Talk:Panajachel

External links

I've seen two different anonymous editors in the last couple of days remove the link to www.panajachel.com and add a link to www.atitlan.net. The edits seem not to follow the Project:External links policy. That policy says, "In general the Wikivoyage policy is that external links should be kept to a bare minimum, and only links to primary sources should be used.... Avoid linking to secondary sources.... In particular, avoid links to other travel guides. We should have travel information in Wikivoyage, not linked to from Wikivoyage. This is an incentive issue; if we have lots of links to other travel guides, we lose the impetus to create our own. In addition, many users print copies of Wikivoyage articles, and therefore need information to be within the article rather than linked to at another site."

Both panahachel.com and atitlan.net look like information-filled, useful web sites. Atitlan.net looks clearly like a secondary source, and so shouldn't be linked to in this article. It's not clear to me if Panajachel.com is a primary or secondary source. If primary, it can stay. If secondary, it must go also. I've been leaving it in because it was there before.

To editors who are adding links to atitlan.net and removing panajachel.com (especially on 02:44, 5 November 2006 72.252.57.114 and on 15:48, 2 November 2006 by 200.6.234.159), this is my reason for reverting your edits. If anybody wants to add information to this article to meet the needs filled by those sites, please add that information -- though be sure that information is yours, or you have permission to add it. (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt 15:54, 6 November 2006 (EST)

I am the webmaster of www.panajachel.com and have read the comments below. I must confess some ignorance to the policies of this site. I only thought that the links I have placed would be useful to all travelers. I at no time have edited any link to www.atitlan.net but I suspect the webmaster of www.atitlan.net has been removing my information. I don't wish to get into a petty battle with anyone. Let it be known that other webmasters have complained to me about unscrupulous activities by www.atitlan.net. Please inform me of the proper way to place my links as they definitively aid travelers even though I know its not a complete listing. I had placed www.panajachel.com as the official website for Panajachel because I had a contract with the Panajachel Chamber of Commerce which would not appear in any whois search. Admittedly I no longer work with the chamber of commerce but still I believe my site offers much to the common traveler. Soon I will be launching a much more complete index for all that panajachel has to offer. What is the difference between a primary source and a secondary source? I wish to understand and comply with your rules.I hope you appreciate my honesty. Please let me know how to rectify this situation. If you would like you can e-mail me directly using my contact link on my www.panajachel.com site. Thank You JimDeLaHunt. -- —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 72.252.49.202 (talk • contribs)

Another comment about my hotel, restaurant,stores, nightlife,coffee and activities pages on www.panajachel.com all reside in Panajachel. Yes my links page offers info for people who come to Panajachel to other interesting activities around Guatemala. I will change any discrepency if it is neccesary. -- —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 72.252.49.202 (talk • contribs)

Whether your guide is useful or not our concern -- we choose not to be the judges of which websites are useful or good or helpful or evil. Instead, we choose to write a travel guide and spend our time on that instead of spending much time duplicating the effort of other projects (see http://www.dmoz.org ) which already do a fine job of linking to websites. The only links we permit are those which are to Primary Sources. The government of Panajachel is a primary source. The tourisms division of the government of Panajachel is a primary source. The web site of a particular hotel is a primary source for that hotel. A fine tourism guide written by good people which does not fit the above categories is not a primary source. Please read Project:External links for the full explaination and details of this policy -- (WT-en) Colin 02:53, 22 November 2006 (EST)

I am the owner of atitlan.net. As you an see, my IP address is neither 72.252.57.114 nor 200.6.234.159 . I don't know why my site, or my name has become part of this discussion, but I wish it would stop. thanks, J —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 148.78.245.11 (talk • contribs)

Good news for all Panajachel website operators! I followed the Wikivoyage official Links to Open Directory practice to put a link from the Panajachel article to http://dmoz.org/Regional/Central_America/Guatemala/Localities/Panajachel/Travel_and_Tourism/ . You are welcome to be sure that your Panajachel-related web site is listed in the Open Directory. (BTW I also added a link to Wikipedia's article on Panajachel.) (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt 16:33, 25 November 2006 (EST)

Repeated edits that don't help Wikivoyage

Since Nov 2nd, 2006, there have been repeated edits to the Panajachel article, and isolated edits to the Antigua (Guatemala) and Guatemala articles. These edits have come from anonymous editors, ie people who don't use Wikivoyage user names. I'd like to explain to these people that I believe your edits are not helping Wikitraval achieve its goals. That is why I have been reverting (undoing) your changes. Please let me explain.

The edits have included the following actions:

• Adding links to www.atitlan.net or pages on that site. This is unhelpful because it is against the Project:External links policy. We want the information in this article, so that anyone who prints the page out gets the information. A link is not very helpful on a printed page. Also, Wikivoyage is not here to help promote any individual travel web site. See the #External links section above for more information.
• Removing the link to www.panajachel.com. When someone removes the link to panajachel.com and adds a link to another site, it looks like a competitor is trying to use Wikivoyage to promote their site. Wikivoyage is neutral, please do not use it for competition (see Project:Goals and non-goals). Now, if Panajachel.com is an official site for Panajachel, then the link belongs here. If Panajachel.com is just another private tourism site like atitlan.net, then the link does not belong here. However, Wikivoyage is neutral between competing businesses.
• Removing entries for businesses. At times people have deleted the entries for Casa Del Mundo, La Iguana Perdida, Hotel Atitlan, and Sunset Cafe. It is not appropriate to remove entries for legitmate but competing business from Wikivoyage. Travellers deserve to know about all the useful businesses in a place.

To the people making these changes, I would like to make the following requests:

1. Please continue to contribute, but in a helpful way. I believe you know interesting information about Panajachel and Guatemala, and I hope you will add that information to Wikivoyage. Some of you have corrected formatting errors in the article. That was good, and I appreciate it.
2. Read Wikivoyage's advice for contributors. In particular, please read Project:Welcome, newcomers, and Project:Tips for new contributors. This will explain why the changes until now have not been appropriate.
3. Register a user name, and log in to make edits. If you have a user name, then your edits will have more credibility. Also, it will be easier for people who have disagreements with your work to talk directly with you. See Project:How to create a user account.
4. Discuss changes on this page. The purpose of this page, Talk:Panajachel, is to provide a place to discuss changes to the Panajachel article. If you want to get a consensus for a change, write about your proposal here, and watch the responses. By the way, it helps to type ~~~~ after comments on this Talk page, so that Wikivoyage can add your user name and the time you made your comments.
5. Understand our motivations. I and some others who have been reverting (undoing) your changes are not attempting to stop your contribution, we are attempting to help Wikivoyage. If you can find a way to make your contributions in a way that helps Wikivoyage, then we will be your supporters.
6. Don't try to outlast everyone else. The people making these changes are persistent. This has been going on for nearly two weeks. I think that even with your persistence, you will not succeed. There are at least three Wikivoyage volunteers, working independently, who are watching this article and reverting changes that we think are inappropriate. I expect there are more people to undo changes than to make changes. And note that, because of the way Wikivoyage works, it is actually easier for us to undo changes than it is for you to make them.

I hope this explanation is helpful. I'm sure the present situation is unsatisfying for you as well as for me. Let's work together. If you'd like to make a response, please edit it in below. (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt 15:57, 12 November 2006 (EST)

www.panajachel.com is in no way an "official" site. A simple whois query will reveal that. In fact, it has a less than stellar reputation in Panajachel. The hotels that you mentioned were removed because they are not located in Panajachel. If you have ever been in Panajachel, you'd know that every block of every street has several names, and there are no street signs. I thought an overhead view, with locations marked would be helpful for visitors trying to find the hotels mentioned in the article. Without a map, someone could, and has, spent a lot of time trying to find a hotel that doesn't exist in Panajachel. atitlan.net has well over 2500 pages. A lot of people, who actually live in Panajachel, are insulted that you think it is a secondary source. [This text added on 18:02 PST, 2006 November 15, by 72.252.58.227.]

Perhaps the popular uprising in the streets of Panajachel is caused by a misunderstanding about what "primary source" and "secondary source" mean. It doesn't refer to the quality but to the origin of the work. --(WT-en) Evan 11:11, 16 November 2006 (EST)

Hello, and thank you for adding your comment. Now we can talk and make progress. I see you making several points:

• panajachel.com is not a primary source. Good observation; I'm starting a discussion under #panajachel.com not a primary source below. Let's call for comments, and if there's no objection, delete it.
• handling of hotels not in Panajachel proper. Good observation; I'm starting another discussion under #Subdivide "Sleep" below. I'll also make an initial edit right away.
• A map would be useful for the Panajachel article. I agree, a map would be great! Can you provide a map that can be uploaded to Wikivoyage and included within the article? If so, that would be great for Wikivoyage. Note that the map needs to provided under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 1.0 license; see Project:Copyleft. See how to upload an image at Project:How to add an image. See also Project:How to draw a map. I'm happy to help with the technical details if you wish.
• "A lot of people... are insulted that [I think atitlan.net] is a secondary source." I'm sorry that people are insulted. I don't mean any disrespect for atitlan.net. It looks like a fine site. The terms "primary" and "secondary" aren't about quality, they are about relationship of the site to the place being described. See Project:External links#What to link to. For example: "Official tourist offices for a destination [and] Official government Web sites" are primary sources. atitlan.net is not one of these. (It sounds like you are making the case that panajachel.com is not one either. Fair enough.)
• I ((WT-en) JimDeLaHunt) don't know Panajachel very well. True. I've been there once, briefly. I'm confident that you and many WikiTravel contributors know Panajachel much better than I do. However, I think I understand Wikivoyage pretty well. Working together, we can make a great Panajachel article in Wikivoyage.

Thank you again for your comments. Let's continue this conversation; please edit here and under the sections below, as appropriate. And by the way, what is your name? I don't want to keep calling you "72.252.58.227". (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt 12:04, 16 November 2006 (EST)

200.6.224.84, you made some great additions on 16 November. Thank you, and please continue! (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt 04:30, 19 November 2006 (EST)

• Just to complicate the issue even more, I am the editor of atitlan.com (not atitlan.net). Wether or not panajachel.com is the "official" site of Panajachel is up to those who decide such things. I, as a competitor, would be willing to concede that if it isn't the official site, it is the closest thing to it there is.

But that isn't really the point. What I do take exception to is the comment "it has a less than stellar reputation in Panajachel". This is not the forum for such comments, especially from anonymous sources with no evidence to back such statements up, even if such evidence existed.

How does such a comment help travelers? This is nothing more than sour grapes and absolutely nothing to do with wikivoyage.

Duncan Aitken atitlan.com

Duncan Aitken (you are User:(WT-en) Maango, I presume): thank you for these comments, and thanks for giving us your name to use. I understand that "it has a less than stellar reputation in Panajachel", from an anonymous person when the other party can't respond, isn't very nice. That says something about the person who said it, doesn't it? This is the place for such comments, because it's where people who talk about the Panajachel article can have our discussions. The main article is clear not the place for such discussions, and that's part of the reason the External links policy discourages links in the main article. I hope to have many more contributions from you to Wikivoyage, as you see fit. Thank you, (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt 23:07, 22 November 2006 (EST)

I just wanted to thank Duncan Aitken for his unbiased comments. We have had competing websites for about nine years and we have never lowered ourselves like the owner of atitlan.net. Both Duncan and I have lived here for 20+ years and are fluent in both Spanish and our knowledge of Panajachel, Lake Atitlan and its people. Jerry Smith (the owner of atitlan.net) on the other hand is just being cruel. Thanks again to Duncan!

John Riddle panajachel.com

panajachel.com not a primary source

'www.panajachel.com is in no way an "official" site. A simple whois query will reveal that', writes 72.252.58.227 on 18:02 PST, 2006 November 15.

I've done a teensy bit of research and I can't seem to find an official Web site for Panajachel, so I've removed that link. --(WT-en) Evan 11:11, 16 November 2006 (EST)

I did a whois search on panajachel.com. The Registrant is listed as:

Sunset Cafe Restaurant
Apartado Postal 106
Panajachel, Solola 07010 GT

The Administrative Contact and Technical Contact are listed as one person:

Riddle, John riddlej@VIRTUALGUATEMALA.COM
Virtual Guatemala
Apartado Postal 106
Panajachel Solola 07010  GT
0115024162122 fax: 0115027621278

Neither of these sound like INGUAT, the official Guatemalan tourist agency. INGUAT's site is visitguatemala.com, and I don't see that they have a page on Panajachel.

Thus I think that our colleague 72.252.58.227 is right, and panajachel.com is not an official site. Thus I think it should not have a link per the Project:External links policy. I propose removing that link. However, since someone else included it, and since it's been the subject of editing disputes recently, I'd like to leave the subject open for comment for a few days. If you have an opinion, please edit it in below. (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt 12:04, 16 November 2006 (EST)

• Support removal. (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt 12:04, 16 November 2006 (EST)
• ((WT-en) Evan removed it)

www.panajachel.com was officially leased to the Panajachel Chamber of Commerce but that was over three years ago and at that time it was the official website for Panajachel. www.panajachel.com has not claimed to be the official site for over a thousand days as our contract terminated. Lets stay on track here. The comment made above is nothing more than a cheap trick by whoever wrote it (and we all know who) as you from Wikivoyage were keen to point out that "someone" from Atitlan.net was removing entries made by www.panajachel.com. Did I remove www.atitlan.net info. I don't think so! You guys would know that. My point is please remove the slanderous whois statement above as it has absolutely no merit and has been posted for far to long. I'll let you do it so you can show me your integrity and I can regain my faith that you can see through this childlish attempt to discredit www.panajachel.com. I hope to see some remarks from the Wikivoyage watchdogs asap. One more thing I used to be the owner of the Sunset Cafe which you guys noticed was removed by "Someone" isn't that a coincidence.

Even Duncan the owner of www.atitlan.com stated that my site comes as close to an official site representing Panajachel than any other.

Best Regards, John Riddle www.panajachel.com —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Panajachel (talk • contribs) 05:39, 2007 November 13 Moved to end of this section by (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt 02:29, 15 November 2007 (EST)

I John Riddle removed the Information stating that www.panajachel.com is the official website for Panajachel. I waited a long time to see if you guys would get around to the realization that www.panajachel.com doesn't claim to be in any way the "Official Site" for Panajachel and remove it yourselves. Didn't you (wikivoyage) look into the validity of his claim before even letting it become an issue? It should have never been an argument or even been given any creedence. Show me where www.panajachel.com makes such a claim. As I stated many times. www.panajachel.com was leased to the Panajachel Chamber of Commerce but that ended over three years ago (I have a signed document from the Panajachel Chamber of Commerce that I can produce at any moment) so I took it upon myself to remove the nonsense that Jerry Smith of www. atitlan.net copied and pasted from the who is data base from network solutions. If you take a close look you will see I was the owner of the Sunset Cafe in Panajachel and wikivoyage noticed that someone was removing its information as well as www.panajachel's. I wonder who was behind that? For your information I John Riddle was the original owner of www.atitlan.net but by a series of miscommunications I did not have the chance to renew it. Jerry Smith who I considered a friend unscrupulously bought it with full knowledge that it was mine. Extremely bad taste. Need I say more. This is the truth and nothing but the truth anyone who knows anything about websites in Panajachel will back me up on this. Network Solutions must have a record that will back me up on that and if not I probably have a printed page that shows clearly that I purchased it. Jerry I always liked you. Why do you behave in such a manner? And about www.panajachel.com having a less than a steller reputation thats laughable. Jerry has been visiting Guatemala for over 30 years and has a Spanish vocabulary of close to zero. I am fluent in Spanish and more importantly fluent in relating with almost everyone in Panajachel. No one even knows who Jerry is. I am on a first name basis with practically the whole community and and well liked. My daughter was born here. I donated money to the basketball association of panajachel to put lights on their courts as well as buying rims and uniforms for countless teams over 18 years. I coached the 12 to 17 year old girls basketball team two years ago to the national tournament. I have made websites for free for the victims of Panabaj. I hope anybody that is reading this can get the picture. I'm not perfect and don't claim to be but I won't tolerate this low life behavior. If I were in the states I could sue him. I'm not like that though. Hope you all get the idea! Peace! —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Panajachel (talk • contribs) 07:35, 2007 November 15

• I (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt restored the deleted text and moved User:(WT-en) Panajachel's comment to the bottom of the section. I'm not comfortable having record of discussions deleted. The deleted text confirms Riddle's statements, rather than disputes it. I think we are all agreed that panajachel.com is not an official site for the city of Panajachel, and doesn't claim to be. Thus I don't see why information that backs up that fact should be deleted. (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt 16:10, 15 November 2007 (EST)

• John Riddle, I get the impression that you feel let down by certain people in Panajachel. I sympathise, but that isn't an issue for Wikivoyage. What matters to me as a volunteer here is writing a travel guide that will help visitors to Panajachel. I do not see anyplace in this Talk page where anyone claims that panajachel.com is an "official" site for the city or tourist office of Panajachel. We are all agreed on that point. For the record, the link to www.panajachel.com was added to the main Panajchel article by anonymous editor 68.51.81.194 once on 11:10-11:15, 2006 July 21, and in a second place on 10:03, 2006 August 21. User:(WT-en) Wrh2 moved the link to the top of the article at 10:28-10:29, 2006 August 21. Based on discussion here, User:(WT-en) Evan deleted the link on 09:09, 2006 November 16. Now the article doesn't have any general external links. The only links now are in listings, to official pages for those attractions. Thus, I must confess I don't see how this commentary is about Wikivoyage. It may be about various people in Panajachel, but those disputes are outside of Wikivoyage's scope. (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt 16:10, 15 November 2007 (EST)

Subdivide "Sleep"

Right now there are 11 places listed under "Sleep", so it may be worth subdividing into subheadings.

72.252.58.227 points out that three are out of Panajachel proper (Casa Del Mundo, La Iguana Perdida, Hotel Atitlan). I'm comfortable with moving their listings to a better place in Wikivoyage, but I don't think we should delete them entirely. Is there another article which would be better for any of them? Right now I think Panajachel serves as a description of the Atitlan area in addition to describing the town itself. Thus they should stay in this article.

Casa Del Mundo is Jaibalito, not Panajachel. Jabalito has no tourist facilities, other than this hotel. [This comment on 20:48, 2006 November 17 by anonymous editor 200.6.232.101]

In a quick search, I don't see a page for Jaibalito. I do see an article for Lake Atitlan. There is a brief entry for Casa Del Mundo there. Maybe it makes sense to move this content to that article? (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt 04:28, 19 November 2006 (EST)

I moved Casa Del Mundo to Lake Atitlán, which is now a proper regional article. (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt 20:28, 19 November 2006 (EST)

La Iguana Perdida is in Santa Cruz La Laguna. Do these pueblos have their own page? With over 50 hotels in Panajachel, and many, many more in Santa Catarina, San Antonio Polopo, or Solola (which are all closer to Pana and accessible by wheeled vehicle) do we need to include hotels that are not there? [This comment on 20:48, 2006 November 17 by anonymous editor 200.6.232.101]

In a quick search I don't see a page for Santa Cruz La Laguna. Would you like to create one? Or maybe expand the Lake Atitlan article? Bear in mind that all these hotel entries appeared because someone thought they would be of service to travellers in Panajachel. There are many other hotels not listed, and the best response to that is to add the listings that make sense, not to delete other good listings. Please plunge forward and make additions! (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt 04:28, 19 November 2006 (EST)

I created an article for Santa Cruz la Laguna, and moved La Iguana Perdida there. (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt

How about adding a subheading "Nearby", and putting these three places under there? I'll make that edit, and look for comments here, or better edits in the article.

Also, the Big city article template suggests dividing "Sleep" into the subsections Budget, Mid-range, and Splurge. That might be a good approach here. Any idea what price is the boundary between "Budget" and "mid-range" in Panajachel these days? What about between "Mid-range" and "Splurge"? (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt 12:04, 16 November 2006 (EST)

In general, most domains of official websites in Guatemala are registered in Guatemala, and thus end in ".gt", not .com . Why are there 3 hotels listed that are not in Panajachel? Do you think this is a service to the readers of the page, or someone else? [text added 08:18, 2006 November 16 by user 200.6.224.84, and moved to this section by (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt]

You and I were writing simultaneously, so you wouldn't have seen my comments above. Unless there is a better article for them to go to, then I think the hotel listings near Panajachel can stay in the Panajachel article. I think those listings do serve tourists, they aren't too commercial. And I think there are major exceptions to the principle that most domains of official websites end in ".gt"; INGUAT's domain is "visitguatemala.com". (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt 12:13, 16 November 2006 (EST)

Please show me where www.panajachel claims to be the official site of Panajachel? You are very naive editors and have not checked your sources. Its really like defimation. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Panajachel (talk • contribs) 03:13, 2007 November 13

Guatemala official websites

Please see: https://www.inguat.gob.gt/Inguat, Congress of the Republic of Guatemala, Judicial Branch of Guatemala, Guatemalan Government Page. These are taken from wikipedia. I believe they are "official" government sites. [These comments on 20:30, 2006 November 17 by anonymous editor 200.6.232.101]

(I condensed the list of links.) Thanks for researching these links. However, the discussion in this article is about official links for the city of Panajachel. All of these look like national links. Thus, they don't help a traveler visit Panajachel, and aren't appropriate for this article. (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt 04:19, 19 November 2006 (EST)

Lake Atitlán as Region article

I've just done some work to prepare Lake Atitlán as a "region" in the geographical hierarchy. This article can be a place for information about the Lake Atitlán region in general, plus suggestions for what visitors can do in each town, plus listings for hotels not in a specific town. There are links to articles for seven of the towns around the lake. Information about hotels in a particular town can go in that town's article. Thus, the Panajachel can now be about Panajachel only, not about regional information. Please take a look, and add on there. If you find information here in the Panajachel article that is about a different town or the region, please move it to a new home, don't just delete it from here. Thanks, everyone, for your contributions. (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt 20:33, 19 November 2006 (EST)

[http://www.spirited-expeditions.com/ Lake Atitlan Hotel] —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 69.108.110.133 (talk • contribs) 0:46, 2007 September 9

The correct place to add a hotel listing is in the destination article for the town where the hotel is located. I've added this hotel listing to the San Marcos (Guatemala). It's disappointing to see that the same IP address which added this comment to Panajachel also deleted two hotel listings from the Lake Atitlán article. It almost looks like someone is trying to promote one business by hiding information about competitors. That sort of behaviour doesn't help travellers, so it doesn't belong on WikiTravel. I put "nowiki" tags around the above comment, so that it doesn't serve to strengthen a search engine ranking. (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt 19:00, 10 September 2007 (EDT)

Good. Lake Atitlan as a region obviously including Panajachel is a positive start. John Riddle www.panajachel.com —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Panajachel (talk • contribs) 04:07, 2007 November 13

Panajachel map

I've done a survey in Panajachel this week. There are 85 hotels in Panajachel, and 37 restaurants on Calle Santander alone. Do you think this would make an unintelligible map? [This comment added on 17:10, 2006 November 21 by anonymous editor 72.252.49.155]

I'm sure that it's possible to draw a legible map with 85 hotels and 37 restaurants. Maybe it would need to be multiple maps, one of Panajachel overall, and one of the dense area of Calle Santander. But is it helpful to travellers to include all of those hotels and restaurants? Let's select just the ones most recommended to Wikivoyage readers, put good descriptions of them in the text, and include them in the map. Wikivoyage's goals and non-goals say it shouldn't be a directory of all restaurants, hotels, or bars for a city. "Think of a friend from out of town asking you where they should go -- you wouldn't list all 200 possibilities, but 5-10 options for a particular type, budget, or part of town." So, which 5-10 of the 85 hotels, and which 5-10 of the 37 restaurants, should go in the Panajachel article and on the map? (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt 23:39, 21 November 2006 (EST)

General comment

Jim, I have been out of the loop for some time on this discussion about who's site really represents Panajachel. By the way a map of Panajachel has been on my site for years http://www.panajachel.com/travel.htm. Sure it doesnt show every single establishment but at least it is a reference source. Go to http://www.atitlan.net/guatemala-map.htm and you will notice that the drop down link has references to places that don't exist (suspicious) and also takes you all over the place 100's of miles from Panajachel. I believe I have one link to www.chiminosisland.com that is not located around the lake .It is abundantly clear that www.panajachel.com is the most purely relative site representing Panajachel. In reality most of the sites whether they are www.atitlan.com or .net have information about Panajachel as well as the whole Atitlan region. Should they not be allowed to represent Panajachel? I think they have every right as www.panajachel.com should have to deliver information concerning the whole lake as well. Panajachel is the second most visited travel destination in Guatemala after Antigua and is the gateway to all Lake Atitlan has to offer. What is a link or external link really? It is added information that clearly points out that the link takes you to a page or site that is not in Panajachel thats why we call them link pages. Lets give people a little credit for diserning information. Non of my links are misleading or designed to compete with another site. I find stagering flaws in Wikivoyage and Wikipedia's content. I have read the most outlandish completely unstubstantiated articles that are completely off base. If my child would use your site as a reference soucre on a homework project she wouldn't be the straight a student she is. I have warned her to be extremely skepitcal as to what she reads on your sites. Elvis is alive in Panajachel did you know that? It is impossible for anyone at Wikipedia or Wiki Travel to pass judgement on our sites( we are small you have billionaire venture investors behind you). And beleive me I know because I have family that are in the same league as you. Anyone can post whatever they want. You guys might catch it sometimes or eventually but it is an an almost borders on a narcissistic arrogant and impossible task. After all do you have PHD's on every subject? I give you credit for an idea that sounds good on paper but really can be like a virus spreading disinformation. Beware of what you have created. I know this because I can see how you apparently try to be objective and rightous but you have lost control. I am aware that this is a learning process and I sincerly wish you find a way to control unscrupulous editors. Its clear especially on www.panajachel.com that the there are very few links links that or should I say not even come close to the number of links that www.atitlan.com or www.atitlan.net lead the navigator to that have absolutely nothing to do with Panajachel. I have no problem with that. I just don't like cruel people. Some of my links are to non profit organizations that are based around the lake. www.panajachel.com makes no profit from these links. www.panajachel.com did design some of these sites free off charge. Take a deep look at your own site and look at its flaws. I have lived in Guatemala for 22 years and have read articles that are outright lies. I know you don't approve and when and if you discover them will do the right thing but in many many cases they will go unoticed. You would have to be god to control it. It will never happen. I am dissapointed because I know I am a sincere person but some so called competitors think they are clever at discrediting www.panajachel.com which is very humble in its content. I have no problem with www.atitlan.com but the other.net comes close to sounding like a sociopath. You guys at Wiki might have created a monster thats out off your control. I hope you can think of a way to get a hold on it. I really do. But lets just face it, like spam are we ever really going to have it under wraps. I'm sure your aware of Steven Colberts remarks. Funny no doubt. Lets see you prove him wrong!

Best Regards

John Riddle

P.S. I'm not hiding behind any mask and to tell you the truth everything I wrote above is for you to learn from. I'm kicking but with my site with or without you. No offense intended. I actually wasn't surprised to see all the sites that concure with my thoughts.

Don't go the way of AOL.

—The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Panajachel (talk • contribs) Revision as of 06:21, 2007 November 13

(WT-en) John Riddle, thank you for your note here. I'm nobody special at Wikivoyage, but since you addressed your note to me, I'll write a reply.

Thank you for the information about www.panajachel.com and other web sites. I think that the subject of Panajachel web sites was settled a year ago, for this article. There is no web site that is a "primary source", i.e. run by the city government or tourist office. Thus there is no general external link in the article. See Project:External links for an explanation of why we don't want to put in links to web sites that aren't a primary source.

Wikivoyage is not the same thing as Wikipedia. They are run by completely different organisations (Internet Brands vs Wikimedia Foundation). They have different policies. All they have in common is free content, a collaborative editing process, and the same underlying software. And I agree with you that both have some really bad articles. I think they also have some helpful articles, and are getting better.

It's great that you have 22 years of experience in Panajachel. That's way, way more than most Wikivoyage editors have, including me. You don't say, but I'm guessing you are in the travel business in some way, or know people who are. I'd encourage everyone in the Panajachel travel business to read Project:Welcome, business owners (or the Spanish translation). If you are willing to put your expertise into freely-available improvements on Wikivoyage itself, we'd love to have you. For instance, wouldn't it be cool if restaurant and hotel managers improved the Panajachel article, and then printed it on paper for guests to take with them? It might be a service that would draw guests, and might be cheaper than writing their own tourist guide.

Thank you for your contributions, and best regards. (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt 02:59, 15 November 2007 (EST)