User talk:Skyjjjjjjzzh

Xinjiang conflicts

Hello, Skyjjjjjjzzh! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

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Thanks for your contributions to articles about places in China!

I did revert your edit on violent attacks in Xinjiang because of what felt like issues of fairness to me. If you would like to argue that we should have one-sided warnings that blame only "rioters" and not the Chinese government for violence in Xinjiang (just for example - what does "social control" consist of? we actually know a lot about that, and to put it mildly, it's not very non-violent), and you think that's fair under the Wikivoyage:Be fair guidelines, please start a thread at Talk:Xinjiang and present your arguments there. Otherwise, perhaps you'd like to find more neutral wordings for a warning for travelers.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:50, 1 November 2019 (UTC) Hi, I just want to add some information to warn visitors that Xinjiang is not such a peaceful places to stay. Since I am a mainland Chinese resident, the information I can see is only the reactions of China. You can help me to add to it and add more informations about the causes and the ways to avoid the conflicts.

Thanks, --Skyjjjjjjzzh (talk) 23:36, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate that.

I'm not in China, but what we're looking for is language that favors one side as little as possible but is factual (and not necessarily strictly neutral, but fair based on known facts), simply presenting the situation as it is, with special reference to any danger to visitors. I think the best way to do it is basically to mention that there has been violence between Xinjiang residents who oppose the government and police and security forces (and here's where specific dates you cited come into play), and that while foreigners are not usually caught up in such violence, it is safest to steer clear of any demonstrations if possible. I would also add that Xinjiang is much more tightly monitored than most other parts of China, so visitors should be aware that they, along with everyone else in Xinjiang, should expect to be surveilled by security cameras on the streets and by other means at virtually all times. I'd add that there is at least one case I've read about of a Muslim foreigner, a Kazakh who is a Kazakh citizen from Kazakhstan and not Xinjiang, who was detained for months without trial or any clear reason being given at a prison camp in Xinjiang, so a special warning that Xinjiang may be unsafe for Muslims to visit is in order. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:57, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

I don't think that's true for all Muslims. So far, the Chinese government hasn't gone after the Hui ethnic group, who are the largest Muslim ethnic group in China. My take is that the Chinese government is more concerned about separatism than Islam per se, and because many Uyghur independence activists are based in Kazakhstan, with which the Uyghurs share close cultural and linguistic ties, that makes the Chinese government wary of ethnic Kazakhs. So I think warning all Muslims to stay away from Xinjiang is overboard, but perhaps a reasonable warning will be for people belonging to Turkic ethnic groups to be more wary. The dog2 (talk) 00:27, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

I will try to improve my edit. Thanks for your advice! If you have any different ideas, please discuss on your talkpages or on the talkpage of Xinjiang. Thank you again! --Skyjjjjjjzzh (talk) 00:41, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Thank you! The dog2, I take your point on the Hui people and on Turkic people being of particular concern to China because the Uighurs and Kazakhs are Turkic, but do you really think it would be safe for Arabs, Malays or Indonesians to visit Xinjiang? It's probably safe for them to visit other parts of China including Ningxia, but I would have to think the Chinese government might be concerned about foreign Muslims being in Xinjiang. You don't think so? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:54, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

I haven't been to Xinjiang so take my view with a pinch of salt, but I highly doubt the Chinese government is going to go after them if they're not visibly proselytising (which will get you into trouble regardless of what religion it is, and not just Islam). Of course, things may change given that Mahathir has thrown his support behind the Uyghur independence movement, but Jokowi hasn't done so, and neither have the leaders of the Arab countries. Turkish people may need to be a little more careful since Turkey has given refuge to many Uyghur separatists, but still, I think the last think the Chinese leadership want is to create an international incident for no reason. Doing so will certainly hurt rather than help their geopolitical goals. In fact, there is a Hui community in Xinjiang too, and the government hasn't gone after them. So in short, I'll say that if you're a Muslim tourist who is there just doing the regular touristy things, you'll be fine, but you should just be careful not to do anything that arouses the suspicion of the authorities.

As for safety, I will say that there is a general impression among Chinese people that Xinjiang is exceptionally crime ridden, and it is not specifically an Uyghur thing; Han people from Xinjiang have a very bad reputation among the Chinese. Of course, this is anecdotal, but whenever I've visited China, I've noticed that it is the tourists form Xinjiang who are usually the worst behaved, and those ones I've observed were most certainly Han; they were speaking to each other in Mandarin and not Uyghur. The dog2 (talk) 01:16, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

I don't know what language they were speaking among themselves would be conclusive proof, but I take your points. As for an international incident, though, detaining one or more Kazakh citizens without charge in "reeducation" camps is already an international incident, so... Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:18, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: Could you maybe point me to the article on that incident. My hunch is that he probably did something that caught the attention of the authorities. And keep in mind that there is strong support for Uyghur separatism in Kazakhstan. So while I probably would have gotten away with doing the same thing, the fact that he is Kazakh might have made the authorities more suspicious, which resulted in him, whether justified or not, being detained. The dog2 (talk) 02:36, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

You can find this story in different places: https://www.rferl.org/a/kazakh-recounts-reeducation-in-western-chinese-camp/29194106.html I remembered correctly that he was a Kazakh citizen, though not yet when he was detained. The thing I didn't remember is that he had emigrated from Xinjiang, and I know that China doesn't recognize dual citizenship, so that is at least part of the reason they detained this man. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:52, 2 November 2019 (UTC)