Talk:Taiwan/Archive 2003-2010

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There needs to be a clarification that visiting the Republic of China is not visiting the People's Republic of China. I led a tour

I would like to punge this page. First I want to move the CIA Factbook info into minor link, and start edit about Taiwan.

There's a Taibei, Tainan, Taizhong, Taidong, but no Taixi - how come? -(WT-en) phma 06:07, 28 Dec 2003 (PST)

Hi there: Actually we do have a tiny town called Taixi in Yuinlin county. Taixi is famous by its oyster.

A real answer: most of the major population centers are located on the western plains, to the east of which are fairly daunting mountainous areas unsuitable for habitation. Thus, were a real Tai-hsi to exist, it'd be somewhere in the Taiwan Strait :) . 4.250.51.18 10:09, 28 Nov 2004 (EST)

Taiwanese isn't the mother tongue of 70% of Taiwanese people I don't know what the source is for this but it's wrong. Most people speak Mandarin. This is very unhelpful as it is not really a hinderance to have no knowledge of the Taiwanese language in Taiwan. Most young people no very, very little if any Taiwanese and the older people know Taiwanese but rarely use it excluding it's incorporation into their daily Mandarin speak (particuarly when swearing). I find this 70% claim to be completely crazy.

Plunge forward! Wikipedia states that 70-80% of the people on Taiwan speak Taiwanese to at least some extent. (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:02, 8 November 2007 (EST)

Yes and "to at least some extent" is very different to what the article originally said. To at least some extent sugests a single word would be enough. The article is better now than it was, however, more people don't speak Taiwanese than Mandarin in the South. It would be much, much more difficult trying to get around Southern Taiwan speaking Taiwanese than speaking Mandarin. Although, incorporating some Taiwanese into your Mandarin could amuse Southern locals but probably wouldn't be too advantageous. Taiwanese youth speak very, very little Taiwanese. Some older teachers will even speak some Taiwanese to each other inorder to talk without students understanding. Taiwanese youth can speak more English than Taiwanese except for bad language.

I'm not sure where you live in Taiwan, but I'm in Taipei right now and it seems almost everyone speaks Taiwanese. Do you have any solid evidence to the contrary?

Yes, this is nonsense, most people in the South speak Taiwanese. Of course everyone has fluency in Mandarin which they will use if there is anyone in the conversation that doesn't speak Taiwanese, and also in situations where the Taiwanese used is mutually incomprehensible (there's no particular standard).

Several links have one spelling of a city name visible (e.g. Gaoxiong) and point to another spelling (e.g. Kaohsiung). Unless the variant spelling conflicts with something else, this should be handled with redirects, but I don't know which spelling is correct. Someone who does, please fix it. -(WT-en) phma 06:49, 4 Mar 2004 (EST) Hi there: thanks your suggestion, I hope I cam do my best to correct spelling.

+++ Hi. These variant spellings are not "incorrect" but reflect different phonetic representations in latin letter for the same sound in Chinese. 'Gaoxiong' is a spelling from pinyin, and 'Kaohsiung' is from the Wade-Giles system. The Taiwanese government also has their own system, which is similar to Wade-Giles. However, you'll notice that many street signs in Taiwan also have inconsistent spelling. Since other wiki-editors will probably be more familiar with one or the other system, I suggest just putting up a note about it. Check out the conversion tables available online.

+++

Yes, and the worst thing about it is that, depending which party gets into power, they promote the romanizer that they favor and begin reverting the changes the last party made. I think that the KMT support the international flavor of Pinyin.

Actually, this is quite a big issue as it is a major point of confusion for foreigners in Taiwan. Seeing as pinyin, wade giles AND the new 'Taiwanese only' one are all promoted by various government departments, administrations and transport companies, should we be simply replicating the problem? Are there any wiki standards for Mandarin romanization published anywhere in wikimedia? Should Taiwan be treated differently to mainland China? Should we be providing all the commonly used ones, in which case we would need to research each one (urgh, nightmare, but maybe necessary?)? Personally, and it's unlikely to be acceptable, I'd just say that, within an article, pinyin the lot and have done with it, seeing as pinyin is the only internationally accepted standard.User:(WT-en) Caesartg

Changed the information about politics. First of all, highly polarized needs to be placed in context. People scream about politics, but the place is not on the verge of civil war. Also, there isn't really much disagreement on Taiwan over who is Taiwanese, the disagreement is really over what it means to be Taiwanese.

24.206.108.132 03:02, 16 Jun 2004 (EDT)

Upgrade to Guide Status

From what I can see, the amount of information in this article is fairly comprehensive. Perhaps we should consider upgrading from "usable" to "guide". What are your takes on this?

Thanx for the guide.

Dear friend,

thanx for all the information that you have given here. It was really useful to me when i decided to go to taipei on business duty.

Ferries to and from Taiwan

I'm currently planning a trip to Taiwan, and I was wondering if anyone could provide information on ferries to and from Taiwan? In particular, I'm interested in taking a ferry from either Hong Kong, Macau, or mainland China (I'm guessing the latter is unlikely). I've trawled across the web to no avail looking for this information (and even peeked into some guidebooks), so any help would really be appreciated on this.

The only ferries I know of come into Keelung Harbor from Japan. I believe it passes through Yokosuka (or was it Yokohama?), and Okinawa before arriving in Taiwan. There are also ferries to and from the outlying islands of Kinmen and Matsu, which are mostly used by military personnel. --(WT-en) Loren 23:31, 19 May 2005 (EDT)

As far as I know, there are no ferries from the Chinese side of the strait to Taiwan. I only know the one Loren mentioned. However, the flight is only just over one hour, and competition keeps the price within reason. Hope you enjoy your stay in Taiwan.

There used to be a ferry between Kaohsiung and Macau, but it ceased operations sometime around 1994. The ferry was known as the Macmosa. Apparently the route was shut down and the ship was sold. 59.121.190.226 02:41, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

The ferry from Kinmen to Xiamen might be open to foreigners now. Anyone with more info please post. (WT-en) Taiwanferry 07:51, 1 September 2008 (EDT)

Vandalism alert

Quite a large chunk removed some time ago:

Good catch! I've restored the missing content. I doubt it was vandalism though, more probably just incompetent editing... (WT-en) Jpatokal 10:46, 28 Nov 2004 (EST)

5.6 By scooter or motorcycle

Hi, I've just added a little to this section and tidied it slightly, as it seemed like a patchwork of different contributors had been made.

Also, I deleted the sentence "Very famous for biking is the Gorge at Taroko National Park." which was used in the following context - "Many foreigners swear by their 125cc Wild Wolf motorcycles, and a trip around the island on a motorcycle can be a great way to see the island up close.Very famous for biking is the Gorge at Taroko National Park." I agree that this is fun, and I've done this on a 125cc scooter, albeit carefully. It's just that the Gorge, being windy, full of tunnels and chocablock with falling rocks after a monsoon is mainly famous for accidents and this is the first I've heard of it being famous for biking (I'm not saying it isn't, but not to my knowledge). If you think it should be put back in, by all means. It's just that a lot of foreigners end up having accidents on scooters and motorbikes, especially those who come for short holidays. Even though I drove a scooter with much more care and attention than if I were in the UK, I still had plenty of hairy moments in the 4 months that I rode one. User:(WT-en) Caesartg

Maybe you could leave in the information, but also include the additional facts that you have given above. Taroka is a wonderful place to explore, and a bike cetainly gives one the independance to do so freely. However, as you say, the hairpin bends, tunnels and amount of traffic passing through at weekends does add a certain amount of danger to using a bike there. However, I certainly have no problem with you deleting the disputed sentence. Anon 19 Dec 05

By Bicycle

Please help. Many places in the wiki have information on getting around also by bicycle. This is very helpful in deciding where to go. What specifically is useful in this regard is info on

general conditions for cycling (NOT scaremongering - many non-cyclists or casual cyclists might say things like "too dangerous, don't do it" - I once read such a description about Naples after I cycled there for a few days - the description was rubbish)

info on hiring bicycles - for example in Beijing its easy and cheap to hire from many places, many hotels etc, in San Fancisco its quite expensive to hire and there aren't so many places to hire one from - its useful to know that

info on how prevalent bicycle theft is - for example in Turku, Finland its very safe and there is little bicycle theft but in the Netherlands its not and you are advised not to expect a decent bike to not get stolen

info on laws/restrictions and whether they are upheld. For example information on the web tells me that bikes in Beijing must have registration plates but the reality is very different because its not enforced. Information on spain is that cycle helmets are compulsory - I have yet to see whether it is enforced.

I put this initially here because I was looking for the info trying to decide whether to go here but its so important I will look for somewhere near the home page to post it also to bring the need for this info to people's attention.

Thanks

andy

ROC is not the Official name of Taiwan

The ROC is the administrative authority of Taiwan it is name of the occuptional government on Taiwan as defined in the Laws of War and occupation of States. The ROC flag is not the flag of Taiwan it is the flag of the occuptional government on Taiwan as defined in the Laws of War and occupation of States. TR

We don't use official names; We use the most common English name. -- (WT-en) Colin 02:14, 4 January 2007 (EST)

The Republic of China is not the most common English name nor the Official name of Taiwan. The information on this page is factually incorrect.

No, factually the Republic of China has control over the island of Taiwan, and that's all that matters for the traveler. (I've clarified the distinction a bit.) Debates over who should control the island belong on Wikipedia, not there. (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:15, 7 January 2007 (EST)

== No one is denying that the ROC in exile currently occupies Taiwan. If you don't want to have any political perspectives on this page then remove them all. WIKI travel is not about perpetuating a fantasy to pacify one editor. Base the information on fact or get off the page. Removing warnings about riding a motor cycle on Taiwan is not only irresponsible but dangerous.

Riding a motorcycle is dangerous anywhere. (WT-en) Jpatokal 09:45, 8 January 2007 (EST)

Similarly removing warnings about non ROC nationals being detained and deported for engaging in unauthorised activities is also irresponsible.

Every country in the world reserves (and uses) the right to deport non-nationals who break laws. (WT-en) Jpatokal 09:45, 8 January 2007 (EST)

If you don’t like the way the ROC treats minorities on Taiwan protest to the ROC government.

Then please protest to the ROC government, not Wikivoyage. (WT-en) Jpatokal 09:45, 8 January 2007 (EST)

Refusing to inform visitors of the situation and letting them find out the hard way will only further discredit WikiTravel.

So what did you actually do? (WT-en) Jpatokal 09:45, 8 January 2007 (EST)

I'll have to agree with Jpatokal, could you tell me ONE COUNTRY that WONT deport you for breaking the law? I mean that is a given. I can tell that some of these lines are ridiculous and put in purely to taint the image of Taiwan. If Wikivoyage would like to be respected seriously, it has to have its users stop putting in obvious slants. People aren't THAT dim to not see what some of the people are trying to do here. --203.203.38.240 23:14, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

Tai Power coordinates

Perhaps add under "how to get lost" something about 電線桿、箱座標定位 Orienting with utility pole and box coordinates. URL is jidanni.org/geo/taipower/index.html --(WT-en) Jidanni 2007-01-08

gay life in Taiwan

As a American born from Taiwanese parents, I sometimes visit my family members living in Taiwan. During my visit, I remember watching a news report in Taiwan about a massive gay parade in Taiwan (I think it is like one to two years ago). Compared to U.S., Taiwan is quite liberal when it comes to gay rights. Taiwan has strong anti-discrimination laws towards homosexuality like Japan, but same-sex marriages and unions aren't recognized in Taiwan yet, although the government is putting this into consideration. Although I'm not gay myself, I'm trying to study different cultural attitudes towards homosexuality and I believe many East Asian countries may be more tolerant towards gays. When it comes to comparing to Thailand, I would say Taiwan is quite open when it comes to homosexuality. I would recommend reading this article here, Taiwan may be considered be a good gay tourist destination. --(WT-en) Dark Paladin X 22:42, 1 January 2009 (EST)

Map and regions

I have just added a WT region map for Taiwan and the accompanying regionlist table. I do not know Taiwan and there are bound to be some improvements that can be made. Anyone who knows the island well, please do help out here. In particular:

The region descriptions in the table are lame but the best I could manage without knowing the desitnations - please help improve them.
I am not confident about the road network as the PD sources I found are not very good and I would imagine road infrastructure in Taiwan has changed fast in recent years. Please comment here if I have made major mistakes or ommisions concerning roads. I will not add route markers until the road situation is clearer.*[I'm a Taiwan-based guide] Map not bad, main problem is the east-west cross-island roads running east of Kaohsiung, and the one running west of Hualien do not, and never have existed.
It is very hard to figure out which are the major rivers (cannot put them all on as it will clutter the map too much). If I have chosen the wrong rivers, please let me know here.
All the nine linked cities (plus a couple more) and the eight other destinations are on the map. Please suggest other possible destinations that should be added. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:27, 20 November 2009 (EST)

The road mapping on the CIA maps is indeed pretty poor, unfortunately, and that has influenced the quality of WT's maps a bit. Lately, I've been checking OSM & other online mapping services to get an idea of which of the roads on the CIA map are really the more important.

If you want to add some route shields for the Taiwan National Highways, I found an SVG here. For some annoying reason, Wikipedians always create the number on route shields with a path, so you'll have to replace it with text to get a modifiable SVG version—the Blue Highway font almost always works best.

I figured out the reason why they always path text—it's to keep the text display uniform regardless of the resolution display on SVG files. Yet another reason why WP's decision to use SVGs in-article was totally boneheaded... IMO it's their worst, even beyond naming the Sears Tower article "Willis" Tower, and publishing the "answers" to Rorschach ink blot tests... --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 17:20, 20 November 2009 (EST)

Rail lines would be useful for Taiwan. I wouldn't bother to differentiate between them, but you could just show where trains do go by tracing this basic map. As for how to display rail lines, Wikivoyage_talk:How_to_draw_a_map#Railroads is recommended reading. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 10:48, 20 November 2009 (EST)

Good point about rail-lines. From the (wonderfully typical, I must say:=) ) discussion about rail-lines, it seems (but was not 100% clear) that dashed lines won the day for regional maps and not the dreaded hairy version? I will have a look at those route shields - I was all ready to draw my own. On the roads, OSM was helpful with some clarifications and additions, but I am still not confident I am that close to being accurate. We need a member who is knowledgeable about Taiwan. Many thanks Peter as usual. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 11:20, 20 November 2009 (EST)

I think history leans towards the white/black dashed version, but ultimately the map will be the best decision maker. If the map is going to have a ton of rail (like Ukraine or Russia), then the white/black dashed lines are probably going to be overbearing. For your Taiwan map, though, I think it will look just fine. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 11:53, 20 November 2009 (EST)

Is there a guideline on airports? I only added Tapei and Kaohsiung as I knew about those. But after checking, Taiwan seems to have at least 15 airports. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 11:57, 20 November 2009 (EST)

Railway lines added. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 09:46, 27 November 2009 (EST)

Central Taiwan has the wrong color on the map. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 11:37, 20 June 2010 (EDT)