Talk:Bogotá/La Candelaria

Hi Ikan, thanks a lot for making this discussion possible. I was a looking to find a way to get in touch :)

I think this tour falls into the WV Tour category. It has a great added value, and it covers so much ground, with well-researched content (about culture, politics, economics, sociology..) so it's definitely something that travelers would have never been able to understand by their own. It's even content most locals don't even know...To give you just one short example, for instance, in front of the Gold Museum, we don't blabla about Wikipedia, but explain the impact of Gold & Esmeralds in the conflict, a bit like "Blood-diamond" resources

And I'm afraid it couldn't be summarized in 2 links bullet- points in "See" section, because it's an experience, with the different layers are all inter-connected.

Sorry about the link to LonelyPlanet, but it was more directed to the moderators so you can see by yourself this activity is really considered as a top thing to do in Bogota by leading & selective independent actors. There are lots of public reviews (blog posts, tripadvisor reviews..) And I guess such a great wiki page which resumes the essence of Bogota should includes activities from 2018 as well :) I'll be happy to help providing more information or changing the presentation to make it fully comply with WV guidelines :) —The preceding comment was added by Annactz (talk • contribs)

This is mostly copied from my user talk page because this same post was also put there and I saw it there first:

"Value-added activity" has a specific meaning on Wikivoyage, as per the "Tour listings" subsection of Wikivoyage:Listings, which you need to refer to in order to demonstrate this tour has it:

Tours can be listed on Wikivoyage as long as they constitute a value-added activity. If a traveller could fulfill the substance of the tour on their own, the tour should not be listed.

[snip]

In practice this policy disallows listing most audio tours, walking tours, and guided tours since the substance of such tours can generally be fulfilled by an independent traveller, and the information provided on such tours should ideally be included in the appropriate Wikivoyage article. If you have a question about whether a tour can be listed, or feel that an exception is warranted, please use the talk page of the appropriate article to discuss your concerns.

What this means is that if the "value added" is information, you could instead summarize the information in the Wikivoyage article, if you so chose. And "value added" on Wikivoyage means that, for example, a guided tour is required by the North Korean government for tourists to enter the country, or someone is operating a tour on a river boat which a visitor would need to buy or rent their own boat, otherwise, in order to duplicate.

I'll look forward to seeing your argument on how this tour is "value-added" by Wikivoyage's definition.

Parenthetically, you "sign" talk pages by typing 4 tildes (~) in a row at the end of your post.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:41, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Thank for your quick reply.I'm not sure if I replied here according to the standard, I tried to do my best.

I do understand this policy, and to me it makes sense, I can’t agree most walking tours would be redundant with the point of interests to visit.

But I’m afraid, I’m still 100% positive Heroes Tour respect Wikivoyage’ s definition of “added-value”, and this page should list more added value activities in Bogota, all the more since this “Do” section hasn’t been updated for 3 years and a part of it is obsolete: (the current “free bogota walking tours” of this page are not running anymore bullet point now points to a website listing/reselling other tour operators).

There’s one item in the “tour listing” definition I consider pretty interesting, and it’s 100% the case with Heroes Tour:

“Tours should offer something as a supplement, rather than a replacement for Wikivoyage guides. They should count as an activity available at a destination (e.g., a helicopter tour of a city, or a camel expedition into the Sahara).” And then…“and the information provided on such tours should ideally be included in the appropriate Wikivoyage article”.

Unlike what “classic” walking tours are, let’s name it a descriptive, they don’t bring up more than topics which are connected to the monument. –anecdotes, description of buildings, things who happened here, or by this artist, etc..- .

We exactly do the opposite, our value is “far-fetched”, not obvious. And the added-value is here, 90% of our content is exclusive, meaning travelers would never have gotten access, even doing other walking tours… It's also taboo so not accessible in public places to visit. But this is political (and more) information travellers are trying to get, and in this specific case, there's no better option than a guided tour to get...So to me, it's definitely not by reading the "see" section they would fulfill the substance of the tour on their own,

So, I can’t understand how Heroes Tour could not be considered, as a “supplement” rather than “ a replacement” to the “See” article.

The example about the “blood diamond” was just one among 20+ stops we do. Or example, we walk by the Ministry of Agriculture, to explain the major role of agriculture (and other factors), in the creation of the FARC Conflict. I don’t think listing this ministry of Agriculture would be a better move for the audience, to summarize it role (and then what? What happened with this armed conflict? How it escalated, got famous worldwide.. What are the myths or hidden truths ,etc..? )

Actually, our added value also lies in the structure of the experience(we don't walk from A to point N, talking about 1, 10 and 13...). We go to a place for a reason, explaining in chronological sequences. Meaning in the same chapter, we continuous address the different dimensions of the same topic.

Maybe to help you understand better why Heroes Tour as an different added value (), it explains how Bogota, since its foundation by pre-hispanic civilization got to be nicknamed the “Athens of America”, and it was heavily impacted by the war of Escobar against Colombia and by the armed –conflict with the FARCs (I’m sorry but this part includes several see-sightings spots, other than the 2 I mentions, which couldn't be listed “see” sections, there are not even listed in touristic information at all ), the peace process & today’s culture in Bogota.

Second point, they wouldn’t dare walking by, because we are visiting no-touristy places, where local still consider as no go zone (same added value of the walking tour).

But that said, I can think of 1 or 2 other tours which would fit here in Bogota (Breaking Border, in a 100% no-go zone without guide, favela like, or the Graffiti tours, led by artists themselves).

So to sums up, I think we have an added value to Wikivoyage's standard.It would be difficult to add lots of our stops in the "see" section, touristically speaking, they don't have interest per-see, it's the value the tour created which make sense. And if we added , even part of it, it would be a "supplement" and not a "replacement" of what is currently in this page.

And then, I think of a topic not discussed yet, because I do understand as a wiki, the idea to bring more information and not just make of this page

a collection of all the possibles activities: Does Heroes Tour provide any interest for the audience reading Bogota's section?

I'm biased (obviously), for having created this tour myself, but I think the answer is yes.It's not a doublon, it's pretty different than the walking tour listed here. It's a pertinent option to be added, which potentially address  most travelers (most, if not all, are curious about recent history, current politics or local perspective). 

And I also think this page can slightly evolves, there is way more to do in Bogota now than 3 years ago. Annactz (talk) 22:52, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for posting a detailed argument here, I appreciate that.

The "free" walking tour shouldn't be listed, in any case - I'll have a look. And any updates on things to do are welcome.

In terms of your tour, the one thing you said that it strikes me might make it "value-added" under Wikivoyage's definitions is if a visitor would be taking their life in their hands if they visited some of these places outside of a guided tour. All the rest is information you could choose to provide freely (but of course it would be completely understandable if you chose not to).

I think it's important to get more opinions about your tour. I may post to Requests for comment if that's needed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:41, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Thank again for this reply. I can help figuring out about this information: it's public, 2 days ago, a French who did this tour published this blog post,

with itinerary : https://www.wcifly.com/en/blog-travelstory-freewalkingtourbogota . The itinerary is incomplete, but shows a interesting point: we are walk by a district named Santa Fe (you can google "barrio santa fe", it's considered like the most dangerous district in Bogota, it's absolutely a no go zone, especially at night. We are not crazy and don't want to put tourist at risk, we know the part of Santa Fe where we can go. Below is a post in English listing the most dangerous neighborhoods in the world, quoting Santa Fe: https://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2011/03/the-worlds-most-dangerous-neighborhoods/ferghana Annactz (talk) 13:27, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks again. I've posted to requests for comment, so that we can get more people considering this question. If we don't get enough participants that way, a thread could also be started at the Travellers' pub with a link here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:22, 18 October 2018 (UTC)