User talk:Keystone18

Hello Keystone18! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page.

If you are a Wikipedian then you may notice some differences in policies and the style of our articles. These include:

• NPOV → be fair (not quite the same thing!)
• be bold → plunge forward
• Village pump → travellers' pub
• External links → We do not use a separate external links section, but incorporate primary links only into the text itself.
• sandbox → graffiti wall
• stub tagging → Article status

It may also be very useful for you to check out Wikivoyage:Welcome, Wikipedians. If you need help, take a look at Wikivoyage:Help, or else post a message in the travellers' pub or on my talk page. Thanks for contributing!

And thank you very much for your edits to Pennsylvania related articles. One thing to note though: please take the time to read wv:7+2. Usually in non-bottom level regions, the cities and other destinations should be kept between 5-9 destinations, but don't feel bad as you're not the only new contributor (to Wikivoyage that is) who's made that mistake (I made that mistake too). --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:33, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Breadcrumb navigation and extraregion articles

Hi. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but please don't turn Lehigh Valley unilaterally into an extraregion article outside of this site's breadcrumb navigation hierarchy. Articles about regions that are in more than one state can't be part of the region structure of a state. Also, we don't expect readers to know the U.S. Postal Service's 2-letter abbreviations for states, so as this is an international site, we don't use them. Have a look at my edit summary here for more information, and thanks in advance for cooperating.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:32, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Links

Hi again, Keystone18, and thanks for all your great work! I'd like you to please read what not to link to, though. The sites that should be linked to in bottom-level articles (so Bethlehem (Pennsylvania) but not Lehigh Valley) are either the attraction's or business's own website or an official governmental website. Blogs, Yelp and nationwide historical societies are neither primary links nor governmental links and may not be used. If you would like to argue for an exception for a particular article, please start a thread on that article's talk page explaining why, and see if you can convince a consensus. Also, in region articles, the links should be to bottom-level articles. There is no need to have identical web links in both a parent region article and the article for the city where an attraction or business is located.

Thanks very much and all the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:57, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Can you share with me an example of an edit I did along those lines? I agree with that approach, and it does not seem like the sort of edit I would propose. I've found these pages to be filled with dated and inaccurate information. In cases where an establishment is no longer in business and I'm able to confirm that, I'm removing them. In cases where the website for the establishment has changed, I've updated it. But there is this third category that is pretty common: Establishments who do not have websites but are not definitively listed as having closed; in a few of those cases, I removed the no longer functioning link with the best I could find as opposed to removing it and later learning it's still around. I appreciate your guidance. Keystone18 (talk) 17:20, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Sure. Have a look at the links I removed here. If you didn't add them in the first place, my bad. But also, don't add URLs, with few exceptions, at higher levels in the breadcrumb trail, such as in region articles like Lehigh Valley, and even more so, Pennsylvania. We don't want full listings with street addresses, phone numbers and URLs at those levels, and there really shouldn't be listing templates at all at those levels, with a few exceptions, but instead, summaries with links to the local articles that have full listing information. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:47, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Lehigh Valley Airport

Also, sorry to bug you on another topic, but I don't see how this secondary an airport could possibly rate its own article per Wikivoyage:Airport Expedition#Small and medium sized airports. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:16, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

This airport is so widely cited on a few dozen pages and is the main commercial airport for a largely populated region. It wasn't until after I created a stub for it that I noticed how few airport articles actually exist, and most are larger. On a broader policy point, though, I'm astonished how many article exist on trivial establishments of limited value. Airports are probably the first thing readers want to know about for a metropolitan region, and the airport for this region (whose metropolitan region is about a million people) appears a glaring omission for anyone interested in traveling there. There are small airports, used mostly by private aircraft in this region. This airport is definitely not that. It is the area's primary passenger and commercial airport and is used by major airlines. It is the fourth largest airport in Pennsylvania. It's received federal funding for further expansion and travel statistics have trended upward. I'll try to find the area to propose a policy on transportation infrastructure. My view is that if an airport, train station, or bus station has a Wikipedia article, this site, which represents that it is a source for travel information, should welcome and encourage articles on those entities here. Keystone18 (talk) 17:36, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

The feeling on this site is that only if coverage of an airport would overwhelm the "Get in" section of the article for the city it primarily serves does it get its own article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:43, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Most commercial airports have important facts people seek--names of airlines that serve it, ground transportation, proximity to other areas, parking details, etc. With a dedicated article on the airport, the "Get in" section can include the link to the airport and the most fundamental basics and the remaining details can be on the airport page, ensuring it does not become overwhelming to the "Get in" section. Absent an article on the airport, though, the airport information is either going to be insufficiently detailed and not of much value, or, as you say, overwhelming to the page itself. On a site that focuses on travel, the travel infrastructure is probably the information readers most seek and seek first and where the foundation on which this site can grow. The information on restaurants, bars, activities, etc. (at least at this point and as far as what I am encountering) seems very underdeveloped and not likely yet to compete with Yelp or other sites that keep that information thorough and updated. My suggetion: If a topic relevant to a traveler to a region (especially including airports, train stations, bus terminals) has a Wikipedia article (meaning the topic has been established to be of broad enclyclopedic value to all), it certainly deserves an article on a site dedicated to travelers, who come here for precisely that information. Just my thoughts. If that page gets deleted, it would be a disservice because there are about a hundred others of such marginal value I've encountered to date. My two cents, but I'm still fairly new here and maybe I'm missing something. Is there a proper place for me to suggest this as a policy? If so, I'll be happy to do so and we can get some broader input on it. I appreciate your guidance on it all. Keystone18 (talk) 18:07, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

The article on the airport is very short with no prospect of significant expansion. It's possible to link to this content from other articles even if it isn't separated out into it's own article, because articles can link to sections of other articles. This could be merely a section or a part thereof in the appropriate city article. Twsabin (talk) 18:11, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Exactly. The content should be in Allentown#By plane, and that should be linked in articles about Bethlehem, Easton, etc. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:30, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

First of all, I can understand how you're feeling; I once created an article for Darwin International Airport only for it to be merged moments later (though that airport is commonly used for transits). However, I agree with Twsabin and Ikan Kekek that this is not a very large airport by all means, and barely significant IMO. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:18, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

I tried to just start it as a stub with the basics and plans to expand it, including with flight info, gate info, etc., over time and hopefully contributions from others. But your guidance is definitely appreciated. I'm hoping to be a constructive contributor. Keystone18 (talk) 02:55, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

You already are a constructive and helpful contributor! This site is idiosyncratic in some ways, especially compared to Wikipedia. All of us were new users some time and had a learning curve. I think we all appreciate your understanding; I know I do. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:59, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Listings/coordinates of listings out of town

Hi, and thanks as always for your efforts to help travelers, but please look at the map in the Whitehall Township article. Do you see how it's not really a map of the city? The reason for that is that someone, probably you, provided unnecessary information about transportation to Philadelphia instead of merely links to the article about the Philadelphia airport and Philadelphia#By train, where you can link the 30th Train Station. Please make sure not to include listings, markers or unnecessary information about places out of town, in part so that the maps will actually show details of the town the article is about. Thanks!

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:34, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Please note what had to be done to remove the points in Philadelphia from the map, and do similar things in all relevant articles. Thanks! Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:35, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I think I saw you noting this before. In some ways, it's more of a technical than an editorial problem. The map should reapportion with further distances and not expand like that. We chose not to do an article on LV International Airport and now cannot even link to the Philadelphia International Airport. I will get around to correcting them on all the Lehigh Valley pages I added them to and make note of it going forward. How are you doing? Keystone18 (talk) 15:09, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

We absolutely can link Philadelphia International Airport, but we should not have a listing for it, just a bullet. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:51, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

I think the link alone populates the map. Keystone18 (talk) 23:04, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

But that doesn't happen if you link a city, right? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:35, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

No, I have not noticed it there, just on airports and train stations so far. But it means removing the coordinates from linked airports and train stations is not enough to remove it from the map. It also needs to be delinked. Keystone18 (talk) 23:36, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

It's not the Wikivoyage link: look here. The problem is probably when you include the Wikidata link, which is not needed (nor are details like the url, street address in Philadelphia, phone number, IATA). Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:40, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it's the Wikidata. So again, just link the airport or the "By train" section. No listings, no markers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:42, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Got it and will the LV pages. Keystone18 (talk) 23:43, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Cool. I solved the problems in that article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:45, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Take a look at Nazareth (Pennsylvania), where I removed the coordinates but the Philadelphia airport and train stations continue populating on the map. What am I missing? Keystone18 (talk) 20:56, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Ok, it's Wikidata. You told me that, actually. Thanks. Keystone18 (talk) 20:58, 11 September 2022 (UTC)