User talk:(WT-en) Ascott

Welcome to Wikivoyage! Unfortunately, what you want to do is not allowed here. See http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Accommodation_listings Specifically:

"Wikivoyage is neither an apartment-finder service nor a real estate listing service, so in general real estate and rental agency listings are not allowed."

In addition, you are also violating the guideline against listing the nearest attractions and touting. In other words, you are trying to use this guide as a place to advertise your apartments, rather than from a motivation of informing and helping travelers. Therefore, all of your contributions probably have to be reverted, and I will go about doing that. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 03:09, 25 November 2010 (EST)

Jakarta accommodation listings

Please put your serviced apartment listings into the Sleep section of the geographically appropriate District of Jakarta article and not into the main Jakarta article. If the main article was to contain detailed accommodation listings it would become overbearing. For this reason the main article just has a summary of the Budget, Mid-range and Splurge categories without any actual listings. Your 3 listings should be placed into the Sleep section of the appropriate Budget, Mid-range and Splurge sub-section of the appropriate district of Jakarta

ie Somerset Berlian Jakarta appears to be in Jakarta Pusat so put it into the Sleep section of Central Jakarta.

Please use the format US$XX.XX for USDS prices. Please use +62 21 XXXX XXXX to display a phone number, not (62-21) XXXX XXXX as indicated in the edited versions below. I have edited your listings to de-tout the style. Please see Project:Manual of style for some guidelines in listing content, especially in regard to listing detail that may appear to be touting or to be written in a promotional style. I suggest you may like to consider the use of the edited versions below in the appropriate districts. Also be careful not to add or delete spaces before the url or other fields as the information may not display correctly, that is why the URL's were previously missing from several of the listings. Thank you for your contribution. (WT-en) felix 12:19, 25 November 2010 (EST)

• <sleep name="Citadines Quartier Jakarta" alt=" " address="Jalan KH. Wahid Hasyim No.70" directions="" phone="+62 21 2993 3333" email="enquiry.jakarta@the-ascott.com" fax="+62 21 2993 3332" checkin="" checkout="" price="Daily rates starts from US$75" url="http://www.citadines.com/indonesia/jakarta/citadines_jakarta_quartier.html">Offers spacious city apartments ranging in size from studio to two-bedroom apartments. Services and facilities are designed for international travellers with chic living spaces that may double up as a home office. A fully-equipped kitchen, separate living room and broadband internet access is provided in each apartment. A flexible service menu is also available for travellers.</sleep>

• <sleep name=" Somerset Grand Citra Jakarta" alt="" address="Jalan Prof Dr Satrio Kav 1" directions="" phone="+62 21 2995 6888" email="enquiry.jakarta@the-ascott.com" fax="+62 21 522 3737" checkin="" checkout="" price="Daily rates starts from US$110" url="http://www.somerset.com/en/indonesia/jakarta/somerset_grand_citra.html">Close to business areas, shopping centres and a wide variety of dining and entertainment. 163 comfortable fully furnished apartments. Each apartment is self-contained with a fully-equipped kitchen, broadband internet access and contemporary neo-classical style decor.</sleep>

• <sleep name="Somerset Berlian Jakarta" alt="" address="Jalan Permata Berlian V" directions="Within the Permata Hijau residential district" phone="+62 21 5366 8888" email="enquiry.jakarta@the-ascott.com" fax="+62 21 5366 7788" checkin="" checkout="" price="Daily rates starts from US$160" url="http://www.somerset.com/indonesia/jakarta/somerset_berlian.html">Surrounded by lush greenery and landscaped gardens. Only 15mins from city centre. Two to three bedroom layouts, each with a contemporary decor and provided with a fully-equipped modern kitchen, home entertainment system and broadband Internet access. Convenient central location</sleep>

• <sleep name="Ascott Jakarta" alt="" address="Jalan Kebon Kacang Raya No 2" directions="" phone="+62 21 391 6868" email="enquiry.jakarta@the-ascott.com" fax="+62 21 391 3368" checkin="" checkout="" price="Daily rates starts from US$120" url=" http://www.the-ascott.com/en/indonesia/jakarta/ascott_jakarta.html">Luxury apartments have a modern Balinese style decor with marble flooring. 198 apartments are available ranging from studios to three-bedroom layouts. Broadband internet access is available in the apartments.</sleep>

--- (WT-en) felix 12:21, 25 November 2010 (EST)

Felix: Please read the following: http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Accommodation_listings#Rental_listings

Specifically, look at this:

Wikivoyage is neither an apartment-finder service nor a real estate listing service, so in general real estate and rental agency listings are not allowed. The only exception to this rule is for locations where rental properties are a common form of travel accommodation and the following requirements are met:

  1. Consensus must be achieved on the article's talk page that rental listings should be allowed. When trying to build consensus provide some evidence that rental properties are commonly used by travelers to the destination and that their addition will improve the article. Please do not argue the merits of any particular company, but instead focus on the value of such accommodation for travelers to the destination city/region. 

My observation is that Ascott is simply in violation of these guidelines, and that Ascott's apartment rental ads should be deleted, not edited, and not put in any article on any location.

If we really want to go through the trouble of working the Ascott to make the apartment listings useful, the following guideline would apply, once such a consensus was reached:

  2. If consensus is achieved, rental agency listings must be placed into a separate sub-section of the article's "Sleep" section.

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:11, 25 November 2010 (EST)

Ascott appear to be offering a normal short term/long term optioned serviced apartment accommodation to travellers. As such, it does not appear to be outside normal WT accom listing guidelines. They offer an address that is at the respective accommodation site, there is on-site management and reception provided, stays of 1 day/night+ are offered and a fully serviced accommodation facility is offered. There are many such serviced apartment offerings similarly structured at locations in other countries and this seems no different to those. Ascott does not appear to be presenting a variation to "rental properties (serviced apartments, that) are commonly used by travelers to the (Jakarta) destination" - as suggested by Ikan Kekek. They not do they appear to be offering a rental option only, rather a short-term, medium-term stay option. Unless (WT-en) Ikan Kekek can offer a more definite and detailed reason why these properties do not comply with WT guidelines I do not see any reason these serviced apartments should not be listed as they offer visitors to Jakarta an alternative to upmarket full service hotels. It would be appropriate for Ascott to confirm that they are offering a short term traveller/visitor service providing an apartment with daily housekeeping service available, reception services available, a readily accessable management contact point and a key pick up and drop off facility. I did a 'test' booking for one night and 4 nights and there did not appear to be any booking policy conflict with a short term fully serviced stay at Somerset Grand Citra Jakarta. All their properties appear to be advertised as offering short stay bookings. (WT-en) felix 04:09, 26 November 2010 (EST)

Felix: According to http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Accommodation_listings#Rental_listings you must discuss this in the "Talk" page for each location:

1. Consensus must be achieved on the article's talk page that rental listings should be allowed. When trying to build consensus provide some evidence that rental properties are commonly used by travelers to the destination and that their addition will improve the article. Please do not argue the merits of any particular company, but instead focus on the value of such accommodation for travelers to the destination city/region.
2. If consensus is achieved, rental agency listings must be placed into a separate sub-section of the article's "Sleep" section.

I don't see any policy statement specifically about serviced apartments at that link. Perhaps you're right that they should be allowed by default, like hotel listings, if available short term, but that apparently is not current Wikivoyage policy. I don't know the ins and outs of how policy is changed, site-wide, but perhaps you'd like to propose a change through the appropriate decision-making mechanism. Until then, though, I don't see how Ascott's listings, even if no longer touty, can remain, without a separate consensus on the "Talk" page of each location. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 22:15, 26 November 2010 (EST)

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek, I think you are misunderstanding Project:Accommodation_listings#Rental_listings, these Ascott listings appear to me to just be regular accomodation listings for a facility that provides accommodation services by the night and offers a "daily rate" and minimum 1 night bookings/occupancy. Hence it is not presenting or promoting a "real estate and rental agency listing". If however they do also offer longer term services (which I imagine they do) they are not directly promoting them in the listings at WT, so I can see no reason they should not list in the appropriate Jakarta district articles or would need to have a separate section established. I think if you read Project:Accommodation_listings#Rental_listings again you will note that it refers to "'real estate and rental agency listings" and these listings do not appear to be either a listing by a "real estate agent" or a "rental agency". Nor do not see that any changes need to be made to WT policy in that regard. It seems to work quite well in the current policy form. It is up to Ascott to relist if they wish and I have suggested an edited version above that is possibly more suitable than the original content. The only reason I deleted those listings is because they had been incorrecttly placed in the main Jakarta article rather than in the district article appropriate to the respective accommodation venues being listed (WT-en) felix 13:01, 28 November 2010 (EST)

I respectfully disagree with your interpretation but will respect it in the case of Jakarta district articles. I believe some other users will agree with my interpretation, though. The ambiguity should be addressed in some way. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 21:36, 28 November 2010 (EST)

Disagree if you wish, I have not noticed a lot of input from Ascott on this anyway, maybe they have lost interest. If you feel strongly about this "ambiguity" then I suggest you raise it at Project:Travellers' pub or seek out one of the administrators with an interest in the Indonesian articles. I am not going to put these listings into the district articles, I think that is up to the original contributor (Ascott) to do that. I have only recommended some changes that I hope make the respective listings more WT appropriate should they wish to place them into appropriate Jakarta district articles. I stand by my assertion these listings appear to be normal and acceptable accomodation provider details. I only deleted them as they were in the wrong article and I see nothing worse in their original content than I see all over WT everyday. I have provided edit recommendations out of goodwill only. If Ascott does not wish to follow those recommendations they may find the listings are either edited with some vigour by another WT editor or deleted. I also note that Ascott has been quite transparent about who they are. Although not declaring their 'promotional' interest as a service provider I think the use of the user name Ascott leaves little ambiguity in the matter. I cannot find anything further to contribute to this discussion that would be useful and I encourage Ascott to review their previous content and make a useful and appropriate contribution to the Sleep sections of the district articles concerned. Ikan Kekek, please do raise you concerns on this matter with one of the WT admins or at Project:Travellers' pub as I am sure your intentions here are driven by good will and you seem to be somewhat unconvinced by my assertions on the matter. If you find that your standpoint endures the scrutiny of others then do not hesitate to let me know as I am always happy to be corrected if I am on the wrong track. (WT-en) felix 06:08, 29 November 2010 (EST)

Ascott seems to have regained interest in listing his properties. If you note the histories of the articles in which he's doing this, as well as the "Talk" page of the Perth/City article (http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Talk:Perth/City), you'll see that other users appear to agree with my reading on the need for a consensus on listing apartments in articles, and apparently not your reading on agencies that rent short-term not being "real estate and rental agencies." I don't really care one way or the other about the policy as such, but in any case, "Talk" pages for articles are about achieving consensus, and I am guessing that those who created the policy we're discussing felt it was best to allow flexibility for local conditions, but regarded the listing of apartments as exceptional.

I'll say for my part that I am very glad I was able to rent an apartment in London this past summer, but that the most I would possibly countenance is to mention the name of the agency, not to advertise the properties they set up rentals for. People can go to their website to see what's available. Though to be fair, the agency I used does not own the properties, whereas I believe Ascott's does. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 06:04, 2 December 2010 (EST)

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek By a strange fluke of co-incidence I was just looking at the Perth article and noticed the apartment issue there. I might add that Perth is not Jakarta but your point is not missed. My personal view on it is that Ascott (in the case of the Jakarta articles) does not appear to be presenting apartments for rent, rather it is a hotel alternative, available by the night, similar to a hotel. As you mention Perth Australia perhaps I might mention http://www.medina.com.au/ as an example of a long running enterprise offering an "apartment hotel" product.

Basically it is a hotel stay but without added on service embellishments. They just focus on the room rather than the foyer and restaurants, conciege services and similar, yet still have 24 hour reception, housekeeping and the other basics of a 'hotel'. The short term "apartment" market is quite different, usually privately owned, individual apartments with wildly differing stylistic themes and standards. These are often let through 'agents' or apartment services, booked by phone and internet and sometimes the only direct interaction with the agency is a key drop, if any at all. My belief is that the intent of the WT policy is to qualify those key-drop/rental-management agency enterprises as "rental listings". The hotel apartments such as Medina in Australia or Ascott in Jakarta seem to be offering high-end but stripped down 'hotel' style accommodation services. They 'differentiate' their product by calling them "apartments' to establish a difference from a 4 or 5 star hotel and normally have some basic life support facilities such as a galley kitchen or even a full kitchen, and sometimes a washing machine or other appliances that can be very useful to a traveller.

Regarding the properties under consideration in Perth I did not dwell to examine their individual descriptions do I will not comment on them. I have used Medina in Australia myself and I was quite enthusiastic about the product. They offer good quality accommodation without the need to pay for bellboys in fez's buzzing about the doorways trying to remember my name. I have stayed in similar accommodations and received better service than in a large hotel simply because the service is minimalist, uncluttered and focussed on basics. I assume Ascott are offering something similar.

As to apartment and rental listings I think they are different and need to be listed separately as they are not a 'hotel' style product. I have also used such services to rent villas in Italy and apartments in European cities, they are a quite different thing, quite anonymous and you may only see a person when picking up or returning a key, if at all. You will have no argument from me that such listings need scrutiny as to their appropriateness to the destination and listing in an article and I consider them to be an entirely different product to that being discussed above. As Ascott seem to be rather slow in putting these jakarta listings into the appropriate districts I do not see that we have much to reach consensus upon even it it was appropriate to do so.

So Ascott what do you want to do with your Jakarta listings? I think they are fine to put in to the appropriate districts as long as you do not re-tout them again and also confirm (here) that Ascott are offering a stay by night full service (housekeeping/reception/security) hotel style product. If however it is an apartment rental that you wish to list then you will certainly need to raise each listing on the appropriate Jakarta district page and seek a "consensus" on the appropriateness of such a service to that district and also the appropriateness of your product to serve the needs of a traveller.

I think we would all like some clarification on this otherwise our interest in assisting you with this may tend to evaporate as time goes by. (WT-en) felix 07:26, 2 December 2010 (EST)

Felix: You make points that strike me as very valid. Let's see if Ascott ever engages with us in addressing the issues you bring up or/and producing entries that are phrased somewhat different from advertising copy. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 18:17, 2 December 2010 (EST)

Sorry about the slow response on our end. We regret that our limited knowledge on the functionalities of this site has caused you unnecessary trouble. It is correct that we offer short-stay accommodation, just like a hotel would. Therefore, as was pointed out, we provide an alternative to hotels for travellers. We will strive to be more conscientious with the content that we share such that they do not come across as "tout-y". Thank you all for your concern and your continued support in providing accurate information to benefit travellers. Ascott 1 January 2011

Apartment listings

Others have raised this point above, but if your listings are indeed apartments then please see Wikivoyage's guidelines on rental listings. If they are not, please also see Wikivoyage's guidelines for hotel marketers which has some guidance about writing non-promotional descriptions. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 21:52, 29 November 2010 (EST)

Ascott many attempts have been made to draw your attention to Wikivoyage policies. It appears that either you are either ignoring those appeals to you or not paying attention to their content. You are continuing to place content into articles that is in clear breach of Wikivoyage content guidelines. It is highly likely any of us will continue to assist you if you do not start paying attention to at least the basic guidelines available to you at Project:Manual of style and Project:Accommodation listings. Indeed it is quite likely that your future contributions may be immediately reverted unless you at least try to make some effort. Please understand that your listings are containing an excessive amount of information that is of a 'promotional' nature and of very little value to a traveller. Please just stick to the facts when placing content into an article and ensure that is containing information that is only in the interests of the traveller rather than to seek a promotional opportunity for your employers. Please also ensure you follow the appropriate formatting for the article in regard to telephone numbers, address details, currency and times. (WT-en) felix 06:39, 10 December 2010 (EST)

Thank you for your concern and assistance over this issue. We have every intention of keeping to the guidelines that has been set out on WikiTravel. We regret that our content have caused disagreement here and we will review them to make certain that they conform to the standards. We believe that our accommodation offerings provide travellers with an alternative to hotels that may better suit the needs of some travellers. Indeed, we too provide short stay options for travellers. Those that are in larger groups may even find options in larger layouts that can cater to occupancy levels of up to 8 people (our 4-bedroom apartments). Though the facilities and amenities offered may vary between hotels and serviced apartments, our business is essentially the same. Ascott 1 January 2011

Please can someone block this person

Despite many different contributors both asking 'Ascott' not to spam pages, and removing the spam, they continue. This includes revert constructive edits which have only sought to remove this spam and hence improve Wikivoyage. It seems quite clear that 'Ascott' has no interest in improving Wikivoyage and in ignoring the both the guidelines of Wikivoyage and the requests of many contributors. Given the long history of such action the only option now is surely blocking.

Please stop touting

Ascott, you have been warned before about touting, yet you continue to post entries that include the following kinds of text:

"The residence enjoys the ultimate convenience of location being surrounded by entertainment, shopping and business centres. With 270 fully-furnished serviced apartments, ranging from one-bedroom deluxe to three-bedroom executive, travellers will be spoilt with choices. Work from home with the convenience of broadband internet access, a private IDD telephone with voicemail facility and business support services."

"The convenience of location makes the residence ideal for business or leisure travel. Indulge in the choice of 199 well-appointed apartments ranging from designer studios to luxury penthouses."

I mean, quite aside from the fact that you are using the selling imperative voice and superlatives like "ultimate convenience" and "ideal," "well-appointed" is actually cited in Project:Words to avoid.

We really need for you to stop posting touty entries that require us to waste our time editing or deleting them. If you persist, it will be necessary to block your account, as an unsigned user urged us to do above.

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 23:35, 3 January 2012 (EST)

Another objectionable thing that I see you're doing is moving your properties to first on the list, instead of alphabetical. This will not be tolerated. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 23:54, 3 January 2012 (EST)

Your account has been blocked for one day for spam/touting. This action is needed to give volunteer editors the time to revert or edit your numerous edits. When you come back, please remember not to sell the location of your properties and not to tout. Just describe in a clear way what the accommodations are like, without using superlatives. Also, I notice that you are no longer listing rates, and I will warn you that failure to list rates is also likely to cause all your listings to be deleted. Please cooperate. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:35, 4 January 2012 (EST)

Dear editors, our apologies on the errant entries that seem like we are touting. This is not our intention and we will re-look our content to ensure that they do not contain superlatives, especially those contained in your Words to Avoid list. We were unaware that the listings are by alphabetical order and will bear this in mind when updating. With regards to the listing of rates, the reason why we have removed it is because our daily rates may vary and there is also a large range depending on the type of apartment selected. Our serviced residences is just like a hotel (with services and amenities) for travellers seeking accommodation, but they have the option of going from studios to 3-bedroom layouts to meet their travel needs. Do you suggest we place the wide price range, or perhaps just the price for the studio (which is comparable to hotel rooms)? We will appreciate your kind advice. Thank you. Ascott 5 January 2012

I think a range from lowest to highest is fine. No-one expects you to list rates for half a page, but travelers need to have some idea of what they can expect to spend. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 21:02, 4 January 2012 (EST)

I would encourage you to read, and then re-read, Wikivoyage's guidelines for marketers (which has already been mentioned numerous times above). Having reviewed the last several entries you've added, you're clearly marketing, and thus I'm not sure that Wikivoyage is an appropriate venue for you. Ikan is being quite patient, but as that guideline makes clear, Wikivoyage should not be used for marketing purposes. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 21:06, 4 January 2012 (EST)

I also vigorously encourage you to read, and then re-read, and ensure all the people representing your organisation who are editing here also read, Wikivoyage's guidelines for marketers (which has already been mentioned numerous times above), and read the MoS and the guidance articles linked in it. Please also pay particular attention to formatting and style guidelines. Had you perhaps not yet noticed in all the edits and the numerous time consuming corrections to your many edits, that a telephone number is formatted +countrycode space areacode space number, ie +1 202 1234-5678. Also please stop listing out the local attractions and contents of a cities CBD, for example, lets just assume that a CBD includes offices, and that if the hotel is situated in the CBD that it is 'nearby' to business areas, otherwise it would not be a CBD would it. Any more content using the selling imperative voice and superlatives of any kind will be deleted without further comment or explanation. -- (WT-en) felix 21:29, 5 January 2012 (EST)

Block

Hi Ascott! I blocked you for two hours. Reason is the amount of edits you do for the citadines chain. We only accept one listing per chain per article and also your language is too touty. I didn't revert your entry in Cannes because this one is actually detouting. Please stop to add huge amounts of entries. Quality not quantity! (WT-en) Jc8136 04:49, 22 March 2012 (EDT)