User talk:Nikoghosyanmarianna

Welcome

Hello, Nikoghosyanmarianna! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

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Thank you for your work on articles relating to Armenia. Please take note of two points: tours are generally not allowed on Wikivoyage, though there's no blanket ban and the details of the policy can be found Wikivoyage:Tour; museums should be listed in the 'See' section of an article, and a handy reference page for knowing where things go in an article is Wikivoyage:Where you can stick it.

Please let me know if you have any questions. All the best, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:13, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

@ThunderingTyphoons!: Thanks for your message and tips. For your information, the tours listed are not tour agencies, they are done by local individual guides which I think is a useful information to have as a tourist. The museums are listed indeed under See, however when they provide interesting workshops, I list them under Do. Let me know if this is wrong please.--Nikoghosyanmarianna (talk) 10:22, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. Whether a tour is run by an individual or an agency is not a factor in whether we list them or not. The deciding criteria are set out on the policy page I linked above, but boil down to whether they constitute a "value added" activity over and above what visitors can achieve by themselves. For example, a horse and carriage ride is clearly something that's only possible for most as part of an organised activity, whereas a walking tour would have to provide considerable extras in order to constitute value added (e.g. cookery workshops, privileged access to an attraction, commentary on a particular topic by an expert...), otherwise you're just being led by someone with a big mouth around places you could have visited by yourself.

For the museum workshops, I do think it's quite normal for museums to put on hands-on activities in addition to exhibitions, yet museums are still a 'See'. In most cases we only provide a full listing for a single attraction once. This is partly to avoid attraction owners listing themselves multiple times as a form of touting, but also to make sure that all the contact details and practicalities are in the same place in the article, which makes them easy to keep updated. With that being said, if you feel strongly that the workshops belong in 'Do' (for example if you know that the workshops are popular among visitors, and readers may otherwise struggle to find them in the article), you could mention and describe them there, while pointing readers to the full museum in listing in 'See' for contact details etc.

I hope this is all clear, but let me know if not.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:00, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

@ThunderingTyphoons!: Thanks, will review and continue with the above mentioned in mind. Just a note, a knowledgeable guide is not at all "someone with a big mouth." Not everything is written on internet. Anyways, will adhere to the policies.--Nikoghosyanmarianna (talk) 11:13, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

As I said, tours guided by an expert (e.g. a tour of ruins given by an archaeologist, a birdwatching excursion given by a wildlife ranger etc) would be encouraged. A tour by a professional tour guide without any specialist knowledge usually wouldn't without an additional value-added element.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:07, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

I didn't think there were restrictions on the types of walking tours that could be listed. We should have a discussion at Wikivoyage talk:Listings, but I thought that was settled. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:43, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

See Wikivoyage talk:Listings/Archive 2018#Discussion after policy change and the following "Discussion/vote on new language?" section, which did not produce any restrictions. All walking tours may be listed if done so in a way that otherwise follows site guidelines such as Wikivoyage:Don't tout; also, please don't include default address information (name of the city if it's the same as the article title, name of the country) in the address tab. ThunderingTyphoons!, if you'd like to argue for restrictions on the types of walking tours that may be listed, please unarchive the relevant threads and restart the discussion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:18, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: The only mention of walking tours in the policy is "This policy doesn't prohibit listing walking tours."; it doesn't say "All walking tours may be listed", and it certainly doesn't mean that (whether it was intended to mean that is another matter entirely). What the policy does say is "In practice this policy disallows listing most audio tours and guided tours since the substance of such tours can generally be fulfilled by an independent traveller, and the information provided on such tours should ideally be included in the appropriate Wikivoyage article." I would take "guided tours" to implicitly include walking tours. So perhaps you'd like to start a new discussion, but I think my interpretation is supported by the current policy.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:44, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Did you have a chance to read through the threads I mentioned above? Like I said, we could resume the discussion, but it's good to know where we stood the last time the subject was broached. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:56, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

I didn't, because I'm not seeking to change the policy. As I said, the current policy seems to support my comments above.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:03, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

In case it hasn't been clear, I disagree that you're not seeking to change policy. Just as Congressional history is relevant to the courts in establishing the intent of laws, talk page history is relevant to the interpretation of guidelines. Please read Wikivoyage talk:Listings#Another thread on walking tours and comment. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:24, 19 August 2021 (UTC)