Talk:Cambodian cuisine

Too defensive?

I'm glad this article was started and thank those who have been working on it. I wonder, though, whether the tone of the article is more defensive than is really of optimal usefulness to travelers, and whether it should just be more descriptive. Saying that some people find it inferior to the cuisines of neighboring peoples doesn't help someone visiting Cambodia to have the best experience, but concentrating on directing them to what's most delicious and where they can find it does. What do you all think? Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:13, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

I think some comparisons to Thai and Vietnamese cuisines are useful so visitors know what to expect, but we should not comment about which cuisine is superior or inferior to others. After all, that is a very subjective thing. The dog2 (talk) 16:48, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Exactly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:45, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

My thoughts are the same as The dog2's. To be fair, I only started this article because there was a good de.voy article, and I don't really know much about Cambodian cuisine. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:09, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

As a Wikipedian, I'm not completely familiar with the accepted writing style on Wikivoyage, but I do think it's useful to have a sort of a disclaimer that warns the readers to take most of what's being said about Cambodian cuisine in the mainstream media with a grain of salt and addresses some of their own potential preconceived notions. The bias had even crept into the article when the similarities between Cambodian and Thai/Vietnamese cuisine were explained solely by a heavy Thai and Vietnamese influence when these things are rarely a one-way street. Of course, if measuring up against other cuisines is all the article does, it's not very helpful. Turaids (talk) 13:29, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

If it's really essential to do this, it can be dismissed at much lesser length. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:17, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Well, before me the paragraph looked like this and it was translated from a German article that even bears a good article badge. Before that, I worked on the Cambodian cuisine Wikipedia article, where the comparisons and references to Thai and Vietnamese cuisines were endless, so it runs much deeper than you might think, hence the somewhat lengthier explanation. Turaids (talk) 20:35, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

I know what the article looked like, and I didn't say you didn't improve it, but this is not Wikipedia: it's Wikivoyage, which has a specific travel focus. I'm going to try my hand at an edited version and will suggest it below. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:18, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: Is it better now? I rewrote it in a more down-to-earth style, which is still not how many of the other cuisine articles are written throwing around subjective words like "best", "great" and "excellent", but I guess it's on them. Turaids (talk) 00:03, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I think it's much better. I think it's completely fine to say which things are great, though. Wikivoyage isn't supposed to be neutral, only fair. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:49, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Sure, as long as it doesn't amplify the already existing bias by allowing to shower certain cuisines with excessive praise and put down others as "not the strongest link" or "stolen from their three neighbours, but only worse". Then it's not neutral, nor fair. Turaids (talk) 12:14, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Regarding the "stolen from their three neighbours, but only worse", that was a machine translated text when I translated it from de.wikivoyage and I should've copyedited it. In saying that, when translating other articles from de.voy, I've noticed that many of their articles are written from a perspective of someone from Central Europe, in particular, Germany, Austria and Switzerland and not from a global perspective. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:30, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm sure it sounds just as unflattering in German, so I don't really blame you. All it takes is one bad apple to spoil the whole barrel. The same sometimes happens in Wikipedia when information from a single poorly written article in one of the big languages gets disseminated into numerous others. There are two articles that I think are a worthwhile read (Why travelers dislike Khmer food and Dispelling Cambodian Cuisine Myths — It's Not 'Mild Thai'!, if you're still curious about the topic. Turaids (talk) 16:20, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

I completely agree that that kind of language is unacceptable. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:33, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Suggested edits

Current:

Cambodian cuisine is probably one of the most underrated and misunderstood cuisines in Asia. At the core of it lies the Khmer cuisine, but Cambodian cuisine also includes the culinary traditions of other people living in the country, such as the Kula and Chams. Over time, Cambodian cuisine has been influenced by Indian, Chinese, in particular Teochew cuisine, and more recently French cuisine. Because of the shared influences and historic interaction, it has many similarities with the neighbouring Thai, Lao, and Vietnamese cuisines, but, overall, Cambodian dishes are more aromatic, less spicy and less sweet than Thai food and less salty than Vietnamese food

Suggested edit:

Cambodia has a unique cuisine. Based on a core of Khmer cuisine, it has also drawn upon the culinary traditions of other people living in the country, such as the Kula and Chams. Over time, Cambodian cuisine has been influenced by Indian, Chinese, in particular Teochew cuisine, and more recently French cuisine. Because of the shared influences and historic interaction, it has many similarities with Thai, Lao, and Vietnamese cuisines, but, overall, Cambodian dishes are more aromatic, less spicy and less sweet than Thai food and less salty than Vietnamese food.

Current:

When it comes to Cambodian food, opinions largely differ. While the Thai and Vietnamese influences on Cambodian cuisine are undeniable, it is unlikely that the Khmer Empire, which also covered large parts of what is now Thailand, Laos, and Southern Vietnam, would have not left its culinary imprint on them as well. Some believe the Cambodian kitchen to be an inferior mixture of its neighbours, and the preference for many Cambodian restaurants abroad to serve the better-known Chinese, Thai and Vietnamese dishes has definitely reinforced this stereotype. And to make matters worse, businesses in mainstream tourist areas in Cambodia also have the tendency to try and cater to travellers already familiar with the Thai and Vietnamese flavours, which means that many visitors might have not actually had authentic Cambodian food even while in Cambodia.

Add the portrayal of Cambodian food in the media in the early 2000s and it becomes clear that Cambodian cuisine has an image problem. Much of it has been told by Westerners who often lacked the historic and cultural context and oversensationalized certain aspects (the fried tarantulas, insects and balut to name a few). Under the Khmer Rouge, much of the country's culinary documentation was destroyed and many of the educated Cambodians, including chefs, were either killed or fled the country. Until recently, very few quality Cambodian cookbooks had been published and it has lacked the concentrated effort that propelled Thai cuisine to worldwide acclaim. While the new generation of Cambodian chefs both in Cambodia and abroad have been slowly rediscovering their culinary heritage, Cambodian cuisine still has a lot to do to reclaim its narrative and establish itself among its culinary heavyweight neighbours.

To be honest, I'm having trouble figuring out what to do with this. It's the "Understand" section, and instead of summarizing the style, it focuses on things that won't enable the reader to understand it. If it were up to me, I'd put this aside with the idea of using the second paragraph but only a bit of the first, and would start with a paragraph that explained the basics of the style. w:Cambodian cuisine is much more helpful to the reader who wants to understand the style. So as not to reinvent the wheel, here is some directly relevant text from that article:

Cambodian cuisine is an umbrella term for the cuisines of all ethnic groups in Cambodia, whereas Khmer cuisine refers specifically to the cuisine of the ethnic Khmers. Due to historic interaction and shared influences, modern Cambodian cuisine has many similarities with its neighbouring cuisines of Thailand, Vietnam and Laos.

Khmer cuisine can be classified into peasant, elite and royal cuisine, although the difference between the royal and popular cuisine is not as pronounced as in the case of Thailand and Laos. The royal and elite dishes use more varied and higher quality ingredients, and contain more meat, while the peasant food is made from simpler and more accessible ingredients.

Because of Cambodia's geographic location, rice and fish, especially freshwater fish, are the two most important sources of nutrients in the Cambodian diet. Rice is a staple food generally eaten at every meal.

Nowadays, the flavour principles of many Khmer dishes, such as sour fish soups, stews and coconut-based curries, including fish amok, are similar to Central Thai cuisine, although Khmer dishes contain much less chilli and sugar and make greater use of aromatic spices, such as cardamom, star anise, cloves, nutmeg, lemongrass, ginger, galangal, coriander, and kaffir lime leaves.

There's also a list of ingredients, then dishes.

What do we hope to achieve with this article? It seems to me, there's no way it will ever be as good as the Wikipedia article. The only way it could be more useful for travelers than w:Cambodian cuisine is if it were to concentrate on which destinations to go to to get the best x, y and z; what to expect the experience of having a meal in a Cambodian restaurant or someone's home will be like; and what manners may be expected from diners. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:37, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the suggestions! All cuisines are unique in their own way, so I don't think saying that Cambodian is also unique adds anything. If it's okay for Vietnamese cuisine, for example, to be introduced as "one of Southeast Asia's great cuisines", then I don't see an issue with the way Cambodian is introduced now. And if the "Understand" chapter is indeed only for summarizing the article and not giving context then I don't think it's a suitable title. As for reusing parts I've already written for Wikipedia, I consciously avoided that, because, as you said, this is not Wikipedia. I was planning to rewrite some of it to better suit the lighter and more travel-focused Wikivoyage style, plus include authentic destinations, which makes the "don't go to Pub Street expecting actual Cambodian food" disclaimer even more relevant. Turaids (talk) 10:05, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

I would avoid copypasting. Although it is under a free licence, copypasting can cause WV:SEO issues and duplication isn't a good thing in the first place. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:15, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

But what's more useful to readers of a travel guide? Extended discourse about how a cuisine is "underrated" and "has an image problem" or descriptions of its distinctive/typical flavors, ingredients and dishes? I am still very unclear on what would make this article more useful to travelers than the Wikipedia article, and if it can't be, is there a good reason to have it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:46, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Why does it have to be one or the other? No offence, but all Wikivoyage cuisine articles I've seen so far are less useful than their Wikipedia counterparts, so unless Wikivoyage stops simply recycling Wikipedia and starts taking different angles on things that's sadly how it's going to be. For one, I was planning on writing about different Cambodian restaurants and food experiences. Turaids (talk) 19:32, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

I've previously expressed skepticism about some other Wikivoyage cuisine articles, too. Maybe it's time to take stock of them all. I'll restart discussion at Talk:Food and drink#"Cuisine" articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:43, 6 February 2022 (UTC)