Talk:Finnish Lapland

"The last refuge of the Sámi people"?! I wonder who wrote this article, there are more inaccuracy (or unconventional) facts... --195.148.29.45 16:00, 17 November 2008 (EST)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_history

...but I corrected it to the last refuge of Finland's Sami, there are more in Sweden and Norway. (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:13, 18 November 2008 (EST)

Word refuge in this contact is odd for my ear, strange connection... I mean refuge means somekind of escape (place) from war etc, "Shelter or protection from danger or distress" sais one dictionary. And as far I know this people (sámi) are not escaping nowdays atleast there are not any danger like war... (Mainly demanding the rights of native people in (culture)politics) --195.148.29.45 15:22, 30 November 2008 (EST)

Further subdivision?

Finnish Lapland is a quite big area geographically, and it does have quite many articles below it. Would it make sense to divide it further into maybe 3-4 subregions?

Something along the lines of: 1. "Sea Lapland and Torne River Valley" (how far north?), 2. "East Lapland" or "Southeast Lapland" (south and east of Rovaniemi, how far north?), 3. "North Lapland" or "Northeast Lapland" (Utsjoki and Inari municipalities at least), 4. "The Arm of Finland" (Enontekiö municipality, perhaps Muonio and Kittilä too). And then categorize the individual articles under these subarticles. What do you think? --Ypsilon (talk) 10:34, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

I think it makes sense to have Kolari and Kittilä join the arm, making it (North-)Western Lapland, as that would include the resorts around the Pallas-Yllästunturi National Park (some of which belong to the Kolari municipality). The North Lapland should probably include Sodankylä, part of which belongs to the Sámi native region, and Savukoski. Rovaniemi should probably be part of the South(-East) Lapland.

There are not too many real articles yet, but a subdivision might help in grasping the region. Perhaps one should just describe the subregions and group the municipalities in this article, but not create the subarticles before there is enough real content.

--LPfi (talk) 14:04, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Could make sense to start like that, thanks for the input.

In addition to grouping the articles, probably an "orientation" section (e.g. Mombasa#Orientation) describing the different parts of Lapland could be useful. --Ypsilon (talk) 05:56, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes. I suppose something like that is what I meant when I said that describing the subregions would be one first step. --LPfi (talk) 09:17, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Done Ypsilon (talk) 17:54, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

The subheadings in the intro was an odd solution. I removed the Climate heading from there (a second intro paragraph is no problem) and changed Orientation to a H2 Regions, as in Region article template/Large region template, which I hadn't noticed earlier. Also changed some other headings.

I think "Fell Lapland" is not the best name, as it is used in an other sense e.g. at the nationalparks.fi site (the border of it is said to cross the Pallas-Yllästunturi National Park). I'd go for a plain "Northwest" (and plunged forward).

--LPfi (talk) 07:07, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

I noticed the Enontekiö, Kittilä, Kolari and Muonio set is "officially" (?) called w:Tunturi Lapland. Of course there are mountains elsewhere in Lapland, but I tried to come up with some more exciting names than the cardinal directions whenever possible. --Ypsilon (talk) 07:22, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Hm, I understand. I am not totally convinced – the Nyland and Ostrobothnia regions (which exclude Eastern Nyland and a whole slot of Ostrobothnias) have made me doubt the naming procedures, which seem to allow regions and similar entities to monopolize names having a broader meaning. Also, some symmetry is a benefit. I have no firm opinion right now. --LPfi (talk) 07:55, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

There is now a lot of information in this article. I think it would be easier for readers to access the information if it were broken up into the four subregions. Ground Zero (talk) 02:24, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree – it would significantly help me when I visit this region in 2025, too. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 10:17, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

@LPfi: Ypsilon (talk) 10:25, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, now that there indeed are articles for all municipalities that might be true. I am making a try. –LPfi (talk) 10:43, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

By the way, I'm in the process of creating a new static map for this article – hang tight for a week (at max) and it'll be done. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 10:51, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

I now created South-east Lapland, Sea Lapland and Torne River Valley, North-east Lapland and North-west Lapland. They are not finished (some content could even be copied between them), feel free to copy, move or add content, images and whatever, I have to do other things now. Check and, if they seem acceptable, link from Finnish Lapland. (I had a weird edit conflict with the first one, with an empty diff; luckily the back button worked) –LPfi (talk) 15:19, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

I now linked the regions and cut down the number of cities and other destinations to 7+2 and 7+2+5 respectively. I have no idea about what ski resorts are important nowadays, nor how they compare to the national parks. Some places like Tankavaara and Sevettijärvi should probably be mentioned in See and do. The subregions still need development, both adding content and checking whether some is too redundant with this article. I have not looked at the bottom-level articles for things to mention, nor done research e.g. on transport, other than some quick checks. –LPfi (talk) 13:00, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Good job! They can use expansion but they're already better than most region articles. Ypsilon (talk) 13:40, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

It's Thursday now – sorry for the delay. I may have possibly bitten more than I can possibly chew by going literal overkill with the lakes. Other than that, it is almost done. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 10:36, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

@LPfi, Ypsilon, Ground Zero: I just finished the static map – it's not my favourite, maybe because I went overkill with the lakes, but also because it's a bit crowded for my liking (hence the lack of country labels). Did I miss anything important? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 12:25, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

:-)

Thanks!

I think country labels aren't that important, readers should know what countries there are around and the borders are clear.

There are airports in Kittilä and Ivalo. While they are small, they are quite important because of the distances. Also, both of those towns are larger than Hetta or Inari (which indeed are important). I would like markers also for Kolari and Kemijärvi (railheads) and perhaps Salla (with border crossing and some coach connections). A few E-road signs need to be moved for them to fit, but I think there is space for them.

–LPfi (talk) 14:25, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Great work! Yes, I'd say the major airports (Rovaniemi, Kittilä, Ivalo) could be marked, because air travel to Lapland is fairly common. Bus and train stations and ports are usually marked in city district maps but I don't remember seeing them in region maps.--Ypsilon (talk) 15:12, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

@LPfi, Ypsilon: Done the airports. The placement of the airport icon is less than ideal next to Rovaniemi, but I could not for the life of me find a better placement for Rovaniemi. I am still in the process of trying to find a way to add Salla and Ranua, but I should be finished with that by tonight UTC+10. If there's more room, then I'll add Kolari and Kemijärvi. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 00:20, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I lied – can't finish it tonight as I had some other things to do on my radar. I'll try to do it by Thursday. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:35, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

@LPfi, Ypsilon: Added the other towns mentioned, and fixed the border for consistency. Is there anything else that was missed? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 03:11, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

And I've also nominated the map on c:COM:QIC, for the record. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 03:13, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Looks nice. I think the map now has all key places and roads. Sodankylä's central location is clearly seen, while Kittilä, Ranua and Salla being without any shown roads shows that there are non-negligible connections along minor roads. The "empty" areas east of Sodankylä, south of Utsjoki and west of Hetta really are very sparsely populated. –LPfi (talk) 08:17, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

And the map is now a QI on Commons. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 06:13, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Nice! –LPfi (talk) 11:20, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

I now see that the key includes "motorway". However, I cannot see any on the map. Highway 4 (Finland) says the northernmost motorway in the world is between Kemi and Tornio, but even if it's there, I think the distance is too short to be discerned – or to be significant for the region. –LPfi (talk) 07:02, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

If you zoom in, it's marked, partially hidden underneath the markers (screenshot for reference). Although I too think it's subtle, it feels wrong to me to not include a label for it. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 07:17, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

:-)

–LPfi (talk) 09:12, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

One trick to make space for more info on static maps is to shrink stuff. In this case the dots marking the cities. That would make the motorway more visible. Ypsilon (talk) 08:36, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I am moving Pyhä and Pyhä-Luosto National Park from North-east Lapland to South-east Lapland, leaving Luosto in the former. The municipality and region border goes through the park. Most of the park is south of the border (only Luosto with surrounding north of it), and the north-east has Finland's two largest parks and the wilderness areas are all (or most?) in the two northern regions, so there is more competition about this kind of destinations there. I think it is nice for visitors to (Rovaniemi and) Kemijärvi to see these destinations in the same region. Was there some specific reason to put them in the northern region? –LPfi (talk) 13:16, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Coach companies, changes?

On fixing a dead Matkahuolto link in Kirkenes I noticed there were no more Eskelisen Lapin Linjat services to Utsjoki (this week at least), but a "Jbus" based in Sattanen, Sodankylä. Has there been other changes in the coach services in northern Lapland? Eskelinen (based in Rovaniemi; more or less the only coach company since Golden Lines disappeared) is mentioned all over the place, has something happened to them? –LPfi (talk) 12:12, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

They're apparently still in business, but according to the route map, the line along Highway 4 veers off at Kaamanen and goes to Karigasniemi and Norway. It's possible there have been services to Utsjoki during the summer that they've now updated the map for the lower seasons. --Ypsilon (talk) 10:30, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Matkahuolto (and Google Maps) say there is a bus service to Utsjoki from Ivalo (change in Ivalo if you come from Rovaniemi), but they don't tell what bus company operates the route. --Ypsilon (talk) 10:36, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

If you click the small "info" link and then the "Vuoron lisätiedot" one, you get that information. For me it says Eskelisen Lapin Linjat to Ivalo and then Jbus (using your links and then those). The transfer seems to be smooth (10 min at Matkahuolto). –LPfi (talk) 10:49, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Status

I think this page per se is well-enough developed to be guide. Of the linked destinations, Utsjoki is outline (and I think it shouldn't be exchanged for another) as are Suomu (which hardly is important), Riisitunturi National Park (which is nice to include) and Pallas-Yllästunturi National Park (which is the most popular in Finland). Bothnian Bay National Park doesn't have an article, but I think it should be included, as the only national park in the Sea Lapland and Torne River Valley and a different thing from most of Lapland (although, I assume, a rare destination). Pallas-Ylläs keeps its region from being usable, while Torne River Valley needs checking the coach connections along the river; I promoted the rest of the subregions.

So, I think that if we get Pallas-Ylläs and Riisitunturi to usable, getting this to guide would not require much work.

–LPfi (talk) 21:16, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Coaches and buses for Sea Lapland and Torne River Valley are now fixed and Pello is promoted to usable. Thus I promoted also the region. For Finnish Lapland to be guide, we still need Utsjoki, Suomu, Riisitunturi National Park, Pallas-Yllästunturi National Park and Bothnian Bay National Park to get to usable. Suomu could be removed if we want to have the other destinations to be 7±2 (instead of 9+6); I would like to keep the rest of these, which means they need to be usable. –LPfi (talk) 14:20, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Riisutunturi promoted (it already had everything needed, I expanded it a bit anyway). Pallas-Ylläs needs "attractions" pointed out (Metsähallitus pages could be used), otherwise it is quite well-developed, I think. Suomu isn't worth including here, too little information present and not an important destination. Utsjoki seems to be usable alright. Enontekiö promoted (although not mentioned here as region, city or other destination). So Pallas and Bothnian Bay left. –LPfi (talk) 19:39, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Other destinations

@LPfi, Ypsilon: I noticed there are 15 ODs, violating WV:7±2. Which ones should be removed? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 10:25, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh, Lapland was subdivided after all and not a botton-level region. I'd delete the three somewhat less famous ski resorts Pyhä, Luosto and Suomu. Of the national parks, I'd definitely keep the Bothnian Bay as it is much different from the others. Riisitunturi and Muotkatunturit are perhaps the least famous of the parks so they could go. And Pallas-Yllästunturi is already represented by the Ylläs ski resort, so it would be the third to be deleted. This would leave us with six national parks and three ski resorts, ie. nine other destinations (7+2). --Ypsilon (talk) 15:23, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like a solid plan to me. I also agree that Botnian Bay + UKK should stay. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 22:40, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

I think Pallas-Yllästunturi is the national park with most visitors and it's the one with best services, so skipping it doesn't sound too good. Those looking for national parks aren't necessarily checking the ski resort links, so the Ylläs and Äkäslompolo listing doesn't help much.

I suppose Äkäs, Levi and Saariselkä are the major ski resorts, so probably should be left (even if Ylläs and Äkäs now has no info in their listing), unless we handle them in See and do instead (I don't know whether that would be against our practices). We should probably regardless improve directions on where you find different things in Regions and See and do, which could help find unlisted destinations.

Lemmenjoki, although the largest (I think) is not that popular and mentioned in many places because of the gold digging grounds. It is one of the places where visitors routinely take a river boat, which makes the experience special. I think Pallas-Ylläs is more important. Oulanka is hard to reach; while it has the famous and popular Karhunkierros, I don't know how popular it is otherwise.

–LPfi (talk) 07:24, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

In that case we should delete either Lemmenjoki or Oulanka instead of Pallas-Ylläs National Park. Maybe Oulanka, as it's already mentioned in the Kainuu and Eastern Oulu region article. I think the three ski resorts are together with Ruka, Himos and Tahko further south the most famous/popular ones in the country, and if we were to delete more ski resorts to make room for national parks the Other destinations section would be too heavy on the latter. Ypsilon (talk) 07:44, 29 April 2024 (UTC)