Talk:Westport (New Zealand)
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Bazil's[edit]
PDXMaria wrote "two businesses, not one" – but they have the same address and phone number. Who owns what is less important, I think this makes them the same business from the traveller's viewpoint. We already have 14 sleep listings in the Westport area, so having this only as surf school (with a note on accommodation) makes the Sleep section easier to grasp. We avoid listing the same place twice, and explicitly tell people not to do so in Wikivoyage:Don't tout#Identifying touting. Exceptions should, according to that page, be discussed on the article's talk page. –LPfi (talk) 09:42, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- User:LPfi and User:Ibaman -- I understand the point, but here's the thing I think should be considered: in small towns, businesses sometimes provide more than one service in order to make ends meet. Now I'm not advocating that Hotels that also provide food should be both in Sleep and Eat, nor should bars be listed in both Eat and Drink (in Westport's case, combined those sections). But I would like to propose that a business owner who is providing two distinctly different services - e.g. surfing lessons and accommodations, deserves to be represented in both sections (despite, in this case, the number of Sleep listing in Westport). As I'm working on the New Zealand West Coast communities that I am familiar with as a long-term (6-month) tourist here, I am seeing these arise. And I think we do both the tourist and the business a disservice if we cannot represent the business in both places. --PDXMaria (talk) 00:22, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
- I have had the same problem in Finnish Lapland and in the Finnish archipelago, duplicating listings and inserting seealsos, but in these cases there were usually still few listings in each. I don't have a firm opinion on this case. Perhaps the Westport sleep list should be divided also by type, getting the individual lists down to 7±2. I see B&B, motel, motor lodge, motor hotel and hotel in the names – do these (read: groups of these) have specific target groups, making them useful as dividing criteria? –LPfi (talk) 06:33, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
- I think the multiple listing restriction applies mainly to restaurant cum bar, or accommodation with restaurant and/or bar. It doesn't often arise for Do and Sleep entries and I think a surf school is so different from the hospitality-type listing that two entries are justified. If the surf school is only open to guests at the hostel, I would more likely keep it to a single listing. I agree with LPfi that the long lists should be subdivided. The usual criteria though is price, not type. The Eat/Drink and Sleep lists should be subdivided into the three standard sections of Budget, Mid-range, Splurge. Nurg (talk) 09:21, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
- I think the locations are the most important aspect of the Sleep listings, so that should be the main division. Cost is standard, but it is nowadays often hard to tell, as many lodgings have fluctuating prices, depending on day, marketing channel and person asking. I suppose the categories roughly indicate the price range – but yes, keeping to the standard is good. –LPfi (talk) 11:44, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
- Subdivision is really needed here; Avoid long lists is an actual WV policy. I wonder whether Carters Beach and Cape Foulwind (with Tauranga Bay) should have their own articles; this would help reduce the mess here. Ibaman (talk) 13:18, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with all of you, User:LPfi User:Nurg and User: Ibaman that the Motel listings for Westport is long, I just didn't want to exclude any of the Westport businesses. I'll think about how best to do it - I might do it by class of accommodation rather than by price (e.g. "Motel" in NZ means a room with a kitchenette). Location doesn't make sense because Westport is so small. Doing it by price would take quite a bit of research and as someone pointed out, these fluxuate by season. In any case, it'll be on my list of to-do's unless someone else takes it on first. I don't think the listings for Carters Beach, Cape Foulwind and Tauranga Bay complicate the page, I personally think that's fairly clean and with the fact that they are part of Westport, they would have the same Eat, Do, See items -- I'd like to leave those three together for now and see if when the Sleep section gets organized it all feels better. I of course agree with User:Nurg that a business that offers two different services shouldn't fall under the rule of not duplicating. So I'd like to add Bazil's Hostel back in, particularly because it is a hostel. If there isn't further disagreement, I'll do that shortly. Thank you all for weighing in. I've been quite happy to work on this page as I'm an enthusiastic tourist/resident of the area and it has so much to offer. --PDXMaria (talk) 03:05, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
- I found time to reorganize the Sleep section for Westport. See what you think.--PDXMaria (talk) 03:25, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
- Quick comment: Why don't you want to exclude any of the Westport businesses? Please look at WV:Avoid long lists and WV:Goals and non-goals. Being a yellow pages (or whatever color the business phonebook is in New Zealand) is specifically a non-goal of Wikivoyage. Instead, when there are many businesses of x or y type in a destination, only the most interesting ones for travelers should be listed in our guides. Think about it: What would guides to New York and Tokyo look like if we tried to list every single darn hotel, restaurant and bar? Can you imagine that? Would it serve the traveler in any useful way? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:06, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
- Ah, good point. I was thinking of it as "equal opportunity" for a small town where everyone is struggling to make a living. I don't have the first-hand experience with motels/hotels to pick and choose. I do have fav restaurants and those I haven't listed (e.g. Subway). But, I'll read the goals and give this some thought... if you could abide with the lists for now, that would be great. --PDXMaria (talk) 07:31, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
- Of course! And I wouldn't have the expertise to start deleting any listings, anyway. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:33, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
- If we think about Westport proper only, 7+2=3×3, so only three for each of Budget, Midrange and Splurge, which is not much. So proper grouping could solve the problem, easily allowing 5+5+5 (7-2). With location, I meant we shouldn't merge Foulwind & al with the Westport list, but divide this one list. The other sections are a little different, but I suppose similar solutions are possible; e.g. Eat and drink makes no distinction between different types. –LPfi (talk) 18:10, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
- Of course! And I wouldn't have the expertise to start deleting any listings, anyway. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:33, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
- Ah, good point. I was thinking of it as "equal opportunity" for a small town where everyone is struggling to make a living. I don't have the first-hand experience with motels/hotels to pick and choose. I do have fav restaurants and those I haven't listed (e.g. Subway). But, I'll read the goals and give this some thought... if you could abide with the lists for now, that would be great. --PDXMaria (talk) 07:31, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
- Quick comment: Why don't you want to exclude any of the Westport businesses? Please look at WV:Avoid long lists and WV:Goals and non-goals. Being a yellow pages (or whatever color the business phonebook is in New Zealand) is specifically a non-goal of Wikivoyage. Instead, when there are many businesses of x or y type in a destination, only the most interesting ones for travelers should be listed in our guides. Think about it: What would guides to New York and Tokyo look like if we tried to list every single darn hotel, restaurant and bar? Can you imagine that? Would it serve the traveler in any useful way? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:06, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
- I found time to reorganize the Sleep section for Westport. See what you think.--PDXMaria (talk) 03:25, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with all of you, User:LPfi User:Nurg and User: Ibaman that the Motel listings for Westport is long, I just didn't want to exclude any of the Westport businesses. I'll think about how best to do it - I might do it by class of accommodation rather than by price (e.g. "Motel" in NZ means a room with a kitchenette). Location doesn't make sense because Westport is so small. Doing it by price would take quite a bit of research and as someone pointed out, these fluxuate by season. In any case, it'll be on my list of to-do's unless someone else takes it on first. I don't think the listings for Carters Beach, Cape Foulwind and Tauranga Bay complicate the page, I personally think that's fairly clean and with the fact that they are part of Westport, they would have the same Eat, Do, See items -- I'd like to leave those three together for now and see if when the Sleep section gets organized it all feels better. I of course agree with User:Nurg that a business that offers two different services shouldn't fall under the rule of not duplicating. So I'd like to add Bazil's Hostel back in, particularly because it is a hostel. If there isn't further disagreement, I'll do that shortly. Thank you all for weighing in. I've been quite happy to work on this page as I'm an enthusiastic tourist/resident of the area and it has so much to offer. --PDXMaria (talk) 03:05, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
- Subdivision is really needed here; Avoid long lists is an actual WV policy. I wonder whether Carters Beach and Cape Foulwind (with Tauranga Bay) should have their own articles; this would help reduce the mess here. Ibaman (talk) 13:18, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
- I think the locations are the most important aspect of the Sleep listings, so that should be the main division. Cost is standard, but it is nowadays often hard to tell, as many lodgings have fluctuating prices, depending on day, marketing channel and person asking. I suppose the categories roughly indicate the price range – but yes, keeping to the standard is good. –LPfi (talk) 11:44, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
- I think the multiple listing restriction applies mainly to restaurant cum bar, or accommodation with restaurant and/or bar. It doesn't often arise for Do and Sleep entries and I think a surf school is so different from the hospitality-type listing that two entries are justified. If the surf school is only open to guests at the hostel, I would more likely keep it to a single listing. I agree with LPfi that the long lists should be subdivided. The usual criteria though is price, not type. The Eat/Drink and Sleep lists should be subdivided into the three standard sections of Budget, Mid-range, Splurge. Nurg (talk) 09:21, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
- I have had the same problem in Finnish Lapland and in the Finnish archipelago, duplicating listings and inserting seealsos, but in these cases there were usually still few listings in each. I don't have a firm opinion on this case. Perhaps the Westport sleep list should be divided also by type, getting the individual lists down to 7±2. I see B&B, motel, motor lodge, motor hotel and hotel in the names – do these (read: groups of these) have specific target groups, making them useful as dividing criteria? –LPfi (talk) 06:33, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
- However, per Don't tout and External links Bazil's must get one listing only. If you duplicate the listing, two markers of different colors will overlap each other on the map and this is a NO-NO-NO in Wikivoyage. Sorry if I sound harsh, but you seem to want to override selected fine points of policy and discussion just for the pleasure of having "your way" about "your page", which is also a no-no-no. Ibaman (talk) 10:26, 12 October 2020 (UTC)