Talk:Northern Sámi phrasebook

Naming

Shouldn't this be called Northern Sámi Phrasebook? There are numerous Sámi languages and Northern Sámi is only one of them. Bobbbcat (talk) 00:35, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps. On the other hand Northern Sámi is the language spoken in most areas where Sámi is the majority language, and understood by many Sámi not having it as mother tongue. I suppose at least some of the phrases could be appreciated also by speakers of the other languages. I suppose moving the page but keeping the redirect might be the best solution. --LPfi (talk) 14:47, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

I did so. –LPfi (talk) 13:09, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Authorities

Xepheid wrote "Expect the authorities to know about as little Sámi as you" and ThunderingTyphoons! wondered "Are there no Sami police officers, then?".

I suppose that there are no mechanisms in place to get Sámi officers placed in the Sámi area, and that few of the non-Sámi learn any Sámi languages. I know there are problems in finding e.g. healthcare workers with Sámi proficiency, and I suppose also all schools for police officers are in the south. There are Sámi in the border guard, which takes care of some police work in Lapland (I knew one).

The main reason not to learn the authority phrases in Sámi is that nobody expects you to speak Sámi as a foreigner, and that you are much better off using your English to have a meaningful dialogue than trying to use a phrasebook to communicate with somebody that may or may not know the language in question. For Finnish, Norwegian, Swedish or Russian, you at least know the police knows the language in your phrasebook, while in the first three English should still be preferred (Russian may be irrelevant – I don't know to what extent Northern Sámi is understood by Russian Sámi).

–LPfi (talk) 13:09, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Since three (or four) countries are covered by this phrasebook, each may have a different approach to how/whether they recruit from the Sami community, and whether Sami officers end up working in Sami areas. Having officers from all communities and walks of life is an important aspect of policing by consent, which I'd have thought the three democracies at least would be interested in, but perhaps that's not how it works over there.

At any rate, since, as far as the visitor is concerned, a police officer is a police officer, it's probably best to edit the Authority section along the lines of "See the equivalent section in the Norwegian, Swedish, Finnish, (Russian) phrasebooks, or just use English."--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:28, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

It is really a shame how Finland, Norway and Sweden treated the Sámi, and I was really shocked when I realised how late the language policy was changed into something close to decent. The authority issue is probably an example of not all problems having been solved. I suppose the problem today largely is about authorities just ignoring the specific needs of minorities – if there is nobody to be recruited, they count it as a force majeure, rather than a reason to think one more round about their procedures. Yes, I am deeply worried, partly because also the Swedish speaking Finns are affected, although to a lesser extent, as we have a much better representation. Treating minorities well used to be something everybody in charge would swear by, but forget while going about their daily business. Now there are the True Finns, Sverigedemokraterna and the like, winning 20+ % in the elections and some of them openly questioning such principles. I don't know how they see the Sámi, but as what was seen as common decency is questioned, this could affect also them.

I edited the Authority section along the suggested lines, although I recommended just using English.

–LPfi (talk) 09:47, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Pronunciation

This phrasebook uses IPA, which most of our readers don't know. The best solution would be to link to someone pronouncing all these words, but failing that, an effort should be made to use pseudo-transliterations. I would support also including IPA, but I'd have to say that if I wanted to learn a language, I'd much rather spend time finding out how to pronounce it than learn to read IPA. IPA is of most use to linguists and professional classical singers (who have to pronounce every language they sing in very exactly). Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:58, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Did we reach a consensus on allowing sound samples? If so, perhaps Xepheid knows somebody who could pronounce them for uploading on Commons. I suppose our policy is to still provide the pseudo-pronunciations. Are the ones given at Wikivoyage:Pseudo-phoneticization guide adequate? They could be tweaked, but there is always the risk that a "x in xyz" is pronounced differently in different parts of the English speaking world. –LPfi (talk) 11:25, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

I don't think we ever reached a consensus on the use of audio in phrasebooks. Pretty frustrating, as I do think there was significant support for it.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:34, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Audio is allowable in phrasebooks. Look at Wikivoyage:Image policy#Other media:

"We therefore do not use other media files like digital sound clips or video images, with one exception: audio files for pronunciation may be used in phrasebooks."

I'm not sure we came to a consensus on how best to use audio files, but it's not a violation of Wikivoyage policy to use them. In terms of the adequacy or inadequacy of pseudo-phoneticization is concerned, it would be great if enough people know when things will be radically off for at least Americans and Britons. I don't know Sami at all, but I will know when words are pronounced radically differently in parts of the U.S. than in parts of the British Isles I've been to (can, man, scan, to take 3 examples, or most anything with "short o" like bot, cot, dot, hot, jot, etc.) Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:56, 11 February 2021 (UTC)