User talk:ITZQing

"Misspelled"

Please don't use "misspelled" as edit summary, when you in fact are replacing one spelling of a name with another. It also seems you are using an half-automated tool to do these edits on projects where you have no other contributions, and hardly know of discussions on the matter. This is very much unwanted on several projects.

If you want to do this here, please present your plan in the Pub and wait until there is consensus on doing the changes.

–LPfi (talk) 14:33, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Ok, I take the suggestion, but what justification do I have to justify what I did? And I'm not using automated tools (aka. bot). ITZQing (talk) 14:42, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Wikivoyage, like the rest of Wikimedias, has a lot of misspellings of Ukrainian cities, especially the city of Odesa.

I'm just cleaning up these misspellings, "maintenance cleanup" shouldn't be considered a "Disruptive editing" right? I'll keep making edits, and you can supervise me, give me suggestions, or help me clean up. ITZQing (talk) 14:54, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

These aren't misspellings. They are alternative spellings. Please take it to the pub before continuing. I am leaving the keyboard now, but the discussion should give me plenty of time to return (tomorrow night?) and answer any further questions.

I note that you indeed changed the spelling in a quote on Wikiquotes. If you had done this with due consideration, you should have noted that it was a quote, and that the person quoted indeed used the spelling you then "corrected". Over here you did a dozen edits in a dozen minutes around 14:00. Whether you use a bot is immaterial, you are doing bot-like edits.

The justifications for your edits you have to find yourself (you say "maintenance cleanup", but these aren't misspellings, so in what way they are cleanup you have to explain yourself). I haven't checked all your edits and I don't know what you consider misspellings (Russian spellings of Ukrainian places? All of them? Also in historic context (and in quotes)? something else?). On most projects, changing from one spelling to another is frown upon, except in specific situations. Without knowing the project you are editing on, you cannot know what those circumstances are, and thus such edits are usually not welcome.

–LPfi (talk) 15:04, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

My edits are being withdrawn on a large scale, and the other party's reason is "don't cancel the Russian language", which is very strange, it has nothing to do with the Russian language, and some are even errors in proper nouns and domain names.

I hope it will be dealt with fairly, thank you ITZQing (talk) 06:12, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

I was going to say the exact same thing LPfi said at the beginning of this thread. "Odessa” is a not a "non-modern misspelling": it was until very recently (i.e., following the full-scale Russian attack on Ukraine last year) the long-running standard English spelling. Exactly the same is true of "Kiev." You are irritating people with your polemical, false edit summaries. Go ahead and continue making name changes that are already part of established Wikivoyage consensus, but stop making tendentious claims about the reasons for them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:32, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

The main entry name is the accepted correct name, no one is offended, what is really outraged is the behavior of those who have been using and spreading the wrong old name. "Odessa" can refer to Odessa in Canada, Odessa in the United States, and New Odessa in Brazil, but it is definitely not Odesa, Ukraine. These names may have been used by colonial securities in history, but it does not mean that they are still used now. Please be respectful and please do not confuse.

As well as stop using old names in place of new ones. Alexei (talk) 08:49, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

It's a vicious cycle where you use the wrong old name and people see it and follow you. Then you feel that there are many people who use it, so you will continue to use the old name, and then your goal has been achieved? The old name replaced the new?

I hope you will think about these issues from a rational and human perspective, and don’t forget humanistic care, lest you accuse others of being robots like a "BOT". Alexei (talk) 08:53, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

The ones who are really pissed off are the locals, they can't even decide what their English name is, Ukrainians want to call themselves "Oleksii", but you guys want to call him "Alexei". Ukrainians like to call the place where they live "Odesa", but you have to call it "Odessa".

You're not making a travel brochure, you're making a racist brochure to piss off the locals. If anyone sees your wrong name and it's used locally. Alexei (talk) 08:57, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Don't live in your own world, the old name has become less used, "Odessa"? The name does not direct people into Ukraine, whether you use Google Maps, Apple Maps, or store-bought maps. Alexei (talk) 09:00, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

You accuse me of being tendentious, so if you continue to use the old nouns, are you not tendentious? Is it "correct" or "reasonable"? Alexei (talk) 09:06, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Are you motivated by improving a travel guide in the interest of travelers or engaging in extremely-worded polemics? If you're motivated to improve a travel guide in the interest of travelers, you came to the right place. Otherwise, you are in the wrong place and should argue at Wikipedia or some other non-travel site, not here. Wikivoyage has its own WV:Naming conventions. We have chosen in most cases to use Ukrainian spellings as the primary spellings of Ukrainian cities, for one reason only: because they are now the most used spellings in English. Everything else I think you touched on above (I glanced briefly at it and will not subject myself to reading it in full) is probably irrelevant to the names that we use in this travel guide. And we retain the previously most used spellings as alternate spellings, again, in the interest of travelers. I will not engage in a discussion on your screed above, except to say that it is completely understandable and reasonable that emotions are running high during the atrocious Russian attack on Ukraine's existence and people, but again, this is a travel guide, not a place to engage in political arguments or posturing. Meanwhile, you should read Wikivoyage:Be fair#Political disputes and think carefully about what your motivation is for being here, because if you think you're on a Crusade, you may not be here very long. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:35, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, but how should common names be decided? Modern names are pretty much used all around me. But you default to the "old name" as the "common name" to judge. I am of course improving travel guides for the benefit of travelers, so I don't want travelers to get lost using wrong translations, as I said above, there are many places on Earth named "Odessa", but not in Ukraine.

All my irrationality is just in response to your so-called "anger", which is not anger but "beating back".

If you read WV:Naming conventions carefully, you will find that you are looking for the wrong object to vent, if you think you're on a Crusade, you may not be here very long. Alexei (talk) 10:11, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm curious, how did you come up with "Odessa" being a common name? After all, "Odessa" often does not refer to cities in Ukraine, because there are many cities called "Odessa" in the United States, Canada, and Brazil. And it is now rare to use "Odessa" to refer to the Ukrainian city of Odesa.

If you want to uphold the rules, first you have to follow the rules yourself. Alexei (talk) 10:16, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

• you are distorting things here, i was me who came up with this common name which I used all my life and won"t give up using. I will abide consensus as I always do. you should do it too, that's the Wikiviyage way. Ibaman (talk) 10:22, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

  "Odessa" can refer to Odessa in Canada, Odessa in the United States, and New Odessa in Brazil, but it is definitely not Odesa, Ukraine.

  This is my opinion, please don't suddenly announce consensus. Alexei (talk) 10:29, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

consensus is being discussed in the Pub. You seem very forcefully motivated here. Please chill out. Please mind the original Odessa Mama's prominence and original status about the above. Ibaman (talk) 10:34, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it is a proper noun, I will not edit it.

Like a biscuit brand called "Constantinople", I wouldn't assume it has a lot to do with "Istanbul" (this is an example, the brand doesn't actually exist, but in real life There are many such real cases). Alexei (talk) 10:39, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

"There are many places called Odessa." There are also many places called London, Paris, Rome, Berlin, Amsterdam and so on. And that's why we have disambiguation pages and has absolutely nothing at all to do with what name is most common in English or the need to include alternate names in articles. We no longer "default" to Odessa for the city in Ukraine, but that's because the spelling with one S became more common in English since last year. And the idea that a spelling change that's so recent should cause a travel guide to pretend the previous spelling never existed is obviously not in the service of travelers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:40, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

and by the way, the example is apt. Click on the searching lens above, type "Constantinople", see where it will take you. This is travel guide logic, yes. Ibaman (talk) 19:04, 9 June 2023 (UTC)