Talk:Northern Virginia

Why are Arlington and Alexandria their own regions?

Sub-section 1: Conversation between Emmette and Ikan

Why are Arlington and Alexandria counted as their own regions, separate from Fairfax County?Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 06:39, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

I suppose because they are independent cities and it was thought that it made more sense to treat them as separate regions. Considering the number of cities in Fairfax County and the fact that Arlington (Virginia) is a districted city, I would tend to agree that they should remain separate. If you don't, why not? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:46, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Actually, that's why I thought it was odd to treat them as separate regions. The Fairfax County article covers a sizable area that includes a number of cities, yet it excludes those two cities. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 07:12, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Looking at things another way, is Fairfax County ripe for subdividing into 2 regions? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:35, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps. But where do we divide it? Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 17:46, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Not my area of expertise. Maybe someone else who knows the area well has an opinion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:38, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

At Talk:Arlington_(Virginia)#Break_up_2017, I did propose an article for the "Inside the Beltway" area. That could work here. Inside the Beltway (including Arlington and Alexandria) does make up good chunk of Fairfax County, and I think the most populated part of it. The Beltway is a natural border, a divider between one area and another. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 22:57, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

Do you mean that as a region for Virginia only, not encompassing DC and Maryland inside the Beltway? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:56, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

I was thinking Virginia only. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 01:56, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

I initially misunderstood that. I don't know much about NoVA, but that seems sensible. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:08, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

In any case: You asked me why I didn't think it made sense for those cities to be separate. And the answer is: I don't think the city limits of Arlington and Alexandria are a very meaningful border for the traveler. I'm thinking it'd be better for article's scope to end at the Potomac River (and include Arlington and Alexandria), or to end at the beltway. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 03:00, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

I'll support any consensus, but it's probably best to ask for comments on your proposal at Requests for comment. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:58, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

Actuality, I was thinking of asking for comments from the editors of the Arlington article. Considering the work they're putting into reorganizing that article, they might have some ideas for what to do with Fairfax County. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 06:44, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

Certainly, but eventually, a link should be put at rfc, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:55, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

Alright. But before we invite outside help, I have one more question: You said that considering number of cities in Fairfax County and that Arlington is a distracted city, you would tend to agree that they should remain separate.

If we were talking about merging two different region articles, I would tend to agree. But that's not what I'm suggesting. I'm thinking of placing Arlington and Alexandria under Fairfax County in the hierarchy, rather then directly under Northern Virginia. I don't see this having much effect on the Arlington and Alexandria articles, or even on the Fairfax County article. Is there some downside here I'm not seeing?Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 22:24, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

I understand your proposal is to create 2 region articles for Fairfax County Outside the Beltway and Fairfax County Plus Arlington and Alexandria Inside the Beltway. How many cities would be in each of those regions? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:41, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Actuality, I was referring to my first proposal: To place Arlington and Alexandria under Fairfax County in the hierarchy, rather then having them be their own regions. Not my second proposal (the one you just described), on spiting FF County into two regions. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 02:17, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't think I like that idea. Right now, Fairfax County has 15 entries under "Cities", counting "Centreville and Clifton" as one entry. You are proposing to have 17 cities in one bottom-level region? Why, considering the advice at Wikivoyage:Avoid long lists#Groups of regions?

Regions should generally have no more than nine cities/towns/villages and nine other destinations. If there are more, consider splitting the region or creating subregions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:23, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

If we don't want to have more then nine cities in a region, then it's looking more like FF County should be split. But I don't think making Arlington and Alexandria their own regions helps. We could make Centreville, and some other cities on the county-line their own regions. That might bring the number of cities in the FF County article down to something approaching nine. But that wouldn't really solve the problem, that'd just be dumping city-articles onto the Northern Virginia page. And I suppose I feel that's what's happening with the Arlington and Alexandria articles: That they're not really region-articles, but city-articles that were dumped onto the Northern Virginia page.

The FF County article already more or less covers Arlington. The instructions to get in by car are to cross a bridge into Arlington. The instructions to get in by plane are to go to the Reagan National Airport, in Arlington (the article even refers to this as "the East end of Fairfax County"). About the only change I see to the FF County article, if it officially covers the two cities, is that it might list the Pentagon and the Arlington Cemetery as attractions. And I don't think there would be any real change to the Arlington and Alexandria articles.

In short: It doses look like FF County should be split. But I don't think making city-articles into region-articles helps. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 04:51, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

[unindent] I wouldn't say it's essential to avoid exceeding 9 cities per region, but it's a little questionable to have 15-17 cities in the same region. So as I see it, accepting as a given that Alexandria and Arlington will be treated as if they were part of Fairfax County, there are two solutions I can see: (1) Do a subdivision based on the Beltway, as you suggested, with 2 sub-county region articles; (2) do the same division, but by subdividing the "Cities" section in Fairfax County into two subsections. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:02, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

On that note, you asked how many cities are inside and outside the beltway. The cities inside the beltway are: Annandale, Falls Church, McLean, part of Springfield, and (of course) Arlington and Alexandria. Huntington is technically outside, but it might make more sense to treat it as if it were inside the beltway, or even as part of Alexandria. The rest of the cities are outside the beltway. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 06:00, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

So, I think that would be 5 to 7 cities inside the beltway, and 10 to 12 cities outside. However, Huntington and Burke (Burke is outside the beltway) are skeleton-articles, with almost no actual content. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 06:35, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

That's in no way a terrible split in terms of numbers. 9 is not a hard and fast limit for bottom-level regions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:38, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

I vote for option #2. I'm not sure if the beltway is the best way to split the region, and spiting the Fairfax County article in two would be quite a bit of work. Subdividing the "Cities" section, on the other hand, is quick and easy. That will work as a quick fix, and we can figure out what we want to do from there. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 07:01, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

OK, go ahead. I don't think it would be all that difficult to turn that split into 2 subregion articles if a decision is made later to do so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:28, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Done. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 08:31, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

And I've asked the editors of the Arlington article to look over the FF County article. This conversation is pretty long at it is, so I'll create a sub-section to keep it from being unwledey. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 11:32, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Sub-section 2: Request for comments form the editors of the Arlington article

I am late to the conversation but to identify this region as "Fairfax County" is extremely confusing and completely at odds with local nomenclature. In New York, this would be like calling Jersey City part of Newark. In Los Angeles, this would be like calling Anaheim part of the Inland Empire. Arlington and Old Town Alexandria are relatively urbanized, and contain many sites that visitors associate much more closely with Washington than to the more distant suburbs (e.g. the Pentagon, Arlington National Cemetery). Arlington and Alexandria also maintain fairly strong local identities distinct from Fairfax County; this is not really of interest to a visitor, but at the same time conflating them isn't going to help a tourist who doesn't understand why the Fairfax County bus system doesn't operate in Arlington because it's labeled here as "eastern Fairfax County" (WTF). We shouldn't be simplifying to the point of providing incorrect information. A more useful division would be Inside the Beltway (Arlington, Alexandria, Falls Church, McLean) and Beyond the Beltway (the rest of Fairfax County, Fairfax City, Manassas, Manassas Park, and Prince William County), and if necessary you can link up the exurban counties (Loudon, Fauquier, Prince William, Stafford) under some heading for the exurbs, or they can stand alone. -Choster (talk) 07:37, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

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Map errors

I see a couple errors in the map. Not huge issues, just kind of aggravating if you're either familiar with the area or trying to use it: 1) Woodbridge is in Prince William County (not Fairfax County), and 2) Mount Vernon is further north than where the marker is shown (it's actually about where the US 1 icon appears). Mrkstvns (talk) 12:51, 27 April 2023 (UTC)