Talk:Money/Archive 2004-2012

I am in Canada and most of my knowledge on credit cards is limited to Canada and US. I don't know if the same rules apply to credit cards issued in other countries.

• Do other countries Credit Cards often have insurance as part of the card?
• Do other countries have travel cards?
• Do other countries credit cards protect you against not receiving the purchase. (For example when the Canada 3000 airline went bankrupt, all of the Credit Card purchases of tickets were reversed by the card companies once they didn't provide the service. You had to wait until your travel day, and then write a letter to the Credit Card company to say you never received your flight, but that was much better than loosing out completely as you would have if you paid with cash or cheque)

Also I've never used travellers' cheques so maybe others can provide better information on that. My personal experience with currency exchange is limited mostly to North America and a little bit in Europe (pre-Euro). So I may have missed some things that are important in the rest of the world.

I think this page should be kept very general. No country or even region specific information should be included here. That should be on the country page. However, if someone can provide general information on the risks/benefits of black market currency exchange that probably should be here. -- (WT-en) Webgeer 01:31, Jul 30, 2004 (EDT)

Agreed, the ATM naming list should be distributed among the destinations concerned — but I'm too lazy to do it. :) (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:59, 5 May 2005 (EDT)

I've finally ripped out the list, please move these to the country articles in question and then delete from below. (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:26, 6 March 2006 (EST)

• Canada: ABM (ATM is also used) I have never heard anyone use ABM I think CIBC uses that in their literature, but it is not a normal term, at least in Western Canada (However, ABM is used in some machines in Western Canada)
• Italy: Bankomat
• Switzerland: Bancomat
• Germany: Geldautomat
• Poland: Bankomat
• United Kingdom: Cashpoint
• Latin America: Cajero Automatico
• United States: ATM
• The Netherlands: Pin automaat, or geld automaat

Gah!

What's this?

Why are we giving tips on how to successfully transact black money? First it was encouraging others to bribe in India, see Talk:India#Baksheesh and now it's this. And although no one's denying the fact that black money rates are quite good, it's morally wrong and advising travellers to indulge in such stuff is not one of our goals.

Just because corruption is high in third-world countries (including India, my home country), it doesn't mean that others should be encouraged to become corrupt themselves. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage • ( Talk ) • ( (WT-en) Travel ) • 09:04, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

Study the text yourself....

The key guideline to successful black market transactions is to receive the money before you hand yours over. Count the bills, inspect the bills carefully, compare them to any you already have, and only then surrender your own money to the vendor. Do not allow them to take back the money they gave you, as this is where various sleight-of-hand tricks can be pulled to replace the legitimate bundle with something entirely different.

An exception may apply in countries such as Nepal and India where doing a legal exchange at a bank can involve wasting an hour or more but most hotels will change money for you instantly and fairly safely. The rate may not be much better, but the convenience is.

I think its not as much about corruption as it is practicality. There are many third world nations where the "official" exchange rate is ridiculous. Take Zimbabwe for example, for many years the "official" exchange rate was 250 to 1 US dollar. In 2008, the rate was changed to 250,000 to 1...but by the middle of the year, the price of common goods like bread and milk were priced in the billions and the black market rate approached 500billion to 1 US dollar. The government revalued the currency at 10,000,000,000 to 1, but did not change the exchange rate. So currently the official exchange rate adjusted for revalued money is 1 Zimbabwe dollar to 40,000 US dollar...but the black market rate is 26,000 Zimbabwe dollars to 1 US dollar. That's a huge difference. The same goes with Iran, where the exchange rate in the black market is about twice the official rates. So sometimes, you must deal in the black market. (WT-en) AHeneen 22:02, 20 November 2008 (EST)

4-digit PIN

"PIN code lengths vary from country to country. 4-digit PINs are more or less universal, but longer codes may be rejected. Ask your bank to issue you a 4-digit PIN for travel."

Is this really true? I have read this on a number of sites, but is it just an urban legend, or out-of-date? I have a 6-digit PIN, and have never had any problem anywhere in Europe. Can anybody confirm WHERE you need a 4-digit PIN? CF 15/10/07.

Based on quick Googling, this seems to be out of date pretty much anywhere. PINs of over 6 digits are still problematic, but also pretty rare. (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:23, 15 October 2007 (EDT)

Central America ATMs generally don't accept non 4-digit pins.

Crime to exceed your limit!?

I've cut out this section as highly dubious:

In a few countries, such a Malaysia and Singapore, it is a crime to go over your credit card limit. It is unlikely, though, that a tourist would be arrested if they haven't yet left the store with the goods. More caution should be used at restaurants, but even here, you'll probably be given a second chance to pay with cash or another card. (This law has been around long before credit cards were electronically scanned.)

I live and travel extensively in both countries, have attempted and seen other attempt to charge to a maxed out card umpteen times, and have never been met with anything other than a shoulder shrug while you dig the next one out of your wallet. (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:30, 15 October 2007 (EDT)

Long list of US credit card fees..

With regard to this edit , can anyone see a reasno to maintain a long list of US bank fees here? Firstly, it is very U.S. centric, secondly it is going to be a pain to keep updated.

Also, I don't accept the additions with regard to dynamic currency conversion. It sounds a little like credit card propaganda to me. By all means be aware of what your credit card fees and charges are, but having my credit card charged in my home currency always seems to save me money over the VISA exchange rate I have, plus the 1.5% foreign currency fee my card charges me. The best advice would seem to be alert, and take the best deal on offer. Signing above the line, crossing stuff out, and sending copies to the credit card company? Is this serious? --(WT-en) inas 20:44, 10 September 2009 (EDT)

I've deleted the huge table. However, re: dynamic currency conversion, the article is basically accurate, it's little more than a scam in many parts of Europe these days. (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:33, 10 September 2009 (EDT)

I haven't encountered this in in Europe yet. Certainly in Hong Kong, Macau, and Singapore last year, I found it common, and rate seemed a little better than the bank rate (although with daily variations, such things are difficult to say with any certainty). I certainly think the general rule to avoid at all costs doesn't apply, and certainly the idea of signing above the line and crossing out text on the receipt is unlikely to serve any useful purpose I would have thought. --(WT-en) inas 23:44, 10 September 2009 (EDT)

I like the info in the huge table. Bank fees are a major topic when dealing with money abroad and travelers always ask me what banks I am using that have no fees and they wonder what fees are charged by their bank......would it be ok if we just made a separate article with the table and included relevant info from other countries as well as us/canada?

and yes, the table can be maintained - if it can be created, it can be maintained, right?

Why would they ask you, and just not ask their bank? I can see why listing some examples of banks with no fees might be useful and/or maintainable. It might also help out travellers by giving them some guidance to useful card if they are getting one for their travels, but I just can't see a reason to list every bank.

You can create anything, maintenance is the hard bit. I can think of numerous tables I could create easily with current info which would be out of date tomorrow. Bank fees change regularly, and can vary between products at one bank. --(WT-en) inas 00:59, 7 December 2009 (EST)

the point of this site is to provide travel information which is exactly what the table is - it is relevant to people who travel. the wiki format is the best format to have this information in as it changes reguarly. there are numerous articles on the web with this info - 541000 results in google for foreign transaction fees - obviously people care about it. i dont see how it hurts to include it in a separate article - it isnt getting in your way.

well, the point of this site is to provide relevant, accurate and timely travel information, where possible, and I just can't see us being able to give the required priority to maintaining such a comprehensive list of credit card and debit card fees. train and airline timetables are also relevant to travel, but we don't generally make large lists of them here, they change too regularly to be useful, and have the potential to mislead.

I still think the best advice would be to include what the best fees obtainable are, and point people towards a few examples.

However, if you like, go ahead and create the article with the table, I'll nominate it for deletion, and I'm sure you will get a few more opinions over at vfd. --(WT-en) inas 17:07, 7 December 2009 (EST)

I'm curious as to what other people think of this....I still think that this would be useful information - look at how many people brought up the issue of foreign transaction fees on forums of other travel sites. Train and airline tables arent necessary on this site because they are posted on other sites that are updated regularly by the operators. However, hotel prices change as often as daily, yet wikivoyage provides a field for providing such information, so the fact that the bank fee info may change does not give a good enough reason not to include this info.

Pre-Paid Cards

The excellent new discussion for these cards would be greatly helped by discussions of their risks and how to avoid them. Can anyone help? (WT-en) Hennejohn 21:21, 4 April 2012 (EDT)

Not a clear meaning

Under "Black Market Exchange" " In some countries the official exchange rate is fixed at a completely unreasonable or unrealistic rate. In these countries the black market will provide a much more realistic evaluation of the currency's worth and is practically unavoidable. For example, in 2007, the official exchange rate was 250 Zimbabwe dollars to the US dollar, while the black market rate reached 600,000. " The meaning is totally the opposite. Someone who knows about the Black Market could provide a better example to help make the argument valid. --(WT-en) Koff99 01:12, 20 June 2012 (EDT)

I'm not sure I understand your objection. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 07:46, 20 June 2012 (EDT)