Talk:Russian Empire

Churchill quote

It's a great quote, but I think we should delete it, because it obviously refers to the Soviets and not the Russian Empire. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:10, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

3 years later, I feel just as strongly about this. Should I plunge forward and remove it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:45, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

I guess that Churchill, who grew up during the era of the Russian Empire, might have expressed a mystified idea of Russia in general and not only the Soviets. But just to be safe I plunged forward and changed it to an equally famous quote by the Slavophile poet and statesman Fyodor Tyutchev. Said in 1866, it unambiguously refer to pre-Soviet Russia, but it is also a great example of the Slavophile ideas mentioned in the main text. MartinJacobson (talk) 10:46, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm seeing a quote by Pushkin. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:16, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

special:diff/3778817 - I replaced the quote because we are already using it in Russia. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 19:22, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

I'll justify the quote here as Martin did - Pushkin had known Decembrist sympathies and the poem the quote is from was written as a letter to one of the leading "Westernizer" figures. Just as applicable, I think. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 19:32, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that the Tyutchev quote was already used elsewhere! But the Pushkin quote works fine as well! MartinJacobson (talk) 21:05, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm OK with it. It sounds more of a death knell than a celebration of Czarism, but the Czars were in general horrible and certainly in the 19th century, the archenemies of my people, so I have no dispute with that. And of course Pushkin was a great figure during the time of the Czars. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:24, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Westernisation

Should this be moderated in some way:

This policy of westernization was abruptly put to an end by the French revolution of 1789 and the failed Decembrist revolt of 1825. . These reminded the rulers of Russia that the enlightenment ideas of the west could also be very dangerous to an absolute monarch. The Russian rulers thus turned to a more reactionary direction, and thereby came into conflict with the enlightenment ideals of the intelligentsia, creating a rift which would last until the revolutions of 1917.

I have understood that Alexander I and some others of the emperors would use Finland and its western traditions to help in further westernisation after 1809. The Finnish did not have ties to the Russian nobles, and thus were less prone to corruption and conspiracies, but I don't think this was the only reason for using them. I think a "controlled" westernisation was still the goal.

--LPfi (talk) 10:35, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

I just rewrote the section, but I'm not sure if it addresses this issue satisfactory. The situation is a bit difficult to present briefly without oversimplifying. Essentially, the early reign of Catherine the Great was liberal and "enlightened", but toughened up after the French revolution. Similarly, the reign of Alexander I started as more liberal, but after the Napoleonic wars he teamed up with Austria and Prussia in "the Holy Alliance", to suppress liberals, secularists and nationalists. The reign of Nikolaj I, which was initiated with the failed Decembrist revolts of 1825, was notoriously repressive, from start to finish. As Alexander II ascended the throne many hoped for a more liberal rule, and he did liberate the serfs in 1861. During the latter part of the 19th century, and the reign of Alexander III and the "grey eminence" Konstantin Pobedonostsev, the regime once more become increasingly reactionary.

As you might see there is a pendulum movement between reaction and reform, but compared to the enlightenment rule of the 18th century, it is an era of increasing reaction. Hopefully, the current text underscores that the regime got increasingly repressive over time, but also that they went from being univocally pro-westernization in the 18th century, to a much move ambivalent attitude in the 19th century. To make it even more complicated, many rulers wanted westernization in some areas (such as military technology), but not in others. MartinJacobson (talk) 07:03, 13 May 2019 (UTC)