Talk:Clinton (New York)
Add topicLatest comment: 11 years ago by LtPowers in topic Merge with Utica
Is anyone opposed to merging this with Utica? None of the content here has been updated in 5 years. Apocheir (talk) 18:25, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- Looking at the map, Clinton is several miles away from Utica. The rate of content updating is irrelevant as long as the content is still valid. LtPowers (talk) 21:03, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- There was a mention of Hamilton College in the Utica article, so I stated that Clinton was among the suburbs also covered in that article. If Clinton isn't going to be covered in the Utica article, that listing needs to be moved here, which I will do. That said, the question would be whether there can ever be enough content in this article for it to merit being separate from Utica, and since I haven't been to Clinton since the summer of 1971, I wouldn't know. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:57, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- I wasn't aware we based such things on the amount of content. The question is whether Clinton is a distinct destination from Utica, and I think it is; for example, the instructions for "Getting In" are quite different. LtPowers (talk) 18:42, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- You could say the same thing about Inwood and Spanish Harlem, yet a decision was made to include them in a larger Upper Manhattan article. I would say that decision was based entirely on the amount of content and the likelihood of visits by tourists. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:17, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- Districtification is a whole other kettle of fish. LtPowers (talk) 14:51, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
- Unexplanatory answer. Besides, there are loads of other examples that could be given. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:43, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
- Districts have to completely cover the land area of a city, so the number of districts is dictated by the amount of material available for each district. That doesn't apply for separate communities, when tossing two different municipalities together is nothing more than a matter of convenience. LtPowers (talk) 20:49, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think that's the issue. There is more than enough material available to cover Spanish Harlem separately from Washington Heights, which is not even contiguous with it. And the question is whether there will ever be enough material to fill this article. It might serve the traveler better for this to be a section of the Utica guide. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:32, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
- By the way, I'm not really taking a position on whether this article should be merged to Utica, but I think the issue here is different than it is with Rome (New York), which is larger and further from Utica (and which I therefore opposed merging with the Utica article), and I would be inclined to defer to Apocheir's judgment since s/he is quite familiar and current with the area. What I am arguing, really, is that it is precisely the case that when a location is too small and lacking in independent interest to be able to support its own article, it is sensible to merge it into the article of the nearest city or town that does have enough possible content to support an article. But I don't know for sure that that's true in this case, and if there is a possibility of there being enough content for an article on Clinton, New York, then it should remain separate from the Utica article. I just regret that we can't agree on the principle involved, and I can't make sense out of your point of view because there's always a line beyond which a separate article won't work. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:56, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
- Are there other cases where we've merged a distant suburb into an article for a larger community? I'm just saying that on the map, these look like two different communities, not one community divided by an arbitrary political boundary. LtPowers (talk) 18:11, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
- I'm sure there are, but Clinton is not distant from Utica. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:32, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
- It's several miles, and there's nothing much between them. That tells me they're separate communities. Now if we were talking about New Hartford, that'd be a different story. LtPowers (talk) 19:56, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
- Is there still countryside between Clinton and Utica? I don't know, because my memories are from 1972 (not 1971, I misremembered, but same difference, really). Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:37, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
- Satellite imagery shows some countryside along Route 12B between New Hartford and Clinton. Look, I understand where you're coming from; I'm not one to slavishly follow municipal boundaries in deciding where to draw our lines. But Clinton looks to me like a separate community from Utica. I could be wrong, but we'd really need a local to tell us, I think. LtPowers (talk) 23:12, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
- That still wouldn't resolve the question of whether the articles should be merged, in my opinion. I'm wondering how many bars and eateries there are that cater to Hamilton College students. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:26, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
- Okay, but why would you want to put two different communities in the same article? LtPowers (talk) 00:36, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
- If all the content for one of the communities would be covered in 3 sentences, there doesn't seem to be a point in it having its own article. There are plenty of articles that cover "nearby communities" in some section. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:47, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
- Seems like Hamilton College athletics alone would get us over 3 sentences. LtPowers (talk) 01:08, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
- Probably. That was an extreme example. One thing in the back of my mind is whether a Guide article for Clinton could ever be worth featuring. But that's putting the cart way out in front of the horse. We agree, I think, that it's fine not to merge this article with Utica for now, in case someone wants to add more to it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:10, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
- Seems like Hamilton College athletics alone would get us over 3 sentences. LtPowers (talk) 01:08, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
- If all the content for one of the communities would be covered in 3 sentences, there doesn't seem to be a point in it having its own article. There are plenty of articles that cover "nearby communities" in some section. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:47, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
- Okay, but why would you want to put two different communities in the same article? LtPowers (talk) 00:36, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
- That still wouldn't resolve the question of whether the articles should be merged, in my opinion. I'm wondering how many bars and eateries there are that cater to Hamilton College students. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:26, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
- Satellite imagery shows some countryside along Route 12B between New Hartford and Clinton. Look, I understand where you're coming from; I'm not one to slavishly follow municipal boundaries in deciding where to draw our lines. But Clinton looks to me like a separate community from Utica. I could be wrong, but we'd really need a local to tell us, I think. LtPowers (talk) 23:12, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
- Is there still countryside between Clinton and Utica? I don't know, because my memories are from 1972 (not 1971, I misremembered, but same difference, really). Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:37, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
- It's several miles, and there's nothing much between them. That tells me they're separate communities. Now if we were talking about New Hartford, that'd be a different story. LtPowers (talk) 19:56, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
- I'm sure there are, but Clinton is not distant from Utica. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:32, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
- Are there other cases where we've merged a distant suburb into an article for a larger community? I'm just saying that on the map, these look like two different communities, not one community divided by an arbitrary political boundary. LtPowers (talk) 18:11, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
- By the way, I'm not really taking a position on whether this article should be merged to Utica, but I think the issue here is different than it is with Rome (New York), which is larger and further from Utica (and which I therefore opposed merging with the Utica article), and I would be inclined to defer to Apocheir's judgment since s/he is quite familiar and current with the area. What I am arguing, really, is that it is precisely the case that when a location is too small and lacking in independent interest to be able to support its own article, it is sensible to merge it into the article of the nearest city or town that does have enough possible content to support an article. But I don't know for sure that that's true in this case, and if there is a possibility of there being enough content for an article on Clinton, New York, then it should remain separate from the Utica article. I just regret that we can't agree on the principle involved, and I can't make sense out of your point of view because there's always a line beyond which a separate article won't work. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:56, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think that's the issue. There is more than enough material available to cover Spanish Harlem separately from Washington Heights, which is not even contiguous with it. And the question is whether there will ever be enough material to fill this article. It might serve the traveler better for this to be a section of the Utica guide. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:32, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
- Districts have to completely cover the land area of a city, so the number of districts is dictated by the amount of material available for each district. That doesn't apply for separate communities, when tossing two different municipalities together is nothing more than a matter of convenience. LtPowers (talk) 20:49, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
- Unexplanatory answer. Besides, there are loads of other examples that could be given. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:43, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
- Districtification is a whole other kettle of fish. LtPowers (talk) 14:51, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
- You could say the same thing about Inwood and Spanish Harlem, yet a decision was made to include them in a larger Upper Manhattan article. I would say that decision was based entirely on the amount of content and the likelihood of visits by tourists. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:17, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- I wasn't aware we based such things on the amount of content. The question is whether Clinton is a distinct destination from Utica, and I think it is; for example, the instructions for "Getting In" are quite different. LtPowers (talk) 18:42, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- There was a mention of Hamilton College in the Utica article, so I stated that Clinton was among the suburbs also covered in that article. If Clinton isn't going to be covered in the Utica article, that listing needs to be moved here, which I will do. That said, the question would be whether there can ever be enough content in this article for it to merit being separate from Utica, and since I haven't been to Clinton since the summer of 1971, I wouldn't know. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:57, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
What is an article? Presumably, the idea is that the traveller should be able to print a copy of a guide, go to these places and have something to see or do, somewhere to eat and somewhere to sleep. These need to be a reasonable length. If Hamilton College is the only game in town, perhaps there isn't enough for a visit to Clinton (without Utica) to be worthwhile as a stand-alone article. We can and do lump groups of small villages together if that gives a reasonable-sized article (Prince Edward County, for instance) while splitting closely-spaced entities (like Newark and NYC) in crowded areas where each could stand on its own.
If I search for 'Clinton (New York)' I find http://villageofclinton.com "Clinton, NY is a quaint, historic village nestled in Central New York just outside of Utica NY in the Town of Kirkland." with a good B&B selection but no hotels. I mostly get results for former NY senator Hillary Clinton (and her husband, for some reason), Clinton-Franklin-Essex counties (which are near Plattsburgh, so wrong region), a "town of Clinton" which seems to be further downstate (Duchess County... again, wrong region) and Clinton NJ (just plain out of state). Given the size, number of points of interest and proximity to Utica, Clinton 13323 is very marginal as a separate destination. I'd be inclined to treat this as a Utica suburb until such time as we have enough info actually in the guide to justify splitting this out as a free-standing destination. K7L (talk) 03:34, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
- I just did a little work on Purchase, NY, a very small town that's home to a couple of universities and the headquarters of PepsiCo. The page is not quite Usable yet, but it's clearly its own article and not a merge candidate. If this article can be turned into something more like that one, I doubt anyone would suggest a merge. So, is it possible to have that kind of coverage of Clinton? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:41, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
- Where does it say that an article needs to be a "reasonable length", or where is it defined what "reasonable" is? Leave the amalgamation of separate communities to region articles and let communities stand on their own. LtPowers (talk) 12:50, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
- Of course there is no rule about reasonable length, but would you admit that with the few edits I made, including putting in 3 photos, it's looking more like an article? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:12, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
- Of course it's improved; why wouldn't it be? LtPowers (talk) 20:32, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
- Of course there is no rule about reasonable length, but would you admit that with the few edits I made, including putting in 3 photos, it's looking more like an article? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:12, 19 September 2013 (UTC)