File talk:Baltimore pennstation banner.jpg

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VfD[edit]

This is a fair-use image used as a banner for Baltimore/Midtown; fair-use because it includes a statue commissioned in 2004, and the US does not extend freedom of panorama to statues.

I believe this is a problematic justification for fair use: the Male/Female statue is not even mentioned in the article (I had to head over to Wikipedia to find out anything about it), and Penn Station has only a few sentences at the very bottom of the article. I am sure that there are pictures of several other places that could be used for a banner, as the very well-written article tells us about. Delete because of the fair-use issue. Rschen7754 03:48, 30 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have an alternative banner to suggest? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:53, 30 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
File:Baltimore Washington Monument.jpg and File:Ext-Night.jpg could be adapted; there may be others, but I'm not familiar with what exactly Midtown is in Baltimore, having never been there. --Rschen7754 04:05, 30 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, as the non-free-use rationale does not depend on the artwork being specifically discussed in the article. It suffices that the image was deemed an important view of Baltimore. Powers (talk) 01:49, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • I can't even tell that the statue in the image is an important view of Midtown Baltimore; I certainly don't get that impression from reading the article. --Rschen7754 04:53, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • It's a view of the train station, and thus an important view per se. And my feeling is, either thrash out this policy matter in Wikivoyage talk:Non-free content or admit that you're trying to just impose your opinion on what can't be in a pagebanner on any page. I'm not saying your point of view is wrong or that I might not support it (I've been arguing points on both sides to try to draw out discussion and figure out where I ultimately come down). What I'm saying is that nominating this pagebanner for deletion while the entire topic of whether including non-free content in a pagebanner is per se a violation of Wikimedia Foundation rules and different as a matter of policy from including a photo other than a pagebanner of non-free content in any article is at least a bit questionable. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:50, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • Actually, neither: we can't delete pages without consensus. I am simply presenting this matter for wider input, in a specific case. (Furthermore, policy cannot prescribe what should be done with every VFD nomination, nor should it; we cannot predict every scenario that will happen on Wikivoyage, and if we could, then we might as well get rid of this page and go to just speedy deletions entirely). --Rschen7754 05:55, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • You're incorrect. Pages nominated for deletion are guilty unless proven innocent (see the top of this page). So unless there is a consensus to keep this page, it will be deleted. And I'm not even arguing for it to be kept, myself, but I see this resort to Vfd as a really questionable way to engage in policy discussions. If your policy position wins, any pagebanner that includes non-free content not covered under freedom of panorama will and should be deleted. But until then, what you are doing is trying to force the deletion of a file that violates a policy you would like to enforce globally, in the almost certain absence of a consensus in favor of keeping it. And for further context, interested readers should look at the thread in Wikivoyage talk:Non-free content. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:07, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
            • I don't think that is how VFD should work, but even so, my word is not the final say in the deletion: the community could choose to completely disagree with me, and has two weeks to raise objections, which it could easily do if that is where the consensus actually lies. --Rschen7754 06:19, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • And why is a train station so important, anyway? If this was Grand Central Terminal or Union Station, I could see that, but here? This is an incredibly subjective measure. --Rschen7754 06:23, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Note that I have not actually made an affirmative statement that we should keep this file, and I don't think I'll express an opinion one way or the other on whether to keep or delete this file until we've resolved the larger policy issue. But since you admittedly haven't been to Baltimore, I don't think you know how important the train station is (or isn't). Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:27, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • And while I have made only one brief visit to Baltimore, I'd suggest that since so many people arrive in Baltimore by train, this is one of the first views many people may see, or one of the last before they leave (whether to go home, or to commute to work in DC). Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:29, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • I don't think we should be discounting people's opinions solely because they have(n't) been to a place - that is not a good precedent to set. Not to mention that travel guides are generally written for people who are not familiar with a place, that's why they are reading the travel guide; the banner should be useful to them, not to us. But why not the harbor? Isn't that where the US national anthem came from? You see, the choice of a banner is subjective - if you asked 20 people who have been to Baltimore what the most important thing in Baltimore is, I'm sure you would get at least 5 different answers. Making the claim that objectively, the train station is, full stop, the most important element of Baltimore is... a novel interpretation of the word "important", to say the least. --Rschen7754 06:38, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • The banner is for Baltimore/Midtown, not Baltimore, and the harbor is not in Midtown. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:43, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
            • Well, but you started talking about the city as a whole, and you are missing the forest for the trees. My overall point still stands. --Rschen7754 06:48, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
              • And my reply would be that probably neither you nor I know Downtown Baltimore well enough to be able to pass judgment on which image is most representative of that neighborhood, and should probably leave that to others, and though it would be interesting to compare the existing pagebanner to alternative pagebanners, Vfd is not the place to do that.
  • Keep and try to do more useful things than discussing obscure issues of fair use. --Alexander (talk) 07:05, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Unless I've misunderstood the original reason for buggering up our table of contents and making life difficult for the typical reader, a Pagebanner is just an excuse to have a really humungous size image that quickly gives a visual clue as to why they may want to visit the destination. If that's right, then any fair use rationale is essentially no different than for any other image used in one of our articles.

On that basis this nomination should fail, or we make a very stiff rod for our own backs with more essential images in the future. --118.93nzp (talk) 07:07, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep. Powers' argument about the parameters of fair use is convincing, as is Ikan's argument about VfD not being the place to canvas for changes to policy, especially controversial ones. We've heard from a goodly portion of those regular contributors whom we'd expect to weigh in on this issue, and it's looking more and more like Rschen is the only one who supports this interpretation of fair use. Absent any major sea change spearheaded by those who've remained silent thus far, per Wikivoyage talk:Votes for deletion#Reconsidering unanimity and guilty until proven innocent I think we're rapidly heading for a consensus to keep.
Anyway, in the exceedingly unlikely event that Wikimedia gets a DMCA notice regarding a pagebanner, the usual procedure as I understand it is that a certain amount of time is allowed after the receipt of the takedown notice to remove the offending image before further litigation is commenced. If that occurs, the image can be deleted and we can revisit our policy on fair use at that time.
-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:16, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Actually no: several people have agreed with my position at Wikivoyage talk:Non-free content#Distillation of the argument. And you're wrong about how WMF handles DCMA: if WMF believes the image is infringing, it is summarily deleted by WMF, and if an admin restores it, they are summarily desysopped by WMF. See m:Office actions, which is a global policy. --Rschen7754 02:11, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. You might want to weigh in on that discussion, Andre. So far, the argument in favor of prohibiting non-free content not covered by freedom of panorama in pagebanners is seeming persuasive to me, although I think a decision should be made on the overall policy before the fate of this banner is determined. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:58, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Apart from the wider discussions about allowing non-free banners in general, Gnagnarra is right on this particular one. I do agree this nomination should not be another forum for the general discussion about whether or not non-free banners should be possible in principle, but there's a clear problem with this specific image (banner or not): the copyright issue lies with the statue, while the arguments in favour of the image are about the building (which is allowed under freedom of panorama). It's quite possible to make pictures of the station without so prominently including the statue, so the concept of "no reasonable expectation of finding a free alternative" doesn't hold. I'm quite sensitive to Powers e.a. argumentation on limited use of non-free images in banners, but this particular one is no proper use of fair use in the Wikimedia context. JuliasTravels (talk) 22:58, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just wondering if there's anyone with with a bit of artistic skill that could paint out the statue in the image? -- WOSlinker (talk) 23:23, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've had a very quick go, but I wouldn't encourage you to look closely... at all! --Nick talk 00:26, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
File:Baltimore pennstation banner EDITED.jpg
Statue removed... badly.
Much bettter than my own attempt. -- WOSlinker (talk) 06:48, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think it looks good; another idea would be going back to the original photo and recropping it so the statue is gone entirely. --Rschen7754 04:39, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
So now we're resorting to misrepresentation? Powers (talk) 18:14, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's a nifty photoshop job, but like Powers, I don't think we should be misrepresenting things. Texugo (talk) 11:00, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Why not try and crop the statue out? There should be enough resolution to go around... --Rschen7754 05:13, 21 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, not on the photo's behalf, nor making a statement one way or the other about the policy being called into question, but rather a vote to annul the nomination because the VfD page seems to me an inappropriate place to have forced a policy discussion that should have taken place elsewhere. Texugo (talk) 11:06, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A consensus of sorts?[edit]

I think we have a broad agreement here that the photo should be kept on a provisional basis, and that arguments for its deletion on fair use grounds, while possibly meritorious, belong at Wikivoyage talk:Non-free content. This nomination has been cluttering the VfD page for almost two months and absent any objections, I'm going to archive it accordingly. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:05, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Result: Kept because no one objected to the above. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 12:25, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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