To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. If you are familiar with Wikipedia, take a look over some of the differences here. Pashley (talk) 04:31, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Your comments at Talk of the Indonesia article are good points, and should be encouraged - welcome and hope to see more comments from you like that. Wikivoyage needs on-site editors like yourself (I lived there in the 90's during the New Order era) - cheers sats (talk) 09:26, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- It is a freudian slip to put help wikimedia on your user page - this is wikivoyage and wikipedia is the other part :), wikimedia (like the conference in jakarta which I didnt get to) is like the management section. Take care with wikivoyage logic - however if you have javanese culture as part of your day to day life, the inherent logic of the ngoko/kromo inggil levels (the different ways of 'hearing' 'inggih' from the north coast, or the southern parts of central java, or the either ends...) would be a good parallel to how to understand the wikipedia en and wikivoyage differences. If I am obscure or my metaphors dont quite work, send me an email sometime - cheers sats (talk) 09:46, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Your comments at Talk of the Indonesia article are good points, and should be encouraged - welcome and hope to see more comments from you like that. Wikivoyage needs on-site editors like yourself (I lived there in the 90's during the New Order era) - cheers sats (talk) 09:26, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Hi. I really felt impelled to revert that new edit of yours. I know you mean to provide colorful commentary, but I am not willing to support what read to me as ethnocentric or otherwise belittling critiques of people's beliefs. I would be OK with calling these Indonesian beliefs, but the tone needs to be very careful. And so you know where I come from on this, my mother was apprenticed to a great bomoh (traditional healer) in Malaysia, who was no fraud or sleight-of-hand trickster but a man who used massage, herbal treatments, a form of traditional psychotherapy, and also jampi (spells) to help people get better (placebo effect has to be a part of every successful treatment). I have personal experience of professional traditional healers who were honest men and women and didn't make any outrageous claims. I also don't think there's anything weird about considering the placenta the older sibling of the baby who has no soul and is buried with respect. And there are beliefs a lot of people have in the US that are just as weird if not weirder than any of the beliefs you posted about. Like, how many Americans believe the World is 6,000 years old and dinosaurs either never existed or coexisted with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? Would you like someone to post in detail, calling these "American superstitions"? I would not and wouldn't accept it. And I don't want us to be in the business of judging the degree of reliance on logic from Indonesians, either. There are various Indonesian traditions, and their traditional sense of time is different from the dominant Western paradigm, but they were able to deviate from the traditions embodied in things like the structure of the gamelan in order to defeat dictatorship and bring democracy, and whatever troubles they are dealing with, I give them my respect.
Please excuse the rant; I know you mean no harm, and I hope you are not insulted or greatly antagonized by my take on this.
All the best,
- Okay, first I wish you had tried to improve the addition instead of removing it because it is of importance to tourists - superstition permeates life here in so many ways that I could probably write a book about it (but won't!). I think it would've been excellent if you'd provided counter-point with some of your comments above, such as the traditional healers, which fall into a different group than dukun IMHO, although they may indeed be called dukun with some exceptions, such as the sangkal putung, who specializes in chiropractics and repairing damage to muscles, ligaments, tendons and joints. I was not trying to be ethnocentric, although it is pretty difficult to avoid such biases, and my intent was pure. In fact, I implore you to restore the section on superstitions with some amendments and additions that provide a more neutral viewpoint. Please note that introductory material to new editors on WV specifically states that we are no really into being politically correct or neutral, but rather fair. I can provide the link if you need it.
- It matters not at all to me if you mention such ridiculous claims as Bishop Ussher's. I am not a superstitious person, and I'm very skeptical of the supernatural (which I distinguish from things like UFO's, undiscovered species of creatures and ESP). They are what they are - false beliefs - just like the Flat Earthers, albeit the things you mentioned are specifically tied to Christian sects in the US and are not mainstream. So, go ahead and criticize superstitions in the US or anywhere else - I gladly work on ridding the world of such ignorant thinking. If someone can show me the truth in a superstition, that I will be more than willing to consider, but the bunk is just bunk, no two ways around it.
- I concede the point about logic is probably unfair, but please note I did provide counter-point on that by talking about intellectuals here. I have had several conversations with such individuals, people who can't get a "regular" job and so make do with a "lesser" job, but are terribly smart.
- I am afraid I've forgotten what I wrote about their sense of time but waktu karet (rubber time) has a massive impact on most aspects of society and business here. It is extremely relevant to just about anyone who might want to learn about Indonesia for any reason whatsoever, especially if they plan to spend any amount of time here.
- I do not really understand why you apparently don't consider the animistic treatment of afterbirth as something other than superstition. It is an excellent example of superstition, respectfulness notwithstanding.
- Your closing comments bring up something that should definitely be in the culture section if it isn't already. That is the extreme flexibility and adaptability of Indonesians. It is, in my opinion, one of their greatest strengths, but can also cause problems. It has caused them to be able to survive cultural, religious, and physical invasions, integrate new beliefs into their lives, and in general advance themselves through emulation. They are also very resilient and tolerant, but not to a fault.
- One final thing I wish to make absolutely clear: There are things about Indonesia I really dislike and, since most of my experiences have been with the Javanese, I can certainly point out good and bad aspects of their culture. However, I can just as easily pick apart America, and have done so many times. However, I believe that Indonesia has immense potential to become a world leader, and one that is a good deal better than America if things play out correctly. I think Jayabaya's prediction, made oh so long ago, may come true someday - at least in a sense. Indonesia has the people and the resources, it has the tolerance and the desire for harmony. Now, it just needs to find balance within itself so that it can retain harmony without breeding corruption, and provide superior education so that the country can advance in the truest sense - and I don't mean become another puppet or emulator of America!
- Antagonized - no. Frustrated, perhaps. ;) I don't feel that reverts should be the automatic response to something one disagrees with but, instead, an attempt to reach middle ground should be made through consensus, which is supposed to be a guiding principle here, as I understand it. ReveurGAM (talk) 13:02, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry if that came across the wrong way. I'm a great communicator, but I'm a terrible diplomat. :( ReveurGAM (talk) 15:44, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- "Superstition" is really nothing other than a belief that the speaker/writer is deprecating, and I think you demonstrate this with your remarks about the placenta - the beliefs about the placenta are no more of a "superstition" than any other kind of belief about souls, and it seems like you think belief in any god or gods is also a type of superstition. That's a fine opinion for you to have, but I don't agree with deprecating people's beliefs in a travel guide. We aren't in the business of suppressing or fighting people's beliefs, religion, or culture here, neither in Indonesia nor in the US - again, this is a travel guide, and we don't have a guiding ideology we're fighting for here. It's fine for you to talk about "rubber time" - that affects visitors - but I'd much rather direct people to real anthropological writing about what you call "superstitions," and since we don't usually provide external links to anthropological texts, I would strongly suggest we not include judgmental language about "witch-doctors" and the like. I may review the reverted text later to see if I can salvage any of it for a merely descriptive treatment, with a subheading like "Some Indonesian beliefs and practices." Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:12, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Hi. I made an attempt at reintroducing most of the content I reverted, with a different and much more matter-of-fact tone. I'm still unsure whether the context makes it all seem like a bunch of benighted malarkey, and if it does, I'd rather none of it be included. But here it is: Indonesia#Folk_religion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:35, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Please see the definition I've provided on Indonesia's talk page of superstition.
- Although I get your point, I disagree in principle about the issue of the placenta as being comparable to souls. You said that it has no soul, didn't you? Or am I misremembering? It is one thing to say that one has a soul, which is completely unprovable and thus slides into the grey and slippery realm of religion. It is a completely different thing to say that the afterbirth is a twin, when it never had the ability to live on its own, bears NO resemblance to a human baby, and is not much more than a fancy egg shell. This can be debunked in no time flat, so your analogy doesn't work. I can see that this has obviously struck a nerve with you, and I'm sorry about that, but I really do have strong feelings about superstitions.
- I see you have mis-inferred that belief in a deity is a superstition. At the risk of boring you, I will reiterate: I believe in the creator, NOT in religions. The Creator is synonymous with words like God, supreme deity, Allah, Jehovah, YHWH, Brahma (sic?), the Holy Spirit, the Lord and the Lady, etc. It doesn't matter what name one uses, it's one deity IMHO. I'm not deprecating people's beliefs, or at least not trying to - I'm trying to make travellers aware of the influence stuperstitions have on culture (and, yes, on religion, but I think that's best left out as I said elsewhere).
- I like what you did with the folk religion section but I'm not sure that "...the spirits may attack people nearby, necessitating a healing ceremony and the propitiation of the spirits..." is correct. Honestly, I just do not know about the accuracy of that statement, but it wouldn't surprise me. In that sentence, though, you might want to replace "keris" with a less specific noun like "inhabited object" or "enchanted possession" or something, as not only keris are subject to such habitation. Also, may I suggest that you replace "is quite commonly employed by mystics" with "is sometimes employed by some mystics and traditional healers". This is not in any way meant to disparage your loved one or healers in general but rather to make travellers aware that they visit such healers at their own risk (ie: there are quacks and frauds out there). I even met one quack who was a sangkal putung, upon the recommendation of a co-worker when I was injured at work. Actually, I like what you did with the folk religion section so much that I hope someone else can provide more examples and information about it. I think it will fascinate readers - it certainly catches MY attention (agnostics can be fascinated by such things, can't they?)! :)
- Please don't take this personally, because it isn't meant to be personal - I am relating fact, not passing judgement, okay? ReveurGAM (talk) 18:08, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Hi ReveurGAM, I am relieved to see that you understand that any comments about your work on the Indonesia article are not bearing any hostility. I wandered here to offer a belated welcome to WV and also to explain what is going on on the Indonesia Talk page. Though there is a body of commentary on your contributions there it has all become a little buried and confused amongst some dialogue concerning English language usage. Please do understand all that is not about you, other than that you are the inadvertent bearer of an example of a long standing internal policy and guideline issue. There is an occasional flare up of that issue, it gets discussed, then everyone just tacitly agrees to forget about it again. If I had been a bit smarter I would have just changed all your En (US) edits to 'Commonwealth' En, not mentioned it so publicly and just left notes of it in the edit comments. However you are new to the project and I did want you to understand why such a thing might be done when you had made a no doubt well intentioned effort to 'correct' spelling in the article. Now the lid is back off the can of linguistic chestnuts again. If this were an article in a region that used En (US) I would probably be doing the opposite and moving it to En (US) if I had time on my hands. Normally I will only do that sort of thing if I am fixing up a single recent edit, or scanning through an entire article in depth seeking multiple remedies, and so just tidy up the language thing on-route.
- At the head of this section Ikan Kekek provided some comments, I will not elaborate on them other than to say that I agree with them 100%, that content alarmed me a little when I read through it and was motivating some of my appeals to go back through you already completed edits and review them before moving forward into any other sections.
- I am forming the viewpoint that the problem here is more one of subjectivity and ethnocentricity. I provided some commentary on that on the Indonesia article talk page but it may be too obscured to notice it. We need to really strive to deliver a neutral POV, yet not end up with something really flat and lifeless. Also we avoid wandering too much toward the encyclopaedic, that happens over at Wikipedia, yet we should still be informing, accurate and objective. On the subject of anthropological writing one of most interesting articles I have stumbled upon is From Ancestor Worship to Monotheism Politics of Religion in Lombok, by Sven Cederroth.
- As a young Ph.D student he travelled to the island of Lombok, this was in 1972, and he sought to begin anthropological fieldwork for his thesis. Somewhat serendipitously he found himself in North Lombok and in the midst of the Waktu Telu people on the northern and north western slopes of Mount Rinjani. He had found himself a little out on his timing for his chosen field of interest in Central Lombok, and so headed north seeking an alternative venue. He found a remnant of what was only 7 or so years before still a dominant belief system of the island. It is a religious syncretism in which there are traces not only of Islam, but of Hinduism and pantheistic beliefs.
- He found himself amongst a most interesting group of people, and in interesting times, to quote the author; "the Wetu Telu religion has many basic features in common not only with Balinese Hinduism but also, and perhaps above all, with Javanese Islamic syncretism (Agami Jawi). The central role of the ancestors stands out as especially important among such common elements. This is based on a philosophy which is rooted in a belief about life as a kind of continuous flow, in the course of which a powerful element, commonly labelled a soul, is generated. During life, the soul is contained within the body, and although it may leave its abode temporarily, for instance during sleep, it always returns to the person concerned. At death, the soul has to abandon the body but does not cease to exist. It now feels deserted and homeless and starts to roam the surroundings at will. To placate and appease such potentially dangerous souls, a series of rituals is required, whereby the soul is guided to the hereafter. In this process the deceased is transformed into an ancestor. There are many other common elements between Wetu Telu and Agami Jawi, such as an interest in mystical speculation which often involves number and colour magic of some kind".
- Also in this region of the island are the Boda or Bodha people (alt) Buda. According to van Eerde (1901: 295), "the Boda recognize the existence of five main gods, the highest of which is Batara Guru, followed by Batara Sakti and Batara Jeneng with their wives Idadari Sakti and Idadari Jeneng. It is not known if these gods possess any individual powers or character traits. Besides these five main gods there are many other gods and spirits who dwell at certain places in the surrounding nature. These beings control the fertility of the land and thus the welfare of the people and can also cause much trouble and sicknesses if irritated. It is therefore essential to keep up a good relationship with these supernatural beings."
- These characteristics are observable, a bit of patient enquiry may be required but then it starts to reveal itself. I have had the pleasure to spend some time with one now senior men who was as a young man Sven Cederroth's principal 'guide' and friend during his time there. He is a cultural repository of some interest. Apparently Sven Cederroth still visits the region. He is now retired and when he ceased his University tenure the article mentioned above became much harder to readily source, previously it was openly available on his University's website.
- Sven Cederroth found himself not just in the midst of this contracting and previously dominant belief system, but also in the middle of a central government intervention as part of the Republic's then program of 'Agamaisation'. This was an outcome of a pancasila inspired decree from the New Order of the Suharto regime.
- Much as the island's dominant Waktu Lima Muslims adherents represent a fairly standard interpretation of orthodox doctrinal Islam of the Syafii school if you scratch the surface of any of them, in fact just poke at them gently it may be revealed that lurking within are "not only the inner beliefs and outward expression of normally quite relaxed but very committed embodied Islamic beliefs, but also that of Hinduism and pantheistic beliefs".
- Yet many Sasak Waktu Lima Muslims will deny this quite openly, and may be openly surprised when they come across Waktu Telu. They see in these people elements of themselves, and yet something they also understood as being inherently Hindu, and also what they understand is clearly common Adat, yet it is different. A friend commented to me once, why are these Hindu people reading from the Koran and behaving like they are Muslim, yet also behaving as though they are Hindu, yet they also don't appear to either of those things.
- Sven Cederroth explains it well, and in context and his paper tells a fascinating story. There are also Hindu villages in that region, and some that are mixed Hindu and Muslim in a sort of socio-religious jigsaw puzzle. Many of them are Sasak, rather then transmigrasi subjects. Under the social veneer of religious harmony lies a subplot of Waktu Telu. It is quite fascination and most certainly multi dimensional.
- This is bit like buying a classic Oldsmobile, yet when you open the door a Mercury interior is found inside. On the occasions that I have explained what is going on I get often get a slightly bemused reaction, then they look back at what they see in front of their eyes an generally decide that although my explanation is quite bizarre it is a lot less bizarre that what they are seeing with their own eyes. Now I am talking about other Sasak people here, from only a relatively short distance south of the principal Waktu Telu areas. Also of note is that people of clear Sasak Waktu Lima identity will often head north if there is trouble that needs consultation, the bigger the problem, the further north they go until eventually they are back in the spiritual embrace of Waktu Telu.
- Now I must make it clear here, I am no romantic, I am ruthlessly cynical, often to my own detriment. I have been involved in some of these urgent dashes north due to illness, lost love, too much love, theft, death, a search for answers, a cure for jealousy, a quest for retribution, a search for justice or for healing, indeed the full gambit of human existence.
- I have watched people sit before a notable Dukun who has presented a full outline of why they are there, what happened, who did it (and that may be mystery to the enquirer), what time it happened, what day, which way someone walked, often even a full and detailed description and history of that 'unseen' person, but without any prompting or any of the other classic 'tells' of the ubiquitous soothsayer, crystal ball gazer, card reader or carnival psychic.
- Often a range of options are outlined and remedy is sought. My own observations tell me that a lot of what follows comes from expectation, a thief may become 'hot', an over amorous lover may 'forget' their quest. A perpetrator may find themselves wandering around a location in a perplexed state of bewilderment.
- Sometimes nothing happens, but often that is something in itself. A lot rides on the subjects expectations. If holding suitable convictions, and just about every Sasak person does, any thief who 'hears' or suspects intervention will likely burn themselves up in trepidation. Pity any hapless individual who coincidently becomes febrile from some pathogen going around, they may even think they are the unknown thief and have forgotten perpetrating the deed through a mysterious amnesia. They have become too 'hot' for it to not be true. I could recite many more examples but I will restrain myself.
- My reply will be a lot briefer. I wrote incorrectly. The afterbirth is believed to have a soul, but no body that can live. Malays, too, have the same traditional belief about the afterbirth, and I don't think the idea that it's the baby's twin should be taken any more literally than the idea that Jews have that we are all children of God. I could be wrong, but I don't think any Malays or Indonesians would think that the afterbirth is actually a twin in the same way that twin babies are twins of each other.
- Well done! FYI, Christians, at least Americans, believe we are all children of God, too, not just the Jews, but I would suggest that it might better be described as the chosen people, rather than God's children (literal). The issue with the "twin" is not whether or not they actually believe it to be a twin but that an animistic tradition is used at all by monotheistic practitioners.
- What a fascinating experience you've related, Felix! What excellent examples of folk beliefs, syncretism and superstition! How much of that is from Sven and how much from you? I'm a bit curious, because you seem to have implied that you are Sasakian. Is that incorrect?
- As for what my problems are, please see my comments here and elsewhere regarding that.
- I will have to disagree with you about a neutral POV as introductory material for new editors here on WV specifically disagrees with that and makes the distinction of being fair rather than being neutral. We are also invited to make articles lively and colorful, and it is specifically asked that entries not be encyclopedic. This is separate from my problems with subjectivity, bias and lack of clarity. Further, I think you should just drop the whole thing about EN-UK and EN-US if you want to get new editors. It serves no purpose that is as valuable as the contributions of editors. Just my opinion. Thanks! ReveurGAM (talk) 06:37, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- I certainly agree with that as well. I was referring to striving for a 'neutral POV' or 'tone' in regard to writing from an ethnocentric POV in regard to some commentary in sections of the article on Indonesia that referred to Indonesian culture and society.
- That does not embody a suggestion that the entire article 'style', or that of the broader 'travel wiki' should be in a neutral tone, it would become a bit boring if it was.
- Of course it can be challenging not to be 'ethnocentric', in generally terms we of course all stand in our own shoes and see things as however we may.
- It should not be overlooked that we do have a wide readership here. Not everyone has the same socio-cultural filters, background, or the same way of processing context, nor do we all have the same cultural dispositions. This is a travellers guide so we seek to provide something that is from a travellers viewpoint, whilst always bearing in mind that those travellers have some quite diverse backgrounds.
- A challenge exists in both stepping outside our own shoes, but whilst still relating things as we see them, this project is meant to be something written by travellers, for travellers, but whilst still remaining broadly informing, and accurate in content.
- When I first commented on the Indonesia article's Talk page I mentioned this; "We are not 'encyclopedic', this is a travel wiki, but still we need to be really clear and concise on some matters, like visa procedures, road laws and similar. Please have a look at the outline headed Lively writing is welcome, also have a look at the general content of the article on Tone. I most certainly don't wish to dampen your 'writing from the travellers perspective', so it is important to refer you there as it is well defined in the project's guidelines and policies. That is an essential ingredient here and an underpinning of the entire project. Be fair also has some pointers."
- Also somewhere on the three concurrent discussions I note a concern about the use of "ethnocentric", it bears no unstated meaning, only it's standard dictionary meaning of "evaluating other peoples and cultures according to the standards of one's own culture". We are all ethnocentric. Even if campur, then the world is still most likely just viewed through a campur filter determined by the sum of the ingredients provided.
- Also I feel that you need not be overly concerned about the discourse on UK/US En. That is an old project chestnut getting another airing and you are just caught up in it. I hope we can move on from there as personally I believe there are thorougly more engaging topics being discussed on this page. Even if much of it may not find it's way into the article on Indonesia it certainly may assist in defining some interesting content that ultimately does. cheers-- Felix (talk) 21:18, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Hi ReveurGAM, Thanks for all your understanding and patience concerning the outlines of guidelines and policies here. Your enthusiasm, adept writing skills and depth of experience is a valuable asset to the project. When I saw your recent comments at Talk Indonesia concerning Semarang I felt really encouraged. That article is languishing for lack of attention. It is out of date, thin on good contextual detail and crying out for attention. I just visited it and tidied up some Get in detail and I am going to do a Airline destination table for the article to provide it with some updating.
- Semarang really needs some good detailed destination input. If you can find some time to improve that article it would be a great contribution toward the Indonesian article group and a most excellent choice of article to hone your quick developing WV skills. You have a good idea now of who shares your interest in the Indonesian articles so call on any of us at any time if you need to discuss anything or have a policy/guideline query. We need editors and contributors like you that transcend a quick visit update input and can provide this group of articles with more depth and interest. Please do be encouraged to embrace the project and Plunge forward, and welcome to Wikivoyage. -- Felix (talk) 15:09, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Hmmm - my wife did her Phd with a midwife (dukun bayi) on the upper side of Gunung Merapi and I did post grad work south of jogja in a place that has more things that can be labelled what you like (considering what you had written) - give me an email sometime, it would be useful for me at least to have a conversation on this off wiki. cheers, and if you can bring youself to email me, matur nuwun...
- Hey, this is the first time I've heard of such a midwife. My wife says she thinks they don't have any formal training, but doesn't really seem to know much about them. Is this correct?
- I can't seem to find your user pages, can you link to them please so that I can email you? Sami-sami! ReveurGAM (talk) 13:02, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
(copy at ikans talk page of this same message) real life and indonesian folklore have had a few days attending to real life, and will try to read all the comings and goings with the Indonesian article - once I have read all the talk material, and changes in articles, will decide whether I am interested in getting involved. Having both my wife and I do Phd level anthropology field work in Java, I find quite a lot that I have read so far quite to be debatable, but whether, in the end it is worth taking on the opinions or even commenting here on wikivoyage is debatable. I might in the end just remain silent, and edit the atrociously under-written Tasmanian articles the talk pages are already far too full, and honestly 'Indonesian superstitions' aka folklore, was in my head for over 15 years, to have to deal with others experiences or ideas might not necessarily be of any benefit to a wikivoyage article or two in the end... it might just muddy the waters... sats (talk) 15:07, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- resolved - TMI - I have got up read it all, and think, so much of this is not even going into content of wikivoyage. I'll come back to it all when things have died down. or I have a very large block of time to wade through it all to comment. otherwise enjoy! sats (talk) 00:39, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
think about it - imho - there are some places in Java not worth mentioning - see http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Talk:Indonesia#Do_.26_places_to_visit sats (talk) 14:25, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
I have had an accident. I've got 1st-3rd degree burns over part of my body, but only my right hand is severe. I have several blisters there, including 3 of my fingrtips, so I'm afraid that my productivity is going to be quite poor for the next 2-4 weeks. I apologize f this inconveniences anyone. I will monitor this page. ReveurGAM (talk) 12:48, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- Oh my God, that's horrible! So sorry to hear. Take care of yourself and don't worry about the site. It'll still be here whenever you come back. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:27, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- How DID you get your tongue in both cheeks at the same time? ;) ReveurGAM (talk) 15:03, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- My son returned from london this am with suspected DVT = now there is a good travel article :) - after hours in an emergency place it has been discounted - has left me a bit shellshocked waking very early am to pick up a limping boy.... I dont think leaving small essays on talk pages of subject about Indonesia appeals to me in the slightest at the moment. How to strike a balance between a vacuous nothing mention of history and a thorough explanation of the complexities of the Indonesian history of the last 50 years (and how that might explain a range of phenomenon a visitor might have to encounter to get in and out of the country) is something I could waste a vast amount of your time, allowing for my rather sleep deprived sense of the macabre. Thinking of that - trust you are recoved the bad parts of your accident by now. just in the short term expect belligerently obtuse comments from my sleep deprived self - all meant in good faith mind you - and for freds sake dont try to find consistency in what I am writing - that would be tragic... cheers sats (talk) 09:27, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
- My deepest sympathy for your son's condition - one of my best friends stateside was just released from hospital after 45 days being treated for and recuperating from a fistula in his cerebellum that resulted in spinal swelling, which resulted in paralysis of his lower body. He is a real trooper and has already begun to be able to walk - his story is quite inspiring. If you'd like, I can either point you to the appropriate Facebook page or email it to you if you think it might inspire your son. I hope that you will be able to get some sleep!
- My injuries are improving although I've had to abandon the antibiotic ointment (nebacetin) as it was causing some sort of strange rash/fungal infection/alien growth (whatever it is, I don't know). Aloe vera is helping to keep things on track but the NSAID and allergy med are making me dizzy and causing me to sleep too much. All in all, though, I'm pleased with the progress.
- History is such an important thing and yet it is so horribly distorted ("History is written by the victors.") that any attempt to do it well and completely is like asking a blind person to navigate a minefield with only a walking stick for help. I can see both sides of the argument about its presence in a tour guide and I certainly won't attempt to go there with you. I think that to provide a truly useful history section one would have to write a series of articles that link to each other in a most confusing manner and that address history on the national, regional and local levels, taking into consideration where and when each foreign culture/religion/whatnot was involved - but let's not forget the various kingdoms of Indonesia itself and the numerous cultures and religions of this archipelago. In short, it would take several historians several lifetimes to do it well. Despite my interest in history, I cannot count myself as a hopeful candidate for such an endeavor, and I think it is pretty much impossible to do it anyways without having a time travel machine and complete access to everything and everyone etc. etc. etc. blah blah blah ad infinitum ad nauseum. :) ReveurGAM (talk) 12:55, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
you have to be kidding - it is universal in the whole of indonesia, if not the third world - driving is bad, I have no idea why you think that is relevant, that is partisan and biased - on wp en youd get blocked for that sort of revert. We have people in western australoia that have yogya kraton stickers on the back of the cars (why I have no idea why) - should we watch them when they are driving in australia. Nah I'd say the article is very short on other details - that is an un-needed one... cheers - trust the wounds are better... sats (talk) 15:34, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
- You seem to be in rather a bad mood, judging from this and from a comment you made on a change to someone else's edit on Semarang. I'm sorry that things have been tough on you, but perhaps you should take a step back. Are you allowing your attachment to the region to cloud your judgement of others' comments? As I have already explained, driving in Solo is an unpleasant experience compared to Semarang. I've never driven in Jakarta or Bandung, but I've been a passenger so I know that they are also pretty bad, although what I remember of Bandung was the traffic jams. I have also driven (several times) between Semarang and Jogja/Solo as well as Semarang and Banyumas, and I recently took a road trip to Surabaya. The worst thing I could say about driving in Surabaya is that, with all the one-way streets and construction obstruction, it becomes difficult for a traveler to get around if they aren't being driven by someone who's intimately familiar with the city and the situation. No problem with the drivers - certainly not like in Solo!
- I don't get how you can possibly call what I wrote "partisan" (which means "Prejudiced in favor of a particular cause.") or biased, since it is neither. I have no bias against Solo - in fact, for the historical culture and value, as well as surrounding attractions (such as the palace, museums, Pithecanthropus exhibit, Candi Sukuh, etc.), I highly reocmmend Surakarta. I just don't like driving there and the last time I went there, on the way home two cars from Solo nearly drove us off the road in their hurry to get in front of us so that they could pull over onto the shoulder! If wp en would block me for such a revert, then I would call that silly, stupid even. I am trying to make travelers aware of the difference in driving styles (which may very well disappear at the rate that Semarang is currently growing and changing), which can certainly impact their experience. How is that wrong to alert them to a fact that will affect them when they are in Solo?
- My wounds are getting much better - no 3rd degree burns, as it turns out, thanks! ReveurGAM (talk) 02:16, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
- well we are on different planets - I suppose I dont take time to parse others comments for a start.... All of Indonesia is a trafic problem, and is likely to be forever, have you ever tried to get anywhere on Java close to idul fitri? My template for understanding what travellers need to know simply dosnt pass judgements over regional driving styles - that is not bad mood or temper ... I really think there are more important ways of passing judgement on local conditions... sats (talk) 08:06, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
- Now that's an over-generalization that begs definition. If you're talking about major inter-city/inter-province thoroughfares, especially in/near cities or between important points, or when there's construction, then there are definite problems. That only refers to traffic patterns (and the way they drive here). If you look at other areas, such problems don't necessarily exist, but you get a different sort of problem - road disrepair, or winding mountainous roads that make a short trip long and risky when some bonehead decides to pass on a blind curve (or just decides to use the wrong lane). If you define traffic problem as the me-first, damned the torpedoes attitude many drivers display, especially in cities and the mototrack wannabe's, it is certainly a problem in most places I've driven, although it is mostly just the long-haul drivers and bikers in any given village who race about. However, there are also areas where driving is peaceful and slow.
- I don't see why we need to be "on different planets" - the purpose of WV is to inform travelers of what to expect. If the degree of difficulties in driving in Solo is noticably better or worse, then that should be mentioned because it affects travelers, don't you think? No, wait, you've already indicated you don't agree. If I were a traveler planning to motor about Indonesia, that is something that I would want to know. I am not passing judgement but rather pointing the difference out in a vivid and appropriate manner. I don't "get" why you feel that it's unimportant for people to be made aware of local driving conditions. Should I also refrain from such a general statement in the Indonesia article regarding the general style of driving here? Just because you're a world traveler who knows about driving conditions throughout the third world doesn't mean that every traveler does. It's not a Captain Obvious statement to the inexperienced. I was caught completely unawares when I arrived here, and my parents felt likewise although we've driven up into Canada and across the border of Mexico, and through several states and cities. My father also spent time in Hungary years ago. So, then, are you suggesting that WV be written for experienced travelers alone - those who need WV less? I don't really believe you mean that, though.
- I will save certain comments for email as they are inappropriate here. How'd you like what I added in "learn"?
- Ah "mudik"? "OMG!" It is such an unhappy experience and, as someone deeply concerned for the environment, it drives me nuts for many reasons. Yes, I HATE driving during that time - unless I'm IN Jakarta; that's the only time I like Jakarta - when it's vacated. ReveurGAM (talk) 12:29, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Hi there. Just wanted to explain why I´m undoing your edit to the Learn section of Semarang. Usually we don´t even include a Learn section unless there are very short courses or seminars which would be of interest to the traveller. We try not to give lists and details of every university, college, and school because generally they require that someone would live there to take advantage of it. If however, a university is architecturally or culturally interesting for the average traveller to have a look, you can describe it in the See section. But the Learn section should be only for courses a traveller can actually take without going through an acceptance process, moving there, finding a long-term apartment, etc. Also see Wikivoyage:Article_templates/Sections#Learn. Let me know if you have any questions. Thanks. Texugo (talk) 11:49, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
ACK! I wish I'd known that sooner, rather than having wasted all the time I spent on collecting that info. :( However, I DO have questions:
- 1) Why is it called "Learn" if a university is included because of architecture or culture? Doesn't that belong elsewhere in the article, like places to visit/points of interest/culture? The University of Indonesia, for example, has some rather odd architecture and the library looks like a rock-come-castle. UNDIP was mentioned by the previous editor so I just followed the example set - there's nothing more or less interesting about its architecture (or UNNES').
- 2) I'm not sure how I could define an institution as being culturally interesting - any pointers?
- 3) Is then the type of traveler who intends on (or ends up) staying longer not a target of WV, which would explain the policy you've outlined? Where would such a person (I am one such person who "ended up" here) go to find such info if not here?
I know there are courses of the type you mentioned, such as Indonesian Immersion programs, but I know next to nothing about them and the national program for expat students has already been discussed in the Indonesia article's Learn section. Thanks for your answers! ReveurGAM (talk) 12:40, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
- OK, here goes:
- 1) As I said, if it is included because of architectural or cultural interest, it should go in the See section, not in Learn.
- 2) For example, if significant historical events occurred there, if it has monuments, graves, sculptures, etc., if it has a museums or theatres open to the public, etc.
- 3) The status quo is that we are not here to cover issues of residence in a place, though there are some fringe cases such as Retiring abroad and Working abroad which try to give some very general pointers toward where to find such information. This is an issue of scope and it does come up from time to time. You might find this discussion interesting.
- Texugo (talk) 13:23, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks! Sorry, I overlooked the "See" comment. ReveurGAM (talk) 14:37, 25 February 2013 (UTC)