Wikivoyage:User ban nominations

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User bans are put into practical effect by using a Mediawiki software feature to block edits to any page (except pages in that banned user's user talk namespace) by the banned user.

Add nominations for user blocks to the list below, but please do so only after reviewing Project:How to handle unwanted edits. After a nomination has been made, the nominator is responsible for ensuring that appropriate notice is given on the allegedly delinquent User's Talk page of the nomination made here.

In general the preferred way of handling problem users is through the use of soft security. In the case of automated spam attacks the Project:Spam filter can also be a valuable tool for stopping unwanted edits.

For a history of older nominations see Project:User ban nominations/Archive.


Please watch this user. I strongly believe this is User:Turbo8000/User:NeoMaps. See revision history of Spanish phrasebook. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:06, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Agree with Ikan Kekek . They have been trying to delete their ban nomination a few times. I have placed a warning on their talk page to which I hope they respond positively towards. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 00:01, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
What's the delay? The user is reinstating the exact same edits that got User:NeoMaps banned in the first place. He's banned on Spanish Wikipedia, he's got a username that implies he's a bot, and he's edit-warring. It's clearly the same person, so why not just ban him now, and save yourselves the hassle of another battle? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 01:29, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
I strongly second the above. If we're talking block evasion, you instaban as soon as it becomes clear what you're dealing with. You don't waste time here. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:39, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Yes Done -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:40, 21 November 2016 (UTC)


Is the best policy to ignore this individual and hope he/she will give up or to ban him/her as an obnoxious time-waster who came here with an ax to grind and has nothing to contribute to the site? In case you have yet to have the dubious pleasure of encountering this user, here are his/her contributions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:41, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

I do not understand why in this website any minor edition is controversial. Why not try to solve things like adult people on this website? --ControlCorV (talk) 09:58, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
I don't think we should resort to a user ban, but regular increasing blocks seem justified and enough if the unwanted behaviour doesn't change. I'm not at all convinced it's bad intentions we're seeing; the discussion on Talk:Colombia suggests to me that he/she is misreading the sentence that bothers him/her so much. I've explained one more time, so let's see what happens and simply react accordingly. JuliasTravels (talk) 16:13, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
I suspect this may be the same person as the other apparently nationalistically-motivated recent problem editor on Talk:Colombia. Was that user ever formally banned, and if so could this be construed as block evasion? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:46, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Likely just a coincidence, but I think we've had more than usual of this type of edits/editors as of lately. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:53, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
I know we already have our WV:Be fair policy, but what about a new policy explicitly dealing with nationalist agendas? They do seem to have a tendency of creeping back in (they seem to have been much more common in the earliest days) Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:03, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Except for working on the same article, I don't think there's much evidence of these being the same users (and language use and topics don't suggest it either). Nationalist agenda's is a strong word, and should be used sparingly. We have plenty of policies to deal with unwanted edits, nationalistic ones included. The tough part is to judge when they are appropriate to use. In this case, it's more likely simply a local who feels his/her country is being portrayed in an undeservedly negative way, due to language issues rather than any political agenda. At least, let's not jump to conclusions and assume good faith at first. JuliasTravels (talk) 22:00, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
It looks like things have died down, so I agree that there's no reason to act now. And perhaps JuliasTravels' last-ditch explanation did some good. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:06, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

User talk:[edit]

**Note: I've unarchived this thread because the IP user in question has resumed editing on this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:27, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

Some of these edits are disconcerning. Compare them to the "other site" and they are reversions that make our guides the same as that guide

  • Hiroshima [1].
  • Okayama edits [2] appear much the same.
  • Takamatsu [3].

This user appears to have an agenda that is harmful to our site. There is no way all of these exact same structures, links and phrases can be coincidental in multiple articles this user has made massive edits on. It was also noticed years ago (2014) on the talk page by User:Wrh2 and the user was specifically told to stop. Two of those above (Okayama and Hiroshima) are star articles. There is incentive to devalue them.

ChubbyWimbus (talk) 13:15, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Support, and I repeat once again: it's time to talk about a formal policy against duplication of content between WT and WV. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:02, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
While I agree that we want to avoid duplication, and that should be addressed, the intentions here might be more positive than suggested. I only checked one change now, to Takamatsu. It seems that this IP made the same changes to the text on both Wikitravel and Wikivoyage simultaneously. Two weeks ago, the text was just as much the same on both sites as it is now. In short; at least for that particular edit, the issue is not so much that they are copying, but rather that we prefer unique changes and updates. JuliasTravels (talk) 16:14, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment I think there are a few issues that might make a block a less-than-optimal solution, but I'll defer to those who have been more involved. First, I don't think this user's edits clearly merit a block - there may be an ulterior motive, but that isn't clear, so (if anything) reverts might be a better solution. Second, it's an IP user, and IPs can change easily, so if a block is applied it's going to turn into a game of whack-a-mole. Third, the problem with this user isn't so much that they make the same changes on both sites, but that they make huge changes in a single edit, and it's questionable whether some of the changes are an improvement - we definitely don't want changes that copy WT prose if it's not a clear improvement, but since the user puts so many changes into a single edit it makes a revert feel very heavy-handed. I'm not particularly active in working with this user, so I'll defer to those who are, but my preference would be to avoid a block and attempt communication where it's made clear that only the user's own edits can be copied, andthat large edits that copy prose will be reverted unless they are obvious improvements. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:59, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
To address some of your comments - and again, if we're talking hypothetical new policies I'm aware this isn't the place to do it - if we were to institute a rule forbidding copying from WT, I would oppose an exception for "obvious improvements" to the status quo. We're talking about prose here - specific words, phrases, and sentences - not content per se. If there's valuable information in a WT article that's not included in the analogous WV article, we should add it but not verbatim. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:40, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Unsure — To me this has been a good and valuable user who has updated articles of destinations in the former USSR and around Washington D.C. , even if it's not optimal that they edit the whole page at a time instead of breaking up stuff in smaller edits so that other users would easier be able to evaluate it. Nevertheless, if Ip50 is copying content from WT verbatim (even if it's their own text), then we should at the very least make the user aware that it's something we strongly discourage. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:55, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I find it surprising that a userban is being discussed. Is there any indication that this user would edit war if a decision were made to revert his/her edits, assuming that's the best thing to do (which seems like a complicated question to me)? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:05, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
I now Support a userban, given that the IP user has said s/he's fine with it and would rather just edit WT. However, I do maintain that the next time, before proposing a userban, the user in question should be told unambiguously not to make the same edits on both sites and warned that continuing to do so could incur a userban nomination. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:44, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This is basically punishing a user simply because we have a historical issue with WT, and not because they are actually damaging WV or breaking any policy. I also would strongly prefer the content between the two sites to be different and would support policy change discussions to formalize that. Andrewssi2 (talk) 12:00, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment Comments about informing the user should refer to what I said and the talk page. The user was informed in 2014 about the exact same issue and has either never stopped or resumed. Sure we can tell them again, but that user is already on notice. Whether or not the user starts an edit war is irrelevant. A vandal who concedes only when they're caught is still a vandal. Also one of their DC edit summaries even referenced that they were trying not to write the same as WT (and it is probably worth checking their edits outside of Japan articles against WT). Maybe this user is just horrible at writing unique content, but we/they cannot claim they are not aware of the issue and their part in it. It doesn't help that they continue to ignore comments on their talk page about their editing, including the copying one.
I reject the premise that I nominated this because of a WT "feud". I noticed because the user had done one of his/her edit spams on Okayama, an article that I watch. I noticed that work I had put into the article both to make it a star article and to make it stand out enough to show up on search engines had been undermined. That is what led me to look a little further, since the edit patterns were strange (but convenient for someone copying-and-pasting) and the user had made a lot of full-article Japan edits. It was then that I discovered that the Japan edits were made to make the content indistinguishable.
I certainly do support a policy change to ban copy-paste editing of content from WT or any source. I thought we already had something like that. There's always more than one way to describe a place/event. None of our articles should be copy-pasted from any other sources. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 15:28, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Just to clarify, my talk page comment to this user in 2014 was that it was a license violation to copy text written by other authors without providing attribution. As far as I'm aware, since then any text copied has been edits made by the same IP user on both sites, without including past text added by other authors. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:32, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
That's right. This user doesn't always reply to messages on his/her talk page, but is by no means completely uncommunicative. I'd refer everyone to his/her comment at the end of Talk:Washington, D.C.#Large edit(s). I would like to again state that I find it extremely objectionable that a userban is even being contemplated at this time. His/her edits can be reverted with an explanation to his/her talk page and the talk page(s) of the article(s) in question, if that's deemed to be the best course of action. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:12, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
ChubbyWimbus I agree and support your efforts on making these articles stand out, and completely understandable that you feel these edits undermine that good work. Again I support a discussion around how we build a framework to deal with that. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 20:52, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment regardless of this user, who may or may not have malicious intentions (they sure as hell cannot claim ignorance), we should clarify our relationship to that other site a bit more and maybe give an essay style piece of advice to new editors who wonder about the ins and outs. Our current comparison article is good but not enough. All the "regulars" know that there is bad blood and the google penalty, but newbies might genuinely not know and IB has in the past sent people our way to disrupt us. Now I am not saying the IP is this, but other than blatant trolling, making sure that the duplicate penalty stays in place is one of the first ways I would consider if I had to devise a strategy of hurting WV (Which I of course would never do, but it helps to try and think from the other side's perspective to glean their motives and find a good strategy of one's own). Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:31, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Clarifying policy is different from a userban thread. This user is simply making the same edits to both sites. How that can be interpreted as malicious is really hard for me to understand. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:44, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
I believe that the suggestion is that since mainly star articles are being edited, the edits could be interpreted as an effort to specifically devalue Wikivoyage's highest profile articles in the eyes of search engines. -- Ryan • (talk) • 23:10, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
I find the idea that the edits are malicious really hard to believe, but the solution is quite evident: Revert the changes and post to the user's talk page. Afterwards, any changes that are purely factual updates could be done piecemeal. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:38, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Either way, the user is already aware of the issue and hasn't stopped. Ambivalence is not much better than malevolence. This sort of issue though is a really annoying one to police, because you have to check it against another site. Yes, we can revert all edits and inform the user why, but we'll be right back here if they continue as they have, so I don't see why you were surprised this is something being talked about. It's serious vandalism regardless whether the user means to do it or is not bright enough to understand that copy-paste is not "unique content". But the talk page you referenced doesn't portray that user positively at all. Sure, they responded, but they did so by dismissing the concerns raised and told YOU to deal with it if you care about unique content. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 10:53, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
And then went right back and did the same thing on another article. I think any claims that this user doesn't know exactly what he's doing, or at the very least is being willfully negligent about it, are just not credible. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 11:21, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
This user has never been told point-blank to never make the same edits here that s/he makes on Wikitravel, nor has s/he been informed of this user ban thread. I will now inform him/her and solicit him/her to reply here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:43, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Even though I made the same edits to WV and WT, the parts of the articles that were changed were the same before my edits, just like they are after my edits. If I changed certain articles on WV and WT to be the same when they previously were not the same, I could understand your point, but since they were the same both before and after my edits, there is really no change in position. Also, with regards to SEO, search the web for the article titled "Matt Cutts: Duplicate Content Won’t Hurt You, Unless It Is Spammy", which implies that WV may actually not be penalized for duplicate content. I even offered to paraphrase my own text so that the sites would not be the same. Anyhow, I am fine with the ban. I will just update WT from now on, which gets 7x the daily page views as WT anyhow. 15:08, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
    Your response is appreciated. Not to sidetrack the discussion, but one clarification with regards to the Matt Cutts video you cited - he is saying that a site will not have its overall Google ranking devalued as a punishment for hosting non-spammy duplicate content, but he notes that any pages that Google thinks are duplicates will be ignored and not included in search results, which is the problem Wikivoyage is facing. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:29, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
    Is it? I usually see Wikivoyage in the results, just several spots down from WT. Powers (talk) 18:12, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
    Unless you are using a search engine that explicitly doesn't, search results are tailored to who is doing the searching. So google "knows" that you are a WV user (or something to a similar effect) and will thus give WV a "bump" in your searches as you are more likely to be interested in those hits than the average search query. Just how big the duplicate penalty is can be gleaned by looking at articles that were created after the fork, which often have quite good google ranks. And what the IP just said looks astonishingly like IB propaganda. Not to be all paranoid and stuff, but we should definitely be more on the lookout for duplicate content in the future. Just giving big sweeping edits a short second look could be a good preventative measure when doing recent changes patrol. How we deal with the editor in question will of course have to be decided independent of that. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:31, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
You're exactly right, Hobbitschuster. Personally, any lingering doubt I may have had that we might not be dealing with a troll evaporated as soon as I read the IP editor's response. It fits to a T the pattern we've seen time and time again from IB trolls: when they're called out on their nonsense, they do the tail-between-the-legs routine where they act as if they have no idea why a userban has been proposed (despite being warned about the same or essentially the same behavior before?) and the fact that anyone would even think to call their motives into question hurts their feelings, and then comes the plot twist at the end where they turn from mock-penitent to spiteful, threatening to leave for Wikitravel because they're the superior site anyway. It's a spiel that's tired, predictable to the point of being a cliché, and totally transparent. And some of us Wikivoyage editors really have to learn how to recognize a pattern and avoid falling into the trap of giving these trolls the benefit of the doubt. Assuming good faith has nothing to do with it: take for example the long-term abuse case file on user "John Daker" over at Wikipedia. They don't waste time sending out nice little talk-page messages every time they see one of his sockpuppets add a black triangle or some gobbledygook about Huff Daland Dusters to an article, because AGF - they instaban the accounts, no questions asked. Here, meanwhile, many of us seem content to react to these trolls the same way over and over expecting different results. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:49, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
Well, yeah, now that the IP user has put things this way, I think we should take him/her up on the userban and revert all his/her work. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:42, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
Incidentally, this is exactly why, in another conversation, I expressed suspicion of WV users who are also active at WT. Invariably, the problem editors who engage in the above pattern of behavior are avowed editors of both sites, and I have found that in the vast majority of cases it also works the other way around (the Frank/Alice/118 hydra was also active at WT, IIRC). -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:54, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
I believe they were permanently banned from WT before they were from WV. But haven't we had admins who were active on both sites after the fork? I seem to remember that being true. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:16, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Conclusion, length of ban[edit]

Does anyone continue to oppose a userban, now that the user in question has said s/he's OK with being banned, and WT is better, anyway? And how long should we ban an IP address? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:14, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

If they really do voluntarily cease making unwanted edits on this wiki, no block is necessary. But if a block is to be applied, our policy on escalating blocks says 3 days for the first block. Then 2 weeks if they make unwanted edits after that, and so on. Nurg (talk) 09:00, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
Perhaps a three day block just to revert all of the edits... Some cannot be reverted because of edits since this user's edits. It took me forever to do the Okayama page. Maybe admins can more easily do it. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 13:43, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
The user has made just a few edits a day, and none after the giveaway comment above where they also say they won't edit here anymore. If they've now disappeared for good, I think it's meaningless to ban the IP. ϒpsilon (talk) 13:56, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
If we're to assume the user is an IB troll, then nrwt applies given that they're editing on behalf of a company that's brought legal action against the WMF in the past and, even for some time after that was settled, still continued to send trolls over here to disrupt things. Though the usual prescription of an indefinite-term ban is impossible for an anonymous IP editor, I still think we have grounds for a ban far longer than three days. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 14:33, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
Not for an IP. We should only be using IP bans to prevent disruptive editing. If the editing has stopped, then we shouldn't risk blocking a legitimate user from that IP. Powers (talk) 15:18, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

(indent) So if the user edits again, we block or we assume it's a new user? I hope though that some admin is at least following through on the reversion of this user's contributions within the past month or so. I don't want those to get put to the wayside regardless of what is decided in terms of the ban. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 16:17, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

In March 2015 one of the IB admins blocked for a week on WT, so I doubt it is an IB person. Nurg (talk) 08:00, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
That may be so, but does the fact that they are an IB person or not have any bearing on our ban procedures? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 10:40, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

I dont work for IB; if I did, I wouldn't go through the trouble of improving WV. 16:05, 2 November 2016 (UTC) Just curious as to the reason you want to revert my edits....goes to show that you are willing to hurt the site just because of a personal dispute..... 16:14, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Barring objection I'm going to close this nomination today without any action. At this point a block seems pointless based on the fact that the user isn't editing articles right now, but more importantly there does not seem to be any consensus for a block, there is no agreement on a block length, and the discussion is turning into speculation and accusations rather than anything resembling what's been previously agreed to in WV:How to handle unwanted edits#Last resorts. If anyone has concerns about particular edits and wants to revert them please do so, but continuing this discussion as a ban nomination does not seem like it is a productive activity. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:17, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

A question: What was the reason given by that other site for the block? Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:50, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

January 2017 re-emergence[edit]

The user in question has been contributing again. Should we take any action? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:27, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

Do these new edits consist of yet more WT copypasta? If so, my position remains the same as it always has been: 1) yes, by all means block the user, and 2) for God's sake let's get moving on formally banning verbatim copying from WT. Obviously it's a problem that needs to be addressed - we've seen several examples of it already - and we've dropped the ball on solving it too many times already. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:37, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Simply re-nominating this user because he is "editing", without naming a clear reason for a block and when a previous nomination never gained a consensus to block seems wrong. What exactly is the reason for this nomination anyway? At first glance, the edits here and on WT do not seem the same (information is being added here, which wasn't on WT). He did remove some closed listings on both sites, but I do hope we don't want to stop anyone from deleting wrong information, even if they do so on both sites? We're jumping the gun with this one. The user has been responsive in the past. If there is another problem with his latest edits, why not simply start a discussion on his talk page before nominating for a ban? JuliasTravels (talk) 21:23, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
I agree with JuliasTravels, and was actually already writing a comment at User_talk: when the above comment was added here. -- Ryan • (talk) • 21:29, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Agree also. Unfortunately, Ikan and AndreCarrotflower, while longtime editors with good contributions, are simply not to be trusted with regard to their judgment on such matters. They are the embodiment of the "ban first, ask questions later" admin type who drive contributors away from wikis. Very clearly they have a lot of WT envy and paranoia that clouds their otherwise good reputation here. I think the IP user in question is enogmatic, and some people don't like that. But that is NOT a reason to ban them. SpendrupsForAll (talk) 21:35, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Oh hi, Spendrups. Haven't seen you since 2014; haven't seen you in mainspace since ever. It's certainly interesting, yet certainly not out of character, to see that you've reemerged on these less-green pastures in a random userban discussion to grind your axe against two long term editors whom you address by name. You might be interested to know that these days we take a much harder line against dramamongers like yourself than we did in the heady old days of Frank and Alice, so unless you want to see your name come up on this page in a different capacity, I'd kindly ask you to avoid stirring the pot and maybe concentrate on mainspace edits, which, again, you've logged precisely zero of in more than three years on Wikivoyage. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:53, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Not to get too sidetracked, but insulting other editors is obviously not a productive way to collaborate, although it is (in my opinion) just as harmful to respond to those sorts of edits with comments like the above - a future ban for uncivil behavior is harder to support when those implementing the ban make comments that can be seen as uncivil. WV:Keep Wikivoyage fun has some agreed-upon processes in place that may be worth reviewing. -- Ryan • (talk) • 22:13, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
But then you'd be objecting to the original thread. All I did was revive it since s/he's started editing again. And as I said, simply spreading awareness of that fact and the need to monitor it is useful. To make clear to the IP user: You are not at threat of being banned right now. We are watching your edits to see if they are problematic or not. If not, wonderful, and carry on. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:20, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Ryan, take a look at Spendrups' contribution history and then seriously try to tell me he has any intention of helping us create a travel guide. Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits#User ban says editors who are clearly only here to cause trouble can get permabanned without consultation, and frankly, being called out by name like this doesn't push me in the direction of showing him much mercy. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:58, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
If the user is copy and pasting from WT without attribution then that is an issue in itself. A conversation with the contributor is always the appropriate way to handle it, but if they steadfastly refuse interaction then we should judge the edits on their own merit. I'm going to say this edit doesn't actually raise any alarm bells for me, but it is worth spreading awareness if this has potential to be an issue in the future. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:01, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Just to clarify: I'm not exactly renominating this user for a ban. I just thought that since we had closed the nomination at least partially on the basis that s/he had paused in editing, it was worth discussing whether to do anything now. As far as I'm concerned, merely alerting everyone to watch what s/he does is fine, but I think that as long as s/he's editing, this nomination should probably remain open for possible future action, depending on the nature of his/her edits going forward. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:11, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
My assumption is that anything on this page is a ban nomination - the top of this page notes "Add nominations for user blocks to the list below". If this isn't a ban nomination ("I'm not exactly renominating this user for a ban") can the desired outcome be clarified and the discussion moved elsewhere? -- Ryan • (talk) • 23:49, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
The outcome was a discussion and awareness. We had that. I am satisfied, and we can either re-close discussion or keep this open for a time while watching edits. I'd favor the latter. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:52, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
I prefaced my comments with a question regarding whether the user had copypasted any more WT text. It looks like he didn't, for which reason I'm fine with holding off on a userban, but if and when he does, that will be my position. However, though I know it's a discussion for another talk page, the IMO far more important of the two points I made was the one regarding instituting a formal policy against WT copypasta. Copying text written on WT by another author is already a violation of copyleft, but when the same user adds identical text to both sites, that's something current policy merely discourages rather than prohibits outright. As I see it, we're leaving ourselves wide open for the other site to tamper with the progress we've made with SEO. And if that sounds too much like a conspiracy theory for some people's taste, it seems like most instances of copying from WT that we've seen fall into that category anyway, regardless of intention. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:05, 14 January 2017 (UTC)


The user has been identified electronically as probably the Telstra vandal, and has been engaged with edit warring. Just letting the admins know, so you can do what is needed. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:13, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for noting this. My own view is that because of the filter it is now easy to roll back this person's edits if they are not appropriate and so I wouldn't advocate a ban. I'm definitely not defending their conduct, but should also be said that the 'edit war' is rather on the benign side. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 21:21, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, on the theory of "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em," maybe we should just police the edits and engage in permanent blocks of individual tentacles of this individual only when the edits are real abuses. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:31, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
I'm also in favor of reverting and blocking as he pops up - he's low volume and easily manageable. The only caveat is that other editors need some awareness of what's going on so that we don't have to start debates about why an account was blocked or an edit was reverted - I sometimes do a mass revert as soon as I notice a problem edit, and a few people have undone those reverts with comments indicating that they disapproved of my action. -- Ryan • (talk) • 21:43, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, that's, excuse the language, bullshit. People, please don't do that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:48, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
In my view, before we can begin considering doing anything other than staying the course (ie indefbanning on sight any new iteration of this user for reasons of block evasion, regardless of quality of edits) this user has to, at a minimum, respond to one of the talk page messages we keep leaving. We've repeatedly emphasized to this user that the doors are open for him or her to be accepted into the fold as a constructive contributor, but the onus is on him or her to be responsive to the concerns of the community first, before we reciprocate any rapprochement he or she might start on. Failing that, the question becomes: if all it takes to convince us to give up on enforcing policy is to keep antagonizing us for a long enough time, what meaning does policy have? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:52, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
Well, ultimately it's going to be up to you guys, as admins, to decide. But I have to ask; what's the problem with indefbanning the accounts as you find them? It doesn't take long, does it; it's just a click of a mouse. Why should we or any other user waste time policing and following this person around when it is in your power to just ban them? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:58, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
Precisely. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:06, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
It is more of pragmatism towards a user who has been doing these edits for many years, refuses to communicate and seemingly not cares if their edits are reverted. I understand the principled approach that a banned user should remain banned until their bahavior improves, just as long as we are clear that road will potentially last as long as the natural lifespan of this contributor. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:25, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
I think that's rather an oversimplification of the Telstra troll's behavior. It seems to me like this user is playing a long game. Their edits have slowly but definitively evolved in sync with our tactics at addressing the problem - first they made subtle changes to their edit pattern to avoid tripping the abuse filter, forcing us to cast a wider and wider net, then they began signing on from non-Telstra IPs from time to time, then most recently they began establishing user accounts (using predictable naming patterns) as a further way to sidestep the filter. I have no doubt that eventually they'll begin varying the pattern of usernames they use, and we'll have to change up our strategy yet again. However, the fact that the pattern of refusing to respond to talk page messages has remained consistent throughout all these phases says to me that this is in fact trolling, and not a good-faith editor who is merely extraordinarily stubborn, persistent, and slow on the uptake. Aside from ThunderingTyphoons' very well taken point that filtering good edits from bad ones adds an unnecessary extra layer of work for us admins, the fact remains that talk of backing down is harmful vis-à-vis this user's clearly unconstructive intentions for the site. Not to mention the fact that all of this is not happening in a bubble - though it might come off sounding like conspiracy theory to folks who haven't been in the trenches and seen it with their own eyes, one thing that's been very remarkable to me throughout my tenure as a Wikivoyage admin is how often you have a troll who watches and learns from other trolls (for example, the recently resurfaced SpendrupsForAll was pretty obviously a star student at the W. Frank Institute of Disruptive Editing), observing and then exploiting the weak points in admins' response. We go down a potentially dangerous road when we let our resolve flag. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:09, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
[Edit conflict] OK, I guess my pragmatic point of view would be this: No, we don't need to police his edits. However, any edit he makes that is clearly useful shouldn't be reverted. If we really want to keep playing Whack-a-Mole with his latest identity, fine, but we can see that as many times as he's banned, he will use another alias or IP address to continue editing. So it's kind of a no-win situation. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:13, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
Andre, the thing is, W.Frank made a whole lot of useful edits, while the other guy you mentioned has made none, so no comparison in that respect. As for this Telstra guy, he's definitely a contrarian playing games, but aside from being a gadfly, I'm not sure just how harmful his intentions are. It seems to me that many of his edits are attempts at doing something he thinks is good. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:16, 17 January 2017 (UTC)