Talk:Lehigh Valley International Airport
Latest comment: 2 years ago by Ikan Kekek in topic Merge with Allentown
Merge with Allentown
[edit]The airport is not located in Allentown, it is physically located in Hanover Township, Lehigh County, Pennsylvania. The article could be deleted. Thanks, Zeete (talk) 10:39, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- Hanover Township doesn't have an article on Wikivoyage (there is an article called Hanover (Pennsylvania), but that's about another place!). The content can be merged to one of three neighbouring city articles (Allentown, Bethlehem (Pennsylvania), or Whitehall), or to the Lehigh Valley region article. What do you think?
- But I agree that this airport certainly doesn't warrant its own article, per Wikivoyage:Airport Expedition and Wikivoyage:What_is_an_article?#Exceptions.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:23, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think it would add value to any other article on Wikivoyage. I would recommend simple deletion. Thanks, Zeete (talk) 14:59, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- No, it won't be deleted, because information about an airport is useful and this is a reasonable search term; it will be merged and redirected, and the obvious place is Allentown#By plane. It doesn't matter that the airport is in a town that has no article; the largest city in the area is Allentown, so that's the place to put the relevant information. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:53, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- I created the stub for this commercial airport, which serves a metropolitan region of about a million people, after seeing it cited on more than a dozen pages but not having a page. It is the airport any traveler would use to enter this metropolitan region and might, arguably, be the singular most important topic a traveler seeks when seeking information about this region and its cities. The fact that it may be smaller than, say, John F. Kennedy International Airport, actually makes the case for this article stronger, not weaker, since details about the airport are no less important to a traveler to this region but may be less available. When I created this stub, it seemed a very routine and valuable addition. Only when I went to add it to the list of airport articles did I realize that airport articles seem restricted to mostly the largest and best recognized in countries. This is a mid-sized airport used daily by passengers (tens of thousands of passengers annually) but obviously not of the size of most on that list, so I acknowledge this becomes a bit precedent setting and will possibly inspire articles on airports of comparable size. That raises the question: What sort of policy standard would make sense so that transportation articles worthy of inclusion get created while also ensuring that trivial or unnecessary do not. My policy suggestion: When a Wikipedia article exists on a component of transportation infrastructure (an airport, train station, bus station, etc.), that means it has been deemed to literally hold encyclopedic value to the world, not just a traveler. In these cases it would seem absurd to have a transportation topic whose global encyclopedic value has been established then be deemed undeserving of an article on this site, which is literally created for travelers much more inclined to be seeking pages like this. The standard for the creation of a WikiVoyage article on a transportation article should not be higher than that of Wikipedia, and possibly should even be a slightly lower standard as long as it the article is of legitimate value to a traveler. In the case of this particular article, this airport has a long-standing Wikipidia article that was created in 2004: . An online encyclopedia like WikiVoyage, which represents that it carries articles of value to travelers, should find that sufficiently persuasive for there to be an article about it here. One final point: While I developed this article as a stub, should an airport article like this be deleted, all the associated details associated with a commerical airport like this--airlines that serve it, gates, destinations, direct flights, ground transportation, etc. will overwhelm the city or region page (and be very repetitious if included, as they would need to be, on all the cities that might use that airport). If we include the airport basics on the city or regional page and then offer the more detailed information on the linked airport page, it ensures the city or regional page is not overwhelmed with multiple paragraphs while also ensuring this important information to travelers is still available on this travel-focused site. This article should remain, and the standard for the creation of future articles on transportation infractructure topics should be: 1.) Is this article something a typical traveler to the respective region or city would find necessary or of great value? 2.) Does a Wikipedia page on this topic exist? If the answer to both questions is "yes", as is the case with this article, the case for an article here exists. Keystone18 (talk) 19:24, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- (1) This is a stub and won't overwhelm Allentown#Get in at all. (2) Wikivoyage is not an encyclopedia; see Wikivoyage:Goals and non-goals. (3) Wikipedia has articles about almost anything you can think of, including individual streets. The argument that Wikivoyage's standards of what is an article shouldn't be different from Wikipedia's is a very weak argument that will fail every time. (4) The briefest statement of the criteria for an airport to have its own article is at Wikivoyage:Airport Expedition#Article criteria:
- I created the stub for this commercial airport, which serves a metropolitan region of about a million people, after seeing it cited on more than a dozen pages but not having a page. It is the airport any traveler would use to enter this metropolitan region and might, arguably, be the singular most important topic a traveler seeks when seeking information about this region and its cities. The fact that it may be smaller than, say, John F. Kennedy International Airport, actually makes the case for this article stronger, not weaker, since details about the airport are no less important to a traveler to this region but may be less available. When I created this stub, it seemed a very routine and valuable addition. Only when I went to add it to the list of airport articles did I realize that airport articles seem restricted to mostly the largest and best recognized in countries. This is a mid-sized airport used daily by passengers (tens of thousands of passengers annually) but obviously not of the size of most on that list, so I acknowledge this becomes a bit precedent setting and will possibly inspire articles on airports of comparable size. That raises the question: What sort of policy standard would make sense so that transportation articles worthy of inclusion get created while also ensuring that trivial or unnecessary do not. My policy suggestion: When a Wikipedia article exists on a component of transportation infrastructure (an airport, train station, bus station, etc.), that means it has been deemed to literally hold encyclopedic value to the world, not just a traveler. In these cases it would seem absurd to have a transportation topic whose global encyclopedic value has been established then be deemed undeserving of an article on this site, which is literally created for travelers much more inclined to be seeking pages like this. The standard for the creation of a WikiVoyage article on a transportation article should not be higher than that of Wikipedia, and possibly should even be a slightly lower standard as long as it the article is of legitimate value to a traveler. In the case of this particular article, this airport has a long-standing Wikipidia article that was created in 2004: . An online encyclopedia like WikiVoyage, which represents that it carries articles of value to travelers, should find that sufficiently persuasive for there to be an article about it here. One final point: While I developed this article as a stub, should an airport article like this be deleted, all the associated details associated with a commerical airport like this--airlines that serve it, gates, destinations, direct flights, ground transportation, etc. will overwhelm the city or region page (and be very repetitious if included, as they would need to be, on all the cities that might use that airport). If we include the airport basics on the city or regional page and then offer the more detailed information on the linked airport page, it ensures the city or regional page is not overwhelmed with multiple paragraphs while also ensuring this important information to travelers is still available on this travel-focused site. This article should remain, and the standard for the creation of future articles on transportation infractructure topics should be: 1.) Is this article something a typical traveler to the respective region or city would find necessary or of great value? 2.) Does a Wikipedia page on this topic exist? If the answer to both questions is "yes", as is the case with this article, the case for an article here exists. Keystone18 (talk) 19:24, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- No, it won't be deleted, because information about an airport is useful and this is a reasonable search term; it will be merged and redirected, and the obvious place is Allentown#By plane. It doesn't matter that the airport is in a town that has no article; the largest city in the area is Allentown, so that's the place to put the relevant information. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:53, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think it would add value to any other article on Wikivoyage. I would recommend simple deletion. Thanks, Zeete (talk) 14:59, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- The main criteria for determining if an airport article is appropriate:
- Does the airport service connecting flights? Only airports large enough to service connecting flights should be considered for articles since travelers are unlikely to be spending significant time at airports that serve only as departure and final destination points.
- Does the airport have enough food and shopping options to fill out an entire "Buy" and "Eat and Drink" section?
- The main criteria for determining if an airport article is appropriate:
- In conclusion, it is no problem to cover this airport in Allentown#Get in, and it's no problem to link to Allentown#Get in in the "Get in" sections of other articles, like this: [[Allentown#Get in|Lehigh Valley International Airport]]. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:06, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- Any more comments? If not, the merge/redirect may take place tomorrow. By the way, Keystone18, if you want to argue for a policy change to allow for there to be articles about secondary airports, you are welcome to start a thread or add to a relevant thread in Wikivoyage talk:Airport Expedition and try to assemble a consensus behind your opinion, but this stub article will not serve as a strong argument for your position. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:16, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- When I first created the stub for this airport, it seemed a reasonable and valued addition since it is the primary commercial airport for a metropolitan region of almost a million people. But when I went to add it to the list of airports, I quickly saw that it stood out as smaller than the airports on that list, so I understand the case for its deletion. I just proposed a slight expansion in the criteria for the policy on articles on commercial airports, train and bus stations serving metropolitan areas, which I hope will be adopted and would encourage articles like this one and those that are the primary means of air, train, or bus arrival in metropolitan regions. Thanks to those who have offered their thoughts and input. If you agree with me, I hope you'll add some support for the policy change at Wikivoyage talk:Airport Expedition. Keystone18 (talk) 20:10, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- Any more comments? If not, the merge/redirect may take place tomorrow. By the way, Keystone18, if you want to argue for a policy change to allow for there to be articles about secondary airports, you are welcome to start a thread or add to a relevant thread in Wikivoyage talk:Airport Expedition and try to assemble a consensus behind your opinion, but this stub article will not serve as a strong argument for your position. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:16, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- Please understand: This article is not being nominated for deletion and will not be deleted. Its contents will be merged to Allentown and it will be turned into a redirect. I'll take care of that within 24 hours or so (possibly later tonight) if no-one else does. The policy discussion can continue, regardless, and if there's ever a decision to restore this stub, that's simple to do because the redirect will retain the entire history of this article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:31, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- Merged and redirected accordingly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:33, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- Please understand: This article is not being nominated for deletion and will not be deleted. Its contents will be merged to Allentown and it will be turned into a redirect. I'll take care of that within 24 hours or so (possibly later tonight) if no-one else does. The policy discussion can continue, regardless, and if there's ever a decision to restore this stub, that's simple to do because the redirect will retain the entire history of this article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:31, 20 July 2022 (UTC)