The comment about Hindi books in India is very true, although India is an ideal place to learn Hindi! ;-) (WT-en) Jeremy 16:10, 17 Feb 2004 (EST)
I am interested by this. Should we use the Devanagari script? (WT-en) Yann 09:55, 19 Jan 2004 (EST)
- Of course. It'll take some explanation of how to put letters together (e.g. rkshi looks completely different from any of the individual letters), but it's not that hard to learn, and it'll be easier to find a Hindi keyboard layout than one which has d's with dots under them. See Greek phrasebook and Hebrew phrasebook. -(WT-en) phma 10:41, 19 Jan 2004 (EST)
- Agreed. However, phoneticizing the phrases in the phrasebook becomes more important when there's a non-Roman script used.
- This is a good phrasebook to start. --(WT-en) Evan 10:50, 19 Jan 2004 (EST)
- Agreed. I like it. (WT-en) Jeremy 16:10, 17 Feb 2004 (EST)
Should Hindi and Urdu be two phrasebooks, or one phrasebook with two scripts? -(WT-en) phma 15:49, 19 Jan 2004 (EST)
I'm voting for one phrasebook with two scripts and a lot of explination. We don't have two phrasebooks for France-French and Quebec-French and Hindi-Urdu is probably even closer (more info than you probably want at http://sasw.chass.ncsu.edu/fl/faculty/taj/hindi/abturdu.htm, http://www.geocities.com/sikmirza/arabic/hindustani.html). I would suggest moving the page to Hindi-Urdu phrasebook though, just to be clear and fair. (WT-en) Majnoona 23:01, 19 Jan 2004 (EST)
- ok for me. (WT-en) Yann 04:56, 20 Jan 2004 (EST)
- I put most of the pronunciation key in and moved it, ready for you to type Nagari instead of the transliteration, but since I don't know the language, only how to pronounce it, that's it for me. -(WT-en) phma 22:38, 21 Jan 2004 (EST)
I added a consonant to the combining vowels, since without it they were attaching to the previous Roman letter or the parenthesis. They still look weird; in particular the short i, which should be to the left of t, is to its right. I don't know if it's my X server (XFree86 4.2.1), my fonts, or something else. If you have a proper Nagari setup, could you check? -(WT-en) phma 20:29, 25 Jan 2004 (EST)
- Yes, that's weird. It's OK on Konqueror, but wrong on the Mozilla. But if I exchange the letters, then it is the opposite. :( Actually, I don't write much in Hindi with a computer, so I don't know what is the right way. I will check on http://hi.wikipedia.org/ (WT-en) Yann 15:45, 26 Jan 2004 (EST)
- According to http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode4.0.0/ch09.pdf , the consonants and vowels are stored in phonetic order, so the way I typed it is correct. On mine the page looks right in Mozilla (1.3a), but wrong in Konqueror (3.0.99). So it's probably a bug in the Unicode rendering library that Konqi uses. What versions do you have? -(WT-en) phma 19:11, 26 Jan 2004 (EST)
- Oops, I didn't notice that you switched them. The i should go after the t, but should show up to the left of the t; but on both Moz and Konq my computer shows the i to the right of the t when i is after t. So maybe it's a bug in my fonts, or in X. -(WT-en) phma 19:29, 26 Jan 2004 (EST)
This page is becoming quite long. Can it cut in two? (WT-en) Yann 16:24, 26 Jan 2004 (EST)
- Most of our list of phrasebooks are pretty long. So, please don't. --(WT-en) Evan 16:35, 26 Jan 2004 (EST)
When entering the phrases, the words in parentheses should follow the pseudo-phoneticization guide as closely as practicable for Hindi ("kh", for example, is not the ach-Laut but an aspirated "k"). Before that should be the phrase in Nagari and Arabic script, if you can type them. If the Hindi phrase is different from the Urdu phrase, put them on separate lines with <br> between them. -(WT-en) phma 22:08, 26 Jan 2004 (EST)
- Well this phoneticization system is Chinese for me. ;o) I will let somebody else write it. And although I didn't have any problem understand and be understood in Pakistan, I don't know Urdu. (WT-en) Yann 03:14, 27 Jan 2004 (EST)
- Can you at least indicate the syllables and the stress? I know the rule for Classical Sanskrit, but don't know how it's changed since then. I did some numbers as an example. -(WT-en) phma 07:36, 27 Jan 2004 (EST)
If anybody is still following this article I am making it a project of mine to improve this phrase book. I added a clearer chart, and changed some things around. I would love suggestions and ideas, or disputes to my changes. I don't want to step on anyone's toes, I can always discuss proposed changes in the future if anyone feels cheated. There are quite a few things I would like to discuss/collaberate on, as well as ideas I have. Like can we just delete the good morning and other time elemental greetings? Just because there is some arcane Sanskrit word doesn't mean it needs to be here. The same goes with things like 'sorry', 'excuse me', 'thank you', etc. though shukriya is probably used more in Urdu than it or dhanyavaad is used in Hindi. And for polite usage, the English word or phrase is generally used instead. The KH, GH, f, z, also need to be added as does the candrabindu perhaps, though modern usage doesn't require it. The modifying diacritics could also go after the consonants. Also religious terms could be added, like mandir, masjid, gurudwara, etc. As could city names, and significant sites: taj mahal, red fort, etc; the Islamic and Western calender, holidays and festivals (e.g. Holi, Divali, Ramazan), et cetera ad infinituum! I just want to give a heads up, I believe there is much that needs to be done here! Let's make the phrasebook for the world's third largest language on par with its status!
On stress, Hindi is a very flat language, like Spanish without accents. There is no stress, as there are in Vedic hymns, etc. However, syllables could be noted especially when because of a suffix, or sometimes after 'ra' there is no inherent 'a'. Otherwise syllables are pretty much just counting vowels! eg. na1-ma1-ste1. I was thinking of adding IPA, but I don't know IPA well enough yet and therefore not confident enough with it to edit. i.e. I don't know whether to use a schwa, lambda or backwards epsilon character to represent the inherent 'a'. I could use help regarding this issue.
On seperating Hindi and Urdu. YES! We've probably all read the Hindi-Urdu FAQ, etc., and Bollywood itself is very mixed. In short, there is no such thing as "pure" Hindi, except maybe in the grade schools of Bihar! However; unlike Québécois and Français, we are talking about different scripts, different histories (not to imply France and Québec don't), and in the case of Urdu much more Turkish, Arabic, and Farsi elements, like the izaafat. And most importantly, religion. Though India has one of the largest Muslim communities in the world (3rd, 4th?), let's face it; Hindi is colored with Hinduism, and Urdu, post partition has become even more consciously Islamic. I would love to find a way to put them together, but I'm not sure the page is wide enough for most people to fit on their screens (esp. longer phrases): --Phrase | Transliteration | Devanagari | Nastaliq/Naskh | Pronunciation | IPA-- whether in a chart, or other formatting. And I'm not even getting into the variants each language has Persian/Devanagari, etc which could be rectified using the aforementioned <bk>'s, but still wouldn't simplify matters enough. The former reasons mentioned are why Urdu is often considered a seperate language by linguists on sociological grounds http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=hin . If anyone wishes to help me tackle the Urdu, an invaluable intro to nastaliq can be found at http://users.skynet.be/hugocoolens/newurdu/newurdu.html . As well as an urdu dictionary here: http://www.urduword.com . btw, among my minor corrections so far I corrected the fact that Arabic numerals actually do go left-right. It was an understandable mistake though for anyone not familiar with the quirks of Arabic.
I'm currently at the end of my second year of Hindi, and besides any help any of you can provide, I plan to talk to my teacher, classmates, and Indian friends for help. For the time being I will at least start wikifying the Urdu alphabet - though I hope it will be seperated. I use Mac X.4 and Safari browser. Everything looks fine to me. Sorry if anyone is having problems. If anyone would like links or good books/dictionaries suggestions, just ask. I always welcome suggestions beyond the ubiquitous Snell book myself! (WT-en) Khirad 17:13, 23 May 2005 (EDT)
- I would also recommend splitting Hindi and Urdu into separate phrasebooks. If the experience with Malay and Indonesian is anything to go by, even though the languages are very similar, there are enough small differences to make a "shared" phrasebook quite difficult to compile and use — plus for Hindi/Urdu you also have the hassle of completely different scripts. (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:45, 23 May 2005 (EDT)
- Well, now that I've gone ahead and done it, I don't know how happy I'd be in seperating them! haha. There are its advantages of putting them together, but yes the different scripts were my main concern, and indeed can be a hassle. This is still very much under construction, which is of course obvious. I just mean to say I'll work on wikifying it later to conform more to standards. After looking at other phrasebooks I should shorten this alot as well. But I am in a quandry, for there are things which are unique to India, as there are anywhere, esp. non-occidental areas; and that I feel every traveller should know these things in regards of South Asia. Customs, potential western faux pas, etc. Many can go in general Indian and Pakistani articles, but some things should be included here as well. For instance, what to do when greeting someone. Though India is not only the home of Hinduism, but also the most densely populated, it also has significant religions minorities, whereas the most populous Muslim nation's minorities add up to only app. 10%. The great religious diversity of India adds also to its linguistic diversity and thus, greetings, etc. And on a humorous note, I'm not sure how important it is to be able to say "I don't eat pork" in India! (pork was the source of an uprising after all one of the only times Muslims and Hindus ever agreed on anything!), but I'll include it anyway as it isn't forbidden to Parsis or Sikhs/and to conform to standards. I also feel incredibly embarrased to have changed the format so drastically and opting for tables. I thought it looked much cleaner and is much easier to use with different scripts - and I believe, more user friendly as well. The other way looks primitive to me, but that's just my ever so humble opinion, no offence to anyone. Will I need to change this back? and if so I'm sorry. I've added perhaps too many indoabbr-esque footnotes! I added to my esteemed predecessor's notes. I wish I could link directly to wikipedia articles and avoid the long winded explanations - because on one hand, these things are significant, while OTOH unneedingly add to the length of the article. Anyways I've found there is a fine line between a bare-bones phrasebook and an all-out textbook on the language(s). I'll work on finding a happy medium and erasing superfluous material later. I guess my vision for an Hindi and/or Urdu phrasebook is different than the layout given, but hey, I'm being bold and plunging in. right?! The layout must be modified a little for any language I would think. But regardless, I'll fix stuff after I have completed adding stuff, promise. Other people shouldn't have to clean up my mess later! (WT-en) Khirad Jun 2005 (EDT)
It has been a while since I've touched this page, but I haven't given up trying to complete it. In any case, the page already takes up too much memory. Some primary things I think that contribute to it are introducing two writing systems, etc. It dawned on me that I never did the numbers table in Urdu, but unless anyone complains, this is perhaps for the best now, considering space. As much as I like the en face format of Hindi-Urdu, perhaps splitting up will have to be debated again in the future. As will what to keep and what to prune. I also need to figure out how to write a proper grammer section without going overboard, and choose only the essentials. (WT-en) Khirad 20:25, 7 Sep 2005 (EDT)
- Feel free to prune information that you feel isn't necessary, but be aware that there has been some discussion about removing the warnings about page size, so don't let page size be too much of a concern. My personal opinion is that it is more valuable to have a complete (but well-organized) guide rather than a compact but incomplete guide. -- (WT-en) Wrh2 21:10, 7 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Separating Hindi and Devanagari?
The lengthy section on the intricacies of Devanagari is rather intimidating — and it could also be reused for other languages using the same script, eg. Nepali, Marathi etc. Would it make any sense to limit this to speaking Hindi, and shunt out the script stuff into a separate "Learning Devanagari script" article?
Note that the basic vowel/consonant stuff and the Devanagari phrases should of course stay in the phrasebook, because they're useful to point at even if you can't read the language. (WT-en) Jpatokal 08:33, 12 November 2006 (EST)
- Good idea. — (WT-en) Ravikiran 09:55, 12 November 2006 (EST)
- Done. I also tried to hack the phrasebook a bit so it's comprehensible even if you aren't fluent in Devanagari. (WT-en) Jpatokal 01:23, 16 November 2006 (EST)
Copied from the India article
I just cleaned out a whole lot of stuff from India's "Talk" section as it was TMI and was breaking the flow. It may or may not be useful here. — (WT-en) Ravikiran 14:24, 20 November 2006 (EST) Hindi is spoken in many dialects . Dialects of Hindi Hindi has more than ten variations. Hindi spoken in Rajasthan is different from Hindi spoken in Bihar or Hindi of Himachal Pradesh. Sometimes the different variations of a language are considered as separate language with their own literature.
One of the most important dialects is Khariboli (also Khadiboli or Khari dialect), which is spoken in Western and Eastern Uttar Pradesh. Khariboli is the variation of Urdu/Hindi language that is used by the government and taught in schools. It was a rural language in its early days, but after 18th century, people started using it as the literary form of Urdu as its vocabulary contains a large amount of Persian and Arabic words. Almost all the significant modern Hindi literature has been produced in Khariboli.
Yet another important dialect is the Bihari Hindi spoken by the people of Bihar ,Jharkhand and some parts of Eastern UP like Balia.Lately it has become popular owing to the Politicians and Hindi movies.
Awadhi - Spoken predominantly in rural centers Central and parts of Eastern Uttar Pradesh. Urban centers speak Khadi Boli. Lucknow, Kanpur, Rae Bareli, Faizabad, Allahabad. However, as we move east of Lucknow, we begin to get a little mix of Bhojpuri as well both in words and accent. Tulsidas' Shri Raamcharit Manas is written in Awadhi. The dialect in Lagaan, Nadiya Ke Paar and songs in Omkara is are Awadhi.
Another dialect is Bambaiya Hindi(also Mumbaiyya )which is spoken primarily in Bombay (Mumbai). On the streets of Bombay, people from every part of India co-exist. Their inter-mingling has created a language that has Hindi/Urdu as a base, but includes words and pronunciations from other languages such as English, Marathi and Gujarati, as well as languages from South India.
A third important dialect is Brajbhasa, spoken in the region of Braj. Brajbhasa was the language of choice of the Bhakti movement, or the neo-Vaishnavite religions, the central deity of which was Krishna. Therefore, most of the literature in this language pertains to Krishna composed in medieval times.
Among the other variations of Hindi, we can inculde Kanauji, Bundeli, Bagheli, Chhattisgarhi (Lahariya or Khalwahi), Hariyanvi (Bangaru or Jatu), Bhaya, Chamari and Ghera Gowli.
Some of the weirdo translations
Someone has been using shuddh Hindi which will not get a foreigner anywhere in India. Someone translated bathroom into snaanagraha. Who, may I ask, refers to it as that!!???? Here are a few suggestions -
- Train (Relgaadi)
- Car (Gaari, not Vaahan)
- Plane (Hawaijahaz, not Viman)
- Bathroom (Toilet, by far the most common term for it in Northern India)
(WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 05:37, 23 February 2007 (EST)
I bet "vimaan" is more common than "hawaaii jahaaz".especially in other parts of indie, e.g. gujarat, maharashtra, bengal, etc. as it is the same word for aeroplane in the respective languages.
- First of all, try to understand one thing. For example in West Bengal, Hindi is no use in the smaller towns. The only place where people understand Hindi somewhat is Kolkata, where anyway it would be more useful to speak English. The number of people who can read and write English is far greater than the number who can read and write Hindi, as Devanagari is different from the Bengali script.
- The fact is that the Govt of India tries to promote all this Hindi is the lingua franca of India rubbish. The fact is, that the lingua franca in an Indian city/town is usually the state language, and NOT Hindi (exception: Mumbai). For example, a Konkani speaking Mangalorean living in Bangalore, Karnataka will probably understand Kannada, and not Hindi.
- So this Hindi phrasebook is basically for travelling around the Hindi-speaking belt.
And no-one in Delhi or MP or UP will call an aeroplane/airplane a 'vimaan'
w:IAST to w:Hunterian transliteration style
After some reflection and discussion with other Voyagers, looking at Russian phrasebook (the only star phrasebook) as inspiration and WV:the traveller comes first principle, I believe the transliteration should favour convenience and ease of learning over accuracy. This means all of the diacritics will go and either be replaced with digraphs (ī becomes ee for instance) or just removed (ñ, ṅ and ṇ become n).
Anyway, nearly all Hindi words when written in English in India on billboards and things don't have the dots and lines around the letters. A corner shop owned by Sita/Seeta or Raj/Raaj is just called that, not Sīta or Rāj.
The Devanagari will still be 100% accurate. Any keen traveller and language learner of Northern India will learn the script and thereby learn how to pronounce Hindi words accurately. But for the traveller who is not spending a lot of time in India and just wants to learn the basics quickly, the pseudo-transliteration will cater to them. The IAST helps nobody except for academics. And Wikitravel is not Wikipedia. :) DaGizza (talk) 00:42, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
- Actually many of the "n" sounds in many modern Hindi dialects have been merged together. So there is no difference between many of the "n"'s from a practical point of view. They were distinct in Sanskrit but this ain't a Sanskrit phrasebook. Also changing the transliteration of ś and ṣ to "sh" will be very helpful. These sounds are close to the "sh" in shoe and shoulder. Writing them as an "s" with a line or dot might make the reader pronounce them like an English "s" which is wrong (well, an English speaker can do better). But if anyone has any objections please say so. I think these changes reflect the goals of Wikitravel and will bring the phrasebook one step closer to star status. DaGizza (talk) 00:47, 7 November 2014 (UTC)