Talk:Brú Na Bóinne Archaeological Park
Add topicLatest comment: 3 years ago by Grahamsands in topic Update
Article title
[edit]The current title of the article (Brú Na Bóinne Archaeological Park) more clearly identifies that it's a valid article subject, and I think it's reasonable to assume it will survive the VFD. However there's still some question about the best name for it. Project:Article naming conventions call for the "most common English name" for a place (e.g. "Vienna" not "Wien", "Naples" not "Napoli"). Sources such as the UNESCO World Heritage Site site identify this as "Bend of the Boyne" rather than "Brú Na Bóinne". I respect that (as pointed out by the article's author in the VFD discussion) the Irish people and government prefer the Gaelic name, and that Wikipedia (being encyclopedic in character) prefers that as the official name. But the question here is what name to use for an English-language travel guide, so that doesn't automatically settle it. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 19:24, 17 April 2007 (EDT)
- Gaeilge (or ‘Irish’ in “your” English policy) is the national language of Ireland – not Gaelic. The “Irish people and government prefer” the 'Brú Na Bóinne' name because that is what it called. In 1992 there was no official title to the archaeological complex in the Boyne valley. The Government was in the process of implementing a new policy for such heritage areas. The UNESCO application was the first action taken, and for the purposes of the application a name had to be invented – hence the “Bend of the Boyne” title. The application was successful in 1993 and shortly afterwards, as a result, the Government established the area as an Archaeological Park (Brú Na Bóinne Archaeological Park), a Management plan was produced, a visitor centre (Brú Na Bóinne Visitor Centre) was built and access to the principal sites was routed through the visitor centre from 1997 onwards. The original inscription on the UNESCO list is unfortunate as it seems to the cause of the above confusion - ideally the name on the UNESCO list should be changed. In any case the “Bend of the Boyne” title is not used anywhere except the 1992 UNESCO application, while the “Brú Na Bóinne” title is the official title used by central and local Government. The "Brú Na Bóinne" title is used by the vast majority of maps, leaflets, tourist information, road signage etc no matter what language they are written in!
- There is a difference between a direct translation of a ‘non-English place name’ (Palace of the Boyne Archaeological Park), that of the ‘most common English name’ for a place (there is no 'most common English name' for it) and what the place is actually called (Brú Na Bóinne Archaeological Park). The most common name used is a non-English one; Brú Na Bóinne.
- I apologize for my mistake on the name of the language; obviously I do not speak it. That's one of the reasons for the site's policy regarding the use of English names: people who speak English are notorious for their unfamiliarity with other languages. If the site is actually better known by its Gaeilge name, then of course we'll use that. But I'll be honest: your repeated sneering at our policy of using English names in an English-language guide makes me wonder if you have a axe to grind about the use of English, which reduces your credibility on this point. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 08:42, 18 April 2007 (EDT)
- I sincerely apologise if you thought I was “sneering”. I was not aware that you run / administer the website and hence was confused with your repeated use of “our”. I understand and appreciate the Wikivoyage language policy – I have been trying to explain how and why this case is different though; there is an actual reason the (made-up) English title isn’t used! And as such I have no “axe to grind about the use of English”. You are not required to speak a language to understand a given place name or reference to such. It has been your tone, from the beginning, and now your disparaging remarks about my apparent credibility which have reduced the credibility of this website.
- There is some English name for the place, since we're writing in English about it on an English site. As far as I can tell, "Brú Na Bóinne" is the most commonly used name in English sources for this location.
- We tend to use the first-person plural on Wikivoyage to discuss our policies, guidelines, and content. I think this comes from a common feeling of ownership. Please, anonymous user, feel free to use "we" and "our", too. --(WT-en) Evan 10:03, 18 April 2007 (EDT)
- Indeed - actual local knowledge is always better than Google!
- I sincerely apologise if you thought I was “sneering”. I was not aware that you run / administer the website and hence was confused with your repeated use of “our”. I understand and appreciate the Wikivoyage language policy – I have been trying to explain how and why this case is different though; there is an actual reason the (made-up) English title isn’t used! And as such I have no “axe to grind about the use of English”. You are not required to speak a language to understand a given place name or reference to such. It has been your tone, from the beginning, and now your disparaging remarks about my apparent credibility which have reduced the credibility of this website.
VFD discussion
[edit]Non article, per Project:What_is_an_article? -- (WT-en) Tim (writeme!) 19:01, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
- Keep. I disagree; Brú Na Bóinne is an Archaeological Park containing over 40 sites (not quite a National Park - but close enough) and anyway clearly qualifies under the exceptions clause of the 'What is an article' policy as a 'Large archaeological site'. There has been and continues to be confusion about access to the principal archaeological sites, hence the entry.
- The site itself may qualify as the subject of an article, but the visitor centre for it does not. Information about how to access the site should be part of an article about the site, not the other way around. Our UNESCO World Heritage Sites page currently links to the article for Drogheda. (By the way, our policy is to use the English names of places for all destinations, so I believe "Bend of the Boyne" would be a more appropriate article title, if we have one specifically for this site.) - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 15:15, 17 April 2007 (EDT)
- Setting aside the 'our English policy' remark, the original inscription on the UNESCO list was 'Archaeological Ensemble of the Bend of the Boyne'. The complex subsequently became an Archaeological Park (the Brú Na Bóinne Archaeological Park) and is known locally (i.e. the region), Nationally (i.e. by Government) and internationally (in most cases), simply as Brú Na Bóinne - and is almost always referred to as such. The vast majority of guide books, maps and related information published, refers to Brú Na Bóinne. Notwithstanding that fact, the article was written only yesterday and was due (and received) more attention today, and taking into account your first point, has been reshaped as the Brú Na Bóinne Archaeological Park - i.e. what it actually is and not what it was termed at the time the UNESCO application was made in 1992. Incidentally the main Wiki article for the UNESCO site is titled Brú Na Bóinne - not "Bend of the Boyne".
- The name is tangential to the discussion at hand (for which I vote keep by the way), and should resume (for now) at Talk:Brú Na Bóinne Archaeological Park. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 19:03, 17 April 2007 (EDT)
- Setting aside the 'our English policy' remark, the original inscription on the UNESCO list was 'Archaeological Ensemble of the Bend of the Boyne'. The complex subsequently became an Archaeological Park (the Brú Na Bóinne Archaeological Park) and is known locally (i.e. the region), Nationally (i.e. by Government) and internationally (in most cases), simply as Brú Na Bóinne - and is almost always referred to as such. The vast majority of guide books, maps and related information published, refers to Brú Na Bóinne. Notwithstanding that fact, the article was written only yesterday and was due (and received) more attention today, and taking into account your first point, has been reshaped as the Brú Na Bóinne Archaeological Park - i.e. what it actually is and not what it was termed at the time the UNESCO application was made in 1992. Incidentally the main Wiki article for the UNESCO site is titled Brú Na Bóinne - not "Bend of the Boyne".
- The site itself may qualify as the subject of an article, but the visitor centre for it does not. Information about how to access the site should be part of an article about the site, not the other way around. Our UNESCO World Heritage Sites page currently links to the article for Drogheda. (By the way, our policy is to use the English names of places for all destinations, so I believe "Bend of the Boyne" would be a more appropriate article title, if we have one specifically for this site.) - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 15:15, 17 April 2007 (EDT)
- Keep, with or without changing the name depending on discussion Todd points to. (WT-en) Pashley 21:03, 25 April 2007 (EDT)
- Redirect to Drogheda - the nearest place with facilities. Drogheda is mentioned many times in the article and is where the site should be featured, in line with our policy of not having articles for individual attractions except in exceptional circumstances. -- (WT-en) DanielC 13:09, 29 April 2007 (EDT)
- Keep, in its redirected guise as Brú Na Bóinne Archaeological Park. There are similarities between this and a number of United States national monuments that have been discussed at length, for example Chimney Rock National Historic Site and Scotts Bluff National Monument. In each case we have an article that probably doesn't have to exist, being tied to a town or other destination, but since someone went to the trouble of creating the article, might as well keep it. See also the "Conventions" and "Conventions revisited" threads at Talk:United States National Parks for more of the reasoning that led to the retention of those other articles, also applicable to this one. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 16:45, 5 May 2007 (EDT)
Update
[edit]By 2021 "Brú Na Bóinne" has become the established name that even the English can get their jaws around. Newgrange is the major POI within the complex: I've tried to weed out incorrect use of this as a synonym for the entire park. It is of course closed just now, but I've not plastered on a Covid warning since it could flip back and forth in coming months, and current status will be obvious when you try to book online. Being a park, accommodation migrates elsewhere, what the page needed was more about what you see and why it's important. It's a fascinating place to visit and I now rate the page as high-grade usable. Grahamsands (talk) 22:19, 21 January 2021 (UTC)