at least temporary) solution for the low/big temperatures.... (talk) 19:08, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
It's great to see graph/table design on Wikivoyage enter the space age... --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 21:02, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, Montevideo looks good now. I'll remove the extra lines like that when I see them in other articles. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:25, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Oh, here's a problematic one, this time due to very heavy rains during a couple months of the year. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 17:26, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
Hmm, missed that one... anyway, in those cases, "maxprecip=" has to be added to scale the stuff. E.g. here maxprecip=800 seems to be OK. ||| 18:51, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
The Montevideo newline problem was (I suppose) due to the trailing newline newline between </inludeonly> and <noinclude> in the Climate template. One empty line is allowed and makes grasping the wikitext easier, but two newlines in the template and an empty line in the wikitext makes it two empty lines, which is interpreted differently from one. --LPfi (talk) 14:27, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Template:Weather box[edit]

I also added a proof-of-concept template {{Weather box}}, which spits out the {{Climate chart}} instead. The weather box is used on wikipedia to display the climate tables, so basically this means those tables can be copy-pasted into WV without changes, which simplifies the data gathering a bit... Is it a good idea, or should we rather get rid of this to discourage such copying? PS: The template may have some bugs or not work always...... -- 13:51, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

I think we should actually encourage copy-pasting from Wikipedia for climate tables, since we don't have to worry about licensing, etc., that we might have to when copying information from other sources. We can also trust it more to be accurate. If we were talking about whole articles that would be different, but in this situation I don't think this is a bad thing. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 14:42, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
Welp, so I added a bunch of those for test, and mostly it works okay... just FYI. :) -- 19:33, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
What does "mostly" mean? --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 19:45, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
This. :-) -- 20:06, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
Any examples? --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 20:13, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
Added!-- 16:10, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

hi pub users[edit]

how you doing?.

--Themainhomepageitsputittouse (talk) 19:17, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

A lot better now that you're banned. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:27, 7 August 2018 (UTC)


Why were the regions removed from the Central African Republic page? Those articles contained vital info on the security situation in the three areas of the C.A.R. If they were too short, I can fix that. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 01:14, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

We prefer not to break articles up into regions until the article contains enough region-specific information to not have empty region articles. If you want to recreate the region articles, that's a valid solution to the problem so long as you do add information to them. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:21, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
The other solution is to simply include the safety warnings for different regions in Central African Republic#Stay safe - in different sections, if that's appropriate. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:34, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, in my opinion, unless you plan to create city articles to populate those regions, it would probably be better to add the information about the security situation to the "Understand" and "Stay safe" sections of the country article for now. If more city articles are created, or if the content in the country article gets so long or confusing that readers need separate region articles to make sense of it, then recreating the regions would make sense. (By the way, if I'm not mistaken, all or almost all of the security information in the region articles was incorporated into the country article when I merged them.) —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:38, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
It is possible for a bottom-level region article to group a long list of villages into a few shorter groups of 7±2 each without creating a new level of subregion articles. Adirondacks does this, because it's a huge chunk of parkland into which at least eighteen tiny villages have been scattered. I'm not sure that CAR needs this (as the article only has seven pages under it) and it's rarely done, but it might be an option if you want a region-like subgrouping without creating another level of region page under this one. K7L (talk) 02:08, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Mapshape in Moscow/Central North[edit]

The map in the district article Moscow/Central North shows POIs outside the shaded area of the map. Either the shaded area needs to be redrawn or the listings moved. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:02, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

If I remember rightly, the map for this district has been an issue before, perhaps even quite recently. Selfie City (talk) 15:04, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
Yes, see Talk:Moscow/Central-North; it was brought up about six weeks ago. Selfie City (talk) 15:05, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
...And not resolved or addressed... Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:13, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
It appears only 2 POIs were outside the district boundaries, so I moved them to their appropriate neighbor districts until a better solution is agreed on. ArticCynda (talk) 07:44, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
Because you came a day after I fixed the region to fit 1/2 of the items that were previously outside... :-D In the end, the problem is that our Moscow region boundaries are very badly defined. (talk) 10:42, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
Oops I didn't check that, thanks for the efforts you invested in fixing the issues,! I agree that the boundaries are quite loosely defined, so perhaps we should move to a Wikimedia Commons hosted map like Brussels or Saint Petersburg? From the recent experience with Brussels and the ongoing discussions in its margins, we know that such a setup is quite a bit of work, but almost immediately pays off because the map becomes a lot easier to maintain. ArticCynda (talk) 11:04, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
Sorry about the extra work, I only left the message in history and didn't bother to write back here :) :( Anywho, in the end we can relatively easily redraw the dynamic map acc. to Moscow_map_by_WikiJunky.jpg, or rework Moscow completely and match the stuff from the Russian comrades... (talk) 11:18, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Issue with the editor mode[edit]

I'm having an issue with the source editor mode where it automatically creates another editing box on top of the area where you publish an edit. Fortunately, the box can be changed in size, so I can post this, but a solution would be excellent. It's also putting the headings in larger text and that kind of thing. Selfie City (talk) 21:03, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

I've never noticed this. On which browser/platform are you seeing this behavior, Selfie City? Could it be a conflict between browser add-ons and Wikimedia preferences? ArticCynda (talk) 11:07, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
Chrome. I tried disabling an ad blocker but that has not worked. Selfie City (talk) 14:29, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
Could you please go to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-betafeatures and tell me what's enabled?
Also, do you have syntax highlighting enabled? (If you do, then there will be some colored text showing when you type wikitext.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:09, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
I turned everything off with the hope of that working, but it didn't. Also, interestingly, I commented quite recently on ArticCynda's talk page when that user was blocked, and the editor mode worked for that page and that page only. Selfie City (talk) 17:40, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
Which mw:Editor are you using? I think the default here is a light blue one from 2010, called the mw:WikiEditor. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:12, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
It most closely resembles the 2003 original version. Selfie City (talk) 16:16, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm confused by this, but I suspect that the problem is syntax highlighting. If that's the case, you'd have to enable a newer browser, open a page, turn off syntax highlighting (look for a button that looks like a highlighter marker ...but not the one that looks like a pencil :-/ ), and then go back to Prefs and reset your prefs to whatever you want and see if that fixed it. (If not, then please try to take a screenshot and e-mail it to me.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:22, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Yes, I'll try that in the near future, but honestly I've gotten used to this editor, so it's not bothering me as much as it used to. In fact, it's not really bothering me at all; but I'll still try to change it to the correct model. --- Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:37, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

I was on WT a few minutes ago and the editor mode worked, interestingly. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:04, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Website to extract Wikidata ID's from OpenStreetMap[edit]

Hello, CKoerner (WMF), Matroc, Shaundd, Alexander, Yurik, Andrewssi2, RolandUnger, Mey2008, Traveler100, ϒpsilon, Whatamidoing (WMF), Selfie City and everyone else interested in dynamic maps. I have created a little website, which helps to gather all the Wikidata ID's of a certain region.

Of course once this overview map is created there is still a lot of work to be done: All the Wikidata ID's for a Wikivoyage sub-district have to be manually copied and pasted into a separate Mapshape in order to color the map.

I have quite a few ideas on how to automate this further. Imagine a map of e.g. Prague with all districts is shown and you simply have to lasso/brush select all the districts, which should be used for a certain color and the tool would automatically output a Mapshape with all needed Wikidata ID's. Unfortunately my JavaScript knowledge is not (yet) up to the task.

Hope you guys find Wikidata Extractor useful.--Renek78 (talk) 10:27, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Hi, great stuff! I'm not sure on general usefulness on WV, since many areas here don't match the official counties/municipalities. It'd be great if Kartographer could be convinced to do some logical operations with areas - e.g. subtract a region (group) and a json area (to be able to draw Interior_(Iceland) and North_Iceland). I didn't find such feature though :-(
If we can figure out a way to easily query for some administrative regions (also on lower levels, than just 'counties' - also city boundaries etc.) within a geoJSON area (e.g. from, that would be sweet. But even this so far is nice :) (talk) 10:40, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
For regions, which are completely independent of any official boundaries the GeoJSON has to be created manually (with tools like or JOSM) and then uploaded to commons. Plenty of articles with such maps can be found here already (check my user page for some examples). This would also be possible for your Iceland example. Wikidata/OSM is only for official districts/municipalities. Hope I didn't misunderstand you.--Renek78 (talk) 10:53, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
You understood correctly, and I know about the "commons maps"... But I don't have the will+time to do that, not to mention maintain it (it's almost like the negative properties of static and dynamic maps combined :-D). E.g. in Slovakia, most of the regions match the official region split - and I only would need to adjust a few on the south-west (though I think in the end, I'll just redefine the split and be done with it). I'd much rather maintain the "minus masks", than completely new mapshapes... A man can always dream :-) (talk) 11:13, 9 August 2018
It's often possible to "approximate" the region/district map you have in mind by combining sub-region or sub-district polygons from OSM, although many are not yet linked to Wikidata. This allows you to compose pretty much arbitrary districts for cities by combining individual neighborhoods, for example. If neighborhoods are not defined, then a custom map on Commons, like Renek78 suggested, is probably the preferred option. Brussels is a good example, with its map hosted here. Note that these custom maps, although necessary for some articles, should be the exception rather than the rule because they're much harder to maintain than OSM polygons. This should be only considered for regions and districts which already have a clear overview of the distribution of their POIs so that frequent changes to these maps can be avoided. ArticCynda (talk) 11:16, 9 August 2018 (UTC)(UTC)
Yup, the missing wiki-osm linking for the small regions (like municipality/city/town/village boundaries) is the biggest issue for that approach... It's a lot of work either way, though I think the linking of Wikidata to OSM is a bit more future-proof and valuable for other projects too, in this case. (talk) 11:21, 9 August 2018 (UTC) drawing custom maps is fairly quick if you use JOSM to draw polygons of regions, then export them as GPX and convert them into GeoJSON. The .map file can be linked directly, with few manual edits necessary. Distilling mapshapes for individual districts from that is another story, though... I haven't found a way to automate that yet. ArticCynda (talk) 11:25, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, that's interesting! --Alexander (talk) 11:20, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
Some minor thoughts
  • This should assist in getting coordinates which can be very useful in doing any manual coding.
  • Building mapframes and maplinks is a very simple task with the several methods that currently exist (templates, modules and static data files)
  • Wikidata, Wikipedia and Wikivoyage names/labels do not necessarily match but should not present any major issues.
  • Putting appropriate OSM links into Wikidata needs to be accomplished as wikidata is supposed to be a base point for many of the map tasks. Prague has some 91? pieces of which only 7-9 have OSM links and just as few WV matching articles. The opposite is also needs to be examined and a lot of OSM entries need to be addressed and matched up or created as well.
  • Insuring Wikidata has all the administrative units entered into Wikidata appropriately as well as insuring that each unit has its own Wikidata record etc. This would make life easier to do module lookups etc.
  • Wikidata records that have NO NAME should be looked at and corrected. (Prague has 2 I believe)
  • Using Data records from Commons is fine to do; however, how does one determine whether they are to be used or not and which ones exist. Can read a Commons entry in a Wikidata record to see if it begins with Data I suppose is one way.
  • Building artificial or arbitrary regions/districts by combining a group of other admin units. Can be done easily enough if matching OSM entries exist. Just a matter of determining what to combine and a little bit of extra coding.
  • Some of what you are doing, I believe can be done using a module directly from Wikivoyage rather than externally though in the opposite direction. In either case, keep up with the ideas. -- Best wishes -- Matroc (talk) 04:01, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
I wouldn't count on "combining admin units" as a way to generate the boundaries for a Wikivoyage article, as often the boundaries do not align. One runs into silliness like w:Cloyne, Ontario – a tiny speck-on-the-map hamlet where the main street is the county line. Wikivoyage avoids the issue by moving the boundaries to force the entire unincorporated village into Addington Highlands instead of chopping it in half with all the wisdom of Solomon. A boundary generated based on administrative units would not handle something like this gracefully, nor will it handle the case where the city sprawls that little bit across the county line into rural countryside. We include the suburb with the adjacent city, not with some more distant city which happens to be on the same side of the admin boundary. K7L (talk) 04:49, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
I agree when OSM is off and does not meet requirements; the need for creativity arises, one may have to experiment and resort to other methods/avenues (There will always be exceptions). The use of wikidata admin units is but one suggestion as an approach for gathering information to use or not. -- Matroc (talk) 09:18, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Mapshape of NoHo not identical with the one in OpenStreetMap[edit]

Map of Travellers' pub

Another funny issue: The mapshape of NoHo/Manhattan looks differently here than on OSM. How's that possible again?--Renek78 (talk) 09:54, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Looks like the NoHo wikidata ID is used by two areas actually: way/482797187 and relation/8398111. So I guess Kartographer just merges those? (talk) 10:16, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks! That was the reason for both boundaries! I cleaned them up in OSM. --Renek78 (talk) 11:49, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Update: Same goes for Upper West Side. Is there any other place than OSM where Wikidata could get the shapes?--Renek78 (talk) 10:06, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

This is quite a wide-ranging problem; most of the mapshapes for English counties are also wrong, because the Wikidata item uses the modern administrative county, which has different boundaries to those of the ceremonial counties we use on WV. How would one go about changing this? Somehow, the WV article needs to link to the Wikidata item for the ceremonial counties.
With respect to the NYC neighbourhoods issue, is it possible there's a similar problem of there being multiple definitions of which areas exactly places like the Upper West Side and NoHo encompass? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:29, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
One thought is to create a Data file and put it in Commons thus avoiding the use of defined OSM boundaries... This would be an external file with page parameter. May require some extra work, but I think that might work -- Matroc (talk) 21:41, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Sorry for delayed response, @Matroc:; this must have got buried. To be honest, and forgive me, I don't understand your comment, because my technical expertise is limited. But if you think that would work, whoever decided to take it on would have my full support. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:58, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Linking to an online map[edit]

I'm writing Maps, and of course I'm linking to a lot of map services, which is not normally policy but in this situation there's obviously a reason. But I also want to link to a map that's out of proportion to give travelers an example of what a map looks like when it's not to scale. Is this permitted according to policy? If not, are there any maps on WV/Commons that are like this that I could use for the maps article? Selfie City (talk) 21:09, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

technical question[edit]

Is it possible to get a list of just the interwikis in a specific article? If so, how does one do that? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 22:12, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, something like this might be possible example wikivoyage and wikiquote searching Jerusalem Q1218 - Also check the panel on the left of an article page - there are links there as well:

What is the point of having articles like this one?[edit]

In my opinion, the article is too small. Is this even a place of interest to tourists? I thought it was decided that the English Wikivoyage would only have articles of places that are of interest to travelers and not have articles about any place just because it is on the map. ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 14:19, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out such an article exists. If this place passes the sleep test, hopefully someone can expand it — either through someone who has been there or someone who is willing to do research about the place. Selfie City (talk) 14:30, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
Instead of complaining, you could just do something about it. Either expand the article if there's something to add, or merge it to a nearby place / the next level up in the hierarchy. If you think this is a unique case, let me disabuse you; there are plenty of outline articles like this on English Wikivoyage. They don't all need a pub debate. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:40, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
What harm is it doing? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:07, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
Or, what harm was it doing. ThunderingTyphoons! redirected it to Central Tennessee. I think this did have article potential, so I'm not sure about redirecting. Selfie City (talk) 16:10, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
If you can find a single thing to see or do there, and put that information in what was a completely empty article, along with the single possible sleep listing (a Hampton Inn, I think), and somewhere to get food, then by all means reinstate it. But a Google search for "things to do in White House, TN" came up with absolutely zilch. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:13, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
Made a disambiguation page to include a well-known destination known by the same name. /Yvwv (talk) 16:15, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────According to TripAdvisor, there are 6 hotels in White House. Selfie City (talk) 16:22, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I think the disambiguation page should be restored & a link added to it for Casablanca, which is "white house" in Spanish.
As for " I thought it was decided that the English Wikivoyage would only have articles of places that are of interest to travelers and not have articles about any place just because it is on the map", that does more-or-less hold for actual articles but it is very common to have redirects for lesser places. Pashley (talk) 16:29, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
6 hotels and what else? The sleep test can only apply if there's a reason for travellers to spend the night somewhere. The disambiguation solution is perfect. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:31, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
I did a bit of looking around, and AFAICT the best reason to go to White House is if you can't find a hotel room in Hendersonville (Tennessee). White House has a population of about 11,000 (and booming), but I couldn't find much to do in the city. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:15, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Non-WV-related links on user pages[edit]

Do we (or should we) have any guidelines re editors putting non-WV-related links on their own user pages? How far do we go in tolerating link spamming by editors on their own user pages? Nurg (talk) 10:34, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

We don't want any links which could be considered touting or otherwise breach data protection / safeguarding / decency rules, but other than that, I'm not sure we should prohibit what people want to link to from their userpage.
Just to help us out, do you have any examples as to what you're referring to, in order to establish whether this is a problem? If you want to avoid singling out individual users, you could just post the links here and not say which userpage they're from. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:21, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
I'd say if a user actually contributes to the guide & not just to their own page, then a single link to their employer or a place they own is fine. Pashley (talk) 13:22, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
My own page is pretty tame in this regard - the only external link I show is to Wikipedia's main page. L. Challenger (talk) 13:58, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
The example I'm thinking of is 4 links to pages aimed at converting people to a religion. The user is an active contributor to the guide, not a drive-by link spammer. Nurg (talk) 09:42, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
I've seen users link to their personal blog which may or may not be related to travel but haven't in recent times seen links to convert people to a religion. I don't really know whether they're acceptable. Wikipedia has a general user page policy on what's prohibited (Link) but the principles are quite broad and don't help all that much here. It does say however that extensive promotional material not related to Wikimedia should be avoided. Gizza (roam) 11:20, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
Four links to something off-topic would, in my interpretation, count as pretty "extensive promotional material". I think one link would be alright, because the religion is clearly important to the user, and they are entitled to share elements of their personal life to whatever degree they wish. Perhaps you, Nurg, could have a quiet word with the user in question? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:23, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm strongly opposed to shutting down one's religious views without their consent, whether the user is still active or not. At best doing this seems pointless, and at worst it's tampering with someone's user page and a message of hate toward their viewpoints. Why should we remove them, really? Why should we remove them unless we're trying to remove people's personal opinions from the website. If someone doesn't want to read Gospel tracts, that is fine, but why should we remove all trace of the tracts from LM's user page without permission? ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:05, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
Well, like I said, one link is fine because the beliefs matter to the user. Four was pushing it, because at the end of the day material designed to convert the reader into an evangelical Christian is promotional, even if tax-exempt and not-for-profit. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:14, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I've only re-added one link (Nurg had removed them all). However, I do not see linking to tracts as promotional, any more than an article about evolution would be seen as promotional (or not, as the case may be), or a link to a page attempting to convert to Islam, Buddhism, or even a political party or something of that nature. People should be absolutely allowed to present their religious beliefs on this website, especially since we're not out here to exclude people from believing what they believe. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:30, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

I just fail to see what any of this has to do with creating a travel guide. Do we have to be like WP and spell this out? K7L (talk) 00:11, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Well, actually, four links to articles trying to push the theory of evolution / Islam / Buddhism / a political party onto readers would be equally promotional, in my books, and equally irrelevant to Wikivoyage. Stating such is not a "message of hate", it's an enforcement of our rules against touting, which are not limited to touting for financial gain, in my view.
"People should be absolutely allowed to present their religious beliefs on this website" - nobody has disagreed with that. Yet beliefs can be presented without a list of links to literature designed to convert the reader to a faith. My Wikipedia user page has dozens of userboxes which more or less summarise me as a person, including morality, politics, philosophy, religion etc, but not one of them links to an external source or prosletyses/attempts to win people over to my beliefs. Do you see the difference?
"We're not out here to exclude people from believing what they believe" - I agree, but that is not what has happened here. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 00:13, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
I do not think he is touting but rather trying to spread to others what he believes is the truth. Is there really anything wrong with him doing that? ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 00:28, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm with Selfie City. As much as I'd like to stick it to LM one last time, I think that outside of really egregious cases, we need to leave userspace alone. If he were hassling other editors directly that would be one thing, but such links - even four of them - on his user page is benign. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:32, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I think it's best to leave user pages alone unless we're talking about obvious vandals, when we just delete the pages completely. Removing links to Gospel tracts could be seen as a way of targeting one's religious faith, as well. (By the way, the previous sentence is the best wording I have used for describing this. It's the point I'm really trying to make here.) ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 00:40, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
So now we're no longer a tourism guide, we're a web hosting service for religious texts unrelated to travel? In that case, could you please give equal time in the interest of freedom of religion? K7L (talk) 01:05, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Sure, if someone comes onto this site and believes a conspiracy theory of some sort, they can put it up on their user page or not. But what we're discussing here isn't a conspiracy theory, and you know it very well. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:18, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Don't exaggerate, K7L. We've always taken a hands-off approach with other users' userspace. It's not as if he's linking to child porn or other illegal content, and again, it's also not as if he's ever proselytized directly to any of us. He's not even an active user anymore. There's no benefit to messing with his userpage, and plenty of drawback in terms of the precedent set by the outcome of this discussion. Leave well enough alone. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:20, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
I agree with Andre. Sure, if there were 100 links to religious content on his page, we'd be able to consider that excessive without controversy, but 4? Leave well enough alone. No-one has to look at his user page if they don't want to. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:45, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
I think that non-interference is a good approach.
Also, who cares? This page gets 20 times as many page views. The main page gets 300 times as many page views. Why does anybody think that four links on a page that (a) almost nobody is going to ever read and (b) even fewer people will actually click on is an important use of anyone's time? Having established the general principle that a few links is usually okay, but a lot is usually not, let's just leave it alone. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:29, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Of Taxis and Uber[edit]

I have a conundrum. The small group of cities that I'm a Docent for all have entries for getting around by Taxi - but between my own experiences, the experiences of people I know and yes, even Yelp - old-fashioned taxi services are getting increasingly avoided because of prices, lousy customer service skills and a host of other reasons that I've heard and seen mentioned. The people I know have by and large turned exclusively to services like Uber and Lyft for a host of reasons, among them reliability and price, and even my own experience seems to correlate. Should I start nudging listings for these services into the city listings, or not? L. Challenger (talk) 13:13, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

I think the general rule should be to shortly note whether the ride hailing services are present or illegal or what the situation is and then move on. Linking to the same WV:Boring chain a trillion billion million times imho smacks of touting. And yes, I dislike the "sharing economy" especially in the arrogance and ignorance many techies exhibit when approaching stuff they want to "disrupt", but that is besides the point... Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:12, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
I think that we should list app taxis in the Get around section of cities. There is probably less need to provide a link because you can't book the taxi from the web page, and generally I would not recommend these services to those who don't know how to get the app. It is much more useful to say how they are regulated within the city - are there the same checks on vehicles and drivers as regular taxis, are they allowed to use the same routes as regular taxis (e.g. in cities where taxis are allowed to use bus lanes). AlasdairW (talk) 20:39, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
{{edit conflict}} Here in Finland the law on taxis changed, and now competing call centres have appeared at least in Helsinki. It seems Uber is going to work like any other of those companies (requiring the driver to have a taxi licence). I suppose one should list companies serving a large part of the country in the country article and local companies in city articles, with phone number and links. I do not really buy the "boring" argument, as few taxi companies are an experience in their own right (unless in the "no bad reviews" sense). Leaving out the dominating actor from a list because it is too big doesn't really seem to benefit the traveller (there is of course no need to repeat national phone numbers, reviews or instructions). -LPfi (talk) 20:56, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback and ideas for this! After examining the options and possibilities, I think the most I will do is indicate that ride hailing services are legal and in frequent use in the cities and simply leave it at that. It bears noting the the home city of Uber and Lyft is in fact not terribly far from myself or the places I docent. L. Challenger (talk) 20:44, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
L. Challenger - Sorry for coming to this discussion late. For another option, check out what I did with Buffalo#Ride sharing: start by "indicat[ing] that ride hailing services are legal and in frequent use" and then ballpark what you might reasonably expect to pay, and mention any special circumstances e.g. airport pickup restrictions. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:48, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, Andre Carrotlower, I think implementing the way you handled that and rentals look like something that I should have implemented long before now. :-) L. Challenger (talk) 01:00, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Articles needing attention[edit]

  • There used to be a category for Double Redirects - are we no longer concerned with them. -- Matroc (talk) 00:15, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
    • It is under Special pages. Currently in a good state. --Traveler100 (talk) 00:26, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
      • Thanks... No wonder! - I was looking at incorrect Category Page - Yikes! I better hang it up -- Matroc (talk) 00:31, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
On a different needing attention topic, a new check of articles with dead external links has been run (thanks Ryan). At the end of February's cotm we had no guide or star status articles with bad urls. This is back up to 507 as of today. --Traveler100 (talk) 00:32, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

El Castaño[edit]

Can someone take a second look at the article El Castaño. I cannot locate the village or the organisation mentioned and the coordinates in the article do not match those of the Wikidata page. --Traveler100 (talk) 20:59, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

I have updated the article a bit, corrected the coords, linked it to the correct WD item and corrected WD (though I'm not sure what title to give it in WD, as "El Castaño" is ambiguous). It seems like the name of the organisation may be different now - maybe Centro Turístico Costa Verde, or Centro Ecoturístico Costa Verde, I'm not sure. Nurg (talk) 11:16, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, I was not sure were it was. Just looking at mismatches between sites. --Traveler100 (talk) 11:35, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Euronet ATM transactions[edit]

Euronet Logo
Wrong map!!! Sorry.

In Italy I encountered ATM's of the brand Euronet, not a European but a US-based company. I tried to get money from it, but was confronted with a fee. Happily I could abort the transaction. My Dutch bank card has the Maestro logo, and in countries that have the Euro as their national currency, banks may not charge costs for getting money from the ATM's. Is the different way of Euronet a reason for adding a warning? A map I found using the search function, suggests that they are active in Italy, Poland and The Netherlands. In The Netherlands I never encountered one, but I have my regular ATM to get money, so maybe they are there but I never noticed. --FredTC (talk) 11:01, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

It may be worth putting a note about this in the Money article and in Europe#ATM section. --Traveler100 (talk) 11:36, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
The language in Europe#ATMs seems to suggest this, although it could be less vague, if somebody knows for sure. The JESC map seems to be about the Junior Eurovision Song Contest, according to description, although I do not know why the Netherlands and Belarus (not Poland) are shown. --LPfi (talk) 12:41, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
Sorry for the wrong map, it was a result from a search for euronet, but I did not check it well enough. --FredTC (talk) 14:05, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
I vaguely remember that the thing is that teller machine companies may not discriminate: if getting money from an account in one bank is free, getting money from another EU account must also be. As getting money from your own bank's ATM is usually free, those ATMs are free for all. I do not know how foreign cards and currencies other than the euro are handled. As the Euronet machines probably take fees from everybody, they would be allowed to do so. I do not know whether the warning is explicitly required, but silently taking money from you is hardly allowed. --LPfi (talk) 12:55, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
I guess Euronet has a legal construction that allows it to ask money for the transactions with their ATM's. The may not discriminate is for banks in Europe, so I guess Euronet simply is not a bank and therefore allowed to operate ATM's without the rules that apply to the banks. For people from non-euro countries it is even worse I fear, because the exchange rate is very bad. See here for some experience information. --FredTC (talk) 14:05, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
It is not only banks. Over here the banks do not run the ATMs (but a company running them). But yes, if you take money from everybody, that is not discriminating (except against the poor, but let's not go into that). --LPfi (talk) 19:58, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

New travel topics[edit]

I have some ideas for some new travel topics.

  • Star Trek tourism
  • Spanish-American War historical travel
  • Mission Trip survival guide
  • Druze religion travel

Libertarianmoderate (talk) 13:06, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

I suppose at least some of those could be written, but I very much prefer one good travel topic article to a dozen outlines. If you are going to write those yourself, plunge forward, but start with the one you are best at and try to make it reasonably complete before starting the next one. I do not understand what the survival guide is about. If it is about how to survive as a missionary, I suppose it is hard to write sensibly, and easy to fill with prejudices. And I know nothing about Druze religion travel. --LPfi (talk) 14:57, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
While I appreciate your enthusiasm, I think limiting yourself to a few things at a time rather than getting bogged down in myriads of outlines is the better course of action. At any rate, you can also try out ideas that may or may not be fit for mainspace in your user space. Just take the URL of your userpage and add /whateveritisyouwantthearticletobe and then click on "create page". So for example Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:15, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Need help[edit]

I messed up, guys. I need a space between 'Racine' and 'County' in RacineCounty. DethDestroyerOfWords (talk) 21:12, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

I've given you all the space you need. Ground Zero (talk) 21:15, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, it's a very emotional time in my editing life and I appreciate your assistance. DethDestroyerOfWords (talk) 21:17, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Would anyone here by any chance be able to fix the following bug at the Hebrew Wikivoyage ?[edit]

Ever since we started using listings on the Hebrew Wikivoyage (a long time ago) we had a major bug with the listings that has never been fixed - there is no edit button to any of the listings on the Hebrew Wikivoyage (see example here). The bug prevents users from editing listing in a visual input window (as is possible on the English Wikivoyage). Would anyone here by any chance be able to fix this bug? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 21:58, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Traveling with a Third World passport[edit] (koavf)TCM 21:33, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Mentioning a user[edit]

When I mention a user I write it like this:


Besides {{ping}}, are there any other, easier ways to type in a reference to someone's user name? Just asking in case I've been doing it the long way all this time. Thanks. Selfie City (talk) 04:05, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

There's also {{to}} -- WOSlinker (talk) 06:40, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm using the normal wikicode editor (not the visual editor), and I think it's very easy to click the link icon above the editing window, type the user name and click insert link. ϒpsilon (talk) 13:11, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
Or you can use the w:Help:Pipe_trick by just writing [[User:SelfieCity|]], which will automatically expand to [[User:SelfieCity|SelfieCity]] when previewing or saving your edit. Xsobev (talk) 11:34, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, Xsobev. And yes, I wrote that using the "Pipe trick". Selfie City (talk) 14:18, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Wikidata and pagebanners[edit]

Why are we farming out more and more of our banners to Wikidata? Some reasons in support of keeping the information locally are:

  1. It would make changing banners easier and quicker; edits made on Wikidata can take anything from a few minutes to several hours to become visible on Wikivoyage, leaving you uncertain as to whether the edit was successful.
  2. In the time lapse described above, a Wikidata user could have reverted your change, with good reason: it's not their job to understand or cater to the needs of our wiki.
  3. The longer editing process and delay described above are unnecessarily confusing, especially to newer users. This goes against our general tendency to keep things simple: minimal use of templates and images, no photo montages, a relatively restrained bureaucracy, etc. Furthermore, you shouldn't have to know how to use a completely different wiki in order to effectively edit Wikivoyage.
  4. As far as I know, no other wiki uses pagebanners (the other Wikivoyages excepted, but not even all of them do). So hosting banners centrally does not benefit other projects
  5. Keeping banners in Wikivoyage also means that the different language versions can more easily use different banners for their version of an article, as decided by that wiki's community (the Hebrew Wikivoyage seem to like to do their own thing in this regard).
  6. If Wikidata policies towards the banners they host were to change, we might lose control of them completely.

Any thoughts? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:15, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

I see no reason not to put the banner image name on Wikidata but I always enter it explicitly on English Wikivoyage. Are you saying that the file name is being removed from Wikivoyage pages or is it just the case that there is one on Wikidata due to a different language user entering it there? --Traveler100 (talk) 13:34, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
As far as I know, no file names have been removed from WV. Nonetheless, putting the name on Wikidata (whoever does it) results in all of the problems described above. Having the name on Wikivoyage doesn't override what's on Wikidata; in fact it's the opposite. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:36, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
That sounds not preferable. How would a user on wikidata know the style requirements (7:1 and at least 2100 x 300 pixels) here on wikivoyage unless they specifically went looking for them? DethDestroyerOfWords (talk) 13:45, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
Exactly, in fact that is why I decided to post this here, after removing a badly-proportioned banner from Shillong which had been posted to Wikidata. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:49, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
As far as I know entering a banner image name on the Wikivoyage page overwrites the Wikidata setting. And this should definitely stay. --Traveler100 (talk) 14:04, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, actually, it's not quite as bad as I thought. We can, in fact, change between custom banners locally without changing what's on Wikidata. However, if you try to use the Default Pagebanner, as I have done at London, the banner listed on Wikidata remains visible. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:07, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm sorry for wasting people's time on an issue which is far smaller than I first realised; most of the problems listed above are not actually an issue, except in the case of wrongly-formatted banners being added to Wikidata, and there is no alternative available so we want to use the default. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:18, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
Don't be sorry. These issues crop up any time we allow a Wikivoyage article to be dependent on anything hosted on some other wiki - whether it be Commons or Wikidata. We might find a great image, use it in an article somewhere, then have it randomly disappear - with the only notification to us that it was nominated for deletion on Commons being a User:CommonsDelinker bot removing the image: link from the article after it's too late and the image is already gone. tried a version of the {{listing}} template which could populate the fields from a Wikidata listing; they found that the {{vCard}} was breaking when Wikidata admins mistook the records as "not in use" and deleted a few. We're also open to the same issues if we allow {{mapshape}}s to be hosted on Commons; there was an incident a while back where Commons users were accusing us of being liars and worse because some of our content "shared" there contained (lat,long) co-ordinates which looked to be derived from OpenStreetMap, an open source which needs to be reusable. And then there's the whole question of whether content spread across two or three wikis is more difficult for new users to maintain, as the structure is less understandable than one where everything's held locally on the one wiki. All of this is nothing new and it's all been discussed before. K7L (talk) 14:52, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
Just a few notes....
  1. "edits made on Wikidata can take anything from a few minutes to several hours to become visible on Wikivoyage". Untrue - the data are used right after you regenerate the wikipage.
  2. "it was nominated for deletion on Commons" ... what's the usual reason? I'd say copyright issues or similar? In such case, you cannot just copy it to WV and pronounce it OK. Copyright applies also here.
  3. "We're also open to the same issues if we allow {{mapshape}}s to be hosted on Commons". Again, rather than copying suspicious stuff to WV, you should rather explain the source and license of the data at W-commons? (talk) 20:12, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
  1. The purge function is hardly general knowledge, especially not if we speak about new editors. I suppose new editors need not change banners, but it is awkward anyway.
  2. I suppose the problem is mostly with some admins at Commons, who are quite trigger happy. They might delete a file because the permissions were stated (or evidence provided) in a way they are not used to, or other formalia. Or they think a file is not in scope (although files used over here are per definition in scope). You can usually get the file restored through an undeletion request, but you have to note the deletion and know the processes.
  3. The case hinted at had no copyright problems, but the deleting admin did not trust the uploader about the copyright status. It is quite frustrating that a file that has been on Commons for weeks (or years) can be deleted after five days with only a message at the file and the user talk page when an admin thinks there is not enough evidence. If you do not check the pages (or your e-mail, if you have it notify you) every few days, you'll likely just find the file gone.
I think Commons does a splendid job most of the time (Swedish Wikipedia does not have local files, because we trust Commons to do it better than we could). Still, loosing a file or having to fight for its restoration is unpleasant to say the least, even if one has to deal with it only a few times a year.
--LPfi (talk) 20:36, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Isla Palenque[edit]

Would like a second opinion on this. I think the correct location is where the hotel is marked as this fits the description at the start of the article. Wikidata coordinates are a little off but current Wikivoyage geo, Wikipedia and Google Map puts this as an island way off shore. --Traveler100 (talk) 12:56, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

From what I can tell there are three very different coordinate locations in question. The geo coordinates for the article are in the middle of the ocean, the Wikidata coords are around several islands close to shore, and the hotel coords are on a particular island east of the Wikidata coordinates.
It seems pretty clear to me that the Google maps coordinates, which seem to be the same ones as this article's coordinates, are incorrect. I've checked maps and satellite, and there's pretty clearly no island near this point. But if I go to the hotel's coordinates on Google maps, the label "Isla Palenque" shows up. The Wikidata coordinates are basically in the middle of a swamp, so I'm pretty sure the approximate coordinates for Isla Palenque are: 8.1814, -82.255. Selfie City (talk) 15:27, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for checking, had come to the same conclusion but as contradicting a number of sources need confirmation. I have updated the page on this site and removed the error on Wikidata. --Traveler100 (talk) 16:29, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Language menu picture[edit]

On Wikivoyage's language menu, the picture is always the same. Has anyone ever considered changing it every so often? If so, what images would work? Just a thought to make it look more interesting. Selfie City (talk) 19:08, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

There isn't much point, as those who already know Wikivoyage usually skip that page and go directly to the edition in their local language. K7L (talk) 19:14, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I should probably do that myself. Selfie City (talk) 19:24, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
Do we have some stats? I'd even expect that 98% of visitors come via google directly to the destination page... (talk) 19:37, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
I don't think it's spelled G-O-O-G-L-E, it's spelled W-I-K-I-P-E-D-I-A, but yes, it's a direct link to an article on a specific topic and not the menu page.~:) K7L (talk) 20:19, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

I started this instruction page for one of the most useful features on Wikivoyage[edit]

Please help me improve it. ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 10:12, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Website to convert GeoJSON to Mapmask and vice versa[edit]

Hello, CKoerner (WMF), Matroc, Shaundd, Alexander, Yurik, Andrewssi2, RolandUnger, Mey2008, Traveler100, ϒpsilon, Whatamidoing (WMF), Selfie City. Sorry to bother you again.

I know that there is already a tool to create a mapmask out of a gpx (gpx2mapmask).

  • But sometimes I found it handy to "reverse engineer" a mapmask back into a GeoJSON.
  • Furthermore I think it is useful to go straight from GeoJSON to mapmask without the additional need to have a gpx file.

Thus I wrote a little tool which can convert GeoJSON to Mapmask and vice versa: Mapmask <=> GeoJSON Converter

I hope some of you find it helpful for your work. --Renek78 (talk) 15:30, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Renek78, this is awesome! Just in case you might be interested, there is an amazing ObservableHQ platform on which you could also implement it without having to do it on github, plus very easy to see how something is done. Just FYI :) Thanks for doing this! --Yurik (talk) 16:20, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
Hey Yurik, thanks for the link. But I only see some fancy projects there. Not sure whether such a cheap javascript tool like mine has a place there... --Renek78 (talk) 09:10, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Renek78, it doesn't have to be :) Take a look at my small encoder/decoder for RISON format. Use the arrows on the left to see the code for each item. You can simply clone it and just add your javascript. --Yurik (talk) 13:08, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks Yurik. I am going to give it a try. Seems like a nice way for others to understand what has been done.--Renek78 (talk) 13:56, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

What does the other button do?[edit]

If you're on a user page, next to the watchlist button is another button that, according to the caption, "sends the user a message showing your appreciation". I've pressed this a couple times in the past without really knowing quite what it does and what its purpose is. What exactly does it do? --- Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:42, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Apparently it lets you send goats. DethDestroyerOfWords (talk) 20:42, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
It's called "Wikilove", and it gives you a form to fill out, and then posts a message on the user's talk page. You can find out if you've sent one at this wiki by going to this link and changing the username in the box to your own. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:18, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Enable page previews?[edit]

Dear fellow adventurers,

Page previews has been live on Wikipedia for some time. Wikivoyage is the other wiki I frequent, and I miss it when I view pages here. I wondered if this has been talked about. Technically, there is little stopping Wikivoyage from using it, but if adopted it would mean we'd need to think more about leading paragraphs of articles - to ensure the summaries make sense in this context.

e.g. A preview for Spain ( at time of writing would show "Spain shares the Iberian Peninsula with Andorra, Gibraltar, and Portugal. It has the second-largest number of UNESCO World Heritage Sites after Italy and the largest number of World Heritage Cities." Maybe the 2nd paragraph would be more appropriate as a summary: "Spain is famous for its friendly inhabitants, relaxed lifestyle, its cuisine, vibrant nightlife, and world-famous folklore and festivities, and its history as the core of the vast Spanish Empire." Or a new paragraph combining the two would make more sense: "Spain, with the largest number of UNESCO World Heritage cities, is famous for its friendly inhabitants, relaxed lifestyle, its cuisine, vibrant nightlife, and world-famous folklore and festivities, and its history as the core of the vast Spanish Empire"

Just curious what people think about this feature and whether it would need editorial changes to be supported. It seems like a great way to "explore the world"! :) Jdlrobson (talk) 20:58, 20 August 2018 (UTC).

So what enables preview on Wikipedia? Or is it dependent on which browser is being used or browser security settings? --Traveler100 (talk) 21:14, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
What's the point of having it, though? --- Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:44, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
So that when you're reading an article, and you run across the name of some place that you can't quite remember, you can hover over the link and see the first sentence or two, rather than having to click on the link and open another page in yet another browser tab. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:20, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
I like this feature on Wikipedia and support implementing it on Wikivoyage. —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:24, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
In terms of what is needed to enable it - it would be a site request (config change) asking for it to be turned on specifying the following:
  • Should it be enabled for new accounts? (PopupsOptInStateForNewAccounts)
  • Should it be enabled for existing accounts? (PopupsOptInDefaultState)

I think the real challenge here is going to be buy-in for the editorial changes needed to support good previews (which would improve the quality of the travel guide in my opinion). I see two fun problems to solve 1) The use of hatnotes at the top of pages

:''This article is about the city of Salzburg. For the state, see [[Salzburg (state)]].''

appears in the summaries for Salzburg as the summarizer doesn't know this is not part of the article's first paragraph. The use of a template e.g

{{hatnote|This article is about the city of Salzburg. For the state, see [[Salzburg (state)]].}}

would help with this as it would allow us to wrap the message with CSS classes to help it be identified. See to get a sense of the impact here.

2) Certain articles might need improvements to the phrasing of the lead paragraph e.g. The Spain example I cite above.

I don't see either of these 2 problems as huge blockers to deploying this but I wanted to make this clear!

Note, if after enabling it you decide this doesn't make sense or degrades the travel guide, you can use the same form to request it to be disabled and we can disable it promptly.

Jdlrobson (talk) 23:56, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the details. I think it should be enabled for both new accounts and existing accounts. As for the two problems to solve: the hatnote issue seems pretty easy—the current hatnotes could be replaced with a template by bot, right? The other problem basically amounts to a constraint on our lead-writing. To me it seems like a small price to pay for implementing this useful feature, and in general it's probably a good idea to start our leads with an appealing hook anyway. What do others think? —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:23, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
Yes, that's probably the correct approach. Also, note that it auto-disables if you've got NAVPOPS turned on.
I don't think it's going to constrain our lead-writing much. Wikivoyage is already practically perfect for this feature. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:49, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
I've setup the hatnote template for if we go with this. If not then it can be deleted. -- WOSlinker (talk) 08:20, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
thanks @WOSlinker:. I think I have a bot script that can find and replace a good number of these cases. Not sure if it will handle all as some have multiple colons on multiple lines and a few with odd use of quote which are probably better handled by hand rather than trying to wrote some complex script to handle every possible combination. --Traveler100 (talk) 10:16, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
regardless of whether you enable page previews using this would improve rendering on mobile which recognises hatnotes and styles them in such a way that they are noticeably separate from content! Jdlrobson (talk) 15:18, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
Once replaced the colon text with {{hatnote}}, should go though its use and where appropriate replace with the more exact {{Otheruses}}, {{about}}, {{confused}} or {{See also}}. --Traveler100 (talk) 19:01, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

We already have something called Navigation popups, which do exactly the function being described here. Just go to your Preferences, then to the Gadgets tab. Personally, I find it annoying to use all the time, but it does come in handy. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:38, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

NAVPOPS is more complicated/powerful. I think that readers would be much happier with this simpler tool (which, it turns out, was originally based on NAVPOPS). WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:12, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
Hey all, to close up this conversation, I'm just wondering what the next steps are. Is this something that should be enabled, or should I start an RFC or something equivalent? Jdlrobson (talk) 16:34, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Jon, does that belong to your team these days? If so, please just turn it on for everyone here. If not, then please pheel phree to phile a Phab task for whichever team it does belong to. We're not into Process for Process's Sake here. If someone wanted to object, they'd probably have said so by now. It's not difficult to opt out, for anyone who wants to opt out later. And thanks for asking. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:44, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Hey all, per WhatamIdoing's advise I've created phab:T203981 to make this so. Jdlrobson (talk) 18:24, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

High speed rail maps[edit]

This edit added what purports to be a map of the Spanish high speed rail system, which to me however seems highly incomplete. Do we want those mapshapes in country article dynamic maps? Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:16, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Since there's no way for a casual reader to even know what that funny black line is, I suggest not. The UK map is particularly strange looking, highlighting our woeful HSR infrastructure, but ignoring the actual main railway lines which serve the country. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 00:39, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
London has a tail! And it links it to "the continent"... Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:43, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Spain shouldn't have a dynamic map anyway, as it already has a static one. I've deleted the redundant map accordingly. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:09, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
I'd remove it on the basis that such a mapshape is more in its place in an article specifically for (high speed) rail travel in Spain rather than the article for Spain itself. If infrastructure should be highlighted with {{mapshapes}} on country articles, then I'd argue that that should be highways instead, but personally, I'm not in favour of adding that either.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 14:24, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
MSG17 is the user who has been adding the HSR to dynamic maps, and (s)he deserves to have a say here. @MSG17: What say you? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:34, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
I'd say that it's fair to move or remove them - there's not any real identifying marks for the lines (no specific colors or anything), and since the lines are not very important to trip-planning due to the concept of through services (the lines don't really matter if trains can shift lines or transfer cars to different trains), it doesn't really help the traveller. The "funny black lines" comment is apt and accurate. It might be better to move the lines to corresponding high speed rail pages, especially since the European lines are rather interconnected. There are some exceptions, such as the Taiwan HSR (only one line connecting major cities) and maybe some more regional projects (like the Hainan ring railways), but for the most part it may be better to move lines to the corresponding rail articles. I will start moving the lines out of the current dynmaps at least - they can interfere with clicking on regions. Thanks for the ping - this discussion is great. MSG17 (talk) 15:51, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for your flexibility. We don't have many High-speed rail articles - just the main one, and one for China and South Korea. The static maps on those pages are kept well updated, so unless a dynamic map could offer something more, I can't see a need for them.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:15, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

@AndreCarrotflower: Where is that discussion we were having about this issue (static and dynamic maps on the same page) a few weeks ago? I can't find it anywhere.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:07, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

@ThunderingTyphoons!: - User talk:AndreeBot#Duplicate maps. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 14:26, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, that's the one. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:31, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Don't highways show up anyway if you zoom in enough? Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:43, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

WV:Requested articles[edit]

A user is now edit-warring Wikivoyage:Requested articles to systematically remove (or slushpile) all suggestions which were made two years ago. I believe there is no consensus to do this and it is doing more harm than good to the project, as burying valid ideas actually reduces the chance of the articles being created.

I have already raised the issue on Wikivoyage talk:Requested articles, only for my concerns to be pointedly ignored. Could anyone who hasn't been following this please take a look at Wikivoyage talk:Requested articles and the associated subpages? I'd like a second opinion on this. Thanks. K7L (talk) 17:27, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Prove to me where a user is edit warring. Also, you know where this discussion belongs, so again please watch your tone. --- Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:25, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
K7L, you are trying to make out that you are unbiased and unreasonable. However, the opposite is the case. You have been continually hostile to the "slushpile" idea (as you call it and no-one else does) for article requests. Go to Wikivoyage:Requested articles/Old requests, it is clear who was going against consensus. When Granger voiced objections to the creation of the new page but without seeing the objections I went ahead and made the change, I apologized for not seeing those late objections (late not in a bad way, you understand), and then we agreed to change the name of the page. --- Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:33, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
"No-one else", except maybe you, many times? If you're unhappy about the name, then please go back to the discussion on that talk page and propose a better one. If you're unhappy about the fact that suggested articles are still visible, instead of being buried in history, then please don't complain about trivialities like the name of the archive, and instead see whether the Wikivoyage:Deletion policy would realistically permit these ideas for articles to be deleted.
(Everyone else: A w:en:Slush pile is publishing jargon. Usually, publishing interns look through it when they're bored, to see if anything interesting is lost in it.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:11, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
I am happy to hear any objections to this whole thing, but please keep them reasonable. Ground Zero, I am happy to hear your comment on the latest developments in the situation, along with other users (including those who disagreed with the idea in the first place). --- Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:42, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
@WhatamIdoing: it was originally called a slush pile, but then the name was changed to "old requests". I called it that before the name was changed, while K7L is still calling it a slush pile despite the name change. --- Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:16, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Also, no, I do not want to see these ideas removed. Also I am not unhappy about the current name. What bothers me is how K7L refuses to reasonably object and instead forces his/her views upon everyone else until everyone else gives in. --- Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:20, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Sorry that I keep making one comment after another, but I think this is an important part of the issue here @WhatamIdoing, K7L: K7L was the person who created what they called the slushpile. --- Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:40, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

I agree with K7L. A "requested article" that was suggested five years ago is no less likely to be taken up on than one that's was suggested five days ago. There's no reason to archive or slush old entries, and any that were ought to be de-archived or de-slushed or whatever word you want to use. In fact, if anything, the ones that have been outstanding longer ought to be more visible than the newer ones. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:41, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
What's clear now is that there never was consensus to archive old requests as I assumed. In that case, we can always go back to the old method, where everything was on one page, or we can divide up the requests into categories as I believe Gizza suggested.
See, I am not opposed to reverting my work on this; what I resent is the use of words like "edit war" when they are untrue accusations. --- Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:46, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
After spending a few minutes reading through the discussion about the capitalization of "Travellers' Pub" or whatever, and some thinking about this, and I really think this is one of those situations where it really doesn't matter: by adding the change, all it means is one more click to see older requests. As it is, I have to continually wait here for the latest commentary on the situation. Honestly, I don't care anymore whether we keep an older requests page or not ... yes, K7L, I guess we could say you've won. It's always tempting not to contribute and just talk, and these types of discussions, with accusations, etc., are the worst sort. I'll quote an AndreCarrotflower statement from back in 2013 when the capitalization of this page was fiercely debated over:
"I feel the need to be very careful in how I word this comment. But frankly, it needs to be said. This is a problem that's been playing itself out over and over again since the migration. And it's been getting worse, not better, over time. The problem I am talking about is that people - more than one person; probably a majority of us who have been active in policy discussions lately, myself included - have, in discussions like this, been so gung-ho about advocating for their individual vision of how Wikivoyage should be that they've been completely deaf to others' concerns. We've been so busy talking about why we should absolutely change something, or absolutely not change something, that we've been unable to listen to alternative points of view which may be quite valid ... What I want from Wikivoyage—far more than a place where the Village Pump equivalent is called the Traveller's Pub rather than just the Pub, far more than a place where getting someone's permission before nominating them for administrative duties is a hard-and-fast rule rather than just a custom, far more than (insert reference to recent molehill-made-mountain here)—is a place where I can write about Buffalo without having to worry about too much. I think most people here feel the same way about their respective writing projects."
I would significantly prefer removing the "old requests" page and restoring the situation before all this debate rather than have this whole discussion escalate and perhaps end at the user bans page or something of that nature. Hopefully this will be my final comment on a thread that never should have been in the — should I write "pub" or Pub? ;) — in the first place. --- Selfie City (talk | contributions) 00:14, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Budget bracketing for empoverished countries[edit]

Does anyone else find the three bracket system a bit weak in countries with huge wealth disparity? The "budget" section is filled with a mix of places that have a tenfold price difference and I for one think it makes it unwieldy, people after a one dollar room aren't the same people looking for a ten or twenty dollar room.

The "splurge" category often has the same issue but often only has a few entries.

I love the wikivoyage conformity, and I can see a value in doing nothing - but maybe a fourth "squalid" bracket help.. Or redefining the brackets in genuinely cheap countries.

Just a thought. —The preceding comment was added by Billbarrelrider (talkcontribs)

Defining based on country is probably the way to go, indeed that is what we already do (even if it isn't stated in most articles).--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:45, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
At Cebu_(city)#Sleep someone added a "Backpacker hostels" sub-heading separate from Budget. That is certainly better than "squalid", but is it a general solution? Pashley (talk) 14:09, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
Often, we do split accommodations by type (hotel, motel, tent camping, cabins, bed and breakfast, caravan/RV park, caves for sleepy bears, whatever...) or by location instead of splitting by price range. K7L (talk) 14:46, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
There aren't any globally defined price limits for the "budget", "mid range" and "splurge" ranges. They depend on the price level in the destination the article is about. The most affordable places to eat and sleep go in budget, no matter how expensive they are, and the most expensive places go in splurge no matter how cheap they are. ϒpsilon (talk) 14:57, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
The problem, I suppose, is that backpacker places tend to go to Budget, even where also backpackers are rich and spending fortunes by local standards. The problem is that you have to realize a specific region is poor enough that backpackers' standard is middle range and not budget. The second problem, mentioned above, is that the middle and splurge sections cover large ranges of prices. I suppose that is a problem also with New York's or Paris' Splurge, so we mostly just have to live with it, but the problem of backpackers' places being midrange is something we should raise awareness about. The problem is made more serious by that you hardly find the local budget places on Internet or in tourist brochures. --LPfi (talk) 09:57, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Historical travel vs Historical tourism[edit]

In Talk:Historical travel I suggested the page to be moved to historical tourism. Please provide feedback. /Yvwv (talk) 14:54, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Wikivoyage mentors[edit]

Hi all.

I've had an idea which may help to increase our rate of retention among newbies - what if we were to set up a one-to-one mentoring/buddy programme whereby more experienced Wikivoyagers could register their willing to help new editors?

Anyone who looks through Special:RecentChanges on a regular basis will know that there has been an upsurge in new accounts created since the highly successful editathon, but many of those editors don't stick around beyond a few days or weeks. We don't know why this might be, but one possible reason could be that new editors don't really know what they're doing and find our Manual of Style and policies too confusing or overwhelming. Maybe they have had their work undone by one of us on Recent Change patrol and have felt disheartened or unwelcome. Maybe they find the prospect of posting in the pub for help, in front of the whole community, intimidating, and just want a 'friendly face' (of sorts) they know and trust whom they can turn to if in difficulty. This is where a Wikivoyage mentor could be useful.

So, how would it work? Obviously if the community thinks this is a good idea in principle, but don't like my vision, we can change the details, but my vision is as follows:

  • There will be a new page called something like Wikivoyage:Mentors. On this page, experienced Wikivoyagers* who are willing and able to offer mentoring will be able to write their username. This would be a bit like the list of admins willing to answer questions, which has apparently stalled. A potential mentor can also state how many mentees they are willing to take on and indicate their current availability.
  • The welcome message sent to new users' talk pages will be modified to include a sentence pointing the user to the Mentor page.
  • New users will be able to contact available mentors at their user talkpage and ask them to work with them more closely.
  • The mentor role will be a supervisory one. They will keep track of their mentee's edits, offer advice when they think it's needed, and tell or show them the correct way of doing a number of daily Wikivoyage tasks (using article templates and standard headings, adding and using listings, inserting images and banners, formatting and wikicode, signing comments...)
  • The mentor will also be that mentee's first point of contact when (s)he has a question, problem, idea, concern, or is in a dispute with another editor.
  • The mentor/mentee relationship will be entirely voluntary, and not subject to nominations.
  • Either mentor or mentee will be able to terminate the agreement at any point.
  • The mentor will not be in charge of the mentee or their edits, nor will they be responsible for any misdemeanours committed by the mentee.
  • In the case of a dispute, it will not be the role of the mentor to take the side of their mentee, but simply to advise them and make sure that policy is upheld.
  • The mentor will be responsible for letting their mentee(s) know when they are going to be unavailable, either temporarily or permanently.
  • In the interests of safeguarding, both mentors and mentees will be encouraged to keep their communications on Wikivoyage, and not share personal details about themselves beyond what they disclose on their userpage.

*We will have to decide what "experienced Wikivoyagers" means. I suggest that anyone willing to be a mentor must have at least a year's experience and/or a certain number of edits to their name before they are eligible to put themselves forward. I would be against restricting the opportunity to be a mentor to certain user groups such as admins.

Any questions? Comments? Thoughts? Problems? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:51, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea, and I think it has been done somewhat in the past. I'm biased, but I think perhaps "experienced Wikivoyagers" could be decided by someone being an autopatroller perhaps, as an alternative to your idea? Because while policy isn't super difficult, it's tough at first, and it is sometimes hard for the more experienced Wikivoyagers to understand why new editors are doing things that don't line up with policy. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:12, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
As a new contributor, I fully support this idea. While I have made many edits and additions to the project, I want to be certain that such edits are in line with WV policy. Having a mentor to occasionally coach and give advice in that regard would be helpful. Americannomad1776 (talk) 17:14, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
The w:en:WP:Teahouse approach (a well-advertised talk page specifically for new contributors) scales better. A couple of mentors can help a hundred new editors a month, and the risk of getting a "dud" mentor, or your mentor going on vacation just when you need to ask something, is significantly reduced. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:18, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
I think both a teahouse and mentors would be a good idea, mentors for one-on-one help and the teahouse for more general questions. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:58, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
As someone who has been here since the Wikitravel days, I am happy to do whatever I can to help. The dog2 (talk) 19:35, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
So are there any objections to creating a "Teahouse" of some sort? If not, should we go ahead and create a page? What should we call it? --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 20:02, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
The Departure Lounge (because it's a starting point?) Ground Zero (talk) 20:06, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────But that makes it sound like they're leaving the site! --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 20:11, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

It would be the Departure Lounge for their Wikivoyage, not from Wikivoyage. Ground Zero (talk) 21:00, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
I too would like to see (if mentors become a thing, that is) a combination of Teahouse and one-on-one mentorship. Regarding the issue of mentors going on a vacation: I, as well as other members here have a overview of previous and upcoming vacations and get-aways. We could always give mentors the ability to refer to a different mentor that isn't on vacation while they are and who is willing to help the mentees whose mentor is away should they have any pressing and urgent questions. General questions can instead be asked in the Teahouse.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 20:18, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Yes, since the importance of this mentors thing should be the 1-on-1 help from an experienced Wikivoyager. Mentorship should be long-term (for several months), so 1 week on vacation shouldn't really be a huge issue. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 20:42, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Also, when it comes to naming the teahouse: what about calling it the "Learners' Pub" or the Learner's Lounge". --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 20:44, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

It's really great to see the enthusiasm for this idea from several Wikivoyagers both old and new.

Another idea for the teahouse name, riffing on GZ's suggestion, which I do like: the Arrivals Hall.

So we can either copy the 'pedia template of their teahouse, or model it after the Tourist Office. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:12, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

I like the "Arrivals Hall" name (or even "Arrivals Lounge"). IMO, we should model it after the tourist office. I'm not to keen on Wikipedia's Teahouse design. I'd like to see it get started as soon as possible.
One another thing: you know the welcome template? Could we expand the welcome message to include a link to the new page? --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 21:18, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Yes, here's the current "welcome" template:
Hello, user! Welcome to Wikivoyage.
To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. If you are familiar with Wikipedia, take a look over some of the differences here.
We could surely add a sentence to it, mentioning the new page. Also, how easy would it be to add a link to this new page from Wikivoyage's sidebar? Otherwise, the page might get more or less abandoned. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 21:20, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
@ThunderingTyphoons!: I quickly drafted this based on the text found at the top of this page. Feel free to add to it if you want. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 21:31, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for starting that :-) To be honest, I don't have any ideas for the Arrivals Lounge; if I get any, I'll be sure to write them down. On the other hand, I'm happy to take charge of setting up a mentoring scheme.
Now we have established that there is some interest in the idea, could I trouble people to offer feedback on the 'rules' I set out in the original post? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:50, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Yes, so I'll move the "Arrivals lounge" page to "Wikivoyage" space, and then I'll consider your above "rules" for the mentorship, which IMO should be separate from the Arrivals Lounge. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 23:06, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
I've moved it to WV space, so new users can now go to the arrivals lounge and ask questions. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 23:12, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Excellent. I've kicked things off with a question to get it going, and sprinkled links to it in various places new contributors may be looking for information. I like the name, too. Ground Zero (talk) 04:41, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── This is a good idea. Something else to keep in mind, is that most news users don't get any welcome message. If you look at Special:ActiveUsers, you will find a very large of number of editors that have made a few small but net positive contributions to Wikivoyage over the past 30 days who however, have never been welcomed in a standard way let alone guided or mentored. It becomes very difficult to find them once their most recent edit was more than 30 days ago. I sometimes go on a welcoming spree and add a personal touch to each message at the end (usually thanking them improving the coverage of a particular part of the world) but I could never complete the list as such. I found it took a long time to welcome someone properly. You have to go through all of their contributions and make sure their edits are positive or at least in good faith and then send a partially tailored message as a minimum. You can also find touting or vandalism that has flown under the radar. Gizza (roam) 23:12, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I like the mentor idea and the rules that TT has created, and I don't see anything wrong with them. We seem to have pretty widespread agreement over this, so I'd like to see it go ahead. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 23:21, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm happy to mentor people too, if you don't mind that I'm not an admin, and I have no desire to be an admin. The dog2 (talk) 04:04, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

A new welcome template mentioning the Arrivals lounge[edit]

So I've created a new template in my userspace (if I've done it wrong, feel free to correct it) with a slight change to it mentions the Arrivals lounge. This is what I intend for it to print:

Hello, user! Welcome to Wikivoyage.
To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the arrivals lounge. If you are familiar with Wikipedia, take a look over some of the differences here.

Compared to the current:

Hello, user! Welcome to Wikivoyage.
To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. If you are familiar with Wikipedia, take a look over some of the differences here.

The difference is subtle: just a different link near the end, leading to the Arrivals lounge instead of the Pub. Is everyone okay with this? If so, could they edit the template so this becomes the standard? Thanks. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 01:52, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

I just noticed that Ground Zero made a welcome template mentioning the arrivals lounge as well. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 02:01, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
Of course newbies are welcome to post in the pub, but I think it makes more sense to direct them to the Arrivals lounge where their questions with be handled with more care because it is clear that they are newbies. I think our approach is that each senior editor uses their own welcome message, instead of their being a standard one, so that it is more personal. I would also encourage editors to mention the Arrivals lounge when welcoming new users. Ground Zero (talk) 02:15, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
Yes, good idea.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:30, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

A way to avoid the dumb mapmasks[edit]

Mapmasks to define the boundaries of district articles have one major disadvantage: They are no longer associative with the district overview map. If someone changes the district overview map of Brussels for example, the mapmasks in the respective district maps will not update.

I guess there is a rather simple solution to this problem - at least in theory. Instead of creating dumb mapmasks in the district article why not access the district geometry from the overview GeoJSON in Commons? So in the district article one had to enter:


to access the 3rd shape of the file, which would be our notorious Brussels International District. Calling it by the name of the district may also be possible.

This might not be too hard to implement in Kartographer and would help to keep the district maps up-to-date. I wish I could practically support, but don't know enough about Kartographer.--Renek78 (talk) 14:28, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Just made a couple quick edits so the code above comes out right, Renek78. If when I did this I did something wrong, please correct. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:34, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks! Have to keep this nowiki tag in mind.--Renek78 (talk) 18:21, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
Also, I added another } to what you typed, I'm assuming that's what the code was supposed to say. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:51, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
An alternative is to create the district maps in Commons and then aggregate them on the city page like is done with mapshapes from OSM. One of the problems with either method is it doesn't seem like you can alter a Commons map properties from a template in WV so something coloured red in the Commons map will be red at both the city and the district level. To get around that, I've been adapting some code created by our friends at Russian Wikivoyage. A test is at Central Oregon Coast and Oregon Coast -- it's just one map on Commons, but it shows as a mapmask on the bottom-level region (Central Oregon Coast) and a coloured shape on the parent region (Oregon Coast). I haven't drafted documentation for it yet and the parameters should probably be aligned with {{mapshape}}, but it seems to work for features that are just one polygon (I haven't tested it on anything else). -Shaundd (talk) 05:51, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Difficulty with Desktop but not Mobile[edit]

I can access Wikivoyage from my mobile, but not from my desktop. The page just won't pull up today. Anyone else having technical difficulties like this? Americannomad1776 (talk) 16:18, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Americannomad1776, what's your web browser and desktop OS? WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:15, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

My web browsers are Google Chrome version 68.0.3440.106 and Internet Explorer 11. Windows version is Windows 7 Professional. Here's the other piece. All other Wikimedia Foundation projects are working just fine. It's just Wikivoyage.Americannomad1776 (talk) 15:21, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Would you mind trying this link from your desktop? If that works, then the problem is a script or gadget in your account (which we can probably sort out on wiki). If it doesn't, then I think we'll need to summon help. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:08, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

I want to invite English Wikivoyager to make a Youtube movie about Wikivoyage.[edit]

I want to let anyone know about Wikivoyage, to help anyone easily edit and create articles through teaching videos, and hope to promote Wikivoyage through Youtube.

The URL of Wikivoyage Channel is here, I have upload about Chinese teaching videos(Chinese friends can to upload related videos to here), and I want to invite English friends to upload related videos to here. For other language versions, please let me know if I need to, I will provide the URL.

I also want to invite some people to be Channel administrators. Through Youtube, I hope to let more people know about Wikivoyage, and hope that more people can like us! thanks.--Yuriy kosygin (talk) 19:42, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

How exciting! I have seen your YouTube channel, and wondered if it was still active.
This is a brilliant idea and proposal, and I hope some talented videomaker can come forwards.
I'd like to volunteer to be a channel administrator, if you don't mind having someone with no experience of running a YouTube channel. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:37, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
  • @ThunderingTyphoons!: I am very happy with your willingness to do so, if you can, please leave your Youtube User name or email address to me, I will provide administrator privileges.--Yuriy kosygin (talk) 13:31, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
@Yuriy kosygin: I think it's a great idea to add more English-language videos about Wikivoyage on YouTube. Thank you for plunging forward. I will follow your channel closely. Gizza (roam) 22:44, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
@DaGizza: Thank your respond! but my English is very poor, I have been looking forward to having Wikivoyager help and management, let us Wikivoyage let everyone know!--Yuriy kosygin (talk) 12:49, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
I hope everyone can also provide promotional videos.(s.g. Wiki Loves Monuments)--Yuriy kosygin (talk) 16:05, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
I has upload about promotional film of Wikivoyage, If everyone have good video of wikivoyage, please provide to Youtube channel! thanks!--Yuriy kosygin (talk) 17:58, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Why are we playing Whack-a-Mole?[edit]

At long last, can someone please adjust Special:AbuseFilter/25? There's absolutely no reason we need to keep tearing our hair out trying to deal with BTCentralPlus manually. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:02, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

Seconded. We're not the nightly entertainment for some loser in Chorley with nothing better to do. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:42, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
As if we needed any more reasons to adjust our BTCentralPlus abuse filter, here is another one. I'd do it myself if I knew how. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:46, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
Maybe someone over at Wikimedia Meta's Small Wiki Monitoring Team know how to adjust filters? --ϒpsilon (talk) 19:23, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
surely some admins here know the format of the filter? :-o (talk) 05:47, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
What do we want the filter to do? Do we want it to disallow edits, instead of merely tagging them? Nurg (talk) 06:19, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
Or is it to add additional IPs to the filter? Nurg (talk) 06:41, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Plus codes[edit]

Google Maps seems to now provide something called plus codes. Should we include plus codes in listings? If so, in what part of the listing should we include them? It seems like they could become very useful, particularly for businesses without street addresses. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:32, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

Would it be possible to create a new listing field for plus codes? ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:44, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
What does this give us that we don't already have with (lat, long) co-ordinates? K7L (talk) 22:46, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
According to, a plus code is more like an address than geo coordinates, and it means that residents "often can’t communicate where they live, disconnecting them from government services, transportation, loans, job opportunities and even disaster relief." That page also states that "[f]or individuals and families, plus codes can be used like a street address when the street has no name or doesn’t even exist. They give every place in the world an address, so everyone can easily say where they live, where their business is located, or where a parcel should be sent." Seems pretty useful to me, particularly in less developed countries where streets do not have names. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:07, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
Have any venues (hotels etc) published these codes on their website? Are there any GPS systems that let you use these codes as a destination? My inclination is to wait until there is significant usage by others. AlasdairW (talk) 23:27, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
It seems to be pretty recent, so it hasn't gotten to far yet. There is more information at the Google Blog. It apparently is a few years old but has only been included on Google Maps (near the address) very recently. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 00:30, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
It just seems like these plus codes would work well with WV. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 00:44, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
My understanding is that Google's plus codes are basically their own glorified replacement for latitude and longitude coordinates. As far as I can tell after reading their website for a few minutes, the only benefit of plus codes over regular coordinates is that they're a bit shorter and easier to memorize. Accordingly, I don't think we should add them to articles—let's stick to WGS coordinates, the international standard. If a user needs a plus code for some reason, they can always copy the coordinates from our article and paste them into Google Maps, which will convert them to plus codes. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:58, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Yes, I see. Then they're not really necessary. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:21, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

If it's Google's own proprietary system, there also may be copyright issues. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:54, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
not proprietary. (talk) 05:44, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
The use of non-standard schemes like is nothing new, but these never seem to catch on; (lat, long) is more useful as it plays nice with GPS and with dynamic maps. K7L (talk) 13:36, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
Looking at the standard definition for plus codes, they appear to be a way of "coding" a lat/long. So the UK Parliament would be 9C3XGV2G+48, instead of 51.500312,-0.124187. One big catch is the use of abbreviated codes (GV2G+48 Westminster, London, UK), which miss out the "area code" and is a bit like writing a lat/long with only the values after the decimal point. If these codes catch on then we could look at providing a utility to convert between them at lat/longs. AlasdairW (talk) 22:52, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
I think it is weird that they talk about standard coordinates being hard to grasp and missing on many maps, and then try to replace them with a base-20 system, which probably is printed on no map. Even the length difference is quite marginal, 10 characters instead of 12 digits (plus N/S/E/W and decimal points, but those are easy to remember separately). So yes, I suppose it is just a strategy to increase use of their maps and tools. --LPfi (talk) 09:05, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm done[edit]

If stating a fact, a fact that was just one word long, is a bannable offense, then I'm shutting my account down. Goodbye, adios, au reviour, dasvedanyah, and whatever you people say in Iraqistan. @SelfieCity, Ikan Kekek: Libertarianmoderate (talk) 22:36, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

If you don't understand why what you did is a problem, perhaps it's for the best that you're leaving. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:39, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
@Libertarianmoderate: As I stated on your talk page, I don't want to see you go, especially over this (which weren't probably not going to ban you over). You can still contribute to the site despite writing what you wrote, but at the same time I think for now you need to focus on improving articles, not creating many stub articles at once. Also you should probably avoid writing about what could be considered controversial subjects (e.g. political ones), since those are where the problems have emerged. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:55, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
Selfie City, regarding this message and the one you left on LM's talk page: making a demonstrably false, politically and racially charged, and patently offensive statement like "Obama is a Muslim", after numerous previous warnings about similar offensive edits, absolutely is a bannable offense, and I highly doubt that a user block for LM in the event of another repeat offense, as I suggested here, would have met with much resistance. I continue to admire your enthusiasm, but you're still new enough here that it's advisable for you to defer to the judgment of longer-standing members of the community on certain questions, such as where to draw the line between good-faith rookie mistakes and bona fide bad conduct. Please also see w:Wikipedia:Don't be high-maintenance#Frequent threats to leave. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:56, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I did not see the most recent two comments on that talk page until just now. Sorry, since I can see I missed something important there. If you want to go ahead and make a decision on this, go ahead, since you have much more experience than me at that sort of thing. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 00:08, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
Also, yes, I can see how LM could use a threat to leave in this situation so he could get some sort of compromise, and it's pretty obvious that no-one here wants to compromise (honestly, I don't, either). So in the end of the day, if LM wants to leave, absolutely they can leave. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 00:10, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
I just learned that that Wikipedia page has a link to meatball:GoodBye. I love that page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:25, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
I agree rather strongly with what Andre says above. "If you don't understand why what you did is a problem, perhaps it's for the best that you're leaving."
I'm less certain about his comments to SelfieCity, "but you're still new ...", but I can see his point. Pashley (talk) 00:21, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
LM has made it clear that he cannot distinguish between reality and what s/he wants to believe, which I think is important skill for someone contributing to an online travel guide. It's unfortunate that s/he has turned out to be this way, but not unfortunate that s/he is choosing to leave. I think we learned an important lesson with ArcticCynda that people like that cannot leave their prejudices at the door. Ground Zero (talk) 00:47, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
I also agree with Andre's statement. Hopefully it won't drag on for as long as it did with ArticCynda. Gizza (roam) 01:35, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
And LM is back. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:55, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Editing of sitewide CSS/JS is only possible for interface administrators from now[edit]

(Please help translate to your language)

Hi all,

as announced previously, permission handling for CSS/JS pages has changed: only members of the interface-admin (Interface administrators) group, and a few highly privileged global groups such as stewards, can edit CSS/JS pages that they do not own (that is, any page ending with .css or .js that is either in the MediaWiki: namespace or is another user's user subpage). This is done to improve the security of readers and editors of Wikimedia projects. More information is available at Creation of separate user group for editing sitewide CSS/JS. If you encounter any unexpected problems, please contact me or file a bug.

Tgr (talk) 12:39, 27 August 2018 (UTC) (via global message delivery)

User:Zayn Hussein[edit]

Hi, I'm Zayn Hussein. I just created this account, but I'm already an expert in wiki formatting. I can't wait to start working with you guys. Zayn Hussein (talk) 12:46, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Given this user's pattern of contributions - edits focusing on the U.S. Midwest (and especially Illinois) as well as Third World countries that are unsafe for travellers, creation of nonsense redirects such as Illiana, etc., not to mention the timing of the account's emergence and the Muslim-sounding username - it's pretty clearly a doppelganger of User:Libertarianmoderate. I've blocked it on that basis per Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits#User ban (see comments about doppelgangers on the second-to-last bullet point). Libertarianmoderate himself has of course not been blocked and is still welcome to contribute under his original name, but under all but a few very specific circumstances, our policy is one account per user.-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 13:40, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
Yes, and also he’s adding a ping to the end of one of his comments, which LM used to do. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:58, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
LM could still do that if he stopped acting like a child, came back to his ordinary account, and adapted his behaviour to suit this website and take on board people's concerns. He should either stay and change, or go definitively. Nobody is in the mood to play games with you, Alex. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:16, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
You would have thought that with this new username, at least they would have identified themselves as Arabic speaker rather than Spanish speaker! OhanaUnitedTalk page 03:01, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Number of bytes[edit]

You know, I would be interested over time if the number of bytes of Wikivoyage increases or decreases. Is there any way to find that out? The question is whether we're adding content as fast as we're removing listings for places that are closed, etc. Just would be interesting. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:57, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

There is a Wikivoyage:Database dump with a few old versions going back to April:
2018-04-03 19:41:56 done All pages, current versions only. enwikivoyage-20180401-pages-meta-current.xml.bz2 117.6 MB
2018-08-22 02:23:26 done All pages, current versions only. enwikivoyage-20180820-pages-meta-current.xml.bz2 120.8 MB
The net trend does seem to be "up", but that doesn't tell us whether that is because of new articles, expansion of existing pages or both. K7L (talk) 02:26, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Keep in mind that quality is more important than quantity as well, weeding out clutter can improve articles although it decreases the database size. 11:56, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Messaging admins for COTM, DOTM, etc.[edit]

Since the beginning of August, there has been very little activity on the COTM page. Even the collaborations themselves do not seem to get the interest of many contributors. The DOTM is working at the moment, but going through the talk page reveals that this has not always been the case.

Well, a few days before the next COTM begins in September, I brought up some potential issues with it, and I even went to WV:Requests for comment and posted my concern there. But still, no response, and September (along with the new collaboration) is getting closer every second. I’ve also put up multiple COTM nominations lately, and there have been no responses.

I think a lot of users, including some admins, do not follow or even know these pages. To keep the COTM and DOTM functions operating, what if we had a system — like a bot, perhaps — that messaged admins when a new COTM was nominated or when the each monthly collaboration begins, so they can help out. The same could be done with the DOTM page and the DOTM banners voting page.

Another option would be to have a template that could be added to the active admins’ talk pages, reminding them about these things.

Any thoughts?

--Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 20:41, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

I am all for promoting more activity in COTM. It had actually been going well until this month. Maybe people no so interested in the subject. What I do not understand is what this has to do with admins? Admin is about cleaning and patrolling activities, it is not about committing to particular contribution activities.--Traveler100 (talk) 21:10, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Because it's generally the admins who are the most active on the website. But of course, there's also a lot of autopatrollers who are also involved (like Hobbitschuster, K7L, who are just as active as admins) who could get these notifications as well. Maybe a better way to put this would be to message out to active users rather than admins. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 21:30, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
I've generally been active on the COTM since its revival in August 2017. This month is one of the few where I haven't really contributed, mainly because this month's collaboration doesn't interest me as much. I've started working on next month's collaboration though, which is improving our outlines districts. Gizza (roam) 22:07, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Well, I don't think there was enough to do in Atlanta; it's disappointing that the related nomination I put up on the vfd page did not get any responses. I think there may be more interest in the outline districts, since there is a lot to do there. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 22:42, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
For what it's worth, there's still a lot more to do in the Atlanta collaboration if anyone wants to get involved in its last few days. I just glanced through a few districts and saw a bunch of listings with no coordinates, missing basic information, in the wrong section, etc. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:19, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
I have both CotM and DotM pages on my watchlist but only get involved when something that interests me turns up. I suspect this is fairly typical for regular users & think it is as things should be. Pashley (talk) 23:57, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

MassMessage extension[edit]

This is a good function for the MassMessage extension. A bot could be written to send out a mass message to all admins or all active users with [x] edits in the past 30 days every 10th of the month, for instance (with the possibility to opt out, of course). —Justin (koavf)TCM 22:06, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Thanks, Koavf, that's a good idea. The only thing is, who would write the code for the bot? --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 22:08, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Or maybe we could have some kind of questionnaire, asking people what project interests they have, and then the MassMessage will only remind them about things taking place that are related to their project interests. Or perhaps we could start an expedition where we get users interested. Those in the expedition would show their interest in the COTM. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 22:15, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
This latest proposal (only getting messages about stuff we indicate an interest in) is okay, but I don't think I'd personally use it. I follow everything I'm interested in on my watchlist. Furthermore, I would oppose any attempt to regularly mass-message anybody about random stuff they may not care about. That would irritate the hell out of me, and I doubt I'd be alone. Remember, WV is supposed to be fun, and coercing people into doing something they don't want to do is not fun. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:31, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Oppose. I do not like this idea at all. You can already reach many people with a post in the pub and/or at Wikivoyage:Requests for comment, and you can tag individuals in posts or post links on their talk pages, so I do not think it is necessary. You don't need the questionnaire either; just trust people to put topics they are interested in on their watchlists.
Who would be trusted to use this appropriately? I think I'd trust most of the admins, but I'm not entirely sure about all of them. Among the other users, there are some I certainly would not want to be able to do this. Pashley (talk) 22:38, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Can you think of any other way to increase interest in the COTMs? It feels like a very small number of people actually work on them, but I would like to see that change if possible. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 22:45, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Send the contents of your mass message to here (the pub) instead. Personally, I find COTM pointless, because the whole of Wikivoyage is a collaboration. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:02, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Well, I think COTM finds the weak points of Wikivoyage and tries to make them stronger. I think COTM draws attention to the weak points so they can be fixed. Anyway, posting to the pub is definitely a good idea. The only thing I'd worry about is there being a lot of mass messages, which might get in the way of the pub's actual content. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 23:28, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
I don't disagree with you about the COTM; I was just offering a reason why it doesn't interest me no matter what sort of messages are sent :-) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:34, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I see; it's actually useful to know that there people not very interested in certain projects, versus those who just did not know about them. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 23:40, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm not seeing the point and would certainly opt out of any mass message. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:43, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
I also oppose mass messaging. Most active editors here are aware of COTM and the ones that are interested participate in it. Since the 2017 revival, there has been a core group of around 4 editors (Traveler100, Mx. Granger, MartinJacobson and me) that have worked on most COTMs and there have been other editors that have contributed to COTM discussion or helped out occasionally on the tasks if it's a topic of interest for them, like Pashley, Hobbitchuster, Matroc, WOSlinker and others. This month's COTM is a bit less active than usual but the project is far from dead. Even when it was dormant from mid-2013 to mid-2017, it wasn't a big deal as long as editors were still improving Wikivoyage overall. Gizza (roam) 00:07, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Just to add, the most successful COTMs tend to be those that clear maintenance categories. The months where we try to bring an article to guide or star status have seen mixed results. But of course maintenance doesn't appeal to everyone. And in a project reliant exclusively on volunteers, while we can make people aware of the COTM, we can't force anyone to do anything. Gizza (roam) 00:15, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
I like ThunderingTyphoons! idea of posting a note here. That can be done manually by whoever sets up the new collaboration each time. It doesn't have to be fancy. A quick note that says "Hey, there's new COTM. The subject is X" should be sufficient. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:42, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
I like that idea too. —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:07, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I think that’s a good idea, and is a good compromise between showing nothing at all and doing a mass message function. I also think the COTM and DOTM candidates, etc., should be brought up more in pub discussions. That will make them more relevant and inform people about them. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 01:19, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Would it be useful to add a line or two at the top of the Wikivoyage:Requests for comment reminding readers that DotM nominees and the CotM always need comment or contributions? I'm inclined to think not very because people who read the RFC page already read CotM and DotM, but it could do no harm. Pashley (talk) 12:38, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Most-known-sights expedition(?)[edit]

Surprisingly often I find that we are missing iconic sights of even prominent countries. Would it make sense to start an expedition where we would find (e.g. via some "competitor pages" or google) top 30-50 sights per country and check that we have them as well? This could probably increase our google rank a bit too...

Second step, after we put those listings in the destination cities (if they exist), it'd be great to extend regions to look like Paris/Brussels - so that each one of them has some overview of the main sights (at least some) with links to lower levels. Because otherwise we usually only have cities listed in most/many regions, which doesn't help the visitor==traveler to decide where the good stuff is. Of course, this is complicated, since we have some 2k regions, so we'd have to limit the scope somehow here.

Would there be some interest to do such thing? I could probably start doing some ground-work (like prepare some raw POI lists). (talk) 15:26, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

I’m not crazy on the idea, but I am not against it either. Perhaps we could make it a Cotm. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 17:57, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
I've quickly thrown together a list of the fifty 'biggest attractions' of the Netherlands based on some data found online, and I must say that I'm amazed to find some of the listed attractions on the list and some of them not while I did expect them. The Vondelpark in Amsterdam, for example, I would have expected on the list. Many attractions are listed, one of greater relevance to the traveller than the other. I'm not sure what the right way of getting a completer coverage of major attractions is, to be fair, and I'm pretty sure that doing what I've done now, grabbing the fifty or so biggest attractions and checking if we cover them, is not effective and not getting anywhere. Perhaps grabbing a list of museums and other sorts of attractions in X through Wikidata, tossing that in a list of sorts and working through that manually is what we're looking for? In any case, getting a coverage of the major attractions in X, whether that be a city, country or the entire world, requires a lot of effort and a Collaboration may be the way, as SelfieCity pitched above, and I'd hereby like to say that I support such an effort.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 20:10, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
I agree with, the layout of the Paris and Brussels articles is a great asset to the traveler. For the most-known sights, I slightly favour the Brussels approach for See and Do sections (following the 7±2 rule to enforce its summary role) in a more traditional travel guide style illustrated with pictures rather than a listing of bullets (approach of the Parisian See section). 11:53, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Gallery for main sights[edit]

Possible third step of the above and a topic for discussion. In spirit of "A picture is worth a thousand words" - we could introduce some kind of "gallery", where each Country (and/or top-level regions) would have a gallery of these sights. We have the pictures already, but randomly scattered around the articles, and often incomplete. I'm not sure where we would put such stuff - maybe there could be some tiny "banner"/popup icon in the "See" section? Just an idea... This could maybe also be auto-generated from wikidata of the listings.

If/before we do this, it'd probably be best to first prepare some sketch-ups and agree on the new look... I also know we have the rules Wikivoyage:Image_policy#Minimal_use_of_images, but maybe that rule was written 15 years ago on WT and nowadays even the remove areas have 3G usually... (talk) 15:26, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

The <gallery> approach is, in my opinion not an appealing one. I'm all for adding more images in articles, but I'm not a fan of having more pictures stacked above each other than that the page is long. Perhaps we should look at deVoy for this, who have implemented a decent-looking gallery to show more images in the same place (see Amsterdam, for example). It might be an idea to develop the associated template further to add things such as an auto scroll to drag the reader's attention to the multiple images hidden in plain sight. The gallery as it stands isn't very appealing in my opinion, but resembles a regular thumbnail, which is fine by me.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 20:10, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
It is also possible to create the gallery at Commons ("Sights is London" or somesuch), cf Commons:Winter driving. The format is free, i.e. Commons admins are unlikely to interfere. --LPfi (talk) 14:50, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Handling of tour companies[edit]

Hi there. Could you please give some input on the handling of tour companies and especially in the case of Mitzpe Ramon. Cheers Ceever (talk) 15:31, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Hi. Have you taken a look at WV:Tour? The basic thrust of that page is that tours are allowed as long as they add value to a visit, or don't merely replicate what somebody could do by themselves. The rules of don't tout apply too, of course. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:34, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Wikivoyage meetup?[edit]

Wikipedians get together in the face-to-face world all the time, and if anything, as travel guide writers, the concept lends itself even more to our community than it does to theirs. Whether a Wikivoyage meetup would be feasible is something I've been thinking a lot about lately.

It strikes me that Buffalo has a strong argument in favor of being the most logical place for one. Not only are our U.S. and Canadian editor bases heavily concentrated within easy striking distance, in the Northeast (Ikan Kekek, Powers, ButteBag, ChubbyWimbus) and Windsor-Quebec corridor (Ground Zero, K7L, Pashley) respectively, but by the standards of North American destinations, Buffalo is fairly easily accessible for our European contingent as well: JFK is one of the main international gateways to the U.S., with service from pretty much everywhere, and onward travel from there to Buffalo is a snap (JetBlue flights between JFK and BUF depart several times daily, take about an hour, and are usually available for less than US$100). Furthermore, Niagara Falls is just a thirty-minute drive or one-hour trip on public transit, and Buffalo itself has some of the best Wikivoyage coverage of any city in the world.

Other than location, I don't have any specifics in mind just yet; I mostly wanted to gauge what the level of interest in a meetup, hypothetically, would be. Is this worth looking further into?

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:46, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

I notice the Buffalo bias here... No, this is actually a good idea. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 20:51, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Sorry for the accidental revert. Of course, whenever I do a fingerslip like that, my Wi-Fi slows to a crawl and I can't restore the correct version quickly. I like the idea of a meet-up, but I'll be honest that I don't know if I'd travel for it. If I were going to Buffalo for other reasons (e.g. to take advantage of its most excellent Wikivoyage guides), I'd consider it. Ground Zero (talk) 20:58, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
I think a meetup is a great idea, though I highly doubt I'll have the time to travel to Buffalo for it. But if any future meetups are scheduled in a place I happen to be at, I'm happy to join. The dog2 (talk) 21:26, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
The basic idea is good, though we could just go to Wikimania & meet people from a wider range of projects. Perhaps recruit some folk to contribute here too?
Buffalo seems a good suggestion in some ways, but in winter I think most of us would prefer somewhere warmer. Also, anywhere in the US or Europe tends to be expensive. Maybe one of the places listed at Retiring_abroad#Destinations, or a Caribbean destination? Pashley (talk) 22:06, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Pashley - "Anywhere in the US or Europe tends to be expensive" - yes, but let's look at this in the aggregate. Long-distance travel itself is expensive. Our active editing community consists of about 40-45% North Americans and about 40-45% Europeans, with the remainder widely scattered among the other four continents with no particular one predominating. So it makes the most sense to have a meetup in either a centralized location within North America or a centralized location within Europe. Going either of those routes would be a pain in the ass for roughly half of us but comparatively convenient for the other half, whereas having a meetup in a place like the Caribbean where none of us actually live would be a pain in the ass for all of us. As this meetup was my idea, and the logistical end of things would likely be my responsibility were such a thing to ever actually happen, it wouldn't make sense for me to plan a European meetup (one that I most likely would not be able to attend anyway), so that's where my advocacy for Buffalo comes in. Also, while winter in Buffalo is not anyone's idea of a good time, our weather is at least serviceable for eight months out of the year, and downright beautiful for six. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:52, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Good idea, but wrong continent. --Alexander (talk) 22:18, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Like The dog2, if I happen to be close to a place where the meetup is happening at a point in time, I'd be happy to join. Also in case anyone is not aware, you can add your hometown or current location to Wikivoyage:Wikivoyagers by location. It gives a good sense of where everyone is around the world. Unfortunately it doesn't distinguish active and inactive editors but it is still interesting. Gizza (roam) 22:28, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Great idea; wish I could go, but there's an ocean in the way, and I have no money. Would like to see photos, though. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:43, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
I wouldn't be able to make a special trip to Buffalo, as I'm just too busy with a career, a business, and dealing with my father's estate as an artist. However, if any of you are coming through New York City, give me a holler and we can try to schedule a get-together. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:31, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
I think it's a fun idea, but I actually live very far from the Northeast now, so it would be quite expensive for me. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 12:59, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
If you want to do this fairly soon, then the easiest option might be to piggyback on m:WikiConference North America/2018, which is 18–21 October 2018 in Columbus, Ohio this time. It's unfortunately too late to apply for their $500 travel scholarships (something to keep in mind for the future). WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:25, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
I like the idea, but I don't think I will be making a trip across the pond for it. I have been to a few local Wikimedia meetups - meetings in a physical pub or coffee shop for a couple of hours - they are not just for WP. If the first meetup is successful, I would suggest trying to hold same day US and European meetings, with a video link for part of it. AlasdairW (talk) 18:17, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
We do have quite a number of editors based in the Asia-Pacific region too. Is there a way to be more inclusive of them? The dog2 (talk) 18:42, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
It will always be more challenging for us to organise a meetup than Wikipedia because of our smaller community. Back in its heyday, it would very easy to organise a meetup in any native English-speaking city with a population of a million or above because there would be at least 10-20 active editors from that city. Even other big cities which weren't native English speaking would get many attendees. While Wikivoyage is growing, it will be a very long time before we can match that if ever. Gizza (roam) 12:36, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
Woww... This is good idea! but Buffalo is too far for Asian Wikivoyager, I think we can use webcam meetup! --Yuriy kosygin (talk) 18:47, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure my math is the same as yours, but transatlantic airfare while substantial is usually dwarfed by the cost of simply being in the US for even a week. Unless you stay in the cheapest of hostel dorms, the same is true for Europe. Costa Rica would be a place that is relatively easy to reach from both north America and Europe, that unlike its northern neighbor hasn't seen political violence on a major scale since the late 1940s and while not dirt cheap, it is quite affordable... At any rate, I like the idea in principle and it can always be accompanied by on the ground research... Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:33, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

This is a cool idea, thanks AndreCarrotflower! Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be able to make it out that way any time soon. --ButteBag (talk) 21:50, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
Flying across the Atlantic just for a meetup is not only expensive and time consuming, but also ecologically irresponsible. I like the idea of a meetup though, so I'd rather suggest splitting it into a European summit in a (relatively) cheap city close to a Flixbus hub, and a North American meeting. 11:41, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
Like many others I think that it is a great idea in theory, but find it difficult to participate in practice. However, changing the Buffalo bias for a Swedish one, is anyone considering coming to Stockholm for m:Wikimania 2019? It is almost a year to go, so it might be a bit too early to start planning. Nevertheless, it has the advantages that we can get a lot of help with logistics (for example there will be plenty of travel scholarships) and that there will be events which are interesting to us as a Wikimedia community. By the way, have we been represented at previous Wikimanias? MartinJacobson (talk) 17:11, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Wikivoyage banners in Wiki Loves Monuments 2018[edit]

We are glad to announce the annual Wikivoyage banner competition as part of Wiki Loves Monuments 2018! Take photos of cultural heritage monuments, crop them to the Wikivoyage format (7:1, as all of you should know...), and upload the banners to Wikimedia Commons. Best contributions will find their place in the travel guides and receive small awards from our ru-WV community.

I would be grateful if people with access to social networks of Wikivoyage will share this information.
@Andyrom75, Lkcl it, Adehertogh, Yuriy_kosygin, DerFussi
Others: just talk to your neighbors, and participate yourself!

Have fun with cultural heritage! --Alexander (talk) 14:37, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Ok, we'll take care soon about it. --Andyrom75 (talk) 08:48, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
@Atsirlin:@Andyrom75: I've just scheduled the post on fb and twitter. I've also tried to translate the page in Italian, with no result ... Is this edit correct? (if not please revert it). Btw you can find my translation here, can you add it? --Lkcl it (Talk) 19:40, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
Lkcl_it, thank you! I have no idea how this bloody translation system works. It looks like we can't do anything without translation administrators. I have asked some of them. Let's see what happens. --Alexander (talk) 20:46, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
Lkcl_it, I managed it somehow. Please, take a look.
Two small requests from my side:
1. The upload wizard has the field 'Source image (Commons file that your banner was cropped from)'. Could you suggest me the Italian translation for it?
2. Could you reach the guys organizing WLM in Italy and ask them that they add information about the banner competition to their website. Unfortunately, I don't have time to contact every country (there are nearly 50 countries in WLM this year!), and I am sure they will be happier if you ask them in Italian.
Thanks! --Alexander (talk) 21:37, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
Great! Thanks.
1. A translation could be "Immagine originale (File Commons da cui il banner è stato ricavato)".
2. I'll write the email shortly and I'll let you know. --Lkcl it (Talk) 09:29, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Yuriy kosygin, thanks! I may not be able to help you with the video at the moment, because Wiki Loves Monuments takes really a lot of time. --Alexander (talk) 16:27, 3 September 2018 (UTC)


I had a look at some of his editing history, and unfortunately, he does appear to have have some jingoistic tendencies when it comes to articles regarding Malaysia. To his credit, he did stop his obsession with removing all mentions of Singapore when I brought it up on his talk page and AndreCarrotflower warned him about it. However, he recently made this edit, and this edit where the edit summary suggests that he really doesn't get the point that we are not a tourism promotion agency for either Singapore or Malaysia, and that our purpose is to be a guide that provides information that serves travellers best. I am really reluctant to propose a ban because he is a valuable contributor and has indeed done a lot of good work in our articles regarding Malaysia, but that said, we also can't allow our articles to be unduly influenced by any particular user's nationalistic, let alone jingoistic views. What does everyone suggest we do? The dog2 (talk) 18:40, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek:I was wondering if you could reach out to him. He seems to be ignoring me, and I suspect it is because I am a Singaporean, and he thinks I'm trying to make Malaysia look bad. The dog2 (talk) 23:16, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
We've been down this road with Chongkian umpteen times before. When The dog2 mentions that I "warned him about it", he's referring to the most recent message on Chongkian's talk page which specifically mentioned that "this behavior is rapidly leading [him] towards user ban territory". I don't know how much clearer of a message we can send without actually blocking him, so I took the liberty of instituting a three-day one per Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits#Escalating user blocks. Hopefully, he will at long last understand that we're not playing around about this. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:27, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

September Collaboration of the month[edit]

This months cotm is to improve district articles. Get as many of the currently 159 Outline district articles to usable status. --Traveler100 (talk) 13:56, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

I've been through a couple of the Atlanta outline districts (last month's collaboration) and already promoted 2 to usable status. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 14:15, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
This cotm will also involve further discussion on whether some of these districts deserve to exist as standalone articles, and if not, merging and consolidating them. Gizza (roam) 14:18, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
Yes. You know what else I've also noticed? There are some articles about city parks that were labeled as districts. I've changed these to outlinepark status but they still need to be moved out of their related city's regionlist. Also, could an admin move Perth/Rottnest Island to Rottnest Island over the redirect? --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 14:41, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
Yes Done --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:08, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
Some city parks articles, like Manhattan/Central Park, actually are best as districts. At least that one is. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:00, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
Indeed, park articles are more for rural parks rather than city districts that are called "Something Park". ϒpsilon (talk) 16:28, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
I think these were OK; for example, one was a cemetery, one was an archaeological site, one was a city park in Bogota, and one was an island several miles from the city. You can check my contributions if you want, though. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 16:43, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
I worked on one of the three of the Guangzhou's districts (Guangzhou/Liwan). OhanaUnitedTalk page 19:48, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
Well, outline districts are down to 152. That's seven less than at the beginning of this COTM. For the record, you can type in as for detailed information about article status. I often use the graph to see how our article progress is going. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 19:58, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
Could we get one of those "Articles needing a little work to get to usable-boxes" (like this one) for this COTM? MartinJacobson (talk) 20:49, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
Added one, numbers will need updating manually. --Traveler100 (talk) 23:12, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
Great! Thank you Traveler100! Is it possible to also add a "needs only"-row to the table? It is a great way of finding low-hanging fruit. I would do it myself if I knew how to... MartinJacobson (talk) 00:05, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
Good point. There are a few that look like they are complete until you check the listing links, some are dead links. --Traveler100 (talk) 01:29, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Oklahoma City#Radical proposal on districts. The current districting system omits most of that city. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:55, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
^^This proposal is headed into the "speak now, or forever hold your peace" range. If you have a view, then please share it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:19, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

It's going well[edit]

The amount of discussion above shows that posting the COTM to the Pub has worked. Let's hope this means contributions. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 01:56, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

I deleted pages?[edit]

If you take a look at the deletion log, you will see that I "deleted" some pages to make way for a redirect. (e.g. it says on "00:07, September 2, 2018 SelfieCity (talk | contribs) deleted redirect Western Valley by overwriting".

That's fine except for one thing: I'm not an admin. And only admins can delete pages. Is this some kind of malfunction, or an error message not working or something? Or can anyone delete redirects in the process of making way for another one? --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 03:04, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Is it maybe that I technically deleted the redirect and not the page, but it still shows in the Deletion Log? If so, this is not an issue. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 03:05, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
There is one very small loophole... it's possible for a non-admin to move an article over top of an existing redirect if that redirect has no history and points to the article being moved. This exists so that non-admins can revert page-move vandalism, effectively reversing a move so that the redirection points in the opposite direction. It's rare, I don't think I've ever done it, but the one narrow exception technically does exist. K7L (talk) 04:53, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

POP-UP maps for markers/listings[edit]

  • Noticed that the pop-up map is not showing when clicking on the listing/marker icon on a page -- Can someone check as it may be a server or other issue - Thanks -- Matroc (talk) 03:35, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
    • Broken for me in three web browsers on macOS Sierra 10.12.6. I'm pretty sure it was working very recently (possibly within the last 24 hours). WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:00, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
Anybody of the Wikimedia Foundation's programmers changed <maplink> behavior completely. CSS cursor events were set to none, the cursor was changed and the map is substituted by a special page.
You should add to MediaWiki:Common.css‎ the following lines:
.client-js .mw-kartographer-maplink:not(.mw-kartographer-link):not(.ve-ce-focusableNode), .client-js .mw-kartographer-map:not(.mw-kartographer-link):not(.mw-kartographer-interactive) {
	pointer-events: auto;
	cursor: pointer;
I think after this you will not see a pop-up map any longer but a special page like this. I think the programmers have no idea why we use the markers in the articles and that they are all shown on the maps.
At the German version we changed the display of maps and wrote several months ago our own client-side map scripts. --RolandUnger (talk) 06:22, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
This has made me a little bit angry. So my original thought that this was a new feature improvement for the worse was not in error. When will the usage of group and show parameters disappear as well? Limiting the versatile and practical usage of Kartographer as WV has been using it; almost seems to make it worthwhile to rethink using this extension at all. -- Matroc (talk) 15:37, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
The phabricator task was raised to high priority. Now French wikipedians reported the same failure. I do not know the intention to change to code to the worse. I think the new programmers are not familiar with the project as a whole. --RolandUnger (talk) 16:56, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
спасибо за эта -- I agree with you - Matroc (talk) 17:02, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
Appears to be back and working - thank you -- Matroc (talk) 04:08, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
To clarify the issue, we recently had the need to remove event logging from some projects due to resource redirection and improvement of page performance, during development we accidentally removed a piece of code that created the issue and doesn't have a test case, the code passed through our CI jobs and got into production. We are sorry about that, once we were able to take a look into the problem we tried to deploy a fix ASAP. Thank you for reaching us and help us to identify the problem quickly. MSantos (WMF) (talk) 17:41, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Locations on Wikidata[edit]

I cannot get this map to give info on the marked places. Looking for the wikidata number for the location as the article Platanias is currently pointing to the wrong one. --Traveler100 (talk) 10:35, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Link in Wikidata for Platanias is for Platanias Municiplaity located in Crete. I didn't find another Platanias to match. Not sure if you need to remove the WV link from that Wikidata record and create a new Wikidata entry - apologize if that is not helpful. -- Matroc (talk) 16:01, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Table in Severe weather[edit]

In the Severe weather article I redesigned the table and it looks pretty good. However, some of the horizontal gaps between the numbers are rather small. What’s the best way to increase the gaps? Thanks.

Also, you can go to Talk:Severe weather to compare the old and new table designs and you can view sections of the new table design at Cold weather and Hot weather. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 20:25, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

I added some padding for you.
But the contents seem wrong. Since when is cooler-than-room-temperature "warm"? And 75 °F isn't "hot"; that's barely warm enough for me to start wearing short sleeves. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:42, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
I don't think I ever changed the temperatures, but I think you're right that they are a little low. What I'd say is that on the original chart the higher temperatures for each temperature type were in bold, so it might have made more sense. But I'd agree that they should be adjusted a few degrees. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 03:19, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
The contents were discussed earlier (on the metric and imperial page?), but I think it is hard to reach any consensus. For me, 18–21°C is room temperature, which is warm, and I start wearing short sleaves at 60°F. And I wouldn't call 20–40°F cold (unless it is supposed to be summer). For Severe weather the -10–30°C/15–85°F range is rather irrelevant, while that is the range the table concentrates on. I do not know how to present the temperatures in a way meaningful for those who haven't experienced them. Other than perhaps the freezing point and 35°C/95°F, which is mortal for humans in 100% relative humidity (the body core will get warm enough for proteins to coagulate). --LPfi (talk) 13:34, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
If it lasts long enough, and if you don't have access to cooling options such as fans, swimming pools, cold drinks, or air conditioning. Also, AFAICT that combination has never happened in recorded history. The equivalent dewpoint (a slightly higher temperature and slightly lower humidity, but the same net effect) has briefly happened; it set a world record in 2003. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:36, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
I agree with WhatamIdoing here. I wouldn’t ever wear short sleeves at 60 Fahrenheit and I’d definitely call 20 to 40 Fahrenheit cold. I think we should move all the numbers on the table to the left, and add one at the right end, so it makes more sense. I’ve never been out in 20 F weather, but I’d probably like 95 more. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 18:52, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
That you've never been in 20 F weather might explain something. That is a warm winter day (the recommended limit for having babies take naps outdoors is below 0 F). And if I waited for 75 F until changing to short sleeves there would not be many days to use them (except the summer we experienced this year). So the characterization is highly subjective, but fans won't help you at 95/100 (air conditioning lowering the temperature helps of course, as does access to cool drinks/showers/pools). Anyway, the characterization might serve most of our readers. --LPfi (talk) 14:50, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
Does your home area perhaps not see those temperatures very often? I lived (for 20 years) in several places where 95/100 °F was a perfectly typical summertime temperature – you just planned for at least 30 days of that each year – and usually without either air conditioning or a swimming pool. I can tell you that a fan still helps on such days, just like going outside on a hot-but-windy day is more tolerable than going outside on an equally hot-and-still day. As a general rule, a fan provides the equivalent of 5 °F cooling, no matter what the temperature is. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:45, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
I am not talking out of experience, but a fan works in two ways: replacing air you made warmer with cooler air (works in sub 35°C) and replacing air moist from your sweat with drier air (works in less than 100 % relative humidity). At 35/100 there is no way a fan could keep your skin cooler than 35, which is too much. The 100 % humidity is of course not common in most places (here also the 35°C is a once-in-recorded-history event). --LPfi (talk) 18:08, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
No, in Finland temperatures don't go above +30°C (86°F) every summer. But I think many, if not most, WV contributors do come from parts of the world where such temperatures are common, but instead temperatures below freezing (during daytime at least?) are rare.
And, in addition to what has been mentioned above, your level of activity also very much determines how you perceive the temperature. --ϒpsilon (talk) 19:19, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I don't think our "normal" temperature standards shouldn't be set by Finland's climate. A better choice for average climate would be somewhere around 40—45 degrees north and close to sea level — maybe somewhere like southern France would be a good standard for what's hot and what's cold. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 19:23, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Of course we should not set our standard according to Finland. But I am not sure southern France is much better, or southern India, or central Zaire. Ideally our temperature descriptions would stand on their own, without one having to be acquainted to whatever climate we use as "standard". Having that standard implicit makes matters worse: how can one know that it is southern France and not Paris or the Canary Islands that is our normal? --LPfi (talk) 21:49, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
We can argue about this forever. Maybe we should just keep the tables as they are, since otherwise there will be a huge debate over something that doesn't really matter. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 22:04, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Infobox design[edit]

I invented this design for an infobox.

Tasmanian devils

This carnivorous marsupial is the size of a small dog and found only in Tasmania. The largest carnivorous marsupial in the world, it is characterised by its stocky and muscular build, black fur, extremely loud and disturbing screech, and ferocity when feeding. Despite its appearance, the devil is capable of surprising speed and endurance... (read more)
This carnivorous marsupial is the size of a small dog and found only in Tasmania. The largest carnivorous marsupial in the world, it is characterised by its stocky and muscular build, black fur, extremely loud and disturbing screech, and ferocity when feeding. Despite its appearance, the devil is capable of surprising speed and endurance... (read more)

How do others like it compared to the current design of infoboxes? I'm not sure how to decrease the gap between the lines, and if someone can make the change please do. I also think the text might look good with the text aligned to the left, but I couldn't do it.

Of course, in most infoboxes there would not be a read more link. I just added that and the ... to this one so I didn't include an essay in this demonstration. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 23:41, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

  • One method - put your text in a div statement - can change font size or align left, right or center -- Matroc (talk) 00:56, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
    • I had to leave before I finished -- If you are going to use a table then the text information in your infobox example could actually be just another table row (without a div statement) with appropriate font size etc. -- Matroc (talk) 02:06, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. I've taken the text I assume you added and made it the main text. How does it look now? --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 00:59, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
Also, did anyone notice that I changed to an autumn signature? --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 00:59, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
Here's the current design for the same infobox, if you want to compare right here. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 01:03, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Tasmanian devils

This carnivorous marsupial is the size of a small dog and found only in Tasmania. The largest carnivorous marsupial in the world, it is characterised by its stocky and muscular build, black fur, extremely loud and disturbing screech, and ferocity when feeding. Despite its appearance, the devil is capable of surprising speed and endurance... (read more)

In response to Matroc, I tried that but couldn't get it to work. You see, I'm no expert at code, and I'm one of those who tends to experiment with colors, etc. and sees what works and what doesn't. But thanks for the help, though. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 02:16, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

  • I added example -- see: Help tables as that may assist you - Best wishes -- Matroc (talk) 02:38, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
Great, thanks. Just for those above, the red box is not the design example — my proposal is the gray/grey square. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 03:22, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
Personally I like the existing format better. —Granger (talk · contribs) 10:48, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
I agree with Granger, and prefer the current format. 11:25, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

How to note a museums temporary closure...[edit]

Was trying to find it in the Rio article, to leave a note.. What's it's Portugese name, and what sort of wording should be used? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:11, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

It was removed from Rio de Janeiro/Zona Norte... -- 10:48, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, Andree. Was just about to say the same. Shakespeare, the Portuguese name is Museu Nacional, and if you want to note a temporary closure in future, you can just add it to the listing in a prominent place, either on top of the opening hours or in the 'content' field. Or if you want to be really fancy, you can hide the whole listing with a set of these bad boys <!-- -->, and note the closure somewhere prominent in the 'See' section. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:51, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
I'd hesitate to downplay destruction on this scale as a "temporary closure". Wikivoyage:When to use dates#Permanent closure or cessation of service says "our goal is to give only current information to the traveller, including old information only when it is useful to avoid being misled by information commonly available elsewhere" and "the general rule is, once an establishment has closed the listing should be removed" with a few, limited exceptions. K7L (talk) 12:44, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
Quite right. But it will become apparent only with time how permanent the closure is likely to be. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:49, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
I added an infobox to Rio_de_Janeiro/Centro#Museums. ϒpsilon (talk) 12:57, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
If anything opens in its place, it won't be the original (which was destroyed) but a new museum with a similar name or location – and it would be too soon to list that as no construction has started. I'm not sure if we had a guideline on "coming soon" listings, but they're of limited use unless and until the voyager can actually go there. Again, something on this scale may trigger an exception as the history of the palace, which existed for a couple of hundred years with the grounds becoming the zoological garden, along with the history of the museum and its destruction might fit in "Understand" or as part of the listing for the (I presume, still functional) zoo. Also, should this infobox be in Centro or Norte? K7L (talk) 13:00, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
@K7L: WV should only list the current situation, to reflect the attractions travelers can actually visit if they'd travel there today. Listings of closed attractions or speculations on future developments are needlessly confusing, not helpful to the traveler, and probably belong on Wikipedia instead. 13:31, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
In most cases a destroyed attraction or business would just have been deleted, but as this apparently was a world-class museum and a major cultural and historical attraction in Rio, I think an infobox could be warranted.
Our district division of Rio de Janeiro puts the park where the palace stood in the Centro (not in Norte, where it was listed), and therefore the infobox should be there too. ϒpsilon (talk) 13:32, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Star nominations are back![edit]

Hello, all. In case you are unaware, there have been three new nominations for star articles in the last couple of months on a page that had for a long time been dormant, but not many opinions offered. Your opinion is valued, needed and requested. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:26, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Read-only mode for up to an hour on 12 September and 10 October[edit]

13:33, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Category:Cycling in Denmark and Category:Cycling in the United Kingdom[edit]

I cannot get these categories to work. Am I doing something wrong? --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 13:50, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Why do you want to create these categories, how many sub-articles are you planning on writing about cycling in the UK? And even so, wait until they are created, add the PartOfTopic and use the blue icon at bottom of page created when no category exists. --Traveler100 (talk) 13:31, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
I’ve finished, actually. There’s only one subarticle for the UK, Scotland, and only one subarticle for Denmark. So maybe those categories aren’t necessary? I don’t know a lot about categories yet, but thanks for your help so far. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 14:21, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
I think the general notion is that you want a category to contain more than a few articles, but not too many – somewhere between 10 and 1,000, to give some very round numbers.
There has been very little research done on categories. It is my belief (which could be wrong, of course) that most categories are nearly useless to readers. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:25, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
On Wikivoyage categories are basically a maintenance tool. Tracking articles with missing information or in the case of isPartOf or PartOfTopic to place articles in a hierarchy of categories based on the bread crumbs. This is useful for checking articles are listed in bottom level regions and for running update bots though articles as well as provide statistics by region. On Wikipedia contributors can add articles directly to categories, here on Wikivoyage article categories are controlled through templates. --Traveler100 (talk) 09:23, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
Nonetheless, if a new category is created and items which the {{IsPartOf}} template should be placing in the new category aren't there, it may be necessary to edit each of the articles, then save them (without actually changing anything) just to get them to populate into the category. That looks to be what's happening here; I haven't looked at the template code to see what it does with a category that doesn't exist yet. K7L (talk) 12:28, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
That is correct, if the category is created after an article is added to the category then the article needs to be resaved to see it in the category. If an isPartOf or PartofTopic is created with a category that does not exist it is added to Wikivoyage:Maintenance panel categories, also at the bottom of the page there is a small blue hierarchy icon, which when you click goes into create category page. --Traveler100 (talk) 12:56, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Difficulty accessing Wikivoyage website in China[edit]

I am currently unable to access the Wikivoyage website on my home computer except when connected to a VPN. Does anyone else in China have this issue? Interestingly, the problem seems to be very localised, as I can still access the site on the mobile network or when connected to the WiFi at a restaurant or other public place.

Unfortunately, VPN is only half the solution because Wikimedia has a policy of blocking users from editing content while connected to an open proxy. Hence, I usually (but not always) encounter the following error when I try to do some editing:

You do not have permission to edit this page, for the following reason:

Your IP address is in a range which has been blocked on all wikis.

The block was made by X. The reason given is Open proxy.

Wikimedia's 'no open proxies' policy is explained here:

As stated in the article "This policy is known to cause difficulty for some editors, who must use open proxies to circumvent censorship where they live; a well-known example is the government of the People's Republic of China, which sporadically attempts to prevent the people in China from reading or editing Wikipedia."

The article also states that it's possible to get an IP block exemption and I am hoping that one of the administrators reading this might be able to give me one. A local exemption covering only English Wikivoyage would be sufficient for my purposes.

STW932 (talk) 14:28, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm currently able to access Wikivoyage from mainland China with no VPN. I'm able to read and edit with no problem. If you're able to access at restaurants, then I think the problem must be with your home computer or home WiFi network, not with the Great Firewall.
However, I have occasionally (two or three times in the past three months) had trouble accessing Wikivoyage without a VPN, and I have a global IP block exemption to deal with that problem and to let me edit other Wikimedia wikis without interference from the Chinese firewall. I think there should be no problem with giving you a local IP block exemption. Any admin reading this should be able to do so at Special:UserRights/STW932. —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:42, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
Yes Done -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:09, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
Thanks a lot! STW932 (talk) 15:24, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

A team at U of Toronto have a tool Psiphon: Bypass Internet Censorship which, last I heard (a few years ago) worked well for people in China. It lets a friend outside the country run a proxy for you on his or her machine; typically this will not be on either the Chinese government's or WMF's list of proxy addresses, so it will not be blocked. Works best if you have a friend with a server that runs 24/7. Pashley (talk) 13:19, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

See also w:Psiphon and the project website. Pashley (talk) 13:25, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Adding maintenance category for duplicate banners[edit]

Would anyone be opposed to adding a category like this one? I saw a couple of articles with locally-defined banners that were exactly the same as the ones in Wikidata, meaning double the work is needed to change them. The category can have a standard disclaimer at the top like the Russian WV has, which I can translate if necessary, but basically says, "If the local banner is worse than the Wikidata one, simply delete the parameter, but if it's better, either begin the process for changing the Wikidata banner or leave it alone." Either way, there are potentially many pages with this kind of banner problem.

I'm not 100% sure how to do this, but if it's just adding the appropriate if statement to the template code and creating the page, I can do it if need be. ARR8 (talk) 14:55, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

I suppose that is our default. That way others can use the same banner automagically, while a change at Wikidata won't affect us. On the other hand, if the banners differ – or is different to one used on any WV version – then checking and possibly changing it in some place might be worthwhile. --LPfi (talk) 15:04, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
I don't think that duplicate banners is a problem. Different languages divide countries up into different sized chunks. We may have a huge city with 10 banners for the the city and its districts. If another language has not split the city into districts, I see no problem if they pick a different one for the city (possibly one which we use on a district). Different languages also appear to have different preferences for panorama v detailed views for banners. There is only a real need to change an existing Wikidata banner if the image is deleted or has been incorrectly applied to the wrong location. AlasdairW (talk) 20:44, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
Makes sense to me. ARR8 (talk) 03:11, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
@LPfi, AlasdairW:, do either of you have any thoughts on creating the category? It doesn't necessitate any action taken, but it would be easier to see the scope of the problem. ARR8 (talk) 03:11, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
There are instances of banners being different on different voyage wikis as well. India being but one example. I don't believe banners should be restricted to that found only in Wikidata. Replacing one in Wikidata affects all those that "autorestrictomagically" refer to them. Use of a locally defined banner can eliminate the prospect of unwanted replacement in a particular wiki be they duplicate or not. Having a banner in Wikidata is naught but a convenience unless it is now a prerequisite that all wikis use the one banner. If wikivoyage banner in Wikidata is an array; perhaps, adding an alternative or two might be useful. Adding a banner to Wikidata if one does not exist makes sense as well as replacing a banner if it doesn't belong. There is no single authority. -- Matroc (talk) 03:47, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
I was thinking the opposite, that we could delete the local definition of a banner if it is the same as the one in Wikidata, anyway. I wouldn't want to change them in Wikidata if multiple languages have the same article, or remove any local definitions if a specific WV has found an image that better illustrates their article. In fact, I would be opposed to any unilateral changes to the Wikidata banner for a location. What I do think is that the majority of the articles here which manually specify a banner will probably never differ from Wikidata, and probably aren't too attached to a specific image, rather only using the best available, in which case removing the local definition can save some maintenance. I wouldn't want to batch remove all local banners, either, because I'm sure there are some articles which override the Wikidata banner for a reason. ARR8 (talk) 04:11, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
There is a tradeoff, and I think the consensus here is that the chances of a better banner found and making its way to Wikidata without us noticing is less than the frustration of a good banner at WD being exchanged for a less suitable (according to the taste of whoever cares). If we have a banner, it can be assumed to be good enough, while there is no guarantee that the new banner at WD isn't problematic in some way. The new WD banner can still be evaluated by anybody working with the article. The consensus could change, of course, but probably not without some time passing or very good arguments being made. --LPfi (talk) 16:26, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
Unfortunately data can be changed on Wikidata without anybody noticing. There is an option to "Show Wikidata edits in your watchlist" but I have found this to be no help, as it notifies me if anything changes in the related Wikidata item, when I only want to know if something which impacts the article changes. After a few days of trying this option, I turned it off. However I do want to know if somebody changes the banner of a watched page. In particular, I want to know if the banner has been changed to a picture of a hotel or other business.
A recent bot edit on Wikidata changed the UK emergency phone number (999) by incorrectly adding a digit. It took 3 months for anybody to notice, despite this being used on several country pages.
It would be useful if a bot could put a message on the article's talk page when a new banner is added to Wikidata, but I would not want any automatic changes. AlasdairW (talk) 20:55, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
Calling User:Lydia Pintscher (WMDE): Could your project to limit 'noise' in the watchlist be adapted to Wikivoyage's needs? We'd want banners and whatever is used in the article (e.g., latitude/longitude). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:46, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
User:WhatamIdoing: Thanks for the ping! The system should already work from our side. There might be two remaining potentially bigger issues: 1) Local templates sometimes load the whole item instead of specific parts of it. These need to be changed in order to get fewer edits from Wikidata to show up in the watchlist here. 2) If you get the page banner via an extension and not Lua then it might not be tracked correctly by us. If this is the case and people here would like this changed then it'd be great if someone could open a ticket for it. --Lydia Pintscher (WMDE) (talk) 20:37, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
@LPfi: I understand. There is a tradeoff, and the status quo works fine. I'm happy to leave the issue be. However, I'd still like to create the category, if only for completeness' sake. Would you be opposed? @AlasdairW: ARR8 (talk) 01:35, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
I suppose it'd do no harm. I am not going to figure out how to create it though; I haven't created that kind of categories before. --LPfi (talk) 07:17, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
I don't object to creating the category, but I haven't a clue how to do it. AlasdairW (talk) 10:37, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
Thanks all for the discussion. ARR8 (talk) 14:45, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
I've added this change to the {{pagebanner/sandbox}}, and it seems to work fine. Would an administrator consider adding it in? I'm not sure if this is the right place to ping admins; if it's not, I'd appreciate it if someone would point the way. ARR8 (talk) 16:08, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
This will create too many false warnings. It only checks of a banner page name is present, will show as different from Wikidata even if same as Wikidata pagebanner. The check needs to be more precise. --Traveler100 (talk) 16:35, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
I have updated the sandbox version to only place articles in this category if they are different. Need to test a little more but appears to work. --Traveler100 (talk) 16:50, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
I cannot support the idea of removing the banner name from an article when it is the same as on Wikidata. Wikidata is not very discoverable for many users, not just new ones. Having on the article page makes it clearing what is happening and easier for contributors to edit. If changes the article will be added to the category and others can comment on if it is an improvement on the Wikidata version. --Traveler100 (talk) 16:54, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
@Traveler100: Yes, this resembles the other concerns mentioned above. At this point, I'm forced to agree. Perhaps in the future, when Wikidata becomes a little more accessible and integrated with wiki projects, this can be reconsidered. Either way, I think there's no harm in adding the category. ARR8 (talk) 16:59, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
@Traveler100: Yes, that was intentional. The name of the category is a little misleading, but I wrote about it in the description, and it matches the way the category is used on the Russian and Ukrainian WVs. Of course, if the category is more useful showing only banners that differ, then it makes sense to keep it this way, but I'd originally intended it to show pages that had banners defined in both places, even if they were identical. Perhaps there's room for both categories? ARR8 (talk) 16:57, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
The ones needing attention are those that have the banner defined only in one of the places. If on Wikidata, it means there is a banner, which could probably be used and should be added explicitly. If on Wikivoyage, it should probably be helpful to add it to Wikidata. I think the one you requested is more for curiosity, it mostly means the banner is defined according to our practice. --LPfi (talk) 17:31, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
You're probably right. ARR8 (talk) 21:23, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

What the hell?[edit]

Why am I blocked? AndreCarrotflower blocked me without even nominating me for a ban! I have done nothing wrong! @SelfieCity:: praised my Ada, Oklahoma edits! Who the hell is LibMod, what did he do that you now suspect me of, what the heck is a doppelganger, and what does any of this have to do with me?! If you're going to ban me, at least answer me! AmericanRide2 (talk) 00:44, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

As you well know, since you and him are the same person (I'm writing this mainly for the benefit of the other editors who may be following these events), User:Libertarianmoderate is a former editor who was banned for making bigoted statements and who has resurfaced several times under different usernames to cause further trouble.
Like you, LibMod:
  • has a habit of creating stub articles for unimportant small towns in the American Midwest, especially Chicago suburbs such as Beecher
  • has a habit of creating garbage redirects like International Date Line and Prime Meridian
  • has a habit of including city, state and zip code in the address section of listings, like so, in violation of our manual of style
  • uses Template:Listing for all listings, rather than differentiating by "See", "Do", "Buy", "Eat", "Drink", or "Sleep" (see link in the above bullet point)
  • uses Template:Ping frequently, and tends to do so in the middle or at the end of his comments rather than at the beginning
  • after being banned, began making his doppelgangers write in affected dialects in an attempt to throw admins off the track (compare "Wazzup dudes? I'm American Ride!" on User:American Ride to "now why did y'all block me? I ain't done nuttin wrong!" in an email to me by an account that later admitted to being a LibMod doppelganger)
No, there's no smoking gun, but the nature of doppelganger detection is such that there never is. But the volume of circumstantial evidence I laid out above makes it extremely difficult if not impossible to draw any other conclusion.
In conclusion, LibMod, I would advise you to stop wasting your efforts. Here at Wikivoyage we have lots of experience with vandals and problem editors. We can spot a doppelganger a mile away, even when the vandal tries to cover his tracks, which believe me, you're a lot less good at than you think you are. You're never going to fool us, so your best bet is to cut your losses and go vandalize some other wiki.
-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:01, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
I have to say, the use of Template:Ping is a dead giveaway. New users probably wouldn't know how to use that template. Thanks for figuring this one out, and sorry if any of my previous comments to the user caused any problems. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 02:11, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Also, I think if we still had any doubts as to whether or not LM was a problematic user or not (which was pretty clear already), this latest incident removes any doubt. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 02:19, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
No problem at all, SelfieCity. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:20, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, @AndreCarrotflower: --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 02:21, 9 September 2018 (UTC) ;)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Thanks for pinging me on en.wp. I knew you had a handle on it. If there's a serious doubt, we can get a CheckUser but this is classic "walks like a duck, talks like a duck". —Justin (koavf)TCM 02:38, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Ban was correct thing to do. No doubt about the MO of the edits. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:20, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
The ban is justified. I understand the desire to defend and explain such a ban, but listing all of his "give-aways" will make it easier for him to avoid detection. Ground Zero (talk) 06:42, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
If he returns. If he does, he's just being foolish. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 21:24, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
As I said, we at Wikivoyage can generally identify doppelgangers even of vandals who are good at covering their tracks. LibMod would have to make some pretty major improvements to his strategy before I'd start worrying about him slipping through the cracks. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:28, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Yep. He hasn't covered up his tracks so far. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 21:33, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
One wonders whether he even cares if he's detected. It seems like his object is to annoy us, rather than to return to editing per se. If he slips through the radar undetected, he's not annoying anyone. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:35, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
I don't know what he's trying to do, really. But I think we ought to watch the User Creation Log and follow when new editors start adding quite a lot of content with decent knowledge of how to use the editor mode (although not perfect, as the examples above show), particularly in the Middle East or the American Midwest. We're not having to deal with Einstein, though, so I don't think we need to examine every new user too much. As long as we follow possible LM doppelgangers that emerge fairly closely, we should be able to figure out who's LM and who isn't. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 22:32, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Revisiting the issue of temporary semi-protection for Main Page features[edit]

Between LibMod, the Fuerdai vandal, and BTCentralPlus, we've been seeing a huge uptick in vandalism lately. The last time we broached the subject of instituting temporary semi-protection for DotMs, OtBPs, and FTTs during the time they spend on the Main Page, as Wikipedia does with its featured articles, the consensus was that vandalism wasn't enough of a problem to warrant it. But that was five years ago, and since then traffic has grown by orders of magnitude yet our community of active admins has grown only slightly, if at all. I think it's now a very realistic possibility that we might see vandalism on a Main Page feature that's left unreverted for long periods of time due to the lack of any admins online at any given time. What does everyone think? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:35, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

(It also perhaps bears mentioning that none of the editors who were so vehemently opposed to this idea in 2013 are more than marginally active on Wikivoyage as of 2018.) -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:41, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I think it depends on the page a little, but overall I think you're right. This is a page we could lock, since it gets a lot of "I take over the pub" vandalism, but for genuinely new users that would be problematic (unless we directed them to the Arrivals lounge instead). I'm not sure how much Featured article-type vandalism we've been getting lately, but I think those should be locked too, since they shouldn't need to be edited during their month's feature anyway. So I would support, especially considering how few edits there have been lately at times (like 3 on some hours). While our Alexa rank continues to rise, Alexa ranks don't tell us everything. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 22:45, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Instituting any kind of protection on the Pub would be very problematic because, as "the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful", it's specifically intended as a resource for new users. As for featured articles, we haven't seen much actual vandalism on those as yet, but I can only imagine what happens when, let's say, Fuerdai realizes we have some Chinese city on the Main Page as DotM or OtBP. I say let's stop the problem before it starts. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:51, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
I see. I think I'd still support the page protect measure, although there may be some other pages that could be protected as well. Definitely pages like China should be protected, since the vandal seems to be obsessed with editing those pages (or North Korea). --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 22:55, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I've been dealing with a particularly bad flareup of Fuerdai vandalism over the past few hours, with multiple sockpuppets tag-teaming China and Great Wall of China one after the other. I restricted both of those to autoconfirmed only, but because China in particular is a very high-profile article that attracts a lot of good-faith edits from bona fide newbies, I was uncomfortable protecting it for longer than 2 weeks. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:58, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
When I looked at the Recent Changes log, all of those vandals reverting each other was quite confusing. China is, yes, a high-profile page that gets a lot of vandalism. It's the highest-population country in the world, with plenty of vandals along with plenty of helpful users. My guess is that Fuerdai is one or multiple editors who are pro-North Korea and see America and anything connected to it (like Wikimedia) as the enemy. It's unfortunate that these pages have to be protected, but I fear it is the only answer: even if we get a lot more contributors, we will probably get a lot more vandals too. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 23:45, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
I'd support semi-protection for the Big 3. Probably not for the articles posted in Discover nor the current featured event (the current event needs to be updated frequently which outweighs the potential vandalism that could be inflicted on it). Gizza (roam) 23:50, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Agreed. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 00:07, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm a new user, so I'm not sure what my vote is worth, but I'd Support Support this, and I'm kind of surprised this isn't the case already. It was my understanding that the articles featured are more or less "complete." ARR8 (talk) 00:10, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
It would be useful to have some idea of what the tradeoff is here. How many useful IP edits do featured articles typically get while they're on the main page? —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:11, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict) @ARR8: I think you're right, and thanks for your input! However, one of the problems with featuring articles and then protecting them is this: let's say we feature city X as the DOTM and a restaurant is listed in city X article. But then the restaurant closes, and a non-admin or even an IP knows tries to remove the listing for the restaurant, but they can't because it is locked. Then a traveler, who has never edited WV, reads the article on city X and sees the restaurant listing. They think, "I'd like to go visit that restaurant!" but they find it's closed and they've wasted their journey because the article told them something inaccurate. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 00:16, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
A non-admin might be able to edit a semi-protected article; it's just new or anon-IP users who would be unable to do so. I recall editing (and {{warningbox}}ing) Oregon Trail during its time as featured travel topic to indicate wildfires had closed a road which follows the Oregon side of the Columbia River; I presume I would still have been able to make that edit despite this proposal? K7L (talk) 01:39, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
Yes. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:07, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
It depends whether it is locked for administrators only or auto confirmed users only. Probably you'd lock it for auto confirmed users only. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 02:37, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
That's implicit in the mention of semi protection. By definition, in MediaWiki a "semi-protected" article is accessible to autoconfirmed users; a "fully protected" article is read-only to everyone except admins. K7L (talk) 02:42, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
I see, thanks for the information. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 02:44, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

I agree with protecting articles like China that are being vandalized, but I think that protecting featured articles just because they are featured is a bad idea. A new visitor who sees their home town featured, checks out the article, and finds errors they can't fix won't stay around Wikivoyage too long. If a featured article has been vandalized in the recent past, it makes sense to protect it when it is featured. Ground Zero (talk) 06:12, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

I've gathered some data to help us make the decision. I looked through the histories of this year's dotm, otbp, and ftt for May, June, and July (9 articles in total) and counted the number of harmful and helpful edits from IPs and new editors during the time the article was being featured. (If the same user/IP made several edits around the same time, such as repeated vandalism on the same day or several edits to add a new listing, I counted it as one edit.) I found 7 harmful edits, 2 helpful edits ([1] [2]), and one that seemed neutral.
So the proposal would stop more harmful edits than helpful edits. But harmful edits are easy to revert, whereas if we miss out on a helpful edit there's no way to get it back or even find out that we missed out on it. Keeping the articles unprotected is also possibly helpful for recruiting new editors ("Oh look! I really can add something to this travel guide myself!"). So I think I agree with Ground Zero, but I don't feel strongly about it. Either way, it looks like a fairly small number of edits that we're talking about—on average, about one edit per featured article based on the numbers I gave above. —Granger (talk · contribs) 06:27, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
GZ made a good point there, but there’s a counter-argument. Let’s create a scenario where we have Person X, a new user (just was auto comfirmed, but no edits yet) who wants to improve the website, and person Y, an IP address vandal who is targeting main page features. Person Y vandalizes the DOTM article, but before WV users can revert, person X visits the page to make a positive contribution. They go to the page only to find text like “This has been vandalized” written over and over again. Person x thinks “this wiki is a waste of time” and leaves. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 13:33, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
There will of course be much more readers than new editors, so it is not only the prospective editor that sees the vandalism. Still, I think, vandalism is usually reverted reasonably quickly, so not that many see it, and if there comes a wave of massive vandalism, it is not too difficult to either watch the pages more intensely or protect them at that point. Even if the vandalism is coming we might earn a year of free editing for visitors, to the cost of having the features in bad shape for an hour or so. We could ask active editors to put the features on their watchlists, to get more eyes, although I suppose many have them already, for different reasons. --LPfi (talk) 16:37, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
I don't think featured articles have been targeted by vandalism considerably much more than articles in general (so I'm not sure if featured articles need to be protected); the pub and the talk page of different users seem to be the favorite targets among vandals as of now.
Nevertheless, I think everyone has noticed that the number of incidents of different kinds of vandalism and vandalism-only-accounts has for some reason exploded as of the last few months. I'm also afraid one of the vandals is "good old" pcv who has been dormant for a couple of years, although their grammar have become better. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:25, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
This Fuerdai guy has been doing it for many months now. I wonder if an IP block is warranted for him/her. And given what he has targeted, the Taiwan, Hong Kong and Japan articles may need to be protected too. The dog2 (talk) 20:14, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

LM vandalism: could it be?[edit]

One other thing: is it possible that some of the vandals we've been having lately were actually LM pretending to be BTCentralPlus or whatever? For example, check out the contributions of User:Vandelsarebothersodontbotherwiththem, particularly the comment to Libmod and the statements "you never know where vandels will come from". LM pretended to be Telstra before (remember SmokinTourist909), so it is possible, although not too likely. There are no giveaways, the comment signatures look like those of the typical "Pub takeover" vandal, but I just have a suspicion. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 01:30, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

No, this is classic BTCentralPlus, and the behavior pattern pre-dates LibMod's userban. Despite the puerile nature of the actual vandalism, his tactics are actually a good deal more sophisticated than LibMod's: he targets specific admins, usually the most recent one to have banned one of his doppelgangers, and from his behavior patterns it can be deduced that he pays attention to Special:RecentChanges and focuses his attacks on articles that are currently being, or have recently been, edited by the targeted admin. This often does include other users' talk pages. Also, the dialect used by the vandal in edit summaries and other brief snippets of text does suggest that he speaks UK English, which would be consistent with BTCentralPlus' location in Lancashire. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:04, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
Also: although I was mistaken in attributing the SmokinTourist909 account to BTCentralPlus, I think that was a coincidence rather than anything that was intentional on LibMod's part. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:11, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
Yep, I think you're right. Just checking. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 02:36, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

visual editor[edit]

The visual editor template placement creates source with a capital letter for the name of the template, thus creating See rather than see. A mismatch of upper and lower case listing can create problems with map icons, only one type being displayed. Anyone know how the output of the editor can be changed? --Traveler100 (talk) 20:09, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

I don't know if this is the case, but is it possible at all to convert the string to lowercase before storing it as a variable, to sidestep the problem? ARR8 (talk) 21:58, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
The behavior as described by Traveler100 is the usual one for all articles at the Mediawiki software. All article names including templates start with an uppercase letter. That's why the visual-editor output is consistent. I do not think that this can be changed. But the uppercase letter cannot be the cause because the templates like {{See}} has the line | type=see which is independent of the writing of the template name. Maybe you should check the function of the Listingeditor and should adapt it if necessary. --RolandUnger (talk) 05:29, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Module testing[edit]

I am currently testing an experimental Module as a tool that checks/tests a lat/long combination (point) and examines a polygon (shape) to see if it (point) lies within that shape or not. The polygon can be a box or polygon (shape) using coordinates that you provide. I am not a programming guru but so far it appears to be somewhat successful. Further work to be done - if you have any ideas/suggestions or are interested let me know. Ciao -- Matroc (talk) 09:02, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
Do you think this could be also done with mapshapes from wikidata? I can imagine how such thing could be programmed, but I wouldn't want to do it :-D In the end, it'd be great if we could have some category "articles with listings outside maphapes", esp. if we could add some sanity there (like - "ignore the page, if one of the mapshapes is without boundaries"; the mapshapes added AndreeBot were often empty). -- 19:25, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
The basic goal was to create something an editor could pop into a Sandbox and do some checking and assist in selecting markers (points) for inclusion in a specific map rather than a production type model which I think you are looking for. That would be a totally different and complex story altogether for me to accomplish. This all came about because of a request to see if I could help to identify items out of a few hundred that could be selected for inclusion in an article and its mapframe (an intensive labor effort by hand). I have worked on using a GeoJSON polygon as one would find within a mapframe or maplink which at this time has to be copied and put in as an argument (or one can manually enter coordinates for a simpler shape such as a box etc.) to the module. I am also now checking multiple latitude and longitude combinations (points) against that polygon argument. WV needs more qualified programmers to provide some of solutions we need. My favorite French saying: "Little by little the small bird builds her nest". Testing goes on... Thank you for your input and will keep your ideas in mind. -- Matroc (talk) 08:13, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately there appears to be now way to just get the textual coordinates of a mapshape polygon only from OSM that I know of yet. (Have a few feelers out) As far as testing goes - to look up name,lat,long information from Wikidata, there are for too many POI's for this mini tool project that would probably break processing limits (past and recent testing shows that the limit is about 420) and is the basic reason I have not incorporated that as of yet. For the time being the following page; if interested, has test for Negev Region checking to see if 488 positions can be found within its polygon shape or not. (may change/edit or delete in near future -- I just changed it from testing 6 POIs in Upper Galilee) -- Additionally; I have tested using a temporary Table of mapshapes (polygons) ... -- Matroc (talk) 06:30, 16 September 2018 (UTC) -- To do want to do what you mentioned earlier; it might require outside Python/other processing -- Modified my comment. Cheers! -- Matroc (talk) 07:09, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Random pages[edit]

Can you limit the random page button to a specific topic, like destinations or itineraries? --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 15:41, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

You might have success with Special:RandomInCategory, e.g. Special:RandomInCategory/Itineraries or Special:RandomInCategory/Usable articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:05, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 16:22, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Requesting destinations?[edit]

Hello, I'm new. Could I request some destinations?




others... if u want me to create any new ones let me know. thanks. Jukkohiss (talk) 22:01, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

You might want to look at Wikivoyage:Requested articles. --LPfi (talk) 09:48, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

What can I do here?[edit]

Any help in what I can do on this expedition? I like travel guides of all sorts. I need something to do i'm bored (not of wikivoyage) but i get restless if i dont help in some way. thanks. Jukkohiss (talk) 22:11, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

There’s a cotm project that runs through each month, and this month there’s plenty that can be done there. Also, have you edited on Wikivoyage before under an IP address or some other wiki altogether? --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 22:17, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
As well as looking at the cotm, think about which towns you know well, either were you live or work or have spent a holiday. Look at those pages and add some additional information about things to see, places to eat and hotels to stay at. --Traveler100 (talk) 05:32, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

New entries?[edit]

Birds of North America Birds Parks in North America

etc i got many ideas... --Jukkohiss (talk) 01:34, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Be careful not to mix up the aims of Wikivoyage with those of Wikipedia. Topic articles should concentration on destinations about those topics not facts about the subject. For a new contributor I would recommend sticking to the city articles. --Traveler100 (talk) 05:33, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

17 suggested new alternative banners - please participate in the following discussions and help decide whether some existing banners would be replaced or not[edit]

Over the last years I have created many new alternative Wikivoyage banners (mostly based on existing photos in Wikicommons) to be used, first and foremost, in the articles of the Hebrew Wikivoyage.

I am hoping that the English Wikivoyage community would consider using some of these alternative banners here as well.

Please participate in the following 17 discussions and indicate in each of the discussions which banner you prefer seeing at the top of this article.

ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 09:10, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing these and L'Shana Tova. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:42, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
Thanks ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 13:37, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Melbourne district map[edit]

On Talk:Melbourne is a dynamic district map I have been working on for the city. The outer districts are shown on the map, since they correspond to official government districts (present in OpenStreetMap). However, the inner WV districts do not correspond to official districts - they have custom shapes, as shown on each of the district pages. Is there a way of adding these districts to the dynamic map, short of adding them to OSM as a special category of boundary? (Which OSM might not appreciate) Ar2332 (talk) 20:56, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Check e.g. Madrid. Basically you can create the inner map using geojson-commons map, and use wikidata for the rest....Wikivoyage:How_to_use_dynamic_maps -- 04:57, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

How do you handle this type of edit?[edit]

I imagine this IP editor (with no other edits) lives in the area and deleted this bit of text they didn't like. I get it. Perhaps I could have been more tactful in wording things, but I would argue the sentence in question is more "unflattering" than "irrevalent".

I guess the question is how do you deal with telling folks your honest opinion, even if that opinion happens to be unflattering? And how do you do it w/o edit warring to boot? This one edit isn't a big deal, but asking in a big picture way. Thanks for any advice you have! --ButteBag (talk) 23:40, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

I'd revert it with an edit summary and invite the IP user to discuss the fairness of the point on the talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:09, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
If you wait a week or so, the IP will probably not notice what you do. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:17, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
I agree it is more unflattering than "irrelevant". I try to give travellers reasons to go somewhere, rather than reasons to not go there. If I can't find anything positive to say, I tend to say nothing. So I don't blame the IP editor for deleting it. By the way, I find it a bit surprising that an area with no attractions beyond its parks should warrant six sub-articles. Maybe really there is more to see than commuters stuck in traffic jams - if not, maybe some of the articles should be merged. But I don't know the area myself. Nurg (talk) 09:03, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
Ha, yes, Ikan with the most reasonable approach! Thank you! Nurg I totally agree, but since WV covers the entire world, I feel like we do need to make a few critical comments here and there. And yes, I would also prefer to merge all 6 articles together. However, WV consensus currently prefers having multiple low information articles, not fewer pages with higher information density. I believe it's just me, you, and (maybe?) User:Ground Zero who think this way. Thanks! --ButteBag (talk) 12:33, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
There is precedent for covering more than one town in a single article. I'd suggest for you to make a proposal in the Greater Boston article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:22, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

What mobile apps are there to use wikivoyage on the road?[edit]

Hello everyone,

whenever I'm planning a trip I prepare the potential places I visit as PDF exports from WV. Are there any good offline apps for WikiVoyage I might have missed?

Cheers, Spekulatius2410 (talk)

There's the wikivoyage app. Its one major flaw is that it does not include dynamic maps. Ar2332 (talk) 09:37, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
AFAIR the wikivoyage app wasn't updated too regularly, so the normal kiwix app+downloading wikivoyage data was better... but anyway, see Wikivoyage:Offline_Expedition. -- 07:48, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, that was my experience as well. The data seemed rather outdated. Spekulatius2410 (talk) 08:42, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
A function I sometimes find eating in the app is to make notes for edits to make in the future. And more frequent updates of the underlying data. Last I checked the Costa Rica data was from 2016. Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:52, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
Spekulatius2410, I think OSMand's travel guide functionality is great. --Renek78 (talk) 11:01, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Help with placing a listing in Racine[edit]

1) Would this be a listing or a "blurb" and 2) where would I put it (eat, see, do, buy?)

  • First Fridays, 100 Monument Square. 4PM to 9PM on the first Friday of the month, April to December. Local businesses in the downtown area host an event on the first Friday of the month. The main road through downtown is blocked off and turned into a pedestrian zone. In addition to the shop's sidewalk sales, there is live music in Monument Square and often stores will have a musician or band playing in front of them. You can gain free admission to the downtown's museums. Food trucks and the nearby restaurants have specials or promotions. Visit their website to see the band line-up, specials, and whether any special activities or demonstrations have been scheduled.

Obviously any assistance with wording and such is appreciated as well DethDestroyerOfWords (talk) 14:19, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

It's an event, so wycsi says it should be listed in the Do section. ϒpsilon (talk) 14:41, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
Ah! I missed that. Thank you for your help! DethDestroyerOfWords (talk) 14:48, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
Just a minute, though. Is this maybe like an outdoor market type of thing? I mean, do people go there primarily to shop? If so, it should go in the "Buy" section. Thanks. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 16:06, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
Yep, notice in what part of the article this outdoor market listing can be found. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 16:12, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
If it's mainly a market, yes, then it should be listed in Buy. But if the market part is just a part of the event, then list it in Do. ϒpsilon (talk) 16:18, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
This is what is what is confusing. Some background: the event is sponsored by the businesses(both restaurants and stores) as a way of getting more foot traffic. It's taken a life of it's own and now it has more a festival feel with live music and sometimes activities and free admission to the museums. It's not a festival like a once a year kind of thing (it happens every month) but it's also not necessarily a market. Most people who go do so to eat food and shop while drunk and listening to live music. DethDestroyerOfWords (talk) 18:31, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
Then it sounds like "Do" to me. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 18:33, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
Yup, definitely a Do listing. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:36, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

WV:Requested article expansions page[edit]

I had a thought for a new Wikivoyage page idea. While most of our articles are still not at the ideal star status, a page similar to Wikivoyage:Requested articles would be useful for pointing out particularly poor pages on this website (e.g. outlines or usable articles that should be better) that need improvement and do not match the requirements for a cotm nomination — for example, they need more originally-written content. If the page requested for expansion reached guide status, we could then remove it from the list. Just a thought for a new page; what do others think of this idea? When one of us isn't sure what page to work on, it could provide more ideas. Also, to clarify in relation to the Requested articles debate, I wouldn't propose archiving/slushing old ideas.

Such a page wouldn't be harmful but at the same time help us focus on the poorest of our articles. Perhaps it would be more effective than COTMs. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 21:45, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

The star to all article ratio will always be a rounding error. I would guess most editors work on locations they're already familiar with. If someone is looking for work, try recommending articles like NYC, London, or Paris. Super destinations like these probably capture the majority of traveller interest, so we should strive to make our versions "the best". Good luck! --ButteBag (talk) 12:42, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
My idea is something more along the lines of WV:RA, but for stubby outlines, etc., including travel topics. What do you think? --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 17:02, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
I'd rather see people make such requests here (more people will see it) or on the article's talk page (anyone watching the page will see it), instead of on another page. Extra pages and "structure" means that we could spend more time maintaining the mess than improving articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:51, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
See Wikivoyage:World cities/Large for one list of the most important cities, including some info on which get the most visitors. See its parent article for a longer & less detailed list. Pashley (talk) 17:08, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
  • In response to WhatamIdoing, I see your point. The more of those types of pages we have, the more work is required. This is a good place to bring up such information. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 00:00, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Fake reviews[edit]

A man has got a prison sentence for selling fake TripAdvisor reviews to Italian companies. Here's Trip Advisor's report. A European Parliament report suggests bogus reviews are widespread, up to 16% of total reviews.

I know we have policies like Wikivoyage:Don't tout and a number of people do good work enforcing them. I think they are mostly effective. However, on reading the above links I wonder if we should be doing more. If so, what? Pashley (talk) 16:58, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

This is good news for us, in my opinion. It shows that vandals and other people who want to create problems using the anonymity of the internet do not necessarily get away with their actions in the end.
However, I think Tripadvisor is a more natural target for paid reviews than we are. Tripadvisor's 1 to 5 rating system is more inviting for paid reviews than here, where we provide mostly short, neutral descriptions of the places we cover. As long as we remove anything promotional we should be OK. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 17:12, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
Yes, but this really suggests that it's on balance better to remove touty listings and not detout them or accept detouted versions of them by the original touter. I don't think we want to go that far, though, because there are instances of users who started off by touting but after learning Wikivoyage style and policies, because valuable users. Nevertheless, we should be quite wary. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:31, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
In the Bucks County article I encountered some pretty obvious cases of tout (you know, using first person pronouns, that kind of thing), and I've deleted promotional content pretty liberally. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 22:46, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────This strikes me as about three parts "we already do this" to one part "so what?"

More specifically: obviously we should continue to revert any touting we see, but I think it's a bridge too far to have a policy of outright deleting, rather than simply de-touting, listings added by touts. There is also a certain amount of onus on the reader to know that the question of whether a restaurant's food is good, the view from a hotel room is beautiful, an attraction is worthwhile etc. is inherently subjective, and his or her mileage may vary. For instance, take this restaurant listing that I recently added to Buffalo/Elmwood Village:

Between the dashed-off service, the spartan ambience, and a menu of heavily Americanized Chinese, Japanese, and Thai specialties that's no better than what you'd find at your average takeout joint, pretty much every aspect of the Tokyo Shanghai Bistro experience could be generously described as "mediocre". Every aspect, that is, except one: the coconut mushroom soup on the "Thai Specials" section of the menu. It's not available at any other restaurant in Buffalo (Sun Express downtown serves a soup that's identically named, but the recipe is completely different), but it is one of the best things you will ever taste. The best comparison would be tom kha, but the broth is less creamy and more savory, with different spices.

That information comes 100% from my own firsthand experience; it was not sourced from Yelp, Tripadvisor, or anywhere else. Now say someone reads that, thinks to themselves "gee, that soup sounds good", goes to the restaurant and tries it, and s/he doesn't like it. Would it be reasonable for the reader to then hold us responsible for adding misleading information? Was I "touting" the soup at that restaurant? No and no. There's no accounting for taste, and caveat lector.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:21, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

I guess it depends on the kind of tout. Instances of "our service X is the best in the area" are different than saying "this is the restaurant's best dish". Probably knowing who added the text in the first place will be a useful hint. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 01:54, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
Tend to agree with Andre. It's quite easy to tell when somebody is biased or touting, especially when they have been editing for a long period of time. Tripadvisor is a review-only site. There is very little other travel content added to it by users. Listings and opinions about the listings are just one part of the content added to this site. I would be skeptical of someone only adding positive reviews of a variety of listings but it's rare. Touts usually just promote one company consistently, which is easy to pick up, while other editors write all kinds of travel content and make many types of edits. Gizza (roam) 02:41, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure about that; I prefer to Wikivoyage:Avoid negative reviews altogether. If I needed to list it (e.g., only restaurant in town) and couldn't recommend it in general, then I also wouldn't have written a long list of failings. I'd have written something much shorter, such as "Serves heavily Americanized Chinese, Japanese, and Thai dishes. The excellent coconut mushroom soup, listed in their Thai Specials, is by far the best dish on the menu."
(It sounds like it'll be a great place to go if I'm ever in Buffalo and discover that I need to get my US Recommended Daily Allowance of red food dye. ;-) ) WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:21, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
I'm not certain why, but recently I am seeing lots of stories about online fakery: Yelp reviews Inside a Reddit Sockpuppet Operation. Pashley (talk) 12:18, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Districting George Town (Malaysia)[edit]

We need agreement on whether to treat all of Penang Island and then some as part of a districted huge city of Georgetown, and if so, agree on one or a few more district articles, change some article templates appropriately and create a static map with different colors for the different districts. If you have any opinions, please participate at Talk:George Town (Malaysia)#Huge city? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:10, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

"reopen in"[edit]

I just searched Wikivoyage for the strings "reopen in" and "will open in" and found a bunch of articles with out of date information about places that "will open" a few years ago. I suspect searching for other variations would find more. Just posting this here in case anyone wants to join me in finding and updating these. —Granger (talk · contribs) 07:44, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Good idea. Another variation I saw in an article you may want to consider including - "set to open." ARR8 (talk) 14:03, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
Or "will happen in 2008" or related searches. Typing in year numbers may bring back some interesting results. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 22:12, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Flag template change[edit]

I've modified {{flag}}, adding an optional parameter to automatically or manually place a country's link next to its flag if set (does not affect existing use of the template). This is especially useful for things like lists of countries (e.g. see: Panmunjeom#From_the_South) to make it easier to find a specific country at a glance, instead of searching through a wall of text. The main advantages of doing this through the template, and not manually, are ease of maintenance and that it adds a non-breaking space between the flag and the link.

I am planning on adding it to such instances as the lists above and other places where countries are linked. Is anyone opposed to such additions, or to this change in general? ARR8 (talk) 15:58, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure I fully understand what you're proposing. Are you saying you want to add a flag icon whenever a country name is linked? I think that sounds kind of distracting and weird-looking. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:13, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
No, only in cases where it's useful. Take a look at the linked article; it's pretty hard to tell if your country is listed in the table without reading through it or using the find function of your browser. Flags are immediately recognizable and you can see your own at a glance. I was planning on putting flags into the table, anyway. This just reduces maintenance slightly in cases like this one so that you don't have to type a country name twice.
It seems to me that this is pretty much already what we're doing for lists of embassies and consulates, but those are full-fledged listings which sometimes already link somewhere, and not just names in a list. ARR8 (talk) 00:39, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
I am not sure the flags are helpful. When the countries are in alphabetical order as here (all but two of the mentioned one in the same box) your own is easy to find without the flags, while text interspersed with images is much harder to read than ordinary text. It is off course a trade off, but I think in this case, for me, they distract more than they help. --LPfi (talk) 14:20, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
If the parameter is strictly optional, I don't see anything wrong with it. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:23, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
@LPfi: Sorry, didn't see this. Seems you're talking about Panmunjeom specifically. Personally, I think the changes look better, but I may be a little biased, though I'll note I find myself glancing through the images rather than the words. I wouldn't mind a brief consensus on whether this is preferred for tables like this. If I am alone in my view, I'll remove the flags. ARR8 (talk) 00:27, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
I looked at that example, but I suppose my reasoning holds for similar cases in general. I generally prefer a plain layout, without too much bells and whistles. --LPfi (talk) 15:38, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

restaurants famous buildings etc[edit]

trump tower is not listed i know this is not wp but we should add info on them. or any restaurant listing make it into an article. ideas? Olp631 (talk) 10:30, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean. Which article are we talking about? Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:10, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
Either Presidents of the United States or a New York City district, I would think. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 13:27, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
Presidents of the United States#45. Trump lists the Old Post Office in Washington DC as its one token Trump hotel. The decision to pick one and just one appears to be a conscious decision per Talk:Presidents of the United States#Ritz-Carlton in Moscow. There are also mentions of the Trump hotel chain in individual destinations, such as Chicago and Atlantic City (although, with the latter, Trump has rolled snakes eyes and folded). K7L (talk) 13:47, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
I suppose Trump Tower should be listed in "See" in the Manhattan/Theater District article. It's not that interesting a building, but even before the guy was made president, it was a locally well-known big building. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:35, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Odd Edits[edit]

Hello! I don't follow the edit/troll sagas too closely, but I'm aware of them. Not sure if these are related, but these two IP users are likely the same person. Their edits don't seem very... let's say... high quality? I reverted two edits, but just wanted to post it here in case this is part of some larger pattern. Thanks! --ButteBag (talk) 00:17, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Mobile readers[edit]

Some of you may be interested in this new page: mw:Recommendations for mobile friendly articles WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:37, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately some of the points go against the readability on desktop. E.g. putting infobox after the main text will likely cause the floating infobox (or photo, weatherbox, whatever) to show up after the section where it belongs... :-/ -- 05:13, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
How can I code a page so its format is slightly different on mobile and desktop? --Traveler100 (talk) 08:07, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
One of the main authors is a regular editor here: pinging Jon. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:35, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
We have code that moves the infobox above the lead paragraph on mobile, so provided when you add an infobox you test this on mobile, you should be fine. With regards to "code a page so its format is slightly different on mobile and desktop", ideally you wouldn't want mobile/desktop to have different HTML, but you can certainly target styles at different skins (for which the mobile site is one - mw:Skin:MinervaNeue) mw:Extension:TemplateStyles. What specifically are you trying to fix? Hopefully with that information I can be of more use. Jdlrobson (talk) 15:54, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
Oh, OK, didn't know about such thing... but it only applies to infoboxes, not images or other floating templates, right? I actually didn't see any infobox problems - but if I put e.g. {{climate chart}} after the text, then it is placet at the line where it's added (instead of e.g. floating from the beginning of the previous paragraph). So I guess a similar 'move when mobile' action could be done there too...? Also I'd like if floating templates had "higher priority" than pictures (which typically overflow through many sections), but that's probably not too easy to do w/ CSS only... -- 19:15, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
Questions ware related to Travel topics which is fine as two columns for desktop but looks better with one. Travel topics/sandbox, on mobile. --Traveler100 (talk) 05:10, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
User:Jdlrobson, Template:Infobox here looks a lot more like w:en:Template:Side box than like w:en:Template:Infobox. It's almost never put at the top of the page, either. See Wikivoyage:Information boxes or examples in Aarhus#Architecture, Albania#Money, or Athens#See. Is this particular piece of advice relevant? I'm not sure that the infobox CSS is present, either, so the re-arranging trick probably either doesn't work (and if it does, is it going to make things weird in the middle of the article?). WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:59, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
I think this relates more to the advice around using Table based layouts. TemplateStyles would definitely help here - we could have one column for mobile and two for desktop!! A good start would be to create a template for the wrapper e.g. TopicBoxCollection. Once we have that and it works nicely on desktop, we can use TemplateStyles to format it nicely on mobile. I'd love to help fix this and point to it as an example!

Can we replace

{|align=center style="border: 1px solid #44718a; border-radius: 0.45em; margin-top: -3.5px;" 
| colspan="2" style="background: #eaf3ff;"|

with something like this?:


Jdlrobson (talk) 22:11, 20 September 2018 (UTC)


User draft, that I sort of stopped working on.. Is it yet at the outline stage?

If not, feel free to improve it. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:07, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

Definitely at least outline, if not usable (haven't read it). When are you going to move it to mainspace? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:40, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
I beg your pardon, but hopefully not until it's clear what the scope of the article is. Please refer to my remarks on the article's talk page. We were making progress in User talk:ShakespeareFan00/Government, politics and opposition#Scoping this more tightly, but unless I missed something, I don't see that reflected in the article yet. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:00, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
I think it needs a more radical rethink/redraft. Most of what it has right now is "Legislature" related. In taking another look, it was perhaps a mistake to group the politics and opppostion part into it. Political History is perhaps best dealt with in a different way.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:11, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
Re-title the current draft as Parliaments and Legislatures and have a separate outline on Visiting Government Buildings ?

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:17, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

Parliaments and legislatures is fine as a topic and should include the Great Hall of the People and other legislative buildings in one-party states. I'm not sure I really understand the division you want to make, as I don't believe every country has distinct legislative and executive branches, and of course parliaments are government buildings. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:51, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
Well the split that perhaps should be made is between where Government happens ( i.e Congress, White house etc.) and where govt service provision happens ( Like the FBI HQ, Commerce Department, Census Bureau, IRS etc...). Perhaps we need some better titles? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:50, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
And yes, someone should add various asssemblies from outside the Western World :) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:52, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure a distinction between the Legislative building(s), the residence of the Chief of State (if not royal)/Chief of Government and Executive agencies is meaningful for the purposes of a travel guide. They're all government buildings. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:18, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
I see the article being mainly about parliaments and other places where laws are created. Other opportunities to look at politics can also be included - relevant museums and any political parties that have exhibitions; but not participating in politics - canvassing or conferences etc. Executive agencies belong in other travel topics depending on the agency - tours of the Ministry of Agiculture belong in Agritourism. I don't think that we can usefully say much about visiting executive agencies in general, and in most cases any exhibitions etc should simply be listed in the relevant city. AlasdairW (talk) 21:54, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

I asked about this article's status as I'd got to the limits of of my knowledge. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:03, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Subject interest travel topics...[edit]

Prompted by the scoping concerns in relation to a user draft, I felt it wise to open a discussion to settle the wider concern about travel topics that focus on a particular interest area, as opposed to travel practicalites. I'm not sure if given the drafting problems some of them are easy to scope, or if they would be better implemented in an itinerary form. I am not expecting there to be any consensus, and so would welcome as many views as possible. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:24, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

I think as long as the author of a travel topic can prove that the travel topic is related to travel, we should allow it. The problem I see with your user draft, as a start, is how it overlaps with History of justice. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 13:43, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

The GFDL license on Commons[edit]

18:11, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

GFDL is not one of the standard license types available on our upload page, so new uploads are unlikely to be a problem.
However I am concerned that this may stop the crop tool being used on GFDL images which are currently on commons. I regularly use the crop tool to create pagebanners. It isn't a problem if it uses the date on the original file, but it is a problem if commons sees a crop as a new upload with today's date. AlasdairW (talk) 21:34, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
Alexis Jazz, do you have any information about simple modifications of GFDL-licensed images? WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:45, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
@WhatamIdoing: Cropping does not create new copyright, so no worries there. Some basic retouching, brightness adjustment or rotation doesn't create new copyright either. Alexis Jazz (talk) 17:11, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

I started this in userspace. Please help me.[edit]

I think the Costa Rican network is more or less a "Central Valley S-Bahn" at this point in time and thus it could still be done to have a map with all stations and all lines. Can y'all please help me with that? Any other advise would also be very much welcome. This is the website of the national railway, which maintains schedules and whatnot. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:32, 20 September 2018 (UTC)


This is marked as an outline, but I would like to ask that this status be looked at as the article is quite extensive. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:21, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Just FYI, you don't need anyone else's approval to change the status of an article; you can just do it, specifying why in your edit summary. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:34, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
It's now at usable status, which seems appropriate. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 22:46, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

Eat or Drink?[edit]

Which section - 'Eat' or 'Drink' - is most appropriate for places which specialise in afternoon tea? There are of course many hotels which serve afternoon tea, and their place in an article is clear, but there are also tearooms which aren't attached to a restaurant or hotel.

For those who don't know, tea is a meal inasmuch as a lot of food (i.e. more than a snack amount, and potentially enough to stuff yourself depending on how greedy and/or rich you're feeling) is typically consumed, but the main focus is a pot of tea (the drink), and there will always be a lot of blends to choose from. The food, while significant in quantity and served on a platter or one of those tiered stacks, is made up of things which by themselves are just light bites: cakes, scones, small sandwiches, toasted buns, fruit etc. Some upmarket places - like this example - offer a glass of champagne with the tea. Places like the example typically don't serve full cooked meals at other times of the day; tea is all they do, all day every day.

So I'm wondering which section of an article they belong in? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:18, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

It's a judgment call, based on your determination of whether the tea or the food is more important. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:36, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
I guess so. It's just...thinking for hard :P --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:03, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
It was my understanding that the drink section was geared more towards nightlife (bars, clubs, etc.) HOWEVER: In the manual of style [3] it also lists things like bar & grills and tea/coffee houses with a note beside saying those could go into an eat listing as well. So no matter what you do, it won't be "wrong" and you can plunge boldly. DethDestroyerOfWords (talk) 21:16, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
I would put a complete afternoon tea in "eat", as I would regard it as a replacement for lunch. If I couldn't find any pubs to go in drink, then a tearoom where a pot of tea with one scone was usual would go in "drink". AlasdairW (talk) 21:51, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for your perspectives. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:42, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
I'd say the same thing as Ikan; if you usually go there to have a cup of tea and occasionally some snacks or a sandwich, then it's certainly a Drink listing. If people in general go there to have a meal, then it's an Eat. If really unsure, I put the listing in Eat. ϒpsilon (talk) 12:30, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
I'd be inclined to stick "afternoon tea" in the British sense (an afternoon meal break where tea is served with food) in "eat" as the "eat" and "drink" categories were originally intended to be analogous to the "restaurants" and "nightlife" sections of other travel guides. My guess is that the meaning of words shift because you are speaking English instead of whatever Americanised rubbish we're speaking here in the colonies; here "tea" means literally the beverage, but English usage has it as a meal break, pushing it into "eat" with the food listings. K7L (talk) 16:59, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for all the opinions; putting it under 'Eat' is what I've done. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:17, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

Dinner theatre?[edit]

Where can I stick it? There are two Buena Park#See listings for "dinner theatre" which look to be in the wrong section; dinner should be "eat" and theatre should be "do" as an activity, but "dinner theatre" isn't listed on WYCSI at all. Would it be reasonable for me to cite the placement of "comedy club" in "drink" (as nightlife) as a basis to add "dinner theatre" to WYCSI as "eat" with the rest of the restaurant listings? K7L (talk) 16:51, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

Putting it under 'Eat' makes sense, but I guess it kind of depends how big a deal the theatre/dinner aspects of it are. If the plays are eligible for industry awards, or widely recognised for the brilliant performances, a dinner theatre could arguably go in 'Do', whereas if people go for the food primarily then it's certainly an 'Eat'. Although I have no experience of this as there's only one such venue in the whole of the UK, it presumably depends on which between eating and theatre is the biggest draw.
For tea, I ended up creating a new section under the 'Eat' heading. For places where there are several dinner theatres around, that might be something which could be done.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:19, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
Personally, I'd stick this under "Eat" (maybe in a separate subsection), but there's a solid argument in favor of "Do". -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:23, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. I've updated Buena Park#Eat and Wikivoyage:Where you can stick it accordingly. K7L (talk) 19:42, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
Incidentally, I disagree with comedy clubs belonging in "Drink". Stand-up comedy is a form of nightlife only secondarily at best; at its heart, it's a performance along similar lines as live music. If concert halls belong in "Do", so do comedy clubs. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:09, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
I recall raising the same issue in 2013. K7L (talk) 22:25, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Dinner theater says "Sometimes the play is incidental entertainment, secondary to the meal, in the style of a night club, or the play may be the main feature of the evening, with dinner less important or, in some cases, optional." Medieval Times Tournament and Dinner Show (one at Buena Park) has a cast of about 75 actors and 20 horses that perform in a large arena. Pirates Dinner Adventure (the other at Buena Park) also looks to have a large cast and large set (a galleon). It looks like the main feature would be the shows, rather than the dinner. I say "Do". Nurg (talk) 08:27, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

I would usually put dinner theatre in "Do", as I did a few months ago in the Greensboro article. I think of dinner theatre as much more than just a meal, and I would expect to see it listed with other performances and activities rather than with ordinary restaurants. But in cases where the show is less important and the meal is the main draw, I can see putting them in "Eat". Glancing at the websites for the Buena Park listings, I agree with Nurg's impression that these two seem like they fit better in "Do". —Granger (talk · contribs) 09:46, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

Individual cottages and AirBnB-style units[edit]

Do we want this sort of listing, where the space for rent is one lone cottage by an individual on AirBnB or similar sites? We have Wikivoyage:Listings#Rental listings but that seems to be aimed more at restricting local rental agencies (middlemen) and landlords/landladies of long-term occupancy apartments from listing here. I've de-touted this a bit, but I'm nost sure how AirBnB fits with our rental listings policy. K7L (talk) 13:32, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

When there are few alternatives, then yes. When the cottage is particularly notable (e.g., "stay at Famous Author's house"), then yes. But in this case, where a few hotels exist? I wouldn't want a dozen such listings, but there's probably little harm from having one or two. I could go along with either decision. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:56, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

"Festivals" Secular and otherwise...[edit]

Okay this possibly an odd query but....

Wikivoyage has a an outline for Halloween, described as a secular festival.

However it was mentioned to me that there were other Autumnal festivals that occur (some secular, some with a much more religious focus.).

Would there be any scope for a broader article on these from a travel perspective? Seasonal festivals being a broad subject heading, with perhaps no more than a paragraph or two for each well known or major one?

I can think of a few "festivals" (excluding things like big Music concerts) that exist in Europe, such as Octoberfest in Germany, Scandanavian Midsummer events. Various regions have 'Harvest' related events (be it traditional Harvest home events or more recent innovations), but nothing specfic from a travel perspective..

A particular Winter Festival already has it's own articles..

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:26, 24 September 2018 (UTC)