Talk:Overseas Chinese cuisine

Thai-Chinese food

I haven't been to Thailand except for one visit in 1975 so far, but a dim sum meal in Bangkok's Chinatown stood out for me as one of the best meals I had had to date and as a particularly great style of Chinese food. It struck me as a fusion of Chinese flavors with Thai flavors, but it's hard for me to remember the details. The entry on Thailand talks about Chinese influence on Thai food. What about the influence of aromatic Thai flavors, such as holy basil, limes or lime leaves, on Chinese food in the country? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:50, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Absolutely. Honestly, when I last went to Bangkok, it was virtually impossible to distinguish "pure" Thai food from Thai-Chinese food. So many of the food stalls I went to outside Chinatown were operated by ethnic Chinese, which you can tell based on the fact that there were Chinese decorations and altars inside the eateries. And there were some that I recognised as similar to the Teochew food that you can find in Singapore, albeit with a distinctive Thai twist. And likewise, when I went to Ayutthaya, there is so much Chinese influence you can see in the local food there too; I remember that most of the boat noodles stalls I saw were run by ethnic Chinese, and I had something they call salapao at the local market, which is the Thai version of what we call "pau" in Singapore. My Thai friend told me that the Chinese influence just runs so deep in the Bangkok culinary scene that the only truly "pure" Thai food you can find is Isaan food. The dog2 (talk) 21:12, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

This sounds tricky to cover. How do you figure would be best to cover this? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:25, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

I've tried writing something. Have a look and feel free to improve on it. The dog2 (talk) 00:00, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Come to think of it, I guess an analogy that would make sense to Americans is that Thai cuisine without the Chinese influence would be like American Southern cuisine without the African-American influence; simply unimaginable. The dog2 (talk) 00:37, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Do you mean African-American influence or African influence? Southern cuisine has been primarily the cuisine of Black cooks, initially mostly enslaved ones, who used a combination of African, Native American and European ingredients and techniques and sometimes served quite different food for fellow enslaved people or their families (made for example from offal and other parts of meat considered undesirable by their white masters, or later employers) than for their masters.

I feel like the section on Thailand in this article explains the Chinese influence and participation in Thai cuisine well but does not mention the use of local ingredients in Thai-Chinese cooking, such as one might eat in avowedly Chinese restaurants or stalls. There are quite a few examples of Southern cuisine that is more influenced by European roots and tastes than African ones (for example, fruit pies), or that uses local ingredients and techniques, such as grits, which are made from corn. In addition, there were ingredients that were used as substitutes for unavailable African ingredients, such as peanuts instead of Bambara groundnuts. A Chinese cook can make any kind of cuisine, so I don't think the identity of the cook is the point as much as the style of the cooking - not that the two cannot be related, but they don't have to be. However, adapting food to local ingredients and/or adding some additional local tastes is a common experience for many people who found themselves by choice or otherwise in foreign lands. So can something be said about that? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:14, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Ah I see. Most of the street food in Bangkok is actually of Chinese origin, but incorporating Thai flavours as well. An example would be the tom yum pork noodles that I had. Khao man kai is the Thai version of Hainanese chicken rice, and is in fact usually sold by Thais of Hainanese descent. And I had a Thai version of kway chap in Bangkok Chinatown, which is distinct from our version in Singapore. And sometimes, you even get straight up Chinese dishes that have been so widely adopted in Thailand that Thais no longer consider them foreign; khao tom pla for instance is just Teochew fish porridge, and virtually identical to what you find in Singapore. The dog2 (talk) 03:37, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Those all seem like really good things to mention. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:56, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

OK, I've done some re-writing. Hopefully it's a little better now. The dog2 (talk) 23:37, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Much better indeed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:58, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Kueh

I feel like something should be mentioned in the sections on Malaysia and Singapore (and whenever one is written about Indonesia) about kueh, because that is the, I think Hokkien (or is it Hakka?) word for cakes and is used in Malay/Indonesian. It would be good to mention the overlap in a type of cakes which are much smaller than standard Euro-American cakes and often use rice or sago flour and mention some particular kueh that are made and enjoyed by Malay and Chinese people alike, which I think would include kueh pandan and a few kinds of kueh with coconut in them, but also maybe mention some divergences (Malays tend to like more sweetness, I think). There is a Wikipedia article, w:Kuih. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:35, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

It's been a while since I've been to my local Malaysian restaurant, but I did try some kueh when I was there and I have to say that it was absolutely delicious. Unfortunately, I don't know too much about it, so I can't really add much, but I do remember reading somewhere that the Indonesian version was Kue, and Wikipedia also has a separate article on Kue. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:43, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

"Kueh" (粿) is both Hokkien and Teochew (which are similar to each other), and is used to refer to rice cakes, which is often used in savory dishes too. For instance, radish cake is called "chai tow kueh" (菜頭粿) in Hokkien and Teochew, while nian gao is called "tee kueh" in Hokkien and "tiam kueh" in Teochew (written 甜粿 in both cases, but just pronounced differently, literally meaning "sweet rice cake"). And even the word "kway teow" (粿條) came about because traditionally, they would make an entire rice cake before cutting it into long and flat sheets, which makes it different from Cantonese "hor fun" in its preparation method.

I don't know how much detail we want to go into, but it seems that the Malay word has diverged somewhat in meaning from the Hokkien/Teochew original. The Peranakans also make very nice kuih though, and it could certainly be mentioned. The dog2 (talk) 13:41, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Photo from defunct Xi'an Famous Foods (NYC) location

Does it matter that the photo is from a location that closed during the pandemic and is now a totally different restaurant? I think it doesn't matter in the sense that the spicy pork noodles look the same, regardless of what Xi'an Famous Foods location they're photographed in, but it seemed worth bringing up. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:43, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

If it were in a destination article, then I think it would but since this is a travel topic, I don't think it really matters, as long as it was taken in the US. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:45, 18 April 2022 (UTC)