Talk:Jerusalem/Old City

General

Bold textI have added some remarks to the Buy section about shops in the Christian quarters. The statements are based on my own personal observations and experience. Believe it or not, it is true.

Western Wall It is NOT the holiest site in Judaism. The area where the Dome of the Rock is today, is the holiest site is in Judaism - which is where the Temple once stood.

Temple Mount (Noble Sanctuary)

Calling it simply the Noble Sanctuary is offensive to most people in the world who see the place as important in any way. Any intellectually honest historian will say that the place was the site of the Jewish Temples before it was the third holiest site in Islam (which didn't even exist at the time of the temples). This is not to belittle its importance to Islam, but presenting it in that manner makes it seem primarily Muslim and only in a very minor way connected to Judaism (and by proxy, Christianity). Furthermore, the compound is separate from any of the quarters. If you've ever actually been to Jerusalem, it is plainly obvious. The whole thing is separate by a wall from the rest of the Old City... --User:Israelish 02 May 2006 17:12 (UTC).

It's in the Muslim Quarter map, and only Muslims are currently allowed into it, which 'right now for the traveller (our perspective, I'd like to remind you) makes it a part of the Muslim Quarter and, yes, primarily Muslim. All the current tourist attractions on the site are Muslim, while the Temple Mount -- with the notable exception of the separately covered Western Wall -- has passed into history.

As you seem to have considerable problems treating this subject fairly, I would suggest that you raise any issues you have here before you edit. (WT-en) Jpatokal 10:40, 2 May 2006 (EDT)

I understand your aversion to the title, but Noble Sanctuary is the official current name of the location. While it is useful and necessary to touch on the historical significance of certain locations (which this article clearly does), the goal of the article is to provide current, reliable information to visitors.

Officially (and in spite of the wall), the site is classified with the Muslim Quarter, especially considering it is currently under Muslim control. All but one of the entrances to the mount open to the Muslim Quarter, and non-Muslims are only allowed access by a single gate above the Western Wall. For ease of classification, most guide books will group it with Muslim Quarter "attractions". - (WT-en) Cybjorg 10:48, 2 May 2006 (EDT)

We document things as they appear today because that is what matters to the traveler -- and we have a policy, The traveller comes first. So if the signposts to the attraction say "Noble Sanctuary", or if "Noble Sanctuary" is what you need to say to locals to get directions, then that is what we use so the traveller can find the attraction. "Official" viewpoints and "the way things ought to be" carry no weight when they are in opposition to the facts on the ground. This is the same reasoning that leads us to call Jerusalem the capital of Israel -- because International Opinion is irrelevant when compared to the facts on the ground. See also Transnistria. -- (WT-en) Colin 11:26, 2 May 2006 (EDT)

Incorrect - more signs say הר הבית than anything else. And geographically (depsite any map someone has posted on here - it is more in the Jewish quarter than in the Muslim Quarter. AND more than one entrance is allowed for non-Muslims, for example the one IN the muslim quarter is open Sun-Thurs 9:30-11 and 12-13:30 (or something along those hours). Furthermore - who is allowed in does not determine what quarter it is in (IT IS NO QUARTER), that argument holds no water - JEWS are the ones deciding who and when is allowed in anyway. Lastly, if something is blatantly false, it should be corrected, not discussed with the person who was mistaken in the first place. --(WT-en) Israelish 18:38, 03 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but we do actually like to discuss things that are in contention. If things were really that clear, we wouldn't be having this little chat, right? It's kinda hard to argue that there's nothing to argue about ;-) It sounds like you have a lot of good first-hand information, we just want to make sure that what folks read here is going to be directly helpful for visitors. Thanks (WT-en) Majnoona 14:12, 3 May 2006 (EDT)

If you can prove that the other gates are opened at specific times of the week, feel free to edit the hours of operation. However, these times tend to change on a whim, so maintaining current facts are important. I verified the currently posted information a week ago. - (WT-en) Cybjorg 14:45, 3 May 2006 (EDT)

Also keep in mind that the information contained in the Western Wall section needs to relevantly relate to the Wall itself (with a brief explanation of its history) and not the history of the Temple Mount. - (WT-en) Cybjorg 14:49, 3 May 2006 (EDT)

I don't know whether this was different in 2006, but currently there are no signs or maps in English mentioning a "Noble Sanctuary" - only "Temple Mount", "Al-Aqsa Mosque" and "Dome of the Rock". Also, there are permanent visiting hours for non-Muslims. 93.172.151.196 21:49, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

"Noble Sanctuary" is not a name that is frequently used in maps or books in English. It is a literal translation of the Arabic "Haram esh-Sharif". The opening sentence in Wikipedia is:

The Temple Mount (Hebrew: הַר הַבַּיִת‎, Har HaBáyit, "Mount of the House [of God, i.e. the Temple]"), known to Muslims as the Haram esh-Sharif (Arabic: الحرم الشريف‎, al-Ḥaram al-Šarīf, "the Noble Sanctuary", or الحرم القدسي الشريف, al-Ḥaram al-Qudsī al-Šarīf, "the Noble Sanctuary of Jerusalem")

The correct way to reference the place as both the Temple Mount and the Muslim Noble Sanctuary should be: "The Temple Mount / Haram esh-Sharif" and not "The Temple Mount / Noble Sanctuary". 93.172.151.196 21:41, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Cool. Does anyone object to making the change? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:42, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Western Wall

The Western Wall is not a remnant of the Temple. It was never a part of the Temple itself - but of the containing wall of the compound otherwise known as Temple Mount. Also, Jews ARE allowed into Temple Mount. --(WT-en) Israelish

I clarified that the Wall is part of the Temple Mount and not the temple itself, although I doubt this would have been taken out of context by too many people. The following sentance expounds that it is part of the retaining wall for the site. Concerning Jews visiting the site, the only ones I know who are allowed are the ones guarding the gates. Either way, the point being made is that Jews are not allowed to worship on the site, so they have reverted to praying at the wall for logical reasons. - (WT-en) Cybjorg 14:41, 3 May 2006 (EDT)

I have replaced 'Israeli occupation of' with 'Israel assumed control of the Old City in.' Perhaps the first version reflects the view of many, nonetheless it is POV, and an extremely contentious matter. —The preceding comment was added by ? (talk • contribs)

A propos the Western Wall: I like the map of the Old City, but I think it's somewhat important to replace the old-fashioned nickname "Wailing Wall" with "Western Wall." "Wailing Wall" is considered derogatory by some Jews. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:20, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I still feel this way. Would someone please edit the map accordingly? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:31, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Scope and overlap

I came to this and the other Jerusalem articles preparing for my second visit there, and find the scope of this one confusing. It rightly sets out the definition of the Old City as the bit within the walls, but then spends quite a significant part of the article discussing things that are outside it.

Some of this, e.g. The Garden Tomb should, to my mind, be in the East Jerusalem article, and the coverage in the Old City one may account for the stubbiness of the East Jerusalem one. However, the other big section is the Mount of Olives part. I'm not sure whether most people would see that as East Jerusalem or as a separate area in its own right. Given the 'traveller first' approach here, I would guess the latter?

Happy to 'plunge forward' and do some reordering, but am not up to creating a whole new entry based on a template if people agree the is what is needed for Mount of Olives.(WT-en) Matruman 08:30, 26 January 2012 (EST)

Destination of the month?

Would this article make Dotm? Is anything specific missing? /Yvwv (talk) 12:08, 2 September 2022 (UTC)