Talk:LGBT Stockholm
Upgrade to usable[edit]
I have upgraded the status if this article from "outline" to "usable". Wikivoyage:Travel topic status says a travel topic is:
- "Outline:" Has at least an introduction (this can be as short as a single sentence explaining what the topic is) and an outline of headers laid out for the article, similar to standard Wikivoyage destination templates. Some of the sections of the outline may have content, but not all of them.
- "Usable:" Has at least a good overview of the topic, and some useful material under each heading.
Thus article meets the usable test, in my opinion. Ground Zero (talk) 21:29, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
Opera[edit]
While opera is not in itself an expression of LGBT identity, it is an element of LGBT culture, similar to ABBA, as previously discussed. Gay men's interest for opera has been subject to academic research in Sweden (see [1]). We can presume that at least some readers of tyhis article would be interested in a night at the opera. /Yvwv (talk) 12:19, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- I agree. It is something that would be of interest to many readers of this article. And I think that an LGBT article should be about more than bars and saunas, just as a useful "for children" article will be about more than just playgrounds and children's museums. Ground Zero (talk) 12:52, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- As a heterosexual man who's played a lot of operas in pits and has a long-term girlfriend who's a professional opera singer, my personal experience, though I haven't been to Sweden, is that there's nothing particularly gay about opera or opera fans, with the exception that many male opera singers are gay, though a fair number are not. And I think that article stretches things a lot by talking about divas, Tchaikowsky as "The most famous of all opera gays" and Oscar Wilde as a source of operas. The stereotypical diva - who is not at all necessarily an opera singer or opera fan, but someone who demands to be the center of attention at all times, is high maintenance, vain and a drama queen (and most of the opera singers I know actually aren't like that) - is at least as likely to be a heterosexual woman as a gay man, and though Tchaikowsky was a great opera composer, he is not the first composer any opera fan is likely to think of. And while someone may consider him "the world's leading gay composer", I would certainly say that title belongs to Schubert, whose operas are his weak point. Look, there are a lot of things that many gay folks like or do. Should we consider all forms of dance, jazz, Shakespeare, creative writing, hairdressing, clothes shopping, sports and perhaps circuses gay? When are we really reaching? (And by the way, the en.wikipedia article considered to be equivalent to that Swedish article is w:Queen (slang), for what that's worth). Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:36, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- The point is not who makes the opera, the point is who watches it. We're writing for travellers, not opera composers, singers, or musicians. No-one is saying that the audience is pre-dominantly gay, only that gay travellers are more likely than most to watch to attend an opera. It's of interest to LGBT travellers, so it merits mention in this article. Ground Zero (talk) 00:30, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- I totally disagree with this approach. Ditto with hockey. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:06, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- As a gay traveller, I find this article to be useful because it includes listings that are commonly of interest to LGBT people. Other people don't have to read the article if they don't want to. Coming back to our discussion of Chinese restaurants, kosher Chinese restaurants are not only for Jewish people. My favourite Moroccan restaurant, which sadly closed due to retirement, was kosher. But that didn't in any way limit its custom to kosher Jewish people, but it would have been a good thing to include in an article on Jewish Toronto because it was of particular interest to (but not exclusively for) kosher Jewish travellers. Ground Zero (talk) 01:18, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- Kosher-observant Jews who have to keep kosher to follow religious laws have a limited set of restaurants and food shops to choose from. That's a need, not merely an interest. I think you could mention non-exclusive things many LGBT folks like, but I feel like complete listings should be in Stockholm district guides. But I suppose somewhat of a counterexample would be the "for children" guides that do have duplicates of listings; however, the attractions are covered differently, focusing on the tastes, attention spans and needs of children. But go ahead and develop this the way you want, and people can look at the result when it's more fleshed out and see how it reads and seems then. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:29, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- It's a fair point about kosher-observant Jews having a need. I still haven't a reasonable argument for not having an article for LGBT travellers that gathers the information most relevant to them in one place. Am I wrong to find this article useful? Ground Zero (talk) 01:59, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- No, I just wonder about the scope of it, but I hope you get that I've decided to just stop concerning myself with such details while you're developing the article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:50, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- I think that I've taken it as far as someone who doesn't live there and has never visited there can take it. Let's hope that someone with direct experience visits and decides to take it further. Writing the LGBT Toronto article was a breeze compared to improving this article. I hope that I don't have to spend so much time defending that article as it takes away from constructive work. Ground Zero (talk) 02:54, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- I'll refrain from looking at that article for now. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:05, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- I think that I've taken it as far as someone who doesn't live there and has never visited there can take it. Let's hope that someone with direct experience visits and decides to take it further. Writing the LGBT Toronto article was a breeze compared to improving this article. I hope that I don't have to spend so much time defending that article as it takes away from constructive work. Ground Zero (talk) 02:54, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- No, I just wonder about the scope of it, but I hope you get that I've decided to just stop concerning myself with such details while you're developing the article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:50, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- It's a fair point about kosher-observant Jews having a need. I still haven't a reasonable argument for not having an article for LGBT travellers that gathers the information most relevant to them in one place. Am I wrong to find this article useful? Ground Zero (talk) 01:59, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- Kosher-observant Jews who have to keep kosher to follow religious laws have a limited set of restaurants and food shops to choose from. That's a need, not merely an interest. I think you could mention non-exclusive things many LGBT folks like, but I feel like complete listings should be in Stockholm district guides. But I suppose somewhat of a counterexample would be the "for children" guides that do have duplicates of listings; however, the attractions are covered differently, focusing on the tastes, attention spans and needs of children. But go ahead and develop this the way you want, and people can look at the result when it's more fleshed out and see how it reads and seems then. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:29, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- As a gay traveller, I find this article to be useful because it includes listings that are commonly of interest to LGBT people. Other people don't have to read the article if they don't want to. Coming back to our discussion of Chinese restaurants, kosher Chinese restaurants are not only for Jewish people. My favourite Moroccan restaurant, which sadly closed due to retirement, was kosher. But that didn't in any way limit its custom to kosher Jewish people, but it would have been a good thing to include in an article on Jewish Toronto because it was of particular interest to (but not exclusively for) kosher Jewish travellers. Ground Zero (talk) 01:18, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- I totally disagree with this approach. Ditto with hockey. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:06, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- The point is not who makes the opera, the point is who watches it. We're writing for travellers, not opera composers, singers, or musicians. No-one is saying that the audience is pre-dominantly gay, only that gay travellers are more likely than most to watch to attend an opera. It's of interest to LGBT travellers, so it merits mention in this article. Ground Zero (talk) 00:30, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- As a heterosexual man who's played a lot of operas in pits and has a long-term girlfriend who's a professional opera singer, my personal experience, though I haven't been to Sweden, is that there's nothing particularly gay about opera or opera fans, with the exception that many male opera singers are gay, though a fair number are not. And I think that article stretches things a lot by talking about divas, Tchaikowsky as "The most famous of all opera gays" and Oscar Wilde as a source of operas. The stereotypical diva - who is not at all necessarily an opera singer or opera fan, but someone who demands to be the center of attention at all times, is high maintenance, vain and a drama queen (and most of the opera singers I know actually aren't like that) - is at least as likely to be a heterosexual woman as a gay man, and though Tchaikowsky was a great opera composer, he is not the first composer any opera fan is likely to think of. And while someone may consider him "the world's leading gay composer", I would certainly say that title belongs to Schubert, whose operas are his weak point. Look, there are a lot of things that many gay folks like or do. Should we consider all forms of dance, jazz, Shakespeare, creative writing, hairdressing, clothes shopping, sports and perhaps circuses gay? When are we really reaching? (And by the way, the en.wikipedia article considered to be equivalent to that Swedish article is w:Queen (slang), for what that's worth). Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:36, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
Women's hockey[edit]
Here is why I am adding women's hockey to the article. Not all women's hockey players are lesbian. Not all women's hockey fans are lesbian. It's because many lesbians are fans of women's hockey an may be interested in seeing a game when they visit Stockholm. Because this article is intended to provide information that is useful to LGBT travellers, listing women's hockey bis appropriate. Here are some links that help explain why this is the case: [2], [3], [4] Ground Zero (talk) 00:40, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
Royal Palace[edit]
And I've added the Royal Palace, which is of interest to LGBT travellers because it was home to w:Christina, Queen of Sweden. This listing, unlike the one in Stockholm/Gamla stan, focuses on this interesting bit of LGBT history. Ground Zero (talk) 10:09, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- Gustav V's preference for men, with associated scandals, could also be of interest. /Yvwv (talk) 00:48, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
Vote for deletion[edit]
There was a discussion here on deleting this article in January-February 2020. The result was "keep". Ground Zero (talk) 01:32, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
Link for discussion[edit]
This was just added to "Connect":
- GayTravelr — A gay guide for Stockholm
There is a rule against listing or linking to other guides: what not to link to. Is there a good reason to make an exception for this guide, or should we continue to go by the concept that Wikivoyage articles should have all the information a reader would need in a travel guide article? On the face of it, I would think we should not list or link to this guide, but make an argument. I'd particularly solicit the opinion of User:FiercyPillow, who added this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:01, 20 August 2023 (UTC)